Suggestions on other heat sources than electric

[Lucy Goose]

Hi folks,

We have electric heat in our home and want to be able to use it year round. We have been looking into some supplemental ideas but I just wondered what everyone had else had for ideas or has used and liked or not liked.

thanks,

Lucy Goose

[dpg]

In no specific order:

1) Wood
2) Gas
3) oil

[Slickcraft]

If you want to be able to set a thermostat for heat while you are away then install an oil burner and replace the electric units on at least the 1st floor.

If you are looking for supplemental heat only while you are there then a wood stove or pellet stove might work out. We burned wood for 25+ years at home and still have a wood stove over at camp. However care and feeding of a wood stove is a lot of work. Three years ago we switched to a pellet stove at home and really like it. Keep the hopper full, set the thermostat and do a quick cleaning once a day.

[Grady223]

Originally Posted by Slickcraft

If you want to be able to set a thermostat for heat while you are away then install an oil burner and replace the electric units on at least the 1st floor.

If you are looking for supplemental heat only while you are there then a wood stove or pellet stove might work out. We burned wood for 25+ years at home and still have a wood stove over at camp. However care and feeding of a wood stove is a lot of work. Three years ago we switched to a pellet stove at home and really like it. Keep the hopper full, set the thermostat and do a quick cleaning once a day.

Slick;

How much in pellets do you use? Thinking of one for the Island but I am concerned about carting bags of pellets. Will be using, I guess, May, Sept & Oct. How much a bag is it? Will it be a fire that the grandkids will enjoy?

Thanks,
Grady

[Grady223]

Originally Posted by Lucy Goose

Hi folks,

We have electric heat in our home and want to be able to use it year round. We have been looking into some supplemental ideas but I just wondered what everyone had else had for ideas or has used and liked or not liked.

thanks,

Lucy Goose

Have a couple of friends that have Monitor type kerosene heaters (some of the non-American brands make better units than Monitor). They are easy to install and can run off kerosene you cart and fill the unit with or a central tank which you can hook several units to. They are very efficient.

http://www.toyotomiusa.com/products/...tedHeaters.php

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by Grady223

Slick;

How much in pellets do you use? Thinking of one for the Island but I am concerned about carting bags of pellets. Will be using, I guess, May, Sept & Oct. How much a bag is it? Will it be a fire that the grandkids will enjoy?

Thanks,
Grady

Grady,
We run the pellet stove full time all winter in our house averaging one bag a day mid winter. However we use much less fuel spring and fall, only about 15 bags for all of April and May this year.

I have thought of a pellet stove on the island but we will probably stick with the wood stove out there. If we did have a pellet stove on the island I would guess that 20 bags would do for May, Sept and Oct. We paid about $5/bag last winter so the cost and transport of 20+ bags to the island is not a big deal. It is the cost of the stove and install, probably 2.5K to 3.5K, that is the issue as well as plenty of free fire wood on the island.

The grandkids enjoy the pellet stove fire at the house and one would be a lot more convenient than wood on the island. Load the hopper, hit the start button, set the thermostat.

[Formula260SS]

Originally Posted by Grady223

Have a couple of friends that have Monitor type kerosene heaters (some of the non-American brands make better units than Monitor). They are easy to install and can run off kerosene you cart and fill the unit with or a central tank which you can hook several units to. They are very efficient.

http://www.toyotomiusa.com/products/...tedHeaters.php

We have a Rinnai propane vented heater and love it, takes the chill out in the spring and fall. In the winter with the wood stove going it circulates the heat evenly throughout the cottage as well. Our wood stove will only burn for about 4-5 hours but the with Rinnai going we wake up to about 65 degrees during the ice fishing derby

[Turtle Boy]

Just put 2 new Rinnai heaters in the cottage...what a difference. EZ to use, efficient, and no pilot to light which makes a huge difference for us from before. Also uses less gas because of the pilotless system. I was told they are more reliable than the Monitor heater. Will use the Rinnai as backup pretty much for the wood stove. Good luck.

[Lucy Goose]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Just put 2 new Rinnai heaters in the cottage...what a difference. EZ to use, efficient, and no pilot to light which makes a huge difference for us from before. Also uses less gas because of the pilotless system. I was told they are more reliable than the Monitor heater. Will use the Rinnai as backup pretty much for the wood stove. Good luck.

May I ask where you got them, who installed etc. Also, how are they noise wise?

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by Lucy Goose

May I ask where you got them, who installed etc. Also, how are they noise wise?

They are very quiet...I don't recall noise being a problem; only used them once or twice and they work so well that they turn off quickly. Just about any heating contractor can obtain and install them. Good luck.

[ossipeeboater]

rinnai direct vent furnace on propane or monitor or toyo on K1. Install easy and are pretty effecient. I heat my place to 50 all winter long plus bring it to temp on weekends we are there and it's between 400-600 year depending on propane prices.

[robmac]

I have an Empire gas fired ventless heater,they make them for both propane and natural gas. Very easy to install,efficient,low cost to operate. Have installed a few of them and the people love them and NO problems for years.

[HEP170DW]

First off I'll fess up and let you know I'm in the HVAC business. We live and work local so I like to check in this forum periodically to see whats on folks minds.
You could consider and Air Exchange Heat Pump / AC for an extremely efficient heat source, especially in the spring / fall. You get AC as a bonus for those few sticky weeks / days in summer. We've installed several on the islands, matter of fact just put one in on Melody Island off Wolfboro Bay yesterday.
Do some research, just google "Air Exchange Heat Pump" you'll find they use low wattage to produce lots of heat. The newest models are even better than the info you'll find on the web. The technology for heating has leaped in the last couple years.
Electric is only used to circulate the refrigerant, controls and DC fan. The units have a reversing valve so in heating the liquid phase changes to gas outside and absorbs energy and transfers it inside as heat (kind've like a refrigerator).
I have a small unit and I use it way more for heating than cooling. It saved me over 200 gls of oil this past winter. As a matter of fact it's 57F out and my heat pump is keeping my house warm for pennies today.

[Dr. Green]

As to the original question about supplementing electric heat (or better - replacing electric heat), we are building an off-grid solar electric home heated by solar hot water (evacuated tubes and underfloor radiant heating) with a masonry stove for back-up heat for the water (capturing heat from the stove and transferring it to the water tank). In addition, the house is high thermal mass, with a greenhouse on the south side. Thus our ONLY energy cost will be about 1 cord of wood a winter, no electric bill, no gas or fuel oil bill. For the foreseeable future, the sun will remain a free fuel source (though the government will probably try to figure out a way to tax it......)

[Grady223]

Originally Posted by Dr. Green

As to the original question about supplementing electric heat (or better - replacing electric heat), we are building an off-grid solar electric home heated by solar hot water (evacuated tubes and underfloor radiant heating) with a masonry stove for back-up heat for the water (capturing heat from the stove and transferring it to the water tank). In addition, the house is high thermal mass, with a greenhouse on the south side. Thus our ONLY energy cost will be about 1 cord of wood a winter, no electric bill, no gas or fuel oil bill. For the foreseeable future, the sun will remain a free fuel source (though the government will probably try to figure out a way to tax it......)

Which island is this on?

[Grady223]

Originally Posted by HEP170DW

First off I'll fess up and let you know I'm in the HVAC business. We live and work local so I like to check in this forum periodically to see whats on folks minds.
You could consider and Air Exchange Heat Pump / AC for an extremely efficient heat source, especially in the spring / fall. You get AC as a bonus for those few sticky weeks / days in summer. We've installed several on the islands, matter of fact just put one in on Melody Island off Wolfboro Bay yesterday.
Do some research, just google "Air Exchange Heat Pump" you'll find they use low wattage to produce lots of heat. The newest models are even better than the info you'll find on the web. The technology for heating has leaped in the last couple years.
Electric is only used to circulate the refrigerant, controls and DC fan. The units have a reversing valve so in heating the liquid phase changes to gas outside and absorbs energy and transfers it inside as heat (kind've like a refrigerator).
I have a small unit and I use it way more for heating than cooling. It saved me over 200 gls of oil this past winter. As a matter of fact it's 57F out and my heat pump is keeping my house warm for pennies today.

I agree, a heat pump is probably the way to go on an island. We have Mitsubishi split system heat pump colling and heating a couple of room in our PA house, it is rated 26 SEER and 10.6 HSPF, ran all winter and summer, it affected our electric bill like leaving a light bulb on.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Lucy Goose

Hi folks,

We have electric heat in our home and want to be able to use it year round. We have been looking into some supplemental ideas but I just wondered what everyone had else had for ideas or has used and liked or not liked.

thanks,

Lucy Goose

First off, are you on an island or on the Main land?

Second, how much manual work do you want to have to do?

These are the quesiton's to ask yourself when thinking about alternative and second heat sources.....

If on an island, you have to get the fuel out there... Period.. bottom line, what is going to be the easiest and most efficient resource to get out there... (electric included here)

If you decided to go the wood or pellet route remember the physical aspects of it... They never go away....

I use a heat pump in my year around condo in Ma. It is a tremendously old unit.... That I hope to replace soon. But even so... it is reasonable to operate.... and I don't notice a big boom in my electric bill.... Maybe 5-10 dollars in the warmest and coldest months... other then that it is consistent... and not much more then that of my mother who is in a similar sized condo, with gas heat...... I think my mother pays about 45 or so dollars a month with an electric dryer.... I have no dryer, but have the heat pump and my bill is between 45 and 50 on average...... (keep in mind, I have electronics to beet the band..... as well)

[Lucy Goose]

Thank you for all the great info. I have a lot to look into. We are not on an island we are in Melvin Village and sit high up on a hill overlooking the lake. We thought about solar first and spoke with folks and got discouraged, then we thought about a small windmill to tie into the box and got discouraged again. The cost of these things would take years to recoop. So I will now look into the rest of your suggestions.

I do not want to deal with a wood or pellet stove. We are not here all the time and they are far too much work. Had one in our other home and removed it and put in a gas fireplace.

I am liking the idea of the Rinnai (sp) since we are doing the kitchen over and putting in a propane cooktop that may be our best bet. I will have to look into this heat pump thing as well. So much to do and so little time to do it.

Thanks again and I still welcome any other suggestions.

Lucy Goose

[BroadHopper]

My gf is building a new home. The Mitsibushi air source heat pump system seems to be the most economical way to go for new construction. Far less variables than wind or solar systems. Shoreline Protection Act discourage wind and solar installation. Geothermal is very expensive and payback in years is a ways off.

For backup, she decided on the Rinnai heaters. Conventional in all rooms except for infrared in the bathrooms. She decided to use propane for heat, tankless hot water heater, clothes dryer and for cooking.

[tis]

Our furnace is getting old and we are going to need to replace it sometime in the near future. I don't know much about the heat pumps. Can anyone tell me how they work around here. Are they the same idea as the air/heat pumps in Fl. How do they work up here in the cold? I have been looking at ideas other than oil.

[Lakesrider]

We have the Rinnai 29K BTU unit in our Condex in Nashua. Our home is small about 1200sq ft. 2 bedroom size. The Rennai heats the place through the winter. We do have electric baseboard as it was installed when built. But we never have used them since the Rennai was installed.

In our Moultonborough house, same size, we have a propane stove. 32k BTU. Heats the whole house. The difference between having the Rennai and the propane stove is if the power goes out. The Rennai will not work. The Propane stove will light off but no fan to circulate. But you will have heat. Just a thought about the Rennai, if using as a primary heat source you might want a generator handy.
Now we also have the Mitsbushi Mr. Slim Ac mentioned above. Right now if you upgrade to the heat pump/AC model you get tax credits back. That setup cost us about $3K.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by tis

Our furnace is getting old and we are going to need to replace it sometime in the near future. I don't know much about the heat pumps. Can anyone tell me how they work around here. Are they the same idea as the air/heat pumps in Fl. How do they work up here in the cold? I have been looking at ideas other than oil.

Heat pumps work fine until the temps get towards 10F. There is much less heat to extract from 10 degrees or less so the unit needs to work much longer and when temps are far below zero it may not ehat enough. I have 12 units in my mill building but have them in the basement so I am taking a lot of heat out of the ground and they work fine. They tend to overheat the space in the summer so I vent them to the outside.

[Grady223]

Originally Posted by tis

Our furnace is getting old and we are going to need to replace it sometime in the near future. I don't know much about the heat pumps. Can anyone tell me how they work around here. Are they the same idea as the air/heat pumps in Fl. How do they work up here in the cold? I have been looking at ideas other than oil.

They are one in the same - over the last few years they have almost doubled their efficiency, though. Best set up for colder climates is a hybrid system, where you have the heat pump which works very efficiently down to 25 or 30 degrees and either a gas or oil furnace to supplement it at lower temps. My kids go the Carrier hybrid and cut their total heating & AC costs by 35%.

[tis]

Thanks for those answers. So you still need a regular furnace though. The heat pumps would not be a substitute? Anyone sell them around here?

[meredith weekender]

When we renovated the house about 3 years ago we took out the forced hot air by oil furnace and replaced it with a high efficiency forced hotwater by LP boiler. Although the fuel savings is tremendous the down fall is that when you come up in the winter it takes several hours to bring the temperature up to 69 degrees. With the forced hot air, we were able to raise the temperature in about thirty minutes. We could install a remote thermostat, but we do not have a land line telephone so that option is out. Just my experience here. Good luck.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by meredith weekender

Although the fuel savings is tremendous the down fall is that when you come up in the winter it takes several hours to bring the temperature up to 69 degrees. With the forced hot air, we were able to raise the temperature in about thirty minutes.

Exactly. I leave my skihouse at about 48 degrees. 15- 20 minutes later it's up to temp with forced hot air. I also don't have to worry about any frozen heating pipes. I had my fathers house freeze up when power was lost for a few days and went unnoticed. At least with air you could heat the space right back up. I had broken fhw pipes that had to be repaired before we could heat the house up again.

[Grady223]

Originally Posted by tis

Thanks for those answers. So you still need a regular furnace though. The heat pumps would not be a substitute? Anyone sell them around here?

Is it a seasonal home, shut down in the winter? If so a heat pump alone would be enough, but if you need to get thru the NH winters (Nov thru March) you'll need the furnace to back it up.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Exactly. I leave my skihouse at about 48 degrees. 15- 20 minutes later it's up to temp with forced hot air. I also don't have to worry about any frozen heating pipes. I had my fathers house freeze up when power was lost for a few days and went unnoticed. At least with air you could heat the space right back up. I had broken fhw pipes that had to be repaired before we could heat the house up again.

Those who have forced hot water, there is an antifreeze designed for such systems. You can be able to shut down your boiler without fear of ice damage.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

Those who have forced hot water, there is an antifreeze designed for such systems. You can be able to shut down your boiler without fear of ice damage.

You have to change the fluid every so often (5-8years) and the anti-freeze eats away at your brass fittings. You just have to pay more attention to it, but it does work well.

One other issue that may come up is finding someone that will work on your system once treated. Any water that comes out of the loop needs to be dealt with the right way.

But to shut everything down, you still have to deal with any supply lines or domestic water lines freezing, no way to anti-freeze those without dealing with a mess at every start up.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Grady223

Is it a seasonal home, shut down in the winter? If so a heat pump alone would be enough, but if you need to get thru the NH winters (Nov thru March) you'll need the furnace to back it up.

Not entirely true.... Not all heat pumps are the same... my father inlaw pointed me at one time to the following:

Acadia Heat pumps:

http://www.gotohallowell.com/Acadia%...acadia-30.html

these heat pumps are designed to be used in colder climates....

[dpg]

The Home Of Dr. Green sounds great but I know a few people that have looked into/priced going almost all or at least 1/2 solar. For the price of everything they could of heated their homes with electricity for the next 50 years just to get their investment back. Can't speak of every situation but their prices were expensive.

[Dr. Green]

Originally Posted by dpg

The Home Of Dr. Green sounds great but I know a few people that have looked into/priced going almost all or at least 1/2 solar. For the price of everything they could of heated their homes with electricity for the next 50 years just to get their investment back. Can't speak of every situation but their prices were expensive.

Well, I could probably speak a million words to that.

#1) You are right - using solar to heat your home is a VERY expensive thing to do - it will cost an arm and a leg. 50 year payback is about right... for HEATING a home with SOLAR ELECTRICITY. Why, cause electricity is the least efficient (cost-wise) way to heat a home. Anyone who comes to my store (www.sustainabilitynh.com) looking to use solar electric to heat gets a lecture. ... But using SOLAR HOT WATER to heat your home - that's a different matter. That is the CHEAPEST way to heat your home. The only real drawback is that you will need a secondary heat source in our cold winter climate (too many cloudy days - if we had the same temperatures, but as much sun as Arizona, solar hot water could probably heat the house all winter). Come by the store for a look at how solar hot water works. In Israel, 92% of heating is done by solar hot water! (Yes, I know we don't have quite the climate for that - we probably only have the potential for about 75% of our annual heating to be done by solar hot water. Solar hout water pays for itself usually in roughly a decade or so.

#2) You use solar electricity to run the electric items in the house; you use solar hot water to heat the house (and the hot water you use domestically). Our back-up heating system is a masonry stove - the type that draws the heat into the house rather than losing it up the chimney. Plus, we have a loop system capturing the fireplace heat and using it to heat the 1000 gallon tank in the basement for radiant heat (though I confess, our bigger fear is of being too warm with the high thermal mass AND masonry stove heat).

# Solar electric is cheaper than buying from the power company - as long as you get near full day sun. If you get sunlight on your collectors more than 75% of the time (i.e - trees, other buildings or hills don't block it from dawn to dusk); you will save money by producing power for yourself over the cost of buying it from the power company. The break-even point (the time it takes for your system to be cheaper than just buying from the power company) is probably 17-18 years if you have all day sun, longer if you have significant shading. that's a long time. However, the NEXT 20 years, you will be paying $0 for your energy, while someone who stays stuck on the grid will be at lease as much at the cost of the first 20 years. So what is your time-line? (And you might not think just about your financial benefit, but the impact of many people going solar has on the need for new power plants - coal, oil or nuclear.....)

#4 Don't just take my word for it - every 1st Sunday in October there is a state-wide solar home tour where you can visit existing homes using solar power and hear from the owners how happy they are that they made the switch. Several of our installations will be on the tour this October, though I think my home might have to wait til next year to be finished enough to be included.

Solar electric for powering the home, and solar hot water for heating the home are the cheapest way to go over the long run.

[Airedale1]

Originally Posted by Formula260SS

We have a Rinnai propane vented heater and love it, takes the chill out in the spring and fall. In the winter with the wood stove going it circulates the heat evenly throughout the cottage as well. Our wood stove will only burn for about 4-5 hours but the with Rinnai going we wake up to about 65 degrees during the ice fishing derby

Another vote for the Rinnai. We built an addition a couple of years ago and chose the Rinnai for heat. It is a very good unit, quiet, economical and ours has a tray in the bottom that you fill with water and it humidifies the air.