Moultonborough continues to polarize

[Cal-to-NH]

It was sad to hear that our long-time Town Administrator, Walter Johnson, was sacked by the Selectmen yesterday. The town is in a challenging time right now, and it's all over that Community Center. It cost us one of our Selectmen already, and now our loved Town Administrator. This fight is uncharacteristic for us, and there seems to be no resolution or path forward yet. Until there is, we are in for quite a ride..... Uncharted waters for Moultonborough.... And I hope we navigate through it sooner than later.

[Natt]

Can't understand what is going on in our town. Residents in our neighborhood in East Moultonborough has been consumed by the Mount Shaw Gun Club approval issue in our residential zone. The land use dept. and zoning board seem willing to circumvent ordinances for favored individuals. Hundreds upon hundreds of rifle shots in our back yards on a daily basis is not acceptable. This has instigated court filings number two and three. We as plaintiffs and taxpayers are forced to spend many thousands of dollars in an attempt to halt our property diminution and maintain our residential quality of life. This has been an issue for many months and I fear that the immediate response has been to seek an escape goat. Mr. Chuck Purse need only travel 2.8 miles down the road from the main gate at his residence at Bald Peak Colony Club to the Winnipesaukee Sportsman Club to do all shooting he and his friends want. Something is terribly wrong around here.

[Cal-to-NH]

I agree:

Something is definitely wrong.

This is not us.

[TheTimeTraveler]

Originally Posted by Natt

Can't understand what is going on in our town. Residents in our neighborhood in East Moultonborough has been consumed by the Mount Shaw Gun Club approval issue in our residential zone. The land use dept. and zoning board seem willing to circumvent ordinances for favored individuals. Hundreds upon hundreds of rifle shots in our back yards on a daily basis is not acceptable. This has instigated court filings number two and three. We as plaintiffs and taxpayers are forced to spend many thousands of dollars in an attempt to halt our property diminution and maintain our residential quality of life. This has been an issue for many months and I fear that the immediate response has been to seek an escape goat. Mr. Chuck Purse need only travel 2.8 miles down the road from the main gate at his residence at Bald Peak Colony Club to the Winnipesaukee Sportsman Club to do all shooting he and his friends want. Something is terribly wrong around here.

The permitted rifle shots in your back yard is very unfortunate and will definitely have a negative affect on your property value. What family with kids would want to buy your place? Or anything else in the neighborhood?

Wishing you luck in resolving this as I'm afraid it's an uphill battle.

[WinnisquamZ]

Don’t have skin in the game, but what came first. Gun club or homes?


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[MAXUM]

Gun club has been around since 1969.

I hope they are able to keep the club going, it's becoming more common place these days people move in next to a club then start to raise hell to shut them down. Club I used to belong to had to fight a similar battle and prevailed.

If you don't want to listen to shots going off then don't buy a piece of property next to a club. Simple as that.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Gun club has been around since 1969.

I hope they are able to keep the club going, it's becoming more common place these days people move in next to a club then start to raise hell to shut them down. Club I used to belong to had to fight a similar battle and prevailed.

If you don't want to listen to shots going off then don't buy a piece of property next to a club. Simple as that.

Like the folks who bought opposite Braun Bay?

[winterh]

If I am getting this right the gun club was there first. If thats the case I have zero sympathy for neighbors who want it gone. Might even look into joining. I owned a home years ago in Mass. There was a kennel down the street that had been there for years. I was well aware of it when I bought. Every once in a while you could hear some dogs barking. An attorney moved in next door to me and put the kennel through hell while trying to get the neighborhood to back him.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

I might be wrong here, but I believe that the noise complaint has to do with the new shooting range, right across from the Bald Peak entrance and put in by a Bald Peak resident for himself and his friends. I am unaware of the older gun club that adjoins States Landing being an issue with anyone.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

I might be wrong here, but I believe that the noise complaint has to do with the new shooting range, right across from the Bald Peak entrance and put in by a Bald Peak resident for himself and his friends. I am unaware of the older gun club that adjoins States Landing being an issue with anyone.

Which is perfectly legal to do as well. In the state of NH you can legally discharge firearms so long as you are not within 300 feet of a permanently occupied dwelling. This can be done in an residential area. Unlike our neighboring states you don't need permission, permits or other nonsense.

My neighbors setup a shooting range on their property and use it all the time. It's their right to do so. I've actually seen what they have set up and it's well done and safe. I may have yet to ask them if I can use it here and there.

I'd rather listen to gun fire than the crap blaring from these ski\wakeboard boats.

As to Braun Bay, APS seriously if you are dropping millions on a piece of property and don't do your own research to know what happens there and has for years and years, then that's your own fault.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

I hope they are able to keep the club going, it's becoming more common place these days people move in next to a club then start to raise hell to shut them down. Club I used to belong to had to fight a similar battle and prevailed.

If you don't want to listen to shots going off then don't buy a piece of property next to a club. Simple as that.

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Which is perfectly legal to do as well. In the state of NH you can legally discharge firearms so long as you are not within 300 feet of a permanently occupied dwelling. This can be done in an residential area. Unlike our neighboring states you don't need permission, permits or other nonsense.

My neighbors setup a shooting range on their property and use it all the time. It's their right to do so. I've actually seen what they have set up and it's well done and safe. I may have yet to ask them if I can use it here and there.

Your posts are funny--

If you are a gun club, you are right if you arrive before the residents (this one I actually agree with).

But if you're the residents, the gun club is right even if you get there first.

It would be easier for us to follow if you just said from the start that you think gun clubs should have priority over homeowners under any circumstances

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

It would be easier for the rest of us to follow if you just said you don't give a damn about anybody else

I think thats a little harsh and uncalled for.

Too often it seems that there cant be a discussion/debate on any matter of interest without it getting aggressive and insulting.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

I think thats a little harsh and uncalled for.

Too often it seems that there cant be a discussion/debate on any matter of interest without it getting aggressive and insulting.

You're right. I've edited. Thanks

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

You're right. I've edited. Thanks

Its an easy trap to fall into and a fine line between expressing you opinions without attacking the other guy. I am as guilty as the next guy for getting pissed off over something and always struggling to figure out how to express my feelings without trashing the other person, and some days its really hard if you strongly believe in something and are frustrated.

ATB

[swnoel]

And people wonder why locals dislike out of state people moving to their communities...

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Your posts are funny--

If you are a gun club, you are right if you arrive before the residents (this one I actually agree with).

But if you're the residents, the gun club is right even if you get there first.

It would be easier for us to follow if you just said from the start that you think gun clubs should have priority over homeowners under any circumstances

No offense but you apparently can't read.

First post I wrote specifically addressed people that move in next to a gun club and try to shut it down. That's just plain wrong.

My second post said something completely different in that the person(s) that are shooting on their own property have the right to do so and it is perfectly legal. I stopped short on commenting on whether or not they can or should be stopped.

I personally have no problem with anyone shooting so long as it's done in a safe responsible manner.

[XCR-700]

Is anyone really surprised by the debate?

And the debate is not just the transplants having different opinions and preferences, its also society evolution as well.

What was reasonable and accepted 40 years ago is changing everywhere.

How many people have moved to that area from Mass and brought their Massachusetts values and standards with them, as opposed to how many left Massachusetts to adopt NH standards and values that existed years ago in their memories, but may in fact no longer be the local standards and values???

Most in MA are rabidly anti gun, or believe in many restrictions including when and where you shoot them. So I would expect most to bring that with them to NH. But if you are looking to escape those restrictions, NH may no longer be the place to go.

And least we forget, its all to common for the not in my backyard perspective to make its presence even for those seeking a middle ground.

My closest friends and I are the type who would be looking to move to NH and buy 10 acres each and be able to shoot in our own backyards, and yet most of the people we know and work with would be horrified by that concept, and in truth I dont know if that goal is realistic any more,,,

How do you bridge that gap?

Sorry, I wish I knew,,,

Best of luck to you all, I see a protracted battle ahead on this matter.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

No offense but you apparently can't read.

First post I wrote specifically addressed people that move in next to a gun club and try to shut it down. That's just plain wrong.

My second post said something completely different in that the person(s) that are shooting on their own property have the right to do so and it is perfectly legal. I stopped short on commenting on whether or not they can or should be stopped.

I personally have no problem with anyone shooting so long as it's done in a safe responsible manner.

None taken--I have my son reading your stuff to me, then he types my reply.

But it's not really sporting of you to "stop short". It seems obvious from your post that you favor the gun clubs opening next door to established neighborhoods. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[longislander]

Moultonborough ...........

From Walter ... to gun clubs ?????????????????????????

[marinewife]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Is anyone really surprised by the debate?

And the debate is not just the transplants having different opinions and preferences, its also society evolution as well.

What was reasonable and accepted 40 years ago is changing everywhere.

How many people have moved to that area from Mass and brought their Massachusetts values and standards with them, as opposed to how many left Massachusetts to adopt NH standards and values that existed years ago in their memories, but may in fact no longer be the local standards and values???

Most in MA are rabidly anti gun, or believe in many restrictions including when and where you shoot them. So I would expect most to bring that with them to NH. But if you are looking to escape those restrictions, NH may no longer be the place to go.

And least we forget, its all to common for the not in my backyard perspective to make its presence even for those seeking a middle ground.

My closest friends and I are the type who would be looking to move to NH and buy 10 acres each and be able to shoot in our own backyards, and yet most of the people we know and work with would be horrified by that concept, and in truth I dont know if that goal is realistic any more,,,

How do you bridge that gap?

Sorry, I wish I knew,,,

Best of luck to you all, I see a protracted battle ahead on this matter.

~~~~~~~
We moved to NH and the short list of must haves to our realtor were:
A ranch house or colonial with a bedroom on the 1st floor, within 5 miles from town and a supermarket (Wolfeboro), 3BRs, and 10 acres for my husband to shoot target practice in the back yard. It took us 3 yrs of searching to find it.

We found one with 18 acres in Wolfeboro, but the next door neighbor had a big shooting range and was constantly shooting. That was his right, but I preferred not to be his neighbor.

I was on the internet 2 hours a night minimum, searching, sometimes typing: Is my home in a flood zone when FEMA maps pop up to show you once you add the address- I also didn't want wetlands, so you get the picture, it was a long process. Move in day, on a hot July afternoon, was magnified by 3 bears in our front yard. There's a turkey parade here constantly. Would I prefer no turkeys? Sure, but I can live with it.

Neighbors behind us drive their quad on their yard, whooping and hollering 4 out of 7 nights. Back in my old state, no one had a yard BIG enough to do that. However, if I was a neighbor of a shooting range, I would probably not be thrilled.

The pros of living in NH outweigh the bad, but in the case of the very wealthy Bald Peak man buying land and building a range with permits from the town,
I would hope that he curtails the usage to make things easier for those residents.


We're extremely grateful we moved here. We have met great people, made some great friends, shop and eat out as much as we can locally, donate to our community, and above all, appreciate how great this state is.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by marinewife

~~~~~~~
We moved to NH and the short list of must haves to our realtor were:
A ranch house or colonial with a bedroom on the 1st floor, within 5 miles from town and a supermarket (Wolfeboro), 3BRs, and 10 acres for my husband to shoot target practice in the back yard. It took us 3 yrs of searching to find it.

We found one with 18 acres in Wolfeboro, but the next door neighbor had a big shooting range and was constantly shooting. That was his right, but I preferred not to be his neighbor.

I was on the internet 2 hours a night minimum, searching, sometimes typing: Is my home in a flood zone when FEMA maps pop up to show you once you add the address- I also didn't want wetlands, so you get the picture, it was a long process. Move in day, on a hot July afternoon, was magnified by 3 bears in our front yard. There's a turkey parade here constantly. Would I prefer no turkeys? Sure, but I can live with it.

Neighbors behind us drive their quad on their yard, whooping and hollering 4 out of 7 nights. Back in my old state, no one had a yard BIG enough to do that. However, if I was a neighbor of a shooting range, I would probably not be thrilled.

The pros of living in NH outweigh the bad, but in the case of the very wealthy Bald Peak man buying land and building a range with permits from the town,
I would hope that he curtails the usage to make things easier for those residents.


We're extremely grateful we moved here. We have met great people, made some great friends, shop and eat out as much as we can locally, donate to our community, and above all, appreciate how great this state is.

GREAT story of working hard to strike a balance and making compromises.

In my 58 years I have only found a few absolute truths; we were all born, we will all die, and life is imperfect at best, oh and pretty much every day I will make one mistake and on an average day several.

Sounds like you folks are probably pretty good neighbors and additions to your community!

ATB

[C-Bass]

Where is this property by bald peak? I drive by there twice a day five days a week. Is it the 110acres by severance rd? That’s would be one hell of a buy for just a shooting range.

[marinewife]

Originally Posted by C-Bass

Where is this property by bald peak? I drive by there twice a day five days a week. Is it the 110acres by severance rd? That’s would be one hell of a buy for just a shooting range.

1277 GWH- bought in 2018, 40 acres for $120,000

You can see the plot and photos on the website: www.axisgis.com then type in Moultonborough- the property is sandwiched in between 40 acres
owned by Bald Peak Company to the north and over 110 acres of land owned by someone else on the left side to the south.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Many of us are relieved to see Mr. Johnson’s departure from his role as Town Administrator. The Board of Selectmen voted 4-1 not to renew his contract. He was divisive, political, and many of us felt his handling of the recent Town Meeting was a disaster. Also, one of his hand-picked regulatory officials was largely responsible for the approval of the contentious new gun range across from Bald Peak; this second-hand information is from a reliable source. We are hoping that a new T.A. will be able to tackle the job without causing further divisiveness and can manage the various departments under his jurisdiction.

[ApS]

My neighbor on 101 acres shoots occasionally. The powerful rifle blasts out shots from 400 feet from my front door, and a "bump-stock" was in use last week.

My neighbor told me yesterday there's a full-sized plastic deer target out front. From the echoes returning from the treetops, we're thinking he uses his forested acreage as a backstop!

[stynx55]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Is anyone really surprised by the debate?

And the debate is not just the transplants having different opinions and preferences, its also society evolution as well.

What was reasonable and accepted 40 years ago is changing everywhere.

How many people have moved to that area from Mass and brought their Massachusetts values and standards with them, as opposed to how many left Massachusetts to adopt NH standards and values that existed years ago in their memories, but may in fact no longer be the local standards and values???

Most in MA are rabidly anti gun, or believe in many restrictions including when and where you shoot them. So I would expect most to bring that with them to NH. But if you are looking to escape those restrictions, NH may no longer be the place to go.

And least we forget, its all to common for the not in my backyard perspective to make its presence even for those seeking a middle ground.

My closest friends and I are the type who would be looking to move to NH and buy 10 acres each and be able to shoot in our own backyards, and yet most of the people we know and work with would be horrified by that concept, and in truth I dont know if that goal is realistic any more,,,

How do you bridge that gap?

Sorry, I wish I knew,,,

Best of luck to you all, I see a protracted battle ahead on this matter.

My wife and and I bought our place in Moultonborough to escape from Ma and its awful politics, the last thing we wanted is to make Moultonborough like Ma. I love being able to shoot and buy whatever legal gun we want. I love being able to hike, and snowmobile right from our property. Sadly I think within 5 years Moultonborough will be so over developed that this will all end.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by stynx55

My wife and and I bought our place in Moultonborough to escape from Ma and its awful politics, the last thing we wanted is to make Moultonborough like Ma. I love being able to shoot and buy whatever legal gun we want. I love being able to hike, and snowmobile right from our property. Sadly I think within 5 years Moultonborough will be so over developed that this will all end.

You didn"t move far enough North.


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[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

None taken--I have my son reading your stuff to me, then he types my reply.

But it's not really sporting of you to "stop short". It seems obvious from your post that you favor the gun clubs opening next door to established neighborhoods. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Well here's the deal as I am on the fence with this one. I have no problem at all with anyone who chooses to shoot on their own property for their own enjoyment so long as it is done safe. As I have already said my neighbor does it all the time, he bought his house so he could do this and I have no problem with it. This is a zoned low density residential area.

Now far as a "gun club" goes, is this really a gun club or a owner inviting friends over and they happen to throw a lot of lead around? Let's be accurate with identifying exactly what is going on here. Thus far reality doesn't seem terribly clear and not being familiar with the story I won't make assumptions. To an ignorant observer volume of shots fired may be disturbing but doesn't necessarily mean there are large volumes of individuals engaged at the same time.

All that said - whether the abutters like it or not the landowner has rights too. I personally would not endorse trying to shoehorn in a firing range that is open to paid membership use close to a residential area just because it's not conducive for them to cohabitate in close proximity to one another due to the noise generated. Site work can be done to reduce the overall noise but nothing will completely eliminate it.

[marinewife]

The Union Leader wrote an article about the shooting platforms and issues last October 2019.

One can Google: Charles Purse or Chuck Purse Moultonborough and find it.

It looks like the intention was for friends to use it.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by marinewife

The Union Leader wrote an article about the shooting platforms and issues last October 2019.

One can Google: Charles Purse or Chuck Purse Moultonborough and find it.

It looks like the intention was for friends to use it.

It all boils down to "reasonable use". Some people might have 3 friends, another might have 300. If it was several non stop hours every weekend I'd be pissed. Those that also own and use gun ranges might have more tolerance than ones that don't. But I'm sure everyone has their limits.

It's just about common respect for one another. Most people go to the lakes region for peace and quiet. Not to listen to boys play with their toys.

I was once going for my pilots license and learning at a suburb airport. I absolutely loved it. Until I learned that the old small planes still used leaded fuel (all be it low lead, it was leaded). I could not get past the fact that I was poisoning the homes below for my enjoyment. So I quit. Do what you want, but you should respect your fellow neighbor. Something that is severely lacking in society today. And it ain't the millennial's nor those folks from Mass that are lacking it any more than the natives.

I don't know the terrain or the size of the guns being used. But gun fire can travel really far around mountains and lakes.

[Natt]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Gun club has been around since 1969.

I hope they are able to keep the club going, it's becoming more common place these days people move in next to a club then start to raise hell to shut them down. Club I used to belong to had to fight a similar battle and prevailed.

If you don't want to listen to shots going off then don't buy a piece of property next to a club. Simple as that.

Don't know where your getting your bogus info. We've been here for 4 decades, DECADES. The Mount Shaw Gun Club started a year and a half ago. Mr. Purse appears to have been been deceptive and disingenuous when stating to the ZBA and CCO that this was his backyard and the shooting would be for family and friends. Some of his email highlights from 4/4/19 include..."opening day shoot at 1277 Wentworth Highway"..."warmup and competition at Five Stand"..."private shooting lessons"..."consider becoming a patron"..."test out and potentially purchase a shotgun or rifle" from "a local gun dealer"..."hold shooting clinics for beginner shooters on Saturday and Sunday mornings"..."

[C-Bass]

Originally Posted by marinewife

1277 GWH- bought in 2018, 40 acres for $120,000

You can see the plot and photos on the website: www.axisgis.com then type in Moultonborough- the property is sandwiched in between 40 acres
owned by Bald Peak Company to the north and over 110 acres of land owned by someone else on the left side to the south.

Okay got it, can't see it from the main road. I see Bald peak has bought several properties in the area including that 110ac. I wonder to what end and why? Beside a shooting range, more house lots? Interesting.

[marinewife]

Probably that giant plot will be getting ready for new homes- people could live across the street, join the club, ride their golf carts across the street, and maybe the blinker will become a stop light.

With all of the people moving up here, who knows...

[gwhite13]

imagine being the sawmill that gets to process trees from that area in 30yrs. from now. Few dozen planer blades will be destroyed. With no backstop, what could go wrong.

many year ago working on a home development, a police target range, nearby, had a stray bullet severely injure carpenter onsite.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by Natt

Don't know where your getting your bogus info. We've been here for 4 decades, DECADES. The Mount Shaw Gun Club started a year and a half ago. Mr. Purse appears to have been been deceptive and disingenuous when stating to the ZBA and CCO that this was his backyard and the shooting would be for family and friends. Some of his email highlights from 4/4/19 include..."opening day shoot at 1277 Wentworth Highway"..."warmup and competition at Five Stand"..."private shooting lessons"..."consider becoming a patron"..."test out and potentially purchase a shotgun or rifle" from "a local gun dealer"..."hold shooting clinics for beginner shooters on Saturday and Sunday mornings"..."

The Winnipesaukee Sportsman Club has been around since 1969 which is at first what I thought was being discussed here. I have no affiliation with this club however I know most if not all clubs and their leadership are very aware of and bend over backwards to be courteous with establishing rules that take under consideration the noise that is generated through the use of the ranges.

Since it is not that particular club in question this is a different situation. Again - it does not change the fact the landowner has every right to shoot on their own property so long as it falls within the parameters of what the state deems as permissible. If this is an organized club that is starting up or a for profit business that is up to the authorities to make a call as to how this should be handled.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Natt

Don't know where your getting your bogus info. We've been here for 4 decades, DECADES. The Mount Shaw Gun Club started a year and a half ago. Mr. Purse appears to have been been deceptive and disingenuous when stating to the ZBA and CCO that this was his backyard and the shooting would be for family and friends. Some of his email highlights from 4/4/19 include..."opening day shoot at 1277 Wentworth Highway"..."warmup and competition at Five Stand"..."private shooting lessons"..."consider becoming a patron"..."test out and potentially purchase a shotgun or rifle" from "a local gun dealer"..."hold shooting clinics for beginner shooters on Saturday and Sunday mornings"..."

It seems there are a fair amount of lines quoted that indicate commercial vs. private/residence use. Sounds like approval under false pretenses.

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[Sue Doe-Nym]

In reading Natt’s latest post, several things come to mind: fraud on the part of the applicant, commercial vs. private use, and sloppiness on the part of the COE, whose job is to delve deeply into the applicant’s intentions, etc. regarding use of the property.

[whynot]

So, I get that you gun folks like shooting at things but why don't you use a suppressor? Is disturbing your neighbors quality of life part of the appeal?

[Patofnaud]

Because suppressors are bad and make people into snipers!

Seriously though in most countries you get fined for NOT using a suppressor as the noise of open fire scares everyone and all the wildlife. But, in the US with all the stigma and 'well intentioned lawmakers', between supressor pemit fees and local laws, for most its not worth the costs/hassle to Joe Normalguy.

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by whynot

So, I get that you gun folks like shooting at things but why don't you use a suppressor? Is disturbing your neighbors quality of life part of the appeal?

If someone moves next to an existing gun range then they have no leg to stand/complain on. If a range is built after they move to an area and they do not like gun fire I understand that also.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

Most people go to the lakes region for peace and quiet. Not to listen to boys play with their toys.

Interesting comment, and it may or may not be true, or maybe more region specific.

I literally just said to my wife how I love to come to Winnipesaukee to listen to power boats. As a child there was nothing better than hearing the drown of a boat at night making its way up or down Alton Bay. The way the sound just hangs in the bay is so unique and soothing and just speaks to my brain. And for 58 years it remains just a soothing and enjoyable. And to a lessor extent when in Northern NH or Maine, the sound of snowmobiles on a long trail creates a unique sound that I could almost record and play at home.

Clearly people have very different preferences and its unfortunate that these differences are so extreme and polarizing.

For 100+ years people have come to Winnipesaukee and the the lakes region for their various reasons and there have been all kinds of changes and dust-ups of the changes, but never have I seen so many problems as the last 20 years with the migration of so many from Massachusetts to NH and looking to change what it was to something else.

And please dont interpret my comments to be mean anything specific other than what I said.

I am not looking for my nostalgic memories and current preferences of open and above the water line exhaust classic boats to become 120 MPH races by novices in cigarette boats across the Broads, not do I believe the right to shoot on your own acreage (in a safe manner) should universally be allowed to evolve in to a massive shooting range for uber high power or automatic weapons.

Good Luck to all in sorting this mess out,,, Its not going to be easy to find the balance here and with the people involved.

[ApS]

Something that doesn't move...

Are such "nuisances" disclosed on realty sales agreements?

If not, why not?

[tis]

I think a lot of it has to do with volume. Nobody minds a few gunshots but all the time is a different story. Nobody minds a loud boat going up the broads but not all the time. Nobody minds jet skiis as long as they don't go round and round in circles. Nobody minds a wake boat going down the middle but not going round and round. Nobody minds the music for a minute while they drive through. Nobody minds people anchoring as long as there aren't tons of them yelling and screaming all afternoon. As it has gotten busier, there is more and more of everthing and I think that has become the issue.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by tis

I think a lot of it has to do with volume. Nobody minds a few gunshots but all the time is a different story. Nobody minds a loud boat going up the broads but not all the time. Nobody minds jet skiis as long as they don't go round and round in circles. Nobody minds a wake boat going down the middle but not going round and round. Nobody minds the music for a minute while they drive through. Nobody minds people anchoring as long as there aren't tons of them yelling and screaming all afternoon. As it has gotten busier, there is more and more of everthing and I think that has become the issue.

Well said!

But whats the fix, will people move away, will people stop moving there, will people evolve to accept the volume, or will they just battle endlessly until the most expensive or most creative lawyer wins the battle for one side or the other.

Again, good luck to you all, I see no easy fix, but it does start with recognition of the problems and expressing your preferences and concerns.

[tis]

XCR, I don't know what the fix is. I think people will battle endlessly and there will be more and more rules. I see a tension (fury) that I have never seen until the last few years between the different factions. Lots of people have that I can do whatever I want to attitude and don't respect others. I think there is going to be a serious confrontation one of these days and it's very scary. Just MHO.

[marinewife]

I agree, there seems to be more tension among people.

My father had a lovely home in an ocean community back in 1991.

After 9/11/01, a tremendous amount of people from NYC bought 2nd homes to escape. He was retired and had volunteered as an ambulance driver for his town in 1994. Dad noticed shortly after that no one was pulling over their cars for emergencies- they were double parked in front of stores, or kept driving, and precious minutes were lost on the way to the hospital for many of the people he was carrying. He got fed up with the traffic, the new residents, and the attitudes and moved to the hills of Schoharie County in New York State.

For the first time this summer, I noticed many out of state cars double-parked in front of stores on Main St in Wolfeboro. MA, CT, NY for the most part, but still, it's a small town and difficult to navigate with double-parked cars.

Today at 11:30AM, I saw a MA plate driver who was getting out of his car in front of Nolans shout and give the finger to a car driving past him. What in the world is going on- is it the months of dealing with the virus here or is it something else?

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by marinewife

…..I saw a MA plate driver.....

'Nuff said!

[marinewife]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

'Nuff said!

lol, be careful- 80% of out of state residents hail from MA.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by marinewife

lol, be careful- 80% of out of state residents hail from MA.

As do I...!

[whynot]

Re: using suppressors

I don't understand folks obsessed with their guns and feel the need to shoot them all the time. Sounds like a bunch of wanna be snipers.

I don't like the idea of rogue shooting ranges popping up willy nilly. Doesn't sound safe to me. Folks should be going to an established gun club to target practice.

[iw8surf]

Originally Posted by whynot

Re: using suppressors

I don't understand folks obsessed with their guns and feel the need to shoot them all the time. Sounds like a bunch of wanna be snipers.

I don't like the idea of rogue shooting ranges popping up willy nilly. Doesn't sound safe to me. Folks should be going to an established gun club to target practice.

People who shoot all the time are the same as golfers going to the driving range, or anyone else who does LITERALLY anything that requires repetitive practice to get better. Really not hard to understand.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by whynot

Re: using suppressors

I don't understand folks obsessed with their guns and feel the need to shoot them all the time. Sounds like a bunch of wanna be snipers.

I don't like the idea of rogue shooting ranges popping up willy nilly. Doesn't sound safe to me. Folks should be going to an established gun club to target practice.

I don't like the idea of people like yourself who clearly have little to no knowledge of anything related to firearms telling me what I can and cannot do ESPECIALLY on my own property just because YOU don't understand.

Furthermore wherever this notion is that those of us that enjoy target practice are some how some wanna be snipers is completely ignorant which is typical.

I'm however glad that you find it safe to encourage people to go put silencers on their firearms as they run around as you put it - like wanna be snipers. Perfect....

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by whynot

Re: using suppressors

I don't understand folks obsessed with their guns and feel the need to shoot them all the time. Sounds like a bunch of wanna be snipers.

I don't like the idea of rogue shooting ranges popping up willy nilly. Doesn't sound safe to me. Folks should be going to an established gun club to target practice.

You are quite correct....You really “don’t understand”.

Dan

[joey2665]

I was going to reply to whynot but no need as you guys did an excellent job in your responses.

Thank you!!


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[phoenix]

I think the real polarization revolves around the rec center. One group continues to push a 7 m plan and others want nothing. It would seem if only a 2-3m primarily senior center was proposed with no other options maybe it would provide the town something it needs and maybe both sides could accept. I am a summer resident so i don vote but i would support a smaller option

[tis]

Originally Posted by phoenix

I think the real polarization revolves around the rec center. One group continues to push a 7 m plan and others want nothing. It would seem if only a 2-3m primarily senior center was proposed with no other options maybe it would provide the town something it needs and maybe both sides could accept. I am a summer resident so i don vote but i would support a smaller option

That's what I had read at first was the cause. So all this about the gun range surprised me.

[tummyman]

Post #55 talks about a scaled down CC as a viable option. The option is right in front of everyone....it is the former Keepsake building at 130 Whittier Highway. Fabulous facility that could accommodate all the town needs. Sale price $1.6M. Toss in some money for rehab, etc, and it could be up and running in a few months for close to $2.0M. Would not even need to be bonded. Facility is on TOWN SEWER, has a generator, parking, etc. etc. No septic issues ever. But there is such polarization in this town that NOBODY knows how to compromise. Must be that they were in DC and learned how not to get anything done. So instead fo fixing things for the folks in town, we'll continue to piss and moan at Town Meeting and if anything NEW that gets approved...not likely...is probably 5 years off. All the parents who want stuff for their kids will have the kids in college before the town does anything. And the Lions Club will continue to rot. Stupid.......but that is Moultonborough today. Reasonable people would be working TOGETHER on this. But no, all they want to do is complain
that they are not getting their way.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by tummyman

Post #55 talks about a scaled down CC as a viable option. The option is right in front of everyone....it is the former Keepsake building at 130 Whittier Highway. Fabulous facility that could accommodate all the town needs. Sale price $1.6M. Toss in some money for rehab, etc, and it could be up and running in a few months for close to $2.0M. Would not even need to be bonded. Facility is on TOWN SEWER, has a generator, parking, etc. etc. No septic issues ever. But there is such polarization in this town that NOBODY knows how to compromise. Must be that they were in DC and learned how not to get anything done. So instead fo fixing things for the folks in town, we'll continue to piss and moan at Town Meeting and if anything NEW that gets approved...not likely...is probably 5 years off. All the parents who want stuff for their kids will have the kids in college before the town does anything. And the Lions Club will continue to rot. Stupid.......but that is Moultonborough today. Reasonable people would be working TOGETHER on this. But no, all they want to do is complain
that they are not getting their way.

The people who want to spend the big bucks don’t want to hear anything about the Keepsake building. To many of us, those who will be footing the bill for a large %age of this building, have suggested it as a viable option, and a fabulous compromise. The school/rec. center/ new gym people want the $ 7 million extravaganza on the Taylor property adjoining the school.
With this attitude, they may be buildingless forever, and that’s fine with me.

[longislander]

The Sabanek building, warehouse/distribution center for Keepsake quilts, at 130 Whittier Hy., could indeed be part of the solution, to end the Moultonborough annual, rec.center/ gym/community center "fight".

https://www.xome.com/commercial-for-...3254-329527566

The Capital Improvements Program Committee (CIPC) for this 2021 town meeting has already introduced the Taj Mahal gym. The select board probably won't act on it, as they have not in the past. A 25 registered voter petition will legally put it on the 2021 warrant, again, and the select board cannot legally stop it.

Last annual meeting, in fairness to the select board, they tried to re-build the former Lions Club property (present community center) and next year do something for the gym.

The petition for the Taj Mahal came in just in time to be placed on the warrant. Neither passed by the 2/3rds majority vote needed.

The prime proponent for the Taj Mahal has now retired from the recreation department, but was only a figure head for the folks that want a town paid child care center.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by longislander

The Sabanek building, warehouse/distribution center for Keepsake quilts, at 130 Whittier Hy., could indeed be part of the solution, to end the Moultonborough annual, rec.center/ gym/community center "fight".

https://www.xome.com/commercial-for-...3254-329527566


The Capital Improvements Program Committee (CIPC) for this 2021 town meeting has already introduced the Taj Mahal gym. The select board probably won't act on it, as they have not in the past. A 25 registered voter petition will legally put it on the 2021 warrant, again, and the select board cannot legally stop it.

Last annual meeting, in fairness to the select board, they tried to re-build the former Lions Club property (present community center) and next year do something for the gym.

The petition for the Taj Mahal came in just in time to be placed on the warrant. Neither passed by the 2/3rds majority vote needed.

The prime proponent for the Taj Mahal has now retired from the recreation department, but was only a figure head for the folks that want a town paid child care center.

Sounds like a voter petition to eliminate the Capital Improvements Program Committee is needed more than anything else.

[Juiced06GTO]

We had a similar situation regarding a new library in my small rural town in Mass, pop 8k people. They proposed a 12+ million dollar library for the town the year after we built an 8 million dollar police station. The gross expense of these two buildings was too much for a lot of people in the town and the library proposal took a massive beating at the town meeting. People were so polarized in their view that they refused to try and compromise and the meeting almost digressed into a shouting match had it not been for the board taking control and calming people down.

I was one of many who saw no need to sink 12 million dollars into a library for a town of 8k people and a total school population of 400 kids! A more reasonable building or re-purposing of an existing building was never even brought up as an option because it wouldn't have qualified for the state grant of 2 million dollars towards the new building. Had there been any real discussion I may have considered voting for a more reasonable proposal.

[tummyman]

Totally agree. Useless group. No real long term planning. Even BOS does not pay attention to them. When they went to Town Meeting with changes to budget articles that had capital items, they never even consulted with CIPC. Pure useless committee.

[tummyman]

All we need is 25 registered voters to submit a petition article for the 130 property. Any interest????

[XCR-700]

I was looking back over some of the comments in this thread and in the light of a new day a few of them made me laugh.

No offense to the posters intended, but it clearly shows how differently people think, or dont think,,,

One comment about neighbors riding 4 wheelers around their property was a bit humorous to me. As if someone would go out and spend countless thousands of dollars on these machines and not ride them. Why would you buy them to not ride them and just look at the rotting away from lack of use. I'm sure I'm missing something on that post, but rereading it made me laugh.

Then there were comments about using suppressors and shooting all the time. And how can any actually gun owner not shake their head in disbelief on that one. "why are we not using suppressors" because most of us would go to jail for a long time for doing such! Suppressor and full-auto restrictions are possibly the craziest firearms restrictions every passed. People watch too many movies and believe thats real life. No one is taking a $50,000 full auto gun in to hold up that local gas station or liquor store, and no one is using suppressors to kill their neighbors, bosses, husbands, wives, etc. But its clear from the poster they have no exposure to guns in any meaningful way. And that thread also included a comment about shooting all the time, so as with the 4 wheeler comment, there is some belief that the buyer/owner just bought it to look at, not actually use. Too funny. Again, not intending to insult the OP, just noting the very different points of view.

But in the end these posts were not personal attacks against any other poster, so its a good open discussion and exchange of perspectives and insight into the other persons world.

And when you take a breath and look at it a day later, it usually doesn't irritate you nearly as much as the first read, and in some cases may actually make you laugh at how different some of us see the world than others.

Like I said in the title just my stupid observations and if you read this, I cant feel too bad for you, you were warned

[marinewife]

Where I came from, quads were used to transport brush and vegetables from a garden, and plots were rarely bigger than an acre. No one was screaming and yelling while they drove it.

I think they transported them outside of neighborhoods to ride freely, so I clearly
am not used to people like my neighbors.

But I'm not complaining, I was just was making an observation. This is definitely a different place to live, but I am thrilled to be here.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by marinewife

Where I came from, quads were used to transport brush and vegetables from a garden, and plots were rarely bigger than an acre. No one was screaming and yelling while they drove it.

I think they transported them outside of neighborhoods to ride freely, so I clearly
am not used to people like my neighbors.

But I'm not complaining, I was just was making an observation. This is definitely a different place to live, but I am thrilled to be here.

First, you certainly dont need to justify your opinion or post, I was just observing the different perspectives we are seeing.

As for the 4 wheeler neighbors, NH has hundreds of miles of trails for snowmobiles and 4 wheelers and many owners ride both on their own property and on the trail systems and put down hunderds of miles of their machines every year.

Cant say anything about the yelling, that certainly does sound a bit redneck, and as with snowmobiles AND Boats, one can only hope their operations is done without alcohol,,,

In the end, we can only hope their use of their vehicles does not conflict too much with your use and enjoyment of your property, and let us not confuse disturbing the peace (loud exhausts, loud music, loud yelling) with reasonable use of a recreation vehicle.

ATB

[Cal-to-NH]

I can certainly see the divide better now. I know a little bit of what's going-on and I can say about 80% of the things said here are flat-out incorrect.

I think maybe the best path forward might be informing people better so these falsehoods don't get repeated.

In the end, I do agree with:
* If we compromized on this issue rather than digging-in we could succeed. (Remember this gets a majority "YES" every time it comes up, but the poliarization of the "camps" keeps it from getting the % Majority it needs). If both sides would give a little, this would easily pass.

I think the $5.2M option and the $6.7M option need to be laid-out together and the additional money justified, dollar by dollar - i.e. for $1.5 M more this is what you get specifically. I have asked for this from ardent supporters of the greater money project and no one can tell me what the extra money gets you other than "everything is on one site". I have to believe that there's more to it than that. If that's all it is, then I would guess most people would reject it.

I have heard some good ideas but I don't know if they are practical - What about going for the bigger-money project and selling the Lions club land to make-up the difference of the more expensive route? That's a great idea, but have no idea if that's a valid option.

What's in the extra $1.5M folks - if it's worth it, pople will vote for it! I will be the first in line. Without that, the $5.2M option does everything we need and want, and why not do this one? The great thing about NH is that we decide how to spend our own money like it's coming out of our own checking account. Higher value for higher money-outlay is a good thing - but what is it????

[winni83]

‘In the end, I do agree with:
* If we compromized on this issue rather than digging-in we could succeed. (Remember this gets a majority "YES" every time it comes up, but the poliarization of the "camps" keeps it from getting the % Majority it needs).“

Your statement that it gets a majority YES every time it comes up is itself incorrect and false At the 2016 Town Meeting the “Recreation Center” in Article 2 received a total of 568 votes, of which 220 were in the affirmative and 348 were in the negative. The affirmative vote was 39% and the negative vote was 61%.

Not sure where you got the data to support your statement.

[tummyman]

Originally Posted by Cal-to-NH

I can certainly see the divide better now. I know a little bit of what's going-on and I can say about 80% of the things said here are flat-out incorrect.

I think maybe the best path forward might be informing people better so these falsehoods don't get repeated.

In the end, I do agree with:
* If we compromized on this issue rather than digging-in we could succeed. (Remember this gets a majority "YES" every time it comes up, but the poliarization of the "camps" keeps it from getting the % Majority it needs). If both sides would give a little, this would easily pass.

I think the $5.2M option and the $6.7M option need to be laid-out together and the additional money justified, dollar by dollar - i.e. for $1.5 M more this is what you get specifically. I have asked for this from ardent supporters of the greater money project and no one can tell me what the extra money gets you other than "everything is on one site". I have to believe that there's more to it than that. If that's all it is, then I would guess most people would reject it.

I have heard some good ideas but I don't know if they are practical - What about going for the bigger-money project and selling the Lions club land to make-up the difference of the more expensive route? That's a great idea, but have no idea if that's a valid option.

What's in the extra $1.5M folks - if it's worth it, pople will vote for it! I will be the first in line. Without that, the $5.2M option does everything we need and want, and why not do this one? The great thing about NH is that we decide how to spend our own money like it's coming out of our own checking account. Higher value for higher money-outlay is a good thing - but what is it????

There certainly are lots of numbers out there. Let me attempt to provide some clarity from what I know. In the 2019 Town Meeting, two proposal were quantified...$5.5M for the Lions site and $6.7M for the Taylor. BOTH were for similar facilities with full gyms, etc. etc. Basic building costs were absolutely identical. But the differences were in significant site costs for the Taylor...site cost increased $850,000, $140,000 for an improved entranceway to the site, approximately $80,000 for increased engineering and design costs, and $50,000 for extra contingencies on the Taylor. Bottom line...building on the Taylor was more expensive ($1.2M) for the exact same facility. o what do you get for the extra $1.2M??? A facility very close to the schools. That's it. The numbers are all on the town web site...under "Projects", then Community Center, then 2019 Proposed Community Center, then Cost Estimate 1/30/2019. Check them out yourself...they are side by side. But also remember, these numbers are now two years old and construction / material costs have sen substantial increases due to Covid, etc. My guess is these are the smallest numbers you will ever see for the project and anything in the future will need to be reworked higher....maybe now $7-8M vs. $6.7M. Time will tell !

Or you can think of buying an existing facility and making modest renovations...i.e: the 130 Whittier property. For less than $2.5M (my estimate), you can get everything proposed for the $5.5M or $6.7M, except the facility is not at the schools. So the bottom line is this....how much is it worth to the community at large to build a full facility on the Taylor? And by the way, the 130 Whittier option could be fully operational by year end 2021...and anything on the Taylor or the Lions is many years off. I suspect the $5.5M and $6.7M numbers are now significantly understated, as construction costs are going through the roof with substantial increases in all building materials...just check out lumber prices! But nobody wants to compromise or even consider a full exploration of the 130 Whittier. There is time, but is there any will? Sad..... So situation is still a mess...spend much more money just for location and wait years to occupy, or spend less and move on with a site that is not next to schools.

Hope this helps...and just my opinion for sure.

[longislander]

Hope this helps...and just my opinion for sure.

More than just an opinion! Good information, made from facts, unlike the norm in Moultonborough. For the record., I became a Moultonborough resident in 1996, but bought property and built a frequently-visited second home in 1974. I'm not a newbie, nor a member of the "MoBo Mob".

Some more facts, supporting the purchase suggestion, regarding the 130 Whittier Hy. site. The present owner bought it on November 7, 2019: ref. Carroll County registry of deeds (online) @ Book 3475 Page 0631.

Tax stamp: $16,538; at $15/$1000, then, purchase price was $1,102,533.
Presently for sale, MLS 4796817, for $1,695,000.

From one of the MLS sites: Price History of 130 Whittier Highway, Moultonborough, NH 3/06/2020 Listing Price $1,695,000

"Data" to make "information":
bought Nov. 2019 for $1,102,533
for sale March 2020 $1,695,000

Looks like the present owner saw/sees the opportunity to make a quick profit.

What if the town made an offer of, say, $1.3 or 1.4 million? Or even paid the list price of $1.7 million, just to make it the "community center". Little fix-up, as good as, or better than past rec.center/gym proposals, on either or both Lions Club/Taylor properties. If the town wants another gym (third?) vote on it, again. Get some more facts out "like" why on town property? Why not on school district property? Legally, different governing bodies. Heck of a lot more available land without easements. What! ... actually a town paid child care center, in fact!

This tread started with:

Moultonborough continues to polarize

Started with the termination of the town administrator, then to gun ranges, on to the Community Center/Gym, on to the Sabanek building.

Why stop there? The Taylor property bought by the town for $249,033 (Registry deed BK/PG 3146/97), as a unique central property that could be the town common/green, like most quaint New England towns. The select board-appointed Heritage Commission, fighting tooth and nail, to preserve the Taylor building. "Like" (being conventional) the town doesn't have enough "historic" buildings. Driving through the center of town is "like" (sic) driving through Appalachia, no offense to Appalachia.

Much more could be added, but won't.

Moultonborough is a town run by @ 200-250 folks, as correctly stated in the past by a sitting select board member. Yes, there is a demographic divide in the town. Yes, it is reflected in the associated differing cultures.

Recognizing that the only common denominator to ... "Moultonborough continues to polarize" ... is people.

Personally speaking, the one truism that is paramount, and that I give a ... about, is town meeting day. The one day a year the town is a true democracy (majority rules), not just a republic (elected officials, right-wrong-indifferent). The rest is entertainment!

Next year's town warrant (2021) should be including the change of town meeting day from March to May, since we've already approved going to a fiscal year. Let's get the snow birds to have a say at town meeting!

[Cal-to-NH]

See, it's stuff like this that can get us to the Services we need and deserve! For what I call SMART MONEY! Observations like yours need to be taken into account!

I still wonder why every parent says to me that it has to be near the school for the kids when the former Rec director - three times in a row (twice at Town Meeting) - began her discussion of a Rec / Community center by saying "You would not build this center for just the kids alone". Her reason was that both schools have gyms, they more than serve the indoor needs of our kids, and the two biggest Rec sign-ups for kids is Soccer and Softball - both outside programs. However there is no rec area for the town residents outside of students. Also she discussed the Meredith center, still relatively new - with indoor walking track, etc.. where the kids just won't have an interest.

I think sometimes we lose track of the fact that we only graduate an average of 35 kids a year from our High School. Two gyms for our kids (and I hear they are vacant a lot) seems to be a good service for our valuable children.

In addition, if you look at the Lions club site, meals-on-wheels, the Woman's club, Quilting club and Men's fellowship meetings, it makes me wonder why it's so important to have all of those at the centralized "one-site" scenario (at additional cost). Let's face it, the Lions club activities are for Blue-hair older folk like me. Is it imperative to have everything at one site? I honestly don't think so. The lions club at $1.6 Million - giving it a lifetime of 30 years and making it American For Disability compliant, and then a Rec/Community Center for $3.6 Million - why is that the end of the world awful?

If I could believe that somehow having everything in one is a must, and having everything in town center is a must, I would be the first to "pony-up" with the extra cash. Yankee conservatism aside - I believe that most of us will treat this like it was out of our own checkbook. Services for our town are important! But we should spend the money smartly.....

[Cal-to-NH]

Sorry I should have been clearer. It's good you noted the 2016 town meeting was a majority NO on the center.

It would have been better if you noted that both 2018 and 2019 were YES (in the majority). So that's where I got my information.

I was using recent information.... I did not intend to ignore the 2016 information

[Merrymeeting]

Originally Posted by longislander

Personally speaking, the one truism that is paramount, and that I give a ... about, is town meeting day. The one day a year the town is a true democracy (majority rules), not just a republic (elected officials, right-wrong-indifferent). The rest is entertainment!

Next year's town warrant (2021) should be including the change of town meeting day from March to May, since we've already approved going to a fiscal year. Let's get the snow birds to have a say at town meeting!

I would agree with you but there is one, key problem with this view. Many times, there have been hearings after hearings, meetings after meetings, discussing an article, all public, where anyone could attend and influence the structure (or defeat) of an article. But no one shows until town meeting time where you either need to spend hours rehashing all the pros and cons that have already been covered in the other meetings, or frustratingly watch as an article is approved or defeated by voters who have not done their homework or taken the time to truly understand the issue.

No one can attend all the meetings. I'm not suggesting that. But if you care about a particular issue, read the meeting minutes, watch the meeting broadcast/video (most are online these days), and don't wait until Town Meeting day for someone to educate you in 5 minutes.

[longislander]

I would agree with you but there is one, key problem with this view.

That is not a problem it is a fact.

Notwithstanding:

No one can attend all the meetings.

don't wait until Town Meeting day for someone to educate you in 5 minutes.

Especially considering the preponderance of speakers with agendas at hearings, town meetings, social media etc.

Fact: There is still a vote with a majority rule (or super majority if statutorily required;e.g. 2/3rds).

Start by attending the town meeting. How a person decides ...