Canoe

[jetskier]

Hi all,

We stopped in for an early dinner at Canoe over the weekend. Since it was bike weekend, this seemed like a good choice to avoid the crowds.

The service was quite good; what surprised us was the entrees. Canoe has been a staple in the area for lobster mac&cheese. When the dish arrived it had only a few tiny pieces of lobster. In addition they were running a surf and turf special and the steak was about 3 oz with the smallest lobster tail I have ever seen ($30). We spent $100 for a meal that was less than filling. I sent an email to Canoe and they never responded, so I feel pretty guilt-free posting. I don't know whether this is now their trend or we caught the cook on a particularly miserly evening.

Jetskier

[ITD]

I thought lobster was cheap now, oh well. I'm pretty sure you can order different amounts of lobster with the mac and cheese, my daughters love the stuff. I hope this was a one time issue and not a decline, that would be a shame....

[Legionnaire70]

Lobster is cheap right now... Every place I've been to the price has been through the roof.
I have had the lobster Mac at the C-man in Ashland, same deal! Little to no lobster.

Over the last few years I have had very poor results dining at any Common Man establishment. Only way I found to resolve it is I stopped eating there. It's too bad because they use to be good! Maybe Alex Ray should focus on service and food quality verses opening another restaurant like its a marathon! Just my 2cents...

[jetskier]

Hi all,

After I posted to the forum, Canoe did respond and they indicated that the dishes are prepared with the following ingredient weights.

Surf and Turf Special ($30):

4.5 oz lobster tail
4 oz filet (pre-cooked weight)

Lobster Mac&Cheese ($22):

4 oz lobster meat

__________________________________________________ ________

Lobsters prices are the lowest that they have been in a decade:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...er-prices.html

It seems that prices in the local restaurants are not reflective of the market conditions.

Jetskier

[Winnisquamguy]

Originally Posted by jetskier

Hi all,

After I posted to the forum, Canoe did respond and they indicated that the dishes are prepared with the following ingredient weights.

Surf and Turf Special ($30):

4.5 oz lobster tail
4 oz filet (pre-cooked weight)

Lobster Mac&Cheese ($22):

4 oz lobster meat

__________________________________________________ ________

Lobsters prices are the lowest that they have been in a decade:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...er-prices.html

It seems that prices in the local restaurants are not reflective of the market conditions.

Jetskier

If you are looking for lobster this weekend Christmas Island is where to go.Lobsterfest 2013.jpg

[codeman671]

Lobsters and steamers are half the price of steak tips and have been for a long time. To pay $30 for a 4.5oz tail and 4oz filet is crazy. Do the math!

[jetskier]

I figure that at wholesale that was about $10 of food on the plate which makes a $30 "special" a bit over the top. The lobster mac&cheese comes out to maybe $6 of food on the plate. That would put the direct margins at 66% which is very high.

I just looked at the O's menu and the lobster mac&cheese is actually cheaper than Canoe. We always viewed Canoe as being a bit more value oriented than O's....seems we were wrong.

Jetskier

[SAMIAM]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Lobsters and steamers are half the price of steak tips and have been for a long time. To pay $30 for a 4.5oz tail and 4oz filet is crazy. Do the math!

That really is a fair deal if you do the math.$30 for a meal that costs $10 equals a 33% food cost which is barely profitably for most restaurants.
Sure,it's cheaper to eat at home but most restaurants have at least a 35%payroll plus huge insurance costs,fees,taxes,mortgages and other overhead that allows the average restaurant to net a modest 6%to 10% on a good year.
I know it sounds like a lot of money when you compare it to supermarket prices but some times it's just worth it to have a nice night out and let someone wait on you.......and they do the dishes.

[Shreddy]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

That really is a fair deal if you do the math.$30 for a meal that costs $10 equals a 33% food cost which is barely profitably for most restaurants.
Sure,it's cheaper to eat at home but most restaurants have at least a 35%payroll plus huge insurance costs,fees,taxes,mortgages and other overhead that allows the average restaurant to net a modest 6%to 10% on a good year.
I know it sounds like a lot of money when you compare it to supermarket prices but some times it's just worth it to have a nice night out and let someone wait on you.......and they do the dishes.

Couldn't agree more...

[fred]

Canoe thinks their meals are. Always perfect
Very arrogant moperstion

[VitaBene]

I don't believe there is a perfect restaurant. however, Canoe is consistently good. Like any place, they can have a bad night- people call in sick, shortstaffed, etc.

[MaidenCove07]

Originally Posted by jetskier

Hi all,

We stopped in for an early dinner at Canoe over the weekend. Since it was bike weekend, this seemed like a good choice to avoid the crowds.

The service was quite good; what surprised us was the entrees. Canoe has been a staple in the area for lobster mac&cheese. When the dish arrived it had only a few tiny pieces of lobster. In addition they were running a surf and turf special and the steak was about 3 oz with the smallest lobster tail I have ever seen ($30). We spent $100 for a meal that was less than filling. I sent an email to Canoe and they never responded, so I feel pretty guilt-free posting. I don't know whether this is now their trend or we caught the cook on a particularly miserly evening.

Jetskier

Sorry friend, but if you've been on the lake for any amount of time, and I know you have, then you must know you can NEVER get judgemental about service, food or prices during the stupidly long season called Bike Week.
LOTS of extra, ill prepared help, increased prices to make up for the mass quantity of people who will walk out on their tab(ask any restauranteur and they'll tell you they lose at least 15% of their tabs to walk outs or people who short pay their tabs), and poor availability of fresh and even frozen food deliveries because of traffic make that the worst time to offer critiques.
It's just not realistic to expect the usual service or food quality during that time of year....

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by MaidenCove07

Sorry friend, but if you've been on the lake for any amount of time, and I know you have, then you must know you can NEVER get judgemental about service, food or prices during the stupidly long season called Bike Week.
LOTS of extra, ill prepared help, increased prices to make up for the mass quantity of people who will walk out on their tab(ask any restauranteur and they'll tell you they lose at least 15% of their tabs to walk outs or people who short pay their tabs), and poor availability of fresh and even frozen food deliveries because of traffic make that the worst time to offer critiques.
It's just not realistic to expect the usual service or food quality during that time of year....

As a motorcycle rider, I disagree that bike week is stupidly long (it's called bike week for a reason)

I will poll those restaurants that I regularly visit and get a number on the walkouts- I think 15% sounds awfully high.

[Just Sold]

Restaurants do have bad days. We went to the Canoe a few years ago and were not impressed with the meal. It was only average. We were displeased that the plates were old and had small chips in them. Service was also slow and it was not that busy either. Not a good way to present food or impress a customer. My wife was not imperessed way more than me and it is easy to please her with a delicious meal. So we have not been back since.

Another popular place is the Lyon's Den. We loved it there but on 2 separate occasions we brought family members there for lunch and both times the food our guests ordered was cold. We had really boasted to our family about how good Lyon's Den was too. We stopped going there after that.

Yesterday we ate at Shibey's at the Pier in Alton and as usual everything was great. We have never had an issue with food or service there.

So problems can happen anywhere and we have stayed away from the Lyon's Den a while but are planning to return for dinner soon. We feel they deserve another chance. The Canoe just did not do it for us and we have no plans to try them again.

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by Just Sold

Restaurants do have bad days. We went to the Canoe a few years ago and were not impressed with the meal. It was only average. We were displeased that the plates were old and had small chips in them. Service was also slow and it was not that busy either. Not a good way to present food or impress a customer. My wife was not imperessed way more than me and it is easy to please her with a delicious meal. So we have not been back since.

Another popular place is the Lyon's Den. We loved it there but on 2 separate occasions we brought family members there for lunch and both times the food our guests ordered was cold. We had really boasted to our family about how good Lyon's Den was too. We stopped going there after that.

Yesterday we ate at Shibey's at the Pier in Alton and as usual everything was great. We have never had an issue with food or service there.

So problems can happen anywhere and we have stayed away from the Lyon's Den a while but are planning to return for dinner soon. We feel they deserve another chance. The Canoe just did not do it for us and we have no plans to try them again.

There are very few places (at the lake) that I would consider "experience" dining. I think that Lemon grass is one of the few. As such, I look much more at whether the food is a reasonable value and the dining experience overall is pleasant. Clearly, there is a wide value range as McDonalds and Canoe are spectral opposites. That being said, T Bones and Canoe are not hugely different in my opinion. The value proposition of Canoe appears to have diminished and we are enjoying dining elsewhere as of late. I have found T-Bones to be consistent and reasonable for what you get. They have a steak & lobster special that is double the food for $7 more than Canoe. So, that trumps in my book.

Consistency is quite important...when a restaurant falls short it is quite easy to find a replacement. As they say, "you are only as good as your last meal."

On another note, we saw that the variety store at Mosquito bridge will deliver to the sandbar (noticed as we drove by). How cool is that?

Jetskier

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by jetskier

There are very few places (at the lake) that I would consider "experience" dining. I think that Lemon grass is one of the few. As such, I look much more at whether the food is a reasonable value and the dining experience overall is pleasant. Clearly, there is a wide value range as McDonalds and Canoe are spectral opposites. That being said, T Bones and Canoe are not hugely different in my opinion. The value proposition of Canoe appears to have diminished and we are enjoying dining elsewhere as of late. I have found T-Bones to be consistent and reasonable for what you get. They have a steak & lobster special that is double the food for $7 more than Canoe. So, that trumps in my book.

Consistency is quite important...when a restaurant falls short it is quite easy to find a replacement. As they say, "you are only as good as your last meal."

On another note, we saw that the variety store at Mosquito bridge will deliver to the sandbar (noticed as we drove by). How cool is that?

Jetskier

I would say another great group dining experience place is Tavern 27

[smokinupthelake]

Ingredients
Kosher salt
Vegetable oil
1 pound cavatappi or elbow macaroni
1 quart milk
8 tablespoons (1 stick) unsalted butter, divided
1/2 cup all-purpose flour
12 ounces Gruyere cheese, grated (4 cups)
8 ounces extra-sharp Cheddar, grated (2 cups)
1/2 teaspoon freshly ground black pepper
1/2 teaspoon nutmeg
1 1/2 pounds cooked lobster meat
1 1/2 cups fresh white bread crumbs (5 slices, crusts removed)

serves 6-8 so just about there 24 oz divided by 7 = 3.5 oz lobster

Read more at: http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/i...ml?oc=linkback

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by smokinupthelake

Ingredients
Kosher salt
Vegetable oil
1 pound cavatappi or elbow macaroni
1 quart milk
8 tablespoons (1 stick) unsalted butter, divided
1/2 cup all-purpose flour
12 ounces Gruyere cheese, grated (4 cups)
8 ounces extra-sharp Cheddar, grated (2 cups)
1/2 teaspoon freshly ground black pepper
1/2 teaspoon nutmeg
1 1/2 pounds cooked lobster meat
1 1/2 cups fresh white bread crumbs (5 slices, crusts removed)

serves 6-8 so just about there 24 oz divided by 7 = 3.5 oz lobster

Read more at: http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/i...ml?oc=linkback

OK...I'll bite on that one. Let's look at the math:

The dock price of lobster is about $3.50/pound and lets consider the yield to be about 25% (conservative). We will estimate that there is about $4.00 of lobster in the dish with wholesale markup.

The pasta is about $1.00/lb so the contribution is .14
The milk is about $1.50/qt so the contribution is .21
The cheese is approximately $4.00 (16 oz) so the contribution is .57

Let's say everything else is another .50 (reasonable). Then the total cost of ingredients is $5.42.

Since Canoe prices this dish at $22, the direct margin is 75%

At a 66% direct margin, there is room for about 50% more lobster or a price of about $16 for the dish.

Clearly, Canoe has the right to price their food any way they like. No one is forcing me to eat there...I just think that their pricing is not reflective of the current market conditions. Just my opinion

Jetskier

[ITD]

Originally Posted by jetskier

OK...I'll bite on that one. Let's look at the math:

The dock price of lobster is about $3.50/pound and lets consider the yield to be about 25% (conservative). We will estimate that there is about $4.00 of lobster in the dish with wholesale markup.

The pasta is about $1.00/lb so the contribution is .14
The milk is about $1.50/qt so the contribution is .21
The cheese is approximately $4.00 (16 oz) so the contribution is .57

Let's say everything else is another .50 (reasonable). Then the total cost of ingredients is $5.42.

Since Canoe prices this dish at $22, the direct margin is 75%

At a 66% direct margin, there is room for about 50% more lobster or a price of about $16 for the dish.

Clearly, Canoe has the right to price their food any way they like. No one is forcing me to eat there...I just think that their pricing is not reflective of the current market conditions. Just my opinion

Jetskier

You forgot overhead costs and labor costs, people don't work for free, electricity, water, maintenance, insurance, so on and so on, if you base your prices soley on raw materials cost you will be bankrupt very quickly.....

[baygo]

Originally Posted by jetskier

OK...I'll bite on that one. Let's look at the math:

The dock price of lobster is about $3.50/pound and lets consider the yield to be about 25% (conservative). We will estimate that there is about $4.00 of lobster in the dish with wholesale markup.

The pasta is about $1.00/lb so the contribution is .14
The milk is about $1.50/qt so the contribution is .21
The cheese is approximately $4.00 (16 oz) so the contribution is .57

Let's say everything else is another .50 (reasonable). Then the total cost of ingredients is $5.42.

Since Canoe prices this dish at $22, the direct margin is 75%

At a 66% direct margin, there is room for about 50% more lobster or a price of about $16 for the dish.

Clearly, Canoe has the right to price their food any way they like. No one is forcing me to eat there...I just think that their pricing is not reflective of the current market conditions. Just my opinion

Jetskier

Please tell me where you are shopping and guarantee me the quality that I assume CanoeI insists upon.

I'm paying $21 per pound for knuckle and Claw Lobster. $12 Per Pound for a high quality Grafton County cheddar cheese. $10 per pound for Gruyere cheese.

Chain restaurants are often content to use GMO product and can buy for less.

The rest of your numbers are close enough for government work. Of course government does not have to turn a profit.

[baygo]

Originally Posted by MaidenCove07

Sorry friend, but if you've been on the lake for any amount of time, and I know you have, then you must know you can NEVER get judgemental about service, food or prices during the stupidly long season called Bike Week.
LOTS of extra, ill prepared help, increased prices to make up for the mass quantity of people who will walk out on their tab(ask any restauranteur and they'll tell you they lose at least 15% of their tabs to walk outs or people who short pay their tabs), and poor availability of fresh and even frozen food deliveries because of traffic make that the worst time to offer critiques.
It's just not realistic to expect the usual service or food quality during that time of year....

I have now served 4 bike weeks (my how time flies) not a single short or walkout.

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by baygo

Please tell me where you are shopping and guarantee me the quality that I assume CanoeI insists upon.

I'm paying $21 per pound for knuckle and Claw Lobster. $12 Per Pound for a high quality Grafton County cheddar cheese. $10 per pound for Gruyere cheese.

Chain restaurants are often content to use GMO product and can buy for less.

The rest of your numbers are close enough for government work. Of course government does not have to turn a profit.

Here are the wholesale NEFSC prices for lobster for the spot this week:

http://nefsc.noaa.gov/read/socialsci...er/lobster.txt

I seriously doubt that Canoe is paying the prices that you are (for cheese or lobster)...I am not surprised that Tavern 57 does, but you are playing in the high end market for the area. If Canoe wants to tell us what they pay...great. Otherwise we are all speculating and I think that they are high especially when T-Bones can offer 2x for $7 more. I have not found a definitive quality difference between the two restaurants and the dining experience is comparable.

Just my 2 cents

Jetskier

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by ITD

You forgot overhead costs and labor costs, people don't work for free, electricity, water, maintenance, insurance, so on and so on, if you base your prices soley on raw materials cost you will be bankrupt very quickly.....

Direct margin is the price - cost of goods sold. Profit is defined by direct margin - indirect costs (staffing, rent etc...). What you are describing comes out of the direct margin. I described this correctly.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by jetskier

Direct margin is the price - cost of goods sold. Profit is defined by direct margin - indirect costs (staffing, rent etc...). What you are describing comes out of the direct margin. I described this correctly.

You described cost of goods sold in a way that will bankrupt a business owner. Labor is a part, usually a large part of cost of goods sold. Your model assumes that you take the ingredients at cost and not account for the labor to make the final product. That labor, which at a minimum for what we are talking about here includes, preparation, cooking, plating and serving. You then talk about a margin based on an incomplete cost. You can't just forget about direct labor and call it overhead. No wonder you think it is too expensive.

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by ITD

You described cost of goods sold in a way that will bankrupt a business owner. Labor is a part, usually a large part of cost of goods sold. Your model assumes that you take the ingredients at cost and not account for the labor to make the final product. That labor, which at a minimum for what we are talking about here includes, preparation, cooking, plating and serving. You then talk about a margin based on an incomplete cost. You can't just forget about direct labor and call it overhead. No wonder you think it is too expensive.

If you believe that $22 is a great deal for lobster mac and cheese, by all means patronize this establishment. I believe that it is too expensive for the lakes region as was the minute lobster tail and steak that was cooked to only a few bites. That is my opinion...you are free to have a different one.

Jetskier

[ITD]

Originally Posted by jetskier

If you believe that $22 is a great deal for lobster mac and cheese, by all means patronize this establishment. I believe that it is too expensive for the lakes region as was the minute lobster tail and steak that was cooked to only a few bites. That is my opinion...you are free to have a different one.

Jetskier

Fair enough.

[wilcochef]

Jetskier it is a good thing you do not own a restaurant because you would be out of business in 4 to 5 months. Canoe is not buying whole lobsters and picking them. This is a very time consuming process that most restaurants do not do. They buy Lobster Meat for $16.00 to $25.00 depending if Tail is involved and the time of year. Picked meat does not change price with the whole lobster market. Lakes region restaurants have to pay rent, utilities, labor and other expenses year round. I have worked in restaurants where 4 people came in on a winter night but we still have to pay the bills. Please learn more about the restaurant business before you put down a local restaurant for pricing.

[Pineedles]

As described in an earlier, last year thread, lobster meat is bought and priced according to the amount of "leg" meat it contains. Knucke and claw plays a part, but it's volume of leg meat that really determines the price.

[wilcochef]

I disagree Pineneedles the Lobster meat that we buy does not include leg meat, this is fluff and is used in lower quality shacks and for things such as Lobster Pie and Casseroles

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by wilcochef

Jetskier it is a good thing you do not own a restaurant because you would be out of business in 4 to 5 months. Canoe is not buying whole lobsters and picking them. This is a very time consuming process that most restaurants do not do. They buy Lobster Meat for $16.00 to $25.00 depending if Tail is involved and the time of year. Picked meat does not change price with the whole lobster market. Lakes region restaurants have to pay rent, utilities, labor and other expenses year round. I have worked in restaurants where 4 people came in on a winter night but we still have to pay the bills. Please learn more about the restaurant business before you put down a local restaurant for pricing.

OK...then T-Bones is crazy for pricing an 8 oz lobster tail and 8 oz filet at $37. That seems to be about $14 for the tail and probably $7 for the steak. That should certainly put them out of business. Do you want to tell them or shall I?

Basically, what you are telling me is that no one should order a dish with lobster meat when the price of a lobster in the market is at the current low level. It is better to order a lobster.

As for your quip about learning the restaurant business...I don't feel that from a consumer standpoint that the pricing represents a good value. That is my opinion and I am entitled to it. If you want to go pay $22 for lobster mac and cheese or $30 for a tiny lobster tail/steak...hey, go for it! No one is stopping you.

Jetskier

[Pineedles]

Originally Posted by wilcochef

I disagree Pineneedles the Lobster meat that we buy does not include leg meat, this is fluff and is used in lower quality shacks and for things such as Lobster Pie and Casseroles

But we can agree! The "amount" of leg meat that you serve is Zero.

[Happy Gourmand]

Originally Posted by jetskier

OK...then T-Bones is crazy for pricing an 8 oz lobster tail and 8 oz filet at $37. That seems to be about $14 for the tail and probably $7 for the steak. That should certainly put them out of business. Do you want to tell them or shall I?

Basically, what you are telling me is that no one should order a dish with lobster meat when the price of a lobster in the market is at the current low level. It is better to order a lobster.

As for your quip about learning the restaurant business...I don't feel that from a consumer standpoint that the pricing represents a good value. That is my opinion and I am entitled to it. If you want to go pay $22 for lobster mac and cheese or $30 for a tiny lobster tail/steak...hey, go for it! No one is stopping you.

Jetskier

I think we all get your point, and we agree that you are entitled to your opinion.
My opinion is that if you think the price of a meal is too high and not a good value, then don't order it.

[wifi]

Can I have the last word ?

[wilcochef]

Originally Posted by jetskier

OK...then T-Bones is crazy for pricing an 8 oz lobster tail and 8 oz filet at $37. That seems to be about $14 for the tail and probably $7 for the steak. That should certainly put them out of business. Do you want to tell them or shall I?

Basically, what you are telling me is that no one should order a dish with lobster meat when the price of a lobster in the market is at the current low level. It is better to order a lobster.

As for your quip about learning the restaurant business...I don't feel that from a consumer standpoint that the pricing represents a good value. That is my opinion and I am entitled to it. If you want to go pay $22 for lobster mac and cheese or $30 for a tiny lobster tail/steak...hey, go for it! No one is stopping you.

Jetskier

You are certainly entitled to your opinion as I am mine as for my "quip" I feel I am a little more qualified than you when it comes to food cost and pricing! I am sure that there are things that you are far more qualified then me in as well. T-Bones is a local chain so they have the luxury operating as a entity where the bottom line is provided by different locations, including locations that are not as seasonal as the Lakes region.

[wilcochef]

Originally Posted by Pineedles

But we can agree! The "amount" of leg meat that you serve is Zero.

Yes I will agree with this Fluff belong with Peanut Butter not in Lobster Dishes