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Old 09-02-2007, 12:24 PM   #1
sa meredith
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Default Boat Sinking?????

I read a small piece in the local paper this morning (The Eagle Tribune, out of North Andover MA) that a boat out of Windham, NH completely sank on lake Winni yesterday. 8 people on board, all survived, no injuries reported. Few details, other than to say the boat was a Cobalt and was "a good size bow rider", incident occured at approx. 11:30 AM, and was caused by a swell that filled the bow, and the boat contined to take on water. Story goes on to say the boat came to rest in 100 feet of water and was being recovered today...

Wondering if anyone witnessed this event and has more details...
Was the lake THAT ROUGH yesterday??? I was up on Thursday, and cruised from Paugus Bay to Wolfeboro and never saw so much as a single swell of any size....smooth the whole way.
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Old 09-02-2007, 12:44 PM   #2
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Default It was breezy....

Came back from breakfast and food shopping in Wolfeboro around that time and saw two small sailboats capsized within a 1/4 mile of each other -- one already had a jetski and another boat assisting. The other was over near Parker Island. We stopped by him to see if he wanted assistance but he didn't.

There were 3 ft rollers out there, but I wouldn't call the conditions extreme by any means. Been in much worse on the Broads. Does require some patience and experience to manage those conditions. Glad no one was hurt.
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Old 09-02-2007, 01:29 PM   #3
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Default

The same story was in the Citizen today...

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...043/-1/CITIZEN

Winds at Black Cat yesterday were averaging 6 mph gusting to 15 mph at the time, which was the windiest observation of the day. The wind direction was from the Northwest, blowing down the lake toward Rattlesnake where it occurred, so it's safe to assume the wind could have doubled in speed over open water by the time it got there. Wave heights here were about 1-1.5 feet, with whitecaps. Again, they would've gained some height by the time they got down to Rattlesnake.

They were lucky the hot and humid weather came back long enough to raise up the water temp back to the mid-70s. In the cold spell of last month it dropped into the upper 60s.
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Old 09-02-2007, 05:28 PM   #4
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Wind being blown over the surface of water (from Black Cat to Rattlesnake) will NOT speed up over a long distance.

According to iwindsurf.com, the wind at 11am Satruday in Laconia averaged 13mph with puffs (gusts) to 26mph out of the WSW. Those kinds of winds can produce occasional 3-5 foot waves (with whitecaps).

Since one poster witnessed two boats capsized at the same time*, it should be safe to assume that the wind was very gusty. When the wind is gusty, the waves created by those gusts are much closer together (more dangerous).
Although not the most pleasant ride, a 20+ footer should be able to survive those conditions. Obviously, this Cobalt wasn't.

There were also 8 people in the boat. Depending on the size, it may have been close to being overloaded.

I don't have an opinion yet, but I bet the final verdict will be inexperience for the conditions by the skipper of the boat.

APS, were you out sailing on Saturday? Perhaps you would know what the conditions were like?

*On a side note, if anyone sees a small boat capsized (~15 feet), they most likely know exactly what they are doing, and you should STAY AWAY at least 50 feet in all directions unless they are making it obvious that they need help. Too many stories of ripped sails and props tangled up in rigging.
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Old 09-02-2007, 05:48 PM   #5
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Remember, its Labor Day Weekend, everyone leaves their common sense at home
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Old 09-02-2007, 06:50 PM   #6
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I wonder if there were alot of passengers in the seats located in the bow of this bowrider. It always make me concerned to see the bow on bowridera loaded up with passengers, as I think it would be easy to dunk the bow when overloaded. Overloaded in the bow plus good sized swells = trouble.

I also thought all boats built after 1971 were required to contain flotation enough to keep them from going to the bottom.
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Old 09-02-2007, 07:36 PM   #7
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Default Bowrider

Hi All,
If anyone has info on whether or the boat has actually been located please post for me here on the Forum or send me an email-I'd be interested in scannng for it-also info on its whereabouts of course; Rattlesnake is huge and after the side-scan work I did last year off Rattlesnake looking for Fred Surrette I know exactly how deep it can be around there;

The Eagle Tribune reports "...the Bowrider was being pulled to the surface to make sure the accident wasn't caused by a structural problem..."; They called it a Cobalt;
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Old 09-02-2007, 07:53 PM   #8
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We went up on the Broad's side of Rattlesnake today around 11AM or so. Saw a couple of Sea Tow boats near the Eastern tip. Maybe that's where it went down?

We were also out for a bit yesterday though not near that area. We anchored behind Timber Island for a couple hours and found the ride back to the Weirs very choppy from the wind.

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Old 09-02-2007, 07:58 PM   #9
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Default My feeling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diver1111

The Eagle Tribune reports "...the Bowrider was being pulled to the surface to make sure the accident wasn't caused by a structural problem..."; They called it a Cobalt;
I can't imagine there wasn't a structural problem.... Boats are designed.... or a least used to be designed with enough flotation so that even full of water they would not completely sink. Kind of a safty feature.... now if there is a breach in the hull and water gets into what is supposed a dry cavity then you have a problem.....

Have Boat designers abandoned the principles of old?

Now knowing how deep the water is over by Rattlesnake I can't imagine recovery is going to be a simple task......
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Old 09-02-2007, 08:04 PM   #10
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Cobalt Boats doesn't exactly make poor quality boats. Also, I believe an above poster is right: even full of water, the hull would still have enough positive buoyancy to stay at or just below the surface. I hadn't thought of that.

Maybe it was a case of attempted insurance fraud? It IS one of the deepest parts of the lake....
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Old 09-02-2007, 08:44 PM   #11
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Default I'll set the record straight

Winnipesaukee...You're an **** and I expect a full written apology for your stupid and inconsiderate words.

I was on that boat with the other family. If you think we'd risk our kid's and wive's lives for the insurance, you're even stupider than most of your posts. The boat was a 6 hour old Cobalt 246. (A leftover from Thurstons) and it was definately an issue with the boat. It is rated for 15 people. The 4 kids weigh around 100 lbs or less.

The boat suffered a catostrophic failure (of the hull, something not tightened or something, We'll only know when it is recovered). I've logged 200 hours in the past three years on Winnipesaukee and while the waves weren't calm, I've seen worse.

Someday, I'll write the full story of what happened and how some kind people came to our aid. The comments made by a few idiots in this forum made me too angry to do that at this time.

Note: If your Cobalt fills with water, it may sink fast just like this one did. As the skipper's daughter said....just like the Titanic.

On positive buoyancy.....Government regulations and Cobalt only provide positive buoyancy up to 21 feet. (So says Thurston's staff when we asked them at the urging of Marine Patrol)
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Old 09-02-2007, 09:30 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee
Wind being blown over the surface of water (from Black Cat to Rattlesnake) will NOT speed up over a long distance.

According to iwindsurf.com, the wind at 11am Satruday in Laconia averaged 13mph with puffs (gusts) to 26mph out of the WSW. Those kinds of winds can produce occasional 3-5 foot waves (with whitecaps).
Laconia and anywhere on the lake's NW-SE runway that is the longest, straightest part of the MOUNT's route experience very different weather at times. This can include large discrepancies in wind speed and direction as well as temperature. It can be a different world out here. (see thread called "I've never seen the lake like this.")

To illustrate this, last week there was a day when the wind howled straight up the lake all afternoon - from Rattlesnake to Black Cat - with 3 foot waves crashing up on the shore as I watched. The wind here was 18 mph gusting to 26, and at the same time the wind was not more than 7 mph at Laconia or Plymouth... on Mount Washington's summit the wind was just 3 mph at the time. If I wasn't physically here I might've thought my instruments were misreading. However, considering that I was watching my stuff starting to blow off the dock and a few leafy twigs fly past the kitchen window, I would say probably not. Just to be sure I checked those other stations again - they were all current, all reporting light winds.

Local topography has a huge effect on weather, including the bending of wind direction to its liking. It's one of the reasons the computer models have such a hard time with New England's weather - so many dominant wind directions, so much topography, not enough disk space for numbers to accurately represent it all.

Open water may not speed wind up - trees and dirt and mountains slow wind down. From here to Rattlesnake is 10 miles, straight shot. For an inland area, that's a long way for wind to go without hitting any obstructions.
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Old 09-02-2007, 10:11 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boat_guy64
Winnipesaukee...You're an **** and I expect a full written apology for your stupid and inconsiderate words....

...you're even stupider than most of your posts...

...a few idiots in this forum .

I expect a written apology for your blatant disrespect on this public, family forum and will be writing the Webmaster regarding your outburst. My comment was semi-sarcastic, as we on this forum know niether many of the facts, nor who it was who sunk the boat, and our comments were just based on the little information we had.

Under other circumstances, I'd write my opinion on how a new boat should never experience a "catastrophic failure," and that it is the responsibility of the skipper to inspect his boat before shoving off, but feel that would enrage you further, so I digress.

Enough of that.

Canis, regarding the wind, you are absolutely right. Winds can be very different on different parts of the lake because of the topography. A fine example of this is a section of the Columbia River called "The Gorge." It has canyon walls on both sides, and commonly, the pressure on each side is different, creating wind, which is channeled between the rocks. So if you are standing on the top of the canyon, the wind might only be 10 knots, but at the bottom on the water it might be 30. The sailing is amazing there.

Wind is a very tricky thing. I don't know where your wind meter is set up, but on many, there may be errors due to wind shadows (if you house is east of the meter and the wind happens to be coming from the east, the house may block the wind from the meter.) The general rule of thumb is if something is blocking wind, a meter must be 4 object-heights away from it to get "clean air." So if a house is 10 feet tall, the meter must be 40 feet away.

Okay. Enough wind talk.
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Old 09-02-2007, 11:03 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee
I expect a written apology for your blatant disrespect on this public, family forum and will be writing the Webmaster regarding your outburst. My comment was semi-sarcastic, as we on this forum know niether many of the facts, nor who it was who sunk the boat, and our comments were just based on the little information we had.

Under other circumstances, I'd write my opinion on how a new boat should never experience a "catastrophic failure," and that it is the responsibility of the skipper to inspect his boat before shoving off, but feel that would enrage you further, so I digress.

Enough of that.
If you were 10% as knowledgeable as you think, you would be aware of this article.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee
Maybe it was a case of attempted insurance fraud? It IS one of the deepest parts of the lake....
Knowing that four children were involved and making your comment would definitely make you the south end of a north bound horse.

The answer to a new boat should never experience a "catastrophic failure" is a good law firm.
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Old 09-02-2007, 11:43 PM   #15
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"Wow" this has gotten sort of ugly. I don't mean to touch any nerves here, but could it be possible (as I have seen what I am about to suggest first hand) that someone forgot to "tighten" the drain plug before launching? I know it sounds like boating 101, but mistakes can and do happen.
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Old 09-03-2007, 12:11 AM   #16
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edit: nevermind. Incorrect math.

Whatever the reason, there is now up to 70 gallons of gasoline in the Lake...
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Old 09-03-2007, 04:15 AM   #17
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by boat_guy_64
"...Note: If your Cobalt fills with water, it may sink fast just like this one did. As the skipper's daughter said....just like the Titanic...On positive buoyancy.....Government regulations and Cobalt only provide positive buoyancy up to 21 feet. (So says Thurston's staff when we asked them at the urging of Marine Patrol)..."
The "Extreme Boat" websites all urge that Internet disclosures of boating incidents—such as yours—shouldn't be made. Websites are checked by insurance company lawyers for consistency in witness' testimony.

It's good advice, IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee
"...APS, were you out sailing on Saturday? Perhaps you would know what the conditions were like...?"
The wind was too blustery to risk a capsize on a weekend.

I watched cruising sailboats twice my boat's size turn around and go home. My good buddy across the harbor sailed up to my dock—didn't attempt to stop—and scooted back home in his oceanworthy ~24-foot Cape Dory Typhoon.

Like most lakes, the winds were just too inconsistent: as CLA states, topography rules on lakes.

Sometimes I miss the smooth consistency of ocean breezes, but at least lakeside, I can "pick my days" for an enjoyable sailing day.
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Old 09-03-2007, 07:53 AM   #18
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boat guy 64,
Glad you and your family are OK. I am not sure I would have been clear headed enough to make my response g rated as you did. When a brand new boat has a catastrophic failure, I have to bet on the probability it was not something the new owners did wrong. It will be interesting to see what went so terribly wrong.

Again. First and foremost we are glad everyone is OK.
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Old 09-03-2007, 08:02 AM   #19
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Default I second this post!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy
boat guy 64,
Glad you and your family are OK. I am not sure I would have been clear headed enough to make my response g rated as you did. When a brand new boat has a catastrophic failure, I have to bet on the probability it was not something the new owners did wrong. It will be interesting to see what went so terribly wrong.
First and foremost we should all be glad everyone is OK.

RG is correct... let the experts figure out the reason.. while we all celebrate the fact that all are safe. Cudos to the folks that stopped and helped..

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...043/-1/CITIZEN
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Old 09-03-2007, 08:14 AM   #20
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So is that what we saw yesterday red buoys and two boats? At first we thought it had to do with the sailboat race, then thought someone must be diving as the tow boat had a diver's flag on it. It is so deep there, I wonder if they will find it?
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Old 09-03-2007, 09:28 AM   #21
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Default wow!

As the starter of this thread, I never thought we would actually hear from someone who was in the boat.
Boat guy64...that must of been a terrible thing to experience. As a new boater (4 years) I can't begin to imagine what it would be like at the moment you realize the boat is taking on water. Tragic. Glad everyone is OK.
"Winnipasaukee"...I gotta say, I think you are an ***hole. INSURANCE FRAUD????!!!!! With 8 people on board, including children? And not knowing all the facts? I found your first posting odd as well...something about "overloaded". At that point, noone knew the size of the boat. We did know, however, that all eight people had quick access to their life vest. That should have been a clue that the captain had a good sense of responsibility. You actually wrote "I bet the final verdict will have something to do with inexperience by the skipper...." How dare you? Gather the facts first...as I tried to do when I started the thread. You are a jerk!
Lastly, you write..."whatever he case, there is now 70 gallons of gas in the lake" decent point, but how about wishing well to the 2 families who were on the boat. By the way, an apology is certainly due from you.
People could have died thru no fault of their own...
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Old 09-03-2007, 09:28 AM   #22
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Post Cobalt Sinking

This was the view yesterday off Rattlesnake Is. of the search for the sunk Cobalt. I am very glad everyone survived and I thank the boater(s) who came to the peoples rescue. I am waiting to hear what caused the sinking.

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Old 09-03-2007, 11:48 AM   #23
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Default Good advice

Acres,

Good advice. I'll take it. Everyone is safe and that is all that matters. Everything else is trivial.

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Old 09-03-2007, 01:23 PM   #24
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Default Floatation

As a point of information, the Coast Guard, whose responsibilty it is to set standards by which boats are built, does not specify any flotation requirements boats twenty feet in length or longer.

I am not saying none will, but it would be a risky assumption for anyone in a boat twenty feet long or longer to assume that the boat will remain afloat as it will, most likely, not.

Our part time marine patrol officers should be aware of this fact.

http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/bo...on/183-101.htm

http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/bo...on/183-201.htm
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Old 09-03-2007, 01:30 PM   #25
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boat_guy64:

As someone who just purchased a new Cobalt 232 from Thurstons about a month ago, I'd be interested in their reaction and how they're helping or not helping in this situation.

I got the full "when you buy from us, your part of our family" story from Thurstons along with the "You pay more because Cobalt is the best made boat on the water today" sales pitch. Now I'm starting to wonder...

We watched the boat sink (from our place on Rattlesnake Island) in what couldn't have been more that 10 seconds. It was incredible how fast it went under -- and reinforces how little time you have when something like that happens.

Glad you and all involved are safe and sound.
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Old 09-03-2007, 02:09 PM   #26
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Default Scary

I can not even imagine the terror that the kids must have felt let alone the parents. I am so glad and relieved to hear that everyone is ok. So to throw salt in the wound "Winnipesaukee" claims you were at fault for not inspecting the boat beforehand?????? Wow what a nerve. Next time any of you all go boating you should have the boat lifted for full hull inspection Imagine the lines at the marinas????

I am sure I am not alone in awaiting the results of the investigation and what Thurston's/Cobalt does to "make it right."
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Old 09-03-2007, 02:35 PM   #27
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I would bet on a failure in the drive booting rather than the hull. Cobalt is a tough boat.
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Old 09-03-2007, 03:01 PM   #28
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Default Look...

I didn't mean for my comment to offend anyone. That was not my intention, and if it did, it came out wrong and I take it back. And I am, of course, glad that everyone is alright. I didn't really expect that one of the people who sunk the boat would sign on and explain the situation. I am not happy with, however, the disgusting language used on this thread. It is highly offensive. Also, I guess the Webmaster doesn't accept PMs, so I don't exactly know how to get in contact with him...

With that being said, I do believe it is indeed the skipper's responsibility to inspect his boat prior to shoving off, especially on its maiden voyage (caveat emptor). It is one of the fundamental rules of seamanship and am sticking with it. Feel free to disagree.

I don't think I'll be posting anymore on this issue until we see some sort of definitive investigation report.
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Old 09-03-2007, 03:11 PM   #29
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Default Accident

boat guy 64: I am happy that all made it through this very unfortunate experience. The adults on board had to be doing the right things to keep the children safe.

winnipesaukee: My opinion is that you are the person that should be rethinking your posting style. Without any facts or direct knowledge, you find blame. Wow!

Thank GOD all are safe.

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Old 09-03-2007, 03:15 PM   #30
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Default or perhaps...

Maybe, the webmaster agrees with us????????
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Old 09-03-2007, 03:24 PM   #31
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Default His rules do not.

His rules do not.

Quote:
Be Polite

Always show courtesy and respect, even when you strongly disagree with another person.

...

If you don't agree with something expressed on the Forum respond with your opinion, don't get personal! Your comments and opinions are welcome, personal attacks, insults or flames are not.
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Old 09-03-2007, 03:31 PM   #32
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Default Courtesy and Respect

"Overloaded the boat" "Inexperience by the skipper" "Insurance fraud"
I'm curious...which of these three are "courtesy" and which are "respect"?
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Old 09-03-2007, 03:57 PM   #33
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Default Thank Goodness

Boat_Guy64, I can't imagine what the feeling must have been like out there having the boat sink. But I am glad that everyone is ok. And I hope you are all able to get back on the water and enjoy it soon.....And if anyone of the rescuers are out there.... thank for you efforts in keeping both families safe.

To Boat_guy64 and others who posted the further information on positive floatation, thank you... it was very informative.... I never stopped to think that there might be a size limitation on that. Although after and incident like this I wonder if it is something that needs to be readdressed buy the coast guard and boat manufactures....

Winnipesaukee... like others I was not humored by your remarks.... your original remarks where bad enough..... but adding insult to injury by then bringing up things like the gasoline that is now in the lake... Come on man.... the fuel will disipate and take care of itself.... the important thing is the people because the people can't be replaced......

Like everyone else I will be keep tabs on this I am curious as to what happened to the boat.... And Boat_guy64 if your able to share more with us that would be great.... but don't feel as though you need to you and your family have been through enough.......
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Old 09-03-2007, 05:17 PM   #34
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Default Cobalt sinking

I purchased a 25 foot Cobalt with a cuddy cabin over ten years ago. After purchasing the boat, I remember seeing a video of a Boston Whaler that remained floating after an accident due to the amount of floatation build into the boat.

I became curious and called the Cobalt factory and asked them about any build in floatation and what would happen if an accident seriously breached the hull in my boat.

A very sobering answer was given. The boat would sink.
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Old 09-03-2007, 05:38 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee
I expect a written apology for your blatant disrespect on this public, family forum and will be writing the Webmaster regarding your outburst.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee
I don't think I'll be posting anymore on this issue until we see some sort of definitive investigation report.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee
I hope to get proficient enough with the T to race it in the Statue of Liberty Race and represent the lake with "Lake Winnipesaukee, NH" in vinyl on each side, under the name (which I still can't decide on).
I would prefer that the Lake not be represented by the south end of a north bound horse.

Also, try being proficient in apologizing.
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Old 09-03-2007, 06:19 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee
I didn't really expect that one of the people who sunk the boat would sign on and explain the situation. .
Humm... seems like you really mean... "I assumed that noone was going to be able to provide the facts from an eyewitness point of view." I'm sure you know the old adage about ASSUME... ( I won't go into the meaning so as not to offend anyone..)

I took the time to look over your previous posts... and you seem like a good guy.. rather than trying to justify your comments with a complaint about the webmaster or the words used by boatguy64.. maybe you should be sure you know what's really going on before you post. Just advice from an old guy... take it or leave it.

Relax... this is fun group... and a group that pulls together when something bad happens in the place we all love. Plenty of time for the "experts" to figure out what happened... your not one of the experts, neither am I... so show support and celebrate the fact that 4 kids and 4 adults are still with us today.

Give credit to Boatguy for having the equiptment onboard that saved those people..

PS I send this with full knowledge that "Free Advice is usually worth what you pay for it! "
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Old 09-03-2007, 06:56 PM   #37
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Arrow Example of the Lake on Saturday

My wife and I were out on the Sea Que Saturday. Around 11:45AM I turned on the VHF and scanner I heard the tail end of "something" off of Rattlesnake. Now I know what it was. We were out in an area bounded by Welch Island, Diamond I and Sandy Island starting around noon. The waves were wind driven and it was pretty choppy. Around 1:30 we headed to the Weirs and saw a fair number of boats on the way. Near the tip of Gov I near Weirs Bay we noted these fishermen in the low boat and tried to get a picture to show the size of the waves vs their boat.




Large version of this shot

Off to their right (out of this shot) was a boat pulling a tube.

Very glad that no one was hurt in the sinking by Rattlesnake.
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Old 09-03-2007, 07:14 PM   #38
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Great sailing weather.
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Old 09-03-2007, 07:49 PM   #39
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I'm glad no one was hurt. One big reason is that they all had life jackets.

When there's steady wind from anywhere near north, the wind comes down the broads and builds up some serious waves between Parker and Rattlesnake. I've made that crossing in bow rider before and it can be very scary. One wave a little bigger than you expect can make life interesting. Now add any kind of a mechanical problem on top of that, and things can get real bad in a hurry.

I've had bad weather and I've had mechnical problems, luckily I never had both at the same time.
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Old 09-03-2007, 08:12 PM   #40
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Default Zillions of boats

I was coming from Wolfboro to circle Rattlesnake around 2:00pm yesterday, and while the water was rough, it certainly wasn't as bad as I'd seen before. I didn't really think the wind was bad. But, what caught my attention was the number of boats on the water. I don't believe I have ever seen so many boats, especially big cruisers, on the water before at the same time. Incredible. I attributed most of the wave action to that.
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Old 09-03-2007, 08:25 PM   #41
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Default Has the boat been retreived??

Has the boat been retreived?? Glad all are ok!!
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Old 09-03-2007, 09:24 PM   #42
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Winnipesaukee:

I just read this thread. You were dead wrong. You subsequently acknowledged this in one of your last posts, but stopped short of apologizing to boat guy 64. You still owe him an apology. I think everyone on the board would think better of you if you apologized.

The variations on the lake are amazing. I was off the past two weeks and went out 3 or 4 days when there was absolutely no chop on the water. Wonderful conditions to say the least. I staid in this weekend due to the crowds and the 10-15MPH winds called for on the weather channel. Sounds like I made the right call.
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Old 09-04-2007, 04:46 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveA
"...I took the time to look over your previous posts... and you seem like a good guy...maybe you should be sure you know what's really going on before you post. Just advice from an old guy..."
As one who has actually met—and worked with—new member Winnipesaukee, I can say that you've suggested part of the issue.

Members here can be twice, three times, and even four times+ his age. He does instruct sailboating, which requires much new knowledge and skills beyond powerboating. He's the only person I know who can tie the difficult bowline knot using just one hand! (This, after my clever demonstration of tying a bowline behind my back).

Because forums are a proper place for opinions, I've let many of our posters' comments go—such as how dangerous it is to use one's seat belts, that sunken snowmobiles are harmful to the environment (duh), or that the smaller powerboat at Long Lake was underway and driven into its final destiny.

Maybe one "should know what's going on before you post". But like the majority of headlines regarding "Big Lake" events, we are kept guessing for weeks—sometimes we never know. While fraud was an over-reach, speculation could disclose support for the final story.

Most of us, I'm sure, are surprised that some brand new powerboats over 21' could sink completely out of sight; however, even that revelation wasn't supported by a reference source, and remains speculative—IMHO.
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Old 09-04-2007, 02:45 PM   #44
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Default boat capsizing

I also am glad that all were safe. I can recall in New London Harbor (CT) one summer while teasing my daughter who was sitting in the bow of my bow rider, I decided to get her sprayed. I picked on one wave larger than needed and that wave came over the bow, and over the windshield. To say she got sprayed was too say the least. The water just about filled my boat, I had a large McDonalds cup, and that is what I used to bail the boat. Someone said something about seeing water coming in I will tell you it is scarey and I did not ever pull that joke again.
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Old 09-04-2007, 02:53 PM   #45
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Thanks APS.

I just want to make one thing clear: the comment was a joke. Yes, I guess I didn't really think too much before I posted, and had I known that the actual person who sunk the boat was a member here, I would never have posted it as it was not aimed toward him, but "nobody," as I didn't know who the boater was. Additionally, this was a huge screw-up on my part, but I missed the fact that there were children onboard. My mistake. I feel bad that I touched nerves when that was not my intention.

And as I have posted earlier, I am glad that everyone came out unharmed and that is ultimately the most important issue.

Now, with that being said, I feel there are other issues that need to be addressed, and if we can take these seriously and with a degree of maturity, that would be appreciated. I will try to be politically correct as possible...

-The Cobalt, according to witnesses, was out by Rattlesnake Island and sank. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only two "holes" below the waterline on the average 24-footer are the drain plug, and the lower unit cutout. In my opinion, the problem could not have been something to do with the lower unit cutout because, according to the Cobalt website,
Quote:
...And so every Cobalt undergoes a full half-hour of running under maximum load in the test tank, with well more than 30 checks of its systems completed. Boats are pulled at random from the production line for a trip to the lake for rigorous testing under real-world conditions...
If the cutout was leaking, it would almost certainly have been discovered during the test.

That leaves the drain plug being out or "not tightened or something." This seems to be the theory that I (with the information I have available) believe. If this is true (I am NOT saying it is, we'll only know for sure when the boat is inspected), then in my opinion, the blame is to lay on the skipper of the boat; this is even more so if the boat was trailered and launched (but we don't know the launching situation).

But we will only know for sure when the boat is recovered.

-The other issue is the gasoline that has been spilled into the lake. I do not know if it will all evaporate like a previous poster said, but even if it does, it must travel to the surface (as it is lighter than water). On the way up, flow of water will spread it out over a fairly large distance, which isn't exactly healthy for the Lake and its surroundings. It will harm the lake; that is why there are such big civil and criminal charges. The issue is the pollution, cleanup, and, in my mind, the most important: future prevention.
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Old 09-04-2007, 03:10 PM   #46
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As it was a brand new boat purchased at a marina on the lake, it was most likely already in the water when the owner took possession. If there was a problem, marina staff should have found it IMO. Drain plugs, torn boot, whatever, should have been spotted, if that was indeed the cause.

Of course all we are doing is speculating on possible causes. I am sure there will be some sort of investigation to determine the actual cause of the sinking, and of course it is possible that no cause is positively identified.
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Old 09-04-2007, 03:56 PM   #47
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The issue of the cutout leaking is sufficiently addressed in Winnipesaukee's post. Pretty unlikely. However, new boats are shipped with the drive units separate and they require assembly at the dealership. Part of that assembly is the bellows. If that should come apart or tear, you have a big leak that can overwhelm the best bilge pump. I would put money there.

Another remote possibility is a cooling system connection failure which could pump lots of water into the bilge in a short period of time.

Still, I am betting on the bellows.
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Old 09-04-2007, 04:09 PM   #48
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Default bellows...

If I had to guess, I would agree with the bellows being the issue. Upon finding out about this boat sinking, I did a bit of research, and found that the leading cause of boats with I/O engines sinking is trouble with the bellows.
The article stated that many boat owners fail to check them from time to time, and their "self life" is five years...need to be changed after that and many people don't do it. With this boat being brand new, I'm wondering if it is possible that they were not installed properly. Also, I guess they could be damaged from debris in the water. I guess we will know when the boat is recovered (has it been recovered yet?).
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Old 09-04-2007, 04:24 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee
Thanks APS.

-The other issue is the gasoline that has been spilled into the lake. I do not know if it will all evaporate like a previous poster said, but even if it does, it must travel to the surface (as it is lighter than water). On the way up, flow of water will spread it out over a fairly large distance, which isn't exactly healthy for the Lake and its surroundings. It will harm the lake; that is why there are such big civil and criminal charges. The issue is the pollution, cleanup, and, in my mind, the most important: future prevention.
Would most of the gas remain in the tank of a modern boat? Most I know of have an O-ring or seal on the gas cap so that just leaves the small vent.
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Old 09-04-2007, 04:33 PM   #50
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Default speculation...

The 2006 VP 5.7L engines (likely what the Cobalt was running) had a recall on the accessory drive belt for squealing. I have this powerplant in my 2006 Cobalt - so i know. Rather than trailer the boat back to MA for warranty repair, i had the dealer give me the replacement design belt (the original squeaky one was grooved, the replacement one was "gator backed" - if anyone wnts to know the difference). I figured i'd change it myself.

Well - the big 2" coolant hose going to the waterpump has to be removed to change this belt. I found out the hard way that this connection is below the waterline... When i pulled this hose, water gushed in, and judging from the flow it would have exceeded the capacity of the bilge pump. I was on the dock, so I just reconnected the hose.

If the dealer did this belt recall for the new owner prior to the delivery, maybe the hose clamp was not installed or tightened? I can't see the boat making it from Thurstons to Rattlesnake without overheating if the hose wasn't connected at all, but if it popped off while underway due to the combination of heavy waves and failure to clamp, well...

ps Cobalt insists that the dealer conduct an in-water test with the customer prior to delivery, so i can't see the problem as something too simple or obvious like a missing plug or missing bellows...

Last edited by TomC; 09-04-2007 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 09-04-2007, 04:54 PM   #51
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Default makes sense...

TomC....seems like you have a very reasonable explanation here. If indeed this boat had the recall, I guess a clamp not properly attached, could work it's way off in a rough chop. Very good info...
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Old 09-04-2007, 05:03 PM   #52
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Default Best not to speculate

Below is an article reporting a similar near sinking of a sailboat piloted by a US Merchant Marine licensed captain with 20 years experience. So many things can happen on the water, even to the most seasoned boaters. The best practice would be not to speculate.





Sinking sailboat bailout; Many hands rescue craft that lost propeller offshore

By Bruno Matarazzo Jr. , Staff writer
Salem News



BEVERLY - A hole just an inch in diameter gave an experienced sea captain his biggest fright yesterday when his 40-foot sailboat began taking on water and he feared his four passengers would have to abandon ship.

But, on the final day of the holiday weekend, the labor of a large contingent of North Shore marine public safety personnel helped to rescue the four passengers and bring the recently purchased boat, Tiki Maru II, back to the Jubilee Yacht Club off Beverly Harbor.

"I never had this happen in 50 years," said Jeff Cole, 60, of Beverly, moments after he stepped off his boat, a Block Island 40.

The propeller somehow separated from its drive shaft and sank while Cole was sailing a mile and a half off Salem Willows. The hole in the hull through which the propeller drive shaft connects to the engine allowed water to seep in unnoticed until the boat started handling erratically, said Salem police Sgt. Peter Gifford, Salem's harbormaster.

Without knowing why the galley was taking on water, Cole said he prepared to have his crew don life jackets and jump off the sinking sailboat.

Cole's distress call's simple message - "We're abandoning ship" - over the shipboard radio at 1 p.m. summoned rescuers from the Salem, Beverly and Marblehead harbormasters, the state Environmental Police marine unit, and the Coast Guard.

Patrol boats raced to the area and found the five people at the sailboat's stern.

Beverly Deputy Harbormaster Ed Hathon and Assistant Harbormaster Bret Marciano were the first on scene.

"The five (people on the boat) were all on the back deck, ready to abandon ship. We asked all the people to get off and asked the captain to stay on board," Hathon said.

The four passengers got on the Beverly harbormaster's boat.

Gifford pulled up alongside the Tiki Maru II and was soon joined by other North Shore rescuers.

Using two gasoline-powered pumps, Hathon, Marciano, Gifford and Environmental Police Officer Robert Ingemi were able to start emptying water from the galley, which had submerged the Tiki Maru II's engine. Then they found and plugged the leak.

"It took four of us to keep the boat afloat. It was pretty nasty out," Gifford said, referring to the wind. While temperatures were in the 80s with relatively few clouds, a persistent, 15- to 20-knot wind buffeted rescuers throughout, until they eventually guided the sailboat back to Jubilee Yacht Club. Once there, the boat was hauled out of the water for repair.




"I'm eternally grateful to these fine gentlemen. Without their assistance, I would have lost the boat," Cole said, indicating the harbormasters and the Environmental Police as they prepared to leave.

Cole said he had no idea how the drive unit had separated from the sailboat.

He bought the boat on Aug. 16 and hadn't yet painted the boat's name (Polynesian for "ocean man") on the rear of the hull.

While the craft could have been a total loss had it sunk, his main concern was for his passengers.

"As a captain, my first obligation is for the safety of the crew and passengers. The vessel is secondary. That's law," he said.

Cole has been a captain for 20 years and is licensed by the U.S. Merchant Marine. He's sailed since he was 5 years old and sailed every sea except the Indian Ocean.
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Old 09-04-2007, 05:55 PM   #53
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Default You're kidding, right??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acres per Second
Maybe one "should know what's going on before you post".
You are telling us this????
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Old 09-04-2007, 06:31 PM   #54
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It could be infant mortality of some part, the boat could have hit something, a log or a piece of lumber. I doubt very much it could have been the drain plug but hopefully we will find out.

As for the gasoline, unless the tank was punctured it is probably still in the boat.

I could have guessed that Winnipesaukee was a friend of APS.
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Old 09-04-2007, 06:40 PM   #55
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Default I can see this.

My boys and I have personal experience with the 2 inch cooling line coming off while under power. We had launched at the Alton ramp and the kids drove up the bay like we always do. The kids came back in a panic, "the boat is sinking, get the trailer". The boat was still doing fairly well when I got to it. They raised the cover over the engine compartment and sure enough, there was at least 8 inches of water in the bottom of the boat. The bilge was pumping and I tried to assure the kids that we should try to figure out where the boat was leaking before we attempted to trailer it back to the marina. The more we looked, the lower the water got. Panic started to fade. I wondered why the motor was so wet. I had the kids turn the motor on and oh my God, you can get an awful lot of water through a 2 inch hose. The dealer must have not tightened the hose correctly after the winterizing the previous fall. It popped off during the seasons maiden voyage.

We now check all hoses just like the flyer the Marina hands out suggest. I guess they mean this one. I can only imagine what would have happened if we had been out on the broads and tried to get to shore before we sank.

I believe the kids knew something was up because of the weight the water added to the boat and made it unable to get on plane. Keep that in your emergency data base.
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Old 09-04-2007, 06:47 PM   #56
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ITD,

The poster who was on the boat stated that there was a "catestrophic failure...of the hull," and in a roundabout way blamed the marina/Cobalt Boats. It is unlikely that they hit something, as that would have been mentioned. The bellows theory was a good one as well. That sounds like a good idea as well.

A 1 inch hole is a huge deal. I forget the formula, but a two inch hole a foot below the waterline will take on about 70 gallons of water per minute.

Edit, here we go. I know this isn't the neatest, but it does provide an interesting reference. Source oceanmarineservices.com.

Quote:
   Flooding Rates of Various Size Holes At Differing Depths 

Figures Are In Gallons Per Minute (GPM)
Hole

Diameter
6" 1' 1' 6" 2' 3' Below Waterline
1/8" .17 .30 .31 .35 .43
1/4" .88 1.20 1.53 1.80 2.20
3/8" 1.94 2.70 3.40 3.90 4.80
1/2" 3.46 4.90 6.00 6.90 18.50
3/4" 7.77 11.00 13.50 15.60 19.10
1" 13.96 19.60 24.20 27.80 34.0
2" 55.49 78.60 96.10 111.10 136.10
4" 222.10 314.30 378.70 444.50 544.40
6" 499.60 707.20 865.30 1000.20 1225.00
			
		
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Old 09-04-2007, 06:59 PM   #57
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Relative to the Gasoline in the water question. I understand the accident happened in front of our place on the Island. If we had been here on Saturday I am sure we would have lots of pictures from Gal on the photo post.

Anyway, we happened to come up today and checked things out along our shore. Despite the wind, our place tends to capture things like pollen, pine needles, swim platforms etc. I am happy to report no evidence of gasoline. I was not very worried but am happy to report.
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Old 09-04-2007, 08:07 PM   #58
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I gathered from the post that the boat had 6 hours on it, but did not see anything telling if this was the first day out on it. If so, I doubt HIGHLY that a drain plug would have been left out being that far from Thurstons although if loosely installed it could come loose (doubt it). The boat would have filled long before. The bellows would be a likely culprit. Hull failure could be a possibility, but I am still surprised that the boat went all the way down. I once had a hull fail catastrophically in a 21' Blue Fin center console at the mouth of Portsmouth Harbor. The complete hull (sealed since the boat was outboard powered) was full but it did not leak up into the cockpit until I opened a floor access to see what was going on. We got towed in and discovered a 4' split in the hull. I wish that I still had the pictures...

When is the boat being raised? I am sure that will be quite the process in the depths and darkness out there. I would think that it may not necessarily sink straight down, even if the spot was marked by GPS at the time of the sinking it may be a distance away.
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Old 09-04-2007, 10:48 PM   #59
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Default Cobalt down

Boat not recovered. No slick observed when I went out today (3 times).
Depths in target area 120 feet average. Bad winds. High seas. Last time out I left at 6pm and ran SSS til ater dark-even then winds were still high without the white caps but heavy chop still making good scans nearly impossible. Still on it. Will post scans when it's over. It's a meatgrinder out there.
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Old 09-05-2007, 08:15 AM   #60
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My money's on the coolant hose, even though the "lake end" of it is less that two inches in diameter (more like 1"). The U joint bellows will eventually sink an unattended boat, but there isn't enough of an opening to sink a boat that's got a working bilge pump and a good battery. The water would have to leak through the gimbal bearing, between the races, which is packed full of grease, a cage, and rollers, and therefore offers no "easy" path for the water to flow.
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Old 09-05-2007, 11:51 AM   #61
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I,too read this thread for the first time.....and Winni.....you definately owe him an apology.I know you were only thinking out loud,but that was a little hurtful.
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Old 09-05-2007, 12:33 PM   #62
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Diver1111, what the heck would we do without you?
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:38 PM   #63
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Got a call from Gal today that the search activity has restarted today around 11 am. She promised to take some pics. Hopefully today will yield some favorable results for what appears to be a difficult recovery. My news hound has a ring side seat.
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Old 09-05-2007, 04:02 PM   #64
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Unhappy Missing Cobalt

The search appears to continue. The area seems to have shifted slightly and expanded since this morning. Hopefully Diver1111 will have some luck locating the boat.
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Old 09-05-2007, 07:18 PM   #65
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Winnipesaukee,

Why is it with each of your posts you half apologize and then you finish by putting your foot back in your mouth? Doesn't your mouth get sore after a while?

I suggest you stop blaming the captain until you know why the boat sank. (I feel sorry for any defendant that ends up with you on the jury.)

We're talking a brand new boat here Buckwheat; unless the captain was operating the boat irratically or had it overloaded I really can't hold the captain much to blame in this case.

The bilge pump would have been shooting water out the side of the hull at the dock/ramp had the plug been out. I've seen more than one boat sink at the ramp due to no plug. Most bilge pumps can't even keep up with "only" the plug being out.

The boat sank; thankfully everyone made it off. PERIOD!

Those kids from the boat went back to school with a whopper of a "What I did this summer" story.

In the end we all have learned from this.......wear your preserver.

My 2 cents.

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Old 09-05-2007, 08:02 PM   #66
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Default Foot in mouth

Winipesaukee,
I too have been found guilty of this communicable disease. Suck it up and apologise, or feel the obfiscation of anything you say in the future. We love to forgive.
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Old 09-05-2007, 08:48 PM   #67
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Guys:

Winnipesaukee is clearly ignorant and isn't man enough to admit his error. Let's focus on the boat sinking issue.
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Old 09-05-2007, 10:28 PM   #68
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Default Cobalt down

Started scanning at 7am today. SeaTow met up with me with two boats shortly thereafter. Great guys-know their stuff-persistent. Two salvage divers on board one SeaTow boat, one diver with a rebreather. Scanned 7am to 6:45pm. About a dozen possibles. Divers hit about 5 of them, down to perhaps 128. Deepest scanned depth by me in target area-144 feet. Topography flat for the most part and accomodating, vs. hard rock-this is big help. Mud bottom offers very good contrast against a fiberglass hull. Really tough to scan that deep with my unit, flag it accurately, and send divers down. Viz at 128 feet about 15 feet. Also difficult to narrow down area of sinking from information provided but SeaTow has a good idea-folks are helpful. MP ran defense for us most of the day-thanks MP.

You will see various types of flags & floats east of Rattlesnake in the work area-often overnight. Some go all the way over to the other shore. These are shore-to-shore line-of-sight markers for our scan runs. Please leave all of them-they are not flotsam. Thanks.
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Old 09-06-2007, 08:27 AM   #69
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Diver,

What is a "rebreather" and how does it work?

Thanks,

CZ
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Old 09-06-2007, 09:14 AM   #70
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Default Topside Cobalt...

Cobalt 246. 24' 3"

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Old 09-06-2007, 09:42 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave R
My money's on the coolant hose, even though the "lake end" of it is less that two inches in diameter (more like 1"). The U joint bellows will eventually sink an unattended boat, but there isn't enough of an opening to sink a boat that's got a working bilge pump and a good battery. The water would have to leak through the gimbal bearing, between the races, which is packed full of grease, a cage, and rollers, and therefore offers no "easy" path for the water to flow.

What about the exhause bellows? I think this is a straight shot into the hull if not right.. No?
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Old 09-06-2007, 11:27 AM   #72
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The exhaust bellows are not even required to run the boat. The exhaust is of course open on its far end but is sealed all the way back to the engine's cylinder heads. If water *did* come up there, it would ruin the engine, but not sink the boat. DaveR has it correct. There are no bellows on modern IO's which could create a large leak back into the boat even if they were all missing. The only exception to this was the 70's and earlier vintage OMC IO.

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Old 09-06-2007, 11:57 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kchace
The exhaust bellows are not even required to run the boat. The exhaust is of course open on its far end but is sealed all the way back to the engine's cylinder heads. If water *did* come up there, it would ruin the engine, but not sink the boat. DaveR has it correct. There are no bellows on modern IO's which could create a large leak back into the boat even if they were all missing. The only exception to this was the 70's and earlier vintage OMC IO.

Ken
Yep, my Bravo 3 doesn't even have an exhaust bellows.
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Old 09-06-2007, 12:49 PM   #74
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Post Here you go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Zipper
Diver,

What is a "rebreather" and how does it work?

Thanks,

CZ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebreather
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Old 09-06-2007, 03:04 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by secondcurve
Guys:

Winnipesaukee is clearly ignorant and isn't man enough to admit his error. Let's focus on the boat sinking issue.
I say we hold a public Lynching. Do we have time at the ForumFest? Maybe we could broadcast it live over one of the Cams.
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Old 09-06-2007, 08:11 PM   #76
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What happens to a boat like this after it is salvaged? Dry it out and re-sell it?
I'll look for it on EBay.

Glad to hear nobody got hurt, be safe recovering the boat fellas.
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Old 09-07-2007, 02:50 AM   #77
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Exclamation Fyi

My MD friend on Rattlesnake Island got stopped by the MPs there.

The MPs advised them that all boats be kept at least a ¼-mile away from the site of the recovery vessels.

Just a heads-up.
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Old 09-07-2007, 09:12 AM   #78
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Ummm......Maybe Maxum would be interested
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Old 09-07-2007, 02:25 PM   #79
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Default still not found?

I take it that the boat has not yet been found?

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Old 09-07-2007, 03:40 PM   #80
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Default let's do it right

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatto Nero
I say we hold a public Lynching. Do we have time at the ForumFest? Maybe we could broadcast it live over one of the Cams.
No, no.... to do a proper lynching we need a castle. A big, old Gothic castle with dead trees outside, cobwebs, full moon peeking through the thunderclouds, and we each need a torch.
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:04 PM   #81
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jetskier,

Thanks.

Man, that unit must cost a few $$$$$$.

CZ
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:25 PM   #82
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APS wrote:
Quote:
My MD friend on Rattlesnake Island got stopped by the MPs there.

The MPs advised them that all boats be kept at least a ¼-mile away from the site of the recovery vessels.

Just a heads-up.
Then shouldn't the MP or MP Auxiliary be running patrols along the perimeter of the search area (a 1/4 mile away) to ensure the safety of the divers (and that no one finds out what happens before the "official statement" if there is a statement)?
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Old 09-08-2007, 09:06 AM   #83
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Default Recovered???

Has the boat been recovered? Headed out to Rattlesnake yesterday, at 11 AM or so, and there no activity at all. No dive boats, no MP, no Sea Tow...nothing. I thought the area was off the eastern part of the island, so we went there and circled around the back side, but saw nothing.
Anyone??????
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Old 09-08-2007, 11:55 AM   #84
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Talking Foiled again

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanisLupusArctos
No, no.... to do a proper lynching ..{snip}.. and we each need a torch.
Well there's one problem right off the bat. I think Cate Park is a no smoking zone.
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Old 09-08-2007, 07:53 PM   #85
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Arrow Still Missing

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa meredith
Has the boat been recovered? Headed out to Rattlesnake yesterday, at 11 AM or so, and there no activity at all. No dive boats, no MP, no Sea Tow...nothing. I thought the area was off the eastern part of the island, so we went there and circled around the back side, but saw nothing.
Anyone??????
They must have arrived just after you left. They were here until it started to get dark.
Today they got started before 9:00 am searching a very wide area. After ForumFest IV we stopped by and they still hadn't found the boat yet. There are lots of shelves and boulders giving false readings on the sonar.
Kudos to Diver1111 for his perseverance! We missed you at the Fest.
Perhaps we should get the West Alton Submarine to aid in the search!

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Old 09-09-2007, 08:58 AM   #86
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Default Cobalt

Still working the area intensely; Scanned from roughly 7am-7pm Tues, Wed, Fri, Sat; Need day off here and there; Extremely difficult due to depths and target area-at one point 168 feet; Long ledge walls creating challenge; DES joined us yesterday with drop camera on cable; Divers working hard using rebreather and mixed gas-visibility at 138 feet about 15 feet; MP not really needed it seems as folks keep their distance most of the time; Still no sign of fuel anywhere; Grueling but interesting.
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Old 09-09-2007, 11:23 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diver1111
Still working the area intensely; ....... Need day off here and there; ........
Diver, out of curiosity how big is the search area? And you definately need and deserve a day off don't burn yourself out.....
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Old 09-09-2007, 11:51 AM   #88
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Diver,

Do you mind is I ask this? But are you getting paid to do this? And by whom, the insurance carrier? Do you get a salvage fee?

CZ
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Old 09-10-2007, 09:44 AM   #89
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Default Fanning the flamnes of speculation

I really don't want to spend time on speculation about any of this but this morning I heard one possible I will in fact post for your consideration. A man whose opinion I respect suggested that the reason this boat sank could well have been due to the coolant hose for system cooling coming off. A boat like this might pump 30 gallons per minute through the cooling system and if the hose remained close to its' connection point it's also possible an over-heated engine might not be noticed. That's alot of water in-fast.

As to compensation, I started this as a volunteer and continue on that basis at this time. Business has been slow so it's a good time to work this.
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Old 09-10-2007, 09:51 AM   #90
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When do they call it a search and leave it?
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Old 09-10-2007, 03:08 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant
When do they call it a search and leave it?

Probably when the blame game ends... I doubt anyone is dying to write this check!! (insurance, Cobalt, dealer, owner...)
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Old 09-10-2007, 03:17 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAMIAM
Ummm......Maybe Maxum would be interested
Good one, Samiam- If it's priced like it sunk I might be interested.


I will say in defense of Cobalt, in the reasearch I've done they are not only very highly regarded as to thier quality of construction, they also visually appear to be very well made. My only gripe with them is finding one without a Volvo stern drive and they are pricey.

Glad to hear everyone was OK. That's pretty darn scary.
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Old 09-10-2007, 08:00 PM   #93
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Question Daily Fines

Does anyone know if there will be fines for having the boat at the bottom of the lake? If a snowmobile goes in they have only a few days to retrieve it, then there are daily fines incurred. How many gallons of gas does the average snowmobile carry? Is it similar to a jet-ski?
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Old 09-10-2007, 08:13 PM   #94
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Default Snowmobile Gas Capacity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Gal
How many gallons of gas does the average snowmobile carry? Is it similar to a jet-ski?
RG - I don't know how much gas a typical jetski carries, but our snowmobiles have a gasoline capacity of a little over 10 gallons each.
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Old 09-10-2007, 08:27 PM   #95
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Default Write your legislators

For those of us that CAN'T vote, you who can should voice your concern as to enforcing all existing laws regarding laws that may have been broken as well as reponsible parties laws. As well as compensation that the State, County, and Town are forthcoming to them, due to the costs that have been incurred. (MP patrols around dive site). Apologies to the registered owners of this vessel, but we must have complete responsibility taken care of before we, the unheard from are asked to PAY MORE in taxes. Who is going to pay for this search? Sorry, No smilie faces.
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Old 09-11-2007, 12:00 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pineedles
For those of us that CAN'T vote, you who can should voice your concern as to enforcing all existing laws regarding laws that may have been broken as well as reponsible parties laws. As well as compensation that the State, County, and Town are forthcoming to them, due to the costs that have been incurred. (MP patrols around dive site). Apologies to the registered owners of this vessel, but we must have complete responsibility taken care of before we, the unheard from are asked to PAY MORE in taxes. Who is going to pay for this search? Sorry, No smilie faces.

paranoid

Main Entry: para·noid
Pronunciation: 'per-&-"noid, "pa-r&-
Variant(s): also para·noi·dal /"per-&-'noi-d&l, "pa-r&-/
Function: adjective
1 : characterized by or resembling paranoia
2 : characterized by suspiciousness, persecutory trends, or megalomania
3 : extremely fearful
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Old 09-11-2007, 06:25 AM   #97
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Post Where the dollars actually come from....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pineedles
...As well as compensation that the State, County, and Town are forthcoming to them, due to the costs that have been incurred. (MP patrols around dive site)... before we, the unheard from are asked to PAY MORE in taxes. Who is going to pay for this search?...
The bulk of the search and cursory maintenance of security around the site has been handled by the New Hampshire Narine Patrol. Thus, no property tax revenue has been expended by this agency as it receives no funding from local property tax payers, as has already been discussed in previous posts about this agency's funding. The costs incurred by this agency have already been funded by the State's 07 operating budget, therefore this search will result in no new fees or registration increases.

The initial response by locally based emergency personnel was already paid for in the local community's 07 town budget, therefore there will be no increase in the property tax for the response, just as if they responded to a car accident or fire at your summer home.

If and when the vessel is salvaged and depending on the circumstances that contributed to the sinking, circumstances that are becoming painfully obvious none of us are privy to, then a determination will be made to if and how much responsibility the vessel's owners & insurance company may have.

Thank God the good people of New Hampshire provide, as a community resource, rescue & recovery services regardless of one's abiity to pay. I shudder to think of the untold tragedy that could occur if one had to calculate their potential financial liability before they dialed 911 to summon an ambulace, police officer or fire truck.

Yes, there are the handful of those who abuse the State's good will on occasion, and there is State law that allows the State to recover damages in those extreme cases. In this case however, it appears the only negligence to date is in the opinion of some folks attempting to assign culpability without a single shred of evidence!
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Old 09-11-2007, 06:28 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diver1111
"...A boat like this might pump 30 gallons per minute through the cooling system and if the hose remained close to its' connection point it's also possible an over-heated engine might not be noticed. That's alot of water in-fast..."
Add that weight of water to this excerpt from the original Eagle-Tribune's article:

Quote:
"James Larsen's Cobalt Bowrider took on a big wave around 11:25 a.m., Marine Patrol Lt. Tim Dunleavy said. The eight people aboard donned their life jackets and jumped into the lake as the boat quickly filled with water and started to sink, Dunleavy said."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diver1111
"...As to compensation, I started this as a volunteer and continue on that basis at this time. Business has been slow so it's a good time to work this..."
Submit a bill anyway. The insurance company will be especially happy to pay you if this boat is found.

If the Cobalt is determined to be sound, the claimant has less claim to a 100% replacement. If not sound, then the carrier can recover some of its loss from Cobalt.

Even if it's not found this year, a civil lawsuit may provide the incentive by the insurance company to renew the search at a later time. (Adding-in the insurance interests of defendants Cobalt, the dealership, the engine manufacturer, the hose manufacturer and the hoseclamp manufacturer )

Also, my reading of automotive claims has been that the insurance company will pay a large fraction of the new boat's cost, but not replace the boat anywhere-near 100%. The threat of a lawsuit may be sufficient to negotiate the 100%, however.

IMHO.
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Old 09-11-2007, 07:54 AM   #99
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Gal
Does anyone know if there will be fines for having the boat at the bottom of the lake? If a snowmobile goes in they have only a few days to retrieve it, then there are daily fines incurred. How many gallons of gas does the average snowmobile carry? Is it similar to a jet-ski?
My snowmobile holds just over 10 gallons, and my jet ski holds right around 15 gallons. Both have oil tanks that hold under a gallon of oil.
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Old 09-11-2007, 09:04 AM   #100
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pineedles
For those of us that CAN'T vote, you who can should voice your concern as to enforcing all existing laws regarding laws that may have been broken as well as reponsible parties laws. As well as compensation that the State, County, and Town are forthcoming to them, due to the costs that have been incurred. (MP patrols around dive site). Apologies to the registered owners of this vessel, but we must have complete responsibility taken care of before we, the unheard from are asked to PAY MORE in taxes. Who is going to pay for this search? Sorry, No smilie faces.
What laws may have been broken here??? What are you talking about? A boat sank for reasons unknown and luckily the the occupants were safe. Had this happened a bit later in the season when water temps are lower this could have been tragic.

Being a waterfront owner I am happy to hear much effort (and a lot of volunteer hours as well) is being put into locating and raising the boat. Leaving hazardous materials at the bottom of the lake does not thrill me.

Usually as part of your marine insurance policy they would cover the search and raising of the vessel up to a certain point. Even if they had hit something which does not sound to be the issue the collision coverage would cover that.
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