Partial winterization

jvbtapatalk · 10-10-2015, 07:39 PM

I am a new homeowner on the lake, and am looking for a "part-way" winterization option -- if a safe one exists.

Over the fall and winter we plan to travel up every ~1-2 weeks for weekend visits (our primary home is 2 hours away). I have read several very helpful past threads about winterization -- however most strategies deal with full winterization (fully draining pipes, all appliances, etc). If we performed this every week only to return a week later it would end up being quite the time investment.

I was imagining a half-way approach that might include:
- keeping home at ~50-55 degrees while gone
- opening cabinets with pipes below
- pouring antifreeze into drains and toilets
- turning off main water feed from well (esp to prevent damage if there is a freeze)

I am worried, however, about a power outage (forced air won't work with power out). I also am not sure if there is anything else I should do to protect the well.

Any suggestions are much appreciated!

If there is no real "half measure" would also appreciate tips on how to make ~weekly process as quick as possible.

brk-lnt · 10-10-2015, 07:51 PM

Our place is a true "year round" condo, and is built and insulated for year round use. Some of the below suggestions may vary based on the insulation rating of your place.

We come up frequently throughout the winter, but if I'm working on a project at home it can be 3-4 weeks between visits, so we do a "half winterization" any time we leave after Halloween.

Roughly:
Set heat back to 50F
Turn of main water valve
Open faucets to let majority of water drain out.
We leave cabinets closed, but that is mostly because the majority of our plumbing is on interior walls and the cabinets don't get particularly frigid.

Even if you lose power it will take a while before it gets to freezing temps inside. The way I look at it is that we're close enough (~90 minutes away) that if we get an extended power outage during particularly low temps I might have to drive up mid week or something to ensure everything is OK. So far in the 9 years we've had our place that hasn't been a problem.

I have a thermostat that I can check remotely to monitor temps and kick on the heat if necessary. That also mostly lets me track power outages (sometimes power is on but metrocast is out, so I can't be 100% certain that power is on, but if PSNH isn't reporting any outages I'm probably OK).

One thing to keep in mind is that sporadic usage can lead to more potential for ice dams if you're not careful. Kicking the heat up, you'll get heat loss through the ceilings and that will melt the snow directly on top of the roof, causing sudden run-off, which will freeze when it hits the edge of the roof. Keeping rooms at a more steady temp (hi or low) reduces this. So I'd also invest in a roof rake and keep the roof clear when you're up there.

jvbtapatalk · 10-10-2015, 08:21 PM

Very helpful! Thank you

ITD · 10-10-2015, 08:22 PM

Need to know a little more about the house, does it have a cellar, are we talking central heat? Insulated?

jvbtapatalk · 10-10-2015, 10:05 PM

Thanks.
Central heat -- forced air in attic.
There is not a cellar, but crawl space under home is insulated on all sides, with a vent coming down from attic to maintain some heat. Pipes and well located in that crawl space.
Previous occupants lived here year round, so had home relatively well insulated.

ITD · 10-11-2015, 07:40 AM

I think you just have to be concerned about freezing pipes with the lowered heat in the crawl space. I'd make sure there are no gross outside air leaks in the crawl space. I would also do the things brk int suggested, especially the freeze alarm, maybe two, with one located in the crawl space. It sounds like the house is pretty well set up, but you won't know until it gets cold.

Kamper · 10-11-2015, 07:57 AM

You can get a battery backup for the furnace. Depending on how many 'cells' it has, they can keep you going quite a while (days).

The most expensive part of the set-up will probably be an automatic switch. You'd probably use the same part as automatic generators use to trip the transfer switch.

Good luck!

moose tracks · 10-11-2015, 08:25 AM

If you are worried about a power outage or the temperature in your home dropping I would suggest looking into a home protection system like one offered by SimpliSafe. You can remotely monitor your house from your smart phone or computer. It will alert you on power outages, home intrusions, flooding and a drop in the home temperature. It will work without power and no phone lines are need because it works off an independent cellular connection. Cost is about $25.00 per month plus initial purchase cost of between $300 to $600. No service contract and you can install it yourself. Company is out of Boston. (Simplisafe.com)

brk-lnt · 10-11-2015, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamper

You can get a battery backup for the furnace. Depending on how many 'cells' it has, they can keep you going quite a while (days).

The most expensive part of the set-up will probably be an automatic switch. You'd probably use the same part as automatic generators use to trip the transfer switch.

Good luck!

For a single device or two (like a furnace) it would be easier to just use a mid-sized UPS. No transfer switch necessary. You'd have to check the furnace ratings though, the blowers for a FHA system can sometimes have a moderately high power draw. And if it's an oil furnace, the oil pump is probably 1/3 HP (roughly 220 watts).

Kamper · 10-11-2015, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

For a single device or two (like a furnace) it would be easier to just use a mid-sized UPS. ...

A typical furnace circuit is 15 amps. At minimal out put my UPS is rated for two hours. My typical furnace cycle has been maybe 15 minutes per hour so using mine as an example (Assuming it's it can handle 15 amps, and the furnace draws at the minimal load level. I'm too lazy to go look right now), it will keep the heat on for 4 hours, theoretically. It was about the middle size of what is offered at Staples and I paid $2-300 for it, five years ago for my work-at-home office.

As it is, when my power cuts out, it says I have 20 minutes of power. This is adequate to fire up my generator and run a cord to my UPS which also functions nicely as a power distribution node.

IMO. The O/P can do much better with a few deep-cycle dry/gel cells and a transformer to prepare for any long term outage if all he wants is heat. Anything more serious and we'd be talking about a generator or solar cell set-up.

Rusty · 10-11-2015, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamper

IMO. The O/P can do much better with a few deep-cycle dry/gel cells and a transformer to prepare for any long term outage if all he wants is heat. Anything more serious and we'd be talking about a generator or solar cell set-up.

Do you mean Inverter and not "transformer"?

Kamper · 10-11-2015, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty

Do you mean Inverter and not "transformer"?

Yam. Sweet potato.

Thanks

brk-lnt · 10-11-2015, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamper

A typical furnace circuit is 15 amps. At minimal out put my UPS is rated for two hours.

These two statements are about as relevant as saying "my car is red" and "I had steak for dinner last night".

In household setups, a 15A circuit is generally the smallest you see, and furnaces are usually on a dedicated circuit. So all this tells us is that your furnace uses anywhere between 1 and 15Amps (well, more like 1 and 12Amps).

UPS's have two primary ratings:
1) The max load they can handle (The VA rating)
2) The runtime for a given load (which is usually less than max).

Inverter circuitry makes up the VA rating, and the number/size of batteries make up the runtime. You could have 2 different 500Va UPS's, where one could run a given load for 10 minutes, and another with more batteries could run the same load for an hour.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamper

My typical furnace cycle has been maybe 15 minutes per hour so using mine as an example (Assuming it's it can handle 15 amps, and the furnace draws at the minimal load level. I'm too lazy to go look right now),

Your UPS almost certainly can't handle anywhere near 15 Amps. A 1500VA UPS can handle about 900 *watts*, which is roughly 7.5 Amps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamper

IMO. The O/P can do much better with a few deep-cycle dry/gel cells and a transformer to prepare for any long term outage if all he wants is heat. Anything more serious and we'd be talking about a generator or solar cell set-up.

Maybe, but you'd still want the whole thing wired in-line, so that the heat can come on when you're not there. Otherwise it's no good having a power setup that is just sitting idle while your pipes freeze and you're 100 miles away...

Fundamentally, yes, if he wants the optimal setup from a cost perspective, buy the cheapest inverter that will handle the startup surge current of the furnace, at put as much budget as possible to batteries for max runtime. Then wire it all up properly, being sure to make sure you have adequate wire gauge and connections, and all that.

HellRaZoR004 · 10-11-2015, 07:07 PM

I would also be very careful with using a UPS to power your furnace. With a typical UPS, unless you get a Smart UPS (which are very expensive), you risk damaging the electronics in newer furnaces. The controller board needs very clean AC power, of which a typical UPS will not provide.

The same is true for some portable generators. I had a coworker fry the controller board on his new Lennox furnace a couple years back because the Total Harmonic Distortion (i.e. distortion of the input voltage) was not sufficient.

ITD · 10-11-2015, 07:25 PM

Hmmmm, I'm not sure most of your off the shelf ups systems would be reliable for running a furnace, especially a forced hot air furnace. The motor loads are high and the starting currents are huge, most ups systems will not work reliably unless it is designed specifically for the purpose. A generator would be best for this purpose.

Kamper · 10-12-2015, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

... "my car is red" ... "I had steak for dinner last night". ...

Thanks for the additional details. I try to not get lost in the minutiae but sometimes that means things get left out.

LIforrelaxin · 10-13-2015, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HellRaZoR004

The same is true for some portable generators. I had a coworker fry the controller board on his new Lennox furnace a couple years back because the Total Harmonic Distortion (i.e. distortion of the input voltage) was not sufficient.

The problem with portable generators is not THD.... the problem with many generators is that they don't regulate the voltage well enough, and spike at 130 or 140 volts which most modern electronic don't handle, and if not fused correctly the electronics get fried when this happens.....

Phantom · 10-13-2015, 07:39 AM

All good advice above, but another step we take is to shut off (circuit breaker) the Hot water tank ..... no need in keeping that going

.

Rusty · 10-13-2015, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

The problem with portable generators is not THD.... the problem with many generators is that they don't regulate the voltage well enough, and spike at 130 or 140 volts which most modern electronic don't handle, and if not fused correctly the electronics get fried when this happens.....

You are correct and that is why I have a Honda Generator with inverter technology. Some other generators probably have inverters but I like Honda.

HellRaZoR004 · 10-13-2015, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

The problem with portable generators is not THD.... the problem with many generators is that they don't regulate the voltage well enough, and spike at 130 or 140 volts which most modern electronic don't handle, and if not fused correctly the electronics get fried when this happens.....

The output regulation is covered under Total Harmonic Distortion. For those interested this summarizes it pretty well. Well known standby generators will specify the maximum THD.

http://www.aptsources.com/resources/...Distortion.pdf

jbolty · 10-13-2015, 09:50 AM

I would not worry so much about back up power and concentrate on getting the water out of the lines. My dad and I used to put a number of camps to bed every year and we just put anti freeze in the toilets and sink traps then made sure the water pipes were drained and left open. Where you run into trouble is if there is a low spot in the pipe that can't be drained. In that case if you have access put in a drain or blow the pipes out with compressed air; not too much pressure. The pipe won't burst from freezing unless they are full of water with no room for the ice to expand.

If the power does go out and a generator kicks on or a battery how long will that last? Unless you have a serious generator it will run out of gas in 3-4 hours.

My next thought is to have someone available to check in on the place once in a while and for sure if the power fails.

PS don't forget to drain the hose and internals of the washing machine and ice maker.

10-10-2015, 07:39 PM	#1
jvbtapatalk Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Partial winterization I am a new homeowner on the lake, and am looking for a "part-way" winterization option -- if a safe one exists. Over the fall and winter we plan to travel up every ~1-2 weeks for weekend visits (our primary home is 2 hours away). I have read several very helpful past threads about winterization -- however most strategies deal with full winterization (fully draining pipes, all appliances, etc). If we performed this every week only to return a week later it would end up being quite the time investment. I was imagining a half-way approach that might include: - keeping home at ~50-55 degrees while gone - opening cabinets with pipes below - pouring antifreeze into drains and toilets - turning off main water feed from well (esp to prevent damage if there is a freeze) I am worried, however, about a power outage (forced air won't work with power out). I also am not sure if there is anything else I should do to protect the well. Any suggestions are much appreciated! If there is no real "half measure" would also appreciate tips on how to make ~weekly process as quick as possible.

10-10-2015, 07:51 PM	#2
brk-lnt Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: South Down Shores Posts: 1,938 Thanks: 533 Thanked 568 Times in 334 Posts	Our place is a true "year round" condo, and is built and insulated for year round use. Some of the below suggestions may vary based on the insulation rating of your place. We come up frequently throughout the winter, but if I'm working on a project at home it can be 3-4 weeks between visits, so we do a "half winterization" any time we leave after Halloween. Roughly: Set heat back to 50F Turn of main water valve Open faucets to let majority of water drain out. We leave cabinets closed, but that is mostly because the majority of our plumbing is on interior walls and the cabinets don't get particularly frigid. Even if you lose power it will take a while before it gets to freezing temps inside. The way I look at it is that we're close enough (~90 minutes away) that if we get an extended power outage during particularly low temps I might have to drive up mid week or something to ensure everything is OK. So far in the 9 years we've had our place that hasn't been a problem. I have a thermostat that I can check remotely to monitor temps and kick on the heat if necessary. That also mostly lets me track power outages (sometimes power is on but metrocast is out, so I can't be 100% certain that power is on, but if PSNH isn't reporting any outages I'm probably OK). One thing to keep in mind is that sporadic usage can lead to more potential for ice dams if you're not careful. Kicking the heat up, you'll get heat loss through the ceilings and that will melt the snow directly on top of the roof, causing sudden run-off, which will freeze when it hits the edge of the roof. Keeping rooms at a more steady temp (hi or low) reduces this. So I'd also invest in a roof rake and keep the roof clear when you're up there. __________________ [insert witty phrase here]

10-11-2015, 08:25 AM	#8
moose tracks Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Loudon, Tennessee, foothills of the Great Smoky Mountains Posts: 283 Thanks: 340 Thanked 41 Times in 33 Posts	Home Protection Service If you are worried about a power outage or the temperature in your home dropping I would suggest looking into a home protection system like one offered by SimpliSafe. You can remotely monitor your house from your smart phone or computer. It will alert you on power outages, home intrusions, flooding and a drop in the home temperature. It will work without power and no phone lines are need because it works off an independent cellular connection. Cost is about $25.00 per month plus initial purchase cost of between $300 to $600. No service contract and you can install it yourself. Company is out of Boston. (Simplisafe.com) __________________ Moose Tracks

10-11-2015, 07:07 PM	#14
HellRaZoR004 Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Litchfield/Gilford Posts: 828 Thanks: 233 Thanked 224 Times in 131 Posts	Just be cautious I would also be very careful with using a UPS to power your furnace. With a typical UPS, unless you get a Smart UPS (which are very expensive), you risk damaging the electronics in newer furnaces. The controller board needs very clean AC power, of which a typical UPS will not provide. The same is true for some portable generators. I had a coworker fry the controller board on his new Lennox furnace a couple years back because the Total Harmonic Distortion (i.e. distortion of the input voltage) was not sufficient.

10-13-2015, 07:39 AM	#18
Phantom Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Berlin, Ma / Gilford Posts: 1,931 Thanks: 445 Thanked 604 Times in 340 Posts	All good advice above, but another step we take is to shut off (circuit breaker) the Hot water tank ..... no need in keeping that going . __________________ *A bad day on the Big Lake (although I've never had one) - Still beats a day at the office!!*

10-10-2015, 08:21 PM	#3
jvbtapatalk Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Very helpful! Thank you

10-10-2015, 08:22 PM	#4
ITD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 2,860 Thanks: 461 Thanked 666 Times in 366 Posts	Need to know a little more about the house, does it have a cellar, are we talking central heat? Insulated?

10-10-2015, 10:05 PM	#5
jvbtapatalk Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks. Central heat -- forced air in attic. There is not a cellar, but crawl space under home is insulated on all sides, with a vent coming down from attic to maintain some heat. Pipes and well located in that crawl space. Previous occupants lived here year round, so had home relatively well insulated.

10-11-2015, 07:40 AM	#6
ITD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 2,860 Thanks: 461 Thanked 666 Times in 366 Posts	I think you just have to be concerned about freezing pipes with the lowered heat in the crawl space. I'd make sure there are no gross outside air leaks in the crawl space. I would also do the things brk int suggested, especially the freeze alarm, maybe two, with one located in the crawl space. It sounds like the house is pretty well set up, but you won't know until it gets cold.

10-11-2015, 07:57 AM	#7
Kamper Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Thornton's Ferry Posts: 1,296 Thanks: 67 Thanked 166 Times in 126 Posts	You can get a battery backup for the furnace. Depending on how many 'cells' it has, they can keep you going quite a while (days). The most expensive part of the set-up will probably be an automatic switch. You'd probably use the same part as automatic generators use to trip the transfer switch. Good luck!

10-11-2015, 07:25 PM	#15
ITD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 2,860 Thanks: 461 Thanked 666 Times in 366 Posts	Hmmmm, I'm not sure most of your off the shelf ups systems would be reliable for running a furnace, especially a forced hot air furnace. The motor loads are high and the starting currents are huge, most ups systems will not work reliably unless it is designed specifically for the purpose. A generator would be best for this purpose.

The Following User Says Thank You to LIforrelaxin For This Useful Post:
Rusty (10-13-2015)

The Following User Says Thank You to HellRaZoR004 For This Useful Post:
Rusty (10-13-2015)

10-13-2015, 09:50 AM	#21
jbolty Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 653 Thanks: 312 Thanked 244 Times in 143 Posts	I would not worry so much about back up power and concentrate on getting the water out of the lines. My dad and I used to put a number of camps to bed every year and we just put anti freeze in the toilets and sink traps then made sure the water pipes were drained and left open. Where you run into trouble is if there is a low spot in the pipe that can't be drained. In that case if you have access put in a drain or blow the pipes out with compressed air; not too much pressure. The pipe won't burst from freezing unless they are full of water with no room for the ice to expand. If the power does go out and a generator kicks on or a battery how long will that last? Unless you have a serious generator it will run out of gas in 3-4 hours. My next thought is to have someone available to check in on the place once in a while and for sure if the power fails. PS don't forget to drain the hose and internals of the washing machine and ice maker.