Maingas "insufficient propane use" fee

[TomC]

I had my kitchen remodeled over the winter and thus was not there for the off-season and thus did not consume any propane. Maingas wants me to pay them $75 for nothing as a "convenience fee". Has anyone else been similarly billed? Have you gotten the company to drop this fee?

if I end up canceling my arrangement with Maingas, any recommendations for another company who can provide propane in Moultonboro? I Have a gas range and a fireplace insert, so i do not use much, and thus am not highly sensitive to the price/gallon. I don't want to pay minimums or "convenience fees" though. thanks.

[Argie's Wife]

I just got slapped with a similar fee by Eastern Propane and Oil last week. Because my work has dropped off a little, and because we use a Crock-Pot a lot in the winter, I used less than 50% of my LP gas tank last year. I thought conserving fuel was a good thing until I got a bill for $49 for insufficient propane use.

When I called to dispute the bill, I was told that the policy was put in effect in 2006 and notices were sent out to all LP gas customers. The fee is to cover the cost of the tanks, because they're made of steel and steel does not depreciate in value, and for the insurance the gas company has to pay on the tanks and parts outside of the house.

Ironically, LP gas is the only fuel that costs less per unit the more you use - so much for "being green"....

[robmac]

My friend in MA has propane and installed a high efficiency furnace and got hit with the same fee. He called and stated if you don't want my business fine I'll go elsewhere. They forgave the fee.

[phoenix]

I think Eastern minimum is 200 gallons per year

[Winnisquamguy]

I had the same problem only with Amerigas they charge me $35.00 I called them and asked about it and was told I have to use over 100 gallons a year.

[RLW]

Now I stopped all that crap and I bought my tanks and I can use any supplier without saying a word. No fees and it is a will call business. Right now gas is being delivered by Eastern, but a phone call can change that if necessary. Ya, the 2 tanks cost me 1K, but I do not have to worry about tanks being replaced if I want to change my dealer.

[MarkinNH]

Originally Posted by TomC

I had my kitchen remodeled over the winter and thus was not there for the off-season and thus did not consume any propane. Maingas wants me to pay them $75 for nothing as a "convenience fee". Has anyone else been similarly billed? Have you gotten the company to drop this fee?

if I end up canceling my arrangement with Maingas, any recommendations for another company who can provide propane in Moultonboro? I Have a gas range and a fireplace insert, so i do not use much, and thus am not highly sensitive to the price/gallon. I don't want to pay minimums or "convenience fees" though. thanks.

Where as you "don't use much" any supplier you go with is going to charge a premium price per gallon and most likely fees for "tank rental" etc. I know folks who are paying upwards of $6.00 or more, per gallon because of their low consumption in their seasonal homes.
To avoid the fees you need to meet the minimums, the more propane you buy/use the cheaper the price per gallon.
All the Propane Companys do it. It stinks but it is just the way it is.
The only way to avoid tank rental fees etc. is to do what RLW has done and own your tanks, even then you will still pay the premium price per gallon due to low usage.

[songkrai]

Originally Posted by RLW

Now I stopped all that crap and I bought my tanks and I can use any supplier without saying a word. No fees and it is a will call business. Right now gas is being delivered by Eastern, but a phone call can change that if necessary. Ya, the 2 tanks cost me 1K, but I do not have to worry about tanks being replaced if I want to change my dealer.

Have you tried to purchase propane from another company after you purchased your tanks? And if so, what was the procedure?

It is my understanding that each company must come inside and record every gas/propane appliance serial numbers and such and check that all is up to date fittings. For each provider of propane.

Owning your own tanks does provide cheaper price for propane. But I don't think you can just call up any propane company and ask for a delivery as is with oil. But if your experience is different please advise.

[TomC]

here's a question: is it possible, legal, etc, to just use a 20 lb BBQ tank to run the stove? I am toying with the idea of removing the fireplace insert anyway. Since that leaves just the range, i wonder if i'd be OK since its a 3 season property and not much baking is done there.

[lawn psycho]

The reason they need the minimum is they have upfront costs with the tank. They are not cheap so if you don't buy a minimum amount of fuel they have huge carrying costs and it would take them many, many years to recoup the cost. The tanks aren't free.

My builder got me my tank for my gas F/P at cost (120 gallon) and it was around $400 bucks for the tank and regulator (somewhere close to that number I don't recall exact price).

In order to be able to shop for gas prices your only option is to buy your own tank and cough up the money upfront as was mentioned above.

[tis]

You would need to check for sure but I think it is now illegal for the gas companies to sell the tanks. We have three and the last one they were not allowed to sell us.

[martran]

I would suggest that you talk with Rymes oil and propane in ossipee. We had problems with Amerigas with hidden fees so we asked them to come get their tanks. We have been using Rymes this season and are very happy with the service we are getting!

[fatlazyless]

Lowe's Gilford has the 25-gal, 200-lb tanks(when full) and appropriate regulators, compression flare fittings, and 3/8" soft copper tubing for do-it-yourselfers who want to rig up a propane system that puts out enough pressure to run a kitchen stove and maybe a small propane heater; something like a 15k btu heater. These are the tanks that see a lot of use out on the islands, and can occaisionally be seen being towed behind a boat, floating in the water while loaded full of propane, for a return trip back to someone's island home.

The car repair business which used to be an Irving Gasoline, across from the Meredith Ford, has a big propane tank outside, and it will fill up a 25-gal tank, that's in the back of a pickup truck.

If you look closely at the collar on a 100 gallon-400-lb propane tank, it has the date of manufactor stamped into it, plus any re-pressure test, re-certification stamps. Every ten years, the steel tanks are supposed to get retested by undergoing a pressure test to make sure it has no new pin hole leaks or cracks in the steel or the welds. Chances are pretty good that your 100 gal, Q tank was originally fabricated in the 1970's and just gets a retest every ten years. The stamped dates on the upper collar, underneath a coat or two of paint will display that info.

In some U.S. states, the delivered propane gas business is a regulated utility, much like the electric utility or the natural gas utility, and has to apply to the local state public utility board for any price increases and surcharge increases etc, but here in New Hampshire it is pretty much considered a private business as opposed to a public utility.

Amerigas, based in Pennsylvania, is the largest truck delivered or bottled propane company in the country, and it pays a lot of attention to any state that may want to start regulating its' business like it was a public utility.

I heard that Amerigas-Laconia no longer has a service dept and no longer does any propane service like installs or 'heat off' calls and now just does propane delivery. Is that correct? They used to have a pretty busy service dept. Wonder what happened?

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by tis

You would need to check for sure but I think it is now illegal for the gas companies to sell the tanks. We have three and the last one they were not allowed to sell us.

Buy it from a Maine plumbing supply and then call a gas installer to hook it up for you and leak check it.

With prices high the pay-back is pretty quick especially when you start getting hit with the rental fees when you don't use much gas.

[MarkinNH]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Lowe's Gilford has the 25-gal, 200-lb tanks(when full) and appropriate regulators, compression flare fittings, and 3/8" soft copper tubing for do-it-yourselfers who want to rig up a propane system that puts out enough pressure to run a kitchen stove and maybe a small propane heater; something like a 15k btu heater. These are the tanks that see a lot of use out on the islands, and can occaisionally be seen being towed behind a boat, floating in the water while loaded full of propane, for a return trip back to someone's island home.

The car repair business which used to be an Irving Gasoline, across from the Meredith Ford, has a big propane tank outside, and it will fill up a 25-gal tank, that's in the back of a pickup truck.

If you look closely at the collar on a 100 gallon-400-lb propane tank, it has the date of manufactor stamped into it, plus any re-pressure test, re-certification stamps. Every ten years, the steel tanks are supposed to get retested by undergoing a pressure test to make sure it has no new pin hole leaks or cracks in the steel or the welds. Chances are pretty good that your 100 gal, Q tank was originally fabricated in the 1970's and just gets a retest every ten years. The stamped dates on the upper collar, underneath a coat or two of paint will display that info.

In some U.S. states, the delivered propane gas business is a regulated utility, much like the electric utility or the natural gas utility, and has to apply to the local state public utility board for any price increases and surcharge increases etc, but here in New Hampshire it is pretty much considered a private business as opposed to a public utility.

Amerigas, based in Pennsylvania, is the largest truck delivered or bottled propane company in the country, and it pays a lot of attention to any state that may want to start regulating its' business like it was a public utility.

I heard that Amerigas-Laconia no longer has a service dept and no longer does any propane service like installs or 'heat off' calls and now just does propane delivery. Is that correct? They used to have a pretty busy service dept. Wonder what happened?

fatlazyless I am impressed !
That was the most normal sounding and informational post of you re's that I have read. I enjoyed reading it and even learned a few things.
Thank you and Happy Easter.

PS. As I recall, I also heard something similar about Amerigas.

[songkrai]

Originally Posted by tis

You would need to check for sure but I think it is now illegal for the gas companies to sell the tanks. We have three and the last one they were not allowed to sell us.

Yes, you can purchase your own propane tanks. Only a few propane providers are willing to sell you tanks though. Some will sell you new tanks and reconditioned tanks. The reconditioned tanks have all new fittings and freshly painted. Tanks are not cheap.

Another note:

Few of the propane delivery companies actually own the tanks they place on your property/home. Most of the propane tanks that the propane companies place on your property are leased tanks from another company. The propane delivery company has to pay this lease fee and they are just passing this fee onto you the customer. If you use a lot of propane most propane delivery companies waive that fee.

There is no easy answer when dealing with propane. And if I had it to do all over again it would be oil.

I am happy for you folks who have pellets, geo-thermal, solar, etc. But oil is just so much simpler.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Lowe's Gilford has the 25-gal, 200-lb tanks(when full) and appropriate regulators, compression flare fittings, and 3/8" soft copper tubing for do-it-yourselfers who want to rig up a propane system that puts out enough pressure to run a kitchen stove and maybe a small propane heater; something like a 15k btu heater. These are the tanks that see a lot of use out on the islands, and can occaisionally be seen being towed behind a boat, floating in the water while loaded full of propane, for a return trip back to someone's island home.

The car repair business which used to be an Irving Gasoline, across from the Meredith Ford, has a big propane tank outside, and it will fill up a 25-gal tank, that's in the back of a pickup truck.

If you look closely at the collar on a 100 gallon-400-lb propane tank, it has the date of manufactor stamped into it, plus any re-pressure test, re-certification stamps. Every ten years, the steel tanks are supposed to get retested by undergoing a pressure test to make sure it has no new pin hole leaks or cracks in the steel or the welds. Chances are pretty good that your 100 gal, Q tank was originally fabricated in the 1970's and just gets a retest every ten years. The stamped dates on the upper collar, underneath a coat or two of paint will display that info.

In some U.S. states, the delivered propane gas business is a regulated utility, much like the electric utility or the natural gas utility, and has to apply to the local state public utility board for any price increases and surcharge increases etc, but here in New Hampshire it is pretty much considered a private business as opposed to a public utility.

Amerigas, based in Pennsylvania, is the largest truck delivered or bottled propane company in the country, and it pays a lot of attention to any state that may want to start regulating its' business like it was a public utility.

I heard that Amerigas-Laconia no longer has a service dept and no longer does any propane service like installs or 'heat off' calls and now just does propane delivery. Is that correct? They used to have a pretty busy service dept. Wonder what happened?

Propane is one of those installs that the do it yourselfer shouldn't do. I'm pretty sure only licensed installers are allowed to install propane systems now. One mistake and kaboom. In fact, I thought places like Lowe's stopped selling the gas pipe and fittings to the public. (Connecting and disconnecting a tank is much different from running propane lines through your house.)

[RLW]

Originally Posted by songkrai

Have you tried to purchase propane from another company after you purchased your tanks? And if so, what was the procedure?

It is my understanding that each company must come inside and record every gas/propane appliance serial numbers and such and check that all is up to date fittings. For each provider of propane.
Owning your own tanks does provide cheaper price for propane. But I don't think you can just call up any propane company and ask for a delivery as is with oil. But if your experience is different please advise.

My first comment is regarding purchasing my tanks. I went to a plumbing supply house and purchased them without any difficulty. I believe it was a shade over $538 for each 120# tank including delivery cost.

Yes. I just called the gas company and told them that I would like my tanks filled and they just asked if I have used them before (account with them) and I just said no and they are homeowner tanks. They said OK and made arrangements for a service tech come to the house at no cost and check for possible leaks and filled out the appropriate paperwork and gave me a copy and the following day the gas was delivered. Oh, I had to open an account and they asked for a payment for an amount that it would cost to fill them using the % left in the tanks. Anything above or below the payment was either credited or collected at the time of the delivery.

As mentioned above they just checked the system for leaks and that is done in my case at the generator and with just a gage. I can not answer if they would have to check each appliance.

Regarding the cost both companies I used gave me the cost up front even before I told them what it was for. In my case I know the price wasn't higher because all I was using it for was a generator therefore use would be low usage making the price higher than someone doing their whole home.
Hope this helps and answers some of your questions, but each company/service can very, but a phone call will solve that problem.

[songkrai]

Originally Posted by RLW

My first comment is regarding purchasing my tanks. I went to a plumbing supply house and purchased them without any difficulty. I believe it was a shade over $538 for each 120# tank including delivery cost.

Yes. I just called the gas company and told them that I would like my tanks filled and they just asked if I have used them before (account with them) and I just said no and they are homeowner tanks. They said OK and made arrangements for a service tech come to the house at no cost and check for possible leaks and filled out the appropriate paperwork and gave me a copy and the following day the gas was delivered. Oh, I had to open an account and they asked for a payment for an amount that it would cost to fill them using the % left in the tanks. Anything above or below the payment was either credited or collected at the time of the delivery.

As mentioned above they just checked the system for leaks and that is done in my case at the generator and with just a gage. I can not answer if they would have to check each appliance.

Regarding the cost both companies I used gave me the cost up front even before I told them what it was for. In my case I know the price wasn't higher because all I was using it for was a generator therefore use would be low usage making the price higher than someone doing their whole home.
Hope this helps and answers some of your questions, but each company/service can very, but a phone call will solve that problem.

Look. I own my own takes and I am with you on this.

You state that you went out and purchased the tanks. Who hooked them up? Probably a propane company and you had to open an account and they checked all fittings.

So in this scenario, you must call, fill out application, with each and every propane company in order to shop around for all good prices. This may not be a hassle for you. But my guess is that most do not want all these technicians coming into their homes each time you open a new propane account and the required paperwork and credit checks. But once this is done/accomplished - then you can just phone around for the best propane price. It's a trade off I guess. I do get lower propane costs. But factor in the price and installation of an owned propane tank and how much are you relly saving? I guess if you view this in the long term the payoff may be worth it.

I just recommend oil to people. With oil, you can swap around companies without anyone coming insdie your kitchen, basement, etc. and recording all serial numbers of all appliances.

[RLW]

Originally Posted by songkrai

Look. I own my own takes and I am with you on this.

You state that you went out and purchased the tanks. Who hooked them up? Probably a propane company and you had to open an account and they checked all fittings.

I hired an independent gas fitter at a very reasonable price, $139 including parts.

So in this scenario, you must call, fill out application, with each and every propane company in order to shop around for all good prices.

No, only the company that you choice to use.

This may not be a hassle for you. But my guess is that most do not want all these technicians coming into their homes each time you open a new propane account and the required paperwork and credit checks.

Question to you, how many times do you plan on changing companies. Now me I do not plan on changing unless something comes up with a company that upsets me. That doesn't mean every time the prices go up.

But once this is done/accomplished - then you can just phone around for the best propane price. It's a trade off I guess. I do get lower propane costs. But factor in the price and installation of an owned propane tank and how much are you relly saving? I guess if you view this in the long term the payoff may be worth it.

I just recommend oil to people. With oil, you can swap around companies without anyone coming insdie your kitchen, basement, etc. and recording all serial numbers of all appliances.

I agree with the oil as that is what I have,but what if the homestead is all gas appliances, you can't just up and change everything for the sake to change to oil. Now my generator is just natural or propane gas. That's awful hard to change to oil.

[MooseRiverMan]

I have the same two propane tanks that were here when I bought in 1973. Used to be Wallce Energy, then AmeriGas took over and I have to pay $36 per tank rental fee each year. No choice

[fatlazyless]

Used to be, the New England Telephone Co would only rent out rotary dial phones for 2.75/month and there was no option to purchase your own phone.

By owning the tanks, the local propane company goes a long way in eliminating price shopping and keeps their price/gallon probably higher than if people could easily just call around for the best price by easily switching propane suppliers.

About the only special tool you need to install a Rinnai heater or a kitchen stove with propane is a ten dollar flaring tool used to put flared ends on 3/8 soft copper tubing. The propane has a built in nasty odor so's you immediately know if the flare leaks or not........any dunderhead should be able to do it........duh.....just go test it for leaks with a match......go propane......go kaboom!

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

The propane has a built in nasty odor so's you immediately know if the flare leaks or not........any dunderhead should be able to do it........duh.....just go test it for leaks with a match......go propane......go kaboom!

Hey FLL, I just installed a new propane heater and I think I smell something. Can you come over and check it with your matches please?

[jrc]

FLL you never cease to amaze me.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

About the only special tool you need to install a Rinnai heater or a kitchen stove with propane is a ten dollar flaring tool used to put flared ends on 3/8 soft copper tubing. The propane has a built in nasty odor so's you immediately know if the flare leaks or not........any dunderhead should be able to do it........duh.....just go test it for leaks with a match......go propane......go kaboom!

If you don't know how to flare the end of tubing, you can just pick up the tool at big box stores. Very easy.

[fatlazyless]

Tryin to think of somethin intelligent to say here....so here goes....the propane inside the 3/8" soft copper tubing is a gas, while the propane stored in the bottom 3/4 of the propane tank outside is a liquid which changes into a gas, depending upon the outside temperature, when the liquid propane gets introduced to outside air via the gas line regulators. How's that sound? Make any sense to anyone?

For about three bucks the local hardware store should sell a liquid propane leak detector that is used to test every compression fitting connection for leaks because some gas leaks are so fine and small that there is no leak odor present. It's a syrupy liquid that comes in a small plastic bottle with a little brush attached to the cap. Liquid dish cleaner can also be used as a leak detector but the real stuff works better.

Leaking propane can become explosive just like leaking gasoline fumes. Typically, what happens is a leaking compression fitting with a not-too-good flare fills a confined area like a basement with flammable vapors which explode when ignited by a flame or a spark. Something like an oil fired boiler could start up when the upstairs thermostat calls for heat and ignite the leaky propane fumes with a small or great big explosion depending on how much propane fumes are present. The leaky propane fumes are very easy to smell.....it really stinks.....and sometimes people will mistake it for a dead animal like a dead squirrel that eat some rat poison down in a crawl space or somewhere.

[Happy Gourmand]

I was told, or read somewhere that natural gas is odorless....that the odor is actually added to make it more detectable. I wonder if the same is true for propane?

[CateP]

Originally Posted by The Phantom Gourmand

I was told, or read somewhere that natural gas is odorless....that the odor is actually added to make it more detectable. I wonder if the same is true for propane?

I can answer this. While I was researching propane safety I found this:

"Propane, or LP gas, has no odor in its natural state. A strong-smelling substance called ethyl mercaptan is added to propane to warn consumers of a leak." (Source from link below)

BUT that odor can fade and has been thought to be the cause of many severe propane leak accidents. Read about it here.

[jrc]

According to wiki the odor is added, and for the same reason it's added to natural gas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propane_gas

Please don't install your own gas appliances. It's not hard to do, but someone is going to screw it up and get hurt or killed. Just call someone with the proper license.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

When I was a teen, I worked in a pizza place with 4 big gas ovens. I was really surprised to see that when the technician checked the gas lines and connections he used a match on the end of a telescoping rod with an alligator clip. He waved the flame over all the tubes and connections. A leak in the deep recesses of the oven would catch on fire and he would adjust the fittings to remedy.

Years later I built a printing machine that was installed in England and the codes required that we install a unit to constantly monitor and a alarm if the concentration of solvent went above a certain level before it could reach and explosive level. I was equally surprised to find that the industry method of determining if the air was safe from exploding was to maintain a precision flame about the size of a candle flame. The flame was fueled by a tank of hydrogen. Precision optics monitored how bright the flame glowed. As the amount of solvent in the air increased, the brightness of the flame would increase as well. It was thus possible to tell exactly how much solvent was in the air as a percentage of the explosive level.

[Pineedles]

Middletown Power Plant Explosion: Focus On Worker's Torch
POWER PLANT EXPLOSION>> Read stories about the victims of the Middletown explosion
February 09, 2010|By JOSH KOVNER and DAVE ALTIMARI, The Hartford CourantInvestigators are focusing on a welder's torch as the possible cause of Sunday's deadly blast at the Kleen Energy Systems power plant, sources said.

The explosion that killed five and hospitalized 27 people occurred immediately after the purging, or cleaning, of the underground natural gas pipeline that runs about 800 to 1,000 feet through the plant.

• Pictures: Middletown Plant Explosion
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Sources familiar with the probe and with the purging operation said that welding work wasn't entirely halted during or immediately after the purging Sunday morning. That operation can result in an accumulation of natural gas that must be vented from rooms and enclosures before ignition sources, such as a welder's torch, can be safely introduced, experts said

[songkrai]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverMan

I have the same two propane tanks that were here when I bought in 1973. Used to be Wallce Energy, then AmeriGas took over and I have to pay $36 per tank rental fee each year. No choice

I'm gonna have to assume that all the fittings to all of the appliances have been upgraded at some point. No propane company should be selling you propane unless this has been done.