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05-14-2022, 02:12 PM | #1 |
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No Wake
I’m amazed (guess I shouldn’t be) at how many boats I see flaunting “No Wake” zones this early in the season. Today, going into no wake zone west of The Hole In The Wall I see 2 boats now up and plowing. I’m Orion for them to slow down and, apparently, I’m invisible because they look right thru me and keep on trucking.
I guess boneheads don’t die or fade away. They multiply! Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app |
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05-14-2022, 02:53 PM | #2 |
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More and more people out there who don’t know what they’re doing.
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05-14-2022, 05:41 PM | #3 |
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It's Only Gonna Get Worse
Yup, the Cap'n Boneheads will be out in force this summer...assuming they can afford the fuel.
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05-15-2022, 06:06 AM | #4 |
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New no wake zone
Outside of Glendale. No one is paying attention. Even the island residents and local fishermen. Going to get interesting!
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05-15-2022, 07:28 AM | #5 |
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Yesterday I was surprised to see a patrol boat near Stonedam Island with two officers fishing.
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05-15-2022, 01:03 PM | #6 |
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05-15-2022, 01:19 PM | #7 |
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Often, when one state has a good idea and it has been implemented for awhile, other states follow suit. NH has had the 150' boat to boat rule for many years. As far as I know, it doesn't exist in 49 other states, and there is no push to copy. Hundredss of our 960 lakes are not routinely patrolled by MP, so the 150' rule doesn't apply there so much. MP will stop you when you come too close to them, but rarely when two other boats approach each other. Obviously, NWZ and related definitions are a continuing source of disagreement on this Forum. Is there a better way to deal with boats passing too close at speed? Is it really a problem? Only in NH but nowhere else? Be interesting to hear from those who do some boating in other states.
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05-15-2022, 01:59 PM | #8 |
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''Q. What is the speed limit for boating on lakes?
A. On lakes and ponds that allow for the use of motorized boats, vessels are not to exceed a speed of 5mph within the “Shoreline Safety Zone,” defined as the portion of the surface area of public waters within 200 feet of the shoreline. A "no-wake speed" is also required within 200 feet of marked swim areas and other vessels, including canoes and kayaks.'' https://dec.vermont.gov/watershed/la...c-waters-rules |
05-15-2022, 02:04 PM | #9 |
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''Operating at an excessive speed considering weather conditions, boat traffic, and other hazards. For inland waters, operating at a speed greater than 45 mph is considered negligent operation.''
''Operating at greater than headway speed (6 mph or less) within 150 feet of a swimmer, waterskier, mooring area, marina, boat launch, or when the operator's vision is obscured in any way.'' https://www.mass.gov/service-details...ng-law-summary It takes a while... but it seems that the surrounding States are going toward the same restrictions. Most probably because the minority of the users that violate the rules often look for other outlets. So a problem that doesn't exist in an area, slowly becomes a problem... and then the rule gets adopted. |
05-15-2022, 06:06 PM | #10 | |
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05-15-2022, 06:15 PM | #11 | |
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VI. "Headway speed" means the slowest speed that a boat can be operated and maintain steerage way. VIII. "No wake area" means an area where a boat is to be operated only at headway speed. Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app |
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05-15-2022, 06:18 PM | #12 |
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The “North Carolina General Statute 75A-14.1 Lake Norman No-Wake Law”.
This law states as follows: “It is unlawful to operate a vessel at greater than no-wake speed within 50 yards of a vessel launching area, bridge, dock, pier, marina, vessel storage structure, or vessel service area on the waters of Lake Norman.” “No-Wake speed” means idle speed or slow speed creating no appreciable wake. Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app |
05-15-2022, 06:24 PM | #13 |
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State of Washington
“Chapter 12.10 NO-WAKE ZONE 12.10.010 Definitions. “Speed control area” means that portion of the jurisdictional waters of the town within 300 feet of the end of the docks and marked by speed control buoys. “Wake” means any visible trail of turbulence that produces white water at the bow or stern left in the water by a watercraft or vessel. [Ord. 365 § 1, 2008]” I think the idea that NH is the only state in the country with no wake or safe passage laws can safely be called fake news. Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app |
05-15-2022, 07:56 PM | #14 | |
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In Florida it is much different. Boats will routinely overtake you and pass 20 or 30 feet away. After spending most of my time on Winnipesaukee that is sometimes shocking. I have been thinking of putting a rear view mirror on the boat just so I am not surprised when it happens. The safety factor is one aspect, because the boat passing has no idea if you will be turning or changing course at all. There is not a lot of time to react when two boats are that close. The second issue is the wake and spray from the passing boat. I often wonder it the boat operator going by gives that any thought at all. I think to do that to another boat is rude, but since it is done all the time in Florida it is just something you learn to accept. Boating is very different when you get off the lake. |
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05-15-2022, 09:49 PM | #15 | |
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I had a guy pass my family and I in my 20' bow rider with his 30'+ center console in a narrow channel. He was about twenty feet abeam of us running at the worst possible angle as he was climbing up on plane. I am pretty sure he needed a distress flare suppository but that gear was stowed. |
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05-16-2022, 05:43 AM | #16 |
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USCG Safe passage rule
https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navR...n%20Rule%2028.
This should cover all 50 states. However states create their own rules clouding safe passage judgement among boaters. Why can't we just enforce rule 18 and another important Rule 20 "rules of the road". https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/D...d%20necessary. Enforce these rules and all should be fine!
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05-16-2022, 06:26 AM | #17 |
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Maybe. Two officers in the boat. One alternated between fishing and using binocs to scout other boats. I think they were scouting for violators. The boat was unmarked. Later they stopped an over crowded Whaler near Stonedam. They also seemed to spend a lot of time monitoring Sally's Gut...From a distance. Maybe placating the resident curmudgeon there.
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05-16-2022, 10:26 AM | #18 | |
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05-16-2022, 11:06 AM | #19 |
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A "no-wake speed" is also required within 200 feet of marked swim areas and other vessels, including canoes and kayaks.
Pretty sure that Vermont's ''other vessels'' includes boat-to-boat. |
05-16-2022, 05:16 PM | #20 | |
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05-17-2022, 10:15 AM | #21 | |
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https://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums...highlight=wake |
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05-18-2022, 05:00 PM | #23 |
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Ignoring no wake zones is clearly a problem, what I cant tell is if some boaters only think its there to buffer other boaters from waves causing them a potential loss of control, so they ignore it when there are no there are no pother boats, or do they know its also intended to protect property and just dont care???
As for the150' rule, I follow it because its the law, but in my mind its excessive and promotes incompetent boaters feeling comfortable on a busy lake, rather than inexperienced boaters building up their operation skills. As stated previously in this thread; in other places you will have other boats passing by (in either direction) with as little as 20' - 30' feet of separation! I think 50' is a good reasonable number for any reasonably capable boater, but that just my opinion. We now live in world of the nanny state of adjust and regulate to lowest possible skill set, and also the loudest voice, and there is no place for common sense or reasonable expectations and standards. So we will all have to learn to live with the loss of what was reasonable and accept the land of laws we have allowed to take over, where every aspect of life is regulated and taxed and monitored by someone. Sure glad I was able to see the world actually work in the 1960s and 70s so that I have a reality check on the media and political and other nonsense we all get barraged with every day. Not the world I grew up in, and NOT better! |
05-18-2022, 05:46 PM | #24 |
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50 feet is much too close to canoes and kayaks. I think a lot of people can't estimate 50 or 150 feet. By the time they slow down approaching a canoe or kayak, they've already caused waves that can upset a small craft. I try to avoid this by not paddling where there are motor boats and paddling defensively. I also carry an air horn.
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05-18-2022, 06:04 PM | #25 | |
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Sorry I was referring to boats, as in power boats. 150' is probably a good number for sail boats, but may not even be enough for canoes and kayaks. Sorry I should have been more clear. We are on the same page for this, you should never be in a position to need an air horn due to a power boat coming too close, thats unthinkable if it was intentional. Unfortunately there will always be the possibility of odd cases where if you are paddling a canoe or kayak, that you could become hidden from view of a power boat and there could be a close encounter, so I do understand the logic of having a horn. ATB |
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05-18-2022, 06:33 PM | #26 | |
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Far too many people of ''ill character'' that cannot be given the opportunity to be problematic. We've clearly gone to boating licenses and restrictions on those operators that are too young to be licensed. We've made small moves toward non-residents having higher registration costs... much like other off-road recreational activities... and I suspect that power boaters will take the brunt of the latest economic situation. |
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05-18-2022, 07:30 PM | #27 | |
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Boating licenses do virtually nothing as no one has to demonstrative their actual ability to operate the boat, its just a education certificate, and even the proctored component is worthless as they accept licenses from other states proctored or not. Meaningful boater safety only comes with experience. Anything else is superficial. Not sure how the economy or other comments about character or "We aren't going to go that way..." quite fit in, but for the moment I'll simply assume they are meaningful to others. |
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05-18-2022, 07:38 PM | #28 |
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I can't agree more!! When I was taking the license course way back with it was actually in a class room, there was a sea captain that operated out Seabrook (if I remember correctly). The MP teaching had us go outside an walk 150' from the steps in front of the school we were at. He had measured before the class. The Sea Captain was 30ft at best, not exaggerating!!! He then argued that where he was doesn't need to obey the 150' rule because it was salt water/river inlet. The MP asked for his boat name and then said "well I'll make sure I let my friends know and they can pull you over and you can tell them that too and then they will give you your ticket".
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05-18-2022, 08:43 PM | #29 | |
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The same goes for the 150' rule. Unless they are passing within a 150' buoy it's next to impossible to prove they were actually within 150' and anyone could go to court and contest and win both those cases. |
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05-18-2022, 08:55 PM | #30 | |
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The further may be... we need more MP... so the cost of boating registrations must rise to offset the cost of more MP, higher fuel and equipment prices, etc. Residents, that can vote, will not want higher registration costs... and one of the few places to look is non-residents using reciprocity. Historically, this is how snowmobiling moved from several open states to having registration in each state be the requiem. Now... if everyone was behaving gracefully... not much that anyone can complain about. |
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05-18-2022, 09:48 PM | #31 | |
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Even if gas hits $10/gal and registration is $1000 I dont think we will see a significant change in behavior, as the troublesome types see to endure and the people that I share standards with tend to give up and move on. We will see,,, |
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05-19-2022, 10:13 PM | #32 |
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Quite plausible.
It seems our political system favors raising registrations and adding further regulation to offset problems rather than just placing heavy fines and penalties on the act at the get-go and nipping the problems early. |
05-20-2022, 06:19 PM | #33 |
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I Use Boat Lengths
I try to gauge distance by the number of boat lengths, in this case multiples of my boat's length (20 feet). I find it easier to guesstimate 150 feet (7-1/2 boat lengths). A couple times I borrowed a rangefinder to find out how close I came to guesstimating distance between my boat and another boat, a dock, a buoy, a shoreline, or some other object. I think worst case I was off by about 30 feet at 150 feet (I guessed 120 feet). Conditions at the time threw off my guess, but better I underestimate the distance rather than the other way around. Generally I was with 15 feet out to about 200 feet. After that I my error expanded quickly.
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05-20-2022, 11:02 PM | #34 | |
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Going in and out of various public docks, I was taught to use a fixture on shore, e.g. a boat house, as my reference. Usually, it was more like 300-400 feet. No problem, and we needed the extra time to determine which dock to head for in, say, Meredith or Wolfeboro. Watch. For the most part the larger the boat the farther out they slow down or accelerate going out. The smaller the boat, the more likely they are to try to scoot past others to get to the dock, violating the boat to shore safe passage as well as boat to boat. I'd love to have a dockmaster who would refuse these guys dockage and tell them to go out in the bay and start over: "You're number 12, and I'm watching". I'd rather see this than saddle MP with it, and I think it might be more effective without tickets, etc. Those guys bother me more than close passage in more open waters. |
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05-21-2022, 07:53 AM | #35 |
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Descant, then you would have to pay for docking to pay the harbormaster.
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05-21-2022, 08:46 AM | #36 |
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No sense adding to the Police, Dockmaster, or Marine Patrol duties.
How about just a Social Worker to counsel them on their docking habits and tell them to try harder next time! Last edited by TiltonBB; 05-23-2022 at 06:22 AM. |
05-21-2022, 08:57 AM | #37 |
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Tis: We have volunteers in Glendale. Works just fine, and the PD backs them up with a substation at the docks. Wolfeboro PD monitors the docks for extended overtime parking. Wouldn't take much to extend their activity a little. Taxpayers who are willing to pay for public docks should want to have them well operated to maximize benefit to merchants and residents alike.
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05-22-2022, 11:53 AM | #38 |
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You Just Need The Right Volunteer
Find a couple of surly curmudgeons with nothing better to do. It lets them put the "young whippersnappers" in their place, gets people unwilling to take any guff from the Cap'n Boneheads in place, and provides better control of the no wake and docking situations.
Last edited by Weekend Pundit; 05-24-2022 at 08:06 PM. Reason: Add some clarification! |
05-22-2022, 12:44 PM | #39 | |
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I haven't been around most... especially in recent years... but more docking traffic at Meredith seems to clash with the way Route 3 goes between the docks and most of the merchants. While the Weirs had Route 3 further from the waterfront, but is - at least according to reports and what I see being purchased - in a refurbish mode. |
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05-22-2022, 02:08 PM | #40 |
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Exactly
Exactly right. I bet they'd even buy their own whistle and clipboard. "We're gonna take names and kick ass." Gunnery Sergeant Walker. June 10, 1970 NAS Pensacola. LOL
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05-22-2022, 09:43 PM | #41 | |
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As of a few years ago, they were paid employees, not volunteers. Perhaps that has changed. The only volunteers I saw were on weekends questioning people launching their boats about where it had been, checking for invasive species. Sent from my iPad using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app
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05-23-2022, 10:51 AM | #42 |
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You're right, there's a mix. The Lake Hosts are joint project between NHLakes and DES. Some paid, some volunteers. As far back as the mid 60's the Town of Gilford PD had an officer on duty (Bert Shaughnessy). The point is, it is easily within possibility to have someone manage these "impossible" issues.
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05-23-2022, 11:28 AM | #43 |
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Nwz??
I had my first experience in the new nwz saturday ... coming from Mt. View over to Glendale, I slowed down to headway speed and was promptly passed rapidly from behind by two boats ( one on either side ). Oh well...
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05-23-2022, 03:25 PM | #44 |
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All weekend! Boaters ignore the NWZ. Same as the NWZ between Eagle and Governors. Guess they think MP is only seasonal.
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05-23-2022, 10:30 PM | #45 |
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05-24-2022, 04:55 AM | #46 |
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MP is not the same since the SP took over. I am very disappointed.
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05-24-2022, 05:44 AM | #47 |
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On the flip side of that coin...many years ago we were renting a slip at Fays, and one day I was coming in with the pontoon. I was pulled over just before I got to the mooring field there by MP, who told me " one of your bow numbers is faded...go to Fays and get a new number...NOW!" The curious onlookers at the marina had a good laugh after I told them what I'd done wrong! I also remember being stopped a few times for " equipment checks".
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05-24-2022, 11:56 AM | #48 |
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Brand spanking new no wake zone out of glendale
OMG, I cant believe the signage at this NEW NO WAKE Zone !!
Shame on the Marine Patrol !!! You need binoculars at 50 feet to read the NO Wake on a look a like lighted buoy like marker. You have no idea where the zone begins or ends ? What kind of signage is this.. a brand NEW no wake zone that's not on any of the charts yet.. and they put a sign you couldn't read unless you where 20ft away from and is way out of position. What Happen to the big NO WAKE buoy and signs of the past? I can see everyone not seeing that buoy and going through at full speed like past seasons as a shortcut down the lake to Alton. The buoy on that side isn't even near the middle at all, its way off to the shore on the right, where no one comes from.. |
05-24-2022, 08:04 PM | #49 |
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Buoys? What Buoys?
I launched my boat at Glendale early yesterday evening (6:30PM) and neither I or my son saw one of the new NWZ buoys until we were on top of it. (I took a slight 'detour' around Locke's Island before heading into Smith Cove to dock my boat. So sue me.)
I have to agree that they need to be better placed, i.e. more visible. Otherwise a lot of boaters will unknowingly violate No Wake. I'd hate to think they'll be ticketed because of the poor marking of the NWZ. |
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05-28-2022, 06:51 PM | #50 |
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Went through that area today. Agreed, the buoy on the southeast side is just one along Lock Island, they need a second one on the land side. So really not sure where it starts coming from the broads, the two on the Northwest side are clear and makes sense.
Hopefully they will fix that up soon. |
06-24-2022, 08:24 PM | #51 | |
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No wake --Other Side of the Lake
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06-25-2022, 08:19 AM | #52 |
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Nwz - back in the day
I got into boating on Winni in 2001. Kory Keenan sold me
My first and current boat. I was fortunate as I had him as my first teacher on proper operation. I can remember people who had property by NWZ when an operator was in violation the old hand held air horn getting blasted and The coaching from the shoreline. It stuck with me since , today when I am in a NWZ and see someone violating this simple boating rule, I hit the horn on the boat and me and my passengers remind the violators is No Wake ! It’s my way of Paying it forward 😄. Yes they have the plastic safe boater certification (maybe), and we all know MP’s can’t be everywhere. Have a great safe weekend on the water and enjoy using your boat horn as needed☺️ Former USN EWSW E5 1987 |
06-25-2022, 09:38 AM | #53 |
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To Dad207
I would buy the loudest air horn that I could find and blast them with a very long shot. Save your voice.
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06-25-2022, 10:21 AM | #54 |
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other than Weirs Channel
... it seems none of the no wake zones see much/any enforcement. Yet they keep making more no wake zones.
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06-25-2022, 11:02 AM | #55 | |
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06-25-2022, 12:17 PM | #56 |
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06-26-2022, 07:46 PM | #57 |
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During COVID,I heard (from instructor during an in person boating license class in Tuftonboro) that 30,000 boating licenses were granted.
That seems crazy high, but who knows. It was online for nearly 2 years. |
06-26-2022, 08:34 PM | #58 | |
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Recall that, while we want safety, we don't want enforcement to be so onerous that we scare away tourist $$ and general enjoyment by locals, on all lakes, not just Winnipesaukee. |
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06-27-2022, 06:26 AM | #59 |
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Now... if everyone was behaving gracefully... not much that anyone can complain about.[/QUOTE]
Haha this is funny, people have become accustomed to complaining about EVERYTHING, for some of you its like breathing. |
06-27-2022, 06:33 AM | #60 | |
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Two hours later on the way back we followed a boat going through at normal speed. It seems that it should be marked better and it is difficult to determine where it ends, at least on the south side. It is going to take a long time to educate people who have been going through that area for years that it is now No Wake. I hope that, for this year, they are just informing people and not ticketing them. That positive interaction with Marine Patrol will go a long way for public relations. |
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06-27-2022, 07:13 AM | #61 | |
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Agreed
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I was told marine patrol did not want to hinder navigation by putting it in the channel. To me that makes no sense as it is the start of the no wake zone and the marker is meant to slow boaters down… Dan
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06-27-2022, 10:58 AM | #62 |
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Enforcement
I used to interact frequently with MP when Dave Barrett was Director of Safety Services. The plan then was always to educate when there was a new rule before handing out tickets. I believe Capt. Dunleavy has the same sense of direction. Although they have merged MP into State Police, I think the phrase "safety services" still applies. The CO's for Fish and Game seem to operate with a similar philosophy. They all do a good job.
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06-27-2022, 11:58 AM | #63 |
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Tim retired.
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06-27-2022, 12:16 PM | #64 | |
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Dan
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06-27-2022, 03:27 PM | #65 |
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06-27-2022, 03:29 PM | #66 |
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People violating the no-wake zones is nothing new... It has been getting worse every year, for many years.... In my mind it has less to do with education... and more to do with the attitude of the new generation of boaters....
Gen X was bad enough the Millannials, have the attitude that the only thing that matters is themselves, and they do what they want when the want... Things like no-wake zones simply don't apply to them.... Neither does manners when waiting at the docks...
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06-27-2022, 04:21 PM | #67 |
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... and don't get me started about those Boomers!
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06-27-2022, 05:34 PM | #68 |
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Boomers are dying off... so the percentage of boaters that will be GenX or Millennial will increase over the next decade.
This is part of what ''Woke'' actually means. It is a change in political, social, and economic power that occurs when one dominate generation is overtaken by another. |
06-27-2022, 05:42 PM | #69 | |
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....keeping " urban decay " out of photos for nearly a year. |
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06-27-2022, 10:26 PM | #70 |
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06-28-2022, 12:24 AM | #71 |
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I went to school with Tim.
The last I saw of him he was riding on his lawnmower cutting his yard. |
06-28-2022, 03:12 AM | #72 |
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Sure...after correcting you publicly!
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....keeping " urban decay " out of photos for nearly a year. |
06-28-2022, 06:02 PM | #73 |
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I didn't do it to be mean.
I just keep track of old school mates and what they are currently up to. |
07-02-2022, 06:17 AM | #74 |
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New Glendale No Wake Zone
Is a joke. It doesn't cover the area that is/was the identified "problem". The 40 footers come out of Fay's....and get on plane at the no wake marker. They drive by south of Locke's putting up 5 footers that roll into Locke's and slam the exposed docks and boats.
One of the landowners was patrolling the new zone on her jetski telling everyone it is no wake at Pig Island. Seems like poor use of "LAKELIFE" time if it is spent as auxiliary marine patrol. Lose your mind or change location? The only way to rectify the "problem" would have been to extend the the NWZ out to the red marker east of Glendale off Locke's. Then you would upset the sailboat and yacht owners in a hurry to get where they are going. Except for Moultonboro Bay everything is fairly easy access from Glendale. When a person is relaxing .... enjoying quality "LAKELIFE" time I'm not sure what's the rush? We probably need a "LAKELIFE" manual, it would sell like hotcakes and everyone would know how to live their "best" lives at least while in NH. |
07-05-2022, 05:14 PM | #75 |
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Let's hope we don't get to this point!
The short version: The Charlotte County Sheriff’s Office said that Fair confessed to firing the gun after he was arrested. Deputies said Fair referred to the shot as a ‘warning shot’ to scare the boaters into slowing down. The full story: https://www.winknews.com/2022/07/05/...ters-in-canal/ |
07-06-2022, 03:11 PM | #76 | |
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07-06-2022, 05:41 PM | #77 | |
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He should be arrested for criminal endangerment immediately, placed in prison for a determined amount of time, all his firearms should be confiscated and he should never be allowed to own a firearm again! Dan
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07-06-2022, 06:23 PM | #78 |
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Agreed
Totally agree, Dan.
Road rage has increased over the years and now extending over to boating. Egad!!! Dave
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07-06-2022, 07:15 PM | #79 |
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On two occasions I was tempted to throw my sub-sandwich, from Lakeside Deli, at boats that I had to avoid in NWZ's because they were on-plane and "appeared to not see me".
One was at the half-eaten point, and the other had 1/3 to go. I suppose it would have been assault.
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07-07-2022, 06:45 AM | #80 | |
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07-07-2022, 07:09 AM | #81 |
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07-07-2022, 08:20 AM | #82 |
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A long time ago I asked marine patrol if I could shoot water balloons at NWZ violators to make them slow. “Nope, it would be considered assault. Long stream squirt gun? Nope! Paintballs? Nope! Potatoes from a potato gun? NOTHING!”
It was fun to think about anyway! Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app |
07-07-2022, 08:26 AM | #83 | |
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07-07-2022, 08:42 AM | #84 | |
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07-07-2022, 09:52 AM | #85 | |
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07-07-2022, 10:40 AM | #86 |
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Sleuth mode is a requirement of retaliation
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07-07-2022, 10:40 AM | #87 |
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07-07-2022, 06:07 PM | #88 | |
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07-09-2022, 09:32 AM | #89 |
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First time this season by Glendale, ok this is not good!
Coming from the west you cant tell if the no wake zone is just between the marker and land, or the space between the islands. And coming from the east, you dont even see the marker until you have already passed in front of the marine patrol facility. Is there a map on this new no wake zone that I missed??? |
07-09-2022, 12:16 PM | #90 |
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OK...So, you can't shoot a potato gun or throw a sandwich at the approaching violator because that is an assault. When would it be come a defensive action?
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07-09-2022, 12:49 PM | #91 |
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If they pull a gun... and start shooting at you.
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07-10-2022, 06:44 AM | #92 |
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Technically, they don't need to start shooting. The expansion of the "Stand Your Ground" law in NH just over a year ago added protection for people in vehicles "if they reasonably believe that that person is ABOUT to use deadly force against themselves or someone else."
That being said, it's sad to think that any "rage" incident in a car or boat or go-kart or whatever would get to that point. https://www.concordmonitor.com/New-H...using-39074803 Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk |
07-10-2022, 01:05 PM | #93 | |
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I was told that a snowmobiler could ''stand their ground'' on my land... which is not what the old statute stated in that they must stop and obey the landowners. So now... no more trails. |
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07-10-2022, 09:55 PM | #94 |
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