Littoral Rights

[ike]

Anyone know of "littoral rights"?

[jack1706]

the right as a landowner abutting a lake, etc. to use the water adjacent to it and enjoy the beach etc. Yes?

[Bear Islander]

"Literal ownership", "riparian rights" and "common law" in relation to a lake refer to certain rights of access enjoyed by waterfront property owners. The State owns the lake but waterfront property owners have common law rights. A simple way to translate "common law" is "the way it has always been done".

[Scupper]

Common Law is from England, it is still used to some degree as a guide, based on case law. In New Hampshire "public waters" means exactly that, they are available for public use. If a family pulls up in front of your waterfront residence and drops anchor (rafting zone excluded), then piles out the family with lounge chairs in six inches of water, they are legally using the public waters of the state. I know some of you will not agree...but that's the deal. Look it up, I did.

[Woodsy]

The lakes in NH are essentially State Parks, open to the public.


Scupper is pretty much spot on with the way the laws are written.... In fact the people can put chairs on your beach as long as they don't cross the high water mark.... people can walk along any of the Winni shoreline and cross anyones dock they wish...

However.... they cannot block access to your dock! You cannot anchor your boat in such a fashion as to block a property owners access... I am sure the property owners have other rights as well... I know Bear Islander is pretty up on this stuff?? BI???

Why someone would want to park thier boat in front of someones property like that is beyond me. Although with more and more No Rafting Zones this is probably going to become a larger issue.

Woodsy

[Little Bear]

What about the littoral rights of a waterfront property owner on a small lake in NH? This seems to be a gray area as far as the State is concerned. The littoral rights (I think?) allow the property owner to put a dock into the lake and also put a mooring out in the lake. There is no permit required for either the dock or the mooring on the smaller lakes in NH since they are "unregulated" by the State.

Conversely, what are the rules/regulations regarding someone other than the property owner putting a mooring in front of their property, or for that matter, putting in a dock (that doesn't touch the property owner's land)? Certainly there has to be some kind of regulation covering these matters.

[Onshore]

If anyone here is really curious I have a copy of the Report on Public Water Rights from the Public Water Rights in New Hampshire Study Commitee dated December 1992.

[Little Bear]

Originally Posted by shore things

If anyone here is really curious I have a copy of the Report on Public Water Rights from the Public Water Rights in New Hampshire Study Commitee dated December 1992.

Shore Things: How would one obtain a copy of this report?

Thanks, LB

[Onshore]

I looked online and couldn't any links to it. Will you be in the concord area any time soon? Since it was generated by a legislative committee there should be a copy at the NH State Library here in Concord. Or you are welcome to stop by DES and I'll have a copy made for you. It is a pretty hefty document so I can't make a lot of copies but I can accomodate a few people who could then share it with others.

[Little Bear]

Shore Things: That would be fantastic - thank you for the offer. I'll send you a PM in a few minutes.

I appreciate the assistance.

LB

[Kamper]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

... as long as they don't cross the high water mark....

Woodsy

I believe that would be the natural high-water mark. Since the lake level is artificially maintained there is room to quibble on that point. As long as my feet are wet though, I'd ignore anyone who tried to move me along.

[State]

I could really use some wise counsel. What about very occasionally using others' floating docks that aren't attached to a landowner's property?

There are a couple of people on my smaller, largely unregulated lake--at least as far as docks and boat moorings go--who treat their unattached floating docks in public waterways as if they haven't seceded any control of them whatsoever.

Yet, it seems when one puts his private property in a public setting--where anyone has a legal right to be--that he should lose some degree of control over his private property. That's not to say others can monopolize, control, or damage it.

There was a legal case just a few years ago in another state that's likely analogous. Someone put a chair on the side of a road where he liked to sit and observe traffic and such, which is public right of way, and expected that no one else could use it. When others did he attempted to have them arrested. But the case--how it became one is beyond me--ended with the court saying it's reasonable to let others have access to his chair when he's not using it. He loses some degree of control of his property based on where he placed it.

I think the same thing should apply to floating docks.

When two of my young sons asked for permission to use a neighbor's floating dock and I said yes for the first time the owner accosted me, accusing me of using her beach, where we had never set foot. She threatened to call the police the next time it occurred.

And the young boys--11 and nine--were on it for less than five minutes when no one else was using it.

It's certainly a gray area, when private property is placed in public waterways. Next year when I purchase our own floating dock, perhaps the shoes will be on the other foot. But I do think I'd be a little more lenient about the prospect of others jumping off it. Can't put fences on the water, even if they do help make for better neighbors.

[upthesaukee]

I personally would never put my neighbor in a position of legal liability for the use of their constructed or purchased floating dock.

I was brought up to stay out of other people's property unless invited in. This included cutting through neighbor's yard whose kids I played with, but were not playing there at the time. Our kids were brought up the same.

Yeah, I know, public lake, public water, but hopefully if you moor a boat on your small, basically unregulated lake, no one will climb on board and take it for a spin .

IMHO, if you want the kids to have a swim platform, buy one or make one. In the meantime, use your beach. Again, just my opinion.

[jack1706]

Slate,

Wise Counsel ?

Why would you ever put your children in that position to EVER let them on someone else's property?????????

I don't get it... get your own and teach them the same !!!!!


don't get it at all...........

[tis]

Originally Posted by State

I could really use some wise counsel. What about very occasionally using others' floating docks that aren't attached to a landowner's property?

There are a couple of people on my smaller, largely unregulated lake--at least as far as docks and boat moorings go--who treat their unattached floating docks in public waterways as if they haven't seceded any control of them whatsoever.

Yet, it seems when one puts his private property in a public setting--where anyone has a legal right to be--that he should lose some degree of control over his private property. That's not to say others can monopolize, control, or damage it.

There was a legal case just a few years ago in another state that's likely analogous. Someone put a chair on the side of a road where he liked to sit and observe traffic and such, which is public right of way, and expected that no one else could use it. When others did he attempted to have them arrested. But the case--how it became one is beyond me--ended with the court saying it's reasonable to let others have access to his chair when he's not using it. He loses some degree of control of his property based on where he placed it.

I think the same thing should apply to floating docks.

When two of my young sons asked for permission to use a neighbor's floating dock and I said yes for the first time the owner accosted me, accusing me of using her beach, where we had never set foot. She threatened to call the police the next time it occurred.

And the young boys--11 and nine--were on it for less than five minutes when no one else was using it.

It's certainly a gray area, when private property is placed in public waterways. Next year when I purchase our own floating dock, perhaps the shoes will be on the other foot. But I do think I'd be a little more lenient about the prospect of others jumping off it. Can't put fences on the water, even if they do help make for better neighbors.

I think it takes a lot of nerve to use someone elses swim raft. In today's world no on dares to let anyone on their property for fear of getting sued. And it seems it is usually those who think they have a right to use other's property who would be the first ones to sue when something happened.

[Bear Islander]

State, you are in the wrong here. Your neighbors raft, boat, dock, car, canoe etc. are private property. Stay off them or ask permission. If they say no, stay off them period.

If your neighbors car is parked on a public street can you get in it and honk the horn. NO!

If one of your children cut a foot on your neighbors raft, would you look for compensation? I'm betting yes.

It may be legal to use a neighbors beach if you stay below the high water mark. But it would be rude. And just because something is legal doesn't mean it is the right thing to do. After all, adultery is legal.

[CGI3]

They ask your permission to use your neighbors raft??? And you said yes? C'mon! Who the heck are you to tell your kids it's ok to use, without permission, whats obviously not yours. What morals are you teaching these kids? Whats next? Their moored boat, canoe? Did it ever cross your mind to walk over to the neighbors, and ask if it was ok to use their raft?

[rick35]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

But it would be rude. And just because something is legal doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

Very well said!

[SAMIAM]

Someone should start a thread about all the good neigbors out there.Our neigbors are seasonal on both sides and we are year round except for a couple of Florida trips.Even though we aren't close social friends, we get along great and share everything.We use their dock when we have company and they (and the doggies) are welcome to use our beach.They are from the city so their dogs LOVE our lawn and they religiously follow with the scooper.
All of us pitch in if we see one another struggling with a boat,landscaping job,lost pet or come up short with a bottle of wine for company.
Didn't mean to hijack the thread...just another view from one of the lucky ones.

[jack1706]

Samiam--

we are the same way exactly....I think most of the lakefront is don't you?

But when the question is asked..I need wise council, sounds to me like that may not be the case here. We communicate with our neighbors on all those issues and it is never an issue..infact come on over and stay awhile too,is always what happens...

An unknown on my raft will definitely be questioned.. I quite frankly have never had this happen or seen it... but

I am sure those people are out there (obviously!)

When my bike is on public ways... I certainly don't expect someone to use it ( & what return It???) I think not..

by the way that would be a great new thread... because we have great people in Winter Harbor & all around the Lake !!


Aren't we all here for the same reason?

[tis]

We are VERY close friends with all our neighbors yet we wouldn't dream of using each other's docks etc. without asking if we needed to. I feel so lucky to have the friends/neighbors that we have.

[trfour]

We always let close friends/neighbors use our beach. They kept it spotless and an eye on everything, year round including motorcycle weeks. They would even help out putting the docks in and out. I left a drag there during the summer and would bring the tractor down during the enenings to rake out the sand castles that the children would build during the day. We've never had a problem there in over 18 years!
Whats that old saying about a little sugar goes a Long Way?... ... Well anyway, it's still working Great for us!

Look out for your neighbors when you can!