West Alton Sandbar - Marine Patrol Trouble

Alton Bay Resident · 07-08-2006, 07:00 PM

Anyone at West Alton Sandbar today (Sat. 7-8-06)? Heard the Marine Patrol gave out many citations for boats being too close to shore and not 50' between boats.... One of my friends who was there got a ticket for $43. Marine Patrol indicated they were following through on a petition from West Alton Marina???

I have been at this sandbar many times and is one of the few where small children can enjoy the water... My 'bitch' is the Marine Patrol is not consistent in their enforcement...

Another problem is if you show up early and another boat comes and parks too close to you are you going to tell them to move further from you? NOT....

Any 'inside' comments on this??

SBC · 07-08-2006, 08:05 PM

Is this the area to which your refer?

from Saf-C 407.03: ...Small's Cove in Alton, southwest of an imaginary line running southeast-northwest from light 75 on the northwestern end to the northernmost point of land marking the entrance to the first cove, south of Small's Cove on the south;

If so, then it is subject to rafting restrictions as follows:

PART Saf-C 407 RAFTING RULES

(a) In addition to and in conjunction with the requirements of RSA 270:44, no person, except as otherwise provided herein, shall, in a prohibited location or at a prohibited time:

(1) Form or allow a boat which he or she is operating or in charge of to be a member of a raft consisting of 3 or more boats;

(2) Form or allow the boat which he or she is operating or in charge of to be a member of a raft if any part of such raft is:

a. Less than 150 feet from shore; or

b. Less than 50 feet from any other raft; or

c. Less than 50 feet from any occupied single boat which is stationary upon the waters of the same lake or pond; and

(3) Anchor a single boat and cause it to remain stationary upon the waters of a lake or pond other than momentarily if any part of such boat is:

a. Less than 150 feet from shore; or

b. Less than 50 feet away from any raft; or

c. Less than 25 feet away from any other single boat which is stationary upon the waters of such lake or pond.

You may also want to refer to: http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/...270/270-44.htm

Seems like the natives have complained and the MPs have responded. That's what we pay them to do. I am curious though; how can any law enforcement effort be consistant, water or land side, if they can't be in all places at all times?

Paugus Bay Resident · 07-08-2006, 08:36 PM

We were there (anchored pretty far up). There were 5 MP boats (3 at the beginning of the channel) and 2 inside the sand bar. From what I was told, the 3 at the entrance were checking boats for boater certificates. The other 2 were moving everyone 150 feet from shore. A couple of people told me that they got $75 tickets. We were there from 10 - 7pm and they didn't bother us.

It really wasn't that crowded. They didn't seem too concerned with the 25 / 50 foot separation, only the 150 from shore.

Mashugana · 07-08-2006, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SBC

PART Saf-C 407 RAFTING RULES ...
(3) Anchor a single boat and cause it to remain stationary upon the waters of a lake or pond other than momentarily if any part of such boat is:

a. Less than 150 feet from shore; or

b. Less than 50 feet away from any raft; or

c. Less than 25 feet away from any other single boat which is stationary upon the waters of such lake or pond.

"...Any part of such boat..." does that include the anchor itself? The anchor is part of the boat isn't it?

And anchoring 150 foot from shore applies only in certain no raft zones, right?

It can be hard to follow all the rules if you can not understand them.

Thanks in advance.

jrc · 07-08-2006, 11:45 PM

I was anchored there during this as well. The MP gathered outside the sandbar for at least 20 minuted before they came in. I was well away from shore and at the start, the closest boat to me was about 40-50 feet, so I wasn't worried. Actually the place was pretty quiet, no loud music, no obvious drunks, just a bunch of kids swimming.

First they went to the extreme back of the area, down near where the channel leads to the marina. There were three or more good size crusiers close to each other and close to shore. I was too far to see the exact number and if they were actually touching. I also couldn't see if they were ticketed. One of these boats came out with a steaming captain. He yelled to a few boats along the way. Saying everyone was going to get tickets. One boat simply crossed the channel and anchored on the other side. (which is not a no rafting zone) The steaming captain stopped and talked with a MP boat in deep water. I'm not sure who initiated that conversation.

After that corner was cleared out. The MP started working their way along the swim lines. I guess they were enforcing the 150' from shore rule. Most of the boats moved up a few feet sometimes more. It sure looked like a few tickets were handed out but it wasn't obvious why some got them and some didn't.

They didn't seem interested in boats being too close together. Not far from me were two boats tied together and a third only a few feet away.

By now all the displaced boats were moving to new spots. So it was getting tight. Once a pontoon boat decide to anchor between my boat and my anchor, I decided it was time to leave.

jrc · 07-09-2006, 10:04 AM

The rafting rules seem to change every few years. I remember a rule about distance from swim lines, but I can't find it online anymore, did it change?

NH has both laws and administrative rules. I'm not a lawyer so this may all be wrong. But I thought that the rules had to based in a law. I can't find where the 150' from shore rules (Saf-C 407.a.2.a and Saf-C 407.a.3.a) come from. There is no mention of distance from shore in any of the rafting laws or definitions of rafting (RSA 270:42, RSA 270:43, RSA 270:44, RSA 270:45, or RSA 270:46)

How can a rule be made to restrict rafting that prohibits an activity that clearly isn't rafting. Maybe some legal eagle will get a rafting ticket someday and fight this.

Airwaves · 07-09-2006, 10:53 AM

Paugus Bay Resident wrote:

Quote:

There were 5 MP boats (3 at the beginning of the channel) and 2 inside the sand bar. From what I was told, the 3 at the entrance were checking boats for boater certificates.

Were they checking boats that were anchored or coming out of the cove? I thought the boating certificate law was a secondary law, meaning they have to "pull you over" for another violation and can't just "stop" boats to check for certificates.

jrc · 07-09-2006, 11:07 AM

In among the boats, I saw one of the big gray inflatables, and a small un-marked maroon aluminum boat. Floating outside the sandbar were three of their white fiberglass boats. They were pulling people over, I could not tell the reason. They didn't pull everyone over and they may have had a focus on PWCs, but my focus wasn't really on them.

Airwaves, they can always find a reason to pull you over.

CEP · 07-09-2006, 11:24 AM

If West Alton Marina has placed a petition maybe someone from West Alton Marina could come on and explain to the Forum Members, What's Up??
Also if I was a user of the sandbar in question, I would take my business to a place other than West Alton Marina!
I'm sure things would have been different if West Alton Marina would have let their feeling be know before contacting the MP's.
Makes for a better customer relationship!

CEP

Airwaves · 07-09-2006, 11:35 AM

Sure they can always find a reason, but it has to be legit, otherwise sooner or later they'll pull over the wrong boat and the state will get caught up in serious litigation.

As I understand it, the intent of the law was to NOT give MP the authority to pull folks over to check for boating certificates, but if the boater is stopped for a violation of rules then MP should check for the certificate.

Seems to me it was a safeguard included by lawmakers to prevent random checks.

Now if they were checking boats at anchor that may have been violating a no rafting rule, that's fine. To pull over a boat that is underway and check for the certificate goes beyond the scope of the law as I understand it.

I'd be interested to see, of the boats pulled over that were underway, were any tickets handed out for violations other than lack of boating certificates?

Lakegeezer · 07-09-2006, 03:23 PM

This incident and others beg for a transparent MP organization. It would be nice to know what is being enforced and where. I assume the records are public. Why doesn't any newspaper print the log?

APIMIS · 07-09-2006, 09:52 PM

I believe I am the steaming Captain as you say; although I was not steaming I was just answering a question from a friend that happened to be anchored at the sandbar. As for the going out to talk to the MP’s I was sent out there to receive my ticket for being anchored in a no rafting either under the 150 foot mark or being to close to other boats. I’m still not sure which? The MP that gave me my ticket was not clear as to which one I was being cited for. The MP that sent me out told me that everyone to the right of me was being ticketed. The MP Officers were not consistent with their info when asked questions or ticketing process. The one point that was consistent was that it was the property owners that were complaining. My concern is that with all the homes being built on the shore lines can they just arbitrarily designate no rafting zones as they call it whenever homeowners chose not to share public waters with the boating public which would further restrict anchoring and swimming areas for families. With the price of gas and not having a legal place to anchor where the children can swim safely it won’t be worth having a boat on the lake.

jrc · 07-09-2006, 10:15 PM

I'm sorry if I misinterpreted and mis-reported your demeanor as "steaming". I thought you were just angry about the ticket.

I agree with all your remarks about the arbitrary nature of no rafting zones.

I'm not sure who owns that beach, there doesn't seem to be a house associated with it. What other property is bothered by the boats rafting there?

tbutler · 07-09-2006, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by APIMIS

My concern is that with all the homes being built on the shore lines can they just arbitrarily designate no rafting zones as they call it whenever homeowners chose not to share public waters with the boating public which would further restrict anchoring and swimming areas for families.

The area on the northwest side of the channel into Small Cove has been
designated no-rafting for many years. So the enforcement action may
have been instigated by a landowner's complaint, but the NR designation
has been there a long time.

Airwaves · 07-10-2006, 12:11 AM

APIMIS:

Quote:

As for the going out to talk to the MP’s I was sent out there to receive my ticket for being anchored in a no rafting either under the 150 foot mark or being to close to other boats. I’m still not sure which? The MP that gave me my ticket was not clear as to which one I was being cited for.

What?

The MP that gave you a ticket didn't know why?

If you were anchored in the area that we have been discussing then you were probably in a restricted area. Property owners may have called the MP to enforce the rules, but if they (MP) are going to start handing out tickets (fines) then they had best know what they are for!

If the area you were in was not designated a no rafting zone and the MP deployed 5 vessels at the whim of property owners, well then we have a serious issue!

Bottom line, the ticket needs to say what rule you violated. Does it?

billhurley · 07-10-2006, 06:49 AM

JRC,
That land is owned by the owners of West Alton Marina. I know they have not complained. I am not sure what home owner did.

Lakewinniboater · 07-10-2006, 10:10 AM

I too am a West Alton Marina client and have been for some years. Although, I do not see them calling and complaining..... you never know.

I do know that they make it clear to their clients that they may use the land behind the sand bar....they also make it clear that we are to tell people using the land that they MUST be part of West Alton Marina to use it.

I have seen MANY MANY people utilizing the land for their dogs to relieve themselves and their children to play in the sand. If it was my land, I wouldn't be all that happy either. The owners do try to be amicable and helpful but you never know.... maybe they got annoyed with the blantant disrespect for their requests.

Rayhunt · 07-10-2006, 01:11 PM

Im embarrassed to say ive never been there .. I know its a NRZ and one of the reasons ive never stayed.. Are there houses along the shore in the NRZ ?? I realy think MP should have better things to do ?

SixStars · 07-10-2006, 03:11 PM

The MP was there again on Sunday. I noticed they had a list they were looking at and appeared to by checking registration numbers. I have no idea why they were doing this. Anyone else have any clue what they might have been doing? They made a number of boats move and appeared to hand out several tickets.

topwater · 07-10-2006, 04:06 PM

WOW, It appears that no matter what the Marine Patrol does is WRONG. They can't seem to please any of you. If they weren't able to do what they did, then there's a issue, but don't Pi## and Moan here, call someone and do something about it, don't wait for the other guy, step up to the plate!!! I don't believe I've EVER heard one good thing about MP on this forum, its always negative negitive negitive, sounds like bad attitudes being brought into the state. DEAL with it, if your not enjoying it, pull up anchor and go have a ice cream somewhere. I have no connection at all with the MP, so please don't GO OFF on that tangient

jrc · 07-10-2006, 06:23 PM

Re: checking registration numbers

Just guessing, but I think if you got a "please move" and no ticket on Saturday and come Sunday you're are back in the same spot, you'll be sorry.

Just like that warning the State Police gave me on Thursday on RT 93. Next time I'll be paying.

John A. Birdsall · 07-10-2006, 07:49 PM

I'm not sure who owns that beach, there doesn't seem to be a house associated with it. What other property is bothered by the boats rafting there?

When I was a young man, many years ago, I had friends their their parents owned that beach, and have since sold peice's of it off. Recall that the state owns up to high water mark. My friends came from Reading Mass.

Mee-n-Mac · 07-11-2006, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mashugana

"...Any part of such boat..." does that include the anchor itself? The anchor is part of the boat isn't it?

And anchoring 150 foot from shore applies only in certain no raft zones, right?

It can be hard to follow all the rules if you can not understand them.

Thanks in advance.

The rule for any and all boats to be 150' from shore applies in all places designated "No Rafting Zones" (perhaps better termed anchoring restricted zones). Do a search on the forum and you'll find a pretty thorough discussion on this topic. Even boats not "rafted" (is that 2 or 3 boats close together

) are covered by the "rafting" rules as shown in the earlier post.

As to why the MP was out in force this weekend ... I dunno. I'll guess it's because most of the time the NRZ rules are ignored and with boat population and shore development both going up it's inevitable there's going to be (more) friction. While shorefront owners can petition for a NRZ designation they don't get to call someplace an NRZ by themselves. Nor does it prohibit people from anchoring offshore, it just regulates how close in and how closely spaced people (boats) can be.

Silver Duck · 07-11-2006, 06:43 PM

but, is it posible that Director Barrett is responding to all the talk last Winter about the excessive drinking that sometimes goes on at the sand bars being a major safety problem?

Enforcing the "No Rafting" rule provides a tailor-made opportunity for the marine patrol to perform a close check of what's going on and establish a strong presence!

I really can't imagine any other reason that would justify a five boat raid on a sand bar, while taking their eye off Captain Bonehead and all his relatives elsewhere on the lake.

Silver Duck

Paugus Bay Resident · 07-12-2006, 08:36 AM

The interesting thing is that last weekend, the vast majority of the boats there were families with lots of kids. I didn't seen any drinking (lots of Poland Spring bottles) and there was no loud music. Just a lot of families enjoying the day. It was a refreshing change.

Commodore · 07-13-2006, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mashugana

"...Any part of such boat..." does that include the anchor itself? The anchor is part of the boat isn't it?

It can be hard to follow all the rules if you can not understand them.

I would think that the anchor is part of the boat but I hope not.

Does anyone know for sure?

Airwaves · 07-16-2006, 11:34 AM

secondcurve wrote:

Quote:

I have a question for those on the board who want more marine patrol officers to "control" the go fast boaters, mooring balls to solve the rafting issues and more money spent to keep the lake water clean, and so forth. How are we to pay for these services?

I posted a funding source several times during the HB 162 debate, simply eliminate the ability of boaters to get the state gasoline tax rebate. Then earmark those tax dollars collected by marinas, directly to Marine Patrol, this would be IN ADDITION, not in place of current funding sources.

robmac · 07-19-2006, 08:21 AM

My family and I were at West Alton Monday,marine patrol came through and were polite in asking for people to relocate and also where would be a safe place(within thw 150'). Several boats did not have to move I would guess because they would have to leave but were still about 100' from shore

LAH · 07-19-2006, 09:27 AM

I also keep my boat in the West Alton Marina and the fact is they did not make any complaints. It is unfortunate that people make statements without knowing all the facts.

Rayhunt · 07-19-2006, 11:04 AM

What happened to the day when you could go for a swim and have lunch out on the lake .. I personaly think the NRZs' are rediculous ! What gives anyone the right to have such an area established other than it being a navigational hazard.. Oh theres a nice spot of sand , lets close it off !!!!

jrc · 07-19-2006, 10:20 PM

I only know what is reported in this forum and I know that not everything reported here is true.

Unless you are one of the owners of West Alton Marina (Barbara or Brian), then you cannot possibly state as fact what they did or did not tell the Marine Patrol. If I was an owner of WAM, and I was requesting the MP to more vigorously enforce the NRZ, I would not admit it to my customers. What if a customer got a ticket, that's not good for business.

Once again, I have no way of knowing if the reports of what the Marine Patrol said are true.

ApS · 07-20-2006, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alton Bay Resident

I'd glady pay for a day without being potentially hassled by the MP....

The MPs are an extraordinary "presence" so far this season. Where I might have seen one every day, this season there have been as many as three in sight at once off my dock!

DRZs could be placed near present popular sites, but the mooring balls themselves would not have to be so large (such as those at popular snorkeling sites in Florida). They could be "seasonally maintained" by being sunk with a concrete block.

There would have to be some rules—signed by the rafter:

1) No overnights (7AM-7PM use only—ten bucks)
2) Cash only
3) No bow-to-stern raft-ups
4) No anchoring between bouys
5) Two-maximum boats at each bouy
6) Pay "the college kid" (with MP hat), who must present receipt (printed on rice paper) to the rafter, who must then post it visibly
7) Moorings must be abandoned upon approach of severe weather. (Note: Leaving a DRZ mooring otherwise frees it up for a new user)
8) No littering
9) No water balloon fights—no "other stuff"

, like other places far from Winnipesaukee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mee'N'Mac

Not every raft-up needs to be at a beach or be able to touch bottom with your toes.

Heavily-populated shallows and beach rafting areas are likely sites for Duck Itch and other "introduced troubles". Deep rafting areas—free of Duck Itch, severe wakes and wave action—could prove more popular!

Since the Granite State has no shortage of boulders and rocks, they could be trucked in on firm ice, piled, and arranged to protect against the worst wakes/waves. Making use of an existing troublesome area makes sense. (Bizer's Rock comes to mind).

Joanna16 · 07-20-2006, 08:35 AM

The best thing about Alton, Braun and similiar is it's a great place to see our boating friends and family - now I think we'll just pick a spot in the middle of the lake and become a speed bump for Mr. Outta-Control and his drunken friends.
I love diving off the swim platform anyway.

upthesaukee · 07-20-2006, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

I only know what is reported in this forum and I know that not everything reported here is true.

Unless you are one of the owners of West Alton Marina (Barbara or Brian), then you cannot possibly state as fact what they did or did not tell the Marine Patrol. If I was an owner of WAM, and I was requesting the MP to more vigorously enforce the NRZ, I would not admit it to my customers. What if a customer got a ticket, that's not good for business.

Once again, I have no way of knowing if the reports of what the Marine Patrol said are true.

I too keep my boat at West Alton Marina, and I personally feel that if one of the owners tells me that they had nothing to do with the Marine Patrol stepping up enforcement at the sand bar, then that is a fact. That family and I started our business relationship with a handshake, actually a verbal ok over the phone, and have found them to be totally above board in all my dealings with them. Personal conversation with them this morning reiterated the fact that they did not call the MP, and I personally believe them. I only wish that all my business dealings could be done the way they have been with WAM. Mutual trust and respect is a wonderful thing, and unfortunately is missing in many business relationships today.

Just my humble opinion, of course.

fpartri497 · 07-21-2006, 06:36 AM

yesterday, I guess the MP`s didnt feel like bothering anyone at the sandbar. Twice the same MP boat came over looked around for a min. and left. and there where plenty of boats anchored right off the beach. seems like only on the weekend do they bother people.

Aquadeziac · 08-02-2006, 06:59 PM

These people are the ones saying "I am not illerate, my parents were married."---> This morning a friend and I took a short break in our jetski ride to cool off in the water at the sandbar outside WAM. Our skis were anchored well over 150' from shore and there were several other boats out on the fringes of the sandbar but nothing within at least a hundred feet of us. Suddenly a boat pulls in and the guy is putzing with his anchors, and proceeds to set his anchors so he is within 5' of one of our skis. Then all of a sudden his boat is bobbing against the ski. 72 square miles of water and he has to anchor so close he is hitting us!!! We had to end up moving the ski. Then two more boats and a jetski (all friends of Einstein here) show up and start anchoring in close and then they start disembarking and proceeded to drag three huge floating coolers, a portable barbeque and folding lawn chairs off the boat and to the beach. Now we are counting at least eight signs stating "Private Property" , "No Tresspassing" and the like. They proceeded to cart their stuff to the landowner's picnic table and even leaned folding chairs against a "No Tresspassing" sign. Its people like this that give considerate boaters a bad name. They obviously don't possess the inteligence to read and comprehend, or respect other people's property. Maybe the guys just have a set of shiney brass ones so big they have a hard time pulling their pants on......and yet, none of them walked funny. I guess everything was supposed to be okie dokie after we moved our jetski and they fully unpacked that they offered us a cold drink!!I think not! Smarten up people! Think of someone else and their stuff. If they were all from WAM, is everyone in there as inconsiderate as them?? And yet they would be the first to whine when Marine Patrol answers the property owner's complaint "Us?? We weren't doin nuthin', wanna brew officer?" I guess its true...You can't fix stupid.

billhurley · 08-02-2006, 08:21 PM

Aquadeziac what does this inconsiderate person have to do with WAM? Do you know they are from there or just generalizing? Some how I think it may be the later.

I think you need facts before you lump all boaters of West Alton Marina into a stereotype.

Mee-n-Mac · 08-02-2006, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billhurley

Aquadeziac what does this inconsiderate person have to do with WAM? Do you know they are from there or just generalizing? Some how I think it may be the later.

I think you need facts before you lump all boaters of West Alton Marina into a stereotype.

... was the quote I read. I don't think Aquadeziac was saying that they were from WAM. I got the idea that he was thinking that because they were so blatant about ignoring the no trespassing signs that they might be.

billhurley · 08-03-2006, 05:42 AM

Mee-n-Mac,
I read the same thing, but I think you should have facts before you make a comment like that.

I am a big supporter of WAM as you can tell.

chipj29 · 08-03-2006, 10:06 AM

Aqua, perhaps the people with the big shiny brass ones were the landowner, or friends/relatives of the landowner?
I have no clue, just taking a guess...

LAH · 08-03-2006, 03:13 PM

Aquadeziac, Your generalization of all boaters in WAM is inaccurate and mean spirited. If you had a problem with that particular group then that is where you should have directed your comments.

Aquadeziac · 08-03-2006, 08:07 PM

First of all, Mee-n-Mac seems to be the only one reading punctuation. I asked if these people are from WAM, is everyone in there as inconsiderate as them.??? <----see the question marks?? Secondly, I had the opportunity later in the day to talk with a MP officer and was asking about the situations there of late in general. I was explained the "No Rafting" law in its entirety. And then further explained to that anyone upon the beach needs written permission from the property owner to be there and compared to a list to be supplied by the property owner to Marine Patrol for distribution to their patrol boats. At that time when we were talking, he had been given no names yet.
And thirdly, the first two boats did come out from WAM and we had been there long enough to see that they had not entered earlier (ie to get gas). We did not see where the third boat and the jetski came from as we busy moving our own jetski so it didn't get hit again, but given the short time frame, I don't think they came from the direction of open water.Finally, my own opinions of this crowd are rooted in the several times I have stopped there in the past several years, these WAMites self-proclaimed (even here on the forum) their entitlement to this area, only to make outsiders feel that they are letting us use their precious sandbar. I know of others who leave feeling the same way. I have found other places to anchor where the possessive attitude is non-existant. In my own way I look at the untimely enforcement of the Law more as Poetic Justice.

jrc · 08-03-2006, 09:10 PM

Doesn't seem like much fun for a WAMite (WAMy?) to untie their boat and drive to that sandbar to anchor. It hardly seems worth the effort. We see a few boats anchored in the shallow water in front of Silver Sands. I wonder if WAMies boat over to anchor in front of Silver Sands and the Sandies boat over to anchor in front of WAM.

Aquadeziac: I guess WAM customers are allowed to use the beach behind the sandbar, so all the No tresspassing sign stuff really wasn't an issue.

As to anchoring so close to your vessel, mistakes happen. First I'd give the benefit of the doubt, tell him he's too close and ask him to move. The next step depends on his attitude. If he's a newbie, offer to help. If he's a jerk and his boat bobbed against your boat, I would be steamed. You should have wrote down his hull number and asked for his insurance papers. Tell him you're going to file an accident report. That would have got his attention.

07-08-2006, 07:00 PM	#1
Alton Bay Resident Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	West Alton Sandbar - Marine Patrol Trouble Anyone at West Alton Sandbar today (Sat. 7-8-06)? Heard the Marine Patrol gave out many citations for boats being too close to shore and not 50' between boats.... One of my friends who was there got a ticket for $43. Marine Patrol indicated they were following through on a petition from West Alton Marina??? I have been at this sandbar many times and is one of the few where small children can enjoy the water... My 'bitch' is the Marine Patrol is not consistent in their enforcement... Another problem is if you show up early and another boat comes and parks too close to you are you going to tell them to move further from you? NOT.... Any 'inside' comments on this??

07-08-2006, 08:05 PM	#2
SBC Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: NH fresh waters and forests Posts: 72 Thanks: 12 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Rafting Is this the area to which your refer? from Saf-C 407.03: ...Small's Cove in Alton, southwest of an imaginary line running southeast-northwest from light 75 on the northwestern end to the northernmost point of land marking the entrance to the first cove, south of Small's Cove on the south; If so, then it is subject to rafting restrictions as follows: PART Saf-C 407 RAFTING RULES (a) In addition to and in conjunction with the requirements of RSA 270:44, no person, except as otherwise provided herein, shall, in a prohibited location or at a prohibited time: (1) Form or allow a boat which he or she is operating or in charge of to be a member of a raft consisting of 3 or more boats; (2) Form or allow the boat which he or she is operating or in charge of to be a member of a raft if any part of such raft is: a. Less than 150 feet from shore; or b. Less than 50 feet from any other raft; or c. Less than 50 feet from any occupied single boat which is stationary upon the waters of the same lake or pond; and (3) Anchor a single boat and cause it to remain stationary upon the waters of a lake or pond other than momentarily if any part of such boat is: a. Less than 150 feet from shore; or b. Less than 50 feet away from any raft; or c. Less than 25 feet away from any other single boat which is stationary upon the waters of such lake or pond. You may also want to refer to: http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/...270/270-44.htm Seems like the natives have complained and the MPs have responded. That's what we pay them to do. I am curious though; how can any law enforcement effort be consistant, water or land side, if they can't be in all places at all times?

07-09-2006, 10:04 AM	#6
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	The rafting rules seem to change every few years. I remember a rule about distance from swim lines, but I can't find it online anymore, did it change? NH has both laws and administrative rules. I'm not a lawyer so this may all be wrong. But I thought that the rules had to based in a law. I can't find where the 150' from shore rules (Saf-C 407.a.2.a and Saf-C 407.a.3.a) come from. There is no mention of distance from shore in any of the rafting laws or definitions of rafting (RSA 270:42, RSA 270:43, RSA 270:44, RSA 270:45, or RSA 270:46) How can a rule be made to restrict rafting that prohibits an activity that clearly isn't rafting. Maybe some legal eagle will get a rafting ticket someday and fight this. Last edited by jrc; 07-09-2006 at 10:42 AM.

07-09-2006, 11:24 AM	#9
CEP Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Charlton City,MA Posts: 110 Thanks: 8 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	My Opinion If West Alton Marina has placed a petition maybe someone from West Alton Marina could come on and explain to the Forum Members, What's Up?? Also if I was a user of the sandbar in question, I would take my business to a place other than West Alton Marina! I'm sure things would have been different if West Alton Marina would have let their feeling be know before contacting the MP's. Makes for a better customer relationship! CEP

07-09-2006, 03:23 PM	#11
Lakegeezer Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 1,657 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 342 Thanked 618 Times in 278 Posts	Would be nice to know This incident and others beg for a transparent MP organization. It would be nice to know what is being enforced and where. I assume the records are public. Why doesn't any newspaper print the log? __________________ -lg

07-08-2006, 08:36 PM	#3
Paugus Bay Resident Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Gilmanton, NH Posts: 754 Thanks: 136 Thanked 92 Times in 51 Posts	We were there (anchored pretty far up). There were 5 MP boats (3 at the beginning of the channel) and 2 inside the sand bar. From what I was told, the 3 at the entrance were checking boats for boater certificates. The other 2 were moving everyone 150 feet from shore. A couple of people told me that they got $75 tickets. We were there from 10 - 7pm and they didn't bother us. It really wasn't that crowded. They didn't seem too concerned with the 25 / 50 foot separation, only the 150 from shore.

07-08-2006, 11:45 PM	#5
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	I was anchored there during this as well. The MP gathered outside the sandbar for at least 20 minuted before they came in. I was well away from shore and at the start, the closest boat to me was about 40-50 feet, so I wasn't worried. Actually the place was pretty quiet, no loud music, no obvious drunks, just a bunch of kids swimming. First they went to the extreme back of the area, down near where the channel leads to the marina. There were three or more good size crusiers close to each other and close to shore. I was too far to see the exact number and if they were actually touching. I also couldn't see if they were ticketed. One of these boats came out with a steaming captain. He yelled to a few boats along the way. Saying everyone was going to get tickets. One boat simply crossed the channel and anchored on the other side. (which is not a no rafting zone) The steaming captain stopped and talked with a MP boat in deep water. I'm not sure who initiated that conversation. After that corner was cleared out. The MP started working their way along the swim lines. I guess they were enforcing the 150' from shore rule. Most of the boats moved up a few feet sometimes more. It sure looked like a few tickets were handed out but it wasn't obvious why some got them and some didn't. They didn't seem interested in boats being too close together. Not far from me were two boats tied together and a third only a few feet away. By now all the displaced boats were moving to new spots. So it was getting tight. Once a pontoon boat decide to anchor between my boat and my anchor, I decided it was time to leave.

07-09-2006, 11:07 AM	#8
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	In among the boats, I saw one of the big gray inflatables, and a small un-marked maroon aluminum boat. Floating outside the sandbar were three of their white fiberglass boats. They were pulling people over, I could not tell the reason. They didn't pull everyone over and they may have had a focus on PWCs, but my focus wasn't really on them. Airwaves, they can always find a reason to pull you over.

07-09-2006, 11:35 AM	#10
Airwaves Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: I'm right here! Posts: 1,153 Thanks: 9 Thanked 102 Times in 37 Posts	Sure they can always find a reason, but it has to be legit, otherwise sooner or later they'll pull over the wrong boat and the state will get caught up in serious litigation. As I understand it, the intent of the law was to NOT give MP the authority to pull folks over to check for boating certificates, but if the boater is stopped for a violation of rules then MP should check for the certificate. Seems to me it was a safeguard included by lawmakers to prevent random checks. Now if they were checking boats at anchor that may have been violating a no rafting rule, that's fine. To pull over a boat that is underway and check for the certificate goes beyond the scope of the law as I understand it. I'd be interested to see, of the boats pulled over that were underway, were any tickets handed out for violations other than lack of boating certificates?

07-09-2006, 09:52 PM	#12
APIMIS Junior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: MASS Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I believe I am the steaming Captain as you say; although I was not steaming I was just answering a question from a friend that happened to be anchored at the sandbar. As for the going out to talk to the MP’s I was sent out there to receive my ticket for being anchored in a no rafting either under the 150 foot mark or being to close to other boats. I’m still not sure which? The MP that gave me my ticket was not clear as to which one I was being cited for. The MP that sent me out told me that everyone to the right of me was being ticketed. The MP Officers were not consistent with their info when asked questions or ticketing process. The one point that was consistent was that it was the property owners that were complaining. My concern is that with all the homes being built on the shore lines can they just arbitrarily designate no rafting zones as they call it whenever homeowners chose not to share public waters with the boating public which would further restrict anchoring and swimming areas for families. With the price of gas and not having a legal place to anchor where the children can swim safely it won’t be worth having a boat on the lake.

07-09-2006, 10:15 PM	#13
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	I'm sorry if I misinterpreted and mis-reported your demeanor as "steaming". I thought you were just angry about the ticket. I agree with all your remarks about the arbitrary nature of no rafting zones. I'm not sure who owns that beach, there doesn't seem to be a house associated with it. What other property is bothered by the boats rafting there?

07-10-2006, 06:49 AM	#16
billhurley Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: St. Augustine FL. Posts: 86 Thanks: 2 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	JRC, That land is owned by the owners of West Alton Marina. I know they have not complained. I am not sure what home owner did. Last edited by billhurley; 07-18-2006 at 02:01 PM.

07-10-2006, 10:10 AM	#17
Lakewinniboater Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Westford, MA and Alton Bay, NH Posts: 225 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	West Alton Marina I too am a West Alton Marina client and have been for some years. Although, I do not see them calling and complaining..... you never know. I do know that they make it clear to their clients that they may use the land behind the sand bar....they also make it clear that we are to tell people using the land that they MUST be part of West Alton Marina to use it. I have seen MANY MANY people utilizing the land for their dogs to relieve themselves and their children to play in the sand. If it was my land, I wouldn't be all that happy either. The owners do try to be amicable and helpful but you never know.... maybe they got annoyed with the blantant disrespect for their requests. __________________ Wendy "Wasn't Me!"

07-10-2006, 01:11 PM	#18
Rayhunt Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Gilford NH Posts: 112 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Rafting Im embarrassed to say ive never been there .. I know its a NRZ and one of the reasons ive never stayed.. Are there houses along the shore in the NRZ ?? I realy think MP should have better things to do ?

07-10-2006, 03:11 PM	#19
SixStars Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	More MP enforcement on Sunday The MP was there again on Sunday. I noticed they had a list they were looking at and appeared to by checking registration numbers. I have no idea why they were doing this. Anyone else have any clue what they might have been doing? They made a number of boats move and appeared to hand out several tickets.

07-10-2006, 04:06 PM	#20
topwater Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 302 Thanks: 85 Thanked 116 Times in 48 Posts	WOW, It appears that no matter what the Marine Patrol does is WRONG. They can't seem to please any of you. If they weren't able to do what they did, then there's a issue, but don't Pi## and Moan here, call someone and do something about it, don't wait for the other guy, step up to the plate!!! I don't believe I've EVER heard one good thing about MP on this forum, its always negative negitive negitive, sounds like bad attitudes being brought into the state. DEAL with it, if your not enjoying it, pull up anchor and go have a ice cream somewhere. I have no connection at all with the MP, so please don't GO OFF on that tangient

07-10-2006, 06:23 PM	#21
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	Re: checking registration numbers Just guessing, but I think if you got a "please move" and no ticket on Saturday and come Sunday you're are back in the same spot, you'll be sorry. Just like that warning the State Police gave me on Thursday on RT 93. Next time I'll be paying.

07-10-2006, 07:49 PM	#22
John A. Birdsall Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Norwich, CT Posts: 599 Thanks: 27 Thanked 51 Times in 35 Posts	I'm not sure who owns that beach, there doesn't seem to be a house associated with it. What other property is bothered by the boats rafting there? When I was a young man, many years ago, I had friends their their parents owned that beach, and have since sold peice's of it off. Recall that the state owns up to high water mark. My friends came from Reading Mass.

07-11-2006, 06:43 PM	#24
Silver Duck Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Billerica, MA Posts: 364 Thanks: 40 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Just a thought... but, is it posible that Director Barrett is responding to all the talk last Winter about the excessive drinking that sometimes goes on at the sand bars being a major safety problem? Enforcing the "No Rafting" rule provides a tailor-made opportunity for the marine patrol to perform a close check of what's going on and establish a strong presence! I really can't imagine any other reason that would justify a five boat raid on a sand bar, while taking their eye off Captain Bonehead and all his relatives elsewhere on the lake. Silver Duck

07-12-2006, 08:36 AM	#25
Paugus Bay Resident Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Gilmanton, NH Posts: 754 Thanks: 136 Thanked 92 Times in 51 Posts	The interesting thing is that last weekend, the vast majority of the boats there were families with lots of kids. I didn't seen any drinking (lots of Poland Spring bottles) and there was no loud music. Just a lot of families enjoying the day. It was a refreshing change.

07-19-2006, 08:21 AM	#28
robmac Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Nashua,Meredith Posts: 951 Thanks: 213 Thanked 106 Times in 81 Posts	My family and I were at West Alton Monday,marine patrol came through and were polite in asking for people to relocate and also where would be a safe place(within thw 150'). Several boats did not have to move I would guess because they would have to leave but were still about 100' from shore

07-19-2006, 09:27 AM	#29
LAH Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	My two cents I also keep my boat in the West Alton Marina and the fact is they did not make any complaints. It is unfortunate that people make statements without knowing all the facts.

07-19-2006, 11:04 AM	#30
Rayhunt Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Gilford NH Posts: 112 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Its Bad What happened to the day when you could go for a swim and have lunch out on the lake .. I personaly think the NRZs' are rediculous ! What gives anyone the right to have such an area established other than it being a navigational hazard.. Oh theres a nice spot of sand , lets close it off !!!!

07-19-2006, 10:20 PM	#31
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	I only know what is reported in this forum and I know that not everything reported here is true. Unless you are one of the owners of West Alton Marina (Barbara or Brian), then you cannot possibly state as fact what they did or did not tell the Marine Patrol. If I was an owner of WAM, and I was requesting the MP to more vigorously enforce the NRZ, I would not admit it to my customers. What if a customer got a ticket, that's not good for business. Once again, I have no way of knowing if the reports of what the Marine Patrol said are true.

07-20-2006, 08:35 AM	#33
Joanna16 Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On a Lake in NH Posts: 47 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The best thing about Alton, Braun and similiar is it's a great place to see our boating friends and family - now I think we'll just pick a spot in the middle of the lake and become a speed bump for Mr. Outta-Control and his drunken friends. I love diving off the swim platform anyway.

07-21-2006, 06:36 AM	#35
fpartri497 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Concord NH Posts: 681 Thanks: 97 Thanked 48 Times in 39 Posts	west alton sandbar yesterday, I guess the MP`s didnt feel like bothering anyone at the sandbar. Twice the same MP boat came over looked around for a min. and left. and there where plenty of boats anchored right off the beach. seems like only on the weekend do they bother people. __________________ dont worry be happy

08-02-2006, 06:59 PM	#36
Aquadeziac Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Concord NH Posts: 239 Thanks: 19 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Captain Bonehead's cousin These people are the ones saying "I am not illerate, my parents were married."---> This morning a friend and I took a short break in our jetski ride to cool off in the water at the sandbar outside WAM. Our skis were anchored well over 150' from shore and there were several other boats out on the fringes of the sandbar but nothing within at least a hundred feet of us. Suddenly a boat pulls in and the guy is putzing with his anchors, and proceeds to set his anchors so he is within 5' of one of our skis. Then all of a sudden his boat is bobbing against the ski. 72 square miles of water and he has to anchor so close he is hitting us!!! We had to end up moving the ski. Then two more boats and a jetski (all friends of Einstein here) show up and start anchoring in close and then they start disembarking and proceeded to drag three huge floating coolers, a portable barbeque and folding lawn chairs off the boat and to the beach. Now we are counting at least eight signs stating "Private Property" , "No Tresspassing" and the like. They proceeded to cart their stuff to the landowner's picnic table and even leaned folding chairs against a "No Tresspassing" sign. Its people like this that give considerate boaters a bad name. They obviously don't possess the inteligence to read and comprehend, or respect other people's property. Maybe the guys just have a set of shiney brass ones so big they have a hard time pulling their pants on......and yet, none of them walked funny. I guess everything was supposed to be okie dokie after we moved our jetski and they fully unpacked that they offered us a cold drink!!I think not! Smarten up people! Think of someone else and their stuff. If they were all from WAM, is everyone in there as inconsiderate as them?? And yet they would be the first to whine when Marine Patrol answers the property owner's complaint "Us?? We weren't doin nuthin', wanna brew officer?" I guess its true...You can't fix stupid. __________________ "He who dies with the most toys wins"

08-02-2006, 08:21 PM	#37
billhurley Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: St. Augustine FL. Posts: 86 Thanks: 2 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Aquadeziac what does this inconsiderate person have to do with WAM? Do you know they are from there or just generalizing? Some how I think it may be the later. I think you need facts before you lump all boaters of West Alton Marina into a stereotype.

08-03-2006, 05:42 AM	#39
billhurley Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: St. Augustine FL. Posts: 86 Thanks: 2 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Mee-n-Mac, I read the same thing, but I think you should have facts before you make a comment like that. I am a big supporter of WAM as you can tell.

08-03-2006, 10:06 AM	#40
chipj29 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bow Posts: 1,874 Thanks: 521 Thanked 308 Times in 162 Posts	Landowner? Aqua, perhaps the people with the big shiny brass ones were the landowner, or friends/relatives of the landowner? I have no clue, just taking a guess...

08-03-2006, 03:13 PM	#41
LAH Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Nice Aquadeziac, Your generalization of all boaters in WAM is inaccurate and mean spirited. If you had a problem with that particular group then that is where you should have directed your comments.

08-03-2006, 08:07 PM	#42
Aquadeziac Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Concord NH Posts: 239 Thanks: 19 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Just the facts First of all, Mee-n-Mac seems to be the only one reading punctuation. I asked if these people are from WAM, is everyone in there as inconsiderate as them.??? <----see the question marks?? Secondly, I had the opportunity later in the day to talk with a MP officer and was asking about the situations there of late in general. I was explained the "No Rafting" law in its entirety. And then further explained to that anyone upon the beach needs written permission from the property owner to be there and compared to a list to be supplied by the property owner to Marine Patrol for distribution to their patrol boats. At that time when we were talking, he had been given no names yet. And thirdly, the first two boats did come out from WAM and we had been there long enough to see that they had not entered earlier (ie to get gas). We did not see where the third boat and the jetski came from as we busy moving our own jetski so it didn't get hit again, but given the short time frame, I don't think they came from the direction of open water.Finally, my own opinions of this crowd are rooted in the several times I have stopped there in the past several years, these WAMites self-proclaimed (even here on the forum) their entitlement to this area, only to make outsiders feel that they are letting us use their precious sandbar. I know of others who leave feeling the same way. I have found other places to anchor where the possessive attitude is non-existant. In my own way I look at the untimely enforcement of the Law more as Poetic Justice. __________________ "He who dies with the most toys wins"

08-03-2006, 09:10 PM	#43
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	Doesn't seem like much fun for a WAMite (WAMy?) to untie their boat and drive to that sandbar to anchor. It hardly seems worth the effort. We see a few boats anchored in the shallow water in front of Silver Sands. I wonder if WAMies boat over to anchor in front of Silver Sands and the Sandies boat over to anchor in front of WAM. Aquadeziac: I guess WAM customers are allowed to use the beach behind the sandbar, so all the No tresspassing sign stuff really wasn't an issue. As to anchoring so close to your vessel, mistakes happen. First I'd give the benefit of the doubt, tell him he's too close and ask him to move. The next step depends on his attitude. If he's a newbie, offer to help. If he's a jerk and his boat bobbed against your boat, I would be steamed. You should have wrote down his hull number and asked for his insurance papers. Tell him you're going to file an accident report. That would have got his attention.