5 Million Dollar Moultonboro Rec Center Proposal

DREAMS · 01-01-2008, 02:31 PM

Has any local folks following the recent discussions and proposal of another $5 Million dollar project for Moultonboro Taxpayers to swallow? Even worse that we already spent close to $50,000 to create the proposed project! With the construction of the multimillion dollar safety building/fire station/police department and minimal use for town functions, it seems like the selectman/selectwomen are pushing for more major development as the previous financing bonds come to completion. With the state and local economies seriously hurting with employment and housing, it certainly doesn't see appropriate to be wasting hard earned tax dollar contributions on another huge project at this time. It appears making the investment to purchase the property for future development and growth wasn't good enough for the town leaders. They certainly are anxious to dig into our wallets first before we manage to determine what exists for our personal finances and current or future obligations. Moultonboro is quickly becoming an unaffordable town for the younger and middle age generation. Apparently our town leaders don't realize how many full time residents currently are required to commuter at least 1 hour or longer to work due to
such poor local wage scales in comparison with housing costs. It seems like the "old money" and older folks who have owned their homes and have much smaller housing budgets are making the decisions for all residents regardless of affordability for all. They keep pushing how Moultonboro is growing to senior residents. The majority of younger or middle age seniors don't have spare change to be wasting with town projects beyond their minimum living accomodations, transportation, food costs, medical insurance, presicriptions, etc. I hope more residents speak up against the development of this project during such an unstable and bad economy locally and globally.

LIforrelaxin · 01-01-2008, 05:36 PM

Before anyone can judge whether or not this project is a good thing, one has to understand the bottom line, which I as of yet do not. Is there a Tax increase planned to fund this project? or is it to be bonded and paid on over time with money, that was going to a bond that has recently been paid. One has to have all the facts before rendering judgement. Personally I think a rec center is a good idea.... depending on what exactly is planned, which also I have not seen details on. If Moultonborough wants a chance to bring some industry to the area, to help it residents. They have to make the area attractive, so that a company can feel it will be worth while. That doesn't just mean perks for the company, that means making the community look stable, you do that by building a community which means things like rec-centers..... Moultonborough in my estimation is doing a good job. Sure they have and will have spending blunders all towns do..... The rework of the boat ramp by LI bridge for instance was an oops..... It is hard when so many people seem to be struggling to see the government throw money around, but having live in places where they waited to long to do capital improvements it is better to keep improvements coming at a steady pace, as opposed to waiting until it is too late and being forced to spend all at once.......

ITD · 01-01-2008, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Is there a Tax increase planned to fund this project? or is it to be bonded and paid on over time with money, that was going to a bond that has recently been paid. One has to have all the facts before rendering judgement.

What's the difference?????? Either way its a tax increase and more spending!!!!!!! You can put a dress and lipstick on a pig, but in the end it's still a pig.

How about reducing the tax rate after a bond is paid, rather than scrambling for another way to spend?

fatlazyless · 01-01-2008, 06:51 PM

Ask anyone in Moultonboro, and they will tell you that Meredith was always just an old asbestos shingle & Annalee doll type of a town that just happened to be on the waterfront. Looking down those long thin Moultonboro, pinched, Yankee noses, they were aghast when Meredith put up a three million dollar community center. I can hear their selectboard now,,,if Meredith can afford a 3mil center then, M-boro can certainly afford a 5mil center, and that's that!.

Maybe they can hire Judd Gregg to play the Powerball? I hear he is tight with Selectwoman Betsey Patten.

................

Don't know if M-Boro is an SB-2 town or not......if no, maybe the Meredith SB-2 thread is worth a read.

Probably, by the time an SB-2 petition gets passed, it's after the horse has run away, and the police-fire-school-library-community center has already been built. All these facilities are excellent community services but it's paying for everything with their property tax that is killing some people.

I do not know too much about the Meredith Community Center and how many adults-children use it and for what so I will not make any dopey comments about the baby sitting classes, an adult, in-door, badmitton league, the indoor rock climbing wall, or the community center on-site, person-in-charge who gets the super town health care package that I pay for with my $700./month property taxes, which in turn, means my health insurance is zero. Fortunately, I am healthy as a horse, and just as dumb!
................

Here's a newly proposed house bill to think about from yesterday's Union Leader.

Rep James Kennedy D-Exeter has a bill that would do the following.

8% cap on property tax

repeal interest & dividend tax

3.5% income tax
exempt $22,000 for single taxpayer
exempt additional $22,000 for single parent or married couple
............................

Rep Kennedy says it would capture a billion dollars a year loss from residents of Maine, Massachusetts & Vermont who work in New Hampshire but pay taxes in their native state.
.............................

How would this bill effect you?

How does your Moultonboro State Representative, NH State Board of Assessors Chair-person, & Moultonboro Select-person Betsey Patten think about it?

I myself think it's a terrific plan and especially like the 8% tax cap, the two $22,000 exemptions, and the billion dollar tax capture. What it does is it places a tax on those with a better abiliy to pay a tax, as opposed to the property tax.

Probably for many people across New Hampshire, this tax plan would be a real advantage. Please ask yourself, would it be one for you?

LIforrelaxin · 01-01-2008, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ITD

What's the difference?????? Either way its a tax increase and more spending!!!!!!! You can put a dress and lipstick on a pig, but in the end it's still a pig.

How about reducing the tax rate after a bond is paid, rather than scrambling for another way to spend?

I understand what you are saying ITD, and I don't disagree with you. But You will never see a Property Tax Rate cut as long as NH keeps it current Tax scheme. Which then leaves you with two options when money is freed up 1) respend the money on something that the town will benefit from, or 2) save it for future use. Now as for option 2 I don't know any politician that knows how to save tax payers money. I would rather see option 1 there fore inacted so that at least I know the money is not going to get spent frivously on BS schemes. From my previous post the towns/cities I lived in that ran into problems, spent the money the should have been saving on BS schemes therefore when Police cruisers, Fire Trucks, and a new High School where need they didn't have the finances. But as I mentioned in my first post I admitedly need more information on what is going on here..... something I do actually plan to follow up on.....

Lakegeezer · 01-02-2008, 07:10 AM

Good topic! I've heard about the center, but not much about the pros and cons of building it. My gut reaction so far is; built it. It won't likely be a big increase in taxes long term, and it provides something for my tax dollars that will probably be good for the town. There is little "community" in Moultonboro. Meredith is the center of gravity on the northern part of the lake, and its in a different county than M'boro. Having a place where adults can get to know each other will help the community. Putting an investment in growing the community spirit sounds like money well spent.

KonaChick · 01-02-2008, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

Good topic! I've heard about the center, but not much about the pros and cons of building it. My gut reaction so far is; built it. It won't likely be a big increase in taxes long term, and it provides something for my tax dollars that will probably be good for the town. There is little "community" in Moultonboro. Meredith is the center of gravity on the northern part of the lake, and its in a different county than M'boro. Having a place where adults can get to know each other will help the community. Putting an investment in growing the community spirit sounds like money well spent.

Just because you build it does not mean they will come!

Weirs guy · 01-02-2008, 12:30 PM

Is there a more cost effective way to get this done? What does the $5M get you? Can existing facilities be renovated for less money? I have a problem with just building something "new" cause something not new isn't good enough anymore. Is that the case here?

LIforrelaxin · 01-02-2008, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

Is there a more cost effective way to get this done? What does the $5M get you? Can existing facilities be renovated for less money? I have a problem with just building something "new" cause something not new isn't good enough anymore. Is that the case here?

Depending on what you are starting with and where you want to end up, retrofiting an exsisting building can actually get to be more expensive then starting all over. That said I hate seeing vacant buildings, so I hope they have something to take over what is serving as the current rec center.... Hold on is there a current rec center?

But you are right, to often things are discard because they are not "new enough" and that is wrong too..... if we all had the best of everything we would never be able to retire.......

John A. Birdsall · 01-02-2008, 04:43 PM

NH, Conn.,Federal Gov't and perhaps all governments need to cut spending, and one is the wages and increases they have given themselves. A freshman in the legislature should not get high level pay, and they should not be allowed to serve more than two terms. Their retirement program should be the same as anyone else drawing social security Serve a term as a senator and get the same pay for the rest of your life. Who in their right mind would ever put that system in place.

Skip · 01-02-2008, 04:59 PM

Why I don't live in Moultonborough or have a stake in this proposal, it only took me about 20 seconds to find a story clarifying this proposal.

Apparently this is not a done deal or an idea foisted upon the town by the "town fathers". Rather it was an idea expressed by a citizen's committee, a committe who's chair resigned after receiving heavy criticism of the proposal, in particular its estimated price tag.

While a project of this magnitude for a community with a tax base the size of the town in question is cause for concern & serious review, this proposal is nothing more than that...and idea expressed by a sub committee of citizens formed to review and

suggest ideas concerning Moultonborough's recreational opportunities.

A story in the Citizen explaining more can be read HERE.

KonaChick · 01-02-2008, 05:06 PM

The committee was alloted $41,000 for a two year process of analysis. Give me a "tax break"!!!

Skip · 01-02-2008, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KonaChick

The committee was alloted $41,000 for a two year process of analysis. Give me a "tax break"!!!

OK, this one was a little tougher...it took me about five minutes. But once again the approximate $50,000 allocated for this study was approved by the residents of Moultonborough that attended the March 2006 Town Meeting and approved the requisite warrant article authorizing the spending.

Kind of reminds me of an old saying that goes something like this...."we have met the enemy, and they is us!

KonaChick · 01-02-2008, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skip

OK, this one was a little tougher...it took me about five minutes. But once again the approximate $50,000 allocated for this study was approved by the residents of Moultonborough that attended the March 2006 Town Meeting and approved the requisite warrant article authorizing the spending.

Kind of reminds me of an old saying that goes something like this...."we have met the enemy, and they is us!

Thanks for getting it Skip! Yes, the full time residents did vote to approve the warrant article authorizing the $50,000 and I've posted several times about how easily warrant articles and other spending sprees get passed by these full time residents so I don't want to be redundant...or have I been already?? Skip I've said it before and I'll say it again, I enjoy your posts on this forum!!

Skip · 01-02-2008, 07:07 PM

I apologize if maybe I came off harsh or overbearing. I agree with you, many times the minority of residents that do show up for these meetings do spend, and spend significantly.

Unfortunately the majority of eligible voters seem to always stay at home and let the minority decide their fate & future!

My only point was to dispel the inferences of some others who believe that a select few (the so called "town fathers") are making arbitrary decisions for the community, when it is in fact the community itself whether by omission or participation that is deciding its own fate.

And thank you for the compliment....it is much appreciated!

fatlazyless · 01-02-2008, 08:42 PM

Even if an SB-2 petiton is successfully passed by a majority, it's still probably too late for this issue. The horse has already done run off, and it's just too late for fix'n the barn door.

A few people in each town who hold positions as selectmen, state reps, town managers: they really know the ins and outs of getting non-candidate issues passed, plus they are smarter than you & me, and have experience with the local town political aparatus.

In other words: they know very well what they are doing and how to get a yes vote on their issue.

Maybe, the answer is to move to Livermore NH, a relatively nearby town with a huge area and a population of zero or maybe just one person. i could be the mayor.......Mr Mayor fatlazyless....sounds nice!

Gee whiz....maybe zero prop taxes?

It says the last resident left town in 1949, so probably there's no interest for a fancy community center with an adult dodge ball league!

(Wikipedia has it.)

Skip · 01-02-2008, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Even if an SB-2 petiton is successfully passed by a majority, it's still probably too late for this issue. The horse has already done run off, and it's just too late for fix'n the barn door...A few people in each town who hold positions as selectmen, state reps, town managers: they really know the ins and outs... In other words: they know very well what they are doing and how to get a yes vote on their issue...

Here we go again, creating controversy and conspiracy where neither exists.

The fine folks of Moultonborough that chose to show up at the March 2006 town meeting authorized warrant article 25 that allowed a committee of fellow citizens to expend up to $50,000 examining the entire recreational structure of the community, and make a series of recommendations to the community at a later date.

If you take but a few moments to explore the Town of Moultonborough website you will find that the committee met numerous times over the last two years publicly, and allowed and considered ample public input during their research process. The recreational facility discussed here was but one of a number of recommendations, a recommendation that has met considerable public opposition, enough opposition that the chairman of the committee making the recommendation forfeited his chairmanship.

There is no proposal for construction before the community. There is no warrant article authorizing the facility's construction on the agenda. There is simply a number of involved and concerned citizens in the community of Moultonborough having a lively and spirited public debate over an issue that apparently is of some importance to a number of residents.

And how do we know this? Because the debate and discussions are taking place in a public forum, appropriately covered by the local news media, that allows Moultonborough residents the ability to directly participate in the debate while allowing non-residents like us to speculate about the activity.

Sounds to me like an appropriate way for the government and the community to interact!

longislander · 01-02-2008, 09:49 PM

Kudos, Skip!!!

fpartri497 · 01-02-2008, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Even if an SB-2 petiton is successfully passed by a majority, it's still probably too late for this issue. The horse has already done run off, and it's just too late for fix'n the barn door.

A few people in each town who hold positions as selectmen, state reps, town managers: they really know the ins and outs of getting non-candidate issues passed, plus they are smarter than you & me, and have experience with the local town political aparatus.

In other words: they know very well what they are doing and how to get a yes vote on their issue.

Maybe, the answer is to move to Livermore NH, a relatively nearby town with a huge area and a population of zero or maybe just one person. i could be the mayor.......Mr Mayor fatlazyless....sounds nice!

Gee whiz....maybe zero prop taxes?

It says the last resident left town in 1949, so probably there's no interest for a fancy community center with an adult dodge ball league!

(Wikipedia has it.)

you got my vote

fatlazyless · 01-03-2008, 08:09 AM

Everything that Skip says is true and correct, with my emphasis on Skip's opening sentence; "The fine folks of Moultonboro that chose to show up at the March 2006 town meeting authorized.... ", and that is what SB-2 is specifically all about. SB-2 has many more residents engaged in voting for town items like a community center, than does the town meeting form of voting.

By reading thru the nearby Meredith SB-2 Petition thread, you can learn and compare the differences and advantages of SB-2 verses the 'town meeting' form of voting, and there are some big differences. Town meeting vote is a decision by the few, and SB-2 is a decision by the many, who are voters.

Skip can say that showing up at town meeting is their personal choice. And, I say it is also the voters personal choice to go with SB-2 or not. This choice is up to the majority in every NH town, and about 65 NH towns have switched to SB-2 with just three then later deciding to go back to the town meeting. SB-2 has been a local option since this state-wide law was passed in 1995.

And hey Skip, which very articulate poster on this forum has mentioned that he himself is also the town meeting moderator for his New Hampshire hometown? ....pssst, was his name 'Skip'?

ITD · 01-03-2008, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Town meeting vote is a decision by the few, and SB-2 is a decision by the many, who are voters.

Reminds me of the line from a Rush song, " If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice".

Moultonboro's "choice" under SB2 in the case of a $5 million dollar Rec. center would be gold or platinum bathroom fixtures.......

Skip · 01-03-2008, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

...And hey Skip, which very articulate poster on this forum has mentioned that he himself is also the town meeting moderator for his New Hampshire hometown? ....pssst, was his name 'Skip'?...

Oops, wrong once again FLL. I am the elected ward moderator for the city that I live in. A completely different position and set of responsibilities than the one you incorrectly attempted to connect me to....

Lucky2Bhere · 01-03-2008, 01:35 PM

From what I understand the Moultonborough tax rate will go up to pay for the community center. If most of the towns money comes from waterfront homes most of the bill will be paid by the seasonal residents who will use the center least or not at all. Is this fair?

TomC · 01-03-2008, 04:53 PM

Not sure fairness is part of the decision criteria! Why wouldn't a fulltime resident vote to pass something that will be useful to them, yet cost them little? Best tax is always the one the other guy pays, right?

fatlazyless · 01-03-2008, 06:05 PM

Ok ok ok Skip, it's not like I take written notes on this forum, I read the posts for education & entertainment & expression purposes or 'triple E' & after that I forget about them for a while. For me, the key word was moderator.

Anyway, as someone who knows quite a bit about New Hampshire laws, and political & election procedures, you add a lot to this forum.

Here's an SB-2 question for you. It is my understanding that the SB-2 law, created in 1995, can be used in NH towns but not in NH cities. What do you think the SB-2 creators were thinking when they wrote this law and why did they allow its' use in towns, but not in cities?

ITD · 01-03-2008, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

. What do you think the SB-2 creators were thinking when they wrote this law and why did they allow its' use in towns, but not in cities?

I think the SB-2 creators knew full well that power had already been concentrated into the hands of few in cities and that city residents would jump at the chance to have the amount of say in the city's affairs as a town meeting member has. Distributing power from a mayor/council type government to a town meeting type government, would upset the well established patronage/hack system already in place.

On the other hand in towns, where any registered voter can speak up, and indeed truly affect change by squashing runaway spending, the creators of SB2 know that their roadblock is a first step on to truly inefficient city and state style government that is adept at picking your pocket.

Skip · 01-03-2008, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ITD

I think the SB-2 creators knew full well that power had already been concentrated into the hands of few in cities and that city residents would jump at the chance to have the amount of say in the city's affairs as a town meeting member has. Distributing power from a mayor/council type government to a town meeting type government, would upset the well established patronage/hack system already in place...

I respectfully disagree. And to also answer FLL's question, the handful of incorporated cities in New Hampshire operate under many different rules than
the majority of communities in NH, which are towns that operate under the town meeting or SB-2 form of government.

Quite frankly, if I ever move further north to a town in my homestate here, I would probably prefer an SB-2 community for a number of reasons...some already articulated by FLL, ITD and others.

However, in a City by incorporating and being granted a charter by the State a whole new environment exists, mainly due to the substantial size difference and complexity of the cities versus the towns in NH.

But even in a city a group of citizens always retain the right to petition for a charter change and revoke city status and return to a town form of government. Case in point? There are a group of citizens in the City of Somersworth currently exploring this option.

Buy even in a City a single citizen, or a handful of citizens can effect change. In my City of Dover a single citizen was able to open the books and reveal massive retirement fraud. Another handful of citizens instituted a petition drive and last fall at the City election were able to get the city charter amended and we now have a much needed tax cap in the City of Dover.

Yes, there is ample corruption, deception & ineptitude found throughout government. Just as there is in many of the private industries that dot our landscape. On the other side of the coin there are many folks in government, and the programs and departments they represent, that truly make NH the attractive state to live, love & play in that it is!

My point is that an informed citizenry is the best defense against perceived government run amuck. Many times a little research will reveal that no problem truly exists, or may reveal a scathig indictment of a system, as the retirement system fiasco was revealed in Dover.

The problem is simple. Too many folks, whether they live in a town or a city, take their voting privilege to lightly and fail to excercise their right to participate and make positive or effective change. When that occurs, government operates in a vacuum. And that vacuum has a tendency to "suck" our money!

I said it before and at the risk of being redundant I'll say it again....when it comes to the political shortcomings of our communities, our State or our Country we have met the enemy, and thet is us!

fatlazyless · 01-03-2008, 07:38 PM

Thanks for the 'no charge' opinion, Skip. I was thinkin' that If it was a 'fee for service' opinion, I'd be turnin' it in to the Town of Meredith at the same time that I turn in the two SB-2 petitions with the required minimum of 25 votes each. Town Hall.....that's where all the money is....and in Meredith, the town hall building was originally built to be a 1920's savings bank w/ teller's windows, so now it's the home of the real big money.

ITD · 01-03-2008, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skip

Yes, there is ample corruption, deception & ineptitude found throughout government. Just as there is in many of the private industries that dot our landscape. On the other side of the coin there are many folks in government, and the programs and departments they represent, that truly make NH the attractive state to live, love & play in that it is!

Skip, as always, you make fine points. I'd like to take a couple of your quotes out of order, although hopefully not out of context. In my last post, I am guilty of painting with a broad brush, insinuating that all city employees and politicians are corrupt. I do not believe this, nor did I mean to imply it. To you honest city employees and politicians, please accept my most humble apologies, I really do appreciate the sometimes thankless jobs you perform.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skip

But even in a city a group of citizens always retain the right to petition for a charter change and revoke city status and return to a town form of government. Case in point? There are a group of citizens in the City of Somersworth currently exploring this option.

My point is that an informed citizenry is the best defense against perceived government run amuck. Many times a little research will reveal that no problem truly exists, or may reveal a scathig indictment of a system, as the retirement system fiasco was revealed in Dover.

The problem is simple. Too many folks, whether they live in a town or a city, take their voting privilege to lightly and fail to excercise their right to participate and make positive or effective change. When that occurs, government operates in a vacuum. And that vacuum has a tendency to "suck" our money!

I said it before and at the risk of being redundant I'll say it again....when it comes to the political shortcomings of our communities, our State or our Country we have met the enemy, and thet is us!

I agree 100 percent.

Here is my problem. In some of the posts in this thread and elsewhere there seems to be an underlying current of feelings that SB2 is in some way a method to thwart groups of people who have taken the time (which is not much by the way) to understand and work within the framework of town meeting government to institute the change that they want. If they have figured out how to get their way at town meeting, what's to stop them from figuring out how to get their way with SB2? Nothing. In fact it's much easier to stop, change, amend warrant articles than it is ballot questions. Hence, it's much easier to stop these groups at town meeting than it would be at the ballot box.

Anyway, it seems to be comin' like a train wreck:

SB2, a more limiting form of goverment even with its good points, to replace traditional town meeting.

and

More taxes, to lower our tax burden.

You'll all have to excuse me for not understanding..............

beancover · 01-06-2008, 03:17 PM

The state of NH has discovered a gold mine on the shores of its lakes, inhabited by those who can afford to pay and by some who cannot. Having already over burdened property owners who live on the water with exponentially sky-rocketing taxes, they have now decided to break the backs of the residents who can see the water. They have a great formula, ie: tax the people the most, who use the services least and who have no voice. Sounds like a plan only a govt could actually get away with. Moultonborough politicians are obscene in their spending practices. You'd think they lie in bed at night figuring out new ways to spend taxpayers money. Just wait until the mortgage crises forces many of those waterfront owners out of their vacation homes and greedy communities are left holding the bag. Only then will the wanton waste and spending come back to haunt them. Who's going to pay for their new playthings then?
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DREAMS · 01-20-2008, 09:08 AM

Just to clarify, this major issue is no simply a $50,000 discussion and research project to keep folks in town busy! This was scheduled to be a 2008 warrant article for ballot vote.

Once again, the whole point of this project and wishes to spend town money on such a large capital project during a "recession". Weather you or the town father's want to admit or deny, the entire country as well as local economy is and has been in a recession. The housing market has been in a recession for over a year regardless of the sub-prime market. The recession is expected to continue for up to 18 months according to experts. Once again, the point as beancover said is that the huge tax rate and costs of living will fall on those year-round residents left behind currrently struggling for a roof over their head, food on the table and stable employment providing enough income to cover living expenses. Seasonal folks will come and go but the year round residents are forced to pay the bills year after year.

MRJS · 02-19-2008, 02:05 PM

One way to put the brakes on this boondoggle is attending town voting and meetings.

Tuesday, March 11, 7AM to 7PM, Town Election at Public Safety

Saturday, March 15, 9AM, Town Meeting at Moultonborough Academy

I'm against the rec center. Keep taxes as low as possible. Citizens always spend money more wisely than government. The government has a right to tax for necessities, but not for niceties.

A rec center is wonderful, everybody likes a rec center, however that is not the point. There are a lot of wonderful things in the world that money can buy. The point is, that after taxing for necessities, any further tax is stealing.

01-01-2008, 02:31 PM	#1
DREAMS Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 51 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	5 Million Dollar Moultonboro Rec Center Proposal Has any local folks following the recent discussions and proposal of another $5 Million dollar project for Moultonboro Taxpayers to swallow? Even worse that we already spent close to $50,000 to create the proposed project! With the construction of the multimillion dollar safety building/fire station/police department and minimal use for town functions, it seems like the selectman/selectwomen are pushing for more major development as the previous financing bonds come to completion. With the state and local economies seriously hurting with employment and housing, it certainly doesn't see appropriate to be wasting hard earned tax dollar contributions on another huge project at this time. It appears making the investment to purchase the property for future development and growth wasn't good enough for the town leaders. They certainly are anxious to dig into our wallets first before we manage to determine what exists for our personal finances and current or future obligations. Moultonboro is quickly becoming an unaffordable town for the younger and middle age generation. Apparently our town leaders don't realize how many full time residents currently are required to commuter at least 1 hour or longer to work due to such poor local wage scales in comparison with housing costs. It seems like the "old money" and older folks who have owned their homes and have much smaller housing budgets are making the decisions for all residents regardless of affordability for all. They keep pushing how Moultonboro is growing to senior residents. The majority of younger or middle age seniors don't have spare change to be wasting with town projects beyond their minimum living accomodations, transportation, food costs, medical insurance, presicriptions, etc. I hope more residents speak up against the development of this project during such an unstable and bad economy locally and globally.

01-01-2008, 05:36 PM	#2
LIforrelaxin Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Long Island, not that one, the one on Winnipesaukee Posts: 2,834 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 884 Times in 517 Posts	What is the bottom line Before anyone can judge whether or not this project is a good thing, one has to understand the bottom line, which I as of yet do not. Is there a Tax increase planned to fund this project? or is it to be bonded and paid on over time with money, that was going to a bond that has recently been paid. One has to have all the facts before rendering judgement. Personally I think a rec center is a good idea.... depending on what exactly is planned, which also I have not seen details on. If Moultonborough wants a chance to bring some industry to the area, to help it residents. They have to make the area attractive, so that a company can feel it will be worth while. That doesn't just mean perks for the company, that means making the community look stable, you do that by building a community which means things like rec-centers..... Moultonborough in my estimation is doing a good job. Sure they have and will have spending blunders all towns do..... The rework of the boat ramp by LI bridge for instance was an oops..... It is hard when so many people seem to be struggling to see the government throw money around, but having live in places where they waited to long to do capital improvements it is better to keep improvements coming at a steady pace, as opposed to waiting until it is too late and being forced to spend all at once....... __________________ Life is about how much time you can spend relaxing... I do it on an island that isn't really an island..... Last edited by LIforrelaxin; 01-01-2008 at 05:47 PM. Reason: stupid grammer errors

01-01-2008, 06:51 PM	#4
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,532 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 296 Thanked 957 Times in 698 Posts	Ask anyone in Moultonboro, and they will tell you that Meredith was always just an old asbestos shingle & Annalee doll type of a town that just happened to be on the waterfront. Looking down those long thin Moultonboro, pinched, Yankee noses, they were aghast when Meredith put up a three million dollar community center. I can hear their selectboard now,,,if Meredith can afford a 3mil center then, M-boro can certainly afford a 5mil center, and that's that!. Maybe they can hire Judd Gregg to play the Powerball? I hear he is tight with Selectwoman Betsey Patten. ................ Don't know if M-Boro is an SB-2 town or not......if no, maybe the Meredith SB-2 thread is worth a read. Probably, by the time an SB-2 petition gets passed, it's after the horse has run away, and the police-fire-school-library-community center has already been built. All these facilities are excellent community services but it's paying for everything with their property tax that is killing some people. I do not know too much about the Meredith Community Center and how many adults-children use it and for what so I will not make any dopey comments about the baby sitting classes, an adult, in-door, badmitton league, the indoor rock climbing wall, or the community center on-site, person-in-charge who gets the super town health care package that I pay for with my $700./month property taxes, which in turn, means my health insurance is zero. Fortunately, I am healthy as a horse, and just as dumb! ................ Here's a newly proposed house bill to think about from yesterday's Union Leader. Rep James Kennedy D-Exeter has a bill that would do the following. 8% cap on property tax repeal interest & dividend tax 3.5% income tax exempt $22,000 for single taxpayer exempt additional $22,000 for single parent or married couple ............................ Rep Kennedy says it would capture a billion dollars a year loss from residents of Maine, Massachusetts & Vermont who work in New Hampshire but pay taxes in their native state. ............................. How would this bill effect you? How does your Moultonboro State Representative, NH State Board of Assessors Chair-person, & Moultonboro Select-person Betsey Patten think about it? I myself think it's a terrific plan and especially like the 8% tax cap, the two $22,000 exemptions, and the billion dollar tax capture. What it does is it places a tax on those with a better abiliy to pay a tax, as opposed to the property tax. Probably for many people across New Hampshire, this tax plan would be a real advantage. Please ask yourself, would it be one for you? __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake! Last edited by fatlazyless; 01-02-2008 at 06:37 AM.

01-02-2008, 07:10 AM	#6
Lakegeezer Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 1,657 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 342 Thanked 618 Times in 278 Posts	Something for the rest-of-us Good topic! I've heard about the center, but not much about the pros and cons of building it. My gut reaction so far is; built it. It won't likely be a big increase in taxes long term, and it provides something for my tax dollars that will probably be good for the town. There is little "community" in Moultonboro. Meredith is the center of gravity on the northern part of the lake, and its in a different county than M'boro. Having a place where adults can get to know each other will help the community. Putting an investment in growing the community spirit sounds like money well spent. __________________ -lg

01-02-2008, 12:30 PM	#8
Weirs guy Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Weirs Beach, NH Posts: 1,067 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Is there a more cost effective way to get this done? What does the $5M get you? Can existing facilities be renovated for less money? I have a problem with just building something "new" cause something not new isn't good enough anymore. Is that the case here? __________________ Is it bikeweek yet? Now?

01-02-2008, 04:43 PM	#10
John A. Birdsall Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Norwich, CT Posts: 599 Thanks: 27 Thanked 51 Times in 35 Posts	Cut spending NH, Conn.,Federal Gov't and perhaps all governments need to cut spending, and one is the wages and increases they have given themselves. A freshman in the legislature should not get high level pay, and they should not be allowed to serve more than two terms. Their retirement program should be the same as anyone else drawing social security Serve a term as a senator and get the same pay for the rest of your life. Who in their right mind would ever put that system in place.

01-02-2008, 04:59 PM	#11
Skip Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Dover, NH Posts: 1,615 Thanks: 256 Thanked 514 Times in 182 Posts	A few facts behind this thread controversy.... Why I don't live in Moultonborough or have a stake in this proposal, it only took me about 20 seconds to find a story clarifying this proposal. Apparently this is not a done deal or an idea foisted upon the town by the "town fathers". Rather it was an idea expressed by a citizen's committee, a committe who's chair resigned after receiving heavy criticism of the proposal, in particular its estimated price tag. While a project of this magnitude for a community with a tax base the size of the town in question is cause for concern & serious review, this proposal is nothing more than that...and idea expressed by a sub committee of citizens formed to review and suggest ideas concerning Moultonborough's recreational opportunities. A story in the Citizen explaining more can be read HERE.

01-02-2008, 05:06 PM	#12
KonaChick Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 518 Thanks: 19 Thanked 62 Times in 15 Posts	The committee was alloted $41,000 for a two year process of analysis. Give me a "tax break"!!!

01-02-2008, 07:07 PM	#15
Skip Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Dover, NH Posts: 1,615 Thanks: 256 Thanked 514 Times in 182 Posts	apologies to KC I apologize if maybe I came off harsh or overbearing. I agree with you, many times the minority of residents that do show up for these meetings do spend, and spend significantly. Unfortunately the majority of eligible voters seem to always stay at home and let the minority decide their fate & future! My only point was to dispel the inferences of some others who believe that a select few (the so called "town fathers") are making arbitrary decisions for the community, when it is in fact the community itself whether by omission or participation that is deciding its own fate. And thank you for the compliment....it is much appreciated!

01-02-2008, 08:42 PM	#16
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,532 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 296 Thanked 957 Times in 698 Posts	Even if an SB-2 petiton is successfully passed by a majority, it's still probably too late for this issue. The horse has already done run off, and it's just too late for fix'n the barn door. A few people in each town who hold positions as selectmen, state reps, town managers: they really know the ins and outs of getting non-candidate issues passed, plus they are smarter than you & me, and have experience with the local town political aparatus. In other words: they know very well what they are doing and how to get a yes vote on their issue. Maybe, the answer is to move to Livermore NH, a relatively nearby town with a huge area and a population of zero or maybe just one person. i could be the mayor.......Mr Mayor fatlazyless....sounds nice! Gee whiz....maybe zero prop taxes? It says the last resident left town in 1949, so probably there's no interest for a fancy community center with an adult dodge ball league! (Wikipedia has it.) __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

01-02-2008, 09:49 PM	#18
longislander Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 501 Thanks: 43 Thanked 93 Times in 70 Posts	Kudos, Skip!!!

01-03-2008, 08:09 AM	#20
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,532 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 296 Thanked 957 Times in 698 Posts	SB-2 vs town meeting vote Everything that Skip says is true and correct, with my emphasis on Skip's opening sentence; "The fine folks of Moultonboro that chose to show up at the March 2006 town meeting authorized.... ", and that is what SB-2 is specifically all about. SB-2 has many more residents engaged in voting for town items like a community center, than does the town meeting form of voting. By reading thru the nearby Meredith SB-2 Petition thread, you can learn and compare the differences and advantages of SB-2 verses the 'town meeting' form of voting, and there are some big differences. Town meeting vote is a decision by the few, and SB-2 is a decision by the many, who are voters. Skip can say that showing up at town meeting is their personal choice. And, I say it is also the voters personal choice to go with SB-2 or not. This choice is up to the majority in every NH town, and about 65 NH towns have switched to SB-2 with just three then later deciding to go back to the town meeting. SB-2 has been a local option since this state-wide law was passed in 1995. And hey Skip, which very articulate poster on this forum has mentioned that he himself is also the town meeting moderator for his New Hampshire hometown? ....pssst, was his name 'Skip'? __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

01-03-2008, 01:35 PM	#23
Lucky2Bhere Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Moultonboro & SE Florida Posts: 94 Thanks: 3 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	From what I understand the Moultonborough tax rate will go up to pay for the community center. If most of the towns money comes from waterfront homes most of the bill will be paid by the seasonal residents who will use the center least or not at all. Is this fair?

01-03-2008, 04:53 PM	#24
TomC Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Lakes Region Posts: 547 Thanks: 9 Thanked 29 Times in 20 Posts	fairness? Not sure fairness is part of the decision criteria! Why wouldn't a fulltime resident vote to pass something that will be useful to them, yet cost them little? Best tax is always the one the other guy pays, right?

01-03-2008, 06:05 PM	#25
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,532 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 296 Thanked 957 Times in 698 Posts	...towns & cities Ok ok ok Skip, it's not like I take written notes on this forum, I read the posts for education & entertainment & expression purposes or 'triple E' & after that I forget about them for a while. For me, the key word was moderator. Anyway, as someone who knows quite a bit about New Hampshire laws, and political & election procedures, you add a lot to this forum. Here's an SB-2 question for you. It is my understanding that the SB-2 law, created in 1995, can be used in NH towns but not in NH cities. What do you think the SB-2 creators were thinking when they wrote this law and why did they allow its' use in towns, but not in cities? __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake! Last edited by fatlazyless; 01-04-2008 at 07:46 PM.

01-03-2008, 07:38 PM	#28
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,532 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 296 Thanked 957 Times in 698 Posts	Thanks for the 'no charge' opinion, Skip. I was thinkin' that If it was a 'fee for service' opinion, I'd be turnin' it in to the Town of Meredith at the same time that I turn in the two SB-2 petitions with the required minimum of 25 votes each. Town Hall.....that's where all the money is....and in Meredith, the town hall building was originally built to be a 1920's savings bank w/ teller's windows, so now it's the home of the real big money. __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

01-06-2008, 03:17 PM	#30
beancover Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	5 million dollar rec center proposal The state of NH has discovered a gold mine on the shores of its lakes, inhabited by those who can afford to pay and by some who cannot. Having already over burdened property owners who live on the water with exponentially sky-rocketing taxes, they have now decided to break the backs of the residents who can see the water. They have a great formula, ie: tax the people the most, who use the services least and who have no voice. Sounds like a plan only a govt could actually get away with. Moultonborough politicians are obscene in their spending practices. You'd think they lie in bed at night figuring out new ways to spend taxpayers money. Just wait until the mortgage crises forces many of those waterfront owners out of their vacation homes and greedy communities are left holding the bag. Only then will the wanton waste and spending come back to haunt them. Who's going to pay for their new playthings then? beancover is online now Report Post Edit/Delete Message

01-20-2008, 09:08 AM	#31
DREAMS Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 51 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	This proposal was scheduled for a warrant article Just to clarify, this major issue is no simply a $50,000 discussion and research project to keep folks in town busy! This was scheduled to be a 2008 warrant article for ballot vote. Once again, the whole point of this project and wishes to spend town money on such a large capital project during a "recession". Weather you or the town father's want to admit or deny, the entire country as well as local economy is and has been in a recession. The housing market has been in a recession for over a year regardless of the sub-prime market. The recession is expected to continue for up to 18 months according to experts. Once again, the point as beancover said is that the huge tax rate and costs of living will fall on those year-round residents left behind currrently struggling for a roof over their head, food on the table and stable employment providing enough income to cover living expenses. Seasonal folks will come and go but the year round residents are forced to pay the bills year after year.

02-19-2008, 02:05 PM	#32
MRJS Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 50 Thanks: 42 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	Town Elections and Meetings One way to put the brakes on this boondoggle is attending town voting and meetings. Tuesday, March 11, 7AM to 7PM, Town Election at Public Safety Saturday, March 15, 9AM, Town Meeting at Moultonborough Academy I'm against the rec center. Keep taxes as low as possible. Citizens always spend money more wisely than government. The government has a right to tax for necessities, but not for niceties. A rec center is wonderful, everybody likes a rec center, however that is not the point. There are a lot of wonderful things in the world that money can buy. The point is, that after taxing for necessities, any further tax is stealing.