Seaplane Base and runway 19 Mile Bay Proposed

[Tyler]

FYI, thoughts? See attached link.


https://mcusercontent.com/29ff5285f0c6c9bd742a6e64c/files/85bf0882-d47c-4d43-a836-a6e31ff94165/4.23.2021_ws_final_minutes.pdf

[TheTimeTraveler]

FYI, thoughts? See attached link.

https://mcusercontent.com/29ff5285f0c6c9bd742a6e64c/files/85bf0882-d47c-4d43-a836-a6e31ff94165/4.23.2021_ws_final_minutes.pdf

First I've heard of it, but if it will help in keeping the Pier 19 Store + Gas to stay in business then why not?

[thinkxingu]

I've not heard of this, but the current seaplane operator was selling his plane when I called asking about a flight last month, and he told me there was a new operator about to start up. I'm guessing this would be him/her and think it's a great idea.

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[SAB1]

Cant see it "Flying". Way to much boat traffic. Winter time the bay is pretty mobbed with bob houses. I would think with the Fire Dept boat and Game Warden boat there EMS response times could be impacted.

[CowTimes]

Perhaps I’m missing the market on this, as I’m not involved in aviation. But is the store something that would attract small aircraft to warrant this? It’s a nice store and all, but are people going to literally fly in to go to it?

And for the fuel aspect, could the gas dock even handle aircraft? I don’t know much about aviation, but I would have thought it would be different fuel than for boats, and I don’t think the store has more than one tank, but may be wrong.

Last, I don’t see the concept of using the town pier as feasible. Folks already complain that the town pier is filled and hard to use. Adding planes doesn’t seem to make much sense to me. It also seems part of the concept might be to permit a plane ride business to keep a plane at the town dock? The boats of town residents can’t be docked overnight; at the pier. I don’t see how a plane should be treated differently. And the “alternative” option of building an extension of the existing gas dock is a dead end—the store doesn’t own the docks, the Pier 19 condo association does. Not to mention all of the state shoreland permit issues that this would raise.

I would be interested to hear what folks in the aviation community think about this, particularly for the winter. Would there be a use for a second winter runway, in addition to Alton? And 19 mile bay has a lot of ice fishing activity. How is that going to work?

Seems to me this concept raises way more questions than have been contemplated, and that this was all attempted to be done under the radar. The board of selectmen are right that this needs to be noticed for public hearing before the town agrees to anything on this.

[MAXUM]

With all the hell raised over the noise generated from Camp Belknap I can only imagine how mental the nearby residents will get with the sound of planes landing and taking off.

Might help Mr. Owen's chickens lay eggs though ;)

[BrownstoneNorth]

I don't know what to make of it. From the few things I found online, couldn't tell whether Epic is doing scenic tours with its own plane(s) or the airport is intended for use of private planes.

Owner is Thomas Wood

Phone is 603-724-9104


https://www.nhcompanyregistry.com/companies/epic-seaplane-adventures/

https://www.nhcompanyregistry.com/companies/self-defense-of-new-england-llc-2/

https://airnav.com/airport/NH64

Their Instagram has a few photos of planes, no explanation or any narrative:
ID:: epic_seaplane_adventures

[chachee52]

I guess i'll be the guy that throws the concerns back at the forum.
Boat traffic: There isn't any at the Alton runway? During the summer it is always full of boats, I have actually seen 1 plane in the many years that I have been on the lake land in Alton Bay in the summer.
Bob Houses: Have you seen Alton during a cold winter? It's packed with fisherman and houses (and campers). They just mark the runway and hope that people don't fish on it.
As for the gas and such, not sure why they would need/want gas there. Alton, and Paugus Bay Water runway doesn't have gas (that I know of). So it would be interesting to see what comes of that aspect.
Just something to think about though.

[WinnisquamZ]

With all the hell raised over the noise generated from Camp Belknap I can only imagine how mental the nearby residents will get with the sound of planes landing and taking off.

Might help Mr. Owen's chickens lay eggs though ;)

Here on Winnisquam I listen to planes each Sunday morning practicing touching down and taking off. Actually we enjoy watching them

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[The Real BigGuy]

A few things to note:

1) the certificate is for a private base/runway, as opposed to a public facility and this will require all fly in pilots to obtain prior permission to land. This will minimize traffic.

2) the nh review only looks at the plan/site with regard to approach, departure, and runway size and fixed obstructions. It does not evaluate things like boat traffic, noise, wildlife habitat. Things outside their review parameters are the responsibility of other state/local agencies.

3) it is the responsibility of the pilot of a float plane to determine safe landing conditions and to make that determination taking into account boat traffic. The plane must get out of the way of the boat, not the other way around unless it is an emergency. If the pilot operates unsafely he/she can get their ticket pulled. (In this age of cell phones unsafe operation is pretty easy to document. If only 1 plane is using the base the landing/takeoff may be slightly delayed but the boat traffic I’ve observed in the bay isn’t significant enough to prevent safe operation.

4) The FAA has final review/say and is the agency that issues the final operational permit.

That said, I don’t like the idea. I think waterfront residents on the mainland & Farm & Chase Islands will be unfairly burdened with a tremendous amount of noise. Seaplane takeoffs at 100% throttle are very loud.

I think there is the potential for damage & injury from prop wash for the boats and people at the Pier 19 Association especially if the loading/parking dock ends up as a new pier off of the existing gas dock (which I believe is owned by the store, not the Association.) However, the store is a member of the Association and must be subject to the terms of the Association documents which may not allow the operation. The state may also not allow the installation of a new dock.

I can’t see the town allowing the use of the public dock for commercial purposes plus, the overhang of the float plane wing could interfere with truck/ambulance access to the fire boat.

There is also the question of the Loon population in the bay. While boats, even at high speed, can quickly maneuver to avoid them an airplane on approach/landing/takeoff doesn’t have that luxury.

My hope is that residents of 19 Mile Bay attend the town meetings on the subject to let their voices be heard and that others concerned voice their opinions to the FAA and other state agencies that may be involved in the final decision.


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[Descant]

As a (former) pilot, I'm amazed at some of the comments and negativity here. Yes, a plane makes some noise on take-off, but not more than many boats. The difference is, in a few seconds, at 80 mph the plane is gone. At 35 MPH the boat noise is there for a long time. Landing at idle throttle, hardly any noise. No wake, no erosion, no chewing up the milfoil, etc. etc. With all the McMansions around the ;lake, I'm surprised nobody has a helicopter. There's a sweet sound for you.

Just think, somebody could come along and start a wake-surfing school, doing donuts in the bay, 3 foot wakes, playing a 4000 watt stereo all day, etc. etc.

After a couple of days, you won't even be aware of a seaplane in the area.

[DEJ]

As a (former) pilot, I'm amazed at some of the comments and negativity here. Yes, a plane makes some noise on take-off, but not more than many boats. The difference is, in a few seconds, at 80 mph the plane is gone. At 35 MPH the boat noise is there for a long time. Landing at idle throttle, hardly any noise. No wake, no erosion, no chewing up the milfoil, etc. etc. With all the McMansions around the ;lake, I'm surprised nobody has a helicopter. There's a sweet sound for you.

Just think, somebody could come along and start a wake-surfing school, doing donuts in the bay, 3 foot wakes, playing a 4000 watt stereo all day, etc. etc.

After a couple of days, you won't even be aware of a seaplane in the area.

When a plane is in the water it has to abide by the boating laws as it is considered a boat until in the air. So tell me when a plane is doing 80MPH while still in the water at takeoff how is this legal when the speed limit for boats is 45MPH?

[Seaplane Pilot]

When a plane is in the water it has to abide by the boating laws as it is considered a boat until in the air. So tell me when a plane is doing 80MPH while still in the water at takeoff how is this legal when the speed limit for boats is 45MPH?

Speed limit does not apply to a float plane. The same goes for a no wake zone. A float plane doesn’t have to abide by a no wake zone.

https://law.justia.com/codes/new-hampshire/2010/titlexxii/chapter270/section270-13-a/

[DEJ]

Speed limit does not apply to a float plane. The same goes for a no wake zone. A float plane doesn’t have to abide by a no wake zone.

https://law.justia.com/codes/new-hampshire/2010/titlexxii/chapter270/section270-13-a/

Thanks, that is what I thought but could not find the law/code stating that.
I see you takeoff from mirror lake on occasion, pretty cool.

[FlyingScot]

Like RBG, I don't quite get the logic. Lots of boat traffic. Plus, why there? It's not any sort of destination, and there are other nearby places with much less potential conflict, such as Mirror Lake, as mentioned

[DEJ]

Like RBG, I don't quite get the logic. Lots of boat traffic. Plus, why there? It's not any sort of destination, and there are other nearby places with much less potential conflict, such as Mirror Lake, as mentioned

The store owner wants to partner with epic seaplane adventures and run a scenic airplane tours business from this location is my understanding.

[chachee52]

As a (former) pilot, I'm amazed at some of the comments and negativity here. Yes, a plane makes some noise on take-off, but not more than many boats. The difference is, in a few seconds, at 80 mph the plane is gone. At 35 MPH the boat noise is there for a long time. Landing at idle throttle, hardly any noise. No wake, no erosion, no chewing up the milfoil, etc. etc. With all the McMansions around the ;lake, I'm surprised nobody has a helicopter. There's a sweet sound for you.

Just think, somebody could come along and start a wake-surfing school, doing donuts in the bay, 3 foot wakes, playing a 4000 watt stereo all day, etc. etc.

After a couple of days, you won't even be aware of a seaplane in the area.

I agree, and about the helicopters, there's a few that I know of in the Alton area. I can think of 3 houses off the top of my head. They buzz the Broads often.
If it is truely just for a private plane, than more than likely it will only be for 1 plane? My friend lives on a small pond that has TONs of wake surfing boats that are always out on the pond, and a sea plane that takes off and lands at least every night for a short flight around. They never have any issues with "sharing" the water with the plane.
People need to stop worrying about change of things they are not used.
As for the docking at those docks, ok, I'm interested in that aspect of how that works. I don't know much about that area and the docks. But as for the "noise" and the "traffic" that's not an issue.

[P-3 Guy]

With all the McMansions around the ;lake, I'm surprised nobody has a helicopter. There's a sweet sound for you.


Last August, this is how a potential boat buyer made his way to Shep Brown's to take a boat for a test ride.

[ApS]

Last August, this is how a potential boat buyer made his way to Shep Brown's to take a boat for a test ride.
That emblem is the crest for Porsche automobiles. :confused: I'd like one, but I own two! :laugh:

As for boat traffic, Dr. Libby flew a bigger floatplane out of the same area. :rolleye2:

Although they can be moored for short periods, a floatplane would be happiest kept at a wooden RAMP. The gasoline hose would need to be long enough to reach the floatplane's wings.

[P-3 Guy]

That emblem is the crest for Porsche automobiles. :confused: I'd like one, but I own two! :laugh:

As for boat traffic, Dr. Libby flew a bigger floatplane out of the same area. :rolleye2:

Although they can be moored for short periods, a floatplane would be happiest kept at a wooden RAMP. The gasoline hose would need to be long enough to reach the floatplane's wings.

The helicopter is a Robinson R44. No idea why there is a Porsche emblem on it.

[FlyingScot]

Tough to negotiate a discount when you arrive via chopper;)

[C-Bass]

I wonder if he will offer instruction there? I would sure like to add water wings to my cert someday. Can't think of a more fun and convenient place to do it.

[The Real BigGuy]

Video of selectmen’s meeting :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgOoOKovOys


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[Just Wonderin]

The store owner wants to partner with epic seaplane adventures and run a scenic airplane tours business from this location is my understanding.

That is exactly their plan.

[Just Wonderin]

I guess i'll be the guy that throws the concerns back at the forum.
Boat traffic: There isn't any at the Alton runway? During the summer it is always full of boats, I have actually seen 1 plane in the many years that I have been on the lake land in Alton Bay in the summer.
Bob Houses: Have you seen Alton during a cold winter? It's packed with fisherman and houses (and campers). They just mark the runway and hope that people don't fish on it.
As for the gas and such, not sure why they would need/want gas there. Alton, and Paugus Bay Water runway doesn't have gas (that I know of). So it would be interesting to see what comes of that aspect.
Just something to think about though.

The width of Alton Bay is much greater than Nineteen Mile Bay. I can't see the town ever approving the use of Union Wharf. That being said, planes will now need to use one of the gas dock slips at the store. In order for that to be permitted, an L shaped extension needs to be added to the current slip at the gas dock. It will have to be installed along the shoreline, parallel to Route 109. I don't think any plane landing in Alton Bay comes that close to docked boats or a county road.

[CowTimes]

The width of Alton Bay is much greater than Nineteen Mile Bay. I can't see the town ever approving the use of Union Wharf. That being said, planes will now need to use one of the gas dock slips at the store. In order for that to be permitted, an L shaped extension needs to be added to the current slip at the gas dock. It will have to be installed along the shoreline, parallel to Route 109. I don't think any plane landing in Alton Bay comes that close to docked boats or a county road.

This is exactly why this proposal needs to be disclosed to the public, in detail, and addressed at a public hearing. Instead, the proponents tried to get the town to approve an entirely ambiguous proposal without any input from town residents that are directly impacted, and without having an actual plan in place that could be properly considered by the town and its residents. By acknowledging that this needs to go to a public hearing, the board of selectmen appears to understand that this will be a significant issue to not only the town residents that own docks at Pier 19, but all residents that own property around or that use Pier 19.

[chachee52]

The width of Alton Bay is much greater than Nineteen Mile Bay. I don't think any plane landing in Alton Bay comes that close to docked boats or a county road.

I'll agree to disagree on that one. The area around the Gazebo is pretty narrow and has a ton of traffic right next to houses. And yes, I have been there in the summer when a sea plane lands there.
Like I said, the issue I see is the docking, and I did state I know nothing about that part over there.
But the issue with the noise and such I just don't see an issue. There's bigger issues around to worry about than a few seconds of a take off.

[DEJ]

I don't have a problem with the proposed business, the problem I have is the store owner is trying to get the town to modify a town wharf which is owned by the residents of Tuftonboro to accommodate her business without any input from the towns taxpayers. It appears the selectmen to their credit recognize that so we will see what happens going forward.

The store owner has the option of going through the permit process with the state to put an extension on her dock that she owns. This IMO makes much more sense but will obviously take some time and considerable cost to her. Not sure what the condo dock association members think of that idea, time will tell.

[FlyingScot]

I don't have a problem with the proposed business, the problem I have is the store owner is trying to get the town to modify a town wharf which is owned by the residents of Tuftonboro to accommodate her business without any input from the towns taxpayers. It appears the selectmen to their credit recognize that so we will see what happens going forward.

The store owner has the option of going through the permit process with the state to put an extension on her dock that she owns. This IMO makes much more sense but will obviously take some time and considerable cost to her. Not sure what the condo dock association members think of that idea, time will tell.

Exactly. The whole thing has this whiff of the proponents asserting it's not really going to make a difference to anybody, when, obviously, airplanes landing while make a significant difference to many

[Seaplane Pilot]

I can imagine the same type of uproar occurred when the Weirs Seaplane Base was established many decades ago. And as far as I know, public docks are leased to private enterprises in several towns around the lake, so it’s not unprecedented.

[DEJ]

I can imagine the same type of uproar occurred when the Weirs Seaplane Base was established many decades ago. And as far as I know, public docks are leased to private enterprises in several towns around the lake, so it’s not unprecedented.

You are entitled to your opinion, so are those opposed to this. I am only opposed to the use of Union Wharf for this business. As far as I know the store owner or the scenic airplane tours business, epic seaplane adventures has not asked the town to lease space at Union Wharf. From the video I watched of the selectmen's work session on 4/26/2021 where the owner and yourself asked the town to modify the wharf there was never a mention of leasing space for this private enterprise. Perhaps you have info to the contrary.

[Seaplane Pilot]

You are entitled to your opinion, so are those opposed to this. I am only opposed to the use of Union Wharf for this business. As far as I know the store owner or the scenic airplane tours business, epic seaplane adventures has not asked the town to lease space at Union Wharf. From the video I watched of the selectmen's work session on 4/26/2021 where the owner and yourself asked the town to modify the wharf there was never a mention of leasing space for this private enterprise. Perhaps you have info to the contrary.

I have no dog in this fight, but simply stated a fact that public docks are leased out to private businesses. I agree that everything should be above board. I have nothing to do with this business.

[DEJ]

I have no dog in this fight, but simply stated a fact that public docks are leased out to private businesses. I agree that everything should be above board. I have nothing to do with this business.

I agree with what you said about public dock leasing, no question, just do not think it is a good idea for this particular wharf.

[owenoutdoors]

A few things to note:

1) the certificate is for a private base/runway, as opposed to a public facility and this will require all fly in pilots to obtain prior permission to land. This will minimize traffic.

2) the nh review only looks at the plan/site with regard to approach, departure, and runway size and fixed obstructions. It does not evaluate things like boat traffic, noise, wildlife habitat. Things outside their review parameters are the responsibility of other state/local agencies.

3) it is the responsibility of the pilot of a float plane to determine safe landing conditions and to make that determination taking into account boat traffic. The plane must get out of the way of the boat, not the other way around unless it is an emergency. If the pilot operates unsafely he/she can get their ticket pulled. (In this age of cell phones unsafe operation is pretty easy to document. If only 1 plane is using the base the landing/takeoff may be slightly delayed but the boat traffic I’ve observed in the bay isn’t significant enough to prevent safe operation.

4) The FAA has final review/say and is the agency that issues the final operational permit.

That said, I don’t like the idea. I think waterfront residents on the mainland & Farm & Chase Islands will be unfairly burdened with a tremendous amount of noise. Seaplane takeoffs at 100% throttle are very loud.

I think there is the potential for damage & injury from prop wash for the boats and people at the Pier 19 Association especially if the loading/parking dock ends up as a new pier off of the existing gas dock (which I believe is owned by the store, not the Association.) However, the store is a member of the Association and must be subject to the terms of the Association documents which may not allow the operation. The state may also not allow the installation of a new dock.

I can’t see the town allowing the use of the public dock for commercial purposes plus, the overhang of the float plane wing could interfere with truck/ambulance access to the fire boat.

There is also the question of the Loon population in the bay. While boats, even at high speed, can quickly maneuver to avoid them an airplane on approach/landing/takeoff doesn’t have that luxury.

My hope is that residents of 19 Mile Bay attend the town meetings on the subject to let their voices be heard and that others concerned voice their opinions to the FAA and other state agencies that may be involved in the final decision.


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100% agree with your take. We all can't let this pass under the radar.

[knowit]

No seaplane dock on union wharf!

[chasedawg]

No seaplane dock on union wharf!No

No I agree. But what about allowing seaplane dock or any boat dock off the proposed gas docks of the store? Very simple relieve the pressure of the store demanding to use their own association docks. which will not happen

[ApS]

The helicopter is a Robinson R44. No idea why there is a Porsche emblem on it.

Leased by Porsche-USA?

[tis]

It's funny how people hate change. Everybody was upset when they closed the airport in Wolfeboro, but I bet if they wanted to open another one now everybody would have a fit.

[TheTimeTraveler]

I wonder if 19 Mile Bay was selected as a Seaplane Base and Runway because of the easy access to Gasoline?

Personally, I would think that 20 Mile Bay would be a better location for a Seaplane Base because of lessor boat traffic, however there is no gasoline access.

[The Real BigGuy]

There is no “easy access” to gasoline. Air planes need aviation gasoline (avgas)which contains tetraethyllead which was the anti-knock additive removed from motor vehicle gas (mogas)in the 70’s because of pollution concerns. The boat gas sold at Pier 19 is mogas. To serve boats and planes they would have to install another tank. I doubt the DES would permit a second underground tank on the lake side of the road and there are few, if any, fire marshals who will permit an above ground gas tank due to fire concerns. I doubt the store would convert their existing tank to a gas and lose the boat gas business.


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[C-Bass]

I guess one question would be despite having a gas pump there, unless they are pumping a 100LL into the boats, they will need the infrastructure (ie: a separate fuel farm) to fuel the aircraft. Unless something has dramatically changed, I believe an aircraft would be very unhappy drinking anything but a 100LL.

Lets not forget, when I park my Turbine Beaver on floats out there, I will need a fuel farm for Jet-A too. :liplick:

[knowit]

The store owner and her pilot friend went to the town selectmen to ask to modify the town owned Union Wharf Pier. They wanted to cut down some pilings and even offered to do it themselves! The nerve! They never asked for permission
or offered to lease it. It’s almost like they thought they were entitled to use it. If they want to park the plane at their own gas dock, fine. I could care less. But I will mobilize all my resources to stop them from using the town pier. It’s not right. I am really starting to get a little tired of this store owner thinking they can throw their money around and block access to the docks. I and my friends will no longer shop there.

[MAXUM]

Whole thing seems like a dumb idea to me. Anyone with half a brain would come to the same conclusion, having planes and boats in a relatively confined area is an accident waiting to happen. The noise will not be welcomed - again if folks that are in the area complain of the noise that camp Belknap kids make this is going to be far louder and potentially offensive. Expecting or asking the town to make special docking accommodations for planes where there is no direct benefit to the town makes no sense.

Finally the store, hate to say it but the owners are screwed as they own a building, a postage stamp piece of property and have little to no control over their surroundings, not even the parking lot. That is and will always be a problem they cannot solve.

[knowit]

Add to the fact that they paid way too much for it and sunk another way too much amount in the renovation, the return on investment must be a 50 plus year schedule!
Oh it would have been so nice if Skelly’s went in there.

[Shreddy]

I'll play devil's advocate. I think the idea is pretty bad ass. Would be cool to have a seaplane business up this side of the lake. Operation of the seaplane itself shouldn't really have a direct impact on anyone boating as they still need to be cognizant of boaters out there. The noise comment has already been addressed in a previous post. Wharf seems like a reasonable spot but understand the frustrations of providing a spot here.

Most of these posts seem like NIMBY posts either (1) because they're not getting along with the new store owner due to other issues going on or (2) just not open to a new and fun local operation. Be concerned with safety all you want but there's inherent risk in almost everything we do. If you want to operate your life always considering worse case scenarios then I feel bad (especially since this sounds like a one plane operation). I have no dog in the fight but am local enough that I boat around there regularly and would never consider this a concern. Just throwing a different perspective out there.

[Seaplane Pilot]

I'll play devil's advocate. I think the idea is pretty bad ass. Would be cool to have a seaplane business up this side of the lake. Operation of the seaplane itself shouldn't really have a direct impact on anyone boating as they still need to be cognizant of boaters out there. The noise comment has already been addressed in a previous post. Wharf seems like a reasonable spot but understand the frustrations of providing a spot here.

Most of these posts seem like NIMBY posts either (1) because they're not getting along with the new store owner due to other issues going on or (2) just not open to a new and fun local operation. Be concerned with safety all you want but there's inherent risk in almost everything we do. If you want to operate your life always considering worse case scenarios then I feel bad (especially since this sounds like a one plane operation). I have no dog in the fight but am local enough that I boat around there regularly and would never consider this a concern. Just throwing a different perspective out there.

I agree with you. (As I've said before, I have nothing to do with this seaplane business). Lakes Region Seaplane Tours operated for many years in Paugus Bay, which is exponentially busier than 19 Mile Bay no matter what the day or time of day. I'm not aware of any close calls or incidents between the seaplane and boaters during the entire time they operated in Paugus. Therefore, the "safety" argument is not based in reality. Some interesting reading can be found here:

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/seaplane_handbook/

[Descant]

OMG!! They asked the Board of Selectmen ! The HOROR ! This obviously comes as a surprise, but if you want to do business or otherwise use town property for a picnic or a parade or anything else, you have to go through town officials. In this case, that's the BOS. So the seaplane operator did exactly what he was supposed to do. The BOS decided to plan a public hearing with notice to residents. They did exactly what they were supposed to do.
Being angry with either side for doing the proper thing is just plain silly.

[SAB1]

Whole thing seems like a dumb idea to me. Anyone with half a brain would come to the same conclusion, having planes and boats in a relatively confined area is an accident waiting to happen. The noise will not be welcomed - again if folks that are in the area complain of the noise that camp Belknap kids make this is going to be far louder and potentially offensive. Expecting or asking the town to make special docking accommodations for planes where there is no direct benefit to the town makes no sense.

Finally the store, hate to say it but the owners are screwed as they own a building, a postage stamp piece of property and have little to no control over their surroundings, not even the parking lot. That is and will always be a problem they cannot solve.

Spot on! Could'nt have said it better. The Seaplane thing is just another idea to try to get people there and make the store prosper. Heck I want them to succeed but IMO its just a matter of time. Nothing has survived well for years there and now with less of a docking area and minimal parking the writing is on the wall. Keeping that place open in the winter is just going to net a loss. Not enuff business/people around for that.

[knowit]

They didn't just go to the selectmen, They got the state permit then they went to the selectmen in an obvious attempt to avoid going to public hearing which they know will not pass. Even one of the selectmen said to them it seems like you are doing this a bit underhanded. He also said it would have been better to come to them first. Thankfully our selectmen see through her entitled ways. Just because you have money, you do not make the rules.

I am not against the seaplanes, just using town owned property for her money making dreams.

[owenoutdoors]

They didn't just go to the selectmen, They got the state permit then they went to the selectmen in an obvious attempt to avoid going to public hearing which they know will not pass. Even one of the selectmen said to them it seems like you are doing this a bit underhanded. He also said it would have been better to come to them first. Thankfully our selectmen see through her entitled ways. Just because you have money, you do not make the rules.

I am not against the seaplanes, just using town owned property for her money making dreams.

this bay is everyones! Them asking the town for a sea plane dock spot, is like me asking the town for spot to leave my jet ski :laugh:. The madness that will happen during the winter with fisherman I can only imagine...it is the most popular bay during the winter months. Very dangerous for a runway.

[CowTimes]

this bay is everyones! Them asking the town for a sea plane dock spot, is like me asking the town for spot to leave my jet ski

Have to disagree. This is very different. What is being proposed (at least until the selectmen rightfully pointed out the problems with it) is a commercial use of part of the town wharf, without any compensation to the town, without putting it out to bid, and without addressing substantial liability issues if god forbid there was an accident. And that is before addressing the real practical issues of emergency vehicle access the selectmen are concerned about.

I would suggest that folks interested in this issue take the time to watch the YouTube video of the selectmen’s meeting where this was discussed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgOoOKovOys

What struck me most was the blank check the store and plane operator wanted from the town, and without any actual plans or proposals in place. There was lots of bobbing and weaving around what it would be used for, and pushing to get the selectmen to approve it without any public input, even after the selectmen repeatedly raised the problems with doing so. There was discussion of things from seaplane festivals, to potential private charters dropping off area residents commuting from Boston or NYC, to individual planes coming for an ice cream, and countless other potential uses of the seaplane base. And most perplexing to me is that the store owner—who seems to have no aviation experience—would be the one that makes decisions about which planes can and can’t land and dock at the town wharf. We’re supposed to believe that the store is going to tell a plane coming to do business at the store not to land because the bay is too busy?

And as for the potential alternative of the store building additional dock area next to the gas pumps, it would be interesting to see actual plans for such a proposal. One would need to see the proximity to the boat slips and gas dock where boats gas up (not planes, at least not without installing a second fuel tank/pump, that almost certainly would not be permitted by the state), as there are unquestionably safety issues there. And then you have a state highway right there, and you can’t have wings of airplanes hanging over the highway. So lots of unanswered questions, and that is all, of course, before whatever state process would be required for the shoreland issues.

And while we’re on the discussion of the store adding additional dock space, if that is a real possibility, why the heck is the store trying to shake down the dock owners to use their private dock area for store customers if the store could just build their own additional docking area?

[MAXUM]

I'll play devil's advocate. I think the idea is pretty bad ass. Would be cool to have a seaplane business up this side of the lake. Operation of the seaplane itself shouldn't really have a direct impact on anyone boating as they still need to be cognizant of boaters out there. The noise comment has already been addressed in a previous post. Wharf seems like a reasonable spot but understand the frustrations of providing a spot here.

Most of these posts seem like NIMBY posts either (1) because they're not getting along with the new store owner due to other issues going on or (2) just not open to a new and fun local operation. Be concerned with safety all you want but there's inherent risk in almost everything we do. If you want to operate your life always considering worse case scenarios then I feel bad (especially since this sounds like a one plane operation). I have no dog in the fight but am local enough that I boat around there regularly and would never consider this a concern. Just throwing a different perspective out there.

I have no vested interest in the area so I don't care either way just speaking from a position of logic and reasonable thinking here. I don't exactly know the location of the proposed landing area BUT if it is anywhere in the bay it just seems to small to be safe. Consider the entrance is not exactly huge, if anything it's a bit of a pinch point. Plane captains can be as safe as can be but think about the moron boaters who either are unaware or don't care a plane is on final and thinks they have the right of way. I'm not a pilot but I would imagine there is only so much that can be done to quickly react in a wave off situation.

If the landing strip is outside the bay with the planes taxi in that seems a little more safe, again think worst case scenario where a plane comes in and for whatever reason has a problem and crashes - how much open area is there free and clear of people, houses, boats, etc... to where no collateral damage is done, or is unlikely.

Ideally it would make sense to demark the landing area so at least boaters would be aware of the landing area. Not that all boaters understand the already existing markers on the lake just sayin.

Far as the dock and land situation it's a complete mess I can't see how well it would work trying to get planes into that town dock even if the town said OK. Seems like it's a liability nightmare to be honest. Now having them park along the shore\beach along 109 would make more sense to me but I don't know if that is possible. At least it would keep the planes and boats from getting mixed up and avoid a possible accident.

Frankly I can see it possible it could work but much thought would need to be given to the logistics.

[owenoutdoors]

Have to disagree. This is very different. What is being proposed (at least until the selectmen rightfully pointed out the problems with it) is a commercial use of part of the town wharf, without any compensation to the town, without putting it out to bid, and without addressing substantial liability issues if god forbid there was an accident. And that is before addressing the real practical issues of emergency vehicle access the selectmen are concerned about.

I would suggest that folks interested in this issue take the time to watch the YouTube video of the selectmen’s meeting where this was discussed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgOoOKovOys

Yes I agree I was just overly simplifying the comparison. Either scenario is ridiculous in my opinion.

Thank you for the video share. I combed through a portion of it, but here are my favorite quotes :laugh:

"this is a process, so I was just hoping that I can get your (town) help and just get going to not lose the season"
"you help me I help you"
"one way or another we are going to do it"

Sounds like entitlement to me. We all have to go through the process for a dock and no one deserves special treatment from the town. Especially a commercial business. Selectman need to kill this. Entertaining it is idiotic and disservice to the residents of tuftonboro

[knowit]

Now we all are seeing how entitled the store owner thinks she is. Watch video of the meeting very closely. Her comments are sickening. She thinks cus she overpaid for a store that will never return her investment it is somehow the town’s fault and the town owes this to her?

[FlyingScot]

I have no vested interest in the area so I don't care either way just speaking from a position of logic and reasonable thinking here. I don't exactly know the location of the proposed landing area BUT if it is anywhere in the bay it just seems to small to be safe. Consider the entrance is not exactly huge, if anything it's a bit of a pinch point. Plane captains can be as safe as can be but think about the moron boaters who either are unaware or don't care a plane is on final and thinks they have the right of way. I'm not a pilot but I would imagine there is only so much that can be done to quickly react in a wave off situation.

If the landing strip is outside the bay with the planes taxi in that seems a little more safe, again think worst case scenario where a plane comes in and for whatever reason has a problem and crashes - how much open area is there free and clear of people, houses, boats, etc... to where no collateral damage is done, or is unlikely.

Ideally it would make sense to demark the landing area so at least boaters would be aware of the landing area. Not that all boaters understand the already existing markers on the lake just sayin.

Far as the dock and land situation it's a complete mess I can't see how well it would work trying to get planes into that town dock even if the town said OK. Seems like it's a liability nightmare to be honest. Now having them park along the shore\beach along 109 would make more sense to me but I don't know if that is possible. At least it would keep the planes and boats from getting mixed up and avoid a possible accident.

Frankly I can see it possible it could work but much thought would need to be given to the logistics.

I'm here with my sailboat a couple of times a month, and I agree. I would would add wind speed and direction to the concerns you lay out--a complicating issue for both sailors and small planes that can often prevent both from going in the direction they would prefer. It's just too tight in there to add planes into the mix without a real problem.

[FlyingScot]

Updating my previous post with more specifics, now that I've watched some of the video posted by CowTimes. The pilot consultant to the store owner says that that planes cannot land within 500' of land of 300' of a moving vessel. So obviously they are landing west of Chases Island, and looking for a landing area that is 200 yards across with zero boats. I don't know the length of the runway required, maybe SP can weigh in. But just based on width, I can't imagine a legal landing on a weekend in the summer.

The store owner reminds me of the Dive guys. Whether you like their initiatives or not, it's easy to see how they dream big but don't really think about the pesky details required for success.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Updating my previous post with more specifics, now that I've watched some of the video posted by CowTimes. The pilot consultant to the store owner says that that planes cannot land within 500' of land of 300' of a moving vessel. So obviously they are landing west of Chases Island, and looking for a landing area that is 200 yards across with zero boats. I don't know the length of the runway required, maybe SP can weigh in. But just based on width, I can't imagine a legal landing on a weekend in the summer.

This is covered by Title 14 CFR 91.119, and isn't specific to seaplanes. Here's some related information:

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/lgb/local_more/media/FAA_Guide_to_Low-Flying_Aircraft.pdf

http://c-spa.org/v2/uploads/SPA_Water_Flying_article_Accept_When_Necessary_Oct 2010s.pdf

[chasedawg]

Updating my previous post with more specifics, now that I've watched some of the video posted by CowTimes. The pilot consultant to the store owner says that that planes cannot land within 500' of land of 300' of a moving vessel. So obviously they are landing west of Chases Island, and looking for a landing area that is 200 yards across with zero boats. I don't know the length of the runway required, maybe SP can weigh in. But just based on width, I can't imagine a legal landing on a weekend in the summer.

The store owner reminds me of the Dive guys. Whether you like their initiatives or not, it's easy to see how they dream big but don't really think about the pesky details required for success.

I heard the same description of the landing area. There is not enough room to land and take off with those measurements in 19 mile bay at anytime.. We do have had a seaplane land and take off along the north side of chase point. From Camp Belknap to the end of Chase Point. That is when there are no boats in sight. I just can't image any seaplane taking off or landing in that area. How did the state approve this petition? Who came out and measured or better yet observe the kind of boat traffic there are during the week and the weekends.

Any one concerned about the loons and baby chicks. The Farm Island development certainly got a lot of attention concerning loons nesting. This needs much more investigation and proof points.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Hello everyone!

We were just made aware of this thread on the forum and thought I would join in on the conversation.

I would like to address anyone’s concerns! Feel free to ask or PM me or just call! I hope to have a great discussion about these developments. However, I want to warn you, I come with logic and facts; emotion and hyperbole will not be entertained, sorry. I do realize that I can’t spell very well, I’m a pilot after all and am an expert in abbreviation and acronyms! I also realize that I can’t please everyone.

1) Right off the bat, I would like to address the false narrative that is being perpetuated that this is a proposal to establish a Seaplane Base with the town. Nothing could be farther from the truth. What is being proposed is the lowering of the dock posts on the North side of the town docks, at no cost to the town tax payers at all. Establishing a Seaplane Base is not something that the town can approve, that is done by the state and the FAA.

2) I would like to address some claims that this was done “under the radar”. These claims are also false. As someone stated, we went to the selectman! Isn’t this part of the process? It’s not as if we went out in the middle of the night and cut down dock posts. For anyone being critical can you please tell me the process and exactly where it is spelled out to have the dock posts lowered at the town dock? I need a checklist, I’m a pilot! There is a separate process that I followed to certify the landing area, but that has nothing to do with the town government. After following the state process this is when the dock post issue popped up so we came to the town. There are no secrets. Imagine if you needed a public hearing to take your boat to the town dock! There is technically no difference. This is about dock posts. Here is the state process that we followed. https://www.nh.gov/dot/org/aerorailtransit/aeronautics/programs/documents/Howtoregisteranewairportstepbystep162017.pdf

This “landing area” certification is nothing more than the state giving their approval saying that it is safe to do so and they provided a process to get the certification. Is anyone here willing to say that the State of New Hampshire is wrong? Please bring this to our attention. The state approved the plan. We are sympathetic to anyone's emotional reaction but to make accusations that we didn’t follow the process is just not true. Making statements that this was done “under the radar” is not accurate.

3) All we want is safe equal access to the docks. Someone stated that the town dock is not a seaplane dock. This is not true. Although the dock was not specifically designed for seaplanes, it is a dock. If a boat can access the dock legally, so can a seaplane. A seaplane on the water must comply with the same regulations as a boat. The proposal is to lower the height of the dock posts. I’m not sure how anyone can say that this is ambiguous. Those posts serve zero purpose being that high. This will allow the tails of aircraft to be less of a concern at the dock, but to be very clear, the dock posts are only a minor obstruction and do not prevent aircraft from coming to the dock now, if the pilot was so inclined to, under the right weather conditions.

4) We are not scared or hiding from a public hearing at all! We want to have a healthy conversation and ensure that the community is happy, inclusive and not discriminating against anyone based on anything, like a poor vessel with wings! What I think is being confused is what the purpose of the public hearing is for. I do not believe the public hearing is to see if a vessel can come to the town dock, it is to see if the dock posts can be lowered. Again, imagine if you needed a public hearing to see if you can bring your boat to the town dock. This is the same thing. We simply want equal access. This isn’t about the plane coming in or going out this is about lowering the dock posts.

5) The concerns about blocking the dock for Fire and EMS were very legitimate. However, after further investigation and discussion the concerns were addressed. An aircraft at the dock would never be left unattended and could be moved at a moment’s notice, unlike some of the commercial barges that load and unload equipment at the docks regularly. A long conversation with the Fire Chief has taken place and I have answered questions to his satisfaction. In fact, I ask anyone skeptical about this subject please watch the video. Start at about the 46 minute mark. The Selectman pointed out that there is a “trash day” for islanders, where a dumpster is left on the pier so that islanders can bring their rubbish to dispose of. Can anyone think of a bigger obstruction to the fire boat than a dumpster left on the pier? In fact, just yesterday there was a huge furniture delivery vehicle blocking the pier and putting furniture onto a barge for some islanders. Certainly, an attended seaplane presents a significantly smaller obstacle to Fire and EMS services. We just ask for equal treatment and consideration.

6) Speaking of commercial barges! Do they pay the town to use the docks? If so, then any commercial operator would be expected to pay the same amount for sure! I grew up on Melody Island and know that many of the people who live out on the islands get serviced by the barges when they need work from contractors. I used to work on the Kitty Bell Barge. To anyone who lives on the islands, I ask, are you paying the town to have your contractors use the dock? If so, how much? We would be glad to go through the same equal process.

7) Noise! Have you ever heard the jet skis all day? Or the plentiful cigarette/offshore racing boats on the lake? A small seaplane has far less horsepower and less noise. How about a bunch of boats rafting up and playing music? We just want the same equal consideration. Again, this isn’t about seaplanes flying into the bay, this is about dock posts being lowered.

8) Traffic in the Bay? Aircraft must give way to boats while landing, until they are on the water, then they become a boat per the regulations (aside from speed and no wake exemptions). Keep in mind pilots are highly trained and go through annual physical and aircraft training on a regular basis. One step farther are tour operators. They are drug and alcohol tested as well as need to obtain certification from the FAA. Boaters are hardly held to the same standards. Pilots must adhere to much higher safety protocols than the boaters. This is some of the training that we go through. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjiXlKTCylg Also, there has been much discussion online about the distances aircraft must stay away from vessels. In the video I stated from memory 500’ and 300’. I would like to correct the record. It’s 500’ (FAR 91.119) and 150’ (NH boating rules). There is a clear “exception” and that is when taking off and landing. Obviously, an aircraft trying to land or take off cannot stay 500’ above the ground so they make exceptions. Please also reference FAR 91.115- right of way rules on water.

9) In the winter, if there isn’t a safe place to land then guess what will happen? Pilots will not land there. There is nothing stopping anyone from landing there now. I did this winter and it was a blast! Here is a video of my friend flying around the area on skis… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGkBQY02fkg

10) This area is rich in the history of seaplanes. In fact this last year was the 100th anniversary of having a seaplane base on Lake Winnipesaukee. I invite anyone to contact the Seaplane Pilots Association to find out more information. https://seaplanepilotsassociation.org/

11) I operate in and out of Mirror Lake now. I went through the legal process and we have a great relationship with the homeowners of the lake and were actually featured in the town newspaper last year! The people love it! I welcome anyone to come out and see us. https://www.tuftonboro.org/sites/g/files/vyhlif5096/f/uploads/times_fall_2020_interactive.pdf

Again, this proposal to the town is merely to lower the dock posts on the North side of the town docks. This will allow small seaplanes to access the dock without any chance of hitting their tail on the posts. Nothing more and nothing less! All the emotion and fear needs to be toned down. We are open, honest and not afraid of any questions. We want to do this the correct way, with no corners cut at all. If that means that the Selectmen think there should be a public hearing then we welcome that! All we want is equal access. The North side of the town docks doesn’t get used by many boats anyway because it is so shallow. The town has a unique opportunity to become a transient stop for seaplanes! We hope that we have answered most of your questions and concerns and look forward to meeting everyone!

Fly Safe!

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[FlyingScot]

Hello everyone!

We were just made aware of this thread on the forum and thought I would join in on the conversation.

I would like to address anyone’s concerns! Feel free to ask or PM me or just call! I hope to have a great discussion about these developments. However, I want to warn you, I come with logic and facts; emotion and hyperbole will not be entertained, sorry. I do realize that I can’t spell very well, I’m a pilot after all and am an expert in abbreviation and acronyms! I also realize that I can’t please everyone.

1) Right off the bat, I would like to address the false narrative that is being perpetuated that this is a proposal to establish a Seaplane Base with the town. Nothing could be farther from the truth. What is being proposed is the lowering of the dock posts on the North side of the town docks, at no cost to the town tax payers at all. Establishing a Seaplane Base is not something that the town can approve, that is done by the state and the FAA.

Except that your "facts" are misleading, and your disdain for what you call emotion and hyperbole is insulting to those raising legitimate questions on noise and safety.

I don't have the energy to go point by point, but just taking this first and most obvious one--OK, so you do not need "to establish a Seaplane Base with the town", but apparently you do need for the town's cooperation to make your state approved Seaplane Base usable.

It is completely appropriate for the town to deny you any sort of leeway if they believe you are not acting in the best interest of the town.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

I appreciate your reply. Your statement saying "we need the town", I would agree with, in that we are asking for the towns permission to lower the height of the dock posts.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[Descant]

Welcome to the Forum and thank you for the concise and correct information.
Since you have been on Mirror Lake for some time, that should answer a lot of questions.

Good luck.

[CowTimes]

It is completely appropriate for the town to deny you any sort of leeway if they believe you are not acting in the best interest of the town.

Agreed. And it should not be forgotten that the pier is a town dock, and the town can regulate its use. Just as the town prohibits overnight boat docking, the town could entirely preclude the use of the dock by seaplanes.

The town selectmen and residents have every right to be concerned about a seaplane base in 19 mile bay using the town docks There may not currently be a prohibition against the use of the dock for seaplanes, but that should not be confused with the apparent perception that there will be an unregulated entitlement to such use going forward, particularly after asking the town to permit modifications for such use.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Hey thanks! When I did this process for Mirror Lake we did not have a public hearing at all. Why? Because it wasn't required.

All we have done is followed this process. When the dock post issue came up we followed the process to propose that the dock posts be lowered. It's a simple as that. Nothing more and nothing less.

Incidentally, there are also approved landing areas in Winter Harbor and Alton Bay as well.

Please don't confuse this with a place that is legal for a plane to land. This certification is the state's approval to say that it safe by the state and then able to be listed in the directory and put on the charts.

A seaplane can land anywhere it is not prohibited to land and the pilot feels it is safe.

Thank you!Welcome to the Forum and thank you for the concise and correct information.
Since you have been on Mirror Lake for some time, that should answer a lot of questions.

Good luck.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[Shreddy]

Agreed. And it should not be forgotten that the pier is a town dock, and the town can regulate its use. Just as the town prohibits overnight boat docking, the town could entirely preclude the use of the dock by seaplanes.

The town selectmen and residents have every right to be concerned about a seaplane base in 19 mile bay using the town docks There may not currently be a prohibition against the use of the dock for seaplanes, but that should not be confused with the apparent perception that there will be an unregulated entitlement to such use going forward, particularly after asking the town to permit modifications for such use.

How many people do you know own seaplanes and are vying for that area and are looking to be "entitled"? I really don't see much "entitlement" here and quite frankly it seems like the owner is pretty open and transparent, now even engaging in a reasonable manner without a negative tone. Again, I don't have a dog in this fight but I think it would be cool to have up this side of the lake and quite frankly with the local NIMBY type responses being expressed here I tend to side hoping they get what they ask for. Opposition is fine, but opposition without merit and with a constant negative demeanor is everything that's wrong with our society nowadays.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

I think we can all agree to that.

Just like the concerns about obstructing the dock have been brought up and commercial operations have been brought up.

What exactly are your concerns lowering the dock posts?

Agreed. And it should not be forgotten that the pier is a town dock, and the town can regulate its use. Just as the town prohibits overnight boat docking, the town could entirely preclude the use of the dock by seaplanes.

The town selectmen and residents have every right to be concerned about a seaplane base in 19 mile bay using the town docks There may not currently be a prohibition against the use of the dock for seaplanes, but that should not be confused with the apparent perception that there will be an unregulated entitlement to such use going forward, particularly after asking the town to permit modifications for such use.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[owenoutdoors]

How many people do you know own seaplanes and are vying for that area and are looking to be "entitled"? I really don't see much "entitlement" here and quite frankly it seems like the owner is pretty open and transparent, now even engaging in a reasonable manner without a negative tone. Again, I don't have a dog in this fight but I think it would be cool to have up this side of the lake and quite frankly with the local NIMBY type responses being expressed here I tend to side hoping they get what they ask for. Opposition is fine, but opposition without merit and with a constant negative demeanor is everything that's wrong with our society nowadays.

You did not watch the same video I did. She comes off as she has a right to control the town dock and that she will get her way no matter what. A sea plane base is not needed here and would be dangerous. The bay is busy enough during the summer months and would provide 0 benefit to the town and frankly her store. She has no more right to the town dock then other citizens of Tuftonboro. If anyone wants to to go on a seaplane tour there are plenty of places around the lake. There is no need to take a town asset and give a commercial business private use of it. There is no need to cause more chaos in the summer and potential dangerous interactions with boats.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Also, the very people calling for the public hearing protesting to the lack of transparency should please post their names, in the spirit of transparency.

Thank you.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[The Real BigGuy]

I think ESA makes good points although I do believe some are disingenuous. First he mentions he has established a base on Mirror Lake and has had no problems. He doesn’t mention that he uses his own private dock for his plane, not a public dock. My question would be, why doesn’t he run the sightseeing flights out of his base on Mirror Lake. Second he states that he followed the process to get the base approve. He did. However, he and the storeowner blindsided the town and the selectmen. Wouldn’t it have been more productive to go to the selectmen first, explain what he/they wanted to do and get input from the town on what their concerns might be?

I just think the whole approach was wrong. The base brings no benefit to the town that I can see. It may be a positive for the store but for who else? EPA, can you shed some light on this?


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[owenoutdoors]

Also, the very people calling for the public hearing protesting to the lack of transparency should please post their names, in the spirit of transparency.

Thank you.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

And you are using "Epic Seaplane Adventures".

Most residents of Tuftonboro do not want this. From this thread anyone that doesn't care "has no stake". Why should the town give a commercial business private use over a town asset? This seems like a useless tourist attraction for the town and for the town to help you expand your business. The only attraction we need is the lake. You also have failed to answer the rebuttal that the wings will overhang onto the dock preventing cars driving or people walking on the wharf. Your response for the sound these planes will generate is justified because there are jet skis and loud boats? Bad take. The solution isn't to throw planes into the mix and create even more noise pollution :laugh:

[thinkxingu]

Also, the very people calling for the public hearing protesting to the lack of transparency should please post their names, in the spirit of transparency.

Thank you.

Epic Seaplane AdventuresHi, and welcome to the forum.

I love the idea of having a seaplane center/landing place/whatever you call it over there and hope it would help the store owners, etc.

Question, though: how often would the plane be taking up public dock space? There's only really space for a few boats there as it is, and my real only concern is that much of what's available might be lost.

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[DEJ]

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

I love the idea of having a seaplane center/landing place/whatever you call it over there and hope it would help the store owners, etc.

Question, though: how often would the plane be taking up public dock space? There's only really space for a few boats there as it is, and my real only concern is that much of what's available might be lost.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

I like the idea of this business however the store owner should expand her own dock for it. She has said she is here for the long term so a delay in getting state permits should be no issue is true.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

I love the idea of having a seaplane center/landing place/whatever you call it over there and hope it would help the store owners, etc.

Question, though: how often would the plane be taking up public dock space? There's only really space for a few boats there as it is, and my real only concern is that much of what's available might be lost.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)Great question. This came up with the Fire Chief as well. He was making the assumption that there was going to be a plane at the dock all the time. Imagining a carnival ride with a line forming. This is not the case.

All we are asking for is a place safe and equal access to pick up and drop off, based on a reservation system.

All this aside, commercial barges come and go from the pier all the time. Picking up and dropping off. As far as I know the town doesn't prohibit them or charge them a fee. We just would expect equal treatment.

Is it wrong to ask for the same equal treatment?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

Great question. This came up with the Fire Chief as well. He was making the assumption that there was going to be a plane at the dock all the time. Imagining a carnival ride with a line forming. This is not the case.

All we are asking for is a place safe and equal access to pick up and drop off, based on a reservation system.

All this aside, commercial barges come and go from the pier all the time. Picking up and dropping off. As far as I know the town doesn't prohibit them or charge them a fee. We just would expect equal treatment.

Is it wrong to ask for the same equal treatment?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Regarding the barges they are not running a business from the wharf as you would be doing is the difference IMO. Your business use of the wharf will be determined by the residents of Tuftonboro if they want to allow this as it is their property.

[winni83]

Public information from the NH Secretary of State’s website. Not naming names, but for some publicly available information, go to:

https://sos.nh.gov/corporation-ucc-securities/corporation/business-name-lookup/

Click on Quick Start.
Enter Epic Seaplane in the search box.
In search result, click on Epic Seaplane
Scroll down to Trade Name Owned By and click on the name shown.
Scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on Filing History.
Click on business formation.

[CowTimes]

What exactly are your concerns lowering the dock posts?


Residents have valid concerns about altering town property so that a commercial enterprise can be operated off a town wharf, reducing non-commercial public use, without any compensation to the town or opening it up for public bid. And that is before safety concerns.

There is an attempted narrative here that this is just about a few inches of wood on dock posts. It is much more than that. This as about an attempt to use public property for commercial use (both for the seaplane ride business and the store). While seaplanes may currently have every right to land on the lake with appropriate distances, etc, that doesn’t mean a seaplane operator has a right to use the town dock for a commercial purpose to run tours. The town and its residents have a valid interest here, and the town selectmen are properly concerned. For the same reason I can’t park my food truck on the wharf without a permit, etc, a charter/tour business can’t be run from a town dock. That is what the proponents are trying to disguise.

It is a very different discussion if this was being proposed off private property. It seems obvious that the desire to use the town dock is to avoid this expense. But the town and its residents have no obligation to subsidize the store or a new charter/tour business off town property.

That is why all of the self-serving platitudes about experience on Mirror Lake and private use are inapposite.

[DEJ]

Residents have valid concerns about altering town property so that a commercial enterprise can be operated off a town wharf, reducing non-commercial public use, without any compensation to the town or opening it up for public bid. And that is before safety concerns.

There is an attempted narrative here that this is just about a few inches of wood on dock posts. It is much more than that. This as about an attempt to use public property for commercial use (both for the seaplane ride business and the store). While seaplanes may currently have every right to land on the lake with appropriate distances, etc, that doesn’t mean a seaplane operator has a right to use the town dock for a commercial purpose to run tours. The town and its residents have a valid interest here, and the town selectmen are properly concerned. For the same reason I can’t park my food truck on the wharf without a permit, etc, a charter/tour business can’t be run from a town dock. That is what the proponents are trying to disguise.



It is a very different discussion if this was being proposed off private property. It seems obvious that the desire to use the town dock is to avoid this expense. But the town and its residents have no obligation to subsidize the store or a new charter/tour business off town property.

That is why all of the self-serving platitudes about experience on Mirror Lake and private use are inapposite.

Could have not said it better myself, thank you.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Also, allow seaplanes to transit the area and have equal access to the dock by lowering the posts. We aren't suggesting making the dock a permanent place to keep any planes, just make it accessible.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

I think you are making a lot of assumptions that are not accurate.

We are talking about having equal access to picking up and dropping off.

Is this not the same thing that barges do?

No one is talking about setting up shop and sitting there all day.

This is about lowering dock posts to make it safer for seaplanes to pickup and drop off/and or come to the store for ice cream or whatever else they do. Same as the boaters do.

Also, if the dock is full then the plane can't come in, same as a boat.

What am I missing?Residents have valid concerns about altering town property so that a commercial enterprise can be operated off a town wharf, reducing non-commercial public use, without any compensation to the town or opening it up for public bid. And that is before safety concerns.

There is an attempted narrative here that this is just about a few inches of wood on dock posts. It is much more than that. This as about an attempt to use public property for commercial use (both for the seaplane ride business and the store). While seaplanes may currently have every right to land on the lake with appropriate distances, etc, that doesn’t mean a seaplane operator has a right to use the town dock for a commercial purpose to run tours. The town and its residents have a valid interest here, and the town selectmen are properly concerned. For the same reason I can’t park my food truck on the wharf without a permit, etc, a charter/tour business can’t be run from a town dock. That is what the proponents are trying to disguise.

It is a very different discussion if this was being proposed off private property. It seems obvious that the desire to use the town dock is to avoid this expense. But the town and its residents have no obligation to subsidize the store or a new charter/tour business off town property.

That is why all of the self-serving platitudes about experience on Mirror Lake and private use are inapposite.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[TheVoiceOfReason]

I think you are making a lot of assumptions that are not accurate.

We are talking about having equal access to picking up and dropping off.

Is this not the same thing that barges do?

No one is talking about setting up shop and sitting there all day.

This is about lowering dock posts to make it safer for seaplanes to pickup and drop off/and or come to the store for ice cream or whatever else they do. Same as the boaters do.

Also, if the dock is full then the plane can't come in, same as a boat.

What am I missing?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

What you're missing is that once you mention the following:

All we are asking for is a place safe and equal access to pick up and drop off, based on a reservation system.

then you make the transition from a seaplane owned by a private citizen who would like to stop at the town docks to run into the store into a commercial tour operator in the same way the M/S Mount Washington and her sister ships operate. CowTimes couldn't have said it any better, and you seem like a smart person, so I'm sure you see the difference and are just trying to minimize the ask in the eyes of the public with the "it's just a few posts that need lowering". I can't see the town opening itself up to the increased liability that comes from having an airplane charter service operating from their dock. It sounds like a great business idea, just something that needs to be run from a private dock.

[CowTimes]

I think you are making a lot of assumptions that are not accurate.

We are talking about having equal access to picking up and dropping off.

Is this not the same thing that barges do?

No one is talking about setting up shop and sitting there all day.

This is about lowering dock posts to make it safer for seaplanes to pickup and drop off/and or come to the store for ice cream or whatever else they do. Same as the boaters do.

Also, if the dock is full then the plane can't come in, same as a boat.

What am I missing?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

You have set up a very poor strawman with the barges and claiming unequal treatment. The reason barges use the town wharf is that is the only way for TOWN RESIDENTS on the islands to get access for building materials, septic pump outs, etc. So what you characterize as a business using the dock is an entirely proper use for town residents that pay property taxes. Indeed, the main benefits that the island residents get from their costly property taxes are emergency services (ie, the fire boat the selectmen want to be sure is not impaired by seaplanes) and use of this wharf for such purposes (island residents don’t use schools, don’t have roads to maintain, etc.).

Respectfully, the only obvious reason a tour/charter operator teamed up with the store is so there would be a fig leaf for letting planes fly in for an ice cream cone. I’m no pilot, but I have my doubts that a private plane is going to fly in from hundreds of miles away just to get an ice cream cone, particularly when there is no gas facility.

This would be a different conversation entirely if you were not proposing a tour/charter business being based off town property. But without that, you wouldn’t be involved with this to begin with.

[SAB1]

One has to wonder where these plane riders will park their vehicles..................

[FlyingScot]

What am I missing?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

The thing you are missing is that no one objects to the barges themselves. We all recognize that they are important to our neighbors in various ways, and they are not much more intrusive or dangerous than a boat.

People do have a variety of objections to planes and/or this type of business usage of a dock. So as you might expect, they are in no hurry to enable planes on their (town's) facility.

[MAXUM]

I think you are making a lot of assumptions that are not accurate.

We are talking about having equal access to picking up and dropping off.

Is this not the same thing that barges do?

No one is talking about setting up shop and sitting there all day.

This is about lowering dock posts to make it safer for seaplanes to pickup and drop off/and or come to the store for ice cream or whatever else they do. Same as the boaters do.

Also, if the dock is full then the plane can't come in, same as a boat.

What am I missing?

Epic Seaplane Adventures


Barge operators are not asking the town to modify the existing dock. They use it as is.

Secondly you are not entitled to equal access if the means of use requires special consideration. Just in the same way an 18 wheeled big rig can't just operate wherever they want as some roads are not equipped to handle a truck of it's size and weight.

I think the town needs to put higher dock posts up with night time lighting installed. That would be far more beneficial to the residents. Maybe I'll write the town and suggest that.

[TheTimeTraveler]

Also, allow seaplanes to transit the area and have equal access to the dock by lowering the posts. We aren't suggesting making the dock a permanent place to keep any planes, just make it accessible.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Welcome to the Winnipesaukee Forum, and thank you for your willingness to accept and respond to questions or criticism.

I think it is a great opportunity for you to respond to anyone who does have legitimate questions and to answer their concerns.

My question is where do you plan to refuel your plane, and how often do you project you will need to refuel? Are some special precautions in place to assure none of the fuel will get into the lake during the refueling process?

Again, thank you for answering member questions.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

You have set up a very poor strawman with the barges and claiming unequal treatment. The reason barges use the town wharf is that is the only way for TOWN RESIDENTS on the islands to get access for building materials, septic pump outs, etc. So what you characterize as a business using the dock is an entirely proper use for town residents that pay property taxes. Indeed, the main benefits that the island residents get from their costly property taxes are emergency services (ie, the fire boat the selectmen want to be sure is not impaired by seaplanes) and use of this wharf for such purposes (island residents don’t use schools, don’t have roads to maintain, etc.).

Respectfully, the only obvious reason a tour/charter operator teamed up with the store is so there would be a fig leaf for letting planes fly in for an ice cream cone. I’m no pilot, but I have my doubts that a private plane is going to fly in from hundreds of miles away just to get an ice cream cone, particularly when there is no gas facility.

This would be a different conversation entirely if you were not proposing a tour/charter business being based off town property. But without that, you wouldn’t be involved with this to begin with.By strawman you mean... Good point?

I didn't catch your name.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[CowTimes]

By strawman you mean... Good point?

I didn't catch your name.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

No- strawman means the opposite, but you knew that. Which is why there is no valid response as to the purpose of barges and their inherent benefit for and need by town island residents, as compared to, here, only your pecuniary business interests.

You’ll catch my name at the town meeting, if this “proposal” gets that far. That is because I, unlike you apparently, am a town resident that pays for this wharf with my property taxes.

Good businesses need to be good neighbors. Neither you nor the store are off to a good start here.

[thinkxingu]

Great question. This came up with the Fire Chief as well. He was making the assumption that there was going to be a plane at the dock all the time. Imagining a carnival ride with a line forming. This is not the case.

All we are asking for is a place safe and equal access to pick up and drop off, based on a reservation system.

All this aside, commercial barges come and go from the pier all the time. Picking up and dropping off. As far as I know the town doesn't prohibit them or charge them a fee. We just would expect equal treatment.

Is it wrong to ask for the same equal treatment?

Epic Seaplane AdventuresAt the risk of being a nudge, would you kindly provide some info on how long it takes to load/unload and taxi and how many flights you'd be looking to do on a normal day?

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[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

At the risk of being a nudge, would you kindly provide some info on how long it takes to load/unload and taxi and how many flights you'd be looking to do on a normal day?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)That's a great question! Loading and unloading would not take any longer than a boat loading and unloading.

And as far as how many times a plane would come in and out it is undetermined. However a 30-minute flight would take an entire hour including safety briefing, loading, taxiing, docking and unloading. I hope that helps.

I appreciate everyone's input and questions...

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

No- strawman means the opposite, but you knew that. Which is why there is no valid response as to the purpose of barges and their inherent benefit for and need by town island residents, as compared to, here, only your pecuniary business interests.

You’ll catch my name at the town meeting, if this “proposal” gets that far. That is because I, unlike you apparently, am a town resident that pays for this wharf with my property taxes.

Good businesses need to be good neighbors. Neither you nor the store are off to a good start here.I am a town resident that pays my taxes for the pier as well...

I appreciate your passion. Hiding behind a keyboard throwing darts isn't very productive to a good conversation. Feel free to call me up and discuss this at length.

Thank you.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[CowTimes]

That's a great question! Loading and unloading would not take any longer than a boat loading and unloading.

And as far as how many times a plane would come in and out it is undetermined. However a 30-minute flight would take an entire hour including safety briefing, loading, taxiing, docking and unloading. I hope that helps.

I appreciate everyone's input and questions...

Epic Seaplane Adventures

So, for each flight, the plane would be at the town wharf for approximately a half hour, and a half hour in the air? Or close to a half hour at the dock per flight? Your statement that it would “not take any longer than a boat loading and unloading” seems either disingenuous or intentionally misleading, as you’re omitting the safety briefing and other time at the dock.

And presuming that you want to make a profit, you would have the maximum number of flights that you could operate in a day, right? How many flights would that be in a day? 8 flights back to back for a full 8-hour day? 10 or 12 on weekends? And if you need to do safety briefings and loading/unloading at the dock for a half hour, you’re looking to potentially occupy the town owned wharf for half of the day for your business, no?

Saying it is undetermined is avoiding a fair question—it is what I would call assertion of “the businessman’s Fifth Amendment” privilege against self-incrimination. You should at least disclose what the maximum number of flights per day would be.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

So, for each flight, the plane would be at the town wharf for approximately a half hour, and a half hour in the air? Or close to a half hour at the dock per flight? Your statement that it would “not take any longer than a boat loading and unloading” seems either disingenuous or intentionally misleading, as you’re omitting the safety briefing and other time at the dock.

And presuming that you want to make a profit, you would have the maximum number of flights that you could operate in a day, right? How many flights would that be in a day? 8 flights back to back for a full 8-hour day? 10 or 12 on weekends? And if you need to do safety briefings and loading/unloading at the dock for a half hour, you’re looking to potentially occupy the town owned wharf for half of the day for your business, no?

Saying it is undetermined is avoiding a fair question—it is what I would call assertion of “the businessman’s Fifth Amendment” privilege against self-incrimination. You should at least disclose what the maximum number of flights per day would be.I'm open to a rational discussion but you keep adding things in that aren't true. I understand your opposition but you are twisting things into something it is not.

You are reading into things and letting your emotion get a hold of you.

I stand by my comment that loading and unloading will not take any longer than a boat. You making a statement that I will be at the dock for a half an hour is incorrect.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[CowTimes]

I'm open to a rational discussion but you keep adding things in that aren't true. I understand your opposition but you are twisting things into something it is not.

You are reading into things and letting your emotion get a hold of you.

I stand by my comment that loading and unloading will not take any longer than a boat. You making a statement that I will be at the dock for a half an hour is incorrect.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Then disclose what you would consider to be the maximum time your plane would be at the town dock on any given day, and how you get to that amount of time. Hiding behind assertions of “emotion” getting in the way of rational discussion and questions isn’t helpful to your cause. These are real and legitimate questions that you are refusing to answer here and instead respond with intentional ambiguities.

Town residents aren’t naive. We know what it takes to run a successful business. And a few minutes every couple hours at the dock doesn’t add up.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Then disclose what you would consider to be the maximum time your plane would be at the town dock on any given day, and how you get to that amount of time. Hiding behind assertions of “emotion” getting in the way of rational discussion and questions isn’t helpful to your cause. These are real and legitimate questions that you are refusing to answer here and instead respond with intentional ambiguities.

Town residents aren’t naive. We know what it takes to run a successful business. And a few minutes every couple hours at the dock doesn’t add up.You say I'm hiding information. Do you think I would come on to this forum and answer questions if I were hiding?

I grew up in this town. I went to high school here.

I have never made any accusations that the people of this town are not smart. That would be insulting myself.

I could give a hypothetical like I did to the selectman and the fireman, but I cannot be specific because the business has not started. You know this you are just being an antagonist. Again I invite you to call me at anytime and discuss rather than be a keyboard warrior in disguise. I'm not trying to be disrespectful but I feel like you are being extremely disrespectful.

My hypothetical that I gave to the fire chief and copied the selectman on the email was an example that if there were business hours between 10:00 a.m. and 7:00 p.m., just using that as an example (not specific at all) that my business plan was to never book more than one flight per hour.

Again I ask for your name so we can keep this respectful and transparent.

However, this is a distraction from the issue at hand which is asking the town to lower the docks posts.

You are framing your argument as anti-business use of the town pier. There are businesses using the pier now.

If your argument is anti-airplane then that is a completely different argument and discriminatory.

Have a wonderful day.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[CowTimes]

You say I'm hiding information. Do you think I would come on to this forum and answer questions if I were hiding?

I grew up in this town. I went to high school here.

I have never made any accusations that the people of this town are not smart. That would be insulting myself.

I could give a hypothetical like I did to the selectman and the fireman, but I cannot be specific because the business has not started. You know this you are just being an antagonist. Again I invite you to call me at anytime and discuss rather than be a keyboard warrior in disguise. I'm not trying to be disrespectful but I feel like you are being extremely disrespectful.

My hypothetical that I gave to the fire chief and copied the selectman on the email was an example that if there were business hours between 10:00 a.m. and 7:00 p.m., just using that as an example (not specific at all) that my business plan was to never book more than one flight per hour.

Again I ask for your name so we can keep this respectful and transparent.

However, this is a distraction from the issue at hand which is asking the town to lower the docks posts.

You are framing your argument as anti-business use of the town pier. There are businesses using the pier now.

If your argument is anti-airplane then that is a completely different argument and discriminatory.

Have a wonderful day.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

So we’re starting to get some helpful information here, thank you. Based on that, the maximum flights would be around 9 per day. And how long per flight would you be at the dock? You already said each flight is only 30 mins in the air. So what am I missing as to how you would not be at the dock for approx a half hour per flight, ie up to 4.5 hours per day?

I am being as respectful as I can. Pressing you for answers is not disrespectful. You came onto a semi-public forum to plead your case. Expect to be pressed.

You keep asking that we take this discussion private. But that is part of the problem you first encountered by trying to use town property for commercial purposes without meaningful public disclosure. The public should hear your answers and see this discussion. As you can see from my profile, I am a Tuftonboro island resident—pressing for more is just attempting to suppress discussion on this forum over something you, not I, need town approval for.

[thinkxingu]

You say I'm hiding information. Do you think I would come on to this forum and answer questions if I were hiding?

I grew up in this town. I went to high school here.

I have never made any accusations that the people of this town are not smart. That would be insulting myself.

I could give a hypothetical like I did to the selectman and the fireman, but I cannot be specific because the business has not started. You know this you are just being an antagonist. Again I invite you to call me at anytime and discuss rather than be a keyboard warrior in disguise. I'm not trying to be disrespectful but I feel like you are being extremely disrespectful.

My hypothetical that I gave to the fire chief and copied the selectman on the email was an example that if there were business hours between 10:00 a.m. and 7:00 p.m., just using that as an example (not specific at all) that my business plan was to never book more than one flight per hour.

Again I ask for your name so we can keep this respectful and transparent.

However, this is a distraction from the issue at hand which is asking the town to lower the docks posts.

You are framing your argument as anti-business use of the town pier. There are businesses using the pier now.

If your argument is anti-airplane then that is a completely different argument and discriminatory.

Have a wonderful day.

Epic Seaplane AdventuresI guess I'm caught up in the timing piece. 10-7 with one flight per hour is 8 or 9 taxiings/loadings/unloadings/safety briefings. I can't imagine that process being less than half an hour? That being the case, and adding some time to wait for late/slow passengers, I gotta think you'd be using the public space for at least 4-5 hours a day? And let's say you've got an empty slot—where would the plane go then?

It sounds like you've got the taking off/landing piece and other details thought out, but, as a boater who uses those public docks, I'm struggling to see how it would be ok to base a business there.

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[winni83]

Perhaps Epic and the Dive employ the same public relations consultant??

[DEJ]

There are plenty of businesses that use the town owned wharf but do not base their business off of it. Like think said I also am struggling to see how it would be ok to base a business there. Guess time will tell, anyone know when the public hearing will be?

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

I guess I'm caught up in the timing piece. 10-7 with one flight per hour is 8 or 9 taxiings/loadings/unloadings/safety briefings. I can't imagine that process being less than half an hour? That being the case, and adding some time to wait for late/slow passengers, I gotta think you'd be using the public space for at least 4-5 hours a day? And let's say you've got an empty slot—where would the plane go then?

It sounds like you've got the taking off/landing piece and other details thought out, but, as a boater who uses those public docks, I'm struggling to see how it would be ok to base a business there.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)Thanks for your opinion. I have a question for you. When you dock at the town pier in your boat what is the time limit before someone asks you to leave?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

There are plenty of businesses that use the town owned wharf but do not base their business off of it. Like think said I also am struggling to see how it would be ok to base a business there. Guess time will tell, anyone know when the public hearing will be?That is an assumption that is incorrect on your part. The business is not based at the town dock.

I am simply asking people not to discriminate against me. I'm only asking for the dock post to be lowered.

My FAA approved operating certificate allows me to pick up and drop off anywhere that it is legal. There are no stipulations attached. Someone could reserve a flight from anywhere in the area and I would be able to pick them up and drop them off as long as I had access. I am simply asking for equal access to the town pier.

I hope that message is loud and clear.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[CowTimes]

Thanks for your opinion. I have a question for you. When you dock at the town pier in your boat what is the time limit before someone asks you to leave?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Apples and oranges. Private use (purpose of town property) vs commercial use (not).

Please explain how both my and thinkxingu got the math wrong here on how long you’d be using the town wharf (and refer to prior discussion of evading direct questions with intentional ambiguities).

[thinkxingu]

Thanks for your opinion. I have a question for you. When you dock at the town pier in your boat what is the time limit before someone asks you to leave?

Epic Seaplane AdventuresThe differences are:
1. I'm not making money off of using the public space.
2. It's once every-so-often, not every day or multiple days.
3. It's for one period of time, not a whole portion of day.

Also, what do you plan to do to keep the space available? Specifically, what will happen if all the spots are filled when you come to land?

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[DEJ]

That is an assumption that is incorrect on your part. The business is not based at the town dock.

I am simply asking people not to discriminate against me. I'm only asking for the dock post to be lowered.

My FAA approved operating certificate allows me to pick up and drop off anywhere that it is legal. There are no stipulations attached. Someone could reserve a flight from anywhere in the area and I would be able to pick them up and drop them off as long as I had access. I am simply asking for equal access to the town pier.

I hope that message is loud and clear.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Your message is loud and clear and it appears the good folks in Tuftonboro see right through your attempt to use town property for your private business. You are not helping yourself with these comments. Perhaps we should thank you for them. When is the public hearing or whatever you want to call it going to be Epic?

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Apples and oranges. Private use (purpose of town property) vs commercial use (not).

Please explain how both my and thinkxingu got the math wrong here on how long you’d be using the town wharf (and refer to prior discussion of evading direct questions with intentional ambiguities).First off I am completely open to civil discussion and answering questions.

As a resident of cow Island you should know that there are plenty of people who use the town pier to make money. Ie commercial barges. Are you insinuating that commercial barges should be treated differently?

I think you are the one that is mixing apples and oranges. You make an argument that business shouldn't be able to use the town dock. But you yourself higher businesses that use the town dock. That is the definition of hypocrisy.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[The Real BigGuy]

The town pier has a 3 hour limit.

It is interesting to me that you are having trouble answering questions that would appear to me to be central to your business plan. You know your fixed costs, and you can estimate your variable costs. I assume you also know what your revenue/flight is. Based on that you should be able to estimate your flights per day and the amount of time you will use the dock. Have you thought of paying the town a per flight fee for use of dock space and guaranteeing a per day fee?


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[CowTimes]

I am simply asking people not to discriminate against me. I'm only asking for the dock post to be lowered.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Invoking “discrimination” here is borderline offensive and not at all what is going on. If you are referring to the barges, see discussion above as to how those are being used as a necessity for town island residents to inhabit the islands.

The town wharf is not open for commercial use on a first come first serve basis. I can’t park my food truck there all day. A realtor can’t locate a sales shed there. A seaplane tour/charter business is not different.

[CowTimes]

First off I am completely open to civil discussion and answering questions.

As a resident of cow Island you should know that there are plenty of people who use the town pier to make money. Ie commercial barges. Are you insinuating that commercial barges should be treated differently?

I think you are the one that is mixing apples and oranges. You make an argument that business shouldn't be able to use the town dock. But you yourself higher businesses that use the town dock. That is the definition of hypocrisy.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

You still haven’t answered my and thinkxingu‘s direct question...

[thinkxingu]

Epic, I realize that it might appear as if we're ganging up on you, but that's not my intention. Thank you kindly for answering my questions, and good luck!

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[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Invoking “discrimination” here is borderline offensive and not at all what is going on. If you are referring to the barges, see discussion above as to how those are being used as a necessity for town island residents to inhabit the islands.

The town wharf is not open for commercial use on a first come first serve basis. I can’t park my food truck there all day. A realtor can’t locate a sales shed there. A seaplane tour/charter business is not different.Your comparisons are completely absurd. I think the more you talk I think the more the lurking readers of this forum see your point of view. I appreciate you exposing that and discussing this with me. You are completely discriminating against me because I fly an airplane.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[lakewinnie]

Epic Seaplane Adventure:

I have been following this thread as best as I can. Can you please clarify:

1) Is it accurate to say that the maximum time that your seaplane would be at the dock is 4-5 hours on any one day? I believe that the maximum time I am allowed to dock my boat at some of the town docks is 3-4 hours.

2) If I understand it correctly, the plane would need to be docked for approx. 30 minutes before it takes off. How long would it be at the dock to unload the passengers after it returns?

3) Would the reservations be sequential? If not, and there is a one or two hour gap between the end of one flight and the beginning of another flight, where would the seaplane go? Would it stay at the town dock?

4) Where would your passenger customers park there vehicles while they are on your plane?

Thank you.

[DEJ]

STOP the discrimination nonsense Epic!!! We are posting our opinions. I ask again when is the public hearing on your proposal scheduled for?

[CowTimes]

Your comparisons are completely absurd. I think the more you talk I think the more the lurking readers of this forum see your point of view. I appreciate you exposing that and discussing this with me. You are completely discriminating against me because I fly an airplane.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

No discrimination here. So I can be crystal clear, I oppose use of town property as a base for any commercial operations. Incidental use, such as the barges picking up lumber for island residents, residents docking to use the store, and island realtors dropping off and picking up clients has always been the case. That is incidental commercial use. Basing a seaplane or any other business on town property for commercial use is very different.

And you still haven’t explained how my math of having a plane at the dock for half the day is wrong, which we will have to take as confirmation.

[The Real BigGuy]

That is BS. Cow Times is right. As a tax paying town resident I need access to the pier for my contractors. They are not asking the town to make any accommodation for them to use the pier. I believe that your last response is one that someone backed into a corner would make. I’m still trying to understand how running your business out of the town pier is different then parking a food truck on the dock.


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[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

No discrimination here. So I can be crystal clear, I oppose use of town property as a base for any commercial operations. Incidental use, such as the barges picking up lumber for island residents, residents docking to use the store, and island realtors dropping off and picking up clients has always been the case. That is incidental commercial use. Basing a seaplane or any other business on town property for commercial use is very different.

And you still haven’t explained how my math of having a plane at the dock for half the day is wrong, which we will have to take as confirmation.Do you own a barge? You hire the barge to do a service correct? There is no difference.
Period. You are masking your discrimination by using your "entitlement" that you are an Island resident.

You don't like airplanes we get it.

Thanks [emoji106]

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

STOP the discrimination nonsense Epic!!! We are posting our opinions. I ask again when is the public hearing on your proposal scheduled for?By definition it is discrimination...

noun
1.
the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things...

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[mhtranger]

Do you own a barge? You hire the barge to do a service correct? There is no difference.


As I see it it is quite different, the barge loads good and vacates the dock. Maybe there an hour or so as material is secured to the deck. To not return until the next load. Maybe same day maybe not.

[Sundancer320]

So, you came on here looking for an open discussion and when you’re pressed you get obstinate and a bit unhinged. It does not help your case by accusing people who will be affected by this operation of discrimination and insulting them. You’re argument of the barge use at the town dock is laughable. No matter how you slice it you are going to “base” your enterprise on the town dock and make money from its use. Residents who use the barges for delivery of supplies do so only sparingly, maybe once a season. You’re talking about several days a week, several times a day. If a barge operator were to sit at the town dock and hit up people for work or services, you might have a point. Even if you want to play semantics and say it’s not based there because you’re office is really in the garage at home, you’re still operating the business from a common place. The town dock.

[DEJ]

Epic, when is the hearing scheduled for or has it not been scheduled yet?

[CowTimes]

Do you own a barge? You hire the barge to do a service correct? There is no difference.
Period. You are masking your discrimination by using your "entitlement" that you are an Island resident.

You don't like airplanes we get it.

Thanks [emoji106]

Epic Seaplane Adventures

I like planes. And I probably would’ve been a customer if you had a private base or were located at an airport. Not a town owned wharf. And my verdict is still open if you were based at a private dock in the bay (I would want to better understand the safety issues there).

Tell me, please. Why shouldn’t I be allowed to park my food truck on the wharf for half the day? Or tie up my pontoon with an ice cream stand?

By feigning discrimination, you are ignoring the fundamental differences between basing a commercial operation on the wharf and incidental use. You say the operation would not be based there—but if tours take off there, land there, have safety briefings there, and park there, and have the plane there for half the day, it’s based there.

[DEJ]

CowTimes, he has the ability to operate his business from his private dock on mirror lake where he keeps his plane in the water much of the summer. He could advertise these scenic flights right from there and avoid the congestion and fireboat and emergency vehicle issues and wharf issues etc... by conducting his business there. Problem solved.

[gillygirl]

I guess I'm caught up in the timing piece. 10-7 with one flight per hour is 8 or 9 taxiings/loadings/unloadings/safety briefings. I can't imagine that process being less than half an hour? That being the case, and adding some time to wait for late/slow passengers, I gotta think you'd be using the public space for at least 4-5 hours a day? And let's say you've got an empty slot—where would the plane go then?

It sounds like you've got the taking off/landing piece and other details thought out, but, as a boater who uses those public docks, I'm struggling to see how it would be ok to base a business there.

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He’s not at the dock when he’s taxiing. And safety briefings can occur when he’s taxiing. When do commercial airlines do their safety briefings? ��


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[gillygirl]

No discrimination here. So I can be crystal clear, I oppose use of town property as a base for any commercial operations. Incidental use, such as the barges picking up lumber for island residents, residents docking to use the store, and island realtors dropping off and picking up clients has always been the case. That is incidental commercial use. Basing a seaplane or any other business on town property for commercial use is very different.

And you still haven’t explained how my math of having a plane at the dock for half the day is wrong, which we will have to take as confirmation.

Taxiing and safety briefings don’t occur at the dock. They probably occur simultaneously, like on a commercial airplane. Why would you think half an hour of air time translates to half an hour on the dock?


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[TiltonBB]

Interesting thread. And, I will give Mr. Epic credit for at least standing up and answering the questions, even if some of the answers seem a little skewed in his favor. It is also a credit that he is a long time town resident not an outsider trying to drop in, open a business, and change the rules.

A couple of questions:

1. What happens if you come back from a flight and there are no open docks for an hour?

2. Where is the aircraft going to be kept when not being used in 19 mile bay?

[CowTimes]

Taxiing and safety briefings don’t occur at the dock. They probably occur simultaneously, like on a commercial airplane. Why would you think half an hour of air time translates to half an hour on the dock?


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That’s a good question, which I have been asking all afternoon. My guess is that there are safety and liability issues that require the safety briefing before getting on the plane, given the noise in one of these vs a commercial plane. But I haven’t got a straight answer after asking the question several times as to how long the plane would be at the dock, assuming back-to-back reservations (and as others pointed out, that may not be the case)

[Sundancer320]

That’s a good question, which I have been asking all afternoon. My guess is that there are safety and liability issues that require the safety briefing before getting on the plane, given the noise in one of these vs a commercial plane. But I haven’t got a straight answer after asking the question several times as to how long the plane would be at the dock, assuming back-to-back reservations (and as others pointed out, that may not be the case)

This is a single pilot operation. The pilot will conduct the briefings before they leave the dock and will not be able to safely maneuver the plane while also trying to give a safety brief. My guess is once all passengers are at the plane, they will receive a 10 minute or so safety brief then load and go.

[CowTimes]

As I see it it is quite different, the barge loads good and vacates the dock. Maybe there an hour or so as material is secured to the deck. To not return until the next load. Maybe same day maybe not.

This is a good point. I will add that in all my years in Tuftonboro and regular use of the town wharf, I have seen a barge there less than a half dozen times. And never on the weekend, which is the busiest time for use of the wharf, and which would presumably be the same for prime operation of a charter/tour business.

[knowit]

I am in the process of having “No seaplanes at Union Wharf!” bumper stickers printed up. I will advise when they are available. We need to stop the for profit use of a town owned asset right now! Build your own damn dock!

[knowit]

And here’s another option for you, I know the Pier 19 Marina has an entire side of a dock finger they aren’t using. Why don’t you ask them for permission to use it?
Oh, that’s right, the Pier 19 Store is at war with their own association. She’s such a great business owner that she tried to block their access to their own docks! No thanks, we don’t need her entitled crap.

[Sundancer320]

I think this venture has too much liability exposure to the town. All it takes is one clumsy, overweight, near sighted, inebriated etc... passenger to take a tumble off the plane/dock/float and get seriously injured for the town to be pulled into a lawsuit. I spent my life in aviation and a lot of time working around floatplanes. It can be hazardous..I don’t care how much training or experience an operator has. Sometimes they can’t control the unknown factor called “passenger”

[chasedawg]

That is an assumption that is incorrect on your part. The business is not based at the town dock.

I am simply asking people not to discriminate against me. I'm only asking for the dock post to be lowered.

My FAA approved operating certificate allows me to pick up and drop off anywhere that it is legal. There are no stipulations attached. Someone could reserve a flight from anywhere in the area and I would be able to pick them up and drop them off as long as I had access. I am simply asking for equal access to the town pier.

I hope that message is loud and clear.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Sorry your message is loud.... but not clear. Let's get the true facts. You came to the Tuftonboro Selectman with the Pier 19 store owner to basically asking help to start a business. I saw your live youtube presentation to the Selectmen. I heard your case. I heard the store owner pleading that this has to be done now. Like it was an entitlement to her. It appeared you are basically in a partnership with the store owner. Your timing couldn't have been worst. The store has unfortunately caused other recent controversy.

It you are so determined to start your business up with the store you should help the store get permits to build multiple docks along with her gas dock. Would you not need Aviation fuel? So have the Pier 19 store ask for permits to include fuel for seaplanes plus docks for her customers and yours. I then would consider your support for helping the store succeed.

[Descant]

I'm embarrassed to think that a small NH town where a local guy grew up and went to HS, followed by extensive professional training, doesn't get local support. All he wants is to use one side of a dock that is little used because it's too shallow for many boats. If he were a dentist (nobody likes dentists) wouldn't you all support a local kid so you don't have to drive to Wolfeboro? Maybe all the whiners really aren't locals after all?
This really has nothing to do with where he will get his gas or how long he will be at the dock. That was all resolved at Mirror lake a long time ago. This is a local guy who wants to do business in a town where he grew up and all you locals should be helping him just the way you did when you paid for his public education. This is Tuftonborough. If your local kid wanted to start a local business, wouldn't you all want to hep the kid who played with your kids? In today's colloquialism "C'mon, man."

[DEJ]

Descant, no one is preventing him from running his business, he can run it from his dock on mirror lake on his state approved water runway on mirror lake. We object to him using a town of tuftonboro property to base the business from. The wharf is town property and belongs to all residents, not just him.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

I am in the process of having “No seaplanes at Union Wharf!” bumper stickers printed up. I will advise when they are available. We need to stop the for profit use of a town owned asset right now! Build your own damn dock!So you can put it next to your " coexist" sticker.

I get it, you don't want Seaplanes there, but other commercial operations are completely fine.

Logical.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Descant, no one is preventing him from running his business, he can run it from his dock on mirror lake on his state approved water runway on mirror lake. We object to him using a town of tuftonboro property to base the business from. The wharf is town property and belongs to all residents, not just him.You can keep saying it but it doesn't make it true...

I've already stated that the business is not based there and that I can pick up and drop off anywhere that it's legal. We just want equal access to the dock.

I think my position is very clear from what I have stated. Again there is a lot of emotion on this website and I appreciate that. The problem with the emotional argument is that there are too many examples of others using the pier for the exact reasons that you state is seaplane cannot come to the pier for. Again I state that AC plane can come to the pier. This is about lowering the dock post on the north side of the wharf.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

You can keep saying it but it doesn't make it true...

I've already stated that the business is not based there and that I can pick up and drop off anywhere that it's legal. We just want equal access to the dock.

I think my position is very clear from what I have stated. Again there is a lot of emotion on this website and I appreciate that. The problem with the emotional argument is that there are too many examples of others using the pier for the exact reasons that you state is seaplane cannot come to the pier for. Again I state that AC plane can come to the pier. This is about lowering the dock post on the north side of the wharf.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

We will just have to agree to disagree. Use of the wharf would require modification of a town property for the reason of conducting a private business from it. Run your business from your private dock on mirror lake.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

I think this venture has too much liability exposure to the town. All it takes is one clumsy, overweight, near sighted, inebriated etc... passenger to take a tumble off the plane/dock/float and get seriously injured for the town to be pulled into a lawsuit. I spent my life in aviation and a lot of time working around floatplanes. It can be hazardous..I don’t care how much training or experience an operator has. Sometimes they can’t control the unknown factor called “passenger”Sorry please tell me how this is any different than people coming up to the dock with a boat?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Sums it up perfectly...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIMBY#:~:text=NIMBY%2C%20an%20acronym%20for%20the, for%20strict%20land%20use%20regulations.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

Sums it up perfectly...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIMBY#:~:text=NIMBY%2C%20an%20acronym%20for%20the, for%20strict%20land%20use%20regulations.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

You just keep digging yourself into a deeper hole. You came here for open discussion and now you are insulting us. I have no problem with your business just oppose you running it from a town owned resource. Run it from your own dock. When is the public hearing on this? I have asked you several times, do you know?

[TheTimeTraveler]

Does anyone here remember the Sea Plane that operated out of Paugus Bay back in the 1990's...?

I don't think they could make it work financially because the cost of the rides were such, and the business just ceased.

I am not sure what a half hour ride would cost today. Would Epic Seaplane like to comment on what he plans on charging each passenger for the scenic lake tour?


.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

You just keep digging yourself into a deeper hole. You came here for open discussion and now you are insulting us. I have no problem with your business just oppose you running it from a town owned resource. Run it from your own dock. When is the public hearing on this? I have asked you several times, do you know?Fair enough. Do you oppose commercial barges being able to access the pier?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

Fair enough. Do you oppose commercial barges being able to access the pier?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

I have stated my opinion on that question several times. When is the public hearing on your proposed modification of town property so your private business can use town property to operate from?

[knowit]

So you can put it next to your " coexist" sticker.

I get it, you don't want Seaplanes there, but other commercial operations are completely fine.

Logical.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Your condescending attitude is not helping your cause very much.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Sums it up perfectly...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIMBY#:~:text=NIMBY%2C%20an%20acronym%20for%20the, for%20strict%20land%20use%20regulations.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

That pretty much sums it up. The problem is that the social media factor can overpower reality and facts. If I had a dock in 19 Mile Bay, I’d offer it to you for a base. God help anyone that has the motivation, spirit and energy to start a new business around here that the Nimby’s don’t like (just ask the owners of the Dive). Give it hell, best of luck, and most of all: https://johncousins-68418.medium.com/illegitimi-non-carborundum-7215236ad589

[CowTimes]

First off I am completely open to civil discussion and answering questions.

...

Epic Seaplane Adventures

I have gone back through this thread, and gathered what appear to be all of the legitimate questions that have been unanswered (I omitted what appeared to be rhetorical questions). Apologies to any forum members that posed questions I may have missed. It would be helpful to have direct, responsive answers to each of these questions:

(1) How long would your tour plane be at the dock, assuming back-to-back reservations? You have said the potential plan is to operate from 10am-7pm, with one flight per hour, and a half hour air time per flight. If that’s the case, are you not planning to be at the dock for approximately a half hour per flight (or close to a half hour) for safety briefings, loading, unloading, etc.? Please tell us how we got the math wrong here, and how much time you would be at the dock (assuming back-to-back reservations), and how you calculate to get to that amount of time.

(2) What do you plan to do to keep the space available? Specifically, what will happen if all the spots are filled when you come to land and there are no open docks for an hour? What happens to your next reservations?

(3) Would the reservations be sequential? If not, and there is a one or two hour gap between the end of one flight and the beginning of another flight, where would the seaplane go? Would it stay at the town dock?

(4) Where is the aircraft going to be kept when not being used in 19 mile bay?

(5) Where would your passenger customers park their vehicles while they are on your plane?

(6) Under your view of appropriate use of a town-owned wharf for commercial business, why shouldn’t a food truck be allowed to park on the wharf for half the day to sell to the public? Or permit a pontoon boat with an ice cream stand to tie up to the wharf? Is your position that commercial use of the dock is permissible by all and is on a daily first-come basis? (Your comparison to intermittent barge use has been extensively addressed above; a rehash of that isn’t helpful; it would be helpful to see where you draw the line on commercial use of town property)

(7) Have you thought of paying the town a per flight fee for use of dock space and guaranteeing a per day fee?

(8) Why don’t you run the sightseeing flights out of your base on Mirror Lake? You disparage town residents as having a “NIMBY” mindset. Are you not running this out of your base on Mirror Lake because you don’t want to upset your own neighbors running 8 flights out and 8 flights in per day? Or are you not permitted to use your residence for commercial operations?

(9) When is the hearing scheduled for or has it not been scheduled yet?

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Your condescending attitude is not helping your cause very much.We just want to be all inclusive, not single out anyone, or any business, and promote the town.

We live this town, we love this lake, and we love you too. I would never try to block access to a public pier. Not for a barge, a boat, an airboat (with a big scary propeller), not anyone...

I'm working with the town to have the dock posts lowered to allow for safer access to the dock for everyone. I'm sure the barge owners would love the posts lowered too. Loading and unloading equipment is very difficult with the dock posts so high.

This is a win for everyone and the town.

Even if the town decided that a commercial operator cannot access the pier we then shift directly to the access for a private owner so the issue doesn't go away at all.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

Epic, for the sake of conversation what if the town says no to your proposed modification of the wharf posts so you can operate your scenic flights from town property?

[Seaplane Pilot]

I have gone back through this thread, and gathered what appear to be all of the legitimate questions that have been unanswered (I omitted what appeared to be rhetorical questions). Apologies to any forum members that posed questions I may have missed. It would be helpful to have direct, responsive answers to each of these questions:

(1) How long would your tour plane be at the dock, assuming back-to-back reservations? You have said the potential plan is to operate from 10am-7pm, with one flight per hour, and a half hour air time per flight. If that’s the case, are you not planning to be at the dock for approximately a half hour per flight (or close to a half hour) for safety briefings, loading, unloading, etc.? Please tell us how we got the math wrong here, and how much time you would be at the dock (assuming back-to-back reservations), and how you calculate to get to that amount of time.

(2) What do you plan to do to keep the space available? Specifically, what will happen if all the spots are filled when you come to land and there are no open docks for an hour? What happens to your next reservations?

(3) Would the reservations be sequential? If not, and there is a one or two hour gap between the end of one flight and the beginning of another flight, where would the seaplane go? Would it stay at the town dock?

(4) Where is the aircraft going to be kept when not being used in 19 mile bay?

(5) Where would your passenger customers park their vehicles while they are on your plane?

(6) Under your view of appropriate use of a town-owned wharf for commercial business, why shouldn’t a food truck be allowed to park on the wharf for half the day to sell to the public? Or permit a pontoon boat with an ice cream stand to tie up to the wharf? Is your position that commercial use of the dock is permissible by all and is on a daily first-come basis? (Your comparison to intermittent barge use has been extensively addressed above; a rehash of that isn’t helpful; it would be helpful to see where you draw the line on commercial use of town property)

(7) Have you thought of paying the town a per flight fee for use of dock space and guaranteeing a per day fee?

(8) Why don’t you run the sightseeing flights out of your base on Mirror Lake? You disparage town residents as having a “NIMBY” mindset. Are you not running this out of your base on Mirror Lake because you don’t want to upset your own neighbors running 8 flights out and 8 flights in per day? Or are you not permitted to use your residence for commercial operations?

(9) When is the hearing scheduled for or has it not been scheduled yet?

Epic, if I were a cop, here’s the advice I’d give you: “You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of public opinion, and at the Town’s hearings.” Apparently some of these people have way too much time on their hands, and seem to be playing “Town Official”. If it were me, I’d play submarine captain, call the diving officer and go silent and deep. Again, good luck.

[CowTimes]

Epic, if I were a cop, here’s the advice I’d give you: “You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of public opinion, and at the Town’s hearings.” Apparently some of these people have way too much time on their hands, and seem to be playing “Town Official”. If it were me, I’d play submarine captain, call the diving officer and go silent and deep. Again, good luck.

That is good advice if one does not want to engage with the public and be transparent.

[Sundancer320]

All good questions from CowTimes. I hope he answers these without throwing insults at us “rubes” who are just too emotional to see the brilliance of their plan.

The most important question is why not use Mirror Lake as the base? It’s a 30 second plane flight over Winnipesaukee and has considerable less boat traffic.

I think we all know the answer to that: the store owner wants traffic in her store and knows she won’t be able to use her own dock for it.

[Seaplane Pilot]

That is good advice if one does not want to engage with the public and be transparent.

Engaging with the public is fine with the appropriate, moderated Town hearings, not on these social media forums.

[CowTimes]

Engaging with the public is fine with the appropriate, moderated Town hearings, not on these social media forums.

Respectfully, Seaplane, if you watch the video of the last Selectmen’s meeting, you will see that the proponents are trying to push this through without a public town hearing. And the proponents affirmatively came on this forum to plead their case and are appropriately being pressed for answers to some very logical and basic questions.

[rander7823]

Skydive Laconia to some extent

[knowit]

Available soon

[The Real BigGuy]

Do you own a barge? You hire the barge to do a service correct? There is no difference.
Period. You are masking your discrimination by using your "entitlement" that you are an Island resident.

You don't like airplanes we get it.

Thanks [emoji106]

Epic Seaplane Adventures



“You don’t like airplanes we get it.”

I think you should spend a little time retreading and editing before you post. My Dad had a 172 and some of the best times with him I remember were flights to remote airports for lunch, scenic flights in the fall to NH, ME, VT airports, flying to visit relatives in the Midwest, etc. I love airplanes.

The issue here has nothing to do with airplanes. It is your request to the town to make an accommodation for you so you can run your business from town property. I have yet to hear of any barge owner asking the town to cut down the tie posts so they could run their business from the dock.

I watched the selectmen’s meeting and was appalled when the store owner commented that someone could cut the tie posts in the middle of the night. Wow, that tells me all I need to know about your partner.

I wish you luck but, your prospects appear slimmer than Sisyphus pushing his rock up the mountain.


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[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

“You don’t like airplanes we get it.”

I think you should spend a little time retreading and editing before you post. My Dad had a 172 and some of the best times with him I remember were flights to remote airports for lunch, scenic flights in the fall to NH, ME, VT airports, flying to visit relatives in the Midwest, etc. I love airplanes.

The issue here has nothing to do with airplanes. It is your request to the town to make an accommodation for you so you can run your business from town property. I have yet to hear of any barge owner asking the town to cut down the tie posts so they could run their business from the dock.

I watched the selectmen’s meeting and was appalled when the store owner commented that someone could cut the tie posts in the middle of the night. Wow, that tells me all I need to know about your partner.

I wish you luck but, your prospects appear slimmer than Sisyphus pushing his rock up the mountain.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)Just so I'm clear, you're completely okay with private seaplanes coming to the wharf and cutting down the post for that?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[P-3 Guy]

Just so I'm clear, you're completely okay with private seaplanes coming to the wharf and cutting down the post for that?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Facts, please. How high off the wharf do the posts currently extend? How high off the wharf do you want/need the posts to be? Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts? Specifically, what is the reason that you want/need to shorten posts?

P.S. I like airplanes. See my avatar.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Facts, please. How high off the wharf do the posts currently extend? How high off the wharf do you want/need the posts to be? Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts? Specifically, what is the reason that you want/need to shorten posts?

P.S. I like airplanes. See my avatar.The posts are 4-5 feet high above the top of the dock. They are not supporting anything above the deck height. As low as possible down to deck height would be great, obviously leaving enough for boaters to tie to. However, that side of the pier doesn't get used by boats because it is too shallow and perfect for seaplanes.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[P-3 Guy]

The posts are 4-5 feet high above the top of the dock. They are not supporting anything above the deck height. As low as possible down to deck height would be great, obviously leaving enough for boaters to tie to. However, that side of the pier doesn't get used by boats because it is too shallow and perfect for seaplanes.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

"As low as possible down to deck height... leaving enough for boaters to tie to." What is the maximum post height that would be acceptable to you?

Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts?

Specifically, what is the reason that you want/need to shorten posts?

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

"As low as possible down to deck height... leaving enough for boaters to tie to." What is the maximum post height that would be acceptable to you?

Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts?

Specifically, what is the reason that you want/need to shorten posts?For tail clearance. It's not just for me. That's what I'm trying to convey.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

The posts are 4-5 feet high above the top of the dock. They are not supporting anything above the deck height. As low as possible down to deck height would be great, obviously leaving enough for boaters to tie to. However, that side of the pier doesn't get used by boats because it is too shallow and perfect for seaplanes.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Barges pretty much use the shallow side of the wharf as the fireboat and fish and game boat block barges from using the deeper side that most boaters use. This time of year the shallower side is fine for most all boats as water level is at full pool right now. Different story later into the summer/fall. The barges do require that the posts be higher, surely if they were cut down to deck height they could not tie up.

[P-3 Guy]

For tail clearance. It's not just for me. That's what I'm trying to convey.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

If it's not just for you, who else wants to have the wharf posts shortened? How far will the tail project over the wharf when the aircraft is alongside? When the aircraft is secured to the wharf, what will the aircraft's orientation be? It sounds like the aft ends of the floats will be facing the wharf, is this correct?

"As low as possible down to deck height... leaving enough for boaters to tie to." What is the maximum post height that would be acceptable to you?

Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts?

[knowit]

If you want shorter posts, maybe you should try not quoting people and then adding your snobby, entitled, and condescending comments. Man your posts are hard to follow Epic.

[CowTimes]

For tail clearance. It's not just for me. That's what I'm trying to convey.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Please stop with the platitudes about potential private use for pilots coming in to get an ice cream at the store. If you weren’t trying to run a tour/charter business from this town dock, you wouldn’t have formed an LLC and gone through all the time and hassle to get an approved runway. The private use is just a fig leaf to waive around to suggest there are non-commercial use that would benefit. I just don’t buy it, and I still doubt that many private planes are going to fly in just to grab an ice cream when they can’t get aviation fuel.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

I have gone back through this thread, and gathered what appear to be all of the legitimate questions that have been unanswered (I omitted what appeared to be rhetorical questions). Apologies to any forum members that posed questions I may have missed. It would be helpful to have direct, responsive answers to each of these questions:

(1) How long would your tour plane be at the dock, assuming back-to-back reservations? You have said the potential plan is to operate from 10am-7pm, with one flight per hour, and a half hour air time per flight. If that’s the case, are you not planning to be at the dock for approximately a half hour per flight (or close to a half hour) for safety briefings, loading, unloading, etc.? Please tell us how we got the math wrong here, and how much time you would be at the dock (assuming back-to-back reservations), and how you calculate to get to that amount of time.

(2) What do you plan to do to keep the space available? Specifically, what will happen if all the spots are filled when you come to land and there are no open docks for an hour? What happens to your next reservations?

(3) Would the reservations be sequential? If not, and there is a one or two hour gap between the end of one flight and the beginning of another flight, where would the seaplane go? Would it stay at the town dock?

(4) Where is the aircraft going to be kept when not being used in 19 mile bay?

(5) Where would your passenger customers park their vehicles while they are on your plane?

(6) Under your view of appropriate use of a town-owned wharf for commercial business, why shouldn’t a food truck be allowed to park on the wharf for half the day to sell to the public? Or permit a pontoon boat with an ice cream stand to tie up to the wharf? Is your position that commercial use of the dock is permissible by all and is on a daily first-come basis? (Your comparison to intermittent barge use has been extensively addressed above; a rehash of that isn’t helpful; it would be helpful to see where you draw the line on commercial use of town property)

(7) Have you thought of paying the town a per flight fee for use of dock space and guaranteeing a per day fee?

(8) Why don’t you run the sightseeing flights out of your base on Mirror Lake? You disparage town residents as having a “NIMBY” mindset. Are you not running this out of your base on Mirror Lake because you don’t want to upset your own neighbors running 8 flights out and 8 flights in per day? Or are you not permitted to use your residence for commercial operations?

(9) When is the hearing scheduled for or has it not been scheduled yet?Do you need a job? I'll hire you for my logistics manager. I know you are curious about how people run their companies, but do you wonder what other commercial operators do when they aren't picking up and dropping off at the pier? That's not a sarcastic question. Do you treat them with the same respect?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[CowTimes]

Do you need a job? I'll hire you for my logistics manager. I know you are curious about how people run their companies, but do you wonder what other commercial operators do when they aren't picking up and dropping off at the pier? That's not a sarcastic question. Do you treat them with the same respect?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

These are entirely fair questions for a business that is seeking to use public property as its base of operations. Not a single business in this town or any other in the state is permitted to use public property in the manner you seek without a license, paying for it, having a contract with indemnification obligations to the municipality, and often providing a bond for the obligations since these types of operations are often undercapitalized (I’m not suggesting you are, but these are the issues diligence in public contracting involve).

And please, stop with the barge comparison. The barges use the wharf intermittently what, maybe an hour or two a week, as the public access for island residents, and have never to my knowledge displaced any other use of the dock. Nor are they based on the town dock. Your sole in-person interaction on land with your customers will be on the town dock. You are proposing to use the dock as a base for your business, as demonstrated by the math above that your plane would be there for 4-5 hours a day if fully booked, and even longer if not fully booked. Not all the barge companies combined, nor any member of the public, use the town wharf as extensively as you seek to. So, yes, when you are effectively asking the town to subsidize your business by providing you a business base for free, these are the types of questions you can expect.

And as for my employment status, I do fine for myself without asking the public to subsidize my business. Please stay on topic and be respectful, as I have tried to do here in posing legitimate questions and demonstrating the problems with your public positions and statements.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

These are entirely fair questions for a business that is seeking to use public property as its base of operations. Not a single business in this town or any other in the state is permitted to use public property in the manner you seek without a license, paying for it, having a contract with indemnification obligations to the municipality, and often providing a bond for the obligations since these types of operations are often undercapitalized (I’m not suggesting you are, but these are the issues diligence in public contracting involve).

And please, stop with the barge comparison. The barges use the wharf intermittently what, maybe an hour or two a week, as the public access for island residents, and have never to my knowledge displaced any other use of the dock. Nor are they based on the town dock. Your sole in-person interaction on land with your customers will be on the town dock. You are proposing to use the dock as a base for your business, as demonstrated by the math above that your plane would be there for 4-5 hours a day if fully booked, and even longer if not fully booked. Not all the barge companies combined, nor any member of the public, use the town wharf as extensively as you seek to. So, yes, when you are effectively asking the town to subsidize your business by providing you a business base for free, these are the types of questions you can expect.

And as for my employment status, I do fine for myself without asking the public to subsidize my business. Please stay on topic and be respectful, as I have tried to do here in posing legitimate questions and demonstrating the problems with your public positions and statements.So you do finally admit that there are people who use the dock for commercial purposes.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

Epic, when is the public hearing for your proposed modifications to town property so that you can run your business from town property?

[CowTimes]

So you do finally admit that there are people who use the dock for commercial purposes.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

So you do finally admit your business will be based on town property?

As noted about five times previously, yes, there are INCIDENTAL commercial uses (Ctrl-F for incidental) by barges, island realtors, and probably many others no one sees and that do not interfere. You ignore the fundamental difference between incidental commercial use of public property and basing ones entire business off public property.

Another example. Photographers often take clients to public parks (eg Wolfeboro by the docks) to take pictures. That doesn’t mean a photographer can set up his or her office, studio, framing and printing facility in the gazebo there. That’s the difference between incidental commercial use, and basing a business on public property. I don’t think you’re confused about the difference, you just want the town and its residents to ignore it.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

So you do finally admit your business will be based on town property?

As noted about five times previously, yes, there are INCIDENTAL commercial uses (Ctrl-F for incidental) by barges, island realtors, and probably many others no one sees and that do not interfere. You ignore the fundamental difference between incidental commercial use of public property and basing ones entire business off public property.

Another example. Photographers often take clients to public parks (eg Wolfeboro by the docks) to take pictures. That doesn’t mean a photographer can set up his or her office, studio, framing and printing facility in the gazebo there. That’s the difference between incidental commercial use, and basing a business on public property. I don’t think you’re confused about the difference, you just want the town and its residents to ignore it.Respectfully, Please site the law, regulation, or town ordinance that you are referring to please. I have done this...

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Epic, when is the public hearing for your proposed business that you want to run from town property?Hello, it's not set yet. The selectman have requested a step prior to this, in the process. Insert sarcasm, yes a process! One that is being followed!

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[P-3 Guy]

Mr. Wood:
When you joined this discussion yesterday, you said that you “would like to address everyone’s concerns… feel free to ask… we are open, honest and not afraid of any questions.” I applaud this attitude, and would like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but… you have not answered questions that I have directly and clearly asked, sometimes multiple times. The result is that I am beginning to wonder if you are being purposely evasive, perhaps because you are afraid that disclosing the true nature of your proposed business operations would paint a negative picture of commercial seaplane activity that relies on the publicly owned Union Wharf in Tuftonboro.
Please live up to the words in your first post and answer these questions:

“For tail clearance. It's not just for me. That's what I'm trying to convey.”
If it's not just for you, who else wants to have the wharf posts shortened?

How far will the tail project over the wharf when the aircraft is alongside?

When the aircraft is secured to the wharf, what will the aircraft's orientation be?

It sounds like the aft ends of the floats will be facing the wharf, is this correct?

"As low as possible down to deck height... leaving enough for boaters to tie to." What is the maximum post height that would be acceptable to you?

Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts?

[CowTimes]

Respectfully, Please site the law, regulation, or town ordinance that you are referring to please. I have done this...

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Respectfully, this is a pretty basic legal concept that you should have raised with a lawyer before you started all this. But since you asked, this is adopted in one form or another in virtually all states and municipalities. One example from the town of Tuftonboro that you really should have read before you started this “process”:

Tuftonboro Docking and Parking Ordinance (relevant excerpts):

C. UNION WHARF

THIS TOWN-OWNED WHARF AND BOAT LAUNCH FACILITY IS AVAILABLE FOR USE BY THE PUBLIC AS A TEMPORARY DOCKING AND BOAT LAUNCHING FACILITY. NO OVERNIGHT DOCKING IS ALLOWED...

CONSTRUCTION VEHICLES MAY USE UNION WHARF TO LOAD AND UNLOAD SUPPLIES AND MATERIAL FOR LAKESIDE CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE RESTRICTIONS SET FORTH HEREIN.

. . .

NO COMMERCIAL WATERCRAFT MAY USE OR DOCK AT A TOWN DOCK OR WHARF FOR MORE THAN ONE (1) HOUR . . . .


As you can see, the barges’ and other business incidental use of the wharf is expressly permitted by ordinance. As I noted previously, this should not be a surprise since barge use is necessary for town residents to inhabit the islands.

As you can also see, trying to use the dock as a base for your business for 4-5 hours per day is not permitted, and would require a change to the ordinance. So, this is not just an issue for a public hearing, this is a town meeting issue.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Respectfully, this is a pretty basic legal concept that you should have raised with a lawyer before you started all this. But since you asked, this is adopted in one form or another in virtually all states and municipalities. One example from the town of Tuftonboro that you really should have read before you started this “process”:

Tuftonboro Docking and Parking Ordinance (relevant excerpts):

C. UNION WHARF

THIS TOWN-OWNED WHARF AND BOAT LAUNCH FACILITY IS AVAILABLE FOR USE BY THE PUBLIC AS A TEMPORARY DOCKING AND BOAT LAUNCHING FACILITY. NO OVERNIGHT DOCKING IS ALLOWED...

CONSTRUCTION VEHICLES MAY USE UNION WHARF TO LOAD AND UNLOAD SUPPLIES AND MATERIAL FOR LAKESIDE CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE RESTRICTIONS SET FORTH HEREIN.

. . .

NO COMMERCIAL WATERCRAFT MAY USE OR DOCK AT A TOWN DOCK OR WHARF FOR MORE THAN ONE (1) HOUR . . . .


As you can see, the barges’ and other business incidental use of the wharf is expressly permitted by ordinance. As I noted previously, this should not be a surprise since barge use is necessary for town residents to inhabit the islands.

As you can also see, trying to use the dock as a base for your business for 4-5 hours per day is not permitted, and would require a change to the ordinance. So, this is not just an issue for a public hearing, this is a town meeting issue.Sounds good. Thanks.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[P-3 Guy]

NO COMMERCIAL WATERCRAFT MAY USE OR DOCK AT A TOWN DOCK OR WHARF FOR MORE THAN ONE (1) HOUR . . . .


As you can see, the barges’ and other business incidental use of the wharf is expressly permitted by ordinance. As I noted previously, this should not be a surprise since barge use is necessary for town residents to inhabit the islands.

As you can also see, trying to use the dock as a base for your business for 4-5 hours per day is not permitted, and would require a change to the ordinance. So, this is not just an issue for a public hearing, this is a town meeting issue.

In fairness to everyone, the rest of the sentence you quote form the Docking and Parking Ordinance says "...without written permission of the Town board of selectmen or its designee." So I don't think an ordinance change (or town meeting) would be required to allow a commercial watercraft to use the Union Wharf for more than one hour; written permission from the Board of Selectmen appears to be all that is needed.

[CowTimes]

In fairness to everyone, the rest of the sentence you quote form the Docking and Parking Ordinance says "...without written permission of the Town board of selectmen or its designee." So I don't think an ordinance change (or town meeting) would be required to allow a commercial watercraft to use the Union Wharf for more than one hour; written permission from the Board of Selectmen appears to be all that is needed.

Yes, and that is clearly an exception for intermittent use, such as a barge needing an extra half hour on a random day. The general prohibition is against commercial use except for an hour. I’m fairly certain the selectmen would not view their authority to extend to permit a commercial enterprise to be based on the town dock by virtue of their ability to let a commercial vessel dock intermittently beyond one hour. What is being proposed is far beyond the limited exception the ordinance provides.

[P-3 Guy]

Yes, and that is clearly an exception for intermittent use, such as a barge needing an extra half hour on a random day. The general prohibition is against commercial use except for an hour. I’m fairly certain the selectmen would not view their authority to extend to permit a commercial enterprise to be based on the town dock by virtue of their ability to let a commercial vessel dock intermittently beyond one hour. What is being proposed is far beyond the limited exception the ordinance provides.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I see nothing in the ordinance language to indicate that written permission from the select board for commercial docking beyond one hour can only be a limited exception. Now, individual select persons may be reluctant to provide written permission that's as sweeping as Mr. Wood desires, but I don't think that the ordinance as written restricts the board from doing so.

[CowTimes]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I see nothing in the ordinance language to indicate that written permission from the select board for commercial docking beyond one hour can only be a limited exception. Now, individual select persons may be reluctant to provide written permission that's as sweeping as Mr. Wood desires, but I don't think that the ordinance as written restricts the board from doing so.

We can agree to disagree on this one. Even under your interpretation, and based on their statements at prior meetings, I don’t see the board of selectmen permitting a commercial operation being based on the wharf without at least a public hearing.

The real point of raising the ordinance (the proponent asked for legal authority on intermittent use), though, is it prohibits commercial use like the one being proposed and expressly permits barges to use it for an hour.

So hopefully we can stop with the nonsense about comparisons to barges and “discrimination” against full-on commercial operations based on the wharf for 4-5 hours per day.

[swnoel]

Sums it up perfectly...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIMBY#:~:text=NIMBY%2C%20an%20acronym%20for%20the, for%20strict%20land%20use%20regulations.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

There's no reason you couldn't use that dock like everyone else does. Unfortunately ,there's not much civility left in this society... the bullies have decided they'll decide what's best for everyone whether you like it or not! I'm surprised you haven't been called a racists yet... course they've already told you you're not being discriminated against.

[DEJ]

There's no reason you couldn't use that dock like everyone else does. Unfortunately ,there's not much civility left in this society... the bullies have decided they'll decide what's best for everyone whether you like it or not! I'm surprised you haven't been called a racists yet... course they've already told you you're not being discriminated against.

He cannot use the wharf like everyone else simply because the posts are to high for him to park his plane there. If the posts were modified to accommodate his business it could have a negative affect on someone else who choses to use the wharf.

[chasedawg]

Someone landed a seaplane in the new and approved Pier 19 runway. Then I saw Tom Wood having a discussion on the town wharf. Pictures were being taken where acting as a boat will probably tie up. Wow did that plane make noise far worst than any motor cycle or off shore 1000 HP race boat. Many neighbors were complaining after. The sound echoes in that tight enclosed area.

I would not be surprised to see him tie up at the wharf after all just to check it out. That's fine he is a boat. But there is no way he can reduce prop wash or sound. It will be an interesting summer.

[knowit]

Loud as hell and I live a mile away from there!

[knowit]

Looks like we will need to organize our flotilla of boats to anchor in the runway on the weekends. As boats, we have the right of way.

[knowit]

Here is the email of the Tuftonboro town selectmen. Please take a moment to send them a message on this subject. This needs to be stopped now!


selectmen@tuftonboro.org

[Sundancer320]

I watched the seaplane make it’s run today and went for a closer look. The plane will sit parallel to the dock 3/4 of the way down on the shallow side(right side as you look from shore) the wing crosses just past halfway across the wharf blocking quick access to the fire boat. On its takeoff to the north he gets airborne directly across from the camps on Chase island just past the yellow boat house and then stays in ground effect (water effect to be precise) for about 200-300’ until it begins its climb reaching 300-500’ altitude past Chase. I see potential conflicts arising from this choke point as it is common for boats to speed around Chase heading for Pier 19 and it will be interesting to see how a floatplane in a critical phase of flight maneuvers away at low altitude to avoid an oncoming boat at 30 mph plus who won’t see the floatplane until it clears the corner.

[P-3 Guy]

I watched the seaplane make it’s run today and went for a closer look. The plane will sit parallel to the dock 3/4 of the way down on the shallow side(right side as you look from shore) the wing crosses just past halfway across the wharf blocking quick access to the fire boat.

How high off the wharf was the wing? This is one of the things I was asking questions about (yet to be answered). Unless the plane is secured to the wharf nose in, either a wing or the empennage will be over the wharf and obstructing traffic the whole time the plane is alongside. No boat or barge is going to present that same problem. As much as Mr. Wood may claim otherwise, the commercial use of the wharf by a seaplane is not "just like" the commercial use of the wharf by a barge. It's completely apples to oranges, and in evaluating the use of the public wharf by a commercial seaplane operation, different considerations are justified.

[Sundancer320]

How high off the wharf was the wing? This is one of the things I was asking questions about (yet to be answered). Unless the plane is secured to the wharf nose in, either a wing or the empennage will be over the wharf and obstructing traffic the whole time the plane is alongside. No boat or barge is going to present that same problem. As much as Mr. Wood may claim otherwise, the commercial use of the wharf by a seaplane is not "just like" the commercial use of the wharf by a barge. It's completely apples to oranges, and in evaluating the use of the public wharf by a commercial seaplane operation, different considerations are justified.


I took a few pics and will post them... think it’s about 6’ definitely have to duck a bit if you’re average height to taller..

[chasedawg]

I watched the seaplane make it’s run today and went for a closer look. The plane will sit parallel to the dock 3/4 of the way down on the shallow side(right side as you look from shore) the wing crosses just past halfway across the wharf blocking quick access to the fire boat. On its takeoff to the north he gets airborne directly across from the camps on Chase island just past the yellow boat house and then stays in ground effect (water effect to be precise) for about 200-300’ until it begins its climb reaching 300-500’ altitude past Chase. I see potential conflicts arising from this choke point as it is common for boats to speed around Chase heading for Pier 19 and it will be interesting to see how a floatplane in a critical phase of flight maneuvers away at low altitude to avoid an oncoming boat at 30 mph plus who won’t see the floatplane until it clears the corner.


Not only that... there are many sunfish, Kayaks, paddle boards in that whole area. They could be not seen until it is too late. Camp Belknap takes many campers in about a dozen canoes around Farm Island and across 19 Mile Bay to the town beach and under the bridge. Plus the NHBM has asked the town to put a moorings in 19 mile Bay for the sailshare program. They will be mooring their sailboat there as well. It is going to be mighty crowded. I would bet that the FAA and The State approving this site for seaplanes have no clue what it's like and what it is going to be. This is a disaster waiting to happen. This site should have never been approved. And guess who the pilots call to get landing clearance.... the store owner. She can not see from the store what condition the bay is in to land a plane. Who thought up this crazy and dangerous plan?

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Hey guys! What a great safe day. 75 decibels were recorded from the 230 hp engine from the dock. Very wide and safe. Great proving run. 16997169981699917000

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[Force5]

Today, Pier 19 Country Store posted on Facebook a photo of the seaplane with a caption under it saying: There’s been a rumor going around that our store is trying to set up a seaplane tour business, it is true! Then within 30 mins later she takes down the post and now says: How exciting it is to be able to have a seaplane drop in for a day. We welcome seaplanes here! I took a screen shot of the original posting.
All you naysayers please watch the video of the meeting with the town selectmen. As a previous abutter I can tell you she has no respect for her neighbors and has had issues with the DES for doing things she was not supposed to. Clearing natural vegetation in the wetland, increasing the size of the platform hanging over the lake and adding a too large propane tank in the wetlands. She was not supposed to increase the footage of her house and now has a permit to build a garage! There was discrepancy of two wetland delineations. Funny how the first delineation didn’t get her what she wanted and then had another one done. I don’t know how the state approved her garage. You can go to the DES query and see for yourself. Just put in her name and read the permits. If the condo association is having a war with her, I feel their pain. Can you trust her? NO!

[DEJ]

Good to see the wharf being used as it intended, island resident getting deliveries of stuff.

[CowTimes]

Good to see the wharf being used as it intended, island resident getting deliveries of stuff.

The pictures of the barges aren’t even from today. Notice the different skies.

Also, this was at 9am or so on a Saturday before Memorial Day. Imagine the difference between today and the Saturday of July 4th weekend, or virtually any other weekend in peak season.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

The pictures of the barges aren’t even from today. Notice the different skies. More deception.Deception? So you are saying that those barges aren't real, and they weren't at the Pier? What does it matter today or this week? They were there these photos are real. Keep the conversation going. Thanks.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

Since it appears you can dock your plane there when will you start advertising your scenic plane rides and what will the cost be?

[CowTimes]

Deception? So you are saying that those barges aren't real, and they weren't at the Pier? What does it matter today or this week? They were there these photos are real. Keep the conversation going. Thanks.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Nope, the barges are real and they are a necessary aspect of island living so that hundreds of Tuftonboro island residents can inhabit the islands and, in turn, provide significant tax revenue to the town. But they use the wharf what, an hour or two per week? In any event, their use of the wharf is expressly permitted by town ordinance.

Do you know what’s not real? Any right to use town property as a base for your tour/charter business.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Nope, the barges are real and they are a necessary aspect of island living so that hundreds of Tuftonboro island residents can inhabit the islands and, in turn, provide significant tax revenue to the town. But they use the wharf what, an hour or two per week? In any event, their use of the wharf is expressly permitted by town ordinance.

Do you know what’s not real? Any right to use town property as a base for your tour/charter business.You are making my argument for me. I need to hire you. Thank you.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

Do you know what’s not real? Any right to use town property as a base for your tour/charter business.

Pretty much sums it up.

[chasedawg]

Hey guys! What a great safe day. 75 decibels were recorded from the 230 hp engine from the dock. Very wide and safe. Great proving run. 16997169981699917000

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Epic....! You should have not post this picture of your plane. Your plane wing goes 2/3 of the way across the wharf. No one who would want to unload or load their boat for island provisions would not be able to so. When the Tuftonboro Fire Chief sees these pictures he will express his concern with the town Selectmen like most town citizens are now doing.

And this is full pool high water level. When the water level drops Summer and into the Fall your plane wing would totally block access to the docks. You need to get smarter on hold you present your case. Go find another place to dock your plane. You are so tight with the store owners you should be putting your plane there or help them get permits to a new dock. But from I read the store owners will do whatever they please and fell entitled by not even obeying DES regulations. I feel concerned for you picking the wrong pony to ride.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Epic....! You should have not post this picture of your plane. Your plane wing goes 2/3 of the way across the wharf. No one who would want to unload or load their boat for island provisions would not be able to so. When the Tuftonboro Fire Chief sees these pictures he will express his concern with the town Selectmen like most town citizens are now doing.

And this is full pool high water level. When the water level drops Summer and into the Fall your plane wing would totally block access to the docks. You need to get smarter on hold you present your case. Go find another place to dock your plane. You are so tight with the store owners you should be putting your plane there or help them get permits to a new dock. But from I read the store owners will do whatever they please and fell entitled by not even obeying DES regulations. I feel concerned for you picking the wrong pony to ride.Is this the first time you have ever experienced something like this? You're comments seem like we are inventing something new. Anyone with any common sense and reason can see this isn't an issue.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

You just keep digging your hole deeper, thank you.

[Sundancer320]

I was open to the idea of a seaplane tour operator but after watching the video and seeing Epic’s disdain for the people most affected by it, I have decided that he is an arrogant jerk that thinks he can dazzle his way thru. Fortunately this forum has actually worked against him due to his own crass attitude.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

I was open to the idea of a seaplane tour operator but after watching the video and seeing Epic’s disdain for the people most affected by it, I have decided that he is an arrogant jerk that thinks he can dazzle his way thru. Fortunately this forum has actually worked against him due to his own crass attitude.So this is a new reason. I've heard no blocking the dock for EMS, and no commercial operations, I've even heard "I just don't want a plane here.", but this reason is new. Now it's no planes because of distain for someone.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Good thing this forum has the pulse of the people and shows the actual level of public support out there. After one day... 17004

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

Good thing this forum has the pulse of the people and shows the actual level of public support out there. After one day... 17004

Epic Seaplane Adventures

How many of these people are Tuftonboro residents who have the final say what happens with their wharf?

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

I was open to the idea of a seaplane tour operator but after watching the video and seeing Epic’s disdain for the people most affected by it, I have decided that he is an arrogant jerk that thinks he can dazzle his way thru. Fortunately this forum has actually worked against him due to his own crass attitude.I do not have distain for anyone. The people on here are hiding behind a screen name. We do not know who they are or where they live. Most I would venture are not from here, didn't grow up here, and know most of the people in this community. Most I would venture are seasonal people who speak of things like entitlement, but have large boats, and second homes and feel entitled to the dock. Most of the voices are from Islanders who feel like the town dock is theirs and the rules for blocking access to the fire boat don't apply to them and that they can hire people to bring things to them out on the islands and or do some sort of work for hire. Then they turn around and say that shouldn't apply to anyone except people from the islands. Public Dock to them means Islanders first and everyone else is second class citizens. This is entitlement, and distain, but it is not from me. They know they can't say, "I don't want a plane here.". So they come up with every reason they think to attempt to block it.

BTW- Sundancer 320. That's a nice boat! Have a wonderful day.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[The Real BigGuy]

Just so I'm clear, you're completely okay with private seaplanes coming to the wharf and cutting down the post for that?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

No, I just happen to like airplanes. I’ve made my position pretty clear about your request for an accommodation (cutting down tie posts) and ceding part of the dock to you to run your sightseeing business. If you want to run your business you should build the costs associated w/infrastructure (docks) into your business plan.


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[Just Wonderin]

You can keep saying it but it doesn't make it true...

I've already stated that the business is not based there and that I can pick up and drop off anywhere that it's legal. We just want equal access to the dock.

I think my position is very clear from what I have stated. Again there is a lot of emotion on this website and I appreciate that. The problem with the emotional argument is that there are too many examples of others using the pier for the exact reasons that you state is seaplane cannot come to the pier for. Again I state that AC plane can come to the pier. This is about lowering the dock post on the north side of the wharf.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Okay, I've been following this thread since the very first post. Epic keeps reiterating that he just wants to be treated fairly and have equal access to town property AND this entire discussion is ONLY about lowering the dock posts on the side of Union Wharf (because he doesn't need anyone's permission or support to land his plane or operate a business on 19 Mile Bay) Then maybe he can answer these few questions for me.

1) How many barge services or any other local business (other than Epic and his business partner, Pier 19 Country Store) have asked to have the wharf modified for their own personal use?

2) How many islanders have asked to have town property modified so they can experience a financial gain from their island-based business? (Because Epic has already made it very clear that his business is not based at Union Wharf)

3) How many boaters have docked, multiple times per day, at publicly owned property every single Saturday and Sunday (weather permitting)?

[Just Wonderin]

The posts are 4-5 feet high above the top of the dock. They are not supporting anything above the deck height. As low as possible down to deck height would be great, obviously leaving enough for boaters to tie to. However, that side of the pier doesn't get used by boats because it is too shallow and perfect for seaplanes.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

If the posts on Union Wharf were lowered to deck height (I know you said "leaving enough for boaters to tie to") what would you suggest boats tie to? Or would adding cleats be another modification the town would need to make for the wharf? Or are you suggesting that only the posts that impede your access be modified to fit your need?

Just as an FYI the height of the posts actually do serve a purpose. The current height of the posts is about 3 feet. Many boaters use that height as an assist when entering and exiting their boat.

[CowTimes]

I do not have distain for anyone. The people on here are hiding behind a screen name. We do not know who they are or where they live. Most I would venture are not from here, didn't grow up here, and know most of the people in this community. Most I would venture are seasonal people who speak of things like entitlement, but have large boats, and second homes and feel entitled to the dock. Most of the voices are from Islanders who feel like the town dock is theirs and the rules for blocking access to the fire boat don't apply to them and that they can hire people to bring things to them out on the islands and or do some sort of work for hire. Then they turn around and say that shouldn't apply to anyone except people from the islands. Public Dock to them means Islanders first and everyone else is second class citizens. This is entitlement, and distain, but it is not from me. They know they can't say, "I don't want a plane here.". So they come up with every reason they think to attempt to block it.

BTW- Sundancer 320. That's a nice boat! Have a wonderful day.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

“I do not have disdain for anyone” and then an entire post expressing disdain against island and other residents based on false assumptions. The people most affected here are island residents, many of whom have been here for generations, in addition to the mainland residents of 19 Mile Bay.

No island resident or island service company uses the Union Wharf in the way you seek. You want to base your entire commercial enterprise off public property. There is not a single example of a commercial enterprise being allowed to base its operations off town property (the Union Wharf or any other town property) in the way you seek without having obtained a permit/license (i.e., paying for it), a public bid process, and providing indemnification to the town for potential liabilities.

Town ordinance expressly permits the barges to use the wharf for up to an hour, and expressly prohibits using the wharf as you seek for more than intermittent commercial operation. This is not new, and has been the case for decades. You are the one that is seeking to entirely change what constitutes permitted use of town property. You are not entitled to this, period.

[The Real BigGuy]

Epic, you posted 75 db “at the dock”. Did you attempt to get db readings from docks on Chase or Farm Islands or down the mainland side and south end of the bay during takeoff? People don’t live on the dock.

Also, Cow Times posted a list of 9 questions. Instead of answering the questions in a “open discussion” manner, as you have stated you want, you respond to him with a snarky comment. You call people who worked their butts off to acquire a second home on islands and boats “entitled.” Not a way to make friends/supporters & generally bad Business! (Seems I’ve read similar comments about the store owner in this thread.)


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[Just Wonderin]

Someone landed a seaplane in the new and approved Pier 19 runway. Then I saw Tom Wood having a discussion on the town wharf. Pictures were being taken where acting as a boat will probably tie up. Wow did that plane make noise far worst than any motor cycle or off shore 1000 HP race boat. Many neighbors were complaining after. The sound echoes in that tight enclosed area.

I would not be surprised to see him tie up at the wharf after all just to check it out. That's fine he is a boat. But there is no way he can reduce prop wash or sound. It will be an interesting summer.

I'm so glad to see that in the spirit of true transparency, the flight into Pier 19 was announced, in advance, so all the naysayers could have come to Nineteen Mile Bay to see exactly what Epic has been trying to explain to all of us. Oh wait, it wasn't!

[TomF]

So with commercial operations aside everyone here is fine with modifying the docks for personal seaplane use right? As long as the public docks aren’t being used for hire is what I’m gathering.

I live in Alton bay. There is an faa approved runway. There is zero facility’s for seaplanes. If I want to stop and give my mother a ride I can’t. Drop in for ice cream or dinner, nope. Furthermore, if you think there is going to be hundreds of operations a day you’re wrong. Most pilots show discretion and won’t land if it’s busy and crowded with boats. This area was built off seaplanes. Most people think it’s pretty neat to see them. But I get it, you don’t want it in your back yard. I don’t hear you complaining about the loud boats blasting there radios, tearing up and down the lake at all hours of the day. Or the wake boats mindlessly cruising around too.

http://weirsbeach.com/reasons-to-visit/location/travel-by-plane/the-weirs-seaplane-base/


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[CowTimes]

So with commercial operations aside everyone here is fine with modifying the docks for personal seaplane use right? As long as the public docks aren’t being used for hire is what I’m gathering.

I live in Alton bay. There is an faa approved runway. There is zero facility’s for seaplanes. If I want to stop and give my mother a ride I can’t. Drop in for ice cream or dinner, nope. Furthermore, if you think there is going to be hundreds of operations a day you’re wrong. Most pilots show discretion and won’t land if it’s busy and crowded with boats. This area was built off seaplanes. Most people think it’s pretty neat to see them. But I get it, you don’t want it in your back yard. I don’t hear you complaining about the loud boats blasting there radios, tearing up and down the lake at all hours of the day. Or the wake boats mindlessly cruising around too.

http://weirsbeach.com/reasons-to-visit/location/travel-by-plane/the-weirs-seaplane-base/


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If there wasn’t a commercial tour operation, the likelihood of seaplanes in 19 Mile Bay is likely very intermittent, at best. The only reason for a private seaplane to land there is the store, but without aviation fuel, I think it is doubtful there would be much seaplane use.

The real use here and at least my objection is driven by the commercial nature of the operation. The safety profile is very different between intermittent private use and continuous commercial use. The plan is to run tours during peak boating times. I agree that private pilots show discretion not only in not landing if busy, but also in avoiding busy boating times altogether. The incentives are very different for a commercial operation that has paying customers waiting on the pier and whose business has peak operations at the same time as peak boating use. And that is all before addressing using town property for commercial operations.

[TomF]

So intermittent private use for modifying the docks is ok? You’d be surprised how much a seaplane base would attract private users. It’s just like boating, snowmobiling and motorcycling, they are looking for a destination. We enjoy supporting the local shops and businesses. Seaplanes have become less common and because of that the docks are not accommodating. I have had a quite a few people ask me where the seaplane docks are in Alton. They are shocked when I tell them there is none. But it’s a seaplane base, how are there no docks? Most seaplanes around here are amphibious, meaning they have wheels and can land on and most importantly fuel on land.


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[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Epic, you posted 75 db “at the dock”. Did you attempt to get db readings from docks on Chase or Farm Islands or down the mainland side and south end of the bay during takeoff? People don’t live on the dock.

Also, Cow Times posted a list of 9 questions. Instead of answering the questions in a “open discussion” manner, as you have stated you want, you respond to him with a snarky comment. You call people who worked their butts off to acquire a second home on islands and boats “entitled.” Not a way to make friends/supporters & generally bad Business! (Seems I’ve read similar comments about the store owner in this thread.)


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)None of this is true. The more the nay say'ers keep talking the more they expose their true feelings. I appreciate the forum and discussion.

So a private individual must announce publicly that they are coming? Interesting argument.

More and more we are sounding like we don't live in the "Live Free or Die State" and sounding like the Commonwealth.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[CowTimes]

So intermittent private use for modifying the docks is ok? You’d be surprised how much a seaplane base would attract private users. It’s just like boating, snowmobiling and motorcycling, they are looking for a destination. We enjoy supporting the local shops and businesses. Seaplanes have become less common and because of that the docks are not accommodating. I have had a quite a few people ask me where the seaplane docks are in Alton. They are shocked when I tell them there is none. But it’s a seaplane base, how are there no docks? Most seaplanes around here are amphibious, meaning they have wheels and can land on and most importantly fuel on land.


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I’m not sure why the town would need to modify the wharf. The plane this weekend was able to tie up just fine. And if I correctly understood the presentation at the board of selectmen’s meeting, seaplanes have always been entitled to land wherever they want (with or without the FAA runway certification) so long as proper distance has been maintained.

Now, the board of selectmen raised their own safety concerns on the use of the wharf for seaplanes in general, and the town of course can regulate the use of the town wharf. I see private use of the wharf as something that should also involve public discussion and debate, but the conversation is very different if there is no commercial operation involved.

[DEJ]

None of this is true. The more the may Sayers keep talking the more they expose their true feelings. I appreciate the forum and discussion.

So a private individual must announce publicly that they are coming? Interesting argument.

More and more we are sounding like we don't live in the "Live Free or Die State" and sounding like the Commonwealth.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Keep digging your hole epic, thank you.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

I’m not sure why the town would need to modify the wharf. The plane this weekend was able to tie up just fine. And if I correctly understood the presentation at the board of selectmen’s meeting, seaplanes have always been entitled to land wherever they want (with or without the FAA runway certification) so long as proper distance has been maintained.

Now, the board of selectmen raised their own safety concerns on the use of the wharf for seaplanes in general, and the town of course can regulate the use of the town wharf. I see private use of the wharf as something that should also involve public discussion and debate, but the conversation is very different if there is no commercial operation involved.Now we are having a great discussion. Thank you.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[Sundancer320]

I do not have distain for anyone. The people on here are hiding behind a screen name. We do not know who they are or where they live. Most I would venture are not from here, didn't grow up here, and know most of the people in this community. Most I would venture are seasonal people who speak of things like entitlement, but have large boats, and second homes and feel entitled to the dock. Most of the voices are from Islanders who feel like the town dock is theirs and the rules for blocking access to the fire boat don't apply to them and that they can hire people to bring things to them out on the islands and or do some sort of work for hire. Then they turn around and say that shouldn't apply to anyone except people from the islands. Public Dock to them means Islanders first and everyone else is second class citizens. This is entitlement, and distain, but it is not from me. They know they can't say, "I don't want a plane here.". So they come up with every reason they think to attempt to block it.

BTW- Sundancer 320. That's a nice boat! Have a wonderful day.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

So much wrong in this comment.
Show me anyone’s comments in this thread where they indicated the dock was theirs?
Did anyone show pictures of their large boats? Did anyone say they have one?
You’re using my screen name as a snarky shot at me... that’s fine I can take a shot since you’re not able to without lashing out... by the way Sundancer 320 is a nice boat...sold it long ago..never bothered to change it... nice try though.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

So much wrong in this comment.
Show me anyone’s comments in this thread where they indicated the dock was theirs?
Did anyone show pictures of their large boats? Did anyone say they have one?
You’re using my screen name as a snarky shot at me... that’s fine I can take a shot since you’re not able to without lashing out... by the way Sundancer 320 is a nice boat...sold it long ago..never bothered to change it... nice try though.I wasn't attacking you at all. I like that boat.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[Sundancer320]

I wasn't attacking you at all. I like that boat.

Epic Seaplane Adventures


Ok, I will accept that... I agree, nice boat. Even nicer now that I sold it!

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Epic, you posted 75 db “at the dock”. Did you attempt to get db readings from docks on Chase or Farm Islands or down the mainland side and south end of the bay during takeoff? People don’t live on the dock.

Also, Cow Times posted a list of 9 questions. Instead of answering the questions in a “open discussion” manner, as you have stated you want, you respond to him with a snarky comment. You call people who worked their butts off to acquire a second home on islands and boats “entitled.” Not a way to make friends/supporters & generally bad Business! (Seems I’ve read similar comments about the store owner in this thread.)


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This thread is pretty much dead now, but I think that you are misreading my comments. I have a second home and a boat etc etc... I didn't say these people are acting entitled because of that at all. The entitlement comes from the nay say'ers who are acting like they are entitled to the priority of a public dock. I'm not saying things like, "I have a plane, and I should have priority over that side of the dock because I live out on the island" etc etc. They are saying however, "I have a house on the island, so it's ok for me to use the dock for commercial purposes." My comments are pointing out how they are acting entitled to the dock for their commercial use, but then try to prevent any other commercial use. I'll have you know that the barge owners are on my side on this. They all are saying that me picking up and dropping off someone at the dock should not be treated any differently than them picking up and dropping off things for the islanders.

It's a very small, vocal, minority, but they are fighting their own battle with logic when they make the argument.

My point was that they are being hypocritical when they accuse me of being "entitled".

[CowTimes]

It's a very small, vocal, minority, but they are fighting their own battle with logic when they make the argument.

Please stop making false and unsupported gratuitous assertions. Have you done a survey of support and opposition among 19 Mile Bay residents and Tuftonboro island residents? Without that, please don’t say the opposition is a “small” “minority.” I have spoken with dozens of island residents on this over the last several days, and not a single one is in support.

Posting a screenshot of a facebook page—presumably your personal page—with 92 “thumbs up” from presumably your seaplane pilot friends is not “the actual level of public support.”

And enough already with the barge comparison—that use has been determined by the town to be an entirely appropriate incidental commercial use of the wharf and is expressly permitted by town ordinance. If your entire argument to base a seaplane tour business on town property is the fact that island residents need to use it now and then with a barge to inhabit the islands, you are wasting your time. If that logic were to hold, there would be no reason why I could not bring my food truck and park it right where your plane was this weekend all summer. BTW, you still haven’t explained how that is any different, since your argument boils down to if there is even incidental commercial use, all commercial use is allowed.

I wish you would have let this thread die. There is about as much logic and planning here as the publicity stunt of proposing a volunteer seaplane medical air transport.

[The Real BigGuy]

Epic, you quoted me quoting your post. How is “none of this true.” Are you lying to us?


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[Billy Bob]

This looks like great fun, never been up in a seaplane.
When will tickets be available, July should be very busy

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Please stop making false and unsupported gratuitous assertions. Have you done a survey of support and opposition among 19 Mile Bay residents and Tuftonboro island residents? Without that, please don’t say the opposition is a “small” “minority.” I have spoken with dozens of island residents on this over the last several days, and not a single one is in support.

Posting a screenshot of a facebook page—presumably your personal page—with 92 “thumbs up” from presumably your seaplane pilot friends is not “the actual level of public support.”

And enough already with the barge comparison—that use has been determined by the town to be an entirely appropriate incidental commercial use of the wharf and is expressly permitted by town ordinance. If your entire argument to base a seaplane tour business on town property is the fact that island residents need to use it now and then with a barge to inhabit the islands, you are wasting your time. If that logic were to hold, there would be no reason why I could not bring my food truck and park it right where your plane was this weekend all summer. BTW, you still haven’t explained how that is any different, since your argument boils down to if there is even incidental commercial use, all commercial use is allowed.

I wish you would have let this thread die. There is about as much logic and planning here as the publicity stunt of proposing a volunteer seaplane medical air transport.Instead of a food truck analogy, how about comparing the air tour more like a pizza delivery. A person would say, "can I get a large pepperoni pizza delivered to the town dock? I'll meet you there to pick it up!". That's way different than saying, "I'm going to set up a pizza joint on the dock.".

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[CowTimes]

Instead of a food truck analogy, how about comparing the air tour more like a pizza delivery. A person would say, "can I get a large pepperoni pizza delivered to the town dock? I'll meet you there to pick it up!". That's way different than saying, "I'm going to set up a pizza joint on the dock.".

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Except you’d have to change it to say that you advertise your pizza as Union Wharf pizza and the only place you can get it is Union Wharf. And it’s not just delivery to and meeting at Union Wharf for a quick exchange—the pizza truck would need to occupy the wharf for 4-5 hours per day for a half hour between each order, and longer if a customer is late or no shows. That’s the commercial use difference. And then for the safety aspects, you’d have to have the pizza truck block access to the fire boat, and have the truck try to entirely avoid rush hour traffic at 80+ MPH en route to Union Wharf without being able to touch the brakes. And that’s before modifying the truck to have the loudest exhaust system you have heard for the enjoyment of the neighbors.

But if you use your original hypothetical of a typical intermittent pizza delivery, that would sound awfully a lot like the incidental use for a barge.

[knowit]

This thread may be dying but let me assure you us folks that want our selectmen to enforce our town ordinances in particular the one about no commercial use of the town pier are growing in numbers. We are mobilizing and acting. Can I send you a bumper sticker?

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Except you’d have to change it to say that you advertise your pizza as Union Wharf pizza and the only place you can get it is Union Wharf. And it’s not just delivery to and meeting at Union Wharf for a quick exchange—the pizza truck would need to occupy the wharf for 4-5 hours per day for a half hour between each order, and longer if a customer is late or no shows. That’s the commercial use difference. And then for the safety aspects, you’d have to have the pizza truck block access to the fire boat, and have the truck try to entirely avoid rush hour traffic at 80+ MPH en route to Union Wharf without being able to touch the brakes. And that’s before modifying the truck to have the loudest exhaust system you have heard for the enjoyment of the neighbors.

But if you use your original hypothetical of a typical intermittent pizza delivery, that would sound awfully a lot like the incidental use for a barge.Perhaps this is why face to face conversation is the most effective way to communicate. Your reply to me could not be more misinformed (or perhaps intentionally deceptive to fit your narrative).

I know I must be sensitive to everyone, but what you are saying is completely false. My company name isn't Union Warf, and I'm not basing my operations out of there. I've said this multiple times. The only reason I keep replying to you is not to convince you, but to show everyone else that you are not correct. I'm not being mean or crass, I'm just letting you know that your description of my business is not just a little bit false but entirely false.

My wish would be that you would accept what I'm saying is true, however you have an agenda that is clear. So, I only engage to continue to show my resolve.

I'm all for the bumper stickers. Please show us who you are and do not be shy to engage us in conversation.

Have a nice day.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[CowTimes]

I'm not basing my operations out of there. I've said this multiple times.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

That is a very conclusive statement for which you have provided no factual support. I, and others on this forum, have asked a handful of questions dozens of times on the anticipated use of the Wharf, which you have ignored. If your position is that your operations will not be “based” on Union Wharf, then where else are you picking up tours? Where do you think you are based? Your Mirror Lake home where you will operate no tours from? Will you not advertise that you will be operating off Union Wharf as the location for tours?

[FlyingScot]

It's a very small, vocal, minority, but they are fighting their own battle with logic when they make the argument.



Small, vocal, minority? You're delusional. Why would any 19 Mile Bay boater want to compete for space with a seaplane landing or takeoff every half-hour? Why would any nearby resident want the drone of the plane also twice hourly? Why would the town want to give a huge number of dock hours to any one business or person?

The Selectmen made it clear that you would get plenty of people pushing back, you should have listened more closely

[knowit]

The beautiful thing is we do not need to keep engaging you in this conversation. Your belligerent, condescending comments are getting tiring. We will let our selectmen do the talking for us. This entire thread of “he said she said” is pointless other than getting the message to the public and letting them see character of those involved. To that end both you and the store owner have proven our point.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

This thread is definitely dead... Thanks everyone!

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[CowTimes]

This thread is definitely dead... Thanks everyone!

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Agreed. No point when you won’t answer basic questions. Perhaps you will answer questions at the town hearing (it this gets that far). See you there.

[P-3 Guy]

This thread is definitely dead... Thanks everyone!

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Wait! Don’t pronounce this thread dead yet! When you first joined the discussion, you said you would “like to address anyone’s concerns;” you told us to “feel free to ask;” etc. Well, I have asked several questions, you replied to some, but others (some asked multiple times) you have completely ignored. While the thread still has a pulse, please answer:

“For tail clearance. It's not just for me. That's what I'm trying to convey.”
If it's not just for you, who else wants to have the wharf posts shortened?

How far will the tail project over the wharf when the aircraft is alongside?

When the aircraft is secured to the wharf, what will the aircraft's orientation be?

It sounds like the aft ends of the floats will be facing the wharf, is this correct?

"As low as possible down to deck height... leaving enough for boaters to tie to." What is the maximum post height that would be acceptable to you?

Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts?

[LIforrelaxin]

Is this the first time you have ever experienced something like this? You're comments seem like we are inventing something new. Anyone with any common sense and reason can see this isn't an issue.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

So, As I look at the picture you posted, your wings would appear to be roughly 6 ft. off the top of the wharf... Drop that lake a foot, and that would have them roughly 5 feet off the top of the wharf... if others are trying to use the wharf how will you feel when they are touching your plane? Bump things off your plane on accident, etc.

In another thread you mention using your plane to help in emergency situations, is this the plane you are referring to?

Don't get me wrong those are great little planes, what is it a Cessna 180, or something similar... The best this plane could hope for to help with, is going to be as a searcher in a search and rescue mission.

I have no problem in what you are trying to do.... But lets stop beating around the bush, lay the full plan on the table, and we can all move on with our lives.

I will agree that the posts are an issue, for a seaplane but hold on, so are the posts, in Meredith, Center Harbor, Wolfeboro, the Wiers and I could go on. Why aren't these other locations being considered? Why is Tuftonboro being targeted? I think it is because it is quiet place on the lake where it is perceived a plane could be left safely for short period of times. As a private citizen I see no problem in you wanting that. However if you have intentions of a private site seeing business then your going about it all wrong.

This issue hear is the unknown... What is Epic Seaplane adventures, what are its intentions... Put the details on the table. stop trying to hide behind your screen, and maybe you will gain support.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

All, I appreciate everyone's support and encouragement with this issue. I have attempted to come here on this forum in good faith.

What I have found is that there are a few people on here who are regular agitators, who enjoy being keyboard warriors.

All one need to do is take a few minutes to search their previous postings to see that they have no interest in doing anything other than attempting to bully others who have other view points. Go back and search threads like "mask wearing in grocery stores" and you will find the very same aggressive behavior that these same agitators are displaying here. What you will find is that (one particular person even had the nerve to call people names who disagree with them. Names typical to the narratives, like xenophobic. Oh the irony, because now they hate on this thread and are completely xenophobic! Their thread had even been locked by the mediator because it got so ugly.) Debating with these individuals is a complete waste of time.

In stead of debate and honesty they just spread hate, division, and only seek to cancel people who disagree with them.

These people are not concerned citizens, they are activists.

Our world does not benefit from these people. These people hate others who disagree with them.

I hope to meet all of you reasonable people some day, but there are people (not everyone) on here who are the very same type of people you would see blocking a highway or organizing a march somewhere. It's always the same very few.

I no longer have the time or energy to respond to these folks. Again, go back and search their previous posts. You will see that their intolerance for others is deafening.

I have a family, a job, and a wonderful life. I thank God for that every day.

Thank you for letting me use this forum to counter the "outrage", and expose who these people really are.

See you all at the (if we have one) public meeting. What you will discover is that we are reasonable, logical, and very considerate individuals who want this town to succeed!

Have a good day everyone.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

I thought post #232 was the end for you, you just could not let it go and had to take a few more cheap shots. Shows your true character.

[Sundancer320]

All, I appreciate everyone's support and encouragement with this issue. I have attempted to come here on this forum in good faith.

What I have found is that there are a few people on here who are regular agitators, who enjoy being keyboard warriors.

All one need to do is take a few minutes to search their previous postings to see that they have no interest in doing anything other than attempting to bully others who have other view points. Go back and search threads like "mask wearing in grocery stores" and you will find the very same aggressive behavior that these same agitators are displaying here. What you will find is that (one particular person even had the nerve to call people names who disagree with them. Names typical to the narratives, like xenophobic. Oh the irony, because now they hate on this thread and are completely xenophobic! Their thread had even been locked by the mediator because it got so ugly.) Debating with these individuals is a complete waste of time.

In stead of debate and honesty they just spread hate, division, and only seek to cancel people who disagree with them.

These people are not concerned citizens, they are activists.

Our world does not benefit from these people. These people hate others who disagree with them.

I hope to meet all of you reasonable people some day, but there are people (not everyone) on here who are the very same type of people you would see blocking a highway or organizing a march somewhere. It's always the same very few.

I no longer have the time or energy to respond to these folks. Again, go back and search their previous posts. You will see that their intolerance for others is deafening.

I have a family, a job, and a wonderful life. I thank God for that every day.

Thank you for letting me use this forum to counter the "outrage", and expose who these people really are.

See you all at the (if we have one) public meeting. What you will discover is that we are reasonable, logical, and very considerate individuals who want this town to succeed!

Have a good day everyone.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Wow, this is just so rich....

[chocophile]

Last Saturday at our home on 19-Mile Bay, I heard a seaplane fly low, land in the bay and taxi toward the town docks. Later, it taxied out and took off. It was fun to watch, and very loud--louder than any boats.

Almost every summer there is an occasional ultra-light or seaplane that lands in the bay. Our friends on Bear Island got a ride in a seaplane from the end of their dock one year. Great!

But something that's fun to watch once or twice a summer is not the same as a business that makes trips several times a day on weekends.

This is similar to a zoning question. Occasional use for pleasure is very different from business use, and towns use zoning rules to accommodate various uses. Should 19-Mile Bay and the docks be zoned as an airport?

It is also a question of whether town property should be used for a commercial business similar to the Millie-B at the Wolfeboro town docks. The operators of the Millie-B probably pay for the right to use that dock. The town decided that it adds to the overall benefit of the town to allow it, drawing visitors and earning some income from the dock. No problem. That's the town's explicit decision, and they probably re-visit it every year or so to be sure it still makes sense for the town.

In my opinion, 19-Mile Bay is not like the Wolfeboro town docks, and the town should have the ability to decide what's in its best interest if someone wants to run a business using town docks.

I'm not against seaplanes or ultra-lights using the bay occasionally for pleasure. I am not against small businesses since I am a small business owner.

But I am against the repeated very loud noise of a seaplane business that changes the character of the area for families who want to experience it as a recreational place.

[TheTimeTraveler]

Does anyone accurately know when the Town of Tuftonboro will be holding a Public Hearing on this application?

Also, will the hearing be held "virtually" or "in person" ?

Please post if you are able to provide any Town information regarding this.

[CowTimes]

Does anyone accurately know when the Town of Tuftonboro will be holding a Public Hearing on this application?

Also, will the hearing be held "virtually" or "in person" ?

Please post if you are able to provide any Town information regarding this.

It has not been set yet. The selectmen have said they will provide ample public notice before a hearing is held. Also, it is not exactly clear, at least to me, what the hearing will be on, such as whether the wharf can be used for any seaplanes, the commercial tour business, or both. I would expect the selectmen will provide more clarity as to what is even being considered before there is a public hearing.

[LIforrelaxin]

All, I appreciate everyone's support and encouragement with this issue. I have attempted to come here on this forum in good faith.

What I have found is that there are a few people on here who are regular agitators, who enjoy being keyboard warriors.

All one need to do is take a few minutes to search their previous postings to see that they have no interest in doing anything other than attempting to bully others who have other view points. Go back and search threads like "mask wearing in grocery stores" and you will find the very same aggressive behavior that these same agitators are displaying here. What you will find is that (one particular person even had the nerve to call people names who disagree with them. Names typical to the narratives, like xenophobic. Oh the irony, because now they hate on this thread and are completely xenophobic! Their thread had even been locked by the mediator because it got so ugly.) Debating with these individuals is a complete waste of time.

In stead of debate and honesty they just spread hate, division, and only seek to cancel people who disagree with them.

These people are not concerned citizens, they are activists.

Our world does not benefit from these people. These people hate others who disagree with them.

I hope to meet all of you reasonable people some day, but there are people (not everyone) on here who are the very same type of people you would see blocking a highway or organizing a march somewhere. It's always the same very few.

I no longer have the time or energy to respond to these folks. Again, go back and search their previous posts. You will see that their intolerance for others is deafening.

I have a family, a job, and a wonderful life. I thank God for that every day.

Thank you for letting me use this forum to counter the "outrage", and expose who these people really are.

See you all at the (if we have one) public meeting. What you will discover is that we are reasonable, logical, and very considerate individuals who want this town to succeed!

Have a good day everyone.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Interesting.... I asked some questions in good faith, in this thread and other. But see yet no response. I have read the statement from the State of NH that is the first step in getting FAA approval. And I of course have read your statements here... I repeat to understand what is going on here, There are questions that need answers.....

What are the intentions from a business stand point of Epic Sea Plane Adventures?
Why as part of the survey of the Area, was Fuel depot as a possibility mentioned?
Whey was the idea of a alternate docking solution, tied to the existing fuel dock mentioned?
What type of planes does Epic Seaplane Adventures have access to, that they want to get involved in search and more importantly rescue?
Why when I reserch into Epic Seaplane Adventures do I come across another entity called Self Defense of New England, with the same mailing and Principal office Addresses? This entity was even registered with the state at the approximate the same time.

Something seems off here.... All the information I have requested should be easy for a legitimate business to out line.... And to think that the last bit of information, I was able to find with in a couple of minutes using google.

I am probably one of the people you think is a bad apple, and I am fine with that... I have a long history of working for the betterment of boaters rights within the state of NH.... I know seaplane base and airfield owners, in Vermont, and Maine and New Hampshire,..... If I wasn't so addicted to boating and camping, I would probably take up flying.... But like having a Motor Cycle it is a hobby I don't mind living with out. If you think I am hiding behind a screen, feel free to contact me through a private message, I would like nothing better than to meet, and listen to understand what you are hoping to accomplish. What I don't understand, is when people speak without being ready to back up and detail their intentions.

[knowit]

Epic Seaplane Adventures has gone silent.
Maybe he is out on one of his epic adventures!

[DEJ]

Just as well as everyone has stated their opinions and nothing more to be gained by arguing here.

Sent from my SM-T387V using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

[LIforrelaxin]

So I have had a chance to talk with Epic Seaplane Adventures(ESA) and with his permission, am going to detail a little bit about what I have found out.

- What is being requested from the FAA, is nothing unusual and likely not even what any of us may have originally thought. It will allow the 19 mile bay landing area to be official recognized and be given a GPS way point, for air navigation. Unfortunately the terminology used "sea plane base" makes it appear more ominous then it really is. Realize that anyone of us could actually do this, if we had a seaplane and had waterfront property.

- ESA's intention, from the usage of the pier is actually pretty simple, if it is easier for him to get in and out, he can use it if needed to pick someone up or drop someone off or even just take a short ride from his place with guests to get some ice-cream. He has no intentions to have his plane there on a regular basis.

- ESA's business is not a full time operation by any stretch of the imagination, he works elsewhere and yes if asked he is willing to give people a tour in his plane....

In my determination after a discussion with ESA, he is really just looking for some consideration, that will enhanced the usability of the wharf.

That said lets move on, ESA didn't file the paper work for the Approval. The owner of Pier 19 did. From their end there is motivation from a business aspect, hence the discussion in the work done to date about creating a gas dock situation, with ethanol free gas. If there are concerns of the commercialization aspects of what is going on they need to be directed there....

Bottom line, cut ESA some slack.... Seaplane have a place on this lake, and deserve the ability to use public assets just like barges, and boaters...

[CUINS]

This is not directed at ESA but my IMHO commercial enterprise should have to pay for the use of public facilities. There are now more and more businesses on the lake that are dependent on public docks and ramps which in turn denies or delays public access.

[CowTimes]

I read LIforrelaxin’s post, and have to ask why ESA didn’t provide such details directly when asked repeatedly how often he would be using the dock. The details as conveyed by LIforrelaxin seem to contradict to what ESA said in post 94:

My hypothetical that I gave to the fire chief and copied the selectman on the email was an example that if there were business hours between 10:00 a.m. and 7:00 p.m., just using that as an example (not specific at all) that my business plan was to never book more than one flight per hour.

This would suggest that, although the business is not yet operating, there is the contemplation that it could ultimately be a 9 tour per day operation. This seems like a classic slippery slope situation—permit commercial use of the dock here and there to run tours, and if it takes off, it will be hard for anyone to then stop it.

That ESA won’t go “on record” directly as to what his intentions are, or the maximum amount of time he would be using the dock, raises a lot of red flags for me.

[LIforrelaxin]

This is not directed at ESA but my IMHO commercial enterprise should have to pay for the use of public facilities. There are now more and more businesses on the lake that are dependent on public docks and ramps which in turn denies or delays public access.

So this is an interesting comment. I have never seen a business causing a situation at a public access point, where I would say they caused an unnecessary delay in public access. The point of public access points, is not only to allow John Q. Citizen access but to also allow business access as well. What I have a seen in a few area's where business entities utilize public access points, to a point that it could be considered causing unnecessary delays, is that those business work with the State and or Towns to improve the access points, so that they can utilize it for their business needs, as well as allow John Q. Citizen the access they desire.. Best example of this State Access on LI, by Harrilla Landing... All improvements there, have been done by the construction company that uses that as their primary loading point on the northern side of the Lake. It was part of the deal struck between the company and the State. I also know there was a water Taxi business that utilized the Weirs dock, and payed the town a fee to do so. Last in the discussions regarding the famous "Dive Bar" they are willing to pay for improvements to the Weirs dock as well........ Just because things are made obvious don't think that business are just allowed to do what ever they want they aren't.....

[DEJ]

The fact that the wing pretty much goes across the entire wharf blocking quick emergengy vehicle access to the fireboat and fish and game boat is in my opinion the reason planes should not be able to use the wharf. Imagine if there was more than one plane tied up to the wharf and ambulance and fire personnel needed the wharf how could those planes be moved quickly? The answer is they could not.
The store owner and epic should be looking into expanding the store owners dock for this business, perhaps they are. No matter where/if this business is run from I am sure the residents of 19 mile bay are not going to tolerate 9 or so flights a day. Epic can if he chooses can run this business immediately from his private dock on mirror lake. I wonder why he is not doing so?

Sent from my SM-T387V using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

[LIforrelaxin]

As I have taken the time to introduce myself and have fruitful conversation with ESA, I can now see why he got frustrated. I deal with these types of situations all the time so honestly the bickering on this forum doesn't phase me in the least....

lets talk about a couple of concerns, I am seeing raised.

1st, wing span over the wharf. Do you realize that a sea plane can be re-positioned very easily so that the wings are no longer over the wharf? And of the many pilots I have known of the years, I can't think of one of them that is ignorant enough not to do so if an emergency situation evolved. DEJ, I know you don't think so but is is pretty easy to move a small plane on floats around if you know what you doing.... A neighbor of mine use to do it all the time.. at his property... I myself have moved small planes around on land, once you know where what you can and can't grab a hold of... they move quiet easily.... We aren't talking about 747s here folks....

2nd, I think that everyone (including myself until I talked more with ESA), envision planes potentially be left for long duration. That isn't the case... what is the harm of an attended plane sitting there, that could fairly easily be maneuvered so that the wings didn't interfere with emergency activities. Honestly the situation isn't any worse then when the come to take the fire boat out for an emergency.... they have to get it ready, and people have to get out of the way....

3rd, do folks understand what it takes to secure a plane and leave it for a long duration unattended? its not so simple, and the way things are now, even with the posts shortened, that isn't even a consideration at the wharf.... And as long as the town doesn't allow improvements beyond cutting down the posts there never will be.

Once again cut ESA some slack.... If your concerned about growing business opertunities, the store owner is the one that has a vision that could change things, and add docking that would facilitate SEA Plane fueling at there already existing dock......

I suggest before getting all negative on this whole Idea people go spend some time at a small airfield. Get a feeling for how busy they aren't... Flying is an expensive game.... 19 mile bay will never turn into Manchester airport.... yep on any given weekend maybe a handful of planes would show up.... But not all at once.... and never for very long....... possibility of damage at the existing dock is to great.