In the Spirit of Compromise....

[Woodsy]

I will take a cue from BI & others.... At the risk absolute futility what kind of compromise would possibly work??

My personal feelings on the Valedmort Bill is that nobody is really happy with they way it currently is. The hi-po guys like myself really cant enjoy our boats, the slow boat folks are ticked there isnt enough enforcement (no tickets yet to date) and lets face it with the budget crunch and the economy boat registrations are way down so the NHMP doesnt really have the resources.

SO what would be the best of both worlds and allow the NHMP to allocate thier resources better?

I suggest we keep the night time speed limit. Almost all of the cataclysmic accidents that are brought up during this debate occured at night. Not saying that a speed limit at night would have prevented these accidents (although not drinking alcohol would have). If people want to debate the MPH thats ok with me. I think 30 would be a reasonable compromise... I see the Weirs town docks and the Meredith town docks practically deserted after dark. I have friends who live in Moultonborough that dont come to the Weirs or Meredith at night anymore because it takes too long to get home! I guess kids can get antsy! LOL! It used to be that you had to wait to park at the Weirs Docks during the summer, nowadays parking at night is not a problem! I am sure nightime visitation is down at all the town docks. I can only assume its a combination of the 25MPH limit and the economy.

The 45MPH daytime limit should be discarded all together. Its a complete waste of the limited NHMP resources. We don't boat vs boat (or boat vs. island) accidents during the day because your visibility is measured in miles!! I would rather have the NHMP allocate resources to catch Capt Boneheads in and around the busy parts of the lake than hanging out hoping to clock the rare boat going faster than 45...

Woodsy

[VtSteve]

There aren't any speed limits for drunks. Not a bad proposal Woodsy, as usual. Safe and Prudent works for me as well. As I recall, both nighttime accidents involving fatalities involved speeds circa 30 mph, with the usual extenuating circumstances. Last years was typical of how legislation cannot prevent everything from going wrong. The infamous accident could have been prevented by friends, people on the dock, including and off duty LEO as I recall.

Accidents will always happen, sometimes it's unpreventable. In the vast majority of cases, alcohol is involved. To fast for condition is another. In my estimate, the MP could easily devote 100% of their time enforcing the 150' rule and still need more help. At night, a more focused approach could be used in the usual areas.

But you and I are approaching this from a common sense, pro-safety approach. The exchange of rational ideas has no place in the SL debates. At some point, I would expect the MP to be giving their marching orders for a crackdown on the 150' limit, specifically trying to get at the more aggressive and careless, and possibly drunk boaters. Spending time trying to harass boaters on the hook or rafting, setting them up by cutting them off, baiting them, is a waste of precious resources they say they don't have. But that's another discussion.

There's a reason people express their raw emotions and fear in the pro SL discussions. There haven't been many accidents to discuss. If last year's accident involved a 20' bowrider, discussion would have been pretty muted.

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

If last year's accident involved a 20' bowrider, discussion would have been pretty muted.

Most NH residents would find that statement a little hard to swallow. Here is a woman who rallied the anti SL crowd touting safety as her organization's purpose. She collected a great deal of money to fight proposed SL legislation.She made a comfortable living hawking boats able to go considerably faster than 45 MPH. Now it seems clear that alcohol was involved( and even if it hadn't been, reasonable and prudent behavior seems not to have been exercised that night). The story made national headlines. It is a tragic and sad story of how 2 lives were ruined.So here on this forum, one compromise mentioned by Woodsy was 30 MPH at night ("which would give you leeway for 35 MPH"). This forum is rife with advice on how to get away with breaking the speed limit, posts bragging about how the SL hasn't slowed them down, etc. It just seems a bit hypocritical to me. And in just 2 months her trial will begin, just at a time when the Sl debate/legislative process will be getting underway as well. Kind of a sad juxtaposition. It seems like 45 MPH was the compromise and I can't imagine that in a few years all the other lakes won't follow suit.

[VtSteve]

Well Sunset, there certainly was irony in the accident given the obvious circumstances. More than one irony in fact. Regardless of what the marina sold, it wasn't what she was piloting. Regardless of the numerical value of the speed limit that passed was, it wouldn't have been appropriate for the conditions that night.

The utter irony of all, is that "most" speed limit proponents have stated this from the beginning, particularly concerning the aforementioned accident. So while I can sympathize with your feelings, I can't equate to the logic used.

If you have accidents involving alcohol, bad conditions or the like, asking for speed limits seems to be a stretch of common sense. Why don't they adopt them everywhere? Maybe they should in some places, and in others, maybe they see no problem. Perhaps you can point out which rules of navigation were apparently not followed properly in last year's accident. You could go back to the next oldest accident and do the same.

Once that's done, perhaps you can relate all of the violations of the 150' rule, NWZ rules, and whatever else has been brought up, to numerical values of speed.

Look, I'm not stupid, I realize why the SL crowd did what they did. But even the environmentally savvy crowd realizes they made a huge mistake promoting bottled water, and has changed their minds. Same with ethanol. Deal with the problems, not what you want everyone to Think is the problem.

You may find my statement hard to swallow, but it's been proven to be true time after time. Virtually no SL supporter has participated in any discussions related to safety, PWC hitting a moored boat, none of that. I find it extremely hard to swallow that you're pointing to hypocrisy, yet you have no posts in any of the safety-related forums I can find. Until proven different, I find that the most rabid supporters of the SL itself rarely, if ever mention safety on the water, or how to promote it.

That sir, is hwy you're not taken seriously in any boating debate.

Originally Posted by Woodsy

I will take a cue from BI & others.... At the risk absolute futility what kind of compromise would possibly work??

My personal feelings on the Valedmort Bill is that nobody is really happy with they way it currently is. The hi-po guys like myself really cant enjoy our boats, the slow boat folks are ticked there isnt enough enforcement (no tickets yet to date) and lets face it with the budget crunch and the economy boat registrations are way down so the NHMP doesnt really have the resources.

SO what would be the best of both worlds and allow the NHMP to allocate thier resources better?

I suggest we keep the night time speed limit. Almost all of the cataclysmic accidents that are brought up during this debate occured at night. Not saying that a speed limit at night would have prevented these accidents (although not drinking alcohol would have). If people want to debate the MPH thats ok with me. I think 30 would be a reasonable compromise... I see the Weirs town docks and the Meredith town docks practically deserted after dark. I have friends who live in Moultonborough that dont come to the Weirs or Meredith at night anymore because it takes too long to get home! I guess kids can get antsy! LOL! It used to be that you had to wait to park at the Weirs Docks during the summer, nowadays parking at night is not a problem! I am sure nightime visitation is down at all the town docks. I can only assume its a combination of the 25MPH limit and the economy.

The 45MPH daytime limit should be discarded all together. Its a complete waste of the limited NHMP resources. We don't boat vs boat (or boat vs. island) accidents during the day because your visibility is measured in miles!! I would rather have the NHMP allocate resources to catch Capt Boneheads in and around the busy parts of the lake than hanging out hoping to clock the rare boat going faster than 45...

Woodsy

Sir,
I think 45MPH is already a perfect compromise. It's certainly very fast in a boat (by the speed limit opposer's own count it is faster than over 95% of the boats on the lake can even go), and the law only applies to one lake in the entire state. Most people who had not gone that fast are amazed at how fast it really is in a boat the first time they are given such a ride. Most skiers cannot ski over 30, let alone 45. Not a single performance boat manufactured in the past 20 years claims a planing speed over 20, so those cruising around with their trims and bows up to make huge wakes in an effort to sabotage are just wasting gas. Certainly the whole of Newfound or Sunapee each approximate the size of the Broads of Winnipesaukee, so those who want go faster have plenty of open water in the state to do it on (besides our substantial "offshore" and Great Bay). And the Newport Police chief was one of the biggest opponents to a speed limit on Sunapee, so I assume the people out there would welcome more performance boaters. 45 is more than fast enough already for any reasonable boating activity on a lake that has so much traffic and people.
I disagree wholeheartedly with the attempts to say people are not happy with the impact of the SL or those (sometimes the very same individuls) who say the SL is doing nothing at all (which is it?). Most of the boaters I meet at the marina (admittedly not Channel or Silver Sands), all of the sailors and salmon fishermen I know (and there are a lot of those) and almost all of the residents I talk to around town have noticed a huge improvement in the civility on the lake this year (with the SL) and last year (with the test), are spending more time on the lake this year, and do not want things to go back...even an inch. We keep hearing how quiet things are on the lake this year, but if you look, you will see just as many boats. When the economy and weather are better, we should see many more boats than in recent years...but I'll bet the lake will still be quieter...and seem safer.
It seems pretty obvious, except if one only gets his news from this forum and the few who dominate it, that the vast majority of the boating public feels very happy with the current law and does not care how many tickets are issued. What difference could that make to anyone who is not just out for revenge? Who told you "slow boat folks are ticked there isnt enough enforcement (no tickets yet to date)." ? People are obeying the law (for the most part) and that is all we really care about.
45 mph daytime and 25 mph nighttime on only one lake in a state with several hundred is a fine compromise, and is working out just fine for everyone except the few who would probably not be satisfied if the limit was 95.

[brk-lnt]

I suggest everyone be required to take a Power Squadron class before boating on the lake (including the MPs).

MPs are trained to enforce actual violations. No entrapment and garbage like forcing 150' violations.

No tickets/fines for non-compliance with laws. Instead you get warning 1st offense, 2nd offense is loss of boating rights on lake for 7 days, 3rd offense is 1 month loss of boating privileges.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by elchase

Sir,
I think 45MPH is already a perfect compromise. It's certainly very fast in a boat (by the speed limit opposer's own count it is faster than over 95% of the boats on the lake can even go), and the law only applies to one lake in the entire state. Most people who had not gone that fast are amazed at how fast it really is in a boat the first time they are given such a ride. Most skiers cannot ski over 30, let alone 45. Not a single performance boat manufactured in the past 20 years claims a planing speed over 20, so those cruising around with their trims and bows up to make huge wakes in an effort to sabotage are just wasting gas. Certainly the whole of Newfound or Sunapee each approximate the size of the Broads of Winnipesaukee, so those who want go faster have plenty of open water in the state to do it on (besides our substantial "offshore" and Great Bay). And the Newport Police chief was one of the biggest opponents to a speed limit on Sunapee, so I assume the people out there would welcome more performance boaters. 45 is more than fast enough already for any reasonable boating activity on a lake that has so much traffic and people.
I disagree wholeheartedly with the attempts to say people are not happy with the impact of the SL or those (sometimes the very same individuls) who say the SL is doing nothing at all (which is it?). Most of the boaters I meet at the marina (admittedly not Channel or Silver Sands), all of the sailors and salmon fishermen I know (and there are a lot of those) and almost all of the residents I talk to around town have noticed a huge improvement in the civility on the lake this year (with the SL) and last year (with the test), are spending more time on the lake this year, and do not want things to go back...even an inch. We keep hearing how quiet things are on the lake this year, but if you look, you will see just as many boats. When the economy and weather are better, we should see many more boats than in recent years...but I'll bet the lake will still be quieter...and seem safer.
It seems pretty obvious, except if one only gets his news from this forum and the few who dominate it, that the vast majority of the boating public feels very happy with the current law and does not care how many tickets are issued. What difference could that make to anyone who is not just out for revenge? Who told you "slow boat folks are ticked there isnt enough enforcement (no tickets yet to date)." ? People are obeying the law (for the most part) and that is all we really care about.
45 mph daytime and 25 mph nighttime on only one lake in a state with several hundred is a fine compromise, and is working out just fine for everyone except the few who would probably not be satisfied if the limit was 95.

El,

I don't know if people are or are not breaking the SL, all we know is no citations have been written. I think I understand your position on the SL, but what about the real safety issues? I have seen more violations than ever before. As I was driving through Center Harbor Saturday, I noted a half dozen or more violations and bonehead moves in the 5 minutes that I watched, even though the speeds looked OK.

I guess the frustration on my part is that I think that the SL was another piece of feel good legislation- I would have been satisfied had the legislature voted a much higher appropriation for enforcement of the existing rules and laws. I really don't care if a boat is going 45 or 55 when it's 30' off my port side!

Originally Posted by VitaBene

El,

I don't know if people are or are not breaking the SL, all we know is no citations have been written. I think I understand your position on the SL, but what about the real safety issues? I have seen more violations than ever before. As I was driving through Center Harbor Saturday, I noted a half dozen or more violations and bonehead moves in the 5 minutes that I watched, even though the speeds looked OK.

I guess the frustration on my part is that I think that the SL was another piece of feel good legislation- I would have been satisfied had the legislature voted a much higher appropriation for enforcement of the existing rules and laws. I really don't care if a boat is going 45 or 55 when it's 30' off my port side!

I just don't understand why everyone I meet who uses the lake more casually is saying how much this year's SL and last year's test helped bring civility back to the lake, and all those on this forum (who almost unanimously opposed the SL) are seeing all this mayhem and all these violations. I'm on the lake at least thirty hours a week this summer, and have seen maybe two incidences of bonehead behavior (not counting all the performance boats cruising around with their trims up to make big wakes on purpose) and a handful of SL violators. This compares to the incident-per-minute rate I've witnessed in past years
And my failure to understand is compounded when the same people say on one thread that the SL is having all this negative impact, then on another thread saying it is doing nothing but wasting enforcement dollars (which is it?). And the people saying it wastes those enforcement dollars say on another thread that the MP is not even bothering to enforce and is spending all their time entrapping people into passage violations (which is it?).
My observations are my observations, and I am as entitled to share them as you guys are. My opinions are my opinions, and I am as entitle to express them as you guys are. I refuse to just back and shut up when I read stuff here by a decidedly biased group that so blatantly conflicts with what I am seeing out on the lake. And trying to ram down our throats the notions that 1) things are still crazy out there despite the SL, even though the SL has chased all the boats off the lake (which is it?), 2) There are more violations this year because of the SL, even though going slower is making you all waste so much gas (which is it?), 3) the SL is ruining the shorefront, even though you are still going as fast as you want (which is it?), 4) the SL is destroying the local economy, even though you are ignoring it anyway (which is it?), and 5) all these other contradictions. Most of what I read here disagrees with what most of us who are out on the lake day after day year after year have witnessed, and might fly with your comrades and the naive, but is not going to intimidate the rest of society into buying it.
I'm sorry if my opinion and my boating interests differ from yours. But my passive boating activities never interfered with yours the way yours did with mine, and I simply do not want to see us take a giant step backwards to the mayhem of 2007 and before. The SL is indeed making us feel good, and I like feeling good. You guys should consider the impact your aggressive activities have on others before telling us why we are wrong in opposing them.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by elchase

I just don't understand why everyone I meet who uses the lake more casually is saying how much this year's SL and last year's test helped bring civility back to the lake, and all those on this forum (who almost unanimously opposed the SL) are seeing all this mayhem and all these violations. I'm on the lake at least thirty hours a week this summer, and have seen maybe two incidences of bonehead behavior (not counting all the performance boats cruising around with their trims up to make big wakes on purpose) and a handful of SL violators. This compares to the incident-per-minute rate I've witnessed in past years
And my failure to understand is compounded when the same people say on one thread that the SL is having all this negative impact, then on another thread saying it is doing nothing but wasting enforcement dollars (which is it?). And the people saying it wastes those enforcement dollars say on another thread that the MP is not even bothering to enforce and is spending all their time entrapping people into passage violations (which is it?).
My observations are my observations, and I am as entitled to share them as you guys are. My opinions are my opinions, and I am as entitle to express them as you guys are. I refuse to just back and shut up when I read stuff here by a decidedly biased group that so blatantly conflicts with what I am seeing out on the lake. And trying to ram down our throats the notions that 1) things are still crazy out there despite the SL, even though the SL has chased all the boats off the lake (which is it?), 2) There are more violations this year because of the SL, even though going slower is making you all waste so much gas (which is it?), 3) the SL is ruining the shorefront, even though you are still going as fast as you want (which is it?), 4) the SL is destroying the local economy, even though you are ignoring it anyway (which is it?), and 5) all these other contradictions. Most of what I read here disagrees with what most of us who are out on the lake day after day year after year have witnessed, and might fly with your comrades and the naive, but is not going to intimidate the rest of society into buying it.
I'm sorry if my opinion and my boating interests differ from yours. But my passive boating activities never interfered with yours the way yours did with mine, and I simply do not want to see us take a giant step backwards to the mayhem of 2007 and before. The SL is indeed making us feel good, and I like feeling good. You guys should consider the impact your aggressive activities have on others before telling us why we are wrong in opposing them.

Obviously you have your rose colored glasses on if you say you are on the lake 30 hours a week and have only seen 2 violations.

Quite frankly, I take huge issue with your intimation of how my boating effected yours. Your use of passive versus active is patently false. If you are on the lake and are moving, whether it be swimming, sailing, paddling, or powerboating, you are actively using the lake. You have decided to take on the role of arbitrar of what is good and evil regarding boating on our lake. Get off your high horse, you have not grasped the fact that virtually everyone that you argue with on this forum are not performance boaters- we are the fathers you waxed poetically about who are taking our kids tubing. Stop trying to put people in a box.

I challenge you to find one post of mine that is contradictory in the manner you describe.

[VtSteve]

If the weather co-operates, I'll hopefully be able to hitch a ride and be on the lake in less than three weeks. I'll bone up on my video skills, and at least log the fun. Obviously, weekdays are much different than weekends, which is why lakefront owners can definitely have different reactions.

I'm still amazed at the lack of boats here on a much larger lake, weekends or not. It's not because they're so spread out either, it's more like many stay in the bays. I remember well the trouble spots in my old areas. Paugus Bay, the Weirs, the area between Meredith Neck and Bear Island.

There are many sane, completely responsible people on these forums. The VAST majority do not get to 45 mph that much, some not at all. Sometimes, statements in the past made here have to be taken in context of the full discussion. A difficult task given the shear number of posts. For instance, some were arguing about erosion and GF boats in the same sentence. This, of course, made no sense. They produce much larger wakes going 20 than at 60. So we joked about erosion a bit, had some laughs, some intellectual baiting if you will.

When you make statements like this,

You guys should consider the impact your aggressive activities have on others before telling us why we are wrong in opposing them.

you really need to step back. I say that only because I'd like more people to participate in the discussion, not the antics. You have every right to say whatever you want, but I'm here to tell you right now, it ain't working far ya. You're accusing people of being aggressive that continuously talk about safety, have bowriders, pontoon boats, cuddy cabins and the like. Last I looked, we hadn't made it to the Miami Vice stage yet

Before you go making all sorts of outlandish accusations about posts and posters, you should try and address individual posts and posters directly. I made the mistake once of lumping everyone into one category or another, and I was wrong.

So here we are, many long time posters discussing on the Captain Bonehead and Safety threads what's going on while out on the water. Your own experience, and from what you say, many others, differs. OK Perhaps people's times out on the lake are different. Do you boat mostly weekdays? Is your area just better than many others? If that's so, it would be valuable information for the MP to concentrate their limited resources on specific areas at certain times.


Good, constructive thread for the Safety thread everyone. Perhaps the MP can read up on what boaters are concerned about.

[OCDACTIVE]

elchase,

First welcome to the forums. By all means those who disagree with you are not trying to chase you away or are calling you wrong. There is no right or wrong when dealing with opinions. As you have said your opinions are your opinions and your observations are your observations.. But what many people contend is that people are trying to call opinions fact. Thus trying to move people or change peoples arguements.

In my own opinion it is very difficult to say "people say" or "the majority of people in the lakes region think" etc. because normally people tend to befriend or associate with those with similar likes or interests. As an example if you are big into sailing then you probably have friends who are as well. If you talk to or poll those individuals the vast majority would be Pro-SL. If you have a family run about on the lake, in all likelyhood the majority of the people you associate with are in the same boat (no pun intended). Given there will be exceptions to the rule but I am sure you can see my point.

So to say that most people or the majority of people think or say XYZ is difficult to claim. As is the opinion of "most" people are happy with the limits.

As you have probably seen from previous posts I am opposed to the limits and if someone asks me I could easily say Most people oppose because from my observations almost everyone I know or associate with does not think they are needed. It is just a matter of perception.

That being said, I will say that "In MY opinion" the 45 MPH is not a perfect compromise. I have read the suggestion of opening up the broads. I think that is a perfectly fair compromise. I disagree with it, but I'd be willing to accept it. I think there are far larger problems then speed i.e. captain boneheads and people not paying attention to their surroundings then where limits do not even play a roll.

You mention that 45 is fast enough for a "reasonable boating activity". Again this is an opinion. My question is what do you consider reasonable? I think cruising to a resturant across the broads at 60 in my type of boat is perfectly reasonable.

What I find again is that many opinions are based on the individual owners determination of "fast" based on their own boat. For example if you have a 21 foot 1982 Century with a 260, when the boat is a WOT (wide open throttle) it gets up to approx. 46mph. The boat is bouncing around and is very loud in comparrison to its normal cruising speed of 30ish. With my boat cruising at 3600 rpms I will be at 50 mph. At that speed I am perfectly comfortable and well in control. Passengers can talk and have sodas while enjoying the lake. So that being said it is a "reasonable boating activity" for me. Where an individual with a boat that is 17 feet long crusing comfortably at 22 mph that gets passed by me may not realize it feels the same.

I have discussed limits for years now with individuals. In many situations those in favor of limits (even once with a MP officer) I offer to take them for a ride. In doing so we go across "cruising" and they are astounded the control and how slow you feel you are going in a performance boat at 45 or 55 mph.

It becomes upsetting to me and friends of mine, that those passing the laws and those in favor of limits have never been on or experienced a performance boat. Now you may have, but I am just making a generalization.

That being said, I invite you at anytime (once my boat is fixed) to take a ride if you have not experienced a performance boat ride. You may feel differently.

[Kracken]

OCDACTIVE,

I 100% agree with you, so does that mean I can't get a ride?

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Kracken

OCDACTIVE,

I 100% agree with you, so does that mean I can't get a ride?

Once she is fixed absolutely.. Nothing pleases me more then showing someone who has never been out on a GFB and then seeing the permagrin on their face.

[VtSteve]

Hey wait a minute!! You promised me first

Are you telling me you're not going to be at the Naswa on August 21 or 22?

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Hey wait a minute!! You promised me first

Are you telling me you're not going to be at the Naswa on August 21 or 22?

Sorry man... Even if I was there I blew my engine

getting a complete rebuild this winter and having the supercharger removed... I will be slower (mid 70's) but much more reliable... also if all goes according to plan she won't be the mighty whitey anymore...... Paint job will happen as well!!!!!

[ApS]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

"...Even if I was there I blew my engine

What speed did it blow up at?

Allow me a guess: It was the valve train, right? While "Detroit Iron" may take a supercharging, "Detroit Iron" can't take the revs.

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

"...getting a complete rebuild...slower (mid 70's) but much more reliable...Paint job will happen as well...!!!!!"

Try painting one side red and the other side blue: If you are reported by a law-abiding resident as exceeding "mid-70s", you'd reduce the chance of being stopped by the MPs by 50%.

BTW: Too few "complete rebuilds" support New Hampshire Lakes Region businesses.

I would also advise that boaters don't spend too much on paint (or "graphics") where they might encounter other boats at the docks.

Odometer?

[Kracken]

I bought a new boat this spring (a family truckster, top speed 60). I was originally looking at a boat that might be considered a performance boat (Powerquest 25'). I went with the truckster due to the speed limit, it may have been a mistake. A ride in performance boat may make me trade mine in way earlier than I could have imagined.

[Airwaves]

Once again I bring your attention to Navigation Rule 6. It is flexible and it gives MPO more authority to get dangerous boaters off the water.

It works well in the ocean and in most states, there is no reason it can't work here. Attach penalties to it, link it a drivers license etc. to give it teeth.

And I would suggest it be approved statewide, not specifically to New Hampshire's LARGEST body of water.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Once again I bring your attention to Navigation Rule 6. It is flexible and it gives MPO more authority to get dangerous boaters off the water.

Adopting the above rule and keeping the reasonable and prudent clause of the current law will go a long way to helping keep navigable waters in this state safe.

I strongly believe the Power Squadron test as well as the Boater's safety test will promote more common sense to all boaters.

Setting arbitrary limits such as 45/25 does nothing to promote safety. One will think he/she will have to drive 25 at night because it is the law. In fact it could be a very dangerous speed due to adverse conditions. Arbitrary speed limits gives a false sense of comfort. Even at 45, you can be driving dangerously under the conditions you are boating in.

[OCDACTIVE]

WOW VTSTEVE.. Great post, I think you had hit all the major points. You have been saving up it seems since the SL debate had been put on hold.

Keep up the great work.!!!

[LIforrelaxin]

Well First let me thank Woodsy for starting this thread....

Second I like the post I am seeing here....

Third....Right now I am seeing that speedster as some would call them, OCD and Woodsy, are showing that they are willing to talk about this, and that is what comprimise is all about

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

That being said, I will say that "In MY opinion" the 45 MPH is not a perfect compromise. I have read the suggestion of opening up the broads. I think that is a perfectly fair compromise. I disagree with it, but I'd be willing to accept it. I think there are far larger problems then speed i.e. captain boneheads and people not paying attention to their surroundings then where limits do not even play a roll.

You mention that 45 is fast enough for a "reasonable boating activity". Again this is an opinion. My question is what do you consider reasonable? I think cruising to a resturant across the broads at 60 in my type of boat is perfectly reasonable.

.

OCD, I only quoted part of you post here but you have put some good stuff out there.... By the way also sorry to here about the boat... that really stinks....hope you rebuild goes well.....

Now onto the snipit that I took from OCD

Openning up the boards is a start to comprimise OCD..... it is the one place, that I feel should not be ruled by a speed limit.....because it is wide open with plenty of room I have never ever been out there when I felt any danger from other boats no matter how fast they where going.... It however is not the only place that I feel should be left out of speed consideration.... in fact my thoughts have always been leave the lake with out a speed restriction except for certain locations:

1) Meredith --- already taken care off
2) the area around the weirs channel... say the imaginary line form the lighted bouy to the town docks, just like the bike week restriction
3)Wolfeboro Bay ---- make a line like was done for Meredith
4) possibly Center Harbor and Alton....

After that speed limits in my mind are worthless, just need to create a few more no-wake zones in the congested areas, via the Meredith Method or the Eagle / Governs island method.....

Now I also liked Woodsy idea..... speed limit at night.... I thought the way Woodsy came up with the 30 mph was reasonable.... however I could even see 35.....or maybe jsut modifying the 150' rule to say 500' at night or something.... I don't think speed is as much an issue at night, as people being able to judge proximity..... I have never seen anyone go what I would call exsessively fast at night..... even the night I had an issue (no accident just a close call from my stand point)..... speed was not an issue, we where both comming up on plane, the other boater just didn't judge well how far he was away from me when he turned and cut accross in front of me.....

[VtSteve]

RULE 6 - UNITED STATES COAST GUARD

RULE 6
SAFE SPEED
Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.

In determining a safe speed the following factors shall be among those taken into account:

(a) By all vessels:

The state of visibility;
The traffic density including concentrations of fishing vessels or any other vessels;
The manageability of the vessel with special reference to stopping distance and turning ability in the prevailing conditions;
At night, the presence of background light such as from shore lights or from back scatter from her own lights;
The state of wind, sea and current, and the proximity of navigational hazards;
The draft in relation to the available depth of water.
(b)Additionally, by vessels with operational radar:

The characteristics, efficiency and limitations of the radar equipment;
Any constraints imposed by the radar range scale in use;
The effect on radar detection of the sea state, weather and other sources of interference;
The possibility that small vessels, ice and other floating objects may not be detected by radar at an adequate range;
The number, location and movement of vessels detected by radar;
The more exact assessment of the visibility that may be possible when radar is used to determine the range of vessels or other objects in the vicinity.


Basically, a more detailed, yet less legalese version of the current Winni law. I think they'd do well to add more detail into the current bill. Either way, it does assist the MP with their duties.

Another aspect, enforcement. There are two other threads, one dealing with problems on the lake, and another that suggests improper enforcement. There are differing opinions on both topics. So when I get done doing some actual work , I'm going to see if we actually know what's really going on out there. It's always hard to come up with solutions if you really don't know what the problems are, if any.

[gtagrip]

Originally Posted by elchase

I just don't understand why everyone I meet who uses the lake more casually is saying how much this year's SL and last year's test helped bring civility back to the lake, and all those on this forum (who almost unanimously opposed the SL) are seeing all this mayhem and all these violations. I'm on the lake at least thirty hours a week this summer, and have seen maybe two incidences of bonehead behavior (not counting all the performance boats cruising around with their trims up to make big wakes on purpose) and a handful of SL violators. This compares to the incident-per-minute rate I've witnessed in past years
And my failure to understand is compounded when the same people say on one thread that the SL is having all this negative impact, then on another thread saying it is doing nothing but wasting enforcement dollars (which is it?). And the people saying it wastes those enforcement dollars say on another thread that the MP is not even bothering to enforce and is spending all their time entrapping people into passage violations (which is it?).
My observations are my observations, and I am as entitled to share them as you guys are. My opinions are my opinions, and I am as entitle to express them as you guys are. I refuse to just back and shut up when I read stuff here by a decidedly biased group that so blatantly conflicts with what I am seeing out on the lake. And trying to ram down our throats the notions that 1) things are still crazy out there despite the SL, even though the SL has chased all the boats off the lake (which is it?), 2) There are more violations this year because of the SL, even though going slower is making you all waste so much gas (which is it?), 3) the SL is ruining the shorefront, even though you are still going as fast as you want (which is it?), 4) the SL is destroying the local economy, even though you are ignoring it anyway (which is it?), and 5) all these other contradictions. Most of what I read here disagrees with what most of us who are out on the lake day after day year after year have witnessed, and might fly with your comrades and the naive, but is not going to intimidate the rest of society into buying it.
I'm sorry if my opinion and my boating interests differ from yours. But my passive boating activities never interfered with yours the way yours did with mine, and I simply do not want to see us take a giant step backwards to the mayhem of 2007 and before. The SL is indeed making us feel good, and I like feeling good. You guys should consider the impact your aggressive activities have on others before telling us why we are wrong in opposing them.

I find it amazing that this SL law has all of a sudden with last years test and this years implemation has made it Shagri-La out there. Mass. has been trying to get people to buckle up for the last year or so and they are having trouble "obey" this law to buckle up.
I'm not buying it!

[The Big Kahuna]

Originally Posted by gtagrip

I find it amazing that this SL law has all of a sudden with last years test and this years implemation has made it Shagri-La out there. Mass. has been trying to get people to buckle up for the last year or so and they are having trouble "obey" this law to buckle up.
I'm not buying it!

I have been out and about all summer in my GFBL, I personally have only gone over the speed limit twice this summer, once on my first trip out on the lake this year, my wife had to remind me of the speed limit because, forgot about it, and the second time I was out running a rain storm. I seem to be the only one out there not speeding, I am being passed left and right by everyone while I cruze around at 40, does everyone even know there is a speed limit because I have seem some monster boats going 80 + every time I have been out there, and smaller boats as well flying around at 50 +. I guess its like Rt 93, speed limit is 55 in some areas, but 75 - 80 seems fine to most.

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by FatLazyLess

I saw this boat today, it's about 50' long, and was roaring past Governor's Island. It's huge and has an enclosed cabin with a sunshine roof, just like an expensive car. Could be it even has air conditioning and heat.


Small boats give you a feeling of being close to the water. Large boats with huge noisy engines give you a feeling of detachment from the water. It was so big and fast that it was like in a totally different league than all the other nearby boats. A good one for Arnold in a"Terminator" movie....rrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

Like the differance between an F-18 fighter jet, and a little Piper Cub airplane......totally different league......and another reason why the legislature and governor are likely to revisit the 45-25 speed limit.

The next group of boaters in their sights...large cruisers!

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

"...The next group of boaters in their sights...large cruisers...!"

A disingenuous charge against Supporters: when excessive speed encounters oversized wakes, bad things happen.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

A disingenuous charge against Supporters: when excessive speed encounters oversized wakes, bad things happen.

I really don't think "Disingenuous" is the proper term. It's directed at the obvious continuation of such a group. Large cruiser wakes have been the bane of smaller boats since forever, not to mention shorefront property owners.

To get to where BI wants to be, and other supporters like yourself, you'd end up with all smaller boats with smaller engines, no cruisers, skiers going 18 mph behind fishing boats, and a ton of sailboats. As it is, most cruise between 25 and 35 mph, you slow down for large cruiser wakes, and sailboats continue on their merry way. Sailboats are also popular due to the nature of fuel expenses, and, boomers have more time to sail than before.

Disingenuous would be to drag your true feelings out for years, leaving bits and pieces of your agenda as trail markers. Disingenuous would be to indicate that the lake has calmed down markedly since your favorite law was passed, and then admit that boaters cruise rapidly through a NWZ daily still. Disingenuous would be to make it appear that there were accidents everywhere before the law, and never bring up actual accidents that did occur. Followed by a more than likely 25 or 30 mph accident at night, and label it high-speed.

Disingenuous actions by the supporter crowd are so numerous, and so constant, that their actions have to be stealth and surprise, erroneous reports, and outright lies to the media laced with scare tactics to the public. These are common tactics by people of low character, or ones that only seek to fulfill an agenda. The entire argument highlights what's wrong with many issues that confront the nation today. Many people seem to be trained in the political art of lying and fabrication. One of the primary reasons that nothing positive gets done, nor do many of the original issues said to be addressed, get addressed.

There was a real opportunity to actually do something positive for the lake and the people, but a small group of well-funded individuals that hates one group, decided to make it their own. The next two years will be enlightening, and I doubt that group will rise to the occasion.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

A disingenuous charge against Supporters: when excessive speed encounters oversized wakes, bad things happen.

Not if you know what you are doing...

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by elchase

I just don't understand why everyone I meet who uses the lake more casually is saying how much this year's SL and last year's test helped bring civility back to the lake, and all those on this forum (who almost unanimously opposed the SL) are seeing all this mayhem and all these violations. I'm on the lake at least thirty hours a week this summer, and have seen maybe two incidences of bonehead behavior (not counting all the performance boats cruising around with their trims up to make big wakes on purpose) and a handful of SL violators. This compares to the incident-per-minute rate I've witnessed in past years
And my failure to understand is compounded when the same people say on one thread that the SL is having all this negative impact, then on another thread saying it is doing nothing but wasting enforcement dollars (which is it?). And the people saying it wastes those enforcement dollars say on another thread that the MP is not even bothering to enforce and is spending all their time entrapping people into passage violations (which is it?).
My observations are my observations, and I am as entitled to share them as you guys are. My opinions are my opinions, and I am as entitle to express them as you guys are. I refuse to just back and shut up when I read stuff here by a decidedly biased group that so blatantly conflicts with what I am seeing out on the lake. And trying to ram down our throats the notions that 1) things are still crazy out there despite the SL, even though the SL has chased all the boats off the lake (which is it?), 2) There are more violations this year because of the SL, even though going slower is making you all waste so much gas (which is it?), 3) the SL is ruining the shorefront, even though you are still going as fast as you want (which is it?), 4) the SL is destroying the local economy, even though you are ignoring it anyway (which is it?), and 5) all these other contradictions. Most of what I read here disagrees with what most of us who are out on the lake day after day year after year have witnessed, and might fly with your comrades and the naive, but is not going to intimidate the rest of society into buying it.
I'm sorry if my opinion and my boating interests differ from yours. But my passive boating activities never interfered with yours the way yours did with mine, and I simply do not want to see us take a giant step backwards to the mayhem of 2007 and before. The SL is indeed making us feel good, and I like feeling good. You guys should consider the impact your aggressive activities have on others before telling us why we are wrong in opposing them.

el I couldn't disagree more with you. I live on the lake all summer long and I can only assume you are boating on weekdays between 5 and 8 pm. Other than that I have witnessed the absolute worst boating displays EVER this year. Please for you and your friends sake do not spread the word the the lake is somehow magically safer this year as you will be putting yourself and your friends lives at serious risk. As an islander I can tell you I boat way more than the average boater as it is my primary source of transportation. My 25 foot bowrider capable of a shade faster than 47MPH is my car. I am subjected to seeing the absolute worst of the worst and I can tell you that this lake is VERY dangerous right now. I was absolutely horrified on Saturday. Pulling out of my dock felt like getting on to I-95. Tubers in channels with kids in the water. Boats 25-35 feet away from each other. An idiot on a Jet Ski with two others on it cut across my bow less than 25 feet. First time I ever used my horn like a car horn. It worked and the kid waved. He thought I was saying hello! This lake is absolutely NOT safer. I started boating on the lake in around 1981. I've driven everything from a tin boat to the Doris E. herself. I can tell you from experience that things have gone way downhill in the past few years and I am getting scared going out on a Saturday. Let me add that not ONE Performance boat has been involved in any of these situations, not ONE! So I am sick and tired of the allegations that pin it on those guys. I am not one of them I am merely a frustrated boater. Frustrated with legislation that DID NOT address the Real problems of the lake. I am actually beyond frustrated and more pissed off than anything. I drive around the lake wondering how all these people passed a boat test????? The bill that was passed has had absolutely no affect on the safety of the lake. I am appalled at how crazy the lake is. YUP I said it "Crazy" I used the term you used. I agree wholeheartedly that the lake is crazy right now. But it is the idiots in the family boat dragging their kids in a channel. It is the bass fisherman coming a few feet up my side waving as he passes me, it is the jetskier cutting across my bow, it is the guy who has NO CLUE that I have the right of way when he is cutting across my bow from the left and I have to stop to avoid killing my family, it is the idiot in the pontoon boat who tired to pass me in a no wake zone (he was on plane). FYI most of this occurred yesterday!!
So please do us all a favor and take off the rose colored glasses because I just can't believe we are boating on the same lake??? This law addresses NOTHING it has done NOTHING! Things are worse.

[tis]

I totally agree with you Hazelnut. It is the worst I have ever seen this year too. Today a jet ski was acting really crazy, making big wakes, going close to shore and boats, yelling at people, etc. He must have been drunk. I don't know if I have ever seen such a display! MP came by for a while and sat, I wondered if someone called, but he missed him. The jetskiier came back after he had left. I truly wish he had gotten him, he was absolutely out of control!

[ishoot308]

With all the boating irresponsibility I have personally witnessed the last couple weekends, I must agree also with Hazelnut.

Then the straw that broke the camels back came yesterday when someone rammed into my boat at the public docks in Glendale and took off without a note or anything. It wasn't massive damage but it was damage, and this happened right in front of Marine Patrol headquarters!!

The continual blatant disregard of simple boating regulations and personal moral values by a select few "boneheads" is occurring on the lake and I don't see how anyone can expect this type of boater to respect or follow any new rules or regulations... I am at a loss.

FWIW;

Dan

[Resident 2B]

Although during the weekdays I have seen much lower numbers of boaters yielding a very empty and safe lake, the few weekend days with good weather have been wild. Total lack of regard of the 150' rule and a high number of operators having no idea of stand-on/give way.

I have a very hard time thinking how anyone can say the boating is safer this year other than during the week when the numbers are noiticably down. You really need to factor the reduced numbers in.

The weekends have been worse that I remember as far as safety, and the weekend numbers are still down as far as boats moving on the lake.

I do my boating out of the Weirs and see most of the Center Harbor, Weirs, Alton side of the lake. Perhaps it is location?

Sorry for this off topic post. I felt I needed to respond to the post that stated all was much safer this year thanking the Speed Limit. That clearly is not true.

How about getting back on topic - the spirit of compromise!

R2B

[ApS]

Originally Posted by onlywinni

"...I also have news for you...the big cabin cruisers on the lake throw a much bigger wake than my Baja does and dont even get me started on the wakes created by the Mt. Wash and the Doris E..."

1) While I'm boating, the Mt. Washington passes me once or twice a day: Unless you're really close, its wake is very nearly undetectable. (The Mt. is a really bad example for wakes).

Someone along Rattlesnake Island can check out just how bad it is at the shoreline, where it "shallows up" and increases its effect. I think most RS residents never detect that the Mount has passed by.

2) As member Woodsy will advise you, Bajas and other overpowered boats can create a very intrusive wake just when changing speeds.

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

"...The few weekend days with good weather have been wild..."

That's been my perception as well (there's that word again ).

Originally Posted by onlywinni

"...I just need you to explain what harm was caused this Saturday morning as I traveled across the broads all ALONE at 55mph...?????????"

Saturday morning (really, all of Saturday) didn't seem bad at all, but there were sailboats on the Broads—and MP-11 racing off to the NNE—between 9:30 and 11:30. So, just how "alone" did you perceive yourself to be?

Sunday was so bad—wake-wise—I called it quits early, and asked myself "Why can't everybody else be in church"?

(Unlike Saturday, my perception was my wet clothes and getting beat-up by wakes).

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

"...How about getting back on topic - the spirit of compromise!

Because we went down that road for years?

Originally Posted by hazelnut

el I couldn't disagree more with you. I live on the lake all summer long and I can only assume you are boating on weekdays between 5 and 8 pm. Other than that I have witnessed the absolute worst boating displays EVER this year. Please for you and your friends sake do not spread the word the the lake is somehow magically safer this year as you will be putting yourself and your friends lives at serious risk. As an islander I can tell you I boat way more than the average boater as it is my primary source of transportation. My 25 foot bowrider capable of a shade faster than 47MPH is my car. I am subjected to seeing the absolute worst of the worst and I can tell you that this lake is VERY dangerous right now. I was absolutely horrified on Saturday. Pulling out of my dock felt like getting on to I-95. Tubers in channels with kids in the water. Boats 25-35 feet away from each other. An idiot on a Jet Ski with two others on it cut across my bow less than 25 feet. First time I ever used my horn like a car horn. It worked and the kid waved. He thought I was saying hello! This lake is absolutely NOT safer. I started boating on the lake in around 1981. I've driven everything from a tin boat to the Doris E. herself. I can tell you from experience that things have gone way downhill in the past few years and I am getting scared going out on a Saturday. Let me add that not ONE Performance boat has been involved in any of these situations, not ONE! So I am sick and tired of the allegations that pin it on those guys. I am not one of them I am merely a frustrated boater. Frustrated with legislation that DID NOT address the Real problems of the lake. I am actually beyond frustrated and more pissed off than anything. I drive around the lake wondering how all these people passed a boat test????? The bill that was passed has had absolutely no affect on the safety of the lake. I am appalled at how crazy the lake is. YUP I said it "Crazy" I used the term you used. I agree wholeheartedly that the lake is crazy right now. But it is the idiots in the family boat dragging their kids in a channel. It is the bass fisherman coming a few feet up my side waving as he passes me, it is the jetskier cutting across my bow, it is the guy who has NO CLUE that I have the right of way when he is cutting across my bow from the left and I have to stop to avoid killing my family, it is the idiot in the pontoon boat who tired to pass me in a no wake zone (he was on plane). FYI most of this occurred yesterday!!
So please do us all a favor and take off the rose colored glasses because I just can't believe we are boating on the same lake??? This law addresses NOTHING it has done NOTHING! Things are worse.

Wow! No wonder things look so good to the rest of us, I guess all the dangerous behavior has moved to in front of your house this summer. With all these boats buzzing past you 25 feet away, you surely got a few hull numbers and called them in to the MP. Are they investigating? And the offenders were all small family boats driven by the notorious "Captain Bonehead"? Meanwhile all the performance boaters you've been seeing (even though you really have no horse in this race yourself) were prudently cruising along obeying all the existing laws, which agrees with what you have been saying, that this is all we ever really needed to make everyone feel safe on this lake, right? What a coincidence. How nicely this all plays into your mission of painting the speed limit as a do-nothing law and painting all the dangerous boaters as the ones with their entire families aboard and all the Go Fast Be Louders as the quiet peaceful victims. Nice try.

Story in today's Citizen (http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...995/-1/CITIZEN) talks about how official highway counts actually have tourist traffic UP this year...which agrees with my observation that the numbers of boats on the lake is UP this year, even though the slower speeds make it SEEM that boating traffic is down. Meanwhile, the MP reports that boating violations are way down this year, which agrees with my observation that boaters are behaving better this year. Seems like facts don't lie.

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

How about getting back on topic - the spirit of compromise! R2B

The best compromise is already in place. A 45MPH speed limit lets everyone share the lake without fear or intimidation. And those who like to go fast can still do so (up to 45 mph, which is very fast in a boat).

http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll...4/-1/CITNEWS04
The speed limit on New Hampshire's largest lake will be 45 miles per hour during the daytime and 25 miles per hour at night. The 25-mile-per-hour speed limit will be in effect from one half-hour after sunset to one half-hour before sunrise. Boaters who exceed the speed limit will be stopped and issued a warning or citation at the discretion of the officer.
"Now boaters look at that number and thinks it's low, but it's not," said David Barrett, director of the Division of Safety Services.
"Traveling on the water at speeds beyond 35 miles per hour may feel like one is traveling on a highway going 55 miles per hour or more."

[Resident 2B]

the definition of compromise.

It is starting to sound like we cannot even agree on what a compromise is.

Time to get a bit more real!

R2B

[VtSteve]

That's the very same David Barrett that said earlier this year speeding was not much of a problem on Winni, and not to expect many violations of the SL. He's being very diplomatic.

So El, looks likes the traffic on the lake is not off by much, and boaters are mostly behaving themselves, thanks to the SL. Is that your story?

[Airwaves]

I guess elchase didn't get this far into the article

Barrett said that, from the experience from the pilot program Marine Patrol implemented last summer, there is not a large number of boats that exceeded the speed limit.

"I don't think that the fact that it's now in effect is going to make any monster change," said Barrett.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

I guess elchase didn't get this far into the article

Elchase should have read this article as well ....

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...WS02/708069649

wherein it said ....

"Anyone who has been on the water can clearly see that the amount of boat traffic is down significantly from years past. Even on the sunny Fourth of July weekend, boating activity was way below normal."

and ...

"Marine Patrol Director David Barrett does not believe that the speed limit has much effect on boating, but the weather has."

and ...

"Those who know the lake best all agree that, aside from the economy, the weather has been the one thing that has hurt boating this season."

and finally ...

"When asked if the new speed limit could have an affect on boating activity, Thurston said that he didn't see it contributing to the lack of activity.

"I don't think it's been an issue at all," he said about the speed limits. "Mother Nature is a compelling factor. I think the big crowds are here."


Opinions may vary but the minority is usually wrong.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by elchase

Wow! No wonder things look so good to the rest of us, I guess all the dangerous behavior has moved to in front of your house this summer. With all these boats buzzing past you 25 feet away, you surely got a few hull numbers and called them in to the MP. Are they investigating? And the offenders were all small family boats driven by the notorious "Captain Bonehead"? Meanwhile all the performance boaters you've been seeing (even though you really have no horse in this race yourself) were prudently cruising along obeying all the existing laws, which agrees with what you have been saying, that this is all we ever really needed to make everyone feel safe on this lake, right? What a coincidence. How nicely this all plays into your mission of painting the speed limit as a do-nothing law and painting all the dangerous boaters as the ones with their entire families aboard and all the Go Fast Be Louders as the quiet peaceful victims. Nice try.

Story in today's Citizen (http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...995/-1/CITIZEN) talks about how official highway counts actually have tourist traffic UP this year...which agrees with my observation that the numbers of boats on the lake is UP this year, even though the slower speeds make it SEEM that boating traffic is down. Meanwhile, the MP reports that boating violations are way down this year, which agrees with my observation that boaters are behaving better this year. Seems like facts don't lie.


The best compromise is already in place. A 45MPH speed limit lets everyone share the lake without fear or intimidation. And those who like to go fast can still do so (up to 45 mph, which is very fast in a boat).

http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll...4/-1/CITNEWS04
The speed limit on New Hampshire's largest lake will be 45 miles per hour during the daytime and 25 miles per hour at night. The 25-mile-per-hour speed limit will be in effect from one half-hour after sunset to one half-hour before sunrise. Boaters who exceed the speed limit will be stopped and issued a warning or citation at the discretion of the officer.
"Now boaters look at that number and thinks it's low, but it's not," said David Barrett, director of the Division of Safety Services.
"Traveling on the water at speeds beyond 35 miles per hour may feel like one is traveling on a highway going 55 miles per hour or more."

It is interesting how one can try to bend facts to suit their argument. Sir, did you read the entire article or only the first paragraph? Here is the bit I pulled-it is a bit more germane to the topic:

"The area that has fared best this summer is Northern New Hampshire, a place with several family attractions and the National White Mountain Forest. The Lakes and Seacoast regions are more weather-dependent, and therefore businesses there may not have done so well, he said.

Amy Landers, executive director of the Lakes Region Association, said business owners have reported mixed results.

"It's always hard to tell how a season will end up, with the weather and so many other factors," Landers said.

She added that it also depends on the type of business.

For example, she said, restaurants, retail outlets and movie theaters do well on rainy days, but an outdoor recreation business, such as one specializing in boat rentals, will not.

"If there is a forecast for extended periods of rain, people may put off their trip until later in the month," she said. "Then it is just lost business because they may not come at all or they will come for a shorter amount of time."

But with recent sunny stretches, some area hotels have reported that they are fully booked, she said.

"Generally I think people are optimistic that, while it may not be a banner year, things will be all right," she said. "People are looking forward to a strong August and September."

-end-

Ms Landers certainly does not sound like she shares your assertion.

[VtSteve]

Just last week, there was an article showing the boat traffic way down on the lake, according to the MP. It showed some empty docks at the Weirs, lower MP stops statewide.

El you need to look at everything. One of the main arguments of the SL crowd is that they do not want to wait for the data, since they themselves stated that the boat traffic being way down would not bolster their case.

In case you didn't know, that's why the threads were opened again

[NoRegrets]

This Saturday I witnessed everything you stated in your post. It used to take 3 weekends to see this blatant disregard to safety. I have no idea what elchase does to stay oblivious to facts but the "family" boating fun isn't going to be unmarred for long. It is a matter of time when some of these close calls are going to turn into unfortunate events. I came through he Weirs channel on Saturday and had a small boat with two children on the bow (not a bow rider nor did it have railings) behind us. After they got out of the channel the boat got up on plain and headed towards the Governor’s island bridge with the kids still on the bow!
My wife and I were in disbelief of what we were seeing but then got circled by another family pulling a tube trying to hit the big waves.

This was also the first time I have come through Paugus Bay, out into the lake, anchor for the day, and return back to Paugus Bay without seeing a Marine Patrol boat. Did they get Saturday off?

In the spirit of compromise: I think it is about time be real about facts and experiences. I have not been bothered by performance boats and respect the knowledge it takes to tune, trim, and manage the equipment so they may be better boaters than most. How to educate the family and old timers seems to be central to the issue of pro speed limit boaters feeling "unsafe". These un-reported or un-ticketed events span over several laws or lack of common sense so it is hard to select one issue to address. The speed limit on the other hand is something you can place on a banner so we are debating that as the single issue.

The process of mandatory licensing should have done better that what we have so should we turn our attention to what failed with that process and let the speed limit pass it time test as it was designed and sunset.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by elchase

Wow! No wonder things look so good to the rest of us, I guess all the dangerous behavior has moved to in front of your house this summer. With all these boats buzzing past you 25 feet away, you surely got a few hull numbers and called them in to the MP. Are they investigating? And the offenders were all small family boats driven by the notorious "Captain Bonehead"? Meanwhile all the performance boaters you've been seeing (even though you really have no horse in this race yourself) were prudently cruising along obeying all the existing laws, which agrees with what you have been saying, that this is all we ever really needed to make everyone feel safe on this lake, right? What a coincidence. How nicely this all plays into your mission of painting the speed limit as a do-nothing law and painting all the dangerous boaters as the ones with their entire families aboard and all the Go Fast Be Louders as the quiet peaceful victims. Nice try.
[/I]

el, seriously take the blinders off. You are actually coming off a tad loony if you claim the lake is not overrun with knuckleheads. Actually add three more incidents TODAY! A MONDAY! I have absolutely no reason to embellish. Two incidents occurred within MINUTES of each other. One was a center console that drove me into a buoy. I was in my 13 foot whaler he was in a 20-21 foot Grady. I came off plane waved my arms in the air hoping he actually saw me! Minutes later 2 waverunners came around a corner and came within 20 feet of me and I immediately dropped the throttle and stopped. The past incidents I posted occurred in NUMEROUS areas of the lake. Most of them while I had 4 or more witnesses on board. Some were visitors who do not frequent the lake and they were a bit shocked by the craziness of the lake. I explained that there was a great new law in place. A "Speed Limit!" Most of my passengers laughed and said, "what the hell good would that do?" I made no comment and just smiled.

As for my credibility, I would never defend it to you. Yours though? Let's just say the research has begun.


FYI: I took down the bow numbers of the Pontoon Boat and called it in. They thanked me politely. I'm sure he was reprimanded.

[VtSteve]

El, there's a lot of boats that have trouble staying on plane at low speeds. Particularly, underpowered boats and smallish bowriders with loads. Props can be an effective aid. I put some Smart Tabs on my 22' and it gave me remarkable ability to plane at low speeds. A new SS Laser prop negated some of that ability, so now I can reasonably plane at around 20 mph or so. I'd much rather have that deep vee Baja doing 26 or more on plane than 20 or so off plane. I'm so sick of boat waves

Speaking of which, that's why people started the trend towards larger boats with vees long ago. At any rate, nice off topic.

Has anyone decided which part of the new law requires more enforcement activity yet?

[Airwaves]

I belive the proponents of the SL law claimed it would not cost any additional money to enforce.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

I belive the proponents of the SL law claimed it would not cost any additional money to enforce.

Yes, many did. Some were honest, and simply stated that it was a deterrent of sorts. There are many good people that supported the law for some reason or another, regardless of how late in the game they came out with their true feelings.

Most of us are pretty good people with good intentions here. Some are here to disrput things before the legislative process continues. This is a highly visible board, and they'd love to have the SL threads shut down again. Don't in an unenviable situation. But if an adult conversation cannot continue here, we could continue it elsewhere.

I will refrain from further troll responses, and try to keep my eye on the ball.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Has anyone decided which part of the new law requires more enforcement activity yet?

I really feel the bulk of the law has merits. The only part is the arbitrary speed of 45/25. If it is arbitrary, how can it be enforced, proven in court?

Where did the 45/25 come from? Proponents says it works on Lake George NY. This is not Lake George NY. This is Lake Winnipesaukee! A huge body of water compared to Lake George. Lake George is bordered predominantly by state land. Lake Winnipesaukee is not. Lake George does not have the 150' rule. Winnipesaukee has. I could go on. There is no comparision. Lake Winnipesaukee is not better off with an arbitrary limit.

Why 45? Why not 35, 55, or even 65? It makes no sense it is only a number. Why 25? Why not 5, 15 or even 35? It's only a number. These numbers are not backed up with a fact like, less accident at 45 than other speeds. 25 mph is a bad speed. many boats can not operate on plane at that speed and results in more shore erosions. You will have boneheads that think they need to go 45/25 even if the conditions are dangerous.

Adding the USCG Rule 6 to the present law has merits. It will give the NHMP more teeth to justify the arrest in court. People tend to find loopholes in vague laws. 'reasonable and prudent' can be vague.

Adding fines with a high fee schedule has a lot of merits. Many folks can not afford to make a 'mistake'. If a fee schedule is added, it must support the NHMP and not go into the NH 'general funds'. The Marine Patrol is a fine organization and should not be short funded. It serves a valuable service in boating and water safety.

[onlywinni]

Originally Posted by elchase

I just don't understand why everyone I meet who uses the lake more casually is saying how much this year's SL and last year's test helped bring civility back to the lake, and all those on this forum (who almost unanimously opposed the SL) are seeing all this mayhem and all these violations.

I'm on the lake at least thirty hours a week this summer, and have seen maybe two incidences of bonehead behavior (not counting all the performance boats cruising around with their trims up to make big wakes on purpose) and a handful of SL violators. This compares to the incident-per-minute rate I've witnessed in past years


And my failure to understand is compounded when the same people say on one thread that the SL is having all this negative impact, then on another thread saying it is doing nothing but wasting enforcement dollars (which is it?). And the people saying it wastes those enforcement dollars say on another thread that the MP is not even bothering to enforce and is spending all their time entrapping people into passage violations (which is it?).
My observations are my observations, and I am as entitled to share them as you guys are. My opinions are my opinions, and I am as entitle to express them as you guys are. I refuse to just back and shut up when I read stuff here by a decidedly biased group that so blatantly conflicts with what I am seeing out on the lake. And trying to ram down our throats the notions that 1) things are still crazy out there despite the SL, even though the SL has chased all the boats off the lake (which is it?), 2) There are more violations this year because of the SL, even though going slower is making you all waste so much gas (which is it?), 3) the SL is ruining the shorefront, even though you are still going as fast as you want (which is it?), 4) the SL is destroying the local economy, even though you are ignoring it anyway (which is it?), and 5) all these other contradictions. Most of what I read here disagrees with what most of us who are out on the lake day after day year after year have witnessed, and might fly with your comrades and the naive, but is not going to intimidate the rest of society into buying it.
I'm sorry if my opinion and my boating interests differ from yours. But my passive boating activities never interfered with yours the way yours did with mine, and I simply do not want to see us take a giant step backwards to the mayhem of 2007 and before. The SL is indeed making us feel good, and I like feeling good. You guys should consider the impact your aggressive activities have on others before telling us why we are wrong in opposing them.

First, not sure if you are boating with your eyes open or not, but I was out for 5 hours on Saturday and I saw three incidents of boaters Blatantly Ignoring no wake areas. (2 of them in the Weirs/Paugus Bay Channel-1 17 foot run about and 1 bass boat. Another 20 foot runabout in the Governors island no wake area) I also experienced several 150 violations during the day.. None of those violations were from Go Fast Boat Captains.


Second, by reading your first post in the Supporters Thread you are Obviously a Go Fast Boat hater and there is no talking any sense to you about this subject.



I just need you to explain what harm was caused this Saturday morning as I traveled across the broads all ALONE at 55mph?????????

..one more thing...If anyone is trying to intimidate anyone it is you...Just read his first post in the Supporters Thread.....Dont you dare post anything he does not like or he will have it Removed!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why dont you go for a Sail and Relax

[onlywinni]

Originally Posted by elchase

Sir,
I think 45MPH is already a perfect compromise. It's certainly very fast in a boat (by the speed limit opposer's own count it is faster than over 95% of the boats on the lake can even go), and the law only applies to one lake in the entire state. Most people who had not gone that fast are amazed at how fast it really is in a boat the first time they are given such a ride. Most skiers cannot ski over 30, let alone 45. Not a single performance boat manufactured in the past 20 years claims a planing speed over 20, so those cruising around with their trims and bows up to make huge wakes in an effort to sabotage are just wasting gas. Certainly the whole of Newfound or Sunapee each approximate the size of the Broads of Winnipesaukee, so those who want go faster have plenty of open water in the state to do it on (besides our substantial "offshore" and Great Bay). And the Newport Police chief was one of the biggest opponents to a speed limit on Sunapee, so I assume the people out there would welcome more performance boaters. 45 is more than fast enough already for any reasonable boating activity on a lake that has so much traffic and people.
I disagree wholeheartedly with the attempts to say people are not happy with the impact of the SL or those (sometimes the very same individuls) who say the SL is doing nothing at all (which is it?). Most of the boaters I meet at the marina (admittedly not Channel or Silver Sands), all of the sailors and salmon fishermen I know (and there are a lot of those) and almost all of the residents I talk to around town have noticed a huge improvement in the civility on the lake this year (with the SL) and last year (with the test), are spending more time on the lake this year, and do not want things to go back...even an inch. We keep hearing how quiet things are on the lake this year, but if you look, you will see just as many boats. When the economy and weather are better, we should see many more boats than in recent years...but I'll bet the lake will still be quieter...and seem safer.
It seems pretty obvious, except if one only gets his news from this forum and the few who dominate it, that the vast majority of the boating public feels very happy with the current law and does not care how many tickets are issued. What difference could that make to anyone who is not just out for revenge? Who told you "slow boat folks are ticked there isnt enough enforcement (no tickets yet to date)." ? People are obeying the law (for the most part) and that is all we really care about.
45 mph daytime and 25 mph nighttime on only one lake in a state with several hundred is a fine compromise, and is working out just fine for everyone except the few who would probably not be satisfied if the limit was 95.

This entire post has nothing to do with a Compromise....You should repost this in your Supporter Thread.

You are also Misinformed about Performance Boats and probably should keep your commentary to Sailing if that is what you know about. I would be happy to pick you up anytime on the Lake...I am quite a Friendly Guy..I will take you for a ride and if you can get my Baja to plane at 20mph I will give you $1000. I am lucky if she will stay on plane at 25mph.

I also have news for you...the big cabin cruisers on the lake throw a much bigger wake than my Baja does and dont even get me started on the wakes created by the Mt. Wash and the Doris E...Why dont you go attack them for a while

Originally Posted by onlywinni

This entire post has nothing to do with a Compromise....You should repost this in your Supporter Thread.

And the rest of you should move your "compromise" posts to the opposers thread. "Let us go as fast as we can on the part of the lake that offers the best sailing and salmon-fishing, and let us resume the same aggressive mayhem on the biggest part of the lake that caused all this trouble in the first place, just so we can have our selfish fun". That's a compromise?

Originally Posted by onlywinni

I will take you for a ride and if you can get my Baja to plane at 20mph I will give you $1000. I am lucky if she will stay on plane at 25mph.

Seems odd that your boat struggles so. Boattest.com (no snail boating site) tested it and found differently;
http://www.boattest.com/oem/general-...nk=#TestResult
Their boat was up on plane in 3.9 seconds but took 7.1 seconds to reach 30 mph, suggesting a planing speed well below 25 mph. And the video explains;
"This 26 outlaw runs well at slow speeds too, staying up on plane and under control down to 25 miles per hour, without a lot of fuss over trim tabs or drives to distract the skipper from crowded waterways". Of course, you may have suped up yours to gain top-end speed at the expense of planing speed, but that could simply be solved by the installation of some trim tabs...a very cheap investment compared to the high cost of that boat, eh?

Originally Posted by onlywinni

If there are alot of boats around-specifically those MP boats, I obey the 45mph limit all day...if no boats are around and we are in the broads..I drop the hammer often

Like many of your comrades on this forum, you are an admitted scofflaw trying to instigate the very arguments you then try to blame on others. Now you want to call those who object to your illegal behavior the "trolls" and silence our side of the issue? Come on.

I've been in my share of performance boats. Very exciting, and I can see how the addiction develops, but I did not feel such high speed belonged on a heavily-trafficed lake. This might be the result of a high speed car accident I was in as a teen that left me keen on the dangers. Of course, when the boats are out there running at high speeds the other boats seem to head for shore and the crowds seem to diminish, but that is not compromising or sharing...it is bullying.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by onlywinni

You are also Misinformed about Performance Boats and probably should keep your commentary to Sailing if that is what you know about. I would be happy to pick you up anytime on the Lake...I am quite a Friendly Guy..I will take you for a ride and if you can get my Baja to plane at 20mph I will give you $1000. I am lucky if she will stay on plane at 25mph.

onlywinni.... will you pay for the props I will need to try to get your boat to plane and handle between 20 - 25 mph.... look, I believe and hold to the fact that there is a comprimise out there.... but you have to be realistic.... Just like I called Woodsy out when he said pace boats kept the speed over the Donzi poker run to 45 mph or less, I am going to call you out here.... nope as currently set up I bet you boat doesn't plane well and struggles at 20 -25 mph.... but you are also pitched for speed, aren't you?

The following link is for a test of a 30 outlaw.... they claimed planning speed 19 mph....

http://features.boats.com/boat-conte...aja-30-outlaw/

people can debate that their performance boats don't plane at slower speeds, but if you have been around boats long enough you realize that this is because they prop for the high end.... which hurts the low end.... the best prop for most people is the one that get them out of the whole quickly .... but for someone going for speed, a high end prop is what the need, and they don't produce the torque need to maintain a plane out low rpm, or even get the boat out of the water quickly......

If you want to argue for or against speed limits that is fine.... but don't try and pull the wool over people eyes with poor information...

I understand all the information.... I understand how to get boats to perform the way I want them, I love to both scream accross the water, and also take a nice sail... and this is a big dam lake, we should all be able to enjoy it......

[onlywinni]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

onlywinni.... will you pay for the props I will need to try to get your boat to plane and handle between 20 - 25 mph.... look, I believe and hold to the fact that there is a comprimise out there.... but you have to be realistic.... Just like I called Woodsy out when he said pace boats kept the speed over the Donzi poker run to 45 mph or less, I am going to call you out here.... nope as currently set up I bet you boat doesn't plane well and struggles at 20 -25 mph.... but you are also pitched for speed, aren't you?

The following link is for a test of a 30 outlaw.... they claimed planning speed 19 mph....

http://features.boats.com/boat-conte...aja-30-outlaw/

people can debate that their performance boats don't plane at slower speeds, but if you have been around boats long enough you realize that this is because they prop for the high end.... which hurts the low end.... the best prop for most people is the one that get them out of the whole quickly .... but for someone going for speed, a high end prop is what the need, and they don't produce the torque need to maintain a plane out low rpm, or even get the boat out of the water quickly......

If you want to argue for or against speed limits that is fine.... but don't try and pull the wool over people eyes with poor information...

I understand all the information.... I understand how to get boats to perform the way I want them, I love to both scream accross the water, and also take a nice sail... and this is a big dam lake, we should all be able to enjoy it......

So I said I cant operate my boat safely at less than 25mph and the Boattest.com tests confirms that... and I am pulling the wool over someones eyes with poor information????????


I agree 100% that the lake is big and we can all enjoy it.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by onlywinni

and I am pulling the wool over someones eyes with poor information????????

I think he was referring not to you but to another poster

[Kracken]

Ummm,

I didn't realize that the “opposers” were negotiating terms with the supporters on this forum.

I certainly was not aware that the supporters had the right to be judge and jury here. I am not picking on the supporters, its just as of right now the supporters have the law on their side.

Isn’t the purpose of this forum for all BOATERS to discuss their view points?

Just a thought….

Maybe if every member, opposers, supporters, and people just sitting on the fence could give a speed limit they believe is fair. If you say 45/25 that is fine, if you say unlimited…that’s fine too, it’s just an opinion. Maybe we are not that far apart. If every member could give a number…not a reason, just a number ( I am looking right at you Mee-n-Mac).

I think it would be interesting to see where the boaters of Winnipesaukee stand.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Kracken

Ummm,

I didn't realize that the “opposers” were negotiating terms with the supporters on this forum.

I certainly was not aware that the supporters had the right to be judge and jury here. I am not picking on the supporters, its just as of right now the supporters have the law on their side.

Isn’t the purpose of this forum for all BOATERS to discuss their view points?

Just a thought….

Maybe if every member, opposers, supporters, and people just sitting on the fence could give a speed limit they believe is fair. If you say 45/25 that is fine, if you say unlimited…that’s fine too, it’s just an opinion. Maybe we are not that far apart. If every member could give a number…not a reason, just a number ( I am looking right at you Mee-n-Mac).

I think it would be interesting to see where the boaters of Winnipesaukee stand.

Very Good Post... I believe that the threads original purpose was to discuss peoples views on their thoughts on a compromising law not the merits of the SL in general. There are TONS of threads going and from the past that people can go to for that.

Now that the limits have been in place, although no data has been published, we can discuss the effects and perhaps come to a compromise that "most" everyone can be happy with.

That being said.

Personally I would like UNLIMITED however "in the spirit of compromise"

55 mph daytime on the lake
Unlimited in the broads

35 night time entire lake

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

55 mph daytime on the lake
Unlimited in the broads

35 night time entire lake

Now this is progress.... not that I expected less OCD has always seemed to get the idea of comprimise....

Now OCD, I am definately with you 35 at night I think is more reasonable then 25 which as some have indicated.... makes getting home slow... Hey I blast across the broads at 30 at night myself....

And yep for certain unlimited in the Broads is the only way to go.....

Now I am just curious what made 55 pop out??

As I have often said my perference is to restrict speed in specific area's so I am curious to understand the comprimise to 55, with the broads unlimited.....other then I would imagine the % of boats that can get above 55 are limited....

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Now this is progress.... not that I expected less OCD has always seemed to get the idea of comprimise....

Now OCD, I am definately with you 35 at night I think is more reasonable then 25 which as some have indicated.... makes getting home slow... Hey I blast across the broads at 30 at night myself....

And yep for certain unlimited in the Broads is the only way to go.....

Now I am just curious what made 55 pop out??

As I have often said my perference is to restrict speed in specific area's so I am curious to understand the comprimise to 55, with the broads unlimited.....other then I would imagine the % of boats that can get above 55 are limited....

I brought the 55 again in "the spirit of compromise". Living in the northern coves there are only a few spots that 55 mph is even possible (safely) Suissvale bay (for a short stint), Moultonboro Bay, and Melvin Bay. However I don't want to pretend to know what everyone else is experiencing. So I am trying to think what would be reasonable for me and for the Pro-SL crowd I thought 55mph would work... Hoping to show some of us are at least willing to sit down at the table...

[VtSteve]

I think the best part of the new law, like many others have stated, is the language itself. If one were to look solely at the data from the last 30 years, I doubt a speed limit would pop into (most people's) minds. You have the usual group that doesn't like the sound, blah blah. If We The People in the United States made laws based on people's personal likes and dislikes, the environment we live in today would be Nirvana by comparison.

Lots of discussions between rational people need to take place to even get an accurate gauge of the state of the lake itself. I feel it's way premature to be discussing speed limits and actual numbers when people can't seem to agree on what's right, and more importantly, what's wrong. There are a few people that have speed limit on the brain, and can't seem to discuss anything else. There have been legitimate gripes on both sides that need to be addressed. These issues cannot be discussed in civil fashion if trolls are being fed daily. There's been some bait laid lately, and many have picked up on it. You'll not be able to deal with whatever emotional hangups these folks have, so why bother?

The issues underlying the original law passed were supposedly safety. Since one side has proposed making these permanent because there won't be enough data, the alternative should be pretty obvious. People need to get together on this issue and try to ascertain the real environment on the water. There are many on this very thread that have stated their willingness to discuss specific areas, which I believe would have been part of the original law several years back if compromise had been agreed to then.


What's happening here now is a few vocal, and very proactive SL supporters have decided that it would be fun to irritate the people on board. If it gets bad enough, they surmise, Don will have to shut it down and the most visible forum will be silenced while they do their deeds behind the scenes. Similar to what they did last time. I prefer to let my opponents make total fools of themselves, it's far less stressful, and humorous.

Keep up the good work here people. Just ignore the people that are less than civil, and maybe you'll gain a much larger audience of supporters.

[BroadHopper]

A 30' Outlaw can plane at 19 mph? WoW! That's pretty damn good. I bet the test was done on salt water where the water is heavier and the boat can get on plane easier. Also prop slip is less in salt water.

I have a difficult time getting on plane at 25! As a property owner this is not good and I have stressed many times, 25 at night will cause a lot of shore erosion. But the SL crowd simply don't care about anything but their own agenda!

[onlywinni]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

A 30' Outlaw can plane at 19 mph? WoW! That's pretty damn good. I bet the test was done on salt water where the water is heavier and the boat can get on plane easier. Also prop slip is less in salt water.

I have a difficult time getting on plane at 25!

I wanted to say it, but figured I would let the debate rest on planing speeds as it has nothing to do with the real issue, but thanks for bringing it up..


--------------------

Back on topic with a Compromise I would say day speed of 55mph would be acceptable and night of 25mph I am fine with.

I will say it again...55 during the day if the conditions warrant only.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Kracken

Isn’t the purpose of this forum for all BOATERS to discuss their view points?

Just a thought….

Maybe if every member, opposers, supporters, and people just sitting on the fence could give a speed limit they believe is fair. If you say 45/25 that is fine, if you say unlimited…that’s fine too, it’s just an opinion. Maybe we are not that far apart. If every member could give a number…not a reason, just a number ( I am looking right at you Mee-n-Mac).

I think it would be interesting to see where the boaters of Winnipesaukee stand.

Set the night speed limit to either 30 or 35 MPH. Why ? My best attempts to get a handle on it tell me the average joe might get into trouble above 40 MPH at night. I doubt there's much safety benefit to 25 vs 30 vs 35. But there's certainly a difference in boat handling and efficiency. Tell you what, in the spirit of compromise and to keeps things nautical, make it 30 knots.

For daytime let it be unlimited in the Broads and 1000' ft away from any other boat. It's the 45 MPH the supporters want in all other places. Reasonable and prudent clause applies at all times as it always has. Why ? Because the number of truly fast boats is so low that the "speed" problem is more theoretical than actual and since you can't please either side completely ... send them to play in different rooms !

[trfour]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

Set the night speed limit to either 30 or 35 MPH. Why ? My best attempts to get a handle on it tell me the average joe might get into trouble above 40 MPH at night. I doubt there's much safety benefit to 25 vs 30 vs 35. But there's certainly a difference in boat handling and efficiency. Tell you what, in the spirit of compromise and to keeps things nautical, make it 30 knots.

For daytime let it be unlimited in the Broads and 1000' ft away from any other boat. It's the 45 MPH the supporters want in all other places. Reasonable and prudent clause applies at all times as it always has. Why ? Because the number of truly fast boats is so low that the "speed" problem is more theoretical than actual and since you can't please either side completely ... send them to play in different rooms !

And just maybe, I can get away with a comment here.... Enforce the laws that are and were law before the speed limit. First of all, lets disallow darts and a dartboard with speed limit stickers pasted all over it in the lawmaker's chambers.... The lawmaker's have unlimited resources at their disposal. They are not where they are to throw indiscriminate patches, but instead to collectively solve problems, and to protect the public at Large. Sometimes they get carried off the pathway.
I understand that most of them are trying to enjoy their summer vacations at this time, so I as well will go away now!

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by trfour

And just maybe, I can get away with a comment here.... Enforce the laws that are and were law before the speed limit.

Sounds like the discussions from years past. Perhaps my memory is foggy. But I don't recall any of the SL proponents being engaged in discussions concerning enforcement. To downplay any other problems, some of the most vocal shills have stated there are no other problems on the lake. A pretty ridiculous assertion. But the main point is this, SL proponents are rarely, if ever, promoting safety. The espouse fear, and have great contempt for those that take the discussion to broader areas of enforcement and safety.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Sounds like the discussions from years past. Perhaps my memory is foggy. But I don't recall any of the SL proponents being engaged in discussions concerning enforcement. To downplay any other problems, some of the most vocal shills have stated there are no other problems on the lake. A pretty ridiculous assertion. But the main point is this, SL proponents are rarely, if ever, promoting safety. The espouse fear, and have great contempt for those that take the discussion to broader areas of enforcement and safety.

Most of your posts are reasonable, but you are way off base here.

What you call safety threads I would call "Divert attention from the SL" threads or even "Convince people we are interested in safety" threads.

I joined the NHRBA shortly after it was formed. I was soon told to "go away" they didn't want any spies from the speed limit supporters. To bad I wasn't able to take part in the vote they had about supporting HB162 or not. I guess the vote came out that they would oppose it, big surprise.

So give me a break with all this "SL supporters don't want safety" talk.

And please tell me where SL supporters claimed there were "no other problems on the lake". That doesn't pass the laugh test.

[hazelnut]

... Bear Islander I do and will always have a difficult time drawing a correlation between the SL Law and addressing safety on the lake. Based on what most of us here observe going over 45MPH has nothing to do with all the incidents on the lake jeopardizing our lives. When thinking about supporting the law did you just throw your hands up in exasperation one day and say "well it's a start!" I am curious as to how you reached the conclusion that it would actually address the Cap. Boneheads on the lake. This isn't to say that there isn't one or two idiots that have done 50+ and caused and incident or made someone "scared." My position is and will always be why create a law that only addresses the minority? I just don't understand it? The majority problems need to be addressed. Why waste time and money on something that has little or no impact on the real problems plaguing the lake. This (for you elChase) is why I actually care about this "fight." I am sick and tired of the diversion of funds and attention towards a law that I predict won't work towards fixing the problem. Not because I support people doing 100MPH across the broads, Ludicrous in my opinion, sorry. But to target the guy who wants to do 55-65 maybe even 75 across the broads, eh who cares. As long as he does it safely I don't care. How many boats can actually do 75+ anyway? The law is a waste of resources plain and simple.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Most of your posts are reasonable, but you are way off base here.

What you call safety threads I would call "Divert attention from the SL" threads or even "Convince people we are interested in safety" threads.

I joined the NHRBA shortly after it was formed. I was soon told to "go away" they didn't want any spies from the speed limit supporters. To bad I wasn't able to take part in the vote they had about supporting HB162 or not. I guess the vote came out that they would oppose it, big surprise.

So give me a break with all this "SL supporters don't want safety" talk.

And please tell me where SL supporters claimed there were "no other problems on the lake". That doesn't pass the laugh test.

Sure it does. I usually put in terms like "rarely, if ever", and "mostly", and sometimes think of you personally as I do it. You get pretty confusing when you start adding in terms like "erosion" and "environment", as though the SL specifically helps those areas out. I do know, BI, that your own ideas in regards to the lake, and boating in general on the lake, are far less shallow, and thus, far more complex than those of "Most" of the pro SL crowd.

But let's get to the meat of the issue may we? It's hard to differentiate from safety and the SL law itself, since that was the guise it was passed on. But I don't really care about the two opposing groups in the SL debate, they were both biased, and in the end, myopic in their focus. I will say that the NHRBA appeared to at least do Something targeted towards safety, where the other organization? Maybe nothing?

But this is you and me having a discussion. I say, "most" pro speed limit advocates, especially those that are emphatically pro speed limit, are Rarely, if Ever seen in discussions involving overall safety on the lake. Some of the more ridiculous proponents did join in, but only to add that the lake is a wonderful, safe, and friendly place this year, And Last because of their new law. One particular proponent basically called anyone that said it was not, a liar. But he then added that traffic on the lake was not down, and would not comment when proven to be quite ridiculous in making those statements.

You're one of the very few SL promoters that ever gets engaged in some of these discussions, although I wish you did more often. You were quite vocal about the shenanigans that take place around Bears Island, particularly the kid's camps. People flying through the NWZ daily. But then you couch, and time your statements to make sure it doesn't interfere with a certain law. So how are things around your parts these days, particularly on weekends?

For people that are generally not cognizant of their bad actions, enforcement is needed. I fully recognize that some people do things that annoy experienced boaters not out of stupidity or arrogance, but that they may be new to the game, and do not Know the right way. Those are the ones that many of us try to help out. Then there are those others. We all know the kind, and their actions. No one specific group, they come in all flavors.

Hazelnut is dead spot on accurate. Many (most) of us, are pretty sick of the activity that goes on on lakes across the country, let alone just Winni. By no means am I a goody two shoes safety advocate. I deplore the thought of wearing a PFD at all times in a boat. So instead of trying to diss genuine thoughts, why don't you show everyone where the overwhelming majority of the SL crowd engages in anything other than steadfastly sticking to the SL alone. Many are so scared that the SL provisions will be found to be unneeded, they just lie about what's going on. I'm sorry to say BI, that you yourself just will not address some of the things reported because deep down, you just think that the law will rid the lake of "some" boats, which can only be a better thing. I agree, twelve boats on the lake would be great, just mine maybe better.

But my theory is that all waterways would be far, far better places, if the existing laws in place were enforced, and the aholes knew they would be enforced. The most active SL supporters don't really care about this part, since it's not in the top three in their agenda. So while many of us support more funding for the MP, and more co-operation with them in trying to get the bad guys off the water, they remain silent.

You tell me that's BS?

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

... Bear Islander I do and will always have a difficult time drawing a correlation between the SL Law and addressing safety on the lake. Based on what most of us here observe going over 45MPH has nothing to do with all the incidents on the lake jeopardizing our lives. When thinking about supporting the law did you just throw your hands up in exasperation one day and say "well it's a start!" I am curious as to how you reached the conclusion that it would actually address the Cap. Boneheads on the lake. This isn't to say that there isn't one or two idiots that have done 50+ and caused and incident or made someone "scared." My position is and will always be why create a law that only addresses the minority? I just don't understand it? The majority problems need to be addressed. Why waste time and money on something that has little or no impact on the real problems plaguing the lake. This (for you elChase) is why I actually care about this "fight." I am sick and tired of the diversion of funds and attention towards a law that I predict won't work towards fixing the problem. Not because I support people doing 100MPH across the broads, Ludicrous in my opinion, sorry. But to target the guy who wants to do 55-65 maybe even 75 across the broads, eh who cares. As long as he does it safely I don't care. How many boats can actually do 75+ anyway? The law is a waste of resources plain and simple.

I can tell you the exact moment when I knew Winnipesaukee needed a speed limit. I was taking to the director of a non-profit children's camp on the lake and he told me he could not let his small boats go out on the lake on certain days because of the lakes cowboy atmosphere. I have subsequently spoken to other camp directors on the lake that said much the same thing.

Reason number two is that as a former NH camp director I support the New Hampshire's Camp Directors Association endorsement of speed limits.

I have other reasons for supporting a speed limit, but the ones above are all I need.

[BroadHopper]

I just can't understand how the speed limit law control the Capt, Boneheads around the summer camps? Maybe we should enact a law to keep boaters 1500 feet away from summer camps. I think that would be more effective.

BTW, I spent many summers at various summer camps. I even became a CIT/counselor and camp brings back wonderful memories. The Boneheads were a nuisance! Not the speeders.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

When a cruiser's wake is caught on a webcam overturning kids in a canoe...and several drown...?

Do you deny that a headline—past or present—has NOT driven our lawmakers?

Missed this one. So the lawmakers were driven to pass the SL law partly because of a cruiser wake? I do remember "some" people discussing cruiser wakes quite a bit. Has the SL law slowed down the cruisers to 45 mph as well?

[BroadHopper]

Are at the maximum at 25 mph. Creating shore erosion. Guess the SL proponents do not want to hear about consequences.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I can tell you the exact moment when I knew Winnipesaukee needed a speed limit. I was taking to the director of a non-profit children's camp on the lake and he told me he could not let his small boats go out on the lake on certain days because of the lakes cowboy atmosphere. I have subsequently spoken to other camp directors on the lake that said much the same thing.

Reason number two is that as a former NH camp director I support the New Hampshire's Camp Directors Association endorsement of speed limits.

I have other reasons for supporting a speed limit, but the ones above are all I need.

Well those are pretty fine reasons, on the surface. I'm sure they probably appreciate the lower traffic on the lake as a whole this year. I certainly remember you mentioning the camps and their safety issues at length many times. A lot of the discussions morphed into NWZ violations, not to mention 150' violations. Many of us thought it was not only prudent, but based on your observations and others, necessary, that the NWZ be expanded, and that a larger safety zone be installed in those areas.

My guess is that some violations will occur still, and that it will be back to normal when summer returns, with a multitude of boats. Congestion always brings problems with it. If some of the more vocal SL proponents are correct, many of their friends will be back on the lake again, now that they say it's safer.

It's always more important to go with the best solutions, not the favored answer. Sounded like an enforcement problem then, and my guess is, it will continue to be an enforcement problem in the future. You have a webcam there, ever stream it to the MP?

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

I just can't understand how the speed limit law control the Capt, Boneheads around the summer camps? ...

That's simple. Captain Boneheads that move to another lake because they don't like the speed limit don't bother summer camps. Captain Boneheads that don't come to Winni because of the speed limits don't bother summer camps.

You can't deny that there is a cowboy atmosphere out there at times. If you are a camp director thinking about sending out canoes, row boats, sailboats and kayaks with children in them then that atmosphere is a serious consideration and worry.

A speed limit will not make Winni into Golden Pond, but it is a viable step to getting the lake under better control. We all know there are performance boaters that have left the lake and claim they will not return while there is a speed limit. Hopefully some of them are the Captains we speak of.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

That's simple. Captain Boneheads that move to another lake because they don't like the speed limit don't bother summer camps. Captain Boneheads that don't come to Winni because of the speed limits don't bother summer camps.

You can't deny that there is a cowboy atmosphere out there at times. If you are a camp director thinking about sending out canoes, row boats, sailboats and kayaks with children in them then that atmosphere is a serious consideration and worry.

A speed limit will not make Winni into Golden Pond, but it is a viable step to getting the lake under better control. We all know there are performance boaters that have left the lake and claim they will not return while there is a speed limit. Hopefully some of them are the Captains we speak of.

Something I would hope for as well. Unfortunately, Hope doesn't feed the bulldog. I would assume mostly a-holes would leave and go elsewhere, which is what many hoped for in the first place I'm sure. Heck, I'd support them leaving as well.

With all of the problems endured by the summer camps, one would think that the MP would have had a field day, PRE-SL Law. But apparently they either didn't patrol the trouble zones much, or their actions had no impact?

Funny how we've come back full circle to some of the original sources of the discussion

Forgetting about the SL law, compromise, and all that BS for a minute. Let me try something different.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

You can't deny that there is a cowboy atmosphere out there at times. If you are a camp director thinking about sending out canoes, row boats, sailboats and kayaks with children in them then that atmosphere is a serious consideration and worry.

A speed limit will not make Winni into Golden Pond, but it is a viable step to getting the lake under better control. We all know there are performance boaters that have left the lake and claim they will not return while there is a speed limit. Hopefully some of them are the Captains we speak of.

I can't deny it and I won't deny it. This was the crux of a discussion recently between elchase and myself and others. I firmly believe that cowboy atmosphere is ever present on the lake and has not been affected by the new law. This supports my main point. I truly believe that any resources directed at this law is a waste. True, Winni will never be confused with Golden Pond but I think this was the wrong step. It deflected attention away from the real problem.

I still question whether or not a large amount of boaters actually possess a Boaters License. A kid at one of the Marina's sort of confirmed that for me when he told me that many people ask him what the fine is for driving a boat without a license. But I digress.

I think the current law was thrown in as a supposed cheap and easy magic bullet that many thought would "fix" the lake. I don't think by my experiences that anything has been fixed. I know it's early but it doesn't look promising.

As for the camps, if you know where I am you'll know that there are two camps very close to me. I see what you mean with your concern about the campers safety. I see people using the kids in kayaks and sailboats like a slalom course. Instead of altering their course and giving the kids a huge buffer they pick the gaps between the pack of boats. Scary stuff. However, I've never observed this activity taking place at more than 25-35 MPH. Not saying it hasn't happened before it just seems that generally speaking speed isn't the issue with this one.

So I defer to my point that we are targeting the minority problem in hopes of fixing the majority problem. I have a hard time with that correlation.

Also, I hope you don't see these posts as ganging up on you it just seems that you are the only SL Supporter interested in engaging in actual debate right now.

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I can tell you the exact moment when I knew Winnipesaukee needed a speed limit. I was taking to the director of a non-profit children's camp on the lake and he told me he could not let his small boats go out on the lake on certain days because of the lakes cowboy atmosphere. I have subsequently spoken to other camp directors on the lake that said much the same thing.

Reason number two is that as a former NH camp director I support the New Hampshire's Camp Directors Association endorsement of speed limits.

I have other reasons for supporting a speed limit, but the ones above are all I need.

It is the concerns of people like the camp director that BI mentions that my position shifted somewhat from anti-speed limit to boating safety. Anti seemed too negative.

I believe most want boating safety. I am also for everyone being able to enjoy the lake.


R2B

[pm203]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I can tell you the exact moment when I knew Winnipesaukee needed a speed limit. I was taking to the director of a non-profit children's camp on the lake and he told me he could not let his small boats go out on the lake on certain days because of the lakes cowboy atmosphere. I have subsequently spoken to other camp directors on the lake that said much the same thing.

Reason number two is that as a former NH camp director I support the New Hampshire's Camp Directors Association endorsement of speed limits.

I have other reasons for supporting a speed limit, but the ones above are all I need.

If the safety of the children is the primary responsibility of the camps, shouldn't the camps restrict themselves to safer parts of the lake? Why should it be the other way around?

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by pm203

If the safety of the children is the primary responsibility of the camps, shouldn't the camps restrict themselves to safer parts of the lake? Why should it be the other way around?

What part of the lake is safe?????

[pm203]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

What part of the lake is safe?????

Maybe certain coves/bays or other areas that could be roped off.

[KTO]

Alright I feel like adding my two cents, most of which will be shot down in a second. I'm also returning to the "compromise" idea about 100 posts back.

1) How about a weekend speed limit? Isn't that statistically when the most accidents/Cap'n Bonehead situations occur? I've been on the lake twice on a weekend this summer and both times we ran into people who can't follow 150' rules (Some apparently can't even measure 20', it seems). The lake is just too crowded on the weekend, unfortunately.

2) My numbers would be 60/30. Have you ever been on a jetski? They are meant to go fast and are pretty easy to control if you know what you are doing. Jetski is my boat of choice, I've been boating on the lake since I was 2, and knew the lake and the rules even before I took the course. I'm still a smarter driver than many older adults who took the course, why punish the responsible? I agree, the lake is pretty small overall and incredible speeds can be unsafe, but 45 is a bit LOW!

3) A costly idea, so this will never work, but getting more marine patrol on the lake to get people for the original rules that STILL aren't followed. It's a GREAT idea to instate new rules when the old ones don't work. I guess it's all about who gets caught and who doesn't.

4) Here's a compromise. It's the best one actually. The worst part is I'm wasting my time writing it: Why can't we just be responsible boaters? Show a little respect and use a little common sense! Read the rules, understand the rules. Just because you passed a 100 question multiple choice test means nothing unless you can prove this knowledge on the lake, assuming you didn't cheat on that online exam. A little responsibility goes a long way and if Cap'n Boneheads didn't exist, would we even be HAVING a discussion about speed limits? REMEMBER: You don't own the lake, you have to share it with 85,000 +/- other boaters. If sharing is too tough for you, TOUGH!

[Irrigation Guy]

BI - Don't you think the camp directors would be more concerned about someone going say 20-40 mph and 100 feet or less from one of their boats, then say someone going may 50mph plus in the broads or in the an open area hundreds if not thousands of feet from the nearest boat?

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by pm203

If the safety of the children is the primary responsibility of the camps, shouldn't the camps restrict themselves to safer parts of the lake? Why should it be the other way around?

In the first place - The entire lake should be safe enough for children in a canoe! If it isn't then we need to take whatever step are necessary to make it so.

In the second place - A children's camp on the lake must send its boats out from its own waterfront. How would a camp on Bear Island, for instance, launch its canoes, sailboats etc. from another part of the lake. That is just plain silly.

Thirdly - The camps were here first. The Bear Island camps recently celebrated their 100th anniversary. I hope they can still be in operation in another hundred years. And that is what speed limits are REALLY all about.

Originally Posted by LocalRealtor

BI - Don't you think the camp directors would be more concerned about someone going say 20-40 mph and 100 feet or less from one of their boats, then say someone going may 50mph plus in the broads or in the an open area hundreds if not thousands of feet from the nearest boat?

You are getting hung up on the actual speeds involved. It's the cowboy atmosphere that is the problem. Not weather a given boat is going 25, 45 or 65.

In a perfect world a camp director wants to send his boats out on a tranquil empty lake. In the real world he looks out at the way the lake is on a summer weekend and makes a hard choice between sending the boats out or keeping them in.

I doubt any Captain Boneheads understand the hundreds and even thousands of children they are keeping off the lake by their antics. It is also true outside the camps. I know many parents, including me, think twice about letting the kids go out on days when the lake is buzzy.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

In the first place - The entire lake should be safe enough for children in a canoe! If it isn't then we need to take whatever step are necessary to make it so.

In the second place - A children's camp on the lake must send its boats out from its own waterfront. How would a camp on Bear Island, for instance, launch its canoes, sailboats etc. from another part of the lake. That is just plain silly.

Thirdly - The camps were here first. The Bear Island camps recently celebrated their 100th anniversary. I hope they can still be in operation in another hundred years. And that is what speed limits are REALLY all about.

You are getting hung up on the actual speeds involved. It's the cowboy atmosphere that is the problem. Not weather a given boat is going 25, 45 or 65.

In a perfect world a camp director wants to send his boats out on a tranquil empty lake. In the real world he looks out at the way the lake is on a summer weekend and makes a hard choice between sending the boats out or keeping them in.

I doubt any Captain Boneheads understand the hundreds and even thousands of children they are keeping off the lake by their antics. It is also true outside the camps. I know many parents, including me, think twice about letting the kids go out on days when the lake is buzzy.

It's been going on for quite some time from what I've read. Looks like the prisoners have taken over the prison.

See guys, BI and I agree on most of the points. He just holds out Hope that the law will do something, because apparently, nobody else on the lake will. Sounds like somebody's not been enforcing anything for quite some time.

[pm203]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

In the first place - The entire lake should be safe enough for children in a canoe! If it isn't then we need to take whatever step are necessary to make it so.

Maybe in a perfect world, but this will never be reality. There are too many conditions and situations to allow it. Just like every other place in the world, there are certain places children will always be in danger and shouldn't be exposed to .A lake or any body of water should always be of high concern. A speed limit does not address these concerns, as the data proves.

[jrc]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

In the first place - The entire lake should be safe enough for children in a canoe! If it isn't then we need to take whatever step are necessary to make it so....

I agree with BI. With obvious exceptions:

This is a two way street, as long as we have large vessels (up to Mt Washington scale) we must contend with the fact that all vessels must follow some rules of the water. Large vessels cannot stop or turn very fast. If a canoe paddles out in front of the Mt Washinton at 150 feet there will be a problem.

Canoes are not very stable. If you paddle your canoe in a busy area or during high winds, you should be safe from collision but waves and wakes are another matter. No law can fix the wind, and short of banning all boats no law can make a canoe stable.

Finally, just because the lake is safe for children to canoe, it doesn't mean that the lake has to be safe for children in a canoe, when they are not there. For example, on the road school zones are 20 mph when children are present, it doesn't mean that every road is 20 mph all the time. If I see a canoe near my path I slow down, I don't slow down because someday someone might want to canoe.

[Irrigation Guy]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

You are getting hung up on the actual speeds involved. It's the cowboy atmosphere that is the problem. Not weather a given boat is going 25, 45 or 65.

In a perfect world a camp director wants to send his boats out on a tranquil empty lake. In the real world he looks out at the way the lake is on a summer weekend and makes a hard choice between sending the boats out or keeping them in.

I doubt any Captain Boneheads understand the hundreds and even thousands of children they are keeping off the lake by their antics. It is also true outside the camps. I know many parents, including me, think twice about letting the kids go out on days when the lake is buzzy.

I think you may have just agreed with many in opposition of the SL. It's not the speed it's the Captain BH not being careful and giving room properly to those that they should. The existing rules do address those issues and just aren't being enforced, a SL isn't gonna change that.

Originally Posted by onlywinni

I cant operate my boat safely at less than 25mph

Is this true? Your 5000 pound boat is not safe unless you are going over 25? Is this really an argument you want to use for revoking a speed limit? Am I the only one on this forum who is dumbfounded by the logic that we should abolish our speed limit because some people want to ride around in two and a half ton boats that cannot be operated safely at speeds so "slow" as 25 MPH? Are you really telling us that we should feel safe out on the lake with boats that weigh 5000 pounds and cannot be operated safely at a speed below 25 MPH?
I suppose that headway speed for your boat is then 25 MPH and you should have no problem obeying the safe passage law at that speed. Have you even used that argument with the MP? "Officer, I need to go at least 26 for my boat to be safe out here. If I am only going 20 mph, I can't be responsible if I run over a few kayakers."
Imagine a trucker telling a State Trooper "Officer, this 10 ton rig cannot be driven safely at only 65mph, so I have to go faster. May I proceed?"
Oh my. We have some really twisted logic out there. And these are the same people who want to decide for themselves what speeds are prudent?

[onlywinni]

Originally Posted by elchase

Is this true? Your 5000 pound boat is not safe unless you are going over 25? Is this really an argument you want to use for revoking a speed limit? Am I the only one on this forum who is dumbfounded by the logic that we should abolish our speed limit because some people want to ride around in two and a half ton boats that cannot be operated safely at speeds so "slow" as 25 MPH? Are you really telling us that we should feel safe out on the lake with boats that weigh 5000 pounds and cannot be operated safely at a speed below 25 MPH?
I suppose that headway speed for your boat is then 25 MPH and you should have no problem obeying the safe passage law at that speed. Have you even used that argument with the MP? "Officer, I need to go at least 26 for my boat to be safe out here. If I am only going 20 mph, I can't be responsible if I run over a few kayakers."
Imagine a trucker telling a State Trooper "Officer, this 10 ton rig cannot be driven safely at only 65mph, so I have to go faster. May I proceed?"
Oh my. We have some really twisted logic out there. And these are the same people who want to decide for themselves what speeds are prudent?

This is the last time I am going to say anything about Planing Speed, because it has nothing to do with this debate. I called you out on it, because you said all Performance Boaters drive around with trimmed up and bow up on purpose...so I was trying to explain that some of us have to until we are going in the 25mph range. You were the one that brought out the Boattest.com video trying to call me a liar and it just in fact proved my point.

When did I say that I can not go headway speed...instead of debating an issue that is stupid, why dont you debate the real issue here which is the speed limit. Of course you dont want to debate it, you just want to insult the entire Performance Boat Community and paint us all as Reckless...


Let me ask you a Serious Question. If you are sailing in the broads and I pass you 160' away at your precious 45mph speed limit you are ok with that? Based on those stats I believe I am complying with the law?

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by elchase

Is this true? Your 5000 pound boat is not safe unless you are going over 25? Is this really an argument you want to use for revoking a speed limit? Am I the only one on this forum who is dumbfounded by the logic that we should abolish our speed limit because some people want to ride around in two and a half ton boats that cannot be operated safely at speeds so "slow" as 25 MPH? Are you really telling us that we should feel safe out on the lake with boats that weigh 5000 pounds and cannot be operated safely at a speed below 25 MPH?
I suppose that headway speed for your boat is then 25 MPH and you should have no problem obeying the safe passage law at that speed. Have you even used that argument with the MP? "Officer, I need to go at least 26 for my boat to be safe out here. If I am only going 20 mph, I can't be responsible if I run over a few kayakers."
Imagine a trucker telling a State Trooper "Officer, this 10 ton rig cannot be driven safely at only 65mph, so I have to go faster. May I proceed?"
Oh my. We have some really twisted logic out there. And these are the same people who want to decide for themselves what speeds are prudent?

EL, As other have pointed out here you are loosing your logic......onlywinni, is not saying his boat isn't safe below 25 mph..... what he is indicating is that at 25 mph he is comfortably on plane, and feels he has good control of the boat with a quick nimble response that feels in control... as he back down from there the boats starts to back down off the plane and he gets into a region where the boat is bow high (reduced visibility) and probably sluggish to the response... until he backs far enough out of the throttle that the boat settles down in the water....

If you have any type of motor boating experience you understand this concept... appearently you don't.....there is a point with every speed boat, GFBL or just your ordinary run about, where the visibility is poor, your niether on plane or down in the water, and the boat is squirmish in its handling....For onlywinni this is the 20-25 mph range, for me it is around 15-16mph.... hull, load, prop selection, engine torque characteristics, and trim attitude all play a part in this....

In short I understand perfectly what onlywinni is getting at.... do I believe he could change the characteristics of how is boat handles, through prop selection, I sure do....
but his arguement is valid... your logic is aimed at a goal, and when you blurt out what comes to your mind to support that goal you loose your credibility.....

I have always believed that speed limits in certain area's might be need, but not for the whole lake.... but if I have to chose right now the people that make the most sense, are
Woodsy, onlywinni, OCD, and the host of others in opposition of the law.... while those like EL who support the legislation, seem to try and munipulate everything that is said to fit there agenda....

I will say it agian... this is a dam big lake, room for everyone......

[malibu]

What you and I or anyone else thinks is fast in a boat is irrelevant, we’re talking overall safety here. And my family and I are on the water every weekend in a ski boat, it’s been a complete zoo the past two weekends. We encountered numerous boneheads coming within fifty feet of us, but not speeding. Not one of these boneheads were pulled over, as a matter of fact there wasn’t any MP in site. And this is my point, get rid of the useless SL and get serious about real safety. God forbid, but what if two boats collide both doing 35mph and someone is killed, what will be said then. The state needs to increase MP resources by double or triple and enforce the real laws that will make the lake safer for everyone.

Malibu

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by malibu

What you and I or anyone else thinks is fast in a boat is irrelevant, we’re talking overall safety here. And my family and I are on the water every weekend in a ski boat, it’s been a complete zoo the past two weekends. We encountered numerous boneheads coming within fifty feet of us, but not speeding. Not one of these boneheads were pulled over, as a matter of fact there wasn’t any MP in site. And this is my point, get rid of the useless SL and get serious about real safety. God forbid, but what if two boats collide both doing 35mph and someone is killed, what will be said then. The state needs to increase MP resources by double or triple and enforce the real laws that will make the lake safer for everyone.

Malibu

Some people following these threads take the Speed Limit aspect of the debate too literally. There are several things that motivated the support that ended up in the passing of the bill.

1. They don't like performance boats
2. They don't like the people that own them
3. They hate the noise
4. They hate what they perceive as a party hearty culture


Very similar to the nasty generalizations made towards motorcyclists, much more in the past than now. They pretty much had to veil their arguments around safety, and create the perception that there was absolute chaos, mayhem, and Wild Wild West on Lake Winnipesaukee. Then, they set out to market the perception. It's pretty hard to get a law passed if you Just Don't Like them

You'll also find from older threads some things about safety and accidents that may or may not puzzle you. There have been many accidents discussed, two or three in particular. I mentioned a bowrider being driven by a woman on Lake George, also a speed limit lake. She was drunk, and drive (at night) her boat onto shore and beyond. Very similar to most accidents reported, except for the more horrific ones. They almost always involve alcohol, sometimes involve having no lights on after dark.

The main thing to note is this. If the accident does not involve a GFBL boat, chances are, not a single SL supporter will post on the thread. The only one that they did happened to involve the head of an organization that was against the SL. Some pretty nasty things were said about her. They made sure the name Formula appeared in every post about the boat. Disregard the fact that it wasn't a particularly fast boat, and was basically a luxo cruiser type. Some of the nastier posters even made things up along the way, and were particularly offended if alcohol or conditions were brought up.

But many good suggestions have been offered, you mention safety, enforcement, and more funding for the MP. Many of us have brought these up many times. Again, you can pretty much tell who cares about safety and who has other ideas by the responders who are almost always conspicuously absent. We have some "new" posters that simply will not respond to anything directly. That's OK, don't need them.

We've had some people in NE die this year already, many from drowning in cold waters while fishing. Boats US and many LE organizations have stepped up their efforts to educating boaters, particularly fishermen, kayakers, and all early season boaters, about hypothermia. Bass fishing organizations always try and stress the need for wearing their PFD's. Poker Run organizations have stepped up to the plate in recent years, educating and stressing safety. Education is a time-consuming activity, that sees results over years, not months.

The better educated people are about the risks of boating, the less likely it will be to have non-boaters passing laws that do no good.

At any rate. Everyone should thank our host Don, who puts up with us, and gives us the opportunity to state our positions. I'd also suggest that everyone that's taking up his bandwidth, give a donation to the site. It ain't free, and he's one of the best moderators I've ever dealt with.


I'd like this to go further at some point, and hopefully, a relevant organization of boaters that care will come of it.

[LakeSnake]

Originally Posted by malibu

What you and I or anyone else thinks is fast in a boat is irrelevant, we’re talking overall safety here. And my family and I are on the water every weekend in a ski boat, it’s been a complete zoo the past two weekends. We encountered numerous boneheads coming within fifty feet of us, but not speeding. Not one of these boneheads were pulled over, as a matter of fact there wasn’t any MP in site. And this is my point, get rid of the useless SL and get serious about real safety. God forbid, but what if two boats collide both doing 35mph and someone is killed, what will be said then. The state needs to increase MP resources by double or triple and enforce the real laws that will make the lake safer for everyone.

Malibu

I think malibu has hit on the ture issue here. As many have noted the current mayhem on the lake could be corrected with enforcement of existing laws. But everyone is dancing around that fact and spending time/energy on the speed limit debate.

As this year has shown the new speed limit law has done practically nothing to make the lake safer. Adding new or different laws that can't be enforced will accomplish nothing.

We need to spend out time and energy trying to fix the enforcement issue first. Then after we test that for a year or two we can look at the need for any new laws.

I think the enfocement issue has two major factors to start:

1) resources - more MP resources - especially on weekends - as malibu said, we should have one MP in each major bay on the weekend and a few just out patroling. This presence will make people think twice. Ever notice how everyone stops behaving badly on the highway when a cop is around. Those that don't end up on the side of the road having that discussion the LEO.

2) The current judical system (may be wrong word but anyway) is aparently broken. I have heard that if you get a ticket just contest it and no LEO will show up in court - you get off. I think this is the harder one to fix.
- maybe have a dedicated LEO for court appearances around MP violations or something. Or require the one contesting the ticket to pay a court cost regardless of the out come.

Soultions to the enforcement issue is waht we should be focused on - comming up with new laws/compromises is just putting bandaids on the symptoms of the real problem.

I know we are talking money here, which may be why the issue is avoided, but if we want the lake to be a safer place we will have to pay for it somehow.

my 2cents

[KonaChick]

Riding my pwc Saturday in some chop I felt much safer personally going about 45-50 to ride on "top" of the chop instead of at a lower speed where the chop would be taking me for a ride. I also had better visibilty. I have to say I was constantly looking down at my odometer to monitor my speed which took my eyes off the water where they should have been. Technically at 46 mph I could have been given a ticket.....

[onlywinni]

Originally Posted by elchase

And the rest of you should move your "compromise" posts to the opposers thread. "Let us go as fast as we can on the part of the lake that offers the best sailing and salmon-fishing, and let us resume the same aggressive mayhem on the biggest part of the lake that caused all this trouble in the first place, just so we can have our selfish fun". That's a compromise?


Seems odd that your boat struggles so. Boattest.com (no snail boating site) tested it and found differently;
http://www.boattest.com/oem/general-...nk=#TestResult
Their boat was up on plane in 3.9 seconds but took 7.1 seconds to reach 30 mph, suggesting a planing speed well below 25 mph. And the video explains;
"This 26 outlaw runs well at slow speeds too, staying up on plane and under control down to 25 miles per hour, without a lot of fuss over trim tabs or drives to distract the skipper from crowded waterways". Of course, you may have suped up yours to gain top-end speed at the expense of planing speed, but that could simply be solved by the installation of some trim tabs...a very cheap investment compared to the high cost of that boat, eh?


Like many of your comrades on this forum, you are an admitted scofflaw trying to instigate the very arguments you then try to blame on others. Now you want to call those who object to your illegal behavior the "trolls" and silence our side of the issue? Come on.

I've been in my share of performance boats. Very exciting, and I can see how the addiction develops, but I did not feel such high speed belonged on a heavily-trafficed lake. This might be the result of a high speed car accident I was in as a teen that left me keen on the dangers. Of course, when the boats are out there running at high speeds the other boats seem to head for shore and the crowds seem to diminish, but that is not compromising or sharing...it is bullying.

Thanks for confirming my point that I can not operate my boat at less than 25mph safely..which is what I said and Boattest.com said. I have a stock prop and stock trim tabs, but thanks for the advice anyway.

I am not instigating any arguements I am defending my Right to Boat on the Lake against the Inflamatory comments you have made.

I am not trying to silence anybody, I just wanted to point out that you are a Go Fast Boat Hater and are not interested in any Compromise only your own Agenda that Speed Limits are Great and anyone who disagrees with you is Evil.

I admit to breaking the 45mph speed limit often when it is safe to do so and I have said that in several of my posts. I will continue to do so as well and will continue to be a Respectful member of the Winnipesaukee Boating Community.


I dont believe nor have I ever posted that anyone should be able to go as fast or do whatever they want on the lake. Going 55mph anywhere when there is alot of traffic is not Acceptable or safe; however if I am all alone out there why cant I go 55-60mph.

Is my boat really creating that much more of a wake/hazard going 55mph vs 45mph?

[OCDACTIVE]

Very well said onlywinni.... However, you are preaching on deaf ears.. Might as well let him rant and the rest of us work on the compromise which was the purpose of the thread in the first place. As you pointed out Inflamatory comments get you no where on here.

If bear islander is willing to compromise, then obviously there is room for negotiation. It shows many, even the most staunch supporters and opposers, have a willingness to work together. This mutual respect on the lake is what makes Winni one of the best places on Earth..

Don't get dragged down into the mud.... Not worth the time or blood pressure. It is very clear what some peoples motives are and it will be recognized as such.

By the way, any good pics of your 26? Would love to see her.

Take care.

[onlywinni]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Very well said onlywinni.... However, you are preaching on deaf ears.. Might as well let him rant and the rest of us work on the compromise which was the purpose of the thread in the first place. As you pointed out Inflamatory comments get you no where on here.

If bear islander is willing to compromise, then obviously there is room for negotiation. It shows many, even the most staunch supporters and opposers, have a willingness to work together. This mutual respect on the lake is what makes Winni one of the best places on Earth..

Don't get dragged down into the mud.... Not worth the time or blood pressure. It is very clear what some peoples motives are and it will be recognized as such.

By the way, any good pics of your 26? Would love to see her.

Take care.

I hear you loud and clear...

We will have to agree to disagree I guess.

All the photos are in the camera on the boat..when I remember to bring it home I can send you some...

[onlywinni]

I wonder if this idea would have any support.


Within 500 feet of other boats/land 45mph day speed limit and 25mph night

Over 500 feet away from other boats/land no speed limit during the day and 35mph at night?


I want everyone to be able to enjoy the lake. I respect all boaters on the lake.

I personally would never blast through the broads at 45mph anywhere near 150' away from a sail boat, guys fishing, etc because I dont feel it is sensible. However if I am over 500 feet away I dont see what harm I am causing going say 60mph vs 45mph.


--------
I want to apologize to everyone for getting so off topic debating nonsense, when I should have stayed focused on the real issue.


Mark
-------------

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by onlywinni

I wonder if this idea would have any support.


Within 500 feet of other boats/land 45mph day speed limit and 25mph night

Over 500 feet away from other boats/land no speed limit during the day and 35mph at night?


I want everyone to be able to enjoy the lake. I respect all boaters on the lake.

I personally would never blast through the broads at 45mph anywhere near 150' away from a sail boat, guys fishing, etc because I dont feel it is sensible. However if I am over 500 feet away I dont see what harm I am causing going say 60mph vs 45mph.


--------
I want to apologize to everyone for getting so off topic debating nonsense, when I should have stayed focused on the real issue.


Mark
-------------

Another great idea / compromise... Keep the ideas coming. I really think if the legislators would be willing to sit down at the table and discuss this rather then looking at an all or nothing bill, we all can make out and there would be no longer a need to debate at all.

No need to apologize. Trolls at work just like last time...... And these arguments and tactics are beginning to sound and look very very familiar.... tick tock tick tock only time will tell

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by onlywinni

I wonder if this idea would have any support.


Within 500 feet of other boats/land 45mph day speed limit and 25mph night

Over 500 feet away from other boats/land no speed limit during the day and 35mph at night?


I want everyone to be able to enjoy the lake. I respect all boaters on the lake.

I personally would never blast through the broads at 45mph anywhere near 150' away from a sail boat, guys fishing, etc because I dont feel it is sensible. However if I am over 500 feet away I dont see what harm I am causing going say 60mph vs 45mph.


--------
I want to apologize to everyone for getting so off topic debating nonsense, when I should have stayed focused on the real issue.


Mark
-------------

Great thought! I'm thinking this was the original intent of the thread. I myself am guilty of being led off topic. I'm thinking your idea has some merit.

The more your speed increases the more distance required "by law." I am really liking this idea. I think a keep it simple rule would apply and it would read something like this (150 feet under 45 MPH 300 feet over 45 MPH) or something to that effect. As for night time I think a blanket 35 MPH Speed Limit could be put in plac. 25 MPH at night is too slow IMO.

My real feelings lean towards no limits at all but I'd give in to a compromise like this.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

My real feelings lean towards no limits at all but I'd give in to a compromise like this.

Most of us in the opposition agree with you but just showing that we are willing to discuss options shows we are serious about working together and willing to negotiate. Hopefully the people who make the actual decisions are open minded to do the same.

Other then one poster, I would like to hear from the pro-sl crowd if any of these suggestions are agreeable. I know even Bear Islander was a supporter or a compromised bill the first time around. Maybe he would care to chime in on this?

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by onlywinni

I wonder if this idea would have any support.


Within 500 feet of other boats/land 45mph day speed limit and 25mph night

Over 500 feet away from other boats/land no speed limit during the day and 35mph at night?


I want everyone to be able to enjoy the lake. I respect all boaters on the lake.

I personally would never blast through the broads at 45mph anywhere near 150' away from a sail boat, guys fishing, etc because I dont feel it is sensible. However if I am over 500 feet away I dont see what harm I am causing going say 60mph vs 45mph.


--------
I want to apologize to everyone for getting so off topic debating nonsense, when I should have stayed focused on the real issue.


Mark
-------------

Onlywinni, This is the type of idea and thinking that needs to be fostered... this has some good merits to it.... I like the way it keeps the speed wide open when your out in the open....

As for getting off topic, don't worry about it... it shows the true colors of other people.... you had a stance you defended, and made sure you point was understood..... unfortaunatly some people will just never understand......

[Kracken]

Interesting idea, It definitely has some merit. Certainly a rule like that would improve safety and give the MP the ability to stop unsafe operation. It seems like the debate is only one sided. I have seen many ideas and proposals from the people against the speed limit but almost no ideas from the other side. The opposers seem to be reaching out the other side to open true dialog.

We can argue or we can talk. Arguing is much more entertaining but talking may be more constructive.

A couple of things I am questioning here. I would like to discuss these because maybe I am (and others) are misinformed.

1. I keep hearing 45/25 was a compromise. Is this true? It seems like a number that was sort of pulled out of the air, maybe I am wrong, please correct me if I am.
2. It has been stated many times that 95% of the boats on this lake can’t do 45mph. I find that hard to believe. It seems to me any small block on a boat less than 21 feet should be faster than 45.