When does it end? How can it?

[Not to Worry]

Below are what Birx and Fauci said yesterday. The logical question is when can this virus be contained? Once we re-open the country it seems like the infection rates would climb again. All they are saying and trying to do is blunt the curve. Seems logical to me that until we have a vaccine we will continue to live in a apocalyptic world. Trumps replies seem totally out of touch with reality.

"Dr. Birx: (01:30:00)
We’re watching them because they are starting to go on that upside of the curve. We’re hoping and believing that if people mitigate strongly, the work that they did over the last two weeks will blunt that curve, and they won’t have the same upward slope and peak that New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, and part of Rhode Island are having. So the next two weeks are extraordinarily important, and that’s why I think you’ve heard from Dr. Fauci, from myself, from the President and the Vice President, that this is the moment to do everything that you can on the presidential guidelines. This is the moment to not be going to the grocery store and not going to the pharmacy, but doing everything you can to keep your family and your friends safe. That means everybody doing the six feet distancing, washing your hands.
Donald Trump: (01:30:56)
Go ahead. [inaudible 01:30:57].
Dr. Fauci: (01:30:57)
So, I mean ditto to everything that Dr. Birx said, but also to emphasize why it’s so important to do that because we’re looking at three or four really key hotspots that are still going up. It’s absolutely essential that the ones that are down at that lower level that Dr. Burke showed the other day, those communities where they’re still going up, we’ve got to make sure we don’t have multiple waves of peaks. That’s going to be the answer to the question of when we can start pulling back because if you keep having multiple peaks and different waves, that’s going to make it very difficult."

[CowTimes]

I think you’re right. It is going to be a very different world for a year or so until there is a vaccine or proven treatment. This is not an issue for just a few weeks. If there are just a few cases floating around, and all things go back to normal, we end up back in the same position as today in a matter of weeks. My guess is after all of this peaks with the current distancing, some businesses and restaurants will reopen and there will be a lot more emphasis on contact tracing as cases arise. This will be much easier in places like New Hampshire, as opposed to New York City. But many people will not feel comfortable going out or returning to business as usual.

We will see what happens in China in just a few weeks, as it is now opening back up.

[Biggd]

All they can do is keep warning us. It's up to us to heed their warnings and stay home as much as possible.
Some people still think it's "fake news" and their freedoms are being invaded. :(

[Paugus Bay Resident]

The CDC has a number of timelines for all the past pandemics, https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/basics/past-pandemics.html

Gives some insights of durations, etc. There certainly have been a lot more than I realized or remember all with a large impact. Helps keep things in perspective as we managed through all of these, not without significant loss of life though.

[Not to Worry]

All they can do is keep warning us. It's up to us to heed their warnings and stay home as much as possible.
Some people still think it's "fake news" and their freedoms are being invaded. :(

I think all dictators or want to be dictators start off by marginalizing the media. There is accurate news out there and sure sometimes you have to delve deeper into the story understand what is opinion versus fact. I think we all know Fox and MSNBC have a bias.

[MAXUM]

You have to take under consideration that the President and VP are not subject matter experts on this, this is why they have brought in Drs Birx and Fauci to be advisers and help with establishing guidelines for everyone to follow as well as relay to the public information that is accurate and meaningful. Both seem to be very smart and call it as they see it, even if it is at odds with what the President says. The country as a whole is indebted to individuals like this considering the world we live in right now with so much misinformation out there.

One thing is for certain the feds can't keep printing money and can't be spending trillions upon trillions of "dollars" indefinitely. At some point the economic engine of this country needs to be restarted. How that happens remains to be seen but make no mistake about it, the very survival of this country is at stake if this doesn't start happening. Trump like him or no knows this and why I'm sure he will be looking for ways to facilitate that.

[Juiced06GTO]

My roommate from college currently lives in Beijing, I wouldn't really say they are returning to normal. Here is a video from about two weeks ago after being in quarantine for two months. He and his wife are still staying in. This isn't over for a long time....

https://youtu.be/AJfi1T8F4BM

[garysanfran]

I think all dictators or want to be dictators start off by marginalizing the media. There is accurate news out there and sure sometimes you have to delve deeper into the story understand what is opinion versus fact. I think we all know Fox and MSNBC have a bias.

I think your bias is showing...

[loony]

I read in today's paper that Italy is proposing lifting the quarantine only for those that have the covid-19 antibodies. Assuming that people who have gotten and survived covid-19 carry the antibodies and cannot be re infected. This may be the only sensible solution until a vaccine or treatment can be found.

[JEEPONLY]

All they can do is keep warning us. It's up to us to heed their warnings and stay home as much as possible.
Some people still think it's "fake news" and their freedoms are being invaded. :(

Remind you of anyone on this forum? Probably get kicked off for this!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X29lF43mUlo

[Rich]

I don't think anyone can yet predict when this is over. It may be a first 'wave', who knows?

I've being trying to find factual data or facts, but it's hard to find as everyone has their opinion and many are politically or financially jaded.

From the data viewed from the link below, which seems to be used by gov and media, it seems it's going to last into July as a minimum:

http://covid19.healthdata.org/

You can drill into NH and see the predictions.

I'm not using this data to see resources needed (as it's intended) but to try to understand how long this may last. Most of the current curves seem to end about the beginning of July. This may be a moving target as they gather more real data, vs their predictions. I know that no one can predict this yet as we're dependent on others staying home.

Unfortunately we must go shopping for food. so there is some exposure to all of us at one time or another.

I also think it will get better when we can all take an anti-body test to see if we've had it and recovered, then those people can safely go shopping, work, etc. Of course, no one has proven if once you have recovered, how long (if any) is a period of immunity?

[SAMIAM]

Remind you of anyone on this forum? Probably get kicked off for this!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X29lF43mUlo

Hope you don't get bounced...that was pretty funny : )

[Jersey Bob]

Hope you don't get bounced...that was pretty funny : )

Yea, I just don't know about using the same brush on all 4 areas though😄

[SAB1]

My skeptical mind say when they have a vaccine, will we really know it’s safe? Or is just something rushed to market ......

[Not to Worry]

My skeptical mind say when they have a vaccine, will we really know it’s safe? Or is just something rushed to market ......

I agree. Die by vaccine or Covid

[gwhite13]

If there is a vaccine, how will that set with the alt. right anti-vaxers? can they be appeased coming from even agent orange.

[SailinAway]

You have to take under consideration that the President and VP are not subject matter experts on this, this is why they have brought in Drs Birx and Fauci to be advisers

Trump does not listen to his own advisors and he doesn't want us to listen to them either. From today's New York Times:

"At a White House coronavirus briefing Sunday, President Trump continued to push hydroxychloroquine against the advice of doctors and health experts who say its efficacy against the coronavirus is unproven. . . . When a reporter asked Dr. Anthony S. Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, to weigh in on the question of using hydroxychloroquine, Mr. Trump stopped him from answering. As the reporter noted that Dr. Fauci was the president’s medical expert, Mr. Trump made it clear he did not want the doctor to answer.

“He’s answered the question 15 times,” the president said, stepping toward the lectern where Mr. Fauci was standing."

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Trump does not listen to his own advisors and he doesn't want us to listen to them either. From today's New York Times:

"At a White House coronavirus briefing Sunday, President Trump continued to push hydroxychloroquine against the advice of doctors and health experts who say its efficacy against the coronavirus is unproven. . . . When a reporter asked Dr. Anthony S. Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, to weigh in on the question of using hydroxychloroquine, Mr. Trump stopped him from answering. As the reporter noted that Dr. Fauci was the president’s medical expert, Mr. Trump made it clear he did not want the doctor to answer.

“He’s answered the question 15 times,” the president said, stepping toward the lectern where Mr. Fauci was standing."

I choose not to engage in the political side of things, but we have been fairly engrossed in the press conferences relating to the Coronavirus, which is pretty rampant down here in Florida. I sometimes cringe at some of the things the President says, but my interpretation of his comments on the use of hydrochloroquine is that it has been shown to be useful in treating many cases of the virus, and many doctors are prescribing it despite the fact that these haven’t been many scientific studies to prove or disprove its value. If I were severely ill with the virus and my options were few, and they wanted to try that medication, I hope that my attitude would be to “Go ahead; what do I have to lose?” I think that’s the attitude of the President. In the case of this awful pandemic, there isn’t time to wait years to get sufficient data. For what it’s worth, that’s my take.

[dva]

What if you are a Firelighter or any Public safety officer would you like access to the medication knowing you are going to be exposed to the virus ?

[Newbiesaukee]

I have been on the Forum for many years and it has been an important part of my life. In particular, I learn things from experts by training/ experience that I knew nothing about....boating, engines, agriculture, government...even politics.

The subject I want to discuss is important and I know about it. I won’t discuss politics except one statement at the end and, even that, is not really political. I have never worked for the pharmaceutical companies.

Modern medicine is not a science...it is an art, dealing with people is a skill. The advances in medicine have been spectacular over the past 150 years. Some of today’s treatments would have been unthinkable to me when I was a medical student.

The reason for this success is that medicine has been built on the scientific method. And as far as the medications we use, the basis of this success is the double blind study. And some of the medication disasters have been largely because the studies have been poorly done or not done at all.

All of you know the basics. You believe a drug will cure headaches. You take a hundred volunteers, you divide them into 2 equal groups and give the medication to one group and a similar appearing pill without the med to the other group and you see if it “works.” Does the real pill group get better than the placebo group? The technique is much more complicated than this but this is the basic idea. And the placebo effect is REAL. Even in terminal cancer studies, as many as 10 % of patients who get placebo get better compared to untreated patients. In acne studies the placebo rate can reach 40%.

Anyway, to the point. A lot of medical advancements have been by accident...insulin, penicillin,etc. When patients have devasatiing infections they usually die of and they are cured with penicillin you don’t need a placebo.

Let’s get real. There is a lot of vital information about Covid 19 we do not know. We know that the vast majority of those who get it recover. It seems to be that older people are more likely to die than younger but still most recover. This is important; if everyone died, then a new drug that worked might not require the same testing.

Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine have been around a long time. They are relatively safe. I have used hydroxychloroquine in lupus patients always concerned about the serious visual side effects. The observations of their possible effectiveness is interesting and MUST be pursued. But we do need a control group because of the high natural cure rate of the disease. As the drug and (unfortunately) lots of patients are available a good trial can be done relatively quickly. So,why shouldn’t people just take it, like the President suggests.

1. We still need to know if it really works. If it doesn’t we will have lost precious time and huge resources just “trying it.”

2. Although it is relatively safe, we do not know if it is safe in Covid 19 patients. Sometimes drugs work in some diseases but make others worse.

3. Again, in this largely self curable disease, we don’t want millions of people taking it who do not need it.

4. The idea of taking it to prevent the disease has, at present, even less evidence that it works.

A quick word on vaccines...we do know how to make them but they also need to be tested to see if they work (few do 100%). And new vaccines may have very unexpected consequences and serious side effects.

Finally, the politics. The President has every right to overrule his advisors in any field, military, legal, etc. It is ok to,use his “gut.” If u don’t like it, don’t elect him.

BUT, he knows very little about science and medicine. He has very good medical advisors whom the people trust. To me, it is just wrong, scientifically and ethically to keep promoting unproven treatments. And if it works, and probably 90% of patients will not need it, then encouraging the public to get their docs to write a prescription may make it harder for the ones who need it.

I don’t care if he wears a face mask. And if I were president with the ability to test everyone around me all,the time I probably wouldn’t wear one either. But touting unproven therapy IS a different issue.

Finally, just for the record I had read about the positive study a few days before the President described the “game changer.”
I have not written a prescription for myself or family.

[lakewinnie]

I appreciate all of the details on the medical issues that are communicated in the President's daily press briefings, but for the life of me, I cannot understand why there has been little, if any, discussion on the grocery supply issues? There has been little focus on this by the President and by the press. For God's sake, stop asking questions about the impeachment and ask Trump when we are going to get our toilet paper.

Is it because we are facing a food supply shortage and they don't want to freak us out?

[FlyingScot]

One addition to New's excellent post--The other "side effect" to promoting an unproven cure is that the medicine will not be there for those who will actually need it--lupus patients in this case--or those who should be first in line when it is proven--the health care workers on the front lines as dva points out.

[ApS]

In other discussions, the talk was of a hydroxychloroquine-zinc cocktail.(Not just hydroxychloroquine).

When COVID-19 first appeared, I bought some
supplemental Zinc. Now I learn there are three different Zinc derivatives.

Which would be best? :confused:

[fatlazyless]

For God's sake, stop asking questions about the impeachment and ask Trump when we are going to get our toilet paper.

A large Canadien/Canadian maker of toilet paper www.pro.cascades.com/en based in Quebec where it cuts down huge Canadien pine trees and reduces them down to rolls of white toilet paper has trucks that can regularly be seen on Route 93, presumably loaded with toilet paper.

Cascades Transport, Kingsey Falls, Quebec www.cascades.com/fr/produits-services/services/transport ..... the truck has a large roll of toilet paper shown on the outside of their 53' van tractors, and toilet paper truck design art flowing down the length of the tractor and trailer.

Hey there Cascades-Quebec ....... truck it on down here to central New Hampshire ...... toilet paper on the roll ...... O CANADA!

[Mr. V]

I cannot understand why there has been little, if any, discussion on the grocery supply issues?

Many of the grocery store shelves are bare / have noticeable empty areas in the grocery stores out west: not just TP or hand sanitizer.

There is definitely a negative effect from the pandemic on the grocery supply chain.

[JEEPONLY]

Yea, I just don't know about using the same brush on all 4 areas though😄

Use two and choose! :eek:

[VitaBene]

I appreciate all of the details on the medical issues that are communicated in the President's daily press briefings, but for the life of me, I cannot understand why there has been little, if any, discussion on the grocery supply issues? There has been little focus on this by the President and by the press. For God's sake, stop asking questions about the impeachment and ask Trump when we are going to get our toilet paper.

Is it because we are facing a food supply shortage and they don't want to freak us out?
We are not facing a shortage but virtually every person in this country is buying more, in many cases much more, of many items than they normally do.

The supply chain needs to catch back up, but also remember that the chain is weaker due to illness and businesses being shut down.

[LIforrelaxin]

There a lot of question about when will this end? What will happen, when we come out of quarantine? etc. etc. etc.

Really folks, people need to stop hypothesizing, We are living in this moment, and no one, even the brightest minds on the subject really have a clue. All you have to do is listen to them speak, and think about the words they are using.

My guess is we will be stuck in this holding pattern, of most people working from home for while. Yes slowly they are going to have to let restaurants open back up, and life return to normal. But I think there will be a hand on the trigger for a while, and when they feel there is a chance that we are going to see another outbreak they will pull the trigger and send as all back home again. I don't think when that happens that it will be country wide again. I think there will be a more isolated approach.

As Long as I remain productive, I am guessing I am not going to be back in the office, probably until June or July given what I am seeing. Unfortunately I know many people aren't as lucky as I am....

[ApS]

We are 14 days into self isolation and it’s really upsetting me to see my wife standing at the living room window gazing aimlessly into space with tears running down her cheeks. It breaks my heart to see her like this.

I have thought very hard how i can cheer her up. I have even considered letting her in... but rules are rules.

[TheProfessor]

We are not facing a shortage but virtually every person in this country is buying more, in many cases much more, of many items than they normally do.

The supply chain needs to catch back up, but also remember that the chain is weaker due to illness and businesses being shut down.

Yes. Many businesses are shut down. Only "essential" businesses are open.

Here in New Hampshire Governor Sununu has proclaimed 27 Emergency Orders. And they keep coming. Other states may be doing the same which does impact the supply chain. Sometimes with unintended consequences.

[TiltonBB]

Four benchmarks for a return to normalcy

Researchers recently outlined some markers:

1. Hospitals must be able to safely treat all patients requiring hospitalization, without resorting to crisis standards of care. That means having adequate beds, ventilators and staff.

2. The authorities must be able to test everyone who has symptoms, and to get reliable results quickly. That would be well more than 750,000 tests a week in the U.S.

3. Health agencies must be able to monitor confirmed cases, trace contacts of the infected, and have at-risk people go into isolation or quarantine.

4. There must be a sustained reduction in cases for at least 14 days, because it can take that long for symptoms to appear.

[FlyingScot]

We are 14 days into self isolation and it’s really upsetting me to see my wife standing at the living room window gazing aimlessly into space with tears running down her cheeks. It breaks my heart to see her like this.

I have thought very hard how i can cheer her up. I have even considered letting her in... but rules are rules.

I hear you--it's tough.

I spend half the day in pajamas, watching videos, napping. And the rest of my time is just wasted...

[Wifi-1]

I know some people, with this new found spare time, picking up the Good Book, blowing the dust off, and doing some reading. Puts things in perspective :)

[Orion]

[/B]Four benchmarks for a return to normalcy

Researchers recently outlined some markers:

1. Hospitals must be able to safely treat all patients requiring hospitalization, without resorting to crisis standards of care. That means having adequate beds, ventilators and staff.

2. The authorities must be able to test everyone who has symptoms, and to get reliable results quickly. That would be well more than 750,000 tests a week in the U.S.

3. Health agencies must be able to monitor confirmed cases, trace contacts of the infected, and have at-risk people go into isolation or quarantine.

4. There must be a sustained reduction in cases for at least 14 days, because it can take that long for symptoms to appear.

The above is true from purely a medical perspective, but I would add one more.... a prophylactic drug of some sort. Whether this is Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine or something else will remain to be seen. Given that, we can't wait for the "normal" complete drug assessment to be completed since there are people dying daily. And as I would be assessing for myself in that case, "what do I have to lose" in taking a long-available drug. At least one Democrat Congresswomen is eternally grateful for the President shedding light on these drugs.

Outside of the medical issues here, this is truly a classic risk assessment evaluation that must be performed to determine when we start to return to normal. While Faucci and Birx are focused on minimizing deaths from the virus, there are other very real risks in keeping the government shut down, many that will also increase deaths. In a risk assessment model, you weigh probabilities vs. consequence. If something has a low probability of occurring, we can live with a bit more sever consequence. If it is a high probability of occurring, we need to reduce the consequence. Right now this virus has given us high probability and high consequence. The quarantines have aimed at reducing the probability but we need to focus on reducing the consequences to be able to ease up on the quarantine. A vaccine would do that but that is at least a year out. If we had a prophylactic drug available to be taken, or a quick cure, or a prior-exposure test, or all three were available, the risk would drop down to minimal and we could get back to work.

The bottom line is that the President has a very tough set of decisions to make and it can not be totally the call of the doctors. This is an unprecedented complex medical and economic situation and there is very little history to use to climb out of it. But rest assured, whatever decision he makes will be questioned, right or wrong.

[ApS]

Maybe not too far off...

A COVID-19 vaccine that "piggy-backs" on the vaccine for rabies. :eek2:

https://www.phillyvoice.com/jefferson-covid-19-vaccine-rabies-coravax-coronavirus-pandemic-philadelphia/

[FlyingScot]

[/B]

The above is true from purely a medical perspective, but I would add one more.... a prophylactic drug of some sort. Whether this is Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine or something else will remain to be seen. Given that, we can't wait for the "normal" complete drug assessment to be completed since there are people dying daily. And as I would be assessing for myself in that case, "what do I have to lose" in taking a long-available drug. At least one Democrat Congresswomen is eternally grateful for the President shedding light on these drugs.

Outside of the medical issues here, this is truly a classic risk assessment evaluation that must be performed to determine when we start to return to normal. While Faucci and Birx are focused on minimizing deaths from the virus, there are other very real risks in keeping the government shut down, many that will also increase deaths. In a risk assessment model, you weigh probabilities vs. consequence. If something has a low probability of occurring, we can live with a bit more sever consequence. If it is a high probability of occurring, we need to reduce the consequence. Right now this virus has given us high probability and high consequence. The quarantines have aimed at reducing the probability but we need to focus on reducing the consequences to be able to ease up on the quarantine. A vaccine would do that but that is at least a year out. If we had a prophylactic drug available to be taken, or a quick cure, or a prior-exposure test, or all three were available, the risk would drop down to minimal and we could get back to work.

The bottom line is that the President has a very tough set of decisions to make and it can not be totally the call of the doctors. This is an unprecedented complex medical and economic situation and there is very little history to use to climb out of it. But rest assured, whatever decision he makes will be questioned, right or wrong.



These 5 things make sense. One thing to keep in mind on the hydroxychloroquine. I have not seen even anecdotal data on efficacy (such as, out of 100 people given the drug...). But if this is given to a few thousand people likely to be exposed, the data will pile up very fast to suggest it is effective or just a wish.

[The Real BigGuy]

I have been thinking about the whole “end” issue and the reports of several of the hot spots supposedly reaching there peaks in the next several weeks. It seems that these hot spots are located in around some of our largest cities/economic areas. There are also quite a few areas which really haven’t been hit yet. (And I really believe it is not “if” it is “when.”) If day NYC/CT/NJ starts to recover and opens up their economy how are they going to prevent people from areas that are not yet peaking from entering the area and starting things all over again? Is this the rebound I am hearing about?


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[CanisLupusArctos]

"When Will This End?"

Or... "HOW will this end?"

Go to YouTube to look at videos from all different media outlets worldwide. Read the comment threads (skim or speed-read) to gauge the general attitude of the viewers.

Apply knowledge of world history, particularly past crises.

The US isn't the only country full of upset citizens. The Brits are just as divided. Police and soldiers enforcing quarantine in many other countries are doing a better job angering the masses and abusing power than they are at accomplishing the matter at hand. It was to be expected. This situation is every control freak's wildest dreams.

That sort of thing, and other problems like the spike in domestic abuse reported by UK and French news, are sending the world's masses into a mental health tailspin.

A very large number of people have suddenly become economically hopeless. Psychologists believe that has caused a bunch of new domestic abuse in addition to toxic relationships that existed before.

History says that when the world's masses suddenly lose all the things they enjoyed, become angry, opinionated and divided, economically hopeless and abusive, crowds become desperate enough to make instant celebrities out of really dark characters like Hitler, and the whole chaotic world mess turns to warfare.

German news yesterday reported their country blamed the US for "piracy" of a shipment of masks. The headline was, "International Solidarity Breaks Down."

Meanwhile the comment thread on a Sky News Australia video was lengthy and almost entirely negative opinions on the WHO, China, and US ties to both.

Note: I do NOT offer any of this post as an opinion. I do NOT make this post to express a stance. It is important to point out "what is," whether it's dark or light (and unfortunately it looks dark) and then we apply world history to get an idea of where similar situations have led in the past.

The global stress from COVID-19 could very easily lead to war. At the very least it appears headed toward revolution in a handful of places. In the US, there is a high likelihood of court cases regarding Constitutional Rights vs. Disease Prevention. No one's stance on the issue can prevent those cases from happening if there are lawyers out there who want to pursue it. Then it gets news coverage, people polarize, and who knows?

We all know what bitterly divisive issues have caused lately. Two groups, each holding picket signs and shouting, start throwing things at each other and then the riot police move in.... then copycat behavior breaks out in other places. As with a tornado watch, "the ingredients are all there for a violent situation."

Run the tabletop exercise:

"If this domino falls, what is the usual outcome based on history and human nature?" [fill in the blank.]

"What is the most likely consequence of that?" [fill in the blank]

Repeat process.

Your tabletop exercise and mine could easily produce different results, because that happens. All results based on valid steps are worth considering, with preparation priority running from "most likely outcome" to "least likely but possible and worth remembering."

One thing is for sure: This crisis IS producing a lot of psychological effects in a very large number of people that will be long-lasting. Those who get PTSD from unresolved grief or seeing too much sadness may take years to re-achieve their previous level of functioning. NH declared PTSD a "work related injury" last July (it's eligible for benefits) and many other places have done that also. That will be a major expense for some time to come. PTSD doesn't go away overnight, if at all.

The masses will not be the same, mentally, when they come out of hiding. Most peoples' pulse rates have only just returned to normal after 3 weeks of living in a sudden whirlwind apocalypse movie. As an EMT and a storm chaser I've seen horrible stuff before, and I recently suffered horrible unexpected loss (my only sibling, with whom I was close.) That conditioned me to darkness, and it still took me about a week to process the sudden new apocalypse movie around me. For the first 3 days there were times in my waking hours when I actually thought it was a dream, just for a nanosecond.

Now, if that's me and I was pre-conditioned to darkness and horrible sudden loss, I shudder to think about where many others are at, people who aren't acquainted with darkness. Today I spoke with a friend in Boston who IS darkness-acquainted, and he'd heard from people in his life who AREN'T. He said he's been getting continuous calls from them, looking for his shoulder to lean on.

That's not a good sign, if it indicates where the masses are at. From all I've learned about psychology and the effects of rapid change & loss during my journey since 2014, I'm 99% confident most people won't be the same this summer. Some are going to need more time than others, and some are going to discover some new issues by breaking down unexpectedly.

Some people will think they have no issues, they'll get back to what they know (if they can) and in the middle of it they'll have a panic attack without knowing what a panic attack is. They'll end up at the ER thinking it's a heart attack, and they'll come out with a psych referral and some prescriptions they never thought they'd need.

Keep your eyes on human psychology at individual level x population. It's going to be an interesting aftermath.

[ApS]

"Dr. Oz" has his own website, and describes his successes with HCQ (used in Lupus treatment).

'Then interviews a French doctor with his successes.

https://detroit.cbslocal.com/2020/04/07/dr-oz-asks-rheumatologist-dr-daniel-wallace-if-any-of-his-patients-with-lupus-have-contracted-covid-19/

[ApS]

”If [Trump] had not been pushing it on a federal level, I would have not had access to it, and I would not be alive today,” she said.

After one doctor denied her request for the drug, the Detroit Democrat turned to Dr. Mohammed Arsiwala.

Arsiwala runs Michigan Urgent Care and says he's had 56 COVID-19 positive patients at nine Detroit-area urgent care facilities. Those who are too sick must be treated in the hospital, but 12 of them, including Whitsett, have been treated with a combination of an antibiotic and hydroxychloroquine". (HCQ).

https://www.abc12.com/content/news/Democratic-state-rep-explains-why-she-opted-for-unproven-COVID-19-treatment-not-hospital-569461601.html

[Wifi-1]

Maybe COVID-19 will be the cure for TDS ?

[thinkxingu]

I've not seen this posted, but the NH numbers are interesting: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/04/07/825479416/new-yorks-coronavirus-deaths-may-level-off-soon-when-might-your-state-s-peak

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[Lakegeezer]

Canis paints a bleak and possible scenario, but there are positive alternatives to consider. The peaks should be over in a few weeks and in NH may never overwhelm the system. Many tests of different treatments and vaccines are underway and bound to produce something that works, soon. The forecast models are being revised downward, probably reflecting the benefit of social distancing. And, summer is coming for the northern hemisphere.

Many things will recover quickly, some more slowly. The mental trauma that we are all experiencing to some degree will pass for most, but the scars will not disappear. Some permanent changes will be ingrained in world cultures. Preparedness will again become important, along with willingness to trust in science. Just-in-time manufacturing is going to get a second look. Essential services too.

The biggest changes will be in education and medicine. While people working in these categories are learning on the fly, new ways of educating and taking care of people remotely will be figured out. The methods that work won't go away. Our schools will stream world-class instructors to augment lessons. Our health care can be delivered remotely for many interactions, meaning lower costs and better care for those that need hands-on. It won't be long before we have tele-medicine devices in our home to measure all sort of things. For many, working at home will become an attractive option.

In the past, wars were turning points that brought improvements in our cultures, at the expense of people and property. This is a world war, but with a common enemy and hopefully, shorter duration. It will impact people and businesses as all wars do, but with lower impact than an war that uses bullets and bombs. Once won, the world benefits. 2020 will be seen as a turning point, one way or other. I believe there are reasons to look at the glass as half full.

[thinkxingu]

People have mentioned a change in schools after this, but, as a teacher, I just don't see it. The biggest shift we may see is the possibility of remote learning to replace snow days, but even that I'm not convinced will happen.

There are many, many problems with online learning, which is why most institutions use it only as supplementary education if at all (college is, of course, where most of it happens).

Once the "daycare" and "homeschool" aspect is entered into the equation, it's an immediate no-go. The percent of parents that could be available/at home for or capable of supporting that type of education is very low.

Also, we know that the social aspect is essential. My students are really struggling with this.

Finally, most parents I know and connect with on town forums are going crazy trying to balance work and school. Because my wife and and I are teachers, we've been able to cut work to the essentials and provide "authentic" (pedagogical code word!) opportunities for learning: for example, my son is learning geometry and measurements, so guess who's laying out the fort we're building?!

Cheers, all.

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[Paugus Bay Resident]

Not sure when or how this will end, but for perspective

Since the early 1900’s, we have survived

- 4 major flu pandemics (68 - 69 Hong Kong flu alone killed 1+ million worldwide)
- Numerous non-flu (polio, Ebola, Zika, SARs, MRSA, Lime Disease, EE, etc., etc.)
- 2 world wars, Cold War, Cuban Missile Crisis, Terrorism, 911, mass shootings, etc.
- A “great” depression, numerous recessions
- A bunch of stuff I’ve probably missed

I’m not dismissing the seriousness of this by any means, but this isn’t the first time and likely not the last. The biggest question to me is what will the lasting changes be.

[Orion]

I’m not dismissing the seriousness of this by any means, but this isn’t the first time and likely not the last. The biggest question to me is what will the lasting changes be.

+US becomes more self sufficient in manufacturing many things which...
+Creates more manufacturing jobs, which....
+Boosts the economy and tax revenues for infrastructure, social programs, and debt reduction.
+We discover our families and the value of socialization.
+We are better prepared for future pandemics.
+We reduce the instances of other diseases through better sanitization awareness.
+We all become a bit more aware of our dependence on each other and the services provided by many unsung heroes.
+Just maybe, I Hope, we are all a bit more civilized.

[Paugus Bay Resident]

Orion, I hope so on all points, but the older I get, the more pessimistic I get ;)

[FlyingScot]

People have mentioned a change in schools after this, but, as a teacher, I just don't see it. The biggest shift we may see is the possibility of remote learning to replace snow days, but even that I'm not convinced will happen.

There are many, many problems with online learning, which is why most institutions use it only as supplementary education if at all (college is, of course, where most of it happens).

Once the "daycare" and "homeschool" aspect is entered into the equation, it's an immediate no-go. The percent of parents that could be available/at home for or capable of supporting that type of education is very low.

Also, we know that the social aspect is essential. My students are really struggling with this.

Finally, most parents I know and connect with on town forums are going crazy trying to balance work and school. Because my wife and and I are teachers, we've been able to cut work to the essentials and provide "authentic" (pedagogical code word!) opportunities for learning: for example, my son is learning geometry and measurements, so guess who's laying out the fort we're building?!

Cheers, all.

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Plus, let's remember that it's not just relatively strong students from wealthy towns trying to learn at home. Kids who struggle academically in person (like the bottom 50%), struggle even more online. Kids who do not own computers or wifi are at a complete loss.

If your kid was on his way to BC or MIT, I'm sure he's fine with all this academically. But if your kid struggles with math or has a computer held together with band aids and string, this is cutting off his ability to have a chance at college or many careers. (That's not to say every good career requires college, only that every kid should have a chance to go)

[VitaBene]

Fortunately Moultonborough moved to "blizzard bags" and students using iPods a few years back. My youngest is slated to graduate college and start teaching in May so we don't have real world experience with distant learning in town, but they had a little head start.

[thinkxingu]

Fortunately Moultonborough moved to "blizzard bags" and students using iPods a few years back. My youngest is slated to graduate college and start teaching in May so we don't have real world experience with distant learning in town, but they had a little head start.I would think being prepared to discuss this event would be beneficial to your youngest during the interview process!

Flying, believe it or not, some of my highest achieving students are struggling just as much—I received an email from a brilliant future PA (William & Mary or BU bound) yesterday who thanked me for my virtual lesson as it's the "most normal she's felt in weeks."

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[TheProfessor]

+US becomes more self sufficient in manufacturing many things which...
+Creates more manufacturing jobs, which....
+Boosts the economy and tax revenues for infrastructure, social programs, and debt reduction.


Ain't gonna happen.

No matter what side you are on in the political spectrum. Manufacturing wants the least expensive labor possible. And that is not in the USA.
Those who own stocks - want the stock price higher - and dividends. With virtual no care where items are produced.

Do any reading here ever view the label on their clothing?
Korea, Indonesia, Bangladesh, China, and now Vietnam.

I seek out products Made in USA. But how many go out of their way to do this? Yes, some clothing and products are still made in USA.

Here are some tidbits.

Everything in the LL Bean catalog is made outside the USA. Everything in the LL Bean catalog is imported. The original rubber boots are still assembled in USA - from foreign parts. That's it for LL Bean. I'm old enough to remember that everything in the LL Bean catalog was made in USA.

New Balance has a real factory outlet in Lawrence, MA. And yes, a few of their sneakers are still made in Lawrence, MA. Made in USA.

A M Leonard still makes garden tools made in USA. Go to the local hardware store and you won't find any garden tools made in USA. Yet, one can still purchase all of your garden tools from a company such as A M Leonard.

Walmart. Box fans (square fans). I was in a Walmart a few times and viewed a pallet of box fans. All were made in China. But. The next month there was a pallet of box fans made in USA. Lasko brand box fans are made in USA. Amazingly the price for the China box fans and the Lasko made in USA box fans - was exactly the same. This was not a one shot deal. As I view the box fans over the years. Why doesn't Walmart purchase/sell all of the box fans that are made in USA? Walmart doesn't give a hoot about buying/selling items made in USA. Although Walmart had a multi-million advertising campaign - extolling the virtues of buying American. Next time anyone is in a Walmart store - go look at the box fans and view what county they are made in.

Number 10 white business envelopes. Walmart used to sell a box of 50 (now 40] of Mead - made in USA envelopes. Then Walmart briefly began selling number 10 white envelopes made in China. That didn't last long at Walmart as who wants to lick China glue? Anyone? So Walmart quickly switched to number 10 white envelope made in Mexico. I guess Mexico glue is better for the pallet than China glue. Yet visit any Dollar Tree store and Dollar Tree still sells the Mead - made in USA number 10 white envelopes. Why can't Walmart sell the Mead - made in USA white number 10 envelopes? Same price in both stores. And yes, some envelopes have a peal off self stickng strip.

I recently purchased a new snow blower/thrower. I sought out the brand with an engine made in USA. Sorry. All engines are now made in China or Thailand. No new snow blowers have engine made in USA.

I had the brake rotors (disks) replaced in my car and truck. No brand has rotors made in USA anymore. Can't get any. Made in China, Taiwan, or Mexico. Yes, there are some small companies that do make rotors in the USA - but all of those are for specialty use such as car racing. None for any car or pickup truck made in USA.

"Bring the jobs back" was/is he mantra. Yet few if any products have come back to the USA. I hear on the news that many of the ventilators are wait for it . . . made in China.

The list goes on. But enough for now.

How many take the time to actually seek out USA products?
Yet most will claim to want to "bring the jobs back".

Go figure !

Who wants to lick the glue on envelopes made in China?

[FlyingScot]

Ain't gonna happen.

No matter what side you are on in the political spectrum. Manufacturing wants the least expensive labor possible. And that is not in the USA.
Those who own stocks - want the stock price higher - and dividends. With virtual no care where items are produced.

Do any reading here ever view the label on their clothing?
Korea, Indonesia, Bangladesh, China, and now Vietnam.

I seek out products Made in USA. But how many go out of their way to do this? Yes, some clothing and products are still made in USA.



Great points. In addition to seeking out Made in the USA, though, we must be willing to pay a premium for domestic labor. How many of us are willing to pay 20, 30, 40% for goods made here?

[Hillcountry]

Great points. In addition to seeking out Made in the USA, though, we must be willing to pay a premium for domestic labor. How many of us are willing to pay 20, 30, 40% for goods made here?

I am. Damned right I am. Get the hell away from depending on the lying theiving, chinese.
Bring our damned production back to the USA at any cost.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Great points. In addition to seeking out Made in the USA, though, we must be willing to pay a premium for domestic labor. How many of us are willing to pay 20, 30, 40% for goods made here?

I imagine that many Americans , and I include myself, would be willing to pay more for goods produced here in the USA. Think of the horrible price we are now paying for our reliance on other countries, particularly China, to manufacture strategic items.

[Garcia]

Great points. In addition to seeking out Made in the USA, though, we must be willing to pay a premium for domestic labor. How many of us are willing to pay 20, 30, 40% for goods made here?

Sadly I think paying a premium for USA goods is a luxury not everyone can, or will, afford. It's the same thing with locally grown produce or locally raised meats; they cost more than what you buy at WalMart. And even, which I know is a controversial topic, paying a premium for clean energy - if polluting coal makes cheaper electricity than clean solar, not everyone can or will pay the higher price.

[Orion]

Great points. In addition to seeking out Made in the USA, though, we must be willing to pay a premium for domestic labor. How many of us are willing to pay 20, 30, 40% for goods made here?

Good points Professor, but I do believe the pendulum will swing. The manufacturers will seek to avoid risk and there will be a lot of risk going forward with regard to made in China. On top of that, there will be a larger amount of the population that will seek out "Made in USA" (I ALWAYS HAVE). At a minimum, there will be many trying to avoid "Made In China".

There is a lot of hidden cost associated with buying from the lowest cost source. I find it hard to believe that going forward, the US can't use technology to undercut manufacturing costs (with shipping) of of buying from Asia.

Lastly, I'm certain our President will provide incentives to bring jobs back to USA. Instead of a blind stimulus package, lets provide those incentives to budding manufacturers. This will have long-term benefits for us all.

[Susie Cougar]

TheProfessor, The only person that I ever remember that was happy that the glue on their envelopes was from China was George Costanza on Seinfeld.

[tbonies]

+US becomes more self sufficient in manufacturing many things which...
+Creates more manufacturing jobs, which....
+Boosts the economy and tax revenues for infrastructure, social programs, and debt reduction.
+We discover our families and the value of socialization.
+We are better prepared for future pandemics.
+We reduce the instances of other diseases through better sanitization awareness.
+We all become a bit more aware of our dependence on each other and the services provided by many unsung heroes.
+Just maybe, I Hope, we are all a bit more civilized.

All this sounds great, but for the first two to happen, will Americans truly be willing to pay more for goods and services? There is a reason that so much of it was shipped to places like China and India, and it wasn't simply for the fun of it.

[Trail Goer]

I think all dictators or want to be dictators start off by marginalizing the media. There is accurate news out there and sure sometimes you have to delve deeper into the story understand what is opinion versus fact. I think we all know Fox and MSNBC have a bias.

Personally, I like the Epoch Times, they seem to be the most level of all the media outlets.

[FlyingScot]

Sadly I think paying a premium for USA goods is a luxury not everyone can, or will, afford. It's the same thing with locally grown produce or locally raised meats; they cost more than what you buy at WalMart. And even, which I know is a controversial topic, paying a premium for clean energy - if polluting coal makes cheaper electricity than clean solar, not everyone can or will pay the higher price.

There's a big difference "can" and "will". If a person is struggling to get by, I'm happy for them to get a low price at WalMart. (Which, BTW, you may remember used to be heavily Made in the USA before becoming a major driver of jobs moving overseas).

But the "will" thing bothers me when those who can afford to pay more for locally sourced goods still place price as paramount. I think part of this is that WalMart, Amazon, and others have persuaded us that we are stupid or saps or getting ripped off if we shop anywhere else.

As others have noted, we are now paying the price for driving cost down as far as possible without concern for other important factors.

[Not to Worry]

Personally, I like the Epoch Times, they seem to be the most level of all the media outlets.

This is what wikipedia has to say.

"he Epoch Times is a multi-language newspaper[2] founded in 2000 by John Tang and a group of Chinese Americans associated with the Falun Gong spiritual movement.[3] Though the newspaper is known for general interest topics with a focus on news about China and its human rights issues, it has become known for its support of U.S. President Donald Trump and favorable coverage of far-right politicians in Europe; a 2019 report showed it to be the second-largest funder of pro-Trump Facebook advertising after the Trump campaign.[4][5][6][7][8][9][

10][11] The newspaper is part of the Epoch Media Group, which also operates New Tang Dynasty Television (NTD).[7] The group's news sites and YouTube channels have spread conspiracy theories such as QAnon and anti-vaccination propaganda.[7][12][13]"


Assuming your post was a joke?

[TheProfessor]

Personally, I like the Epoch Times, they seem to be the most level of all the media outlets.

They may claim in their Youtube ads to be level. They do have convincing YouTube ads.

As stated above, the Epoch Tiimes has an agenda. Very far from fair and balanced.

[ApS]

Personally, I like the Epoch Times, they seem to be the most level of all the media outlets.
...and founded by anti-Communists who have fled Communist China.
The Epoch Times has a circulation of 1,314,375. (Higher than the New York Times).

Recently, their Hong Kong printshop was invaded by arsonists late one night: a security video shows the burglars torching everything in the office. Nothing was actually taken.

Such is the life of "far-right" news. :rolleye2:

"Complex topics were also explained in a way far less arcane than other print publications. I also noticed that The Epoch Times takes on topics and controversies without the typical slant. American readers are thirsty for such options".
—Sharyl Attkisson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharyl_Attkisson) (citing Wikipedia)

[FlyingScot]

...and founded by anti-Communists who have fled Communist China.
The Epoch Times has a circulation of 1,314,375. (Higher than the New York Times).

Recently, their Hong Kong printshop was invaded by arsonists late one night: a security video shows the burglars torching everything in the office. Nothing was actually taken.

Such is the life of "far-right" news. :rolleye2:

Funny how we can't even get the facts straight when discussing Epoch Times as a news outlet. (Do you get your stats from them?) NY Times has over 4MM paid subscribers, mostly online. Epoch Times is a political organization, not journalism.

[Garcia]

There's a big difference "can" and "will". If a person is struggling to get by, I'm happy for them to get a low price at WalMart. (Which, BTW, you may remember used to be heavily Made in the USA before becoming a major driver of jobs moving overseas).

But the "will" thing bothers me when those who can afford to pay more for locally sourced goods still place price as paramount. I think part of this is that WalMart, Amazon, and others have persuaded us that we are stupid or saps or getting ripped off if we shop anywhere else.

As others have noted, we are now paying the price for driving cost down as far as possible without concern for other important factors.

We're in agreement. Many who want things manufactured here want lower prices more.

[TiltonBB]

President Trump’s top health advisers are developing medical criteria for safely reopening the U.S. economy in coming weeks should trends showing a crest in the coronavirus outbreak hold steady.

Deborah Birx, the immunologist who coordinates the White House virus task force, met into the night Tuesday with health experts, including Anthony Fauci, the nation’s top infectious disease expert, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Robert Redfield and Food and Drug Administration Commissioner Stephen Hahn.

Notably absent from the late-night discussion were economic and political advisers to the president, along with the leader of the coronavirus task force, Vice President Mike Pence, and his chief of staff, Marc Short.

Excluding the political and economic advisers was a deliberate signal that the White House would continue for now to prioritize health considerations over economic ones, according to three people familiar with the meeting who requested anonymity to discuss internal deliberations.

[thinkxingu]

This is an interesting graphic of CV-19 vs. other causes of death.

https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/1812248/

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[ApS]

This is an interesting graphic of CV-19 vs. other causes of death.
https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/1812248/
:) Cool graph that comports well with changing statistics-reporting:

"Deaths with COVID-19 are different from deaths from COVID-19."

An NYC doctor reported a 90 year-old COVID-19 DNR patient on a ventilator, who had meth in her system! :eek2:

Why ventilators aren't the whole answer:
https://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant/politics/covid-may-primarily-be-impacting-hemoglobin-and-why-that-matters/89441362/

[thinkxingu]

Cool graph that comports well with changing statistics-reporting:

An NYC doctor reported a 90 year-old COVID-19 DNR patient on a ventilator, who had meth in her system! :eek2:

Why ventilators aren't the whole answer:
https://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant/politics/covid-may-primarily-be-impacting-hemoglobin-and-why-that-matters/89441362/Agreed, but are there deaths caused by CV-19 that aren't being reported correctly? And, as I mentioned on the other thread, what percent is "the reporting" off? Even if off significantly, it's still alarming to be at/above the top of the list, especially with all the steps we've taken.

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[fatlazyless]

When does it end? How can it? ...... sounds like a song sung by Frank Sinatra.
Of course, Frank had that big talent of his to sing almost any line into a hit.

"When does it end? How can it?

You know the day will come when it will be over.

So we must be careful now not to catch it.

Unfortunate that a very few will get zapped by that coronavirus.

And become one of the few New Hampshire outliers.

So the time is here to be so very careful.

To keep your distance from those all around you.

That Lowe's announcement tells us to sneeze into our elbow.

Be extra polite to those all around you.

And give that coronavirus a whole lot of space.

Until the time will come when it will be over.

And people will say good riddance and stay away."

[TiltonBB]

Wuhan, the Chinese city at the epicenter of the coronavirus pandemic, lifted its lockdown on Wednesday and couples living there rushed to take advantage.

A local marriage application system run by Chinese tech platform Alipay saw a 300% increase in traffic, according to an official post on China's microblogging site Weibo, causing a temporary logjam.

Alipay also announced in its post that it offers a service to couples to search and see what baby names have already been used by other couples. Alipay is one of the most widely-used payment platforms in China, alongside WeChat.

I don't know. "Alipay" seems too close to alimony to be a marriage payment website. If that is how you start the process it seems like a bad omen!

[The Real BigGuy]

I would like to believe that jobs will come back but, alas, they won’t.

Reason 1: Americans have a notoriously short memory. Coronavirus, and any part in it played by China, will disappear from the majority’s mind within three months of the last surge in cases and deaths. Look back, it’s happened in virtually every other catastrophic incident in the last 50 years. We talk a good game during crisis but never follow thru. Heck, we already dismantled the protections put in place during the 2008/2009 financial crisis because it was costing big business & banks $$.

Reason 2: Americans value price/cost above all else. Why do you think Walmart, Amazon, etc. have become some of the biggest businesses in the Country? As Orion mentioned, remember Walmart’s push for its “made in USA” section in 2008? If people put their $ where their mouth was it would have succeeded. But made in USA can never compete ($ wise) with SE Asia when they have wages in the $1(s)/day range and we are looking at $15/hr range.

Reason 3: Orion mentions the government providing incentives to bring manufacturing jobs back to this country. We did that in the ill advised Trump tax cut. We allowed big business to bring billions of $ back to this country tax free and provided them a huge tax cut because, the president said they were going to bring manufacturing back to this country. Did they? No, the used the $ to buy back stock because in the long run it will increase their value.

As usual, just follow the $$$ and it will lead you to the end result.


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[garysanfran]

Wuhan, the Chinese city at the epicenter of the coronavirus pandemic, lifted its lockdown on Wednesday and couples living there rushed to take advantage.

A local marriage application system run by Chinese tech platform Alipay saw a 300% increase in traffic, according to an official post on China's microblogging site Weibo, causing a temporary logjam.

Alipay also announced in its post that it offers a service to couples to search and see what baby names have already been used by other couples. Alipay is one of the most widely-used payment platforms in China, alongside WeChat.

I don't know. "Alipay" seems too close to alimony to be a marriage payment website. If that is how you start the process it seems like a bad omen!

Today I noticed several radio ads promoting legal services for divorces. I assume both marriages and divorce numbers will go up.

[FlyingScot]

:) Cool graph that comports well with changing statistics-reporting:



An NYC doctor reported a 90 year-old COVID-19 DNR patient on a ventilator, who had meth in her system! :eek2:




Your meth anecdote is why we use statistics and empirical data rather than anecdotes. All of the other causes of death also include people on meth (and all sorts of other crap).

[Mr. V]

I'm not a conspiracy buff, but it is interesting to note that the Chinese National Biosafety Laboratory, part of the Wuhan Institute of Virology, is about ten miles from the market where it is claimed the virus first was found.

By report, the Lab had been experimenting with viruses from bats.

see: https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/theory-that-coronavirus-escaped-from-a-lab-lacks-evidence-67229

[ApS]

All of the other causes of death also include people on meth (and all sorts of other crap).
Thinkxingu's active graph suggests that COVID-19 is lately "being discovered", perhaps with a zeal to strengthen a political position.

(To augment voter fraud?) :rolleye1:

Your meth anecdote is why we use statistics and empirical data rather than anecdotes.
Well...you know what Mark Twain said about statistics. :rolleye2:

As for empirical data, that appears as the subtitle on a textbook cover—one of two textbooks I've authored:

:look:

[gillygirl]

Thinkxingu's active graph suggests that COVID-19 is lately "being discovered", perhaps with a zeal to strengthen a political position.



What about the phrase “novel coronavirus” do you not understand? In case you didn’t know, novel, as an adjective, means new.


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[ApS]

Agreed, but are there deaths caused by CV-19 that aren't being reported correctly? And, as I mentioned on the other thread, what percent is "the reporting" off? Even if off significantly, it's still alarming to be at/above the top of the list, especially with all the steps we've taken.

You'll notice the rapid flip in COVID-19, putting us "over the top". A good explanation follows.

An MD, and US Representative, explains the reason why:

"Senator Dr. Scott Jensen: Right now Medicare is determining that if you have a COVID-19 admission to the hospital you get $13,000. If that COVID-19 patient goes on a ventilator you get $39,000, three times as much. Nobody can tell me after 35 years in the world of medicine that sometimes those kinds of things impact on what we do."

[ApS]

Funny how we can't even get the facts straight when discussing Epoch Times as a news outlet. (Do you get your stats from them?) NY Times has over 4MM paid subscribers, mostly online. Epoch Times is a political organization, not journalism.
Epoch Times is an extensive paper Asian newspaper, and a trial subscription is available for $1.

Another is Asia Times, which I follow because, due International Time, their articles appear first, while I'm having my morning coffee. Australian news is prominent.

An expose appears as an Epoch Times video, explaining the COVID-19 timeline.
https://youtu.be/3bXWGxhd7ic

Interviewees include American scientists, with General Spalding prominent as an Intel agent, and a resident in China.

I've seen nothing as thoroughly professional, even among the UK media. It's an hour of real investigation!

[gillygirl]

Epoch Times is an extensive paper Asian newspaper, and a trial subscription is available for $1.





I've seen nothing as thoroughly professional, even among the UK media. It's an hour of real investigation!


From Media Bias/Fact Check
1581815819



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[FlyingScot]

Thinkxingu's active graph suggests that COVID-19 is lately "being discovered", perhaps with a zeal to strengthen a political position.



I take Think's graph as a way of explaining how covid has grown as an actual killer, not just an expected killer. You may remember (haha) a significant number of our penpals asserting that covid is not a big deal because current deaths were low relative to other causes of death at a particular point. As we can see from the graph, that is no longer the case

[Doobs41378]

I saw today that hospitals in NH are seeing a 40% reduction in cardiac arrest cases and they cannot figure out why.

[Trail Goer]

This is what wikipedia has to say.

"he Epoch Times is a multi-language newspaper[2] founded in 2000 by John Tang and a group of Chinese Americans associated with the Falun Gong spiritual movement.[3] Though the newspaper is known for general interest topics with a focus on news about China and its human rights issues, it has become known for its support of U.S. President Donald Trump and favorable coverage of far-right politicians in Europe; a 2019 report showed it to be the second-largest funder of pro-Trump Facebook advertising after the Trump campaign.[4][5][6][7][8][9][

10][11] The newspaper is part of the Epoch Media Group, which also operates New Tang Dynasty Television (NTD).[7] The group's news sites and YouTube channels have spread conspiracy theories such as QAnon and anti-vaccination propaganda.[7][12][13]"


Assuming your post was a joke?

Yes it was a joke, I don't even get their paper. I thought some of you would get a chuckle out of it. I only know about them because of their stupid adds.

[ApS]

I'm assured by my Primary Care Doctor that WebMD is a trustworthy site.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200403/fda-oks-1st-stem-cell-human-trial-for-covid-19

A US stem cell treatment is close to resolution.

[Newbiesaukee]

I'm assured by my Primary Care Doctor that WebMD is a trustworthy site.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200403/fda-oks-1st-stem-cell-human-trial-for-covid-19

A US stem cell treatment is close to resolution.

WebMD is a reliable site. A drug company received FDA a approval for an initial trial of stem cell therapy. There are hundreds of therapies being tried around the world. No strong reason not to try stem cell therapy but not much reason to expect it to work.

[FlyingScot]

I'm assured by my Primary Care Doctor that WebMD is a trustworthy site.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200403/fda-oks-1st-stem-cell-human-trial-for-covid-19

A US stem cell treatment is close to resolution.

Maxum may know the correct numbers, but the number of Phase I candidates that makes it to FDA approval is less than 10%

[MAXUM]

I don't have exact numbers on this - even if I did and could disclose them it would be from the context of the trials that are run by my employer which are a fraction of what drugs are currently under development at any time. In fact we specialize in the oncology space as a general rule. There is specific genetic experimentation going on right now in cancer treatments that may prove useful in many other areas including antivirals such as COVID. Those are actively being looked at.

That said, I do know that the entire process from start to finish is extremely long and drawn out, and the number of drugs that actually make it through the entire process is very low - I'd say less than 5% based on my observation. Thing is while so many may fail, coming out of those failures is new treatments that are tweaks or reformulations of a prior study. Most people don't realize that it takes a lot of time and expense to get drugs out there with relative confidence they are safe and behave as expected. We have some trials that are 15+ years in and still not approved. Most average about 10 years.

What does help ALOT is that we conduct trials all over the world and it is really helpful to do this work in countries where the regulations are far less stringent, as that data can be aggregated in and helps with the FDA approval process in the US.

As a general rule the FDA is a pain to deal with and arguably some aspects of approval to move a drug forward through the development process are overly cumbersome and frustrating to deal with at the same time there is a lot at stake considering people could and in some cases have died taking experimental drugs. How do you really weigh being overly cautious with providing a risky treatment that could save a life?

Just as a disclaimer I'm a systems guy not a doctor or scientist. The above information is based off conversations I've been privy to or just being part of the process in setting up or shutting down trial related studies or providing data to the FDA as a drug is tracking through the process. I am by no means an expert on this. I just know the regulations are insane, and not just the US either, the EU is even worse.

[ApS]

Yes it was a joke, I don't even get their paper. I thought some of you would get a chuckle out of it. I only know about them because of their stupid adds.
Harvard involved in virus research.

"The FBI complaint alleges that he had been secretly participating in China’s “Thousand Talents Plan” since 2011, paid some $600,000 a year plus expenses to open and operate a lab at the Wuhan University of Technology (yes, that Wuhan). We know that China contracts with American experts in this way in order to steal their research and gain commercial funds..."
--Epoch Times

[Mr. V]

Obviously THIS lady thinks the worst is over.

https://i.chzbgr.com/full/9470621184/hA23BE9A1

[FlyingScot]

Rapid testing is possible today. Here's an example from an apparently more advanced country with a sophisticated effective government:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-15/emirates-starts-rapid-testing-passengers-for-virus-before-flight

[VitaBene]

Rapid testing is possible today. Here's an example from an apparently more advanced country with a sophisticated effective government:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-15/emirates-starts-rapid-testing-passengers-for-virus-before-flight

I'm sorry but Emirates is an airline, not a country. Further, if you are calling any middle eastern country advanced or sophisticated, now your credibility is in question!

[ishoot308]

I'm sorry but Emirates is an airline, not a country. Further, if you are calling any middle eastern country advanced or sophisticated, now your credibility is in question!

OMG! That is too funny...

Hope all is well Vita!

Dan

[Newbiesaukee]

Rapid testing is possible today. Here's an example from an apparently more advanced country with a sophisticated effective government:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-15/emirates-starts-rapid-testing-passengers-for-virus-before-flight

As it is a blood test, this is looking for antibodies and can identify people who have been infected. It is also the test that many companies are developing but still has some problems technically.

Additionally, if the test shows the person has had Covid-19 antibodies it is still not known for certain if these antibodies actually do protect and if they do, we do not know how long the protection lasts.

BUT it is exactly the kind of test that should be perfected and can be helpful in opening up the country. We are not quite there yet with this antibody test.

[FlyingScot]

Dan My Friend (and Vita),

After our Honeymooners exchange I am surprised my humor is too dry for you. Of course I do not believe that there is an Arab country with a government that is as advanced or effective as our own.

But the 10 minute pre-boarding test is a damn good trick, and it is disappointing/sad that they beat us--American, United, FAA, TSA, CDC, etc--to the punch.

Don't ya think?

[ApS]

I'm sorry but Emirates is an airline, not a country. Further, if you are calling any middle eastern country advanced or sophisticated, now your credibility is in question!
Emirates is an airline, but the UAE is composed of seven Emirates, and is a country.
The seven Emirates derived their name from their seven rulers, called Emirs.

"The United Arab Emirates, sometimes simply called the Emirates, is a country in Western Asia at the northeast end of the Arabian Peninsula on the Persian Gulf, bordering Oman to the east and Saudi Arabia to the south and west, as well as sharing maritime borders with Qatar to the west and Iran to the north.

The sovereign constitutional monarchy is a federation of seven emirates consisting of Abu Dhabi, Ajman, Dubai, Fujairah, Ras Al Khaimah, Sharjah and Umm Al Quwain. Their boundaries are complex, with numerous enclaves within the various emirates. Each emirate is governed by a ruler; together, they jointly form the Federal Supreme Council. One of the rulers serves as the President of the United Arab Emirates. In 2013, the UAE's population was 9.2 million, of which 1.4 million are Emirati citizens and 7.8 million are expatriates."
—Wikipedia

The UAE, considering that they've pumped all of their oil, is surprisingly modern and built-up. A number of sport-racing events, mostly imported from Europe (boat/car), are conducted there, and if you want to go snow-skiing, there's a venue for that!

The ambition, cutting-edge technological standards and worldwide reach of Formula 1 goes hand in hand with Emirates’ vision and ambition.”
https://www.emirates.com/english/about-us/our-communities/sponsorship/motorsports/

Aside from their airline, another familiar "Emirates" image—capable of easily exceeding Lake Winnipesaukee's Speed Limit:
https://img.redbull.com/images/c_fill,g_auto,w_860,h_573/q_auto,f_auto/redbullcom/2017/06/12/28bf05e8-2f3e-44bf-96ec-bc11babbb64b/close-sailing-for-emirates-team-new-zealand-and-team-artemis.jpg

[fatlazyless]

Talking about the Emirates ..... the Emirates Airlines is a big sponsor for tennis

www.emirates.com/US/english/about-us/our-communities/sponsorship/tennis/

including the U S Tennis Open in NYC ...... that now has two large tennis

stadiums converted into a field hospital and food distribution to support victims

of the coronavirus in New York. So that Emirates Airlines sponsor money is now

going to help with the support effort in NYC.

[TheProfessor]

I'm sorry but Emirates is an airline, not a country. Further, if you are calling any middle eastern country advanced or sophisticated, now your credibility is in question!

They look pretty advanced to me.
If they can do why can't our "advanced" country do it?


Rapid testing is possible today. Here's an example from an apparently more advanced country with a sophisticated effective government:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-15/emirates-starts-rapid-testing-passengers-for-virus-before-flight

[ishoot308]

They look pretty advanced to me.
If they can do why can't our "advanced" country do it?

I have to ask...who is "they"??

[VitaBene]

They look pretty advanced to me.
If they can do why can't our "advanced" country do it?

Please see response #93 above.

Testing and vaccines will be a part of our foreseeable lives but when and how are almost 7,000,000,000 people going to be tested or inoculated?

Advanced? No, they have lots of money and can buy technology and people.

[thinkxingu]

NH just went to remote learning for the rest of the school year. I'm guessing MA will announce tomorrow or in the next week.

I'm hoping we see that the reason for this is purely numbers/proximity and that we start to move towards opening up with clear distancing/demographic guidelines.

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[WinnisquamZ]

Must add, by keeping the schools closed many small businesses have lost their employees till fall. One more kick to the groin for the small business owners in NH. Now I must tell you I agree with his decision. Many logical headaches for 6 weeks if opened


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[thinkxingu]

Must add, by keeping the schools closed many small businesses have lost their employees till fall. One more kick to the groin for the small business owners in NH. Now I must tell you I agree with his decision. Many logical headaches for 6 weeks if opened


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)I'm not following you—almost all of my seniors are working because they're "essential": grocery stores, elderly homes, takeout restaurants. Wouldn't there be an influx of available local kids?

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[fatlazyless]

Obesity Linked to Severe Coronavirus Disease, Especially for Younger Patients by Roni Caryn Rabin, NY Times, Friday, April 17, 2020

No subscription needed ..... just google first six words in title ..... talks about over weight body and the virus, especially for men. ..... :eek:

[ApS]

They look pretty advanced to me.
If they can do why can't our "advanced" country do it?

The U.S. Army is using a device that looks like a "Tricorder" with an antenna. No PPE in sight.

[ApS]

Yes it was a joke, I don't even get their paper. I thought some of you would get a chuckle out of it. I only know about them because of their stupid adds.
Editors of The Epoch Times read Chinese Communist Party newspapers, and listen to CCP propaganda. These are skills for which Americans aren't ready.

[thinkxingu]

The latest data suggests that NH is already past peak but that MA still has time (image attached).

I've seen a lot of references to how opening up too quickly would be like "cutting the parachute cord early because it's slowed us down."

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I think there's a balance to be struck—Dan Crenshaw, Texas representative, discussed how this doesn't have to be a bipolar approach, it can have nuance.

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/coronavirus/when-will-the-coronavirus-peak-hit-your-state/2108705/?amp

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[rscalzo]

From today's New York Times:

First mistake. The Times and Post have gone overboard to report anything they can spin as negative.

[jazzman]

Roadblock time on the NH Mass border? I guess it's not constitutional, but it hasn't stopped other states from doing it. It might save some of the NH based hotels and restaurants. I don't think it was an accident that NH restaurants were closed the day before St Patrick's Day with all the bars already closed in Mass.

I haven't got a clue what the summer will bring. Will everyone just want to escape from Mass, Conn, NY, NJ or will everyone be afraid to go on vacation? Maybe the number of cases will significantly decline when it gets warm.

I'm certainly having 2nd thoughts about my summer job entertaining vacationers at this point.

[The Real BigGuy]

Roadblock time on the NH Mass border?.

I’m ok with that as long as MA can put roadblocks to stop NH people from coming in to work or use our hospital facilities🤨


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[WinnisquamZ]

Stopped by HD in Tilton this afternoon, parking lot was full. Less then half of the people wearing masks, that includes employees! It appears the gig is up. Weather is looking better and the revolution has begun.


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[kawishiwi]

Stopped by HD in Tilton this afternoon, parking lot was full. Less then half of the people wearing masks, that includes employees! It appears the gig is up. Weather is looking better and the revolution has begun.


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A legion of idiots spreading random disease & death lotto tickets into the community. "Live Free and Die"?

I assert my right to be deadly irresponsible cus "FREEDOM"?

[WinnisquamZ]

A legion of idiots spreading random disease & death lotto tickets into the community. "Live Free and Die"?

I assert my right to be deadly irresponsible cus "FREEDOM"?

Your ignorance is on display for all to read. Your assumption is they are sick. What if they are not and tested as much? What if the others are at low risk. What if those at high risk are protecting themselves and understand the others have a constitutional right to go about their day as they wish.


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[FlyingScot]

Your ignorance is on display for all to read. Your assumption is they are sick. What if they are not and tested as much? What if the others are at low risk. What if those at high risk are protecting themselves and understand the others have a constitutional right to go about their day as they wish.


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It's amazing how some people can watch the same movie again and again, and still expect a different ending. Low risk people expressed their constitutional rights magnificently at Mardi Gras, Florida Spring Break, and Liberty University.

Maybe next time Darth won't be Luke's father...

[jeffatsquam]

Your ignorance is on display for all to read. Your assumption is they are sick. What if they are not and tested as much? What if the others are at low risk. What if those at high risk are protecting themselves and understand the others have a constitutional right to go about their day as they wish.


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My assumption is that less than 1% of your full parking lot at HD in Tilton have tested negative. I know of no one that has had a test. But I don't get out much lately

[WinnisquamZ]

Neither do I. Or know of someone that has been sick. I do know many that have lost their job or have had hours cut. Those that are still collecting a weekly paycheck seem to want to continue this isolation. Some have started to refer to this event as a “white collar” isolation. It’s the blue collar workers that are risking sickness and health keeping them feed. Terrible


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[kawishiwi]

Your ignorance is on display for all to read. Your assumption is they are sick. What if they are not and tested as much? What if the others are at low risk. What if those at high risk are protecting themselves and understand the others have a constitutional right to go about their day as they wish.


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Me thinks the ignorance is all yours.

[Mr. V]

Me thinks the ignorance is all yours.

Check the message on the sign held by the flag festooned guy in the center of the photo.

"Give me liberty, or give me covid-19."

Actually, it should read "Give me liberty AND give me covid-19."

Liberty helps to cause it; sheltering helps to prevent it.

Just sayin.'

https://s.abcnews.com/images/US/protest-1-ap-er-200419_hpMain_16x9_992.jpg

[Flylady]

Neither do I. Or know of someone that has been sick. I do know many that have lost their job or have had hours cut. Those that are still collecting a weekly paycheck seem to want to continue this isolation. Some have started to refer to this event as a “white collar” isolation. It’s the blue collar workers that are risking sickness and health keeping them feed. Terrible


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You may not today, but without appropriate precautions, you most likely will know several within the coming month. The biggest risks to the population are those who do not take it seriously.

[WinnisquamZ]

You may not today, but without appropriate precautions, you most likely will know several within the coming month. The biggest risks to the population are those who do not take it seriously.



The biggest risk to the population has passed. Curves have began to flatten for a week. Time to begin repairing the damage


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[ApS]

The biggest risk to the population has passed. Curves have began to flatten for a week. Time to begin repairing the damage.

Dr. Knut Wittkowski agrees:

https://youtu.be/lGC5sGdz4kg

Note within a few minutes, he states, "I don't receive government checks".
:look:

[Chris M]

I find it sad how many people so strongly advocate safety over freedom.

I get it, folks are scared, and many people look to government like a toddler looks to a parent.

But I have news for you... the state didn't come into existence to keep us safe - it came into existence to keep us free.

You don't get to use every scary situation to use the apparatus to club the rest of us and expect us all to perpetually grin and bear it. Enough is enough.

[Not to Worry]

The biggest risk to the population has passed. Curves have began to flatten for a week. Time to begin repairing the damage


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Just curious where did you get that bit of fake news? CDC...I do not think so. The worst is most likely yet to come.

[rsmlp]

The biggest risk to the population has passed. Curves have began to flatten for a week. Time to begin repairing the damage

New high in the number of US deaths yesterday. Risk is still plentiful. Moreover, MA the new "hotspot" in the US. It would belie credulity to think this summer will not be super risky.

[FlyingScot]

I find it sad how many people so strongly advocate safety over freedom.

I get it, folks are scared, and many people look to government like a toddler looks to a parent.

But I have news for you... the state didn't come into existence to keep us safe - it came into existence to keep us free.

You don't get to use every scary situation to use the apparatus to club the rest of us and expect us all to perpetually grin and bear it. Enough is enough.

Safety vs freedom is a false choice--it is not either/or--in a complex public health crisis we should look to the government to do both. So far, our local Governors Sununu and Baker seem to be doing a good job with the balance.

[Mr. V]

Only a fool walks into a buzzsaw, just as only a fool refuses to comply with such common sense actions as social distancing in order to protect themselves and others from a clear and present danger.

I'm sure the gov't wouldn't need to shut down the economy if people would all voluntarily adopt social distancing, but such a unified response would never happen voluntarily: alas, "We've met the enemy, and it is us."

It takes a stern captain to pilot a ship of fools through treacherous shoals.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Safety vs freedom is a false choice--it is not either/or--in a complex public health crisis we should look to the government to do both. So far, our local Governors Sununu and Baker seem to be doing a good job with the balance.

Safety and freedom can coexist. These anti-Constitution, strongarm tactics imposed by out of control politicians (and carried out by police) have no basis in "safety" whatsoever. Just ask this poor mother:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-idaho-woman-arrested-closed-playground-protests-meridian-city-hall/

[Mr. V]

These anti-Constitution, strongarm tactics imposed by out of control politicians (and carried out by police) have no basis in "safety" whatsoever. Just ask this poor mother:

Baloney.

She's a scofflaw, throw the book at her.

[Roy_Hobbs]

Against all of my better judgement I’m actually going to comment, knowing full well it won’t change anyone’s mind. Regarding that article posted above, (excerpt below) I hope those who use the “this wouldn’t have been an issue if they would have just listened to the police” argument do so consistently. It would not surprise me if some people (and this is NOT directed at you Seaplane Pilot, I don’t pretend to know enough about you to make this statement) use that argument in other situations but not in this case.

From the article: “Police said they made several attempts to get Brady to follow the rules and she refused to comply.”

Regardless, Here’s to the warm summer days to come, regardless of when, where or to what degree we are able to enjoy them!


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[Chris M]

Liberty helps to cause it; sheltering helps to prevent it.

Liberty is freedom of choice. Like my body, my choice. Free to choose sheltering in place. Freedom to choose isn't the enemy.

The enemy is nominds like you who don't respect freedom of choice.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Liberty is freedom of choice. Like my body, my choice. Free to choose sheltering in place. Freedom to choose isn't the enemy.

The enemy is nominds like you who don't respect freedom of choice.

Your response is pretty harsh. How about disagreeing without being disagreeable? Cutting down on snarky comments would be a move in the right direction.

[Susie Cougar]

I just read that the Sandwich Fair has been canceled for 2020! This is not until Columbus weekend in October!

[AC2717]

I just read that the Sandwich Fair has been canceled for 2020! This is not until Columbus weekend in October!

ridiculous, and this is getting way out of hand. It is now an excuse maker which has been a concern for a while.

[Mr. V]

Liberty is freedom of choice. Like my body, my choice. Free to choose sheltering in place. Freedom to choose isn't the enemy. The enemy is nominds like you who don't respect freedom of choice.

In a way the current situation is similar to times when our great nation was on a wartime footing: think WWII, for example.

The gov't enacted many draconian laws which severely impacted ones liberty interests, and it was deemed appropriate by the courts and the general public due to the perceived consequences of not adopting such harsh laws.

We interred Japanese nationals and seized their property (didn't do it to German nationalss though; gee, I wonder why not?).

More to the point we adopted very strict rationing: the law said no matter how much money you had, no matter what your need, this is all you got.

Many people felt that the rationing laws shouldn't and didn't apply to them, and they turned to the black market, which undermined the national effort.

[Outdoorsman]

I just read that the Sandwich Fair has been canceled for 2020! This is not until Columbus weekend in October!

Concerns about the coronavirus pandemic have led organizers to cancel this year’s Stratham, Lancaster, Sandwich and Cheshire fairs.

https://www.unionleader.com/news/health/coronavirus/4-nh-fairs-cancel-citing-coronavirus-concerns/article_ac137807-bfc9-5644-9065-d531d7c6fe52.html?block_id=664693

[4 for Boating]

Seems like we are starting to find out that people were infected weeks before the alarm went off and the first hospital trigger. The latest estimates (Reported by NBC New York yesterday) for New York who is doing antibody testing now is that the death rate may be closer to .5. (Yes, worse than the flu - but one can only hope the number is closer to .5 than what has been reported in the past)

Going to be a lot of looking back on this down the road regarding what the best steps should have been. A lot easier to do after the fact we all know that.

One thing that jumps out to me is the sad aspect around nursing homes and how disproportionally they have been hit with the most susceptible population. One quarter of the deaths in NY have been at such institutions. Very, very sad.

[The Real BigGuy]

Your response is pretty harsh. How about disagreeing without being disagreeable? Cutting down on snarky comments would be a move in the right direction.

I think some people don’t understand that their freedom of choice ends where it starts to effect others freedom to live safely. Kind of like someone choosing to drive down the road at 100 mph.[emoji107]


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[FlyingScot]

Seems like we are starting to find out that people were infected weeks before the alarm went off and the first hospital trigger. The latest estimates (Reported by NBC New York yesterday) for New York who is doing antibody testing now is that the death rate may be closer to .5. (Yes, worse than the flu - but one can only hope the number is closer to .5 than what has been reported in the past)

Going to be a lot of looking back on this down the road regarding what the best steps should have been. A lot easier to do after the fact we all know that.

One thing that jumps out to me is the sad aspect around nursing homes and how disproportionally they have been hit with the most susceptible population. One quarter of the deaths in NY have been at such institutions. Very, very sad.

Today's Globe reported 49 people dead of covid in a single nursing home a couple of miles from my house. Their website gives total capacity as 135 beds. It's just horrific.

[ApS]

California doctors pressured to list deaths as COVID-19:

https://youtu.be/D5GDPCUUBEE

[Major]

From a dentist friend of mine -

More people are going to suffer the longer this shutdown is enforced than from the disease itself. Never in the history of this country have we quarantined healthy people. A big part of my job is about infection control and the longer we are quarantined the worse our immune systems are going to get and more people are going to get critically ill from this disease. What Fauci and the WHO are doing is going against most of what I was taught in dental school. We cannot stay quarantined until a vaccine, that could take years.


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[Not to Worry]

From a dentist friend of mine -

More people are going to suffer the longer this shutdown is enforced than from the disease itself. Never in the history of this country have we quarantined healthy people. A big part of my job is about infection control and the longer we are quarantined the worse our immune systems are going to get and more people are going to get critically ill from this disease. What Fauci and the WHO are doing is going against most of what I was taught in dental school. We cannot stay quarantined until a vaccine, that could take years.


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Why would our immune systems get worse? That makes no sense whatsoever. You are right about one thing tough...people are going get critically ill if we reopen carelessly.

Also I would find a new dentist.

[FlyingScot]

From a dentist friend of mine -

More people are going to suffer the longer this shutdown is enforced than from the disease itself. Never in the history of this country have we quarantined healthy people. A big part of my job is about infection control and the longer we are quarantined the worse our immune systems are going to get and more people are going to get critically ill from this disease. What Fauci and the WHO are doing is going against most of what I was taught in dental school. We cannot stay quarantined until a vaccine, that could take years.


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It always cracks me up when we rely upon "experts" in the wrong field--like dentists who are also immunologists/epidemiologists.

One of my crowns fell out a few weeks ago. When I called my dentist, she said she was not allowed to use a drill because the drilling aerosolizes liquid in the mouth, creating micro particles that are especially difficult to keep contained--they hang in the air. You might ask your dentist about that

[Major]

He’s a very smart guy who I trust implicitly, more than a career hack like Dr Fauci.

True story, I had a Navy dentist friend who reattached an amputated arm on a destroyer. He was the only doctor on board so he had to do it. Never underestimate the medical training of a dentist.

Fauci was the one telling us early on that the Chinese Coronavirus was not a big deal. Come to think about it, he was right! #overblown


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[Mr. V]

Never in the history of this country have we quarantined healthy people.

Major, you portray yourself as a conservative who welcomes debate.

How do you feel about fact checking?

Your "dentist friend" should stick to filling cavities and not trying to revise American history: he and you are flat WRONG to claim as you have above.

We HAVE quarantined healthy people: we did it in 1918 to help combat the influenza pandemic sweeping the world at that time.

see: https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2020/03/coronavirus-loneliness-and-mistrust-1918-flu-pandemic-quarantine/609163/

Now I realize facts have a habit of getting the way of closely held beliefs, but for those who use their brains as a filter they can be illuminating.

[Major]

It always cracks me up when we rely upon "experts" in the wrong field--like dentists who are also immunologists/epidemiologists.

One of my crowns fell out a few weeks ago. When I called my dentist, she said she was not allowed to use a drill because the drilling aerosolizes liquid in the mouth, creating micro particles that are especially difficult to keep contained--they hang in the air. You might ask your dentist about that


I lost part of a tooth about three weeks ago, and my dentist (different from my friend dentist) drilled (smoothed our the surface) before applying a temporary patch.


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[Biggd]

It's too bad that this whole thread has been infected by a virus.:(

[Sue Doe-Nym]

He’s a very smart guy who I trust implicitly, more than a career hack like Dr Fauci.

True story, I had a Navy dentist friend who reattached an amputated arm on a destroyer. He was the only doctor on board so he had to do it. Never underestimate the medical training of a dentist.

Fauci was the one telling us early on that the Chinese Coronavirus was not a big deal. Come to think about it, he was right! #overblown


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Oh my! That’s amazing! I never knew that destroyers had arms! 🙄

[FlyingScot]

He’s a very smart guy who I trust implicitly, more than a career hack like Dr Fauci.


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You trust your dentist who's not even your actual dentist more than Dr Fauci? I hope you never need a doctor.

Fauci has made gigantic contributions to medicine having nothing to do with his also extraordinary career in management. For those with an interest in real science and real medicine, here's his bio:

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/about/anthony-s-fauci-md-bio

[Major]

I don’t trust government bureaucrat hacks whose best interest is to promote their own agendas. Where were you when the esteemed doctor said there is nothing to worry about? And yes, I trust this dentist implicitly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bigstan]

Oh my! That’s amazing! I never knew that destroyers had arms! 🙄

If you spend a millisecond thinking about what you just responded to you realize how not humorous it is..

[Sue Doe-Nym]

If you spend a millisecond thinking about what you just responded to you realize how not humorous it is..

Big Stan, you need to lighten up, lad! We are all very stressed right now. I would NEVER make a joke about a person’s infirmity, but Major’s sentence structure (did the destroyer really have an amputated arm?) made my husband and me laugh hysterically. I think that most people would take my comment in the proper vein. Please relax.

[Bigstan]

Big Stan, you need to lighten up, lad! We are all very stressed right now. I would NEVER make a joke about a person’s infirmity, but Major’s sentence structure (did the destroyer really have an amputated arm?) made my husband and me laugh hysterically. I think that most people would take my comment in the proper vein. Please relax.

I'm not stressed at all actually, I still fail to see the reason for all the hoopla these days, and yes I know that puts me in the minority.

It's just that I actually took the post as it was very obviously intended, as in he was on a destroyer while this occurred. If you don't know Destroyers don't get real doctors, they get pharmacist mates and maybe a visiting dentist now and again. All have cross training, and cover as needed. And if someone loses a limb or is otherwise wounded everyone jumps in, in this case I imagine to stabilize and get a couple major arteries flowing so said limb can be saved by more competent folks.

Sorry if you think that's a joke and I don't, different paths in life I guess.

[Barney Bear]

Destroyers are well-armed. They even carry depth charges. :D

[thinkxingu]

Back to the OP: this is a pretty good summary of where we are and need to go. The assertion is that we need to move forward getting back to "normal," but the next year (at least) will need to be smart and driven by data: https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertpearl/2020/04/21/3-coronavirus-facts/

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[Major]

Major, you portray yourself as a conservative who welcomes debate.

How do you feel about fact checking?

Your "dentist friend" should stick to filling cavities and not trying to revise American history: he and you are flat WRONG to claim as you have above.

We HAVE quarantined healthy people: we did it in 1918 to help combat the influenza pandemic sweeping the world at that time.

see: https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2020/03/coronavirus-loneliness-and-mistrust-1918-flu-pandemic-quarantine/609163/

Now I realize facts have a habit of getting the way of closely held beliefs, but for those who use their brains as a filter they can be illuminating.

I should modify the statement to be in my lifetime. I am not sure what was done in 1918. Honestly, I haven't read much about it. However, since then, we have had very serious epidemics like small pox, polio, MERS, H1N1, etc., and have never shut down the economy. I don't feel too bad if you have to go back to 1918 for an example. If we quarantined healthy people back then, I stand corrected.

[ApS]

Back to the OP: this is a pretty good summary of where we are and need to go. The assertion is that we need to move forward getting back to "normal," but the next year (at least) will need to be smart and driven by data: https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertpearl/2020/04/21/3-coronavirus-facts/

The author wishes the US to return to full strength slowly.

He's also published in Forbes, which is Chinese majority-owned.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-28380634

[Lakegeezer]

A major problem with opening things up now is the need to respect the medical staff. Without a supply of proper protection equipment and proven ways to treat the staff that get infected, they are acting as heroes. People on the front lines have repeatedly asked that people avoid getting sick so that they can minimize their personal risk. To open up now is to treat these heroes with disrespect. How can you ask someone to risk their life because you assumed the virus wouldn't hit you hard, so mingled with crowds and caught it bad. Could you blame the staff if they all called in sick during a non-essential driven surge of severe cases?

Once protective equipment is readily available (any day now?) and catching this novel virus has lower risks (many trials in progress), opening up and letting herd immunity build is a viable strategy, especially for those that don't come in contact with people at risk. People are still going to die from this virus, but we can't continue to ask the medical staff to be among them without sharing the pain.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

A major problem with opening things up now is the need to respect the medical staff. Without a supply of proper protection equipment and proven ways to treat the staff that get infected, they are acting as heroes. People on the front lines have repeatedly asked that people avoid getting sick so that they can minimize their personal risk. To open up now is to treat these heroes with disrespect. How can you ask someone to risk their life because you assumed the virus wouldn't hit you hard, so mingled with crowds and caught it bad. Could you blame the staff if they all called in sick during a non-essential driven surge of severe cases?

Once protective equipment is readily available (any day now?) and catching this novel virus has lower risks (many trials in progress), opening up and letting herd immunity build is a viable strategy, especially for those that don't come in contact with people at risk. People are still going to die from this virus, but we can't continue to ask the medical staff to be among them without sharing the pain.

Lakegeezer, you make some very valid points, and you made them without any political asides....thank you for that. I wish we had the perfect answer: protecting the medical personnel involved in this pandemic, treating the victims of this sometimes-devastating illness, and doing all this while protecting the most vulnerable in our society....all this while keeping most of the workplace in force! What an unbelievable goal! There’s no perfect solution, or so it seems. I share the views many of us have....that we can get a grip on what needs to be done....testing, social distancing, quarantine when indicated, and an eventual vaccine. Please, please, please let people get back to their lives and livelihoods soon before the damage is irreparable. Last thing: we are all responsible for our personal well-being, so those who are most vulnerable need to take extra precautions.
Sorry, my index finger wouldn’t let me stop writing this. Be forgiving.

[Newbiesaukee]

A major problem with opening things up now is the need to respect the medical staff. Without a supply of proper protection equipment and proven ways to treat the staff that get infected, they are acting as heroes. People on the front lines have repeatedly asked that people avoid getting sick so that they can minimize their personal risk. To open up now is to treat these heroes with disrespect. How can you ask someone to risk their life because you assumed the virus wouldn't hit you hard, so mingled with crowds and caught it bad. Could you blame the staff if they all called in sick during a non-essential driven surge of severe cases?

Once protective equipment is readily available (any day now?) and catching this novel virus has lower risks (many trials in progress), opening up and letting herd immunity build is a viable strategy, especially for those that don't come in contact with people at risk. People are still going to die from this virus, but we can't continue to ask the medical staff to be among them without sharing the pain.

Totally agree with you with one caution. Herd immunity only works if the antibodies formed after infection actually do protect against reinfection. And if they do protect, how long will they protect.....three weeks, three years, forever?? And the same answers, among others, need to be answered before any vaccine is used for everyone.

No one really yet knows the answer and it is vital information as we move forward.

[VitaBene]

Totally agree with you with one caution. Herd immunity only works if the antibodies formed after infection actually do protect against reinfection. And if they do protect, how long will they protect.....three weeks, three years, forever?? And the same answers, among others, need to be answered before any vaccine is used for everyone.

No one really yet knows the answer and it is vital information as we move forward.

Dr, if it doesn't aren't we in big trouble? I know the efficacy of the flu vaccine is limited due to not knowing strains. Would this be opposite or will CV-19 morph?

[Mr. V]

https://images.craigslist.org/00404_fKKRoEvdUN0_600x450.jpg

[Not to Worry]

Good read about Sweden.



"The death rate in Sweden has now risen significantly higher than many other countries in Europe, reaching more than 21 per 100,000 people, according to figures from Johns Hopkins University, controlled for population."
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/28/europe/sweden-coronavirus-lockdown-strategy-intl/index.html

[Paugus Bay Resident]

Some very good points in here

After listening to some pretty harsh comments & arguing over reopening or completely shutting down for another two weeks, someone in their right mind wrote this.

Don’t know who wrote it, but it’s spot on.

Perspective:

WE ARE NOT IN THE SAME BOAT ...
I heard that we are all in the same boat, but it's not like that. We are in the same storm, but not in the same boat. Your ship could be shipwrecked and mine might not be. Or vice versa.

For some, quarantine is optimal. A moment of reflection, of re-connection, easy in flip flops, with a cocktail or coffee. For others, this is a desperate financial & family crisis.

For some that live alone they're facing endless loneliness. While for others it is peace, rest & time with their mother, father, sons & daughters.

With the $600 weekly increase in unemployment some are bringing in more money to their households than they were working. Others are working more hours for less money due to pay cuts or loss in sales.

Some families of 4 just received $3400 from the stimulus while other families of 4 saw $0.

Some were concerned about getting a certain candy for Easter while others were concerned if there would be enough bread, milk and eggs for the weekend.

Some want to go back to work because they don't qualify for unemployment and are running out of money. Others want to kill those who break the quarantine.

Some are home spending 2-3 hours/day helping their child with online schooling while others are spending 2-3 hours/day to educate their children on top of a 10-12 hour workday.

Some have experienced the near death of the virus, some have already lost someone from it and some are not sure if their loved ones are going to make it. Others don't believe this is a big deal.

Some have faith in God and expect miracles during this 2020. Others say the worst is yet to come.

So, friends, we are not in the same boat. We are going through a time when our perceptions and needs are completely different.

Each of us will emerge, in our own way, from this storm. It is very important to see beyond what is seen at first glance. Not just looking, actually seeing.

We are all on different ships during this storm experiencing a very different journey.

Realize that and be kind.

Unknown author

[WinnisquamZ]

I believe this year in NH we are going to have one hell of a Forth of July celebration!
Let’s all take a few minutes and listen to a great President tell us how we must fight to survive

https://youtu.be/3_QSJyJaeD4


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[ApS]

Korean study showed "re-infection" indicators were caused by fragments of Wuhan coronavirus.

https://m-en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20200429007051320

[Trail Goer]

I don’t trust government bureaucrat hacks whose best interest is to promote their own agendas. Where were you when the esteemed doctor said there is nothing to worry about? And yes, I trust this dentist implicitly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What's his agenda? Inquiring minds would like to know.

[Biggd]

What's his agenda? Inquiring minds would like to know.His agenda is to make sure as few people die from this as possible. Shame on him! :rolleye1:

[Not to Worry]

Hoping by the time the second wave comes along we have some form of treatment.

"By the end of the coronavirus’s “first wave” this summer, America will likely have buried close to 100,000 victims of the disease, with as many as 9 million people having become infected, according to Alessandro Vespignani, the director of the Network Science Institute at Northeastern University. The elite research lab, which has gained international notice for its pandemic modeling, also concluded that at least 80,000 to 90,000 Americans will be dead of coronavirus complications by mid-May. "

https://news.yahoo.com/top-coronavirus-model-predicts-100000-dead-by-the-end-of-the-pandemics-first-wave-this-summer-232144312.html

[ApS]

His agenda is to make sure as few people die from this as possible. Shame on him! :rolleye1:
If you mean Dr. Fauci, he backed the controversial Wuhan lab with millions of US dollars to conduct risky coronavirus research.

https://www.newsweek.com/dr-fauci-backed-controversial-wuhan-lab-millions-us-dollars-risky-coronavirus-research-1500741

[Biggd]

If you mean Dr. Fauci, he backed the controversial Wuhan lab with millions of US dollars to conduct risky coronavirus research.

https://www.newsweek.com/dr-fauci-backed-controversial-wuhan-lab-millions-us-dollars-risky-coronavirus-research-1500741With all the searches you do your screen must light up every morning with conservative propaganda. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Top-Water]

With all the searches you do your screen must light up every morning with conservative propaganda. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

I"m basicly conservative by nature, not afraid to admit it. But that last post made me laugh. This whole thread has gotten insane.
.

[Glendale Deli Boy]

I"m basicly conservative by nature, not afraid to admit it. But that last post made me laugh. This whole thread has gotten insane.
.

Agree. Me thinks there are many Pizzagate believers on this board.

[gravy boat]

From Union Leader and NHBR:


CONCORD — Requiring hairstylists and their customers to wear masks, quarantining clothes after they’re tried on and maintaining existing precautions are expected in the plan Gov. Chris Sununu will present Friday to reopen the state’s businesses in stages while extending the stay-at-home order.
Sununu reviewed guidelines for reopening a broad range of businesses, including restaurants, retail stores, state parks, golf courses, campgrounds and hair salons as he put the finishing touches on the “flex open” plan.
With the changes, Sununu is expected to extend the stay-at-home order set to expire May 4.
The Governor’s Reopening Task Force late Thursday completed more than 12 hours of drafting, discussing and adopting proposals for specific industries.
They also adopted universal guidelines for all New Hampshire employers and employees to prevent the spread of COVID-19.
Businesses will be urged to let employees continue to work from home as much as practical, to screen them before they enter the workplace and to have them wear face coverings “while at work and in public.”
D.J. Bettencourt, Sununu’s policy director, said Friday’s announcement will not include a date for reopening Seacoast and state park beaches.
“This is going to be the subject of long-term discussion,” he said.
“Inevitably whatever we do, we will not make 100% of the folks in our state happy, but what we are trying to do is strike the right balance so our citizens are healthy and safe and we are getting our economy moving again,” Bettencourt said.
State Rep. Jeff Salloway, D-Lee, said the task force’s next job will be to create standards to react quickly to a resurgence of the virus.
“We are dealing with wave one of this outbreak,” Salloway said. “There is likely to be a wave two and we face the possibility next fall of a wave three. ”
Haircuts head to top
During two hours of public comment Thursday, licensed cosmetologists dominated the discussion. Most urged Sununu to go beyond the task force’s recommendation to restrict salons to haircuts and routine dying of hair roots.
Janelle Burris, who runs Janelle’s Modern Beauty Salon in Concord, said 75% of her business is custom hair and other treatments such as waxing.
“I feel like those restrictions are only going to benefit big corporate places like Supercuts. It makes me afraid small businesses like myself won’t be able to open back up,” Burris said.
But a commenter named Jenny, who runs a salon out of the bottom floor of her home, said she is worried about opening now.
“I don’t feel salons have to be part of phase one. I have tried to get sanitation materials and not had much success,” Jenny said.
Under the task force’s recommendation, waxing, nail work and tanning would not be permitted.
“It is better we start small and let’s see how it works. We felt like this was a good place to start,” said state Sen. Sharon Carson, R-Londonderry, who led the group working on that sector.
Salon seating would be limited to maintain social distancing, and both the hairstylist and the customer must wear face coverings.
Greg Stone urged Sununu to reopen as much of the economy as possible and balance public health with business health.
“You seem to say nothing is as important as saving lives,” Stone said, addressing the governor with his remarks. “I believe saving our residents and businesses’ economic lives are paramount. I believe they are entwined.
“If our economy is not open very soon, we will face economic and employment challenges the likes of which we have not seen.”
Restaurants and hotels
The guidelines call for restaurants to expand from delivery and curbside pickup in four steps.
The first phase would allow sit-down dining on existing patios, sidewalks or parking spaces close to the business where it can be done safely. Tables of up to six patrons would be permitted.
The second phase would allow inside dining of groups up to 10 people at tables at least six feet apart.
Customers in bars would be spaced at least six feet apart. Catering would be open for parties up to 50 with tables of 10.
At the time of the second phase, hotels could open to the public. Pools and exercise gyms in hotels would be closed, and no congregating would be allowed in the lobby.
The third phase would permit restaurant dining of larger groups. Hotel pools and gyms could reopen with enhanced cleaning, and groups of up to 10 would be allowed in lobbies.
The fourth phase would bring hotel and restaurant practices near to normal with enhanced cleaning and training for staff still in place.
Retail trade
Curbside and delivery of products would remain an option and would be encouraged for “vulnerable populations” reluctant to enter a store to shop.
Owners would be encouraged to set aside special hours for at-risk people to shop.
Reopened stores will have one-way aisles “if possible” and customers would stay six feet apart at the checkout.
All clothing tried on by customers would be put in quarantine for 48 hours before being returned to the sales floor.
Cashiers must wear masks, and plastic dividers would be installed between cashiers and the public where feasible.
State parks and beaches
The Flume in Franconia Notch would be fully open first for online advance ticketing only, with groups of up to six at one time.
Food and beverage sales would be limited to grab-and-go and outdoor seating.
Initially, inland beaches at state parks would be open only for campers, with day users allowed later, said Parks Director Phil Bryce.
Each beach’s capacity would be determined and enforced to ensure social distancing, he said.
State park officials are studying a second, future option at ocean beaches to allow “restricted sitting” on the sand but Bryce said it’s a work in progress.
“We are looking at specific locations or how to figure out reserve spots on the beach so umbrellas aren’t touching each other. There is a lot of details to see whether this is possible,” Bryce said.
“The Seacoast is so complex and it is such an at risk environment that we want to be careful to make sure phase one goes well before moving on.”
Campgrounds
The recommendations call for restrooms to be used by one person at a time.
Private campgrounds could open up rest rooms to wider use if social distancing were possible.
Campers could not have visitors.
Task force members persuaded Bryce to permit shower and laundry services at campgrounds as long as sanitation meets state and federal regulations.
Tent use could be at 50% of campground capacity.
Rep. Ed Butler, D-Hart’s Location, said he supported it.
“I think the issue of having a phase in which we open to a lesser extent is a reassurance for our general population that we are taking steps in the right direction but not open up quickly to everything,” Butler said.
Bryce had proposed RV sites have one open space between them, but the task force changed that to allow all RV spots to be occupied as long as campers practice social distancing.
Sen. Robert Giuda, R-Warren, lobbied for getting rid of having to space RV’s.
“I can be in an RV three feet away from another and I am still six feet away from everybody with two walls in between. The virus doesn’t go through walls,” Giuda said.
“This type of broad brush rule I find counterproductive to getting businesses and reopened and profitable again.”
Golf courses
During the first phase, tee times would be 12 minutes apart to maintain social distancing.
Golfers would bring their own equipment. Clubhouses and locker rooms would be closed except for golfers to use the restroom.
A beer cart could make sales along the course as long as the staffer wore personal protection.
The flag at each hole would be altered so hitting the stick would complete scoring and golfers wouldn’t have to reach into the cup.
In the second phase, pro shops would reopen.
A “halfway house” could open at the midpoint of the course to allow limited food and drink to be picked up, but seating or service would not be available.
The flags would be placed into the hole as normal in this phase, and tee times would be reduced to 10 minutes apart.
Golf instruction and some youth golf activity could open with social distancing.
The third phase would remove many of the restrictions, but in all phases, players would remain in their cars until 15 minutes before teeing off.
The clubhouse could open for groups of not more than 10 and tee times would be eight minutes apart.

[ApS]

Please see response #93 above.

Testing and vaccines will be a part of our foreseeable lives but when and how are almost 7,000,000,000 people going to be tested or inoculated?

Advanced? No, they have lots of money and can buy technology and people.

Consider that a vaccine may never be developed for this man-made virus.

Agree. Me thinks there are many Pizzagate believers on this board.

"Debunked", banned outright, or "shadow-banned" by social media, the 4chan hunt ended at a large and troubling bronze statue in their living room. (Too troubling to post a link here).

That above sentence contains more than enough key words for a Google search. Explain the origin of the statue and why Pizzagate remains "debunked".

Astonishingly, the statue is still pictured on the Internet. :eek2:

[TiltonBB]

From the state: "While indoor dining will continue to be prohibited, starting May 18, restaurants will be allowed to open outdoor dining, with tables 6 feet apart and guests limited to six per table."

I like Chris Sununu but have to wonder if 7 or 8 people sat at a table, what is the difference?

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/local/golf-haircuts-outdoor-restaurant-dining-to-return-to-new-hampshire/article_c0e5fb5c-8bf2-11ea-b03e-635d2c493c82.html

[map]

From the state: "While indoor dining will continue to be prohibited, starting May 18, restaurants will be allowed to open outdoor dining, with tables 6 feet apart and guests limited to six per table."

I like Chris Sununu but have to wonder if 7 or 8 people sat at a table, what is the difference?

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/local/golf-haircuts-outdoor-restaurant-dining-to-return-to-new-hampshire/article_c0e5fb5c-8bf2-11ea-b03e-635d2c493c82.html


Exactly what I have been saying!

[gravy boat]

Was listening to the police scanner yesterday for a bit and a Gilford PD officer reported a group of 10-15 Audis gathered in the Gilford Cinema parking lot. Obviously a club out for a drive and stopped here to either take a break or determine the route to take.

Apparently some "were not practicing safe distancing" so the police officer pulled in, talked to them and gave them a warning. Really?

Agree or disagree, I personally find that a monumental waste of a police officer's time.

I wonder if that is now the primary directive for police in NH -- "at all costs, stop people from gathering."

GB

[Susie Cougar]

Florida is starting to reopen in phases. Today, restaurants are allowed to have 50% outdoor seating and 25% indoor seating.

[FlyingScot]

From the state: "While indoor dining will continue to be prohibited, starting May 18, restaurants will be allowed to open outdoor dining, with tables 6 feet apart and guests limited to six per table."

I like Chris Sununu but have to wonder if 7 or 8 people sat at a table, what is the difference?

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/local/golf-haircuts-outdoor-restaurant-dining-to-return-to-new-hampshire/article_c0e5fb5c-8bf2-11ea-b03e-635d2c493c82.html


There will be a limit of 6 per table--learned this last night while getting take from El Mariachi in Moultonboro. It was excellent!

Also from El Mariachi--they have gated off a section of their parking lot and added picnic tables. You can eat your to-go dinner right there. As of May 18, there will be table service. They are applying for an outdoor liquor license.

[TheProfessor]

My roommate from college currently lives in Beijing, I wouldn't really say they are returning to normal. Here is a video from about two weeks ago after being in quarantine for two months. He and his wife are still staying in. This isn't over for a long time....

https://youtu.be/AJfi1T8F4BM

Notice the MASK that he is wearing. Not a simple painters mask that we have here. That mask has a filter built into mask.

Funny. But sad. The brand name is 3M. A US company.

He can get a 3M filter in mask. We can't.

3M is a USA company the last I read. And we can't get those 3M masks with inhale filter ???

[gravy boat]

Quick observations on mask and gloves:

We've noticed that there are plenty of people wearing masks with it pulled below their noses - including folks checking you out at most of the local stores.

Also, we see plenty of people wearing gloves -- and touching everything. We watched a man at the Post Office in Lakeport a few days ago (with mask and gloves). While inside the PO his gloves touched the door handle both coming and leaving, his wallet, credit card, credit card processor...and when he entered his car his contaminated gloves touched his door handle, the steering wheel, his keys, his phone and his mask before he removed his gloves. Then he touched his steering wheel and phone without gloves. We had to laugh.

Why bother?

GB

[Mr. V]

We had to laugh.

It's no laughing matter: all of our lives are potentially at risk.

Sad that you think watching people flounder while trying to protect themselves and others is funny.

[TheProfessor]

While inside the PO his gloves touched the door handle both coming and leaving, his wallet, credit card, credit card processor...and when he entered his car his contaminated gloves touched his door handle?


Well. Long before COVID-19 I viewed local grocery store deli counter.
There, they are supposed to put on new gloves for each customer.
A few do. But most leave the same gloves on for a long time - defeating the whole purpose of gloves.

One lady at the local grocery store - she put on new gloves for a deli order.
BUT
She observed a discarded glove on counter. Picked up the used discarded glove and threw the used discarded glove into wastebasket. THEN proceeded to do my order.
Her gloves, although new, were then contaminated by touching the discarded gloves.

Who is in charge of hygiene at the local grocery store ?
Do the folks at these grocery stores receive hygiene food safety training?
And does anyone actually observe them?

[codeman671]

We were on the lake both days this weekend. I couldn't believe the number of people out on land. We hit immediate traffic at route 11 and noted it was backed up all the way to Johnsons from the circle.

Tons of bikers at the circle store, and Alton bay was packed as well. It looked like bike week out there!

From a business opening standpoint we have been selling packages to small businesses with face shields and surgical masks and have had tons of orders since Thursday. Its good to see so many taking this seriously.

[ApS]

Dr, if it doesn't aren't we in big trouble? I know the efficacy of the flu vaccine is limited due to not knowing strains. Would this be opposite or will CV-19 morph?
The highly-touted Oxford vaccine is expected this Autumn. It will NOT replace the regular flu vaccine.

https://news.yahoo.com/oxford-scientist-says-coronavirus-vaccine-172827584.html..

[Newbiesaukee]

Dr, if it doesn't aren't we in big trouble? I know the efficacy of the flu vaccine is limited due to not knowing strains. Would this be opposite or will CV-19 morph?

Sorry, I did not answer sooner.

Yes, if any Covid-19 virus vaccine does not work we are in trouble. The good news is; even though coronaviruses, including the one we are dealing with, do mutate, this is usually not a problem.Emphasize usually. Flu viruses also mutate but the problems with the flu viruses are that the protective vaccine immune reaction only lasts roughly six months. Also there are multiple different flu viruses and the vaccine companies have to “guess” which ones to make each year.

There is too much we do NOT know about Covid-19. It is more likely to recur in the fall than not, but nobody really knows

It is also unlikely a Covid vaccine will be ready for the fall. But one can hope.

[Not to Worry]

I guess there is no winning. We cannot stay closed until we have a vaccine but the death toll looks like it will continue to climb if we do not.

"A key model of the coronavirus pandemic favored by the White House nearly doubled its prediction Monday for how many people will die from the virus in the U.S. by August – primarily because states are reopening too soon.

The Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington’s School of Medicine is now projecting 134,000 coronavirus-related fatalities, up from a previous prediction of 72,000. Factoring in the scientists’ margin of error, the new prediction ranges from 95,000 to 243,000."

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/04/cdc-daily-deaths-coronavirus-234377

[Not to Worry]

Given all the protests I was thinking most were in a rush to reopen. Guess not.

"Americans clearly oppose the reopening of restaurants, retail stores and other businesses, even as governors begin to lift restrictions that have kept the economy locked down in an effort to combat the coronavirus pandemic, according to a Washington Post-University of Maryland poll.
The opposition expressed by sizable majorities of Americans reflects other cautions and concerns revealed in the survey, including continuing fears among most people that they could become infected by the coronavirus, as well as a belief that the worst of the medical crisis is not yet over."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/americans-widely-oppose-reopening-most-businesses-despite-easing-of-restrictions-in-some-states-post-u-md-poll-finds/2020/05/04/495ddc3a-8e36-11ea-9e23-6914ee410a5f_story.html

[Newbiesaukee]

A somewhat worrying addendum to the above.

A new story in the LA Times discussing some new information about the mutating virus which may be a problem.

https://apple.news/APYLRcU6BTgKHfFbdTbWscw

[VitaBene]

Consider that a vaccine may never be developed for this man-made virus.


If a man or woman made the virus, then another can make a vaccine.

[JEEPONLY]

Quick observations on mask and gloves:

We've noticed that there are plenty of people wearing masks with it pulled below their noses - including folks checking you out at most of the local stores.

Also, we see plenty of people wearing gloves -- and touching everything. We watched a man at the Post Office in Lakeport a few days ago (with mask and gloves). While inside the PO his gloves touched the door handle both coming and leaving, his wallet, credit card, credit card processor...and when he entered his car his contaminated gloves touched his door handle, the steering wheel, his keys, his phone and his mask before he removed his gloves. Then he touched his steering wheel and phone without gloves. We had to laugh.

Why bother?

GB

But if you don't get the meaning of this post- you are part of the problem (and a danger to yourself and family!).

[gravy boat]

It's no laughing matter: all of our lives are potentially at risk.

Sad that you think watching people flounder while trying to protect themselves and others is funny.



He wasn't floundering by any means. He was simply doing what he was told would protect him and others -- except they (meaning the Governor and local and national media) failed to include what NOT to do every time they drove home "wear and mask and gloves." THAT was what we were laughing about -- how people still don't know what NOT to do.

[Pineedles]

It’s not Ebola folks. If you feel unsafe stay home.


Sent from my iPad using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

[TheProfessor]

California doctors pressured to list deaths as COVID-19:

https://youtu.be/D5GDPCUUBEE

Note: YouTube sensors yanked this video tidbit. Gone.

Or maybe the authors took it down. Who knows.

[Seaplane Pilot]

A friend sent this to me earlier today. If this doesn’t make you question what’s going on, then we’re all doomed.

https://americanconsequences.com/the-big-lie-behind-covid-19/?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

[ApS]

Notice the MASK that he is wearing. Not a simple painters mask that we have here. That mask has a filter built into mask. Funny. But sad. The brand name is 3M. A US company. He can get a 3M filter in mask. We can't. 3M is a USA company the last I read. And we can't get those 3M masks with inhale filter ???
Peter Navarro explained last week:


"The third kill and China’s own customs data, Neil, show this -- we saw while they were hiding the virus from the world, they went out and vacuumed up all the PPE around the world, two billion masks they bought alone. And they took it from countries in Europe, South America, the United States.

And so when the people, the nurses, the brave nurses and doctors on the frontlines in New York or Chicago or Detroit or New Orleans needed PPE, part of the reason they didn’t have it is because of that third kill.
The Chinese had basically vacuumed that up.

And now, the fourth kill is that they’re hoarding that and using that PPE as a weapon in their soft power to project it and to profiteer. I mean, we’re seeing, Neil, these are 30, 40-cent masks, 50-cent masks at retail usually, and they’re selling them, they’re coming to the hospitals here for $7 and $8.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/25/peter_navarro_this_is_a_war_that_china_started_by_ spawning_the_virus_by_hiding_the_virus_hoarding_pp e.html

[VitaBene]

Given all the protests I was thinking most were in a rush to reopen. Guess not.

"Americans clearly oppose the reopening of restaurants, retail stores and other businesses, even as governors begin to lift restrictions that have kept the economy locked down in an effort to combat the coronavirus pandemic, according to a Washington Post-University of Maryland poll.
The opposition expressed by sizable majorities of Americans reflects other cautions and concerns revealed in the survey, including continuing fears among most people that they could become infected by the coronavirus, as well as a belief that the worst of the medical crisis is not yet over."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/americans-widely-oppose-reopening-most-businesses-despite-easing-of-restrictions-in-some-states-post-u-md-poll-finds/2020/05/04/495ddc3a-8e36-11ea-9e23-6914ee410a5f_story.html
Part of the problem is defining re-opening. I believe that most of us that talk about re-opening believe that we need to ease thoughtfully.

[ApS]

If a man or woman made the virus, then another can make a vaccine.
Maybe.

Among human-to-human transmissible diseases, Ebola and HIV still have no vaccines.

Poking around some serious UK studies, I found this quote:

"It is near-impossible to predict future trajectories for the virulence and transmissibility of horizontally transmitted pathogens. It is also possible that the population of SARS-CoV-2 will evolve into different lineages characterised by variable levels of virulence and transmissibility".
:(

On scanning the credits, one study was found titled, "Looking for Darwin in All the Wrong Places". :laugh:

[TheProfessor]

A friend sent this to me earlier today. If this doesn’t make you question what’s going on, then we’re all doomed.

https://americanconsequences.com/the-big-lie-behind-covid-19/?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

"we rate American Consequences Right Biased based on story selection that favors the right and Mixed for factual reporting based on minimal use of sources to support opinions."

LINK (https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/american-consequences/)

[Not to Worry]

I guess we cannot stay closed forever so I understand the need to reopen. Still I wonder how many of us will die as a result of this decision. Both choices are fraught with disaster. Thank you China for being open, transparent hand helping the world avoid this. NOT!

"As nearly half of U.S. states begin to ease restrictions that were put in place to slow the spread of the coronavirus, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is quietly projecting a stark rise in the number of new cases of the virus and deaths from it over the next month.

Modeling from the CDC, incorporated into a chart prepared by the Federal Emergency Management Agency and circulated within the administration, was obtained by the New York Times. It projects 200,000 new daily cases of the coronavirus by the end of May and 3,000 daily deaths in the U.S. At present, approximately 25,000 new cases are reported each day, with roughly 1,750 deaths."

https://news.yahoo.com/as-states-push-ahead-with-reopening-cdc-warns-coronavirus-cases-and-deaths-are-set-to-soar-182250157.html

[Bigstan]

"we rate American Consequences Right Biased based on story selection that favors the right and Mixed for factual reporting based on minimal use of sources to support opinions."

LINK (https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/american-consequences/)

So what? Doesn't make it incorrect. And who checks Media Bias Fact Check for bias? Someone has to watch the watchers.

I'm sure somewhere in the mix even CNN has an accurate story posted, you can't discount everything you don't like.

[Biggd]

Every article is slanted toward the writers bias, whether it's on MSM or the WWW. When you search anything online you are being profiled. So when you access your computer, phone, or tablet every day the articles that come up are geared towards your profile. They know what you have search and what you most likely want to see, "click bait". Everyone has an agenda and can easily find articles that fit that agenda.

[Mr. V]

Some people in rural, conservative republican SE Washington are hosting "Covid-19 parties" in the hopes of catching the virus and getting it over with.

see: https://www.columbian.com/news/2020/may/06/people-holding-coronavirus-parties-in-southeast-washington/

Looks like their infection rate is increasing.

A classic "good news/bad news."

[ApS]

A friend sent this to me earlier today. If this doesn’t make you question what’s going on, then we’re all doomed.
https://americanconsequences.com/the-big-lie-behind-covid-19/?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark
Seaplane Pilot's thoughtful essay link seems to have attracted a detractor. The last sentence (pictured last) covers the direction of the article.

"This virus is definitely dangerous to the old and diseased. To everyone else, it's going to be a nonevent...just like every other flu season."

"we rate American Consequences Right Biased based on story selection that favors the right and Mixed for factual reporting based on minimal use of sources to support opinions."
LINK (https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/american-consequences/)

"We rate?"

Bigstan just wrote, "Who watches the Watchers?"
Excellent point.

This screen shot from Seaplane Pilot's article (below) indicates any bias is in the opposite direction. :eek2:

[dickiej]

I'm generally not one to believe in conspiracies, but honest to god, the more you read and research this whole thing just makes you shake your head. 99.2% of us are unaffected, yet the entire nation was shut down and economic havoc was wreaked upon everyone. Clyde Lewis thinks this was set up to instill fear and pave the way for what he calls "the new world order." I don't know, maybe I'm just getting paranoid in my old age. We'll see.....

[Seaplane Pilot]

I'm generally not one to believe in conspiracies, but honest to god, the more you read and research this whole thing just makes you shake your head. 99.2% of us are unaffected, yet the entire nation was shut down and economic havoc was wreaked upon everyone. Clyde Lewis thinks this was set up to instill fear and pave the way for what he calls "the new world order." I don't know, maybe I'm just getting paranoid in my old age. We'll see.....

Put a neck brace on before you watch this video, because your head will really be shaking!

https://www.bitchute.com/video/ixYeaux359dV/?fbclid=IwAR3y5vFsuliUg5V7pzcnhEwPAydMoWFASeJwbiOl-prZba4wjZL0qJdxi7s

[Garcia]

Put a neck brace on before you watch this video, because your head will really be shaking!

https://www.bitchute.com/video/ixYeaux359dV/?fbclid=IwAR3y5vFsuliUg5V7pzcnhEwPAydMoWFASeJwbiOl-prZba4wjZL0qJdxi7s

Should probably read this as well:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/scientist-vaccine-jailed/

[FlyingScot]

I'm generally not one to believe in conspiracies, but honest to god, the more you read and research this whole thing just makes you shake your head. 99.2% of us are unaffected, yet the entire nation was shut down and economic havoc was wreaked upon everyone. Clyde Lewis thinks this was set up to instill fear and pave the way for what he calls "the new world order." I don't know, maybe I'm just getting paranoid in my old age. We'll see.....

The whole point of the last two months is to make sure that "99.2% of us" remain unaffected.

So I agree that you are "just getting paranoid" if you believe that somehow virtually every government in the world, virtually every public health official, virtually every medical professional, and virtually every individual political leader in our country--from Donald Trump to Bernie Sanders--all somehow conspired to hurt the system(s) that all of us and all of them depend upon.

[Biggd]

The NH moto "live free or die" doesn't appeal to me all that much when it's an either or option.

[Newbiesaukee]

Whichever entities: countries, individuals, groups,etc. whose goal is to undermine trust in our institutions... governmental,scientific, educational and otherwise seem to be winning and everyone else is losing.

And this is the conspiracy that I worry about.

[Not to Worry]

Should probably read this as well:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/scientist-vaccine-jailed/

I guess this women is known quack but hey we all love a good conspiracy theory.

From WP "The film is so questionable that social media platforms including Facebook, YouTube and Vimeo on Thursday scrubbed it from their sites. A Vimeo spokesperson, for example, said that the company “stands firm in keeping our platform safe from content that spreads harmful and misleading health information. The video in question has been removed … for violating these very policies”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/05/08/plandemic-judy-mikovits-coronavirus/

[retired]

The experts say to achieve herd immunity, 70-90% of the population must have either had the virus or received a vaccine. NH is at .2%. We have a long way to go. Let's not let fear drive us.

[jbolty]

I guess this women is known quack but hey we all love a good conspiracy theory.

From WP "The film is so questionable that social media platforms including Facebook, YouTube and Vimeo on Thursday scrubbed it from their sites. A Vimeo spokesperson, for example, said that the company “stands firm in keeping our platform safe from content that spreads harmful and misleading health information. The video in question has been removed … for violating these very policies”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/05/08/plandemic-judy-mikovits-coronavirus/

I have not watched that video but I do know I would not trust the WP to accurately report the sun rising and as for all the media platforms, how do they know what's true or not. Twitter and FB claim to be following WHO guidelines but that organization is not trustworthy. The remainder just toe the leftist line to make the panic as wide as possible in the cause of ever expanding government.

[FlyingScot]

I have not watched that video but I do know I would not trust the WP to accurately report the sun rising and as for all the media platforms, how do they know what's true or not. Twitter and FB claim to be following WHO guidelines but that organization is not trustworthy. The remainder just toe the leftist line to make the panic as wide as possible in the cause of ever expanding government.

Since the Post is one of the most respected news outlets in the country (world?), and you repeat a conspiracy theory that there is intentional main stream misinformation, my guess is that you don't read any news that most of us would recognize as credible. If you have specific critiques on an article relevant to this thread, please share instead of just casting aspersions or reiterating political talking points.

[jbolty]

Since the Post is one of the most respected news outlets in the country (world?), and you repeat a conspiracy theory that there is intentional main stream misinformation, my guess is that you don't read any news that most of us would recognize as credible. If you have specific critiques on an article relevant to this thread, please share instead of just casting aspersions or reiterating political talking points.

respected by who? The Compost is the personal diary for Bezos who is making billions from continuing the panic.

do you trust Forbes?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kalevleetaru/2017/01/01/fake-news-and-how-the-washington-post-rewrote-its-story-on-russian-hacking-of-the-power-grid/#3d7e55db7ad5

[dickiej]

Bezos is a despicable human being....when is enough $$$$ enough? Making 1.3 billion in two months while millions of people can't buy groceries? Really?

[FlyingScot]

respected by who? The Compost is the personal diary for Bezos who is making billions from continuing the panic.

do you trust Forbes?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kalevleetaru/2017/01/01/fake-news-and-how-the-washington-post-rewrote-its-story-on-russian-hacking-of-the-power-grid/#3d7e55db7ad5

Yes, apparently they made a mistake on an article and they fixed it. That does not change my assertion, reiterated in the Forbes article, that the Post is one of "the nation's most prestigious news outlets".

[FlyingScot]

Bezos is a despicable human being....when is enough $$$$ enough? Making 1.3 billion in two months while millions of people can't buy groceries? Really?

I don't admire many of the tech leaders as people, and I agree with your implication that too much flows to those at the top, but you seem to be villainizing him just for making a lot of money. Sorry, but we're all capitalists. Aren't we?

[jbolty]

none are so blind as those who will not see.

[dickiej]

I don't admire many of the tech leaders as people, and I agree with your implication that too much flows to those at the top, but you seem to be villainizing him just for making a lot of money. Sorry, but we're all capitalists. Aren't we?

It's not just the obscene amount of money he makes....yes, I am a free marketeer and I believe people who work hard and are successful should reap the benefits of that hard work....it's HOW he makes his money....right now he is reaping the benefits off those severely affected from the corona virus...sort of like big pharma making billions literally off of sick people. He treats his employees horribly, particularly the low level warehouse workers.
And maybe the thing that gets me the most is that Amazon and Google are not going to rest until they know EVERYTHING about us: where we go, what we do, what we look at, what we say. Who knew you can't turn Alexa off....she is listening to our conversations 24/7. Who knew that they can watch us through our cameras, notice we have an older refrigerator and send us ads for new ones.
I just find him smarmy, too rich, and invading our privacy even more than we know.

[Not to Worry]

Probably still from the wild...or at least from the wild that China was researching but maybe the are more culpable than I first thought?

"WASHINGTON — A private analysis of cellphone location data purports to show that a high-security Wuhan laboratory studying coronaviruses shut down in October, three sources briefed on the matter told NBC News. U.S. spy agencies are reviewing the document, but intelligence analysts examined and couldn't confirm a similar theory previously, two senior officials say.

The report — obtained by the London-based NBC News Verification Unit — says there was no cellphone activity in a high-security portion of the Wuhan Institute of Virology from Oct. 7 through Oct. 24, 2019, and that there may have been a "hazardous event" sometime between Oct. 6 and Oct. 11.

It offers no direct evidence of a shutdown, or any proof for the theory that the virus emerged accidentally from the lab."

https://news.yahoo.com/report-says-cellphone-data-suggests-001233644.html

[Biggd]

It's not just the obscene amount of money he makes....yes, I am a free marketeer and I believe people who work hard and are successful should reap the benefits of that hard work....it's HOW he makes his money....right now he is reaping the benefits off those severely affected from the corona virus...sort of like big pharma making billions literally off of sick people. He treats his employees horribly, particularly the low level warehouse workers.
And maybe the thing that gets me the most is that Amazon and Google are not going to rest until they know EVERYTHING about us: where we go, what we do, what we look at, what we say. Who knew you can't turn Alexa off....she is listening to our conversations 24/7. Who knew that they can watch us through our cameras, notice we have an older refrigerator and send us ads for new ones.
I just find him smarmy, too rich, and invading our privacy even more than we know.The US government does the same.

[lakeporter65]

The US government does the same.

So Biggd, in your mind that makes it OK?

[FlyingScot]

It's not just the obscene amount of money he makes....yes, I am a free marketeer and I believe people who work hard and are successful should reap the benefits of that hard work....it's HOW he makes his money....right now he is reaping the benefits off those severely affected from the corona virus...sort of like big pharma making billions literally off of sick people. He treats his employees horribly, particularly the low level warehouse workers.
And maybe the thing that gets me the most is that Amazon and Google are not going to rest until they know EVERYTHING about us: where we go, what we do, what we look at, what we say. Who knew you can't turn Alexa off....she is listening to our conversations 24/7. Who knew that they can watch us through our cameras, notice we have an older refrigerator and send us ads for new ones.
I just find him smarmy, too rich, and invading our privacy even more than we know.

Bezos is extraordinarily rich primarily because he built something magnificent that we all enjoy. (I don't see anyone calling for a boycott of the evil Amazon.) As are Gates, Zuckerberg, Walton, and many pharma CEOs. The real anger against Bezos is that he owns a newspaper that's been very good at pointing out the President's shortcomings.

But I agree that the excesses these guys go to are often sociopathic. So I support the bipartisan effort to increase regulation on big tech, and I hope it will curb some of the stuff you listed.

[chasedawg]

Put a neck brace on before you watch this video, because your head will really be shaking!

https://www.bitchute.com/video/ixYeaux359dV/?fbclid=IwAR3y5vFsuliUg5V7pzcnhEwPAydMoWFASeJwbiOl-prZba4wjZL0qJdxi7s

OMG! here we again. This is old bull crap. It has been disproven. Check your facts before you post this crap.. This is why social media is so wrong.

[Chris M]

This is why social media is so wrong. We should have a society where only the trusted big media outlets should have a voice, and nobody should have to do any digging to find the "truth" because free speech shouldn't really be a thing anymore?

[ApS]

OMG! here we again. This is old bull crap. It has been disproven. Check your facts before you post this crap.. This is why social media is so wrong.
If doctors in Equador are correct, they've discovered why ventilators don't work, and that covid-19 researchers have been looking in the wrong place(s). :eek:

Intravenous ClO2 (Clorine dioxide) was found to result in a 100% cure rate!

https://www.naturalnews.com/2020-05-18-researchers-claim-100-percent-cure-rate-vs-covid-19-ecuador-intravenous-chlorine-dioxide.html

So far, the above link is the only link in English, and it goes on to condemn the CDC and modern pharmacology. :eek2:

As for virus researcher Dr. Mikovits, much has been made of her disputes with Dr. Fauci on social media. Most of us didn't know 3-1/2 hours of YouTube interviews of her existed!

George Webb has reviewed all of it last week for his investigative YouTube-based website, so further study by interested forum members should be directed there.

Google doesn't readily direct "George Webb" inquiries, but George Webb is the interviewer on the left in a related COVID-19 YouTube: https://youtu.be/kXrmzo3tOH8

[Major]

It appears that we have our answer. It ends with looting and rioting by thugs. However, there is a bright spot. They didn't seem too concerned about wearing masks or social distancing. Looks like we're in the clear of the dreaded Chinese coronavirus.

Another bright spot is that I'm looking to get my share of free high end items when I go to Boston tomorrow for work. Specifically, I'm thinking of picking up a free Louis Vuitton bag for my wife. I saw nice young men taking armful loads of them from the store, so I'm sure they won't mind if I grab one.

[FlyingScot]

It appears that we have our answer. It ends with looting and rioting by thugs. However, there is a bright spot. They didn't seem too concerned about wearing masks or social distancing. Looks like we're in the clear of the dreaded Chinese coronavirus.

Another bright spot is that I'm looking to get my share of free high end items when I go to Boston tomorrow for work. Specifically, I'm thinking of picking up a free Louis Vuitton bag for my wife. I saw nice young men taking armful loads of them from the store, so I'm sure they won't mind if I grab one.

Obviously no relation to COVID-19.

Not even much relation to the unbelievable racism that most of the protestors are there for. 9 minutes on the neck of this guy? After a dozen other videos in the past year?

Plenty of relation to our government's incompetent handling of both the protestors and the anarchists.

[Biggd]

It appears that we have our answer. It ends with looting and rioting by thugs. However, there is a bright spot. They didn't seem too concerned about wearing masks or social distancing. Looks like we're in the clear of the dreaded Chinese coronavirus.

Another bright spot is that I'm looking to get my share of free high end items when I go to Boston tomorrow for work. Specifically, I'm thinking of picking up a free Louis Vuitton bag for my wife. I saw nice young men taking armful loads of them from the store, so I'm sure they won't mind if I grab one.You have a twisted sense of humor.

[Major]

You have a twisted sense of humor.

Why do so-called protestors get a free pass from social distancing and masks whereas the rest of the great unwashed have to comply?

This has nothing to do with health and safety, but instead with control. If health and safety were important, the governors and mayors of our liberal cities (having the most stringent restrictions) would enforce curfews, social distancing and mask requirements.

[Mr. V]

Why do so-called protestors get a free pass from social distancing and masks whereas the rest of the great unwashed have to comply?


Most of the protestors were wearing masks, which makes sense: it shields their identity.

[Grant]

I think a real tell-tale litmus test of the validity of continuing the lockdowns will come in the coming days, when we see if all this urban protesting results in "spikes" in infection. They say ~80% of cases manifest within 3-7 days of exposure, and there were THOUSANDS of people (many without masks, etc.) in the streets in close close proximity. If there are no spikes in new cases in Minneapolis, D.C., Philly, New York, etc., then it's probably safe to go to the beach, etc. Just a thought. Convince me I'm wrong.

[ishoot308]

What I don't get is why is it perfectly acceptable to fly in a plane that is completely full (yes they are full including middle seat!) yet we cant go inside a restaurant???....:confused::confused:

[Grant]

What I don't get is why is it perfectly acceptable to fly in a plane that is completely full (yes they are full including middle seat!) yet we cant go inside a restaurant???....:confused::confused:

Exactly. Down here in PA, Target, WalMart, and Costco are all open and doing brisk business, yet the local family-owned garden center remains shuttered during their busiest (break-even) time of the year. The rules are often arbitrary and puzzling, and thousands of businesses will never open their doors again as a result.

But hey, we can just print some more greenbacks and toss them around like confetti...everything will be cool. The gub'mint will come to our rescue and tuck us in.

Perhaps it's time for that Yellowstone super volcano to blow and pull the curtain on this goat rodeo.

[VitaBene]

What I don't get is why is it perfectly acceptable to fly in a plane that is completely full (yes they are full including middle seat!) yet we cant go inside a restaurant???....:confused::confused:

I wish I could- I flew 2X in the past 10 days. People are masked, no food or beverage service (except in front), but I was sitting next to someone. The planes look cleaner than usual. I fly direct from Manch to Charlotte. You could roll a bowling ball in most terminals and not hit a person!

[ishoot308]

I wish I could- I flew 2X in the past 10 days. People are masked, no food or beverage service (except in front), but I was sitting next to someone. The planes look cleaner than usual. I fly direct from Manch to Charlotte. You could roll a bowling ball in most terminals and not hit a person!

Vita, only first class gets food and beverage service??

I don't know of any closer contact of people than in a plane...most of the time it's body contact too I.E. arm touching arm etc, etc....yet somehow you can't be seated inside a restaurant even if you are 6' apart. Makes zero sense to me!

Dan

[Major]

What I don't get is why is it perfectly acceptable to fly in a plane that is completely full (yes they are full including middle seat!) yet we cant go inside a restaurant???....:confused::confused:

I have said this many times before, and I'll say it again. Our leaders are completely making this up as they go and have absolutely no idea what they are doing. They are indiscriminately picking winners and losers with no real analysis. I'll give you an example, our office is 25,000 square feet. When fully occupied, we have 65 total employees. I'll do the math for everyone, that's 385 square feet per employee (equivalent of a 19.6 X 19.6 room). Yet, we have to pay some pinhead to see how many people we can have in our space when (at this point it's more like if) we return to work. Common sense, which is lacking in all this, tells me that we are all set.

[Seaplane Pilot]

I have said this many times before, and I'll say it again. Our leaders are completely making this up as they go and have absolutely no idea what they are doing. They are indiscriminately picking winners and losers with no real analysis. I'll give you an example, our office is 25,000 square feet. When fully occupied, we have 65 total employees. I'll do the math for everyone, that's 385 square feet per employee (equivalent of a 19.6 X 19.6 room). Yet, we have to pay some pinhead to see how many people we can have in our space when (at this point it's more like if) we return to work. Common sense, which is lacking in all this, tells me that we are all set.

Their house of cards is rapidly collapsing. Time for the ruling class to change the subject and come up with another manufactured "crisis".

[Major]

Their house of cards is rapidly collapsing. Time for the ruling class to change the subject and come up with another manufactured "crisis".

Exactly! There will be another crisis, there always is. However, until the new crisis is manufactured, it will be the height of hypocrisy when our leaders come back to tell us that we must adhere to social distancing, wearing masks, quarantining, etc. when it is obvious these rules do not apply to so-called "protesters." The rest of us should protest and revolt NOW. Obviously, they can't arrest us. The upside is at least when we revolt, there will be no destruction or looting.

[gravy boat]

I think a real tell-tale litmus test of the validity of continuing the lockdowns will come in the coming days, when we see if all this urban protesting results in "spikes" in infection. They say ~80% of cases manifest within 3-7 days of exposure, and there were THOUSANDS of people (many without masks, etc.) in the streets in close close proximity. If there are no spikes in new cases in Minneapolis, D.C., Philly, New York, etc., then it's probably safe to go to the beach, etc. Just a thought. Convince me I'm wrong.

Agree. I don't think there will be as many as people think. On a similar note, has anybody seen the numbers of how many were infected and died from the Spring Breakers who went to Miami? I've seen zero but may have not looked in the right place... I recall we were told by government many citizens that a mass infection and deaths will results from the Spring Breakers' selfishness.

[TiltonBB]

It appears that we have our answer. It ends with looting and rioting by thugs. However, there is a bright spot. They didn't seem too concerned about wearing masks or social distancing. Looks like we're in the clear of the dreaded Chinese coronavirus.

Another bright spot is that I'm looking to get my share of free high end items when I go to Boston tomorrow for work. Specifically, I'm thinking of picking up a free Louis Vuitton bag for my wife. I saw nice young men taking armful loads of them from the store, so I'm sure they won't mind if I grab one.

If you are checking the looted stores, there should be plenty of work boots left behind too. For some reason they didn't take them.

[Top-Water]

If you are checking the looted stores, there should be plenty of work boots left behind too. For some reason they didn't take them.

:):) That made me smile.

[TiltonBB]

If you were killed what store would you want looted in your honor? (Asking for a friend)

[FlyingScot]

Agree. I don't think there will be as many as people think. On a similar note, has anybody seen the numbers of how many were infected and died from the Spring Breakers who went to Miami? I've seen zero but may have not looked in the right place... I recall we were told by government many citizens that a mass infection and deaths will results from the Spring Breakers' selfishness.

Spring Break analysis is going to be really tough because any people who were infected were then dispersed nationwide, so the data will show up across many geographies and thus be diluted. But Mardi Gras data and analysis show a definite impact on Louisiana.

https://www.wwno.org/post/cdc-report-addresses-mardi-gras-impact-and-fact-no-one-was-canceling-events-february

[kawishiwi]

I think a real tell-tale litmus test of the validity of continuing the lockdowns will come in the coming days, when we see if all this urban protesting results in "spikes" in infection. They say ~80% of cases manifest within 3-7 days of exposure, and there were THOUSANDS of people (many without masks, etc.) in the streets in close close proximity. If there are no spikes in new cases in Minneapolis, D.C., Philly, New York, etc., then it's probably safe to go to the beach, etc. Just a thought. Convince me I'm wrong.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/03/architect-of-sweden-coronavirus-strategy-admits-too-many-died-anders-tegnell

[ApS]

Agree. I don't think there will be as many as people think. On a similar note, has anybody seen the numbers of how many were infected and died from the Spring Breakers who went to Miami? I've seen zero but may have not looked in the right place... I recall we were told by government many citizens that a mass infection and deaths will results from the Spring Breakers' selfishness.
1) Business Insider shows Spring Breakers' cellphones being tracked back to their home locales.

https://i.insider.com/5e7e029d92e1915d672fc026?width=1200&format=jpeg

2) Last week, it was observed that if New York (alone) was a sovereign country, New York would be the in the same highly-diseased spot as recorded for the entire USA.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/03/architect-of-sweden-coronavirus-strategy-admits-too-many-died-anders-tegnell

3) At least Sweden hasn't "totaled" their economy, although they probably regret accepting the greatest share of "Libyan" immigrants among all the Scandinavian countries.

4) This cartoon was probably intended for those who think otherwise:

https://www.bigpinekey.com/wp-content/uploads/economy-dino-300x200.jpg

[ishoot308]

https://www.foxnews.com/health/no-new-coronavirus-cases-lake-of-the-ozarks-pool-parties

Dan

[Biggd]

https://www.foxnews.com/health/no-new-coronavirus-cases-lake-of-the-ozarks-pool-parties

DanMust be "the lake effect". :laugh:

[ishoot308]

Must be "the lake effect". :laugh:

Probably all the pee in the lake disinfected everyone!! Braun bay should be good to go also!! :D

Dan

[Hillcountry]

Probably all the pee in the lake disinfected everyone!! Braun bay should be good to go also!! :D

Dan

Lol...Dan, I believe that would be the “toilet effect”
Someone should go snorkeling there with some kind of test kit...