Docks

[tim1010]

Hello, I am from Minnesota and I am wondering what type of dock is most popular on Winnipesaukee. ie: sectonal docks, permenant, crank up, floating. thanks for your time, Tim

[Grant]

Good question -- kinda like, "How much is a cab ride?"

My completely unofficial and unscientific observation leads me to believe that the majority of docks on the Lake are still "permanent" -- being either the old-school "crib" docks, or driven posts. Then again, some of those that appear to be permanent posts are pull-outs (or hoist-outs, if you will). I see a lot of floaters, too -- some attached to permanent docks. Then there are a few rock jetties that were built. I can't imagine the environmental approvals required for those.

[Merrymeeting]

While many are legacy (mine included), my observation is that, assuming you can afford one, the best ones are the newer, crank up ones. Most new docks in our area are these ones, and if I had to get a new dock, this is the way I would go.

Modular platforms that come off easily, and a frame that cranks up/down in no time. You don't even need to get wet.

[Dog's Ear]

We are extremely happy with our Hewitt Roll a Dock. Only takes one person to put it in or take it out.

[fatlazyless]

Placing a 32gal trash can filled with water on each dock section seems to be doing its' job. My light weight aluminum dock is now one inch under water and the extra weight keeps it from articulating with the waves. (sunglassed yellow face)

[lakershaker]

We are in the process of replacing our old crib dock with a crank up seasonal. Huge improvement. Now, no more swimming in April to repair ice damage. Here is a link to a local marine construction page that shows pics of many of the typical docks on the lake. http://www.docksource.com/

[GWC...]

Noticed that RI is your Lake location and was curious as to what you do with your boat when you raise your dock in the Fall?

Also, what do you use for access in the Spring, when your dock is in the air?

[codeman671]

We are installing a new 3 finger crib dock. I like the crank up design but they are by no means cheap. I was quoted $24k for 2 fingers with a 24' walk in between. My 3 finger crib was far cheaper and alleviates the early/late season problems of docking. Even though you can crank up the aluminum docks it by no means makes them foolproof. I saw a few last year that were damaged on the broads, one being on the tip of Diamond. The ice built up along the shoreline and crushed it pretty badly in the air. If it gets damaged it is not easy to repair whereas a crib or piling dock can be fixed with simple hand tools and limited skills. Just my $0.02...

[tim1010]

Would a dock design like this one work well for people on winnipesaukee. It is compleatly removable for winter and stacks in a small pile. You never have to get wet for instal or removal. All posts are driven 12 to 18 inches into the lake bottom for a solid dock and you can tie just about any size boat you wish to it. Even 55 foot bluewaters. You can get boathouses in any size you wish from 24ft with standard height to 72 ft with 25ft height. It is all steel framework with cedar or plastic decking. I think it would work well on lake winnepesaukee. What do you think?

[codeman671]

Its a nice looking setup but I would be concerned with having the posts in so shallow. A post that is 12-18" probably would not be deep enough to be left in all year long if that is what this setup calls for. I think that the ice flow would pop them out. Without the frame of the dock holding them in if the ice froze around them and shifted slightly they would come loose or bend. If you had to reset them every year it seems like a lot of work.

The NH DES rules as far as dock dimensions and canopies would probably cut down on some of the appeal. NH is pretty particular about specs, I can point you to the manual for it if you wish. They limit length, width and the size of canopies.

[tim1010]

This dock system was designed for Minnesota where they do not allow permanent docks or crank up docks to be installed anymore. to many snowmobile's hit them in the winter. It was designed in 1948 and is made to be removed every fall and installed every spring. As far as the canopies go I imagine there is a regulation on the sides. in Wisconsin all of the canopies have to stop at the corners so they don't come down the sides.

[DRH]

The type and size of docks allowed on Winnipesaukee is strictly regulated by the NH DES Wetlands Bureau. With 75' or more of lake frontage, the state allows construction of a 6' wide by 30' long permanent dock or a 6' wide by 40' seasonal dock. Also, if dock pilings are able to be driven into the lake bottom to a satisfactory depth at your location, I do not believe you are allowed to construct a crib dock. Exceptions may be made based on a "demonstrated need".

The installation of a new dock requires a Wetlands Bureau permit, and the addition of a canopy such as the ones shown in your photos requires a permit as well.

I'd suggest you check out the NH DES Wetlands Bureau's web site for more information. A couple good places to start would be:

http://www.des.state.nh.us/factsheet...ands/wb-12.htm

and

http://www.des.state.nh.us/PermitGuide/

[codeman671]

DRH is correct, you are allowed 1 finger (2 slips) at 75 feet of frontage and another slip for every 75 feet after. Thus at 150' you are allowed to go u-shaped. They do not like to give out crib permits unless you can provide depth probe measurements demonstrating the difficulty of setting pilings. I believe that you need to have the pilings go 36-48" down depending on the type of bottom. Canopies must be seasonal and taken down for at least 5 months per year. There is a size contraint for them as well.

[tim1010]

our rules are much different here. I am sure with permits and the the right amount of lake front this would work well there. It has become the most popular dock on Lake Minnetonka MN. I would say that 95% of the docks are of this type and there are about 6500 homes on the lake.

[lakershaker]

We are lucky that our neighbors are very friendly and have a crib dock. When we make that first and last trip of the season, we dock there and run nextdoor to drop our dock. If that were not an option, you could use the old reliable "going to shore without a dock" procedure (slowly coasting into shore with the anchor dragging behind, cinching it tight right before you get too close, then run to the front and jump off the bow onto shore to tie your dockline to a tree). Obviously, that is not for long-term docking, just until your dock is ready...

[Nero Gatto]

I'd would like some opinions on this subject as well.

I recently purchased waterfront property with an existing dock that is shaky at best. I am probably going to replace it soon but I'm not sure which way to go for my circumstances, particularly after reading some varying comments in this thread.

The current dock is 20' long and is sitting on ledge. I recently watched as the guys who installed it tried to pound the pipes into the rock and got nowhere. I am on a very windy point with exposure from about 220°. I have serious doubts as to whether it will securely hold my 4,000 lb boat while I'm away for extended periods. As a new seasonal dock would extend an additional 20', I'm guessing I would not have the same problem with ledge out at the end. I'm planning on diving the area to check out the bottom as soon as the water warms up a bit.

The people I bought from had the good sense to apply for a breakwater and a permanent dock before I bought. I recently got approval for the project but I'm undecided if that's the way to go. I know it would most likely be the strongest alternative but but it has some drawbacks as well. The initial cost would be a 4X that of a new aluminum seasonal, I don't know what's involved in the upkeep and repair, and I'm not too sure if I want to deal with bubblers every winter after reading a thread on that subject. On top of all that my neighbor is appealing my permit because they are afraid that the breakwater would somehow negatively effect their property. I don't think it would effect them at all but since I have no direct experience I couldn't honestly say for sure. For that matter I don't know what the effect would be on my property either.

As you can see, I'm torn. I know what they say about opinions but I would love to hear some anyway.

[ITD]

Nero,

If it were me and I had the money I would go for the breakwater and permanent dock. I assume the breakwater would somewhat shelter your boat. I have a bubbler on my dock and it works great. Contrary to that thread I think you are referring to I would not skimp in this area should you decide to use a bubbler (sorry Less). In my case I've only had minor damage once in the 4 years I've been there, the previous owners claimed they never had a problem in 12 years. Sorry to hear about the neighbors, some people just don't like their little worlds to change, they would probably have a problem with extending your current dock also.

This summer I'm going to put together a system so I can see and control the bubbler and my ice dam tapes remotely. Should save on electricity.
Good luck.

[DRH]

I agree with ITD on all points, Nero. Perhaps "Just Sold" could comment on the effect a breakwater would have on a neighbor's property, but I doubt it would have any effect. Unless you need an "abutter waiver" from that neighbor to install a breakwater (or a new dock, for that matter) closer to your mutual property line than is allowed under the reg. (20' I believe), I wouldn't think their appeal would prevail. (I'm not a lawyer, however! )

If the cost of a breakwater would be more than you want to spend, I'd at least go with a permanent dock. In a windy location with a 4,000 lb boat, I would feel much more confident knowing I had my boat secured to a permanent dock, especially since you indicated you could be away for extended periods. A well-built permanent dock requires fairly little upkeep. We had our dock built 11 years ago and it's in excellent condition with virtually no upkeep other than an annual checking of the nuts and bolts that hold the dock posts to the outside stringers.

We run an ice-eater in the winter. It's on both a thermostat and a timer, so 1) it only runs when the air temp. is below freezing and 2) it only runs during the hours I set the timer for. We figure the ice-eater adds about $50 to our electrical bill in each of Jan. and Feb, and maybe $25 in Mar. The ice-eater provides sufficient open water to allow the ice to expand and contract, and rise and fall, without damaging the dock. In our 11 years here we only had ice damage once, three years ago when the ice started moving around while it was still about 12" thick and a north wind blew a large section of it in against the end of the dock. That pushed the two end pilings in a bit, but the repair was not expensive.

[codeman671]

Nero,

DES does not readily give out break waters without having ample information proving need so it sounds to me like it would be the way to go. I can't imagine that it would obstruct a neighbors view or pose a nuisance. What do they have for a docking setup? I am personally going permanent, the crankups are a neat design but I have heard that you can get some bounce and sway in rough water, but they can be anchored down to avoid this. Shop your quotes hard on the permanent dock and breakwater, I had a pretty serious fluctuation in quotes between contractors.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Shop your quotes hard on the permanent dock and breakwater, I had a pretty serious fluctuation in quotes between contractors.

This is good advice.

According to a neighbor who has one, one consideration is that breakwaters will settle into the lake. Winter ice will shift them around and knock off some of the rocks. Either way, they're not maintenance-free.

Another is that the breakwater will build up sand mostly on the side that's exposed to the prevailing wind (which is NW).

If your neighbors are upwind to your proposed breakwater, they should be concerned: They will lose (or have to periodically dredge) clearance under their boat. Wave action around breakwaters tend to erode both your neighbors' shorelines.

This means that towards the end of each season, when the lake level goes down "naturally", there will be less depth in which your boat can clear the bottom. If you get monster wakes in your locale, and the bottom is a rock ledge, you'll definitely need a breakwater to prevent damage to the bottom of your boat.

Monster wakes caused me to inquire about a breakwater. The contractor told me I'd have to remove my existing permanent dock, which I am unwilling to do. (So I'm stuck).

[Just Sold]

Thanks DRH for the confidence in my expreiences.

In response to Nero Gatto's questions:
I have only heard of a neighbors view being reduced by an abutters construction of say a second floor addition. That would be addressed in a Planning or Zoning Board of Adjustment hearing or meeting. I have never heard of a dock or breakwater causing a reduced view to an abutter. It could be they are concerned with a change in water flow along the shoreline. From my limited understanding of breakwater construction the breakwater must be a specific minimum distance from shore so as to not cause the water to stop its natural flow along the shoreline. A side benifit can be a sandy bottom will appear over time as the breakwater does act a filter and causes sand to be deposited on the inside of the dock area.

What is their actual complaint in the appeal? Knowing that would help you and all of us here understand the situation better and comment more effectively. Also what part of the lake are you on that caused the previous owner to apply for a breakwater permit?

My personal experience with a breakwater is they are needed in specific locations and since you have received approval from the state for a breakwater I would install it. On an extremely rough day on the lake a breakwater can be your saving grace when docking and in the protection of your 4000LB boat. The cost may be high but the potential loss of your boat or even worse an injury or death make a breakwaters protection invaluable.

I spent a few summers at Rattlesnake on the broads side and without the breakwater we had I would not have been able to land at the dock. With the smaller boats (14' and then 17') I had many interesting docking experiences which would have been far more dangerous without the breakwater to protect us. We also had a larger heavy hull boat and it too would have been in trouble without the breakwater. The dock itself only experienced the tie post being damaged over the years. Today as I pass the property the dock and breakwater are still in good condition. I attribute that to quality workmanship so I would really check out who you hire for your work.

[Nero Gatto]

Wow, great info by all, thanks! I think I'm convinced that the breakwater is the way to go, assuming I can scratch the up pennies somewhere. I have gotten several quotes and there was a substantial difference in price.

I just learned that my abutter's first appeal has been rejected, so I'm less concerned about the legal side of it now. I would still like to be a good neighbor and alleviate their concerns if I can. They tell me they are concerned about what effect the structure will have on the wave and wind action and what the long term effect will be on their shore front. They are upwind (NW of me). Maybe I'm naive but I can't imagine how a sloped stone structure 3' off the water could effect the wind we get out there. My understanding is that since it will be constructed from irregular shaped rocks the waves will be dissipated. I doubt they will even be able to see the breakwater from their dock so I don't think view obstruction is a concern. The shore all around me is very rocky.

Acres per Second, I am surprised to hear your opinion about buildup on the NW side though. The permit application does state that "..some minor sedimentation will occur in the protected basin leeward of the breakwater...", but there is no sand to be found anywhere near me, just clean rock ledge wherever I can see, so I even find that hard to imagine. There is a 6' gap in the plan to account for flow (I assume that is a requirement) so I figured that would take care of any buildup on the upwind side, particularly since the structure would curve to the South.

Thanks for the opinions and experiences. Keep'em coming.

[ApS]

With the weekend weather looking gloomy and windy, I did a quick boating survey of forty breakwaters near me at noon today. Of the 40, 10 were of the "gap" variety, allowing a space between shore and the breakwater.

Instead of a six-foot gap, however, none exceeded three feet and one "gap" had been filled in (with small rocks) by the homeowner. (Not counted, and would have been #41).

Old homes that I knew from past years were of the non-gap design, so DES has likely instituted this change to the "gap" variety in recent years.

As to there not being any sand, my own dock area has been filled by sand originating from a neighbor's driveway that was washed away in a July 6th 2000 storm -- at 4:30PM. Sand fill from new construction near me has washed over a silt fence and also entered the lake -- upwind of me, and will be here soon enough.

But there is natural sand and soil continuously moving into the lake too -- and the prevailing winds move it. Sand is created even at the peaks of New Hampshire mountains and can be seen in pockets at the summit. Millennia of lightning strikes and ice fractures is supposed to account for it.

Here's more than anyone would want to know on the movement of sand along shorelines: http://www3.csc.noaa.gov/beachnouris...o/shorelin.htm

Another consideration in your breakwater design is to allow some space under your boat for up-and-down water movement. Large, long, waves will still produce motion in the protected area. Season-end depths may end up inadequate too.

If the bottom there is a rock ledge and you want to stay with a big boat, it may be possible to dynamite the ledge, which would simultaneously provide a supply of large boulders for the breakwater. (That was done for the Walgreen's boathouse and moat, and I think everybody around Winnipesaukee knew exactly when that was done).

I'd be curious as to the rate(s) and range of your estimates.

[SAMIAM]

Tim if you have a section of your shore that has 2' or 3' of depth.....so can make your life easy.I ran a 30' dock/deck parallel to the shore with the posts fixed about 6' above the water line.Nothing is touching the water,so so don't need a wetlands permit or any of usual permits except one to build a deck. You don't need a circulator,a lift or anything else.It stays in all year round. You have to make sure that it is anchored well (mine has cement footings and pinned to a couple of boulders.
(sigh)...I so miss pulling out my dock every fall

[fatlazyless]

After lining up three strong guys and then having them not show up for maybe five years rnning, I said that's it, I'll do it myself. Now, all by my lonely self, I install and remove a 30' ,not-so-light,aluminum dock and boat lift w/ a winch roped to a convenient tree and some ten foot planks. AM I THE GREATEST, or WHAT? HUT, HUT, HUT!
Hey, no one ever accused me of being the brightest bulb on the tree, but it works for me, hmmmm.(sunglassed yellow face)

[Drummer Boy]

We have a very large section of someone's dock that drifted over to the Quimby Point Boat Club ( The set of docks between the docks behind Long Bay and South Down Shores ) in Paugus Bay. It is about 16 feet long, constructed with pressure treated wood and is the temporary type that is secured with steel pipes. It looks to be fairly new construction.

If the winds changed and this moved offshore, this would be a significant safety hazard to any boaters. We have secured it to our docks and notified Marine Patrol who indicated that they will come and retrieve it tomorrow.

If this belongs to you, reply to this post with your email address and I will give you a more detailed location.

[Onshore]

Unfortunately I have some not so good news for Samiam. Any structure constructed over the water or in the bank of a surface water requires a wetlands impact permit per RSA 482-A, even if the structure does not actually touch the water. You might want to look into getting an after the fact approval from the DES Wetlands Bureau for whatever you constructed on your shoreline.

Tim1010 - Please don't take the advice about building in the bank or cantilevering a structure over the water unless you have a wetlands permit first.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

After lining up three strong guys and then having them not show up for maybe five years rnning, I said that's it, I'll do it myself. Now, all by my lonely self, I install and remove a 30' ,not-so-light,aluminum dock and boat lift w/ a winch roped to a convenient tree and some ten foot planks. AM I THE GREATEST, or WHAT? HUT, HUT, HUT!
Hey, no one ever accused me of being the brightest bulb on the tree, but it works for me, hmmmm.(sunglassed yellow face)

Hey FLL,how did you get a tree to grow 30 feet offshore so you could winch the docks back in the water in spring? SS

[Nero Gatto]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

If the bottom there is a rock ledge and you want to stay with a big boat, it may be possible to dynamite the ledge, which would simultaneously provide a supply of large boulders for the breakwater.

Fortunately, water depth is not an issue. I don't want to even think about the red tape involved in a project like that.

We also have lots of large rocks leftover from the blasting that was done to build the original house back in the sixties. The original owners actually tried to build a breakwater out of them on their own but the ice has done quite a number on that structure over the years.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

I ran a 30' dock/deck parallel to the shore with the posts fixed about 6' above the water line.Nothing is touching the water,so so don't need a wetlands permit or any of usual permits except one to build a deck. You don't need a circulator, a lift or anything else. It stays in all year round. You have to make sure that it is anchored well (mine has cement footings and pinned to a couple of boulders.
(sigh)...I so miss pulling out my dock every fall

Pretty neat design, though you don't state how old it is.

The DES regulations that shore things draws your attention to...may be newer than your "structure".

Photographs showing your dock's earliest years could assist in a possible painless "grandfathering".

.