Wide Open saloon Weirs beach

Sunbeam lodge · 05-07-2012, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Channel Pirate

The fact that the "B" family will fight to the bloody end no matter what the impact is to the surrounding community speaks volumes about there charactor.

The area has been very good to them over the years.

I took the time to read the bankruptcy petition.
If you want to get an idea of the character of the family it makes good reading.
How can they have unfiled or unpaid FED income taxes and then verify and certify that the information is accurate and then say it is not right or forgot or made a mistake.
Take the time to read about the process and bankruptcy proceedings and you will get an inside view of the family, lawyers and system.
Great system.

Mr. V · 05-07-2012, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunbeam lodge

I took the time to read the bankruptcy petition.

As did I.

Wow.

What a piece of ... work.

At one moment he tries to come off as a distracted, clueless, disinterested victim; the next he shows great understanding of his businesses and their complicated structure, together with an astounding display of selective memory.

An arrogant dissembler who seems to be playing 3 card monte with the bankruptcy trustee.

I thought that the examiner, Geraldine Karonis, representing the U.S. Trustee, performed an effective examination of Mr. Baldi.

I am still scratching my head over his comment that he decided to go to court and legally change his name to from "Steven" to "Lawrence" when he was in the fourth grade; I was reading comics and playing baseball in fourth grade, not having existential epiphanies and lawyering up.

The examination is supposed to be continued, to be resumed upon him providing info he "forgot" to provide; please provide a link to the upcoming examination on this thread when it becomes available: this is very interesting and informative and a great way to get a read on a person's true character.

jtb9212 · 05-07-2012, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunbeam lodge

I took the time to read the bankruptcy petition.
If you want to get an idea of the character of the family it makes good reading.
How can they have unfiled or unpaid FED income taxes and then verify and certify that the information is accurate and then say it is not right or forgot or made a mistake.
Take the time to read about the process and bankruptcy proceedings and you will get an inside view of the family, lawyers and system.
Great system.

I worked for them during Bike Week a while back. What an eye opening experiance. The amount of cash that I saw change hands was incredible, stressing the word CASH.

Listening to some of the vendors who were renting asphalt from the Baldi's was pretty disturbing. One guy way paying $3000 per day for his spot. Look at the number of vendors they have around the Water Slide, Saloon, Drive In, and the alley way to the Drive In. Try to do a count of vendors and do the rough math on how much money gets pulled in by them, again, stressing the word cash.

Then read the bankruptcy document. These people are all about the cash, hiding around the rules, and working the system for all its worth. Again, what a crew of losers.

Resident 2B · 05-07-2012, 10:30 AM

I have also read the bankruptcy deposition, a public document.

UNBELIEVABLE!!

He was unsure what his legal name is or what his father's legal name is as they could be the same, no idea what he signed or when he signed it, falsified gross incomes, unfiled federal taxes, incomplete listing of trade names and he signed the document certifying that, under the pain of perjury, his statements were accurate and complete.

Holy cow! Still walking the streets???

R2B

no-engine · 05-07-2012, 11:02 AM

FYI: he has passed, about a year ago.
Wife takes over the "assets".

jtb9212 · 05-07-2012, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by no-engine

FYI: he has passed, about a year ago.
Wife takes over the "assets".

Baldi Sr. I beleive died, but Baldi Jr. still alive and screwing the system....

no-engine · 05-07-2012, 11:12 AM

As I recall, yes, in his early 70's, and father in law to Saloon's land owner, Brandi, according to media stories.
All in the family. I would assume the drive-in owner is the widow, mother in law to Brindi.
Maybe, I'll do a search for the obit.

I think I'll drive by Thurston's to go in and ask about the petition. I'll sign, if OK as a non-Laconia voter; I am taxpayer and registered in town abutting Laconia.

AC2717 · 05-07-2012, 11:28 AM

No-Engine
Please let us know, I own property in Laconia but as a non resident/voter I would love to sign it
or what they should do is start a online petetion

no-engine · 05-12-2012, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC2717

No-Engine
Please let us know, I own property in Laconia but as a non resident/voter I would love to sign it
or what they should do is start a online petetion

I had timing issues and never did find out if petition signors was required to be a Laconia voter. I reside/vote in neighboring town. I don't know where to find John Ganong.

I did call Thurston's Marina one day; lady said no Thurston was on the property, and she was not aware of details of the petition. Maybe I can stop today, Saturday 12th.

I hope making a comment, bumps this thread up.
If I were part of Busby Construction, I would never park equipment so near the building. Apparently the drive-in is open weekends, and certainly is not good public relations to movie attendees!

Mr. V · 05-12-2012, 12:44 PM

You can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?

A group of protesters picketing the property would be a unique, inexpensive and effective way of bringing this matter to a head.

jtb9212 · 05-12-2012, 02:26 PM

Maybe the best way to petition to have the Wide Open torn down would be to boycott going to the Drive In, hurt them where thier heart is, the wallet. Hate to see a business go out of business, but wouldn't mind if its a Baldi owned business. The public has the voice and the power to make them wake up, although I doubt they would get it.

no-engine · 05-12-2012, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtb9212

Maybe the best way to petition to have the Wide Open torn down would be to boycott going to the Drive In, hurt them where thier heart is, the wallet. Hate to see a business go out of business, but wouldn't mind if its a Baldi owned business. The public has the voice and the power to make them wake up, although I doubt they would get it.

Agreed! Personally, I have not gone to drive-in or theater downtown Laconia for many years. Also, I have not gone to the water slide, or recommended any.

I remember reading an inn/motel owner (not identified) on this thread posting that they plan to NOT recommend any of those businesses to their clients.

Belmont Resident · 05-13-2012, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by no-engine

Agreed! Personally, I have not gone to drive-in or theater downtown Laconia for many years. Also, I have not gone to the water slide, or recommended any.

I remember reading an inn/motel owner (not identified) on this thread posting that they plan to NOT recommend any of those businesses to their clients.

Although the drive in theater has become a run down neglected place that one would cringe to use the bathrooms at the options could be worse.
Imagine it as the sight of just another mega hotel, resort or even worse condo’s that instead of tying up traffic at night on the weekends creates more traffic and adds another eye sore to the lake.

jtb9212 · 05-13-2012, 07:35 AM

Click on the link and see what the Wide Open looked like when it was a hotel in its early days. What a beautiful majestic building. What a total shame to see it now and what is has become.

http://www.weirsbeach.com/Largejpgs/...ctanhotel.html

The Weirs was such a beautiful destination and has so much history. It is such a shame to see it where it is today. Enjoy the link to the photos. It really makes me sad to see that area in the state it is in today.

RailroadJoe · 05-13-2012, 09:24 AM

Not enough money coming in. So, out it goes.

no-engine · 05-14-2012, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtb9212

Click on the link and see what the Wide Open looked like when it was a hotel in its early days. What a beautiful majestic building. What a total shame to see it now and what is has become.

http://www.weirsbeach.com/Largejpgs/...ctanhotel.html

The Weirs was such a beautiful destination and has so much history. It is such a shame to see it where it is today. Enjoy the link to the photos. It really makes me sad to see that area in the state it is in today.

Thanks for the link.

AND we could remember the Ho-Jo's next door...
Also the victim of fire, whose origin is undetermined... In 70's or 80's?

nhyitbos · 05-14-2012, 09:03 AM

There was a great response to the petition signing. Yes, you don't have to be a resident because it is about "the community". The petition doesn't really need hundreds of names to make it's point. The city manager is all for this effort by Mr. Ganong. However, making it clear, Community encompasses those who pass by this burnt out eyesore on a daily basis. John Gagong will be presenting the petition, along with some residents, to the city council tonight at 7:30 p.m. The petition is to ENABLE the council to notify the state that "Time is of the Essence" for the residents and business owners in the Weirs. The legal problem is that the Supreme Court (there are multiple suits) has "dubbed" the suit by the city as "not detrimental to safety" and therefore has ranked its importance "low". The goal is to petition the court to "rank" it higher for a decision to allow the city to remove it. Rumor in the Weirs is that by June 15th there should be a decision. Unacceptable. That's the end of bike week and the beginning of tourism. Say what you will of the business owners and residents but they have been very quiet on this subject to allow the city, state and the owners (both title and lienholders) to work their way through the recovery of funds process. However, after almost two years this legal chess game is becoming too taxing upon the hotel/motels and cottages and affecting their livelyhoods of business income. The Lobster Pound has the most to loose from what I witness yesterday at brunch. The building is prominent from their dining room windows and it was the topic of discussion of some viewing patrons. Not sure they lived here so they didn't have the background of why it's still there. It is a known stat that the Weirs is over 35% of the city's income no matter how it is achieved. Bike week is a financial boom doggle for the businesses in Laconia also. The businesses that benefit the most are some that you wouldn't expect...Laconia Savings, TD Bank, Citizens, and Meredith Savings gives away thousands of dollars how? Collection of ATM fee's during bike week. Lowes, Ace Hardware, Trustworthy revenues rises from vendors needing construction supplies. Shaw's, Hannafords, Vista and Walmart for simple quick needs (coolers/prescriptions forgotten etc). Telephone company for vendor hook-ups, Amerigas and Rymes for hundreds of propane tanks and yes the City of Laconia stopped playing "fuzzy" math 9 years ago. In addition, many don't realize that the Weirs PO has extended hours during bike week (or used to) for tourists shipping leather home that they can't carry on their bike. Yes, time is of the essence to remove this building, tourism (not just bike week) season has arrived. I agree with one previous writer that I would rather be charged to the demolishing of this building for $400k (that's the estitmate) than $2.1M for the old prison or 1.5M for the Baldi's other property, the Colonial Theatre. The city likes to spend money except where they achieve the most money, the Weirs.

just saying.

pelican · 05-14-2012, 09:26 AM

I agree with one previous writer that I would rather be charged to the demolishing of this building for $400k (that's the estitmate) than $2.1M for the old prison or 1.5M for the Baldi's other property, the Colonial Theatre. The city likes to spend money except where they achieve the most money, the Weirs.

But, without a valid court order to demolish the building we're all at a standstill. If the city were to bulldoze this property without the court's consent there's a good chance they'd have to pony up the funds to rebuild for the Baldis. So, $400k for the demo and then another million or more in damages - whoo wee. Do you really want the property re-built @ the city's expense?
And I respectfully disagree - ALL the properties in the Weirs are being hurt by this eyesore, not just the Lobster Pound.
And if my memory isn't completely shot - I don't think the city was ever going to buy the Baldi's downtown theatre.
And if I had the financial means, I'd love to buy the old prison property for $2.1 million - that's a steal - about $8,000 per acre. Beautiful views, prime farmland, great investment potential. Sell off the parts that aren't a hazard and use the funds to clean up the parts that are and you're left with a really nice piece of property.

nhyitbos · 05-14-2012, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelican

I agree with one previous writer that I would rather be charged to the demolishing of this building for $400k (that's the estitmate) than $2.1M for the old prison or 1.5M for the Baldi's other property, the Colonial Theatre. The city likes to spend money except where they achieve the most money, the Weirs.

But, without a valid court order to demolish the building we're all at a standstill. If the city were to bulldoze this property without the court's consent there's a good chance they'd have to pony up the funds to rebuild for the Baldis. So, $400k for the demo and then another million or more in damages - whoo wee. Do you really want the property re-built @ the city's expense?
And I respectfully disagree - ALL the properties in the Weirs are being hurt by this eyesore, not just the Lobster Pound.
And if my memory isn't completely shot - I don't think the city was ever going to buy the Baldi's downtown theatre.
And if I had the financial means, I'd love to buy the old prison property for $2.1 million - that's a steal - about $8,000 per acre. Beautiful views, prime farmland, great investment potential. Sell off the parts that aren't a hazard and use the funds to clean up the parts that are and you're left with a really nice piece of property.

The purpose of the petition is to expedite the court TO take down the building.. did you read the post? I never said that we should unilaterally demolish it. It's at a "standstill" because we haven't made an issue at the slowness of the courts. The courts ranking of the suit is the issue. Of course, a $1 turns to a million in value when seized. Second, the prison property for 2.1M would be off the tax rolls, therefore it would generate no property taxes. True, if you bought it then be on the tax rolls, so I hope an individual does purchase it and is able to sell it off in pieces. When has the city ever obtained a piece of property and sold it off in "pieces"? Excuse me, they have..the business park off of 106. However, has the initial investment of $400 ever been re-couped to date? No.

jtb9212 · 05-14-2012, 04:34 PM

Maybe the city should do the demo, pay the bill, put a lean on the property. They would end up with the property because the Baldi's would never pay the restitution on it. In turn to compensate the city back they should say thank you and take the Colonial Property as the compensation instead of paying the $800K for it.

nhyitbos · 05-14-2012, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtb9212

Maybe the city should do the demo, pay the bill, put a lean on the property. They would end up with the property because the Baldi's would never pay the restitution on it. In turn to compensate the city back they should say thank you and take the Colonial Property as the compensation instead of paying the $800K for it.

Now that's a plan...you know, it's the lienholder A.E. Mitchell that will have to figure out if he's going to continue with the Baldi's AND if they do want to rebuild eventually....they will have to negotiate the grandfather's clause to rebuild on the same footprint and for the same purpose. I don't think you and I will hold our breath for that one on both parts!

We are in agreement that this whole situation is unfortunate for the Weirs and we indeed are being held "hostage" until the matter is settled. The good news is the community is agreement...take it down. There's no evidence left and the fire dept would love the practice! Thanks for your input..it is valuable. Tonight, council meeting 7:30...you know you're invited to attend.

no-engine · 05-14-2012, 04:47 PM

Sometimes City Council proceedings are broadcast live on cable.
Might anyone know if it will? But sometimes it's recorded and broadcast later.

BroadHopper · 05-14-2012, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belmont Resident

Although the drive in theater has become a run down neglected place that one would cringe to use the bathrooms at the options could be worse.
Imagine it as the sight of just another mega hotel, resort or even worse condo’s that instead of tying up traffic at night on the weekends creates more traffic and adds another eye sore to the lake.

I can envision when state legislature OK casinos and Bruton Smith go ahead with his plan on a maga casino complex across from the speedway.

I'm willing to bet Canterbury will fight tooth and nail against the proposal. I would suggest Bruton buy out the Weirs and turn it into a mega casino complex. It is the only way we can really change the eye sore.

Belmont Resident · 05-14-2012, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

I can envision when state legislature OK casinos and Bruton Smith go ahead with his plan on a maga casino complex across from the speedway.

I'm willing to bet Canterbury will fight tooth and nail against the proposal. I would suggest Bruton buy out the Weirs and turn it into a mega casino complex. It is the only way we can really change the eye sore.

Everyone is talking about what an eye sore that one building is, but the truth is the whole Weirs is an eye sore. So, the run down drive in and burned out building fit right in.
The burned out building catches my eye less then the big ugly open parking area that gets used once a year for bike week, the clear cut area just up the hill and the boulevard itself is pretty run down.

Hey if they put a casino in it’s just another example of direction the area is going. And why it’s great for the visitors but once they move here and realize what it’s really like 7 days a week they become frustrated as well.

Woodsy · 05-14-2012, 01:29 PM

Personally.... I think the whole thing STINKS!

The Baldi's dont want it torn down but yet they dont take the initiative to rebuild it?? WHY? If it is truly a salvagable building, then rebuild it!

Its been well documented that the insurance co, Lloyd of London is refusing to pay. So we know there is a lawsuit looming there. We also know that there is a third party that has been granted interest in the lawsuit vs the city. Whats thier deal? hmmmm..

Once that building is torn down, the chances of collecting from Lloyd's goes from slim to ZERO... thats what this is all about.

I think the ownership/leasing/insurance of this property is all one big shell game....

Woodsy

05-07-2012, 11:28 AM	#8
AC2717 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Maynard, MA & Paugus Bay Posts: 2,522 Thanks: 747 Thanked 344 Times in 257 Posts	No-Engine Please let us know, I own property in Laconia but as a non resident/voter I would love to sign it or what they should do is start a online petetion __________________ Capt. of the "No Worries"

05-12-2012, 02:26 PM	#11
jtb9212 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 56 Thanks: 0 Thanked 48 Times in 21 Posts	Drive in Maybe the best way to petition to have the Wide Open torn down would be to boycott going to the Drive In, hurt them where thier heart is, the wallet. Hate to see a business go out of business, but wouldn't mind if its a Baldi owned business. The public has the voice and the power to make them wake up, although I doubt they would get it.

05-13-2012, 07:35 AM	#14
jtb9212 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 56 Thanks: 0 Thanked 48 Times in 21 Posts	The Weirs in its older glory! Click on the link and see what the Wide Open looked like when it was a hotel in its early days. What a beautiful majestic building. What a total shame to see it now and what is has become. http://www.weirsbeach.com/Largejpgs/...ctanhotel.html The Weirs was such a beautiful destination and has so much history. It is such a shame to see it where it is today. Enjoy the link to the photos. It really makes me sad to see that area in the state it is in today. Attached Images

05-14-2012, 09:03 AM	#17
nhyitbos Junior Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 18 Thanks: 9 Thanked 12 Times in 4 Posts	Wide Open Saloon Petition to City Council tonight @7:30p.m. Live on local tv. There was a great response to the petition signing. Yes, you don't have to be a resident because it is about "the community". The petition doesn't really need hundreds of names to make it's point. The city manager is all for this effort by Mr. Ganong. However, making it clear, Community encompasses those who pass by this burnt out eyesore on a daily basis. John Gagong will be presenting the petition, along with some residents, to the city council tonight at 7:30 p.m. The petition is to ENABLE the council to notify the state that "Time is of the Essence" for the residents and business owners in the Weirs. The legal problem is that the Supreme Court (there are multiple suits) has "dubbed" the suit by the city as "not detrimental to safety" and therefore has ranked its importance "low". The goal is to petition the court to "rank" it higher for a decision to allow the city to remove it. Rumor in the Weirs is that by June 15th there should be a decision. Unacceptable. That's the end of bike week and the beginning of tourism. Say what you will of the business owners and residents but they have been very quiet on this subject to allow the city, state and the owners (both title and lienholders) to work their way through the recovery of funds process. However, after almost two years this legal chess game is becoming too taxing upon the hotel/motels and cottages and affecting their livelyhoods of business income. The Lobster Pound has the most to loose from what I witness yesterday at brunch. The building is prominent from their dining room windows and it was the topic of discussion of some viewing patrons. Not sure they lived here so they didn't have the background of why it's still there. It is a known stat that the Weirs is over 35% of the city's income no matter how it is achieved. Bike week is a financial boom doggle for the businesses in Laconia also. The businesses that benefit the most are some that you wouldn't expect...Laconia Savings, TD Bank, Citizens, and Meredith Savings gives away thousands of dollars how? Collection of ATM fee's during bike week. Lowes, Ace Hardware, Trustworthy revenues rises from vendors needing construction supplies. Shaw's, Hannafords, Vista and Walmart for simple quick needs (coolers/prescriptions forgotten etc). Telephone company for vendor hook-ups, Amerigas and Rymes for hundreds of propane tanks and yes the City of Laconia stopped playing "fuzzy" math 9 years ago. In addition, many don't realize that the Weirs PO has extended hours during bike week (or used to) for tourists shipping leather home that they can't carry on their bike. Yes, time is of the essence to remove this building, tourism (not just bike week) season has arrived. I agree with one previous writer that I would rather be charged to the demolishing of this building for $400k (that's the estitmate) than $2.1M for the old prison or 1.5M for the Baldi's other property, the Colonial Theatre. The city likes to spend money except where they achieve the most money, the Weirs. just saying.

05-14-2012, 04:34 PM	#20
jtb9212 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 56 Thanks: 0 Thanked 48 Times in 21 Posts	Wide Open Maybe the city should do the demo, pay the bill, put a lean on the property. They would end up with the property because the Baldi's would never pay the restitution on it. In turn to compensate the city back they should say thank you and take the Colonial Property as the compensation instead of paying the $800K for it.

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05-07-2012, 10:30 AM	#4
Resident 2B Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North Shore, MA Posts: 1,352 Thanks: 987 Thanked 310 Times in 161 Posts	I have also read the bankruptcy deposition, a public document. UNBELIEVABLE!! He was unsure what his legal name is or what his father's legal name is as they could be the same, no idea what he signed or when he signed it, falsified gross incomes, unfiled federal taxes, incomplete listing of trade names and he signed the document certifying that, under the pain of perjury, his statements were accurate and complete. Holy cow! Still walking the streets??? R2B

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05-07-2012, 11:02 AM	#5
no-engine Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: West side Winnipesaukee, Lakes Region Posts: 516 Thanks: 20 Thanked 52 Times in 40 Posts	FYI: he has passed, about a year ago. Wife takes over the "assets".

05-07-2012, 11:12 AM	#7
no-engine Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: West side Winnipesaukee, Lakes Region Posts: 516 Thanks: 20 Thanked 52 Times in 40 Posts	As I recall, yes, in his early 70's, and father in law to Saloon's land owner, Brandi, according to media stories. All in the family. I would assume the drive-in owner is the widow, mother in law to Brindi. Maybe, I'll do a search for the obit. I think I'll drive by Thurston's to go in and ask about the petition. I'll sign, if OK as a non-Laconia voter; I am taxpayer and registered in town abutting Laconia.

05-12-2012, 12:44 PM	#10
Mr. V Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: the left coast (Portland)and West Alton Posts: 1,331 Thanks: 61 Thanked 235 Times in 159 Posts	You can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk? A group of protesters picketing the property would be a unique, inexpensive and effective way of bringing this matter to a head.

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05-13-2012, 09:24 AM	#15
RailroadJoe Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 620 Thanks: 259 Thanked 158 Times in 100 Posts	Not enough money coming in. So, out it goes.

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05-14-2012, 09:26 AM	#18
pelican Junior Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I agree with one previous writer that I would rather be charged to the demolishing of this building for $400k (that's the estitmate) than $2.1M for the old prison or 1.5M for the Baldi's other property, the Colonial Theatre. The city likes to spend money except where they achieve the most money, the Weirs. But, without a valid court order to demolish the building we're all at a standstill. If the city were to bulldoze this property without the court's consent there's a good chance they'd have to pony up the funds to rebuild for the Baldis. So, $400k for the demo and then another million or more in damages - whoo wee. Do you really want the property re-built @ the city's expense? And I respectfully disagree - ALL the properties in the Weirs are being hurt by this eyesore, not just the Lobster Pound. And if my memory isn't completely shot - I don't think the city was ever going to buy the Baldi's downtown theatre. And if I had the financial means, I'd love to buy the old prison property for $2.1 million - that's a steal - about $8,000 per acre. Beautiful views, prime farmland, great investment potential. Sell off the parts that aren't a hazard and use the funds to clean up the parts that are and you're left with a really nice piece of property.

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05-14-2012, 04:47 PM	#22
no-engine Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: West side Winnipesaukee, Lakes Region Posts: 516 Thanks: 20 Thanked 52 Times in 40 Posts	Sometimes City Council proceedings are broadcast live on cable. Might anyone know if it will? But sometimes it's recorded and broadcast later.

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05-14-2012, 01:29 PM	#25
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,950 Thanks: 80 Thanked 971 Times in 433 Posts	Personally.... I think the whole thing STINKS! The Baldi's dont want it torn down but yet they dont take the initiative to rebuild it?? WHY? If it is truly a salvagable building, then rebuild it! Its been well documented that the insurance co, Lloyd of London is refusing to pay. So we know there is a lawsuit looming there. We also know that there is a third party that has been granted interest in the lawsuit vs the city. Whats thier deal? hmmmm.. Once that building is torn down, the chances of collecting from Lloyd's goes from slim to ZERO... thats what this is all about. I think the ownership/leasing/insurance of this property is all one big shell game.... Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.