Island Camp / Snowmobile Camp

[ishoot308]

I plan on using our island camp this winter as a snowmobiling camp and would appreciate any input.

During our spring time renovations we completely insulated the entire camp and had all the waterlines under the house heat taped and encased in insulation then screw applied plywood sheathing to keep all insulation in good shape as well as to keep the island critters out. We applied strapping over all the seams then caulked around all the strapping for an air tight seal. Island Support will be coming by in the next week or so to take care of the water line from the lake to the house so it can be used during the winter. (not sure how that's done, but apparently it's not an issue)

We heat with electricity and also have a propane stove in the living room. My plan is to keep the heat (electric) set at 40 degrees through the winter. I also plan on putting a freeze monitor connected to my camp phone line so in case of a power outage or temperature drop I will be notified. In this instance, a quick trip to the island (if ice is safe) or a call to Island Support so he can go by and start up either my generator or living room propane stove until the issue is resolved or if necessary shut everything down and winterize the camp until electricity is restored.

I had George Randall deliver extra bottles of propane for the winter months as our on demand water heater also utilizes propane and didn't want to run out half way through the winter.

Does it sound like I have everything covered??? Am I nuts to do this?? Do any of you other island dwellers do this also??

I just want to utilze the camp as much as possible and being an avid snowmobiler / ice fisherman it would seem such a waste not to use the camp for this purpose. It would sure beat the three hour + drive to Pittsburgh and the expenses that go along with that that I did on many weekends during the previous winters.

Thought or recommendations would be appreciated!

Thanks!!

Dan

[Pineedles]

Just curious Dan, is the island electrifyied? Is that how you are able to keep the electric on all winter?

[jmen24]

I cannot help you with the "are you crazy for doing this", but a couple of things to keep in mind, i do not know if these apply but something to verify for you. Not all propane appliances will relite the pilot by themselves, so if you have a power flicker and the thermocoupler loses power it will allow the pilot to go out and then will need to be manually restarted.

Do you have a way to access the sealed space for the water lines that you closed in? The reason I ask is you will want to be able to check that your heat tape is not affecting the insulation by being in direct contact with it. Not all heat tapes are rated for IC installation. Again you may have verified this already.

I would also recommend that you set your heat slightly higher than 40 degrees, say 45, that way you will have enough reserve time to get out and get the generator running. The overall temp within the home will not drop fast as the insulation will hold that heat and the extra degrees really make a difference, especially if you are exposed to wind. That brings up another item that the overall exterior and interior temperature is not your biggest concern, it is a pin sized air hole to the exterior inline or near a water pipe that will cause it to freeze. We have repaired more than a few cases that the heat or hot water line froze even though the water in the line was hot, just not circulating. It is like a jet of air just blasting that one spot.

Hopefully all these things work out and you get to enjoy the house this winter and safe riding.

[ishoot308]

Pineedles;

Yes there is electricity on Welch island.

[tis]

I am sure you thought of it, but I would certainly turn off the water to the whole house when you leave so that in the event of a pipe break, the water would not keep running.

[ishoot308]

Jmen;

Thanks for the reply...

My expansion tank, water filters, etc, etc. are in a heavily insulated box with door under the house for access.

The heat tape for the water lines were done professionally by one of Island Supports contractors who is well versed in winter camp requirements and has worked on many island homes so I am assuming all would be O.K. in that respect.

My propane stove is not my primary heat, but will continue to function with no electricity. However you raise a good point as I have no idea if the on demand hot water system would need to be restarted and I have no idea how to do this but I will find out this weekend!! Thanks!

Thanks for the recommendation on the 45 degree heat set limit. I think I will follow your advice!

Thanks!!

Dan

[ishoot308]

Tis;

Thanks, and yes that was my plan just in case of a pipe breaking.

Dan

[ossipeeboater]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Jmen;

Thanks for the reply...

My expansion tank, water filters, etc, etc. are in a heavily insulated box with door under the house for access.

The heat tape for the water lines were done professionally by one of Island Supports contractors who is well versed in winter camp requirements and has worked on many island homes so I am assuming all would be O.K. in that respect.

My propane stove is not my primary heat, but will continue to function with no electricity. However you raise a good point as I have no idea if the on demand hot water system would need to be restarted and I have no idea how to do this but I will find out this weekend!! Thanks!

Thanks for the recommendation on the 45 degree heat set limit. I think I will follow your advice!

Thanks!!

Dan

if you have easy acess to the box where your pump/tank is I'd open the drain in the pressure tank and take the system down especially for the 4-6 weeks from late November till the ice is safe theres no reason to keep water in the lines. Then you can reprime the system when your going to be up using it.

I had an issue with my heat going out this past winter, ended up blowing out several lines because my faucets were not open to give the water places to expand so after you shut off the pump if your not going to gravity drain all the pipes I'd open all the faucets in the house and put the red antifreeze in the traps and toilet so that if you do have a freeze it doesn't burst anything.

[ishoot308]

Ossipee;

Thanks! Steve from Island Support also mentioned doing this to be safe. I am going to meet with him this weekend to review and come up with the proper method. But this sounds like the best and safest way. Do I have to prime a submersible pump or simply turn it on??

Thanks again!

Dan

[welchislandman]

Hi Dan,

We are also on welch and have webcams/computers installed for monitoring. I see power fluctuations at times that can last many hours, more off season. I would recommend a UPS backup for any critical systems you need to count on to be safe.

As for the snowmobile camp. We always try to go out to the camp in winter but find it to be year to year with the amount of snow and ice safety. Pittsburg seems to always have snow.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[Slickcraft]

Dan,

I assume that your septic has a pump chamber and a line up to a leech field out back. In our case the line out from the chamber is near the surface and would freeze if not drained or protected with RV anti-freeze.

How do you like the Eastern? I would like to walk over and take a look sometime.

Alan

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by Slickcraft

Dan,

I assume that your septic has a pump chamber and a line up to a leech field out back. In our case the line out from the chamber is near the surface and would freeze if not drained or protected with RV anti-freeze.

How do you like the Eastern? I would like to walk over and take a look sometime.

Alan

Hi Alan;

Yes I too have a pump up system... I will have to talk to Steve from ISS about this and see if this is a problem.

I like the Eastern, it does not handle the rough water as well as the V-Toon however, and the flat bottom takes a little getting used to when docking, but it is a very well made boat.

We will be there this weekend, come on by and take her out for a drive if you like.

Dan

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by ossipeeboater

I had an issue with my heat going out this past winter, ended up blowing out several lines because my faucets were not open to give the water places to expand so after you shut off the pump if your not going to gravity drain all the pipes I'd open all the faucets in the house and put the red antifreeze in the traps and toilet so that if you do have a freeze it doesn't burst anything.

Just having your faucets open will not prevent your pipes from bursting. Opening the faucet will allow for the water drain all the way back to the drain opening. Water when frozen expands in all directions not just along its length (in a pipe), it will also expand in its circumfrence, this is what will cause your pipes to burst. To illustrate this, imagine not putting anti-freeze in your trap, one side of the trap is always exposed to unrestricted air, the other to a vented plumbing network (still unrestricted air) that trap will still burst in this event as the surface of the trap water freezes it will expand in its circumfrence and burst the trap.

The second cause for a burst pipe is pressure build-up from a ice plug. You turn the water system on, the system pressurizes and blows out a fitting or a hydronic baseboard pipe (1/2 the thickness of supply pipe). This plug is caused by a holding spot for water or a point in which cold blasts of air have direct access to the water pipe hot or cold (my example in above post). You can leave your faucet open if you want to but the physics of water expansion say that you are not gaining the benefit you desire.

The reason that your pipes burst is because you have a holding spot for water that cannot exit the system, this probably occured in either a long run of pipe attached to floor framing or at a joint connection. This is almost impossible to prevent with copper or PVC piping. PEX is incredibly resistent to bursting, the connections and manifold are not.

[Old Hubbard Rd]

Make sure you have a smoke and carbon dioxide detector!!

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by Old Hubbard Rd

Make sure you have a smoke and carbon dioxide detector!!

a carbon monoxide detector.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by upthesaukee

a carbon monoxide detector.

Got both!

Thanks!

Dan

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Might be worth pouring a bit of non toxic RV anti freeze into the sink trap and toilet when you leave, just in case.

If your water line runs to the lake, do you heat the line all the way? Does the ice move and risk taking the line with it?

One of the things we found heating a cold camp in the spring and fall was that it takes a lot of BTU to raise the temperature of the mass of the structure. It can take a while if you don't have a lot of excess heating capacity.

Enjoy the extended season.

[Lake Fan]

We use our island camp for several ice fishing/snowmobiling weekends and long weekends over the winter months. We take the "low-tech" approach. We dip water from the lake, keep a big pot of hot water on the stove for washing up, and we do our "business" out in the woods, or flush with a bucket of water in the toilet. A bit of RV antifreeze down the traps when we leave solves the freezing problem. Keep the wood fire going, lots of blankets on hand, and a big bottle of scotch handy for medicinal reasons...it doesn't get much better than winter out on the island.

[ApS]

Depending on how much of your camp's exposure is to the north (and construction type and proven quality), 40° may not be enough heat.

I don't have the additional concerns about island living AND winter, but was going to write pretty much what Lake Fan wrote. (Except that one's judgement—upon alcohol consumption—adds to the risks of winter's extremes, isolation, and snowmobiling).

A widespread grid blackout, as in 2003, could ruin a lot of planning. (Or even a smaller local blackout—or a utility pole that "falls over" ).

[Blue Thunder]

Originally Posted by Lake Fan

We use our island camp for several ice fishing/snowmobiling weekends and long weekends over the winter months. We take the "low-tech" approach. We dip water from the lake, keep a big pot of hot water on the stove for washing up, and we do our "business" out in the woods, or flush with a bucket of water in the toilet. A bit of RV antifreeze down the traps when we leave solves the freezing problem. Keep the wood fire going, lots of blankets on hand, and a big bottle of scotch handy for medicinal reasons...it doesn't get much better than winter out on the island.

The above is basically what we do as well. We melt the snow on the stove for use in the "facilities" (you know, if it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's brown flush it down.) We leave multiple gallons of spring water in a tote in the tub. It really doesn't take long to thaw. Use one toilet and one sink, re-winterize upon leaving and no worries. No matter how well insulated you think things are, too many things can go wrong. You need to have the mindset that the power will go out for an extended period (in my case that means "see you after iceout" from the power company) or that there is never safe enough ice to get to your destination. JMO

BT

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by Lake Fan

We use our island camp for several ice fishing/snowmobiling weekends and long weekends over the winter months. We take the "low-tech" approach. We dip water from the lake, keep a big pot of hot water on the stove for washing up, and we do our "business" out in the woods, or flush with a bucket of water in the toilet. A bit of RV antifreeze down the traps when we leave solves the freezing problem. Keep the wood fire going, lots of blankets on hand, and a big bottle of scotch handy for medicinal reasons...it doesn't get much better than winter out on the island.

In addition to lots of blankets on hand, we have found that an electric mattress pad heater can make a cold bed a bit more civilized for our early spring or late fall nights at camp.
http://www.amazon.com/Westpoint-Stev.../dp/B0002CRJQ4

[LakeSnake]

Also make sure you check the alarm temperature of the freeze alarm. Some are fixed at a certain temperature, some you can adjust the alarm temperature. I would recommend you set the heat at about 10 degrees higher than the alarm temp. of the freeze alarm. For example the freeze alarm activates the alarm at 40 degrees – I recommend you set the heat in the house at 50 degrees. This will allow for some variation in temperature due to placement of the freeze alarm vs the house thermostat, harsh temperature drops during a storm or on real cold nights as well as short power outage. It may take some trial and error to get it right depending on your particular situation – so you may get a few “false” alarms if the temperature setting differential is to close.

All taken from practical personal experience.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Lake Snake brings up a good point. Our old fridge would not work in the cold weather. A bit of internet research uncovered the advice to keep a light bulb burning near the compressor. (That is if you keep it going during the away periods)

Something we do all the time with regards to the fact that we may have had an extended power failure while we were gone is to place an ice cube on the freezer shelf rack. When we return, if the cube is intact, we know the food in the freezer is still good. Sometimes low tech is good enough.

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

Something we do all the time with regards to the fact that we may have had an extended power failure while we were gone is to place an ice cube on the freezer shelf rack. When we return, if the cube is intact, we know the food in the freezer is still good. Sometimes low tech is good enough.

Our refrigerator eats ice over a period of time. In a months time, ice cube trays that were full will shrink down to less than half in size. One cube in mine may just disappear.

I may have to go back to Mr. Wizard experiments and try it out in my unit. Good idea.

You could also freeze water in a bottle half full, and once frozen, put an item with weight to it, like a marble or a nut for a bolt in the bottle on top of the ice, and if the nut is still on the top of the ice, all may be well with the food.

[wifi]

I suspect the difference in these freezers is due to the frost free cycle. The warming/cooling cycles also adds the freezer 'taste' as it extracts water from the items contained.

[Kamper]

Originally Posted by Slickcraft

... an electric mattress pad heater can make a cold bed a bit more civilized ...

I've also found heating pads to be more effective than an electric blanket.

Another technique you can do is to insulate the windows. Those cheap plastic film kits have wide following. You do end up with tack holes in the window frames and recycling them requires some careful handling. I prefer foam insulating panels (not the naked styrofoam though, too messy). You can get them in a variety of thicknesses.

Some already have a coating on them and others you could add a layer of contact paper to improve the apearance if you are so inclined. They are easily concealed behind curtains so the "boss's" sensibilities won't be upset.

You can cut it to fit any size doorway or window. You can do a partial window for some light or take a piece out of the center. I have small bits of plexi in the celler window pieces. Last year I added a piece of 2 inch between the celler door and the bulkhead, I could really feel the difference there.

I don't have a camp so I am talking about my experience in my year around house in Merrimack. This will be my 3rd year and I believe the job paid for itself the first year. I leave most of the panels in during the summer too, to save on cooling expenses.

Good luck!

[ishoot308]

I want to thank everyone for all your responses.

After meeting with Steve from Island Support and reviewing all your concerns and recommendations I have decided to use the camp but will not be turning on or using any water.

I will simply turn the heat on when I get here and shut it off when I leave. The camp will remain winterized from November till spring. This seems to be the best and safest method to ensure no problems occur.

The biggest factor that made up my mind is electricity...There is simply no way to safeguard for a long term power outage on the island. A backup generator will only run for so many days until fuel is exhausted.

Thanks again!

Dan

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Originally Posted by jmen24

... Not all propane appliances will relite the pilot by themselves, so if you have a power flicker and the thermocoupler loses power it will allow the pilot to go out and then will need to be manually restarted. .....

A lot of newer appliances don't use a pilot light, they use a spark igniter like the one in the water heater in my camper.

[Orion]

Warm air can hold a lot more moisture, so as you heat up your camp and cook in it, and run water, and breathe, it all increases the humidity level in the camp. You'll find that you may get condensation on outer walls and other cool surfaces, but more important, as you leave and let the camp cool down, you get moisture condensing on all sorts of surfaces. This tends to increase mustiness in the camps over time. If possible, you should ventilate the camp well as you leave to try to compensate somewhat though it is tough to exchange the warm moist air inside for cool dry air outside.

Also keep in mind that areas of the camp that do not get up to the warmer temps (i.e. closets and cabinets against outside walls) will most likely be the first to get damp from the moist air.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Do you think keeping a bathroom style fan running while away would keep the camp dry?