NH unemployment rate

[Biggd]

It's not just a "lakes region" problem. Please delete if not appropriate.
NH unemployment rate dropped to 1.9%.
It doesn't look like the help situation will get any better this summer?
The average age of residents is higher than most US states, lots of retired folks.
They need to figure out a way to attract the young people.

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Please delete if not appropriate.
NH unemployment rate dropped to 1.9%.
It doesn't look like the help situation will get any better this summer?
The average age of residents is higher than most US states, lots of retired folks.
They need to figure out a way to attract the young people.

Why? How about we figure out a way to make it more comfortable and affordable for us older retirees?


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[dickiej]

The disconnect comes at the housing level….rents, for a myriad of reasons, are skyrocketing. Summer hospitality jobs don’t pay enough to afford a place to live. Tourist areas are getting like vail and aspen….the lift attendants have to live 40 miles away.

[Mr. V]

Maybe start a corporation to import workers from overseas.

Members of the corp would be employers who need seasonal workers.

The corporation would need to arrange / provide housing.

Didn't the T-shirt / sunglaases store at the Weirs do this?

I recall chatting with a young lady working there for the summer, she was enjoying her trip from Europe to America and getting paid for it.

Win-win?

[WinnisquamZ]

Disconnect? Not sure what you mean. Summer help has been and will continue to be a struggle. It’s been that way since I can remember. Today’s issues are a result of the population explosion during these months. It’s for four months. Let’s all be thankful for what it brings to the local community. But, we need to start addressing the infrastructure in and around Laconia. Increased housing only places a larger burden on the crumbling roads drainage


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Descant]

This thought is not new, but I recall we used to have allocations for ~40K foreign student jobs, and the number got reduced to 30K and never increased again. These students filled a lot of hospitality and summer camp jobs. Isn't there an old thread on this topic?

[John Mercier]

Was that H-2B? I think the cap was raised.

You have to offer the same pay and benefits to US workers first to qualify for sponsoring a H-2B applicant.

And for many businesses with strong demand, there simply isn't the skill sets we need.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Disconnect? Not sure what you mean. Summer help has been and will continue to be a struggle. It’s been that way since I can remember. Today’s issues are a result of the population explosion during these months. It’s for four months. Let’s all be thankful for what it brings to the local community. But, we need to start addressing the infrastructure in and around Laconia. Increased housing only places a larger burden on the crumbling roads drainage


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Laconia chose to promote tourism.
If it isn't making enough money off the tourism... it may want to change course.

[TheTimeTraveler]

......and meanwhile we have thousands of immigrants crossing into our country at the southern border. Likely none of them have jobs lined up.

I recognize the housing is an issue but wouldn't it be nice if they could be used to fill these voids all over the country.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Why? How about we figure out a way to make it more comfortable and affordable for us older retirees?


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

You need young workers to help the older retirees. You can't just have a state full of retirees.
But I'm glad this is a civil discussion. It is an important problem in the lakes region that needs to be addressed.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by TheTimeTraveler

......and meanwhile we have thousands of immigrants crossing into our country at the southern border. Likely none of them have jobs lined up.

I recognize the housing is an issue but wouldn't it be nice if they could be used to fill these voids all over the country.

I would bet that most of them are finding employment off-the-grid.

So they most likely have jobs... just not ones reported to the government.

[songkrai]

Originally Posted by dickiej

The disconnect comes at the housing level….

Zoning restrictions. Each year the cities and towns pass more and more restrictive zoning. Don't want no working class young families moving into towns. They might have kids. Kids that go to school. Don't want that.

Cluster housing is an example of providing affordable housing.
Manufactured housing in clusters would provide an affordable solution.

Simple affordable solution to the housing shortage.

[WinnisquamZ]

Disagree. Over 55 housing is a example of cluster housing that many towns have welcomed.
Affordable or family housing is never defined or can it be. Many projects have started with the promise of both then revised as completion nears. Two recent examples are here in Laconia. Lake port condos were permitted on the promise of market rate apartments. Now they are condos. Second is the 96 unit apartment complex in the south Laconia area. All market rate apartments. No family or low income units.
Let’s not forget the increased infrastructure costs each city and town must pay. Fire, police, schools etc….


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[John Mercier]

55 and over is an example of what Songkrai is talking about....
Bad zoning.

Also, all those ''apartments'' had to be market rate to get the permitting.
Market rate is not low income...

Even the State School property has to be market rate. Which means to get the cost down... we have to do high grade cluster. And because we cannot restrict the units to only those under 55 (age discrimination), we cannot guarantee that they will house members of the workforce instead of second homes and retirees.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Disconnect? Not sure what you mean. Summer help has been and will continue to be a struggle. It’s been that way since I can remember. Today’s issues are a result of the population explosion during these months. It’s for four months. Let’s all be thankful for what it brings to the local community. But, we need to start addressing the infrastructure in and around Laconia. Increased housing only places a larger burden on the crumbling roads drainage

Wolfeboro Falls' Harvest Market is paying a $1000 new employment bonus!

[tis]

Originally Posted by ApS

Wolfeboro Falls' Harvest Market is paying a $1000 new employment bonus!

I cannot imagine how that store is going to handle the summer without Hunter's. Can you, APS?

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by tis

I cannot imagine how that store is going to handle the summer without Hunter's. Can you, APS?

It's also not as good a store as Hunters. Plenty of folks to the north will go to Heath's, many to the south will go to Hanford's

[tis]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

It's also not as good a store as Hunters. Plenty of folks to the north will go to Heath's, many to the south will go to Hanford's

But if you just need a couple of things, you hate to take the time to go there. And when the summer people all get here, I think a lot of them will got there for convenience.

[TheTimeTraveler]

Originally Posted by tis

I cannot imagine how that store is going to handle the summer without Hunter's. Can you, APS?

I think a lot of folks will take the 35 minute drive down to the Market Basket located on Route 11 in Rochester.

Once you shop at a Market Basket you'll never return to Harvest Market (or Hunters when they reopen). The selection and prices can not be beat at Market Basket.

I've always viewed Hunters and Harvest Market as Wolfeboro biggest Convenience Stores because you really pay a lot for anything there (it is very convenient though).

[tis]

Originally Posted by TheTimeTraveler

I think a lot of folks will take the 35 minute drive down to the Market Basket located on Route 11 in Rochester.

Once you shop at a Market Basket you'll never return to Harvest Market (or Hunters when they reopen). The selection and prices can not be beat at Market Basket.

I've always viewed Hunters and Harvest Market as Wolfeboro biggest Convenience Stores because you really pay a lot for anything there (it is very convenient though).

True, but it spoils most of a half day to go down there. And lately we don't seem to be very efficient, we're always running out of something. I think I would spend my life going to Rochester.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tis

I cannot imagine how that store is going to handle the summer without Hunter's. Can you, APS?

Where did the Hunter's employees go?
It seems they may be trying to lure some of them in.

[tis]

I think only one went to Harvest. I heard that Hunter's had insurance so that they are being paid until it is rebuilt which is nice for them, so I hope it's true.

[Cobalt 12]

Originally Posted by TheTimeTraveler

......and meanwhile we have thousands of immigrants crossing into our country at the southern border. Likely none of them have jobs lined up.

I recognize the housing is an issue but wouldn't it be nice if they could be used to fill these voids all over the country.

Are you trying to Justify Illegal Immigration because it might benefit you?

[songkrai]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Disagree. Over 55 housing is a example of cluster housing that many towns have welcomed.
Affordable or family housing is never defined or can it be.

No. Not mentioning any age group. Just affordable housing. In clusters.

We love all of our workers in grocery stores, hardware stores, convenience stores, etc. But the snobs out there do not wish to allow any type of affordable housing.

Cluster housing of manufactured homes for all age groups is a solution.

Now let the snobs chime in !

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by songkrai

No. Not mentioning any age group. Just affordable housing. In clusters.

We love all of our workers in grocery stores, hardware stores, convenience stores, etc. But the snobs out there do not wish to allow any type of affordable housing.

Cluster housing of manufactured homes for all age groups is a solution.

Now let the snobs chime in !

Personal insults are the last line of defense when one’s side of the discussion can’t be defended with facts. I ask again, define affordable housing? Also, please identify where in NH it has successfully been built.

[John Mercier]

Affordable housing is defined as costing no more than 30% of the median household income of an area.

To do market rate affordable housing, you have to build housing until demand/supply begin to balance...
We are currently out of balance thousands of units in the Lakes Region, and do not expect to catch up in the current environment for many years.

An exact location...
Old North Main Street was built after WWII as affordable cluster housing.
It somewhat followed the modelling of Levittown NY.
Small lots, simple design, using easily acquired standardized materials.
They were mass produced to the point of saturation so that supply/demand would balance.

Workforce housing is the term you may be questioning...
It is housing marketed toward the late 20s through early 50s crowd... usually small family homes, agains using the Levittown model.

Without workforcing housing... you have to pay more for the same municipal labor force for the same level of service. So property taxes rise to cover those labor costs. Business struggle toward the higher margins that can cover the increased labor costs. Our current situation.

[Biggd]

Mass just reported their unemployment rate fell to 2.8%.
I'm sure Cape Cod and the Islands are feeling the same effect of the labor shortage as in the NH Lakes region.
On another note, the 25 year son of one of my best friends moved to Florida a year ago with 30K in his bank account.
He just moved back to Mass because he said he couldn't make enough money to live down there and went through most of his savings, plenty of work but they pay nothing. He did say he wanted to try it again some day.

[WinnisquamZ]

Affordable housing and workforce housing is the same thing. Contrary to what’s said. Most businesses in NH are and have been successful without the affordable staff housing some say is needed. Yes, many businesses would like additional help, and it hasn’t stop others from opening new establishments. I can think of three new restaurants in Laconia proper that will be opening this month.
The city of Laconia and each surrounding town is raking in the cash. Builders are booked two years out. And the tradesman are unavailable though out the region. So please tell me again how affordable housing will make everything better?


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[John Mercier]

Because we are two years out...
To keep going, we need to increase labor pay and benefits.

That also equates to higher pay and benefits for employees... which equates to higher taxes and prices for the same level of service.

That is the basis for inflation.
It can't be described as good one minute and then decried because it cost too much to live here the next.

[TheTimeTraveler]

Originally Posted by Cobalt 12

Are you trying to Justify Illegal Immigration because it might benefit you?

Actually NOT. I am all for the wall. I do hate to see folks cross the border and then start sucking up taxpayer benefits without their own contribution into our system. Let's put them to work.

Businesses all over the country actually do NEED the help. Is it because of Covid? Maybe yes, maybe no. I do know that the baby boomers are retiring all over the country and it has become difficult to fill many positions. I also know there are jobs out there that Americans no longer will do (think landscaping, fast foods, hotel maids, etc.).

Last year many restaurants in the Lakes Region had to cut back on their hours or their days open because they were unable to obtain the staffing. Plenty of work available for those interested in working.

[Cobalt 12]

Actually NOT.

[WeirsGurl]

When I was a kid, my parents rented the same cottage every summer for two weeks. A neighboring family was lucky enough to own and be able to spend the entire summer every year. Their teen kids were required to get jobs throughout the season. One was our babysitter, another served pizza on Weirs Pier :-)
I wonder how many privileged summer residents make their kids get jobs here nowadays? Me thinks it would help a lot, if they did!

Things that make you go hhhmmmmm....

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by TheTimeTraveler

Actually NOT. I am all for the wall. I do hate to see folks cross the border and then start sucking up taxpayer benefits without their own contribution into our system. Let's put them to work.

Businesses all over the country actually do NEED the help. Is it because of Covid? Maybe yes, maybe no. I do know that the baby boomers are retiring all over the country and it has become difficult to fill many positions. I also know there are jobs out there that Americans no longer will do (think landscaping, fast foods, hotel maids, etc.).

Last year many restaurants in the Lakes Region had to cut back on their hours or their days open because they were unable to obtain the staffing. Plenty of work available for those interested in working.

Americans will do them... if you pay them enough.
Of course, that means they are going to leave other jobs that will have to pay more to hire workers and the musical chairs starts.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by WeirsGurl

When I was a kid, my parents rented the same cottage every summer for two weeks. A neighboring family was lucky enough to own and be able to spend the entire summer every year. Their teen kids were required to get jobs throughout the season. One was our babysitter, another served pizza on Weirs Pier :-)
I wonder how many privileged summer residents make their kids get jobs here nowadays? Me thinks it would help a lot, if they did!

Things that make you go hhhmmmmm....

A friend of mine had a place at Lakeshore Park and would spend most of his summers here...and also at Jackson's Star.

I definitely think there used to be more of that in general, but I'm not sure if it's "privilege" that prevents it these days or alternatives. I know a few of my students who have homes in the LR stay home in MA to work because the pay is higher/double and it's easier for consistency throughout the school year.

Many of my other students are involved in internships, taking college courses to finish early/get ahead, or traveling.

Sent from my SM-S911U using Tapatalk

[The Real BigGuy]

A couple of things:

The term “affordable housing” means different things to different segments. To some it means housing that a working person can afford to live in without starving. To others (i.e., developers) it means pricing housing at something less than market so they can get municipalities to permit development by adding to the affordable housing stock. Where I live a developer built townhouses that sold for 750,000 with 30% set aside as “affordable” and priced at 480,000. My question is - affordable to whom?

When my son-in-law played independent league baseball the team struck a deal with a local boarding school to use the dorms for the players. I wonder if local C o Cs have thought about talking to schools like Brewster to rent dorms for summer seasonal help?

I’m always surprised how people talk about needing to pay higher wages to make sure their local shop & restaurants are fully staffed but then complain about higher prices & inflation. Where do they think the revenue to increase pay is supposed to come from? It doesn’t fall from the sky and I certainly don’t expect business owners to cut their profits. People, it is a cycle that can’t be broken - increased pay leads to higher prices that lead to demand for increased pay that leads to higher prices and on and on.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[tis]

Real BigGuy,

You are so right and people just don't seem to realize that higher wages don't make people get ahead, because the cost then goes up on everything so it costs more to live. It is all relative. The business pays a dollar more an hour so has to charge a dollar more for it's product. It's a wash.

[John Mercier]

''Affordable Housing'' is an industry term.

30% of median household income to pay for mortgage, taxes, and insurance.
Banking has been using this as a loan standard with a little variation for decades.

They also use it to figure rents.

[The Real BigGuy]

You are correct JM, that is how HUD defines it and it is the standard that is used to determine when a developer is eligible for subsidies - the most important part to the developer. That 30%, which was initially used only for rent calculation and only later fell into use for owner occupied property, also hasn’t been adjusted since 1981 and housing costs have far out stripped income since then.

I believe most people would say that affordable housing is housing that people can afford & still have enough money to live. If we are going to build “Affordable Housing” it should truly be affordable not just meet an outdated government standard.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[John Mercier]

It doesn't have to be updated.
The variables in the formula are median income and housing prices.
They are self-correcting.

The only issue is the self-correction takes time... and is very hard on the population that doesn't see it coming until it is too late.

[FlyingScot]

Agree with John that the formula is self correcting. But RBG's basic point is the most important one--housing prices have far outstripped median income so that more and more people are below the 30% threshold. More and more people need help just to have a place to live. Note that because the formula is self correcting, it means that this is not because the current generation is lazy. it means that for any given home, a person needs to be farther up the ladder relative to others. And of course, there are a limited number of spots farther up the ladder, by definition

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tis

Real BigGuy,

You are so right and people just don't seem to realize that higher wages don't make people get ahead, because the cost then goes up on everything so it costs more to live. It is all relative. The business pays a dollar more an hour so has to charge a dollar more for it's product. It's a wash.

Only when demand is internal, not external.

Laconia has roughly the same resident population that it had in the 1980 census. We have built probably thousands of new housing units in Laconia since that time. The demand is thus external.

[The Real BigGuy]

“Only when demand is internal, not external”

I’m interested in how you get to that. When demand, internal or external, causes price increases labor wants wage increases. Prices increase to cover wage increases and so it goes.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[John Mercier]

Internal demand means that with wages increase you will automatically get price increases...
External demand doesn't automatically affect the cost of worker utilization.

It is why manufacturing can be done easily in cheap areas...
The demand does not affect the local prices as the demand is external.
A company can raise the prices based on demand... but does not need to pay labor significantly more for each dollar earned unless it desires to.
When it is a product/service that is not exported... it is internalized, and then the company is forced to raise prices.

As prices of the manufactured product increase, that is the stabilization method that brings down demand to what the workers can produced.

We internalized our costs locally by using housing in an unconventional manner.
Instead of investing in hotels, motels, and campgrounds... we now use residential housing. Long term workers seldom, if ever, historically used hotels, motels, and campgrounds as primary housing.

We aren't likely to see a shift back to that historical norm... so we will need to accept the wage and price increase associated with them.

[The Real BigGuy]

Thanks for the explanation. It is essentially the same one I was taught in an economics class at UNH in 1971.

While I don’t disagree with the theory, it works when you are discussing locally produced products that are exported outside a geographical area and where the demand for those goods outside the local area has no effect on the local economy.) I think it doesn’t apply it this situation. If the demand for products or services increase locally, regardless if the buyer is local (internal) or from out of the area (external), prices will increase locally. These increases will start, or continue the price/wage/price/wage cycle.

I also believe that housing is only one factor in the cycle. For example food, which is more expensive in the lakes region then in suburban Boston (per my wife) is a factor. This demand may be caused by fewer local outlets (demand) or price increases because “seasonal residents can afford it” but it is there. Also, more and more of the seasonal vacation residences are being transformed into year round homes that bring what locals call “flat landers” to the region more and blur the boundaries of seasonal demand.

(This will be my final post on this subject as it appears JM and I are dominating the thread. JM, thanks for the discussion.)


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[John Mercier]

Food, and essential like housing, works in the same manner.
The local supply was based on what local demand was prior to the surge of buyers into the local internalized economy.

Restaurants had their own supply lines... so tourists coming here didn't effect the local supermarket demand.

Housing provides them a kitchen, and so they make a supply run when they get here... and another one on their way back home.

[retired]

My sons all had summer jobs at the Weirs during high school and college. We have a local workforce called teenagers. They need to get motivated and climb out from behind their cell phones and computers and get to work. It would help if the businesses would pay a higher wage. If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by retired

My sons all had summer jobs at the Weirs during high school and college. We have a local workforce called teenagers. They need to get motivated and climb out from behind their cell phones and computers and get to work. It would help if the businesses would pay a higher wage. If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

Disagree. Little to do with laziness and more to do with handouts. Parents paying for everything without asking for work in return is just one issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[John Mercier]

Local student population has been falling for over a decade.
Retirees and second home owners have been rising for over a decade.

Reagan and O'Neil pointed this out to us in 1984, when they had their Rose Garden announcement on social security. The number of US workers compared to retirees would be at the lowest ratio as Boomers entered retirement.

That started in 2010, will culminate next year when the largest group of Boomers born in 1959 will reach Medicare.

The SSA predicts that this will largely balance out by 2070.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Disagree. Little to do with laziness and more to do with handouts. Parents paying for everything without asking for work in return is just one issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

What is your evidence for this? How many teens do you know and interact with to make this claim?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/teen-jo...et-11651866919

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...t/70296218007/

Sent from my SM-S911U using Tapatalk

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by retired

My sons all had summer jobs at the Weirs during high school and college. We have a local workforce called teenagers. They need to get motivated and climb out from behind their cell phones and computers and get to work. It would help if the businesses would pay a higher wage. If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

I, too, had summer jobs in the Lakes Region. My kids don't - they work back home. The lowest paid makes $16/hour. With tips, one makes $25+/hour. This is for unskilled work with a flexible schedule (and over 40 hours/week anytime they want it). They looked up here - lower pay and less flexibility.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by dickiej

The disconnect comes at the housing level….rents, for a myriad of reasons, are skyrocketing. Summer hospitality jobs don’t pay enough to afford a place to live. Tourist areas are getting like vail and aspen….the lift attendants have to live 40 miles away.

I wonder if it has something to do with all the out of staters willing to buy land and homes for grossly inflated prices and making it impossible for young families to find inexpensive homes?

[John Mercier]

Maybe...
But I think that we have been pressing for sometime in NH to get less children in schools and more of the 55 and over (near retiree/retiree) community.

We just achieved our goals without thinking about the longer term consequences too much.

Not anything that we can really do about the residency of who is purchasing the homes... that is a market function.

Still a lot of room to build in our town.

[tis]

Originally Posted by swnoel

I wonder if it has something to do with all the out of staters willing to buy land and homes for grossly inflated prices and making it impossible for young families to find inexpensive homes?

You know I am amazed at the young families that CAN afford to buy on the lake!

[John Mercier]

They must be waiting tables at one heck of a swanky restaurant.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by tis

You know I am amazed at the young families that CAN afford to buy on the lake!

I'm am also! I know a few friends of my children, in their 30's and early 40's, who have bought second homes up here recently. And I know of many other that are currently looking to buy.