The Engines

NoBozo · 09-04-2011, 06:01 PM

The M/V Mount Washington recieved a pair of new engines last year under some kind of Stimulus program I think..$1M. What ever happened to the original Enterprise engines. Was there a requirement that the original Enterprise engines be rendered "useless" ....like the Cash for Clunkers program for cars...???? Just wondering..

NB

Just Sold · 09-04-2011, 06:50 PM

The Boat Museum in Wolfeboro has one of the 8 cylinders (we went there yesterday) and the display placard indicates the rest were scrapped.

NHBUOY · 09-04-2011, 07:27 PM

NB...what kind of boat project you got in mind for that motor?

ps: I MISS the "thrum" of the old motors. The Mount is "silent" now .I always won at the Iseethemtfirst cause I could hear it.

fatlazyless · 09-04-2011, 07:46 PM

It was about $750,000 for two new Caterpillar marine diesel engines, painted bright Caterpillar yellow, that use much less fuel, have much lower pollutants in exhaust, and weigh much less than the old 1940's engines.

Cannot blame the Mount for wanting to go for a freebie engine exchange and upgrade courtesy of the U. S. tax-payers.....was just too good to resist a courtesy $750,000 upgrade based on conservative Yankee principals..... whatever that means! If Obama offered me a $750,000 freebie upgrade, I too would salute smartly and say thankyou very much, Mr President!

One big downside to the new engines is they sound very different; gone forever is the old, slow chuga-chuga-chuga sound, which has been replaced by an efficient but very boring sounding, fast putt-putt-putt.

You know, if Mitt would just make a campaign promise to restore that old, slow chuga-chuga-chuga sound to the Mount, then I'll vote for Mitt! Shame on Obama for messing with that iconic chuga-chuga-chuga, traditional Lake Winnipesaukee-M.V. Mount Washington-New Hampshire-Granite State sound......duh!

webmaster · 09-06-2011, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoBozo

What ever happened to the original Enterprise engines.

I have a piece of one:

ishoot308 · 09-06-2011, 11:53 AM

Wow Don! what a great souvenir!!

Dan

NoBozo · 09-06-2011, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NHBUOY

NB...what kind of boat project you got in mind for that motor?

ps: I MISS the "thrum" of the old motors. The Mount is "silent" now .I always won at the Iseethemtfirst cause I could hear it.

Mystic Seaport Museum has a collection of old marine engines, some of which are much larger than the old Mount engines. Many of them are in operating order. Every year they have a marine engine weekend in which they actually run the engines out in the shipyard. They certainly are not environmentally friendly when running but it's interesting to see them. They run each engine for a few minutes every now and then during that weekend. The rest of the year they are dormant.

I would like to have seen one of the Mounts engines go to Mystic Seaport since they were certainly historically significant. You could then still take your grandchildren to the museum and hear that old Thumping that you heard "back in the day".

Lament: A total waste of a valuable historic artifact. (No smiles here for their apparent demise.) NB

LIforrelaxin · 09-06-2011, 12:20 PM

I do believe as part of the stimulus monies, that the Enterprise Engines, had to be rendered useless....

VitaBene · 09-06-2011, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoBozo

Mystic Seaport Museum has a collection of old marine engines, some of which are much larger than the old Mount engines. Many of them are in operating order. Every year they have a marine engine weekend in which they actually run the engines out in the shipyard. They certainly are not environmentally friendly when running but it's interesting to see them. They run each engine for a few minutes every now and then during the weekend. The rest of the year they are dormant.

I would like to have seen one of the Mounts engines go to Mystic Seaport since they were certainly historically significant. You could then still take your grandchildren to the museum and hear that old Thumping that you heard "back in the day".

Lament: A total waste of a valuable historic artifact. (No smiles here for their apparent demise.) NB

Just like the cash for clunkers program, the Enterprise diesels were destroyed as part of grant process.

Charlie T · 09-06-2011, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Sold

The Boat Museum in Wolfeboro has one of the 8 cylinders (we went there yesterday) and the display placard indicates the rest were scrapped.

It's a shame the old engines were scrapped. I've read numerous stories over the years about how the Mt. had to scrounge and scrape to find and buy old engines for parts to keep the Mt. running. It would seem that the Mt's owners should have found a way to preserve those engines and parts so that others who were not as fortunate to get a big Govt. handout could use the parts to keep their machinery running.

NoBozo · 09-06-2011, 12:53 PM

Maybe.. Mystic Seaport already has one and didn't need another one....? Notice how LOW the RPMs are for the various engines. This explains the thump thump thump sound you "used to" hear coming around the point. NB

http://www.tugboatenthusiastsociety....ent-ent-01.htm

JPC · 09-06-2011, 02:37 PM

Something everyone is forgetting is that the transmission was replaced as well. With the old transmission the engines had to be shut down to set the tranny in reverse and then start up again which took about 30 seconds if I remember correctly. With the new tranny its shift on the fly.

skprbob · 09-06-2011, 10:10 PM

The old engine blocks and crank pans were indeed scrapped as a condition of the grant. The other parts are on the market.

The old engines did not have transmissions at all. They were "direct drive" - shaft and propellor connected directly to the crankshaft. The engines were shut down, then restarted in the opposite rotation to achieve reverse. The new engines do have transmissions, so do not need to be shut down to shift just like any other marine transmission.

The commemorative part in Don's picture is a wrist pin cover from a piston.

The Mystic Seaport exhibit is great. Also, for anyone into steam, try the New England Wireless and Steam Museum in East Greenwich, RI on Saturday, October 1. That's the date of their annual "Yankee Steam-Up" engine show. Google it for the details.

Also, remember the Lee's Mills steamboat rally, Sept 9 - 18.

JPC · 09-07-2011, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skprbob

The old engines did not have transmissions at all. They were "direct drive" - shaft and propellor connected directly to the crankshaft.

Wasn't there a gear reducer between the crank and the prop?

skprbob · 09-07-2011, 04:10 PM

No. As I said, direct drive.

NoBozo · 09-07-2011, 06:13 PM

I think most people aren't aware that some diesels can be stopped ...Then restarted ..rotating in the opposite direction. (Running Backwards)

Explanation: Try this: Say the engine normally turns clockwise when driving the boat through the water. When reverse propeller thrust is required...the engine is STOPPED....then the engine is RE-Started ...rotating in the opposite direction. This can't be done with a GAS engine.

The "Pilot" (Captain) of the vessel in question, needs to have his timing correct when docking....and be Confident the engine will restart in the rotation he requires....at the instant he requires it to happen.

As stated above..the OLD engines had no transmissions.

LARGE Marine diesels generally run at ONE set RPM...ALL the time. The RPM is VERY low compared to any Gas engine. The Large Enterprise Diesels ran at 360 RPM..ALL the time and made Large Horsepower.

Unlike a BIG diesel..A gas engine will normally NOT run at less than 600 RPM. It will stall. At 600 RPM a gas engine is idling, and will be making essentially NO Horsepower

NB

GM doc · 09-07-2011, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoBozo

I think most people aren't aware that some diesels can be stopped ...Then restarted ..rotating in the opposite direction. (Running Backwards)

Explanation: Try this: Say the engine normally turns clockwise when driving the boat through the water. When reverse propeller thrust is required...the engine is STOPPED....then the engine is RE-Started ...rotating in the opposite direction. This can't be done with a GAS engine.

The "Pilot" (Captain) of the vessel in question, needs to have his timing correct when docking....and be Confident the engine will restart in the rotation he requires....at the instant he requires it to happen.

As stated above..the OLD engines had no transmissions.

LARGE Marine diesels generally run at ONE set RPM...ALL the time. The RPM is VERY low compared to any Gas engine. The Large Enterprise Diesels ran at 360 RPM..ALL the time and made Large Horsepower.

Unlike a BIG diesel..A gas engine will normally NOT run at less than 600 RPM. It will stall. At 600 RPM a gas engine is idling, and will be making essentially NO Horsepower

NB

So then the exhaust will exit from what some would call the intake side of the engine also. right? I would think that when the engine shut down, someone would "switch a gear that turns the "coupler" in the reverse direction. But I could be wrong.

skprbob · 09-07-2011, 09:23 PM

When they were new, the Mount's Enterprises had an rpm range of about 200 up to about 450. In their later years, they were not run above 390 to 400 unless absolutely necessary.

The new Cats idle at 550 and max at 1860. They're equipped with 4-to-1 reduction transmissions, giving shaft speeds of 137 to 465. Thus, a slower "dead slow" and a faster "flank" speed. "Full speed" is normally about 410.

trfour · 09-08-2011, 12:21 AM

"The new Cats idle at 550 and max at 1860. They're equipped with 4-to-1 reduction transmissions, giving shaft speeds of 137 to 465. Thus, a slower "dead slow" and a faster "flank" speed. "Full speed" is normally about 410."[/QUOTE]

Yup, and Do Not Try To Run These Engines In A Reverse Rotation, as you will foul the air filters, and create a very thick black plume of smoke, reversing their intended intake and exhaust functions!
The old Enterprise engines had a mechanically engaged system to change the camshaft and valve timing to facilitate running them in a reverse rotation. Now, if one of these mechanical links ever failed, between the Captains bridge, and the engine room, The M/S Mount Washington would long and since have pushed all of us over into our Neighboring Vermont by now!

Terry
________________________

VitaBene · 09-08-2011, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoBozo

I think most people aren't aware that some diesels can be stopped ...Then restarted ..rotating in the opposite direction. (Running Backwards)

Explanation: Try this: Say the engine normally turns clockwise when driving the boat through the water. When reverse propeller thrust is required...the engine is STOPPED....then the engine is RE-Started ...rotating in the opposite direction. This can't be done with a GAS engine.

The "Pilot" (Captain) of the vessel in question, needs to have his timing correct when docking....and be Confident the engine will restart in the rotation he requires....at the instant he requires it to happen.

As stated above..the OLD engines had no transmissions.

LARGE Marine diesels generally run at ONE set RPM...ALL the time. The RPM is VERY low compared to any Gas engine. The Large Enterprise Diesels ran at 360 RPM..ALL the time and made Large Horsepower.

Unlike a BIG diesel..A gas engine will normally NOT run at less than 600 RPM. It will stall. At 600 RPM a gas engine is idling, and will be making essentially NO Horsepower

NB

Not to nitpick but almost every modern snowmobile engine with electronic reverse runs backwards when the button is pushed.

JPC · 09-08-2011, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skprbob

When they were new, the Mount's Enterprises had an rpm range of about 200 up to about 450. In their later years, they were not run above 390 to 400 unless absolutely necessary.

The new Cats idle at 550 and max at 1860. They're equipped with 4-to-1 reduction transmissions, giving shaft speeds of 137 to 465. Thus, a slower "dead slow" and a faster "flank" speed. "Full speed" is normally about 410.

I stand corrected. I new the engines had to be shut down to go into reverse but did not realize that the actual engine reversed rotation rather then some kind of gear reversal. That and the low RPM.

TiltonBB · 09-08-2011, 08:00 AM

You can actually run a modern diesel engine in reverse. It will exhaust through the air cleaner and intake through the muffler. Usually this is done by accident when the starter button is momentarily pushed and catches the engine at exactly the wrong point in its cycle. It is almost impossible to do on purpose.

In a truck with a 10 speed transmission you will have 10 gears in reverse and your reverse will move you forward.

When this happens, the older standard manual shut downs which consisted of cutting off the air intake should not be used because the exhaust pressure going out the intake will cause damage. The best method to stop a diesel engine that is running backwards is to put it in a higher gear, hold the brake down, and let the clutch up to stall it.

robmac · 09-08-2011, 11:12 AM

what parts are for sale? any small parts similar to Don's ? I would like something to comemorate a bygone era.

Grant · 09-09-2011, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by webmaster

I have a piece of one:

That's pretty sweet!

The Watcher · 09-10-2011, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

You can actually run a modern diesel engine in reverse. It will exhaust through the air cleaner and intake through the muffler. Usually this is done by accident when the starter button is momentarily pushed and catches the engine at exactly the wrong point in its cycle. It is almost impossible to do on purpose.

In a truck with a 10 speed transmission you will have 10 gears in reverse and your reverse will move you forward.

When this happens, the older standard manual shut downs which consisted of cutting off the air intake should not be used because the exhaust pressure going out the intake will cause damage. The best method to stop a diesel engine that is running backwards is to put it in a higher gear, hold the brake down, and let the clutch up to stall it.

Needs to be shut down quickly because the oil pump is running backwards as well (zero oil pressure).

09-04-2011, 06:01 PM	#1
NoBozo Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Portsmouth. RI Posts: 2,231 Thanks: 400 Thanked 460 Times in 308 Posts	The Engines The M/V Mount Washington recieved a pair of new engines last year under some kind of Stimulus program I think..$1M. What ever happened to the original Enterprise engines. Was there a requirement that the original Enterprise engines be rendered "useless" ....like the Cash for Clunkers program for cars...???? Just wondering.. NB

09-04-2011, 06:50 PM	#2
Just Sold Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Suncook, NH, but at The Lake at Heart Posts: 2,612 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 433 Times in 209 Posts	The Boat Museum in Wolfeboro has one of the 8 cylinders (we went there yesterday) and the display placard indicates the rest were scrapped. __________________ Just Sold At the lake the stress of daily life just melts away. Pro Re Nata Last edited by Just Sold; 09-04-2011 at 07:28 PM.

09-04-2011, 07:46 PM	#4
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,528 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 296 Thanked 957 Times in 698 Posts	It was about $750,000 for two new Caterpillar marine diesel engines, painted bright Caterpillar yellow, that use much less fuel, have much lower pollutants in exhaust, and weigh much less than the old 1940's engines. Cannot blame the Mount for wanting to go for a freebie engine exchange and upgrade courtesy of the U. S. tax-payers.....was just too good to resist a courtesy $750,000 upgrade based on conservative Yankee principals..... whatever that means! If Obama offered me a $750,000 freebie upgrade, I too would salute smartly and say thankyou very much, Mr President! One big downside to the new engines is they sound very different; gone forever is the old, slow chuga-chuga-chuga sound, which has been replaced by an efficient but very boring sounding, fast putt-putt-putt. You know, if Mitt would just make a campaign promise to restore that old, slow chuga-chuga-chuga sound to the Mount, then I'll vote for Mitt! Shame on Obama for messing with that iconic chuga-chuga-chuga, traditional Lake Winnipesaukee-M.V. Mount Washington-New Hampshire-Granite State sound......duh! __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake! Last edited by fatlazyless; 09-08-2011 at 07:36 AM.

09-06-2011, 12:20 PM	#8
LIforrelaxin Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Long Island, not that one, the one on Winnipesaukee Posts: 2,827 Thanks: 1,017 Thanked 881 Times in 515 Posts	I do believe as part of the stimulus monies, that the Enterprise Engines, had to be rendered useless.... __________________ Life is about how much time you can spend relaxing... I do it on an island that isn't really an island.....

09-06-2011, 12:53 PM	#11
NoBozo Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Portsmouth. RI Posts: 2,231 Thanks: 400 Thanked 460 Times in 308 Posts	Enterprise Diesel Maybe.. Mystic Seaport already has one and didn't need another one....? Notice how LOW the RPMs are for the various engines. This explains the thump thump thump sound you "used to" hear coming around the point. NB http://www.tugboatenthusiastsociety....ent-ent-01.htm

09-04-2011, 07:27 PM	#3
NHBUOY Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Loon Mtn. winters...Meredith Neck summers Posts: 398 Thanks: 288 Thanked 94 Times in 60 Posts	NB...what kind of boat project you got in mind for that motor? ps: I MISS the "thrum" of the old motors. The Mount is "silent" now .I always won at the Iseethemtfirst cause I could hear it.

The Following User Says Thank You to webmaster For This Useful Post:
Argie's Wife (09-11-2011)

09-06-2011, 11:53 AM	#6
ishoot308 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Gilford, NH / Welch Island Posts: 5,932 Thanks: 2,290 Thanked 4,943 Times in 1,918 Posts	Wow Don! what a great souvenir!! Dan

The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to NoBozo For This Useful Post:
NHBUOY (09-06-2011), Tallyho (09-06-2011)

09-06-2011, 02:37 PM	#12
JPC Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Milford, NH Posts: 159 Thanks: 42 Thanked 16 Times in 14 Posts	New engine & new tranny Something everyone is forgetting is that the transmission was replaced as well. With the old transmission the engines had to be shut down to set the tranny in reverse and then start up again which took about 30 seconds if I remember correctly. With the new tranny its shift on the fly.

09-06-2011, 10:10 PM	#13
skprbob Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: 19 Mile Bay Posts: 147 Thanks: 0 Thanked 90 Times in 29 Posts	The old engine blocks and crank pans were indeed scrapped as a condition of the grant. The other parts are on the market. The old engines did not have transmissions at all. They were "direct drive" - shaft and propellor connected directly to the crankshaft. The engines were shut down, then restarted in the opposite rotation to achieve reverse. The new engines do have transmissions, so do not need to be shut down to shift just like any other marine transmission. The commemorative part in Don's picture is a wrist pin cover from a piston. The Mystic Seaport exhibit is great. Also, for anyone into steam, try the New England Wireless and Steam Museum in East Greenwich, RI on Saturday, October 1. That's the date of their annual "Yankee Steam-Up" engine show. Google it for the details. Also, remember the Lee's Mills steamboat rally, Sept 9 - 18. Last edited by skprbob; 09-07-2011 at 08:33 AM. Reason: added an item

09-07-2011, 04:10 PM	#15
skprbob Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: 19 Mile Bay Posts: 147 Thanks: 0 Thanked 90 Times in 29 Posts	gear reducer? No. As I said, direct drive.

09-07-2011, 06:13 PM	#16
NoBozo Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Portsmouth. RI Posts: 2,231 Thanks: 400 Thanked 460 Times in 308 Posts	I think most people aren't aware that some diesels can be stopped ...Then restarted ..rotating in the opposite direction. (Running Backwards) Explanation: Try this: Say the engine normally turns clockwise when driving the boat through the water. When reverse propeller thrust is required...the engine is STOPPED....then the engine is RE-Started ...rotating in the opposite direction. This can't be done with a GAS engine. The "Pilot" (Captain) of the vessel in question, needs to have his timing correct when docking....and be Confident the engine will restart in the rotation he requires....at the instant he requires it to happen. As stated above..the OLD engines had no transmissions. LARGE Marine diesels generally run at ONE set RPM...ALL the time. The RPM is VERY low compared to any Gas engine. The Large Enterprise Diesels ran at 360 RPM..ALL the time and made Large Horsepower. Unlike a BIG diesel..A gas engine will normally NOT run at less than 600 RPM. It will stall. At 600 RPM a gas engine is idling, and will be making essentially NO Horsepower NB Last edited by NoBozo; 09-07-2011 at 06:43 PM.

09-07-2011, 09:23 PM	#18
skprbob Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: 19 Mile Bay Posts: 147 Thanks: 0 Thanked 90 Times in 29 Posts	When they were new, the Mount's Enterprises had an rpm range of about 200 up to about 450. In their later years, they were not run above 390 to 400 unless absolutely necessary. The new Cats idle at 550 and max at 1860. They're equipped with 4-to-1 reduction transmissions, giving shaft speeds of 137 to 465. Thus, a slower "dead slow" and a faster "flank" speed. "Full speed" is normally about 410.

09-08-2011, 12:21 AM	#19
trfour Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The Lakes, Central NH. and Dallas/Fort Worth TX. Posts: 3,694 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: 3,069 Thanked 472 Times in 236 Posts	"The new Cats idle at 550 and max at 1860. They're equipped with 4-to-1 reduction transmissions, giving shaft speeds of 137 to 465. Thus, a slower "dead slow" and a faster "flank" speed. "Full speed" is normally about 410."[/QUOTE] Yup, and Do Not Try To Run These Engines In A Reverse Rotation, as you will foul the air filters, and create a very thick black plume of smoke, reversing their intended intake and exhaust functions! The old Enterprise engines had a mechanically engaged system to change the camshaft and valve timing to facilitate running them in a reverse rotation. Now, if one of these mechanical links ever failed, between the Captains bridge, and the engine room, The M/S Mount Washington would long and since have pushed all of us over into our Neighboring Vermont by now! Terry ________________________ __________________ *trfour* Always Remember, The Best Safety Device In The Boat, or on a PWC Snowmobile etc., Is YOU! Safe sledding tips and much more; http://www.snowmobile.org/snowmobiling-safety.html

09-08-2011, 08:00 AM	#22
TiltonBB Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Gilford, NH and Florida Posts: 2,897 Thanks: 644 Thanked 2,153 Times in 900 Posts	Engines in reverse You can actually run a modern diesel engine in reverse. It will exhaust through the air cleaner and intake through the muffler. Usually this is done by accident when the starter button is momentarily pushed and catches the engine at exactly the wrong point in its cycle. It is almost impossible to do on purpose. In a truck with a 10 speed transmission you will have 10 gears in reverse and your reverse will move you forward. When this happens, the older standard manual shut downs which consisted of cutting off the air intake should not be used because the exhaust pressure going out the intake will cause damage. The best method to stop a diesel engine that is running backwards is to put it in a higher gear, hold the brake down, and let the clutch up to stall it.

09-08-2011, 11:12 AM	#23
robmac Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Nashua,Meredith Posts: 951 Thanks: 213 Thanked 106 Times in 81 Posts	what parts are for sale? any small parts similar to Don's ? I would like something to comemorate a bygone era.