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Old 02-26-2017, 07:59 AM   #1
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Default Re cap of a very sad day

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...JpI/story.html
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Old 02-26-2017, 08:17 AM   #2
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Default .... give the Tyr aquatic flotation belt a try?

Say hey...check out the 'Tyr aquatic flotation belt'...... price $17-dollars.... at swimoutlet.com ....black and blue color....the blue belt can do double duty, holding ice self-rescue picks, whistle, cell phone, water bottle, flashlight, even a small hand gun....worn under your parka.

For extra flotation, get two $17 belts and combine the total twelve black float cubes all onto one belt....or ten....or eight...whatever works for you....depends how you set it up.

Is that a good, el cheapo, light weight, comfortable, easy-to-wear, durable, usefull flotation idea or what, plus it can be used in summer, fall, winter, or spring!

Unlike a pfd, it centers your balance buoyancy, so it is good to go for swimming the breast stroke, side stroke, overhand crawl, and backstroke....plus it is light weight and comfy to wear.
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Old 02-26-2017, 08:22 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatlazyless View Post
Say hey...check out the 'Tyr aquatic flotation belt'...... price $17-dollars....black and blue color....the blue belt can do double duty, holding ice self-rescue picks, whistle, cell phone, water bottle, flashlight, even a small hand gun....worn under your parka.

For extra flotation, get two $17 belts and combine the total twelve black float cubes all onto one belt....or ten....or eight...whatever works for you....depends how you set it up.

Is that a good, el cheapo, light weight, comfortable, easy-to-wear, durable, usefull flotation idea or what!
Better still, stay off the lake.
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Old 02-26-2017, 08:41 AM   #4
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Looking at the ice on a frozen lake or river, there is no way to tell how thick or safe it is.....it's always a bit of an unknown... quickly plunging into cold water with a small amount of cold water getting into your lungs and ears.....is a fast drowning.

With the seventeen dollar, (16.94 & shipping - swimoutlet.com) Tyr float belt, you get a second chance, plus it can be used for swimming in the summer.

Today's Feb 26 Boston Globe has a front page article "Death on Derby Day at Lake Winnipesaukee" 'The morning of Feb 11 was the beginning of the worst day in the lakes history.' It is an unusually lengthy article, starts on page 1, and then takes up entirety of pages 12, and 13, and includes two photos, and one map; have yet to read it but just actually caughed up $4.50 to buy the paper....so that makes it a very special newspaper article......LAKE WINNIPESAUKEE.....the largest Boston Globe article ever, ever written about the lake in the last 122-years....or something!
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Old 02-26-2017, 08:54 AM   #5
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So your encouraging people to take a chance on the ice with a toy rather than a genuine "Personal Flotation Device" designed and engineered to keep you afloat in an upright position under a wide variety of situations to get your rocks of in this thread by posting one of your outrageous get it cheap at someplace replies.

Your a jackass.

Previous post cleverly edited 3 hours and 19 minutes later to disguise the original post that promoted my original reply that you see above.

Last edited by Top-Water; 02-26-2017 at 01:04 PM. Reason: Pointing out edit that tries to alter history
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Old 02-26-2017, 09:06 AM   #6
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Is way better to be wearing a Tyr float belt than having no flotation, and a pfd which goes around the shoulders, neck, upper body probably does not get used so much because it is too bulky.

If you want to wear a pfd, then go ahead and wear a pfd....but it seems like a float belt is easier to wear while riding a snowmobile.....it's a choice....
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Old 02-26-2017, 09:17 AM   #7
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(Sincerely) Thanks for the interesting article.

Hopefully some meaningful reflection about this day will take place from this post forward.
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Old 02-26-2017, 10:11 AM   #8
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What is really sad about this is never before has there been so much information readily available about the overall conditions of the ice out there. It almost seems as if the number of these accidents should be on the decline.

I would just make a suggestion - this forum is a very good source of information as many of us post good and updated information especially when it comes to ice conditions, why not exploit that? Think the F&G or even the Derby organizers be interested in partnering with this web site to provide links to the forum thread that is ongoing every year monitoring the ice situation? It's hard to imagine that both accidents in these articles could have easily been avoided had the people involved known the ice or lack thereof was so well documented and no doubt they would not have made the decision to traverse those areas had that been widely known.

What we don't know is how many DID NOT venture out into these areas based on reading and seeing the information posted here. This information is invaluable so why not try to get that into as many hands as possible. I'm sure all who have an ability to, myself included, are more than happy to provide this information whenever possible as a public service to all who bother to read it.
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Old 02-26-2017, 03:32 PM   #9
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If people really want to venture out on the ice the best bet would be to ask a local! Someone like me who lives, boats and ice fishes here. I watch and take note as the ice forms so I myself know where to and where NOT to go. To many people just hop in the lake and see ice and think all is good.

When was the last time you saw a snowmobile' r on Winni with a full blown PFD?
Not me....
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Old 02-27-2017, 06:39 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAXUM View Post
What is really sad about this is never before has there been so much information readily available about the overall conditions of the ice out there. It almost seems as if the number of these accidents should be on the decline.

I would just make a suggestion - this forum is a very good source of information as many of us post good and updated information especially when it comes to ice conditions, why not exploit that? Think the F&G or even the Derby organizers be interested in partnering with this web site to provide links to the forum thread that is ongoing every year monitoring the ice situation? It's hard to imagine that both accidents in these articles could have easily been avoided had the people involved known the ice or lack thereof was so well documented and no doubt they would not have made the decision to traverse those areas had that been widely known.

What we don't know is how many DID NOT venture out into these areas based on reading and seeing the information posted here. This information is invaluable so why not try to get that into as many hands as possible. I'm sure all who have an ability to, myself included, are more than happy to provide this information whenever possible as a public service to all who bother to read it.

Excellent suggestion. A network of frequent reports generated by volunteers from various areas of the Lake are invaluable for all venturing out on the ice.

Hopefully, a member of the Governor's Office will take notice.

Count me in.

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Old 02-27-2017, 07:25 AM   #11
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What I don't understand is why is Tuftonboro the only town with an airboat? Why doesn't Fish and Game have an airboat? They had enough money to buy Downing's, they should be able to afford an airboat. And now they say they need more officers. I think they need an airboat.
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Old 02-27-2017, 07:56 AM   #12
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Here's another way to make an el cheapo pfd, for about 5-dollars or less; take a foam flotation noodle ...... you know, one of those summer water toys.....a colorful foam noodle.....can be 2", 3" or 5" diameter x about 48" length....whatever works for you......and trim off one end so it's the correct length to be worn as a somewhat tight waist belt......and thread a sturdy line down through the center hole that runs the length of the noodle.....and tie it off.....making it into a foam noodle waist belt.

If you end up in the lake, chances are the noodle will rise up under your arm pits, under your arms, and do a good positive flotation to keep you up top the water.

Reading the Boston Globe article, it says something like the F & G officers watched through their binoculars from a distance, as the 15 year old-snowmobiler repeatedly struggled getting himself up out of the water and onto the thin ice, with the ice repeatedly giving way, and dumping him back into the water, until he disappeared below the surface.

So, would a home-made, el cheapo noodle pfd have helped him or what?

In addition, a usable set of ice rescue picks can be made using two six inch steel nails and an old shoe lace .....the nails cost about 60-cents each....plus attach a good loud whistle to the ice picks shoe lace....all very useful for getting out of the water and up onto the ice, and getting rescued, or doing a self-rescue.

If you really want to plan ahead, maybe pack a high quality p,b & j sandwich, Teddy super crunch - Smuckers red raspberry jam-dark pumperknickle bread into a water tight freezer bag.....and you are good to go eat'n your sandwich......and toot'n on the loud whistle while you await a rescue.....way out there on the ice ....... helloooooooo NH F&G airboat ....... such a great looking airboat......nice to see you!

You know that a home made noodle pfd could maybe be worn either on the outside of a parka, or underneath a parka......maybe use a blue noodle to go with a grey parka or so....for color coordination.....and either hang the shoelace-nails ice picks around your neck, or tied loosely to the noodle belt.......that seems like it would probably work very good, plus a foam noodle could provide a good soft cushion under your chest, between you and the ice surface, as you claw your way across the thin ice using the ice nail picks...... toward stronger ice. Noodles are probably surprisingly strong, and durable, when used like this with a good quality 3/8" line threaded down through its' center hole, to make it a noodle pfd belt.
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Old 02-27-2017, 08:23 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatlazyless View Post
Here's another way to make an el cheapo pfd, for about 5-dollars or less; take a foam flotation noodle ...... you know, one of those summer water toys.....a colorful foam noodle.....can be 2", 3" or 5" diameter x about 48" length....whatever works for you......and trim off one end so it's the correct length to be worn as a somewhat tight waist belt......and thread a sturdy line down through the center hole that runs the length of the noodle.....and tie it off.....making it into a foam noodle waist belt.

If you end up in the lake, chances are the noodle will rise up under your arm pits, under your arms, and do a good positive flotation to keep you up top the water.

Reading the Boston Globe article, it says something like the F & G officers watched through their binoculars from a distance, as the 15 year old-snowmobiler repeatedly struggled getting himself up out of the water and onto the thin ice, with the ice repeatedly giving way, and dumping him back into the water, until he disappeared below the surface.

So, would a home-made, el cheapo noodle pfd have helped him or what?

In addition, a usable set of ice rescue picks can be made using two six inch steel nails and an old shoe lace .....the nails cost about 60-cents each....plus attach a good loud whistle to the ice picks shoe lace....all very useful for getting out of the water and up onto the ice, and getting rescued, or doing a self-rescue.

If you really want to plan ahead, maybe pack a high quality p,b & j sandwich, Teddy Bear super crunch-Smuckers red rasberry jam-dark pumperknickle bread into a water tight freezer bag.....and you are good to go eat'n your sandwich......and toot'n on the loud whistle while you await a rescue.....way out there on the ice ....... helloooooooo NH F&G airboat ....... such a great looking airboat......nice to see you!
Try to remember as you make a fool of yourself that a family is devastated by the loss of there son, not to mention the first responders who had to helplessly watch by and the folks that had to recover the body.

Not funny.
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Old 02-27-2017, 09:10 AM   #14
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I do not post often, but I do read new posts daily. I can not imagine the father of the 15yr old boy, reading this thread.
Fat-N-Lazy is a BAFOON with no compassion for anybody. If anyone knows his real name and address, I would like to discuss this with him personally.
Peace My Friends, MOXIE
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Old 02-27-2017, 09:18 AM   #15
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From wikipedia

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal, on-topic discussion,[3] often for the troll's amusement.

Sadly he has accomplished his objective, just as some meaningful discussion was beginning to come forward with solutions to help prevent something like this from happening again.


MAXUM really has a great idea it just needs to be discussed. Something I take out of this is if the community comes up with some viable solutions that make the lake safer and educate people and reverse the trend of tragedies taking place, it might discourage Concord from overreacting and making new laws and rules that just shut the lake down from all winter activities ...... because its an easy feel good fix.

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Old 02-27-2017, 10:42 AM   #16
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I don't see any legislation coming about that will curb use of the lake in the winter time. That serves no purpose and will put a huge damper on the area during a time of the year where most businesses really need that extra revenue from people that are attracted in the off season. I think there would be a huge uproar if it was even suggested. I would however like to see if there is any movement towards either the towns or F&G in getting themselves a little better equipped to handle these situations. Even that is useless if the time it takes to react to a call is not immediate. They can't be everywhere all the time to bail people out when they do something ill advised. So long as folks venture into the great outdoors especially in the winter time, if they are not prepared it could very easily cost them their lives. Can't lay that at the feet of the first responders those guys do the best they can with what they got and I for one am thankful they are there even if they cannot be miracle workers every time an accident occurs.

That said one forum member pointed out to me in a private conversation the potential legal ramifications Don, the site owner, could face via lawsuit based on information that would be gleaned from information posted here. It is a pretty valid concern however my thought is a simple legal discloser stating any information posted is provided as a courtesy and basically throw in the typical language saying the site and posting members are not in any way responsible for the accuracy of the data posted. Ultimately the responsibly lies with anyone that heads out on the ice. I do see a significant value in making it known that this is a good source for people to use at their own risk. Again I point out we do not know how many actually did watch the ice in thread and acted based on that which very well could have saved lives.

FLL - I know you like to stir the pot at times, seem obsessed with inexpensive solutions to everything, but honestly making the suggestions you have is beyond irresponsible. I sincerely hope nobody takes these seriously.
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Old 02-27-2017, 03:04 PM   #17
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Quote:
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What I don't understand is why is Tuftonboro the only town with an airboat? Why doesn't Fish and Game have an airboat? They had enough money to buy Downing's, they should be able to afford an airboat. And now they say they need more officers. I think they need an airboat.
The article notes that NH Fish and Game has an airboat but it was in Meredith and the Tuftonboro boat could respond more quickly.
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Old 02-27-2017, 03:36 PM   #18
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The article notes that NH Fish and Game has an airboat but it was in Meredith and the Tuftonboro boat could respond more quickly.
Thank you. I missed that somehow.
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Old 02-27-2017, 03:40 PM   #19
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That said one forum member pointed out to me in a private conversation the potential legal ramifications Don, the site owner, could face via lawsuit based on information that would be gleaned from information posted here.
Thanks for your concern but the person who posts the information is responsible, not me.
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Immunity for Online Publishers Under the Communications Decency Act - Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act grants interactive online services of all types, including blogs, forums, and listservs, broad immunity from tort liability so long as the information at issue is provided by a third party.
If that were not the case it would be nearly impossible to provide an interactive forum or bulletin board.
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Old 02-27-2017, 04:59 PM   #20
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Default More government oversight...

Is not, and should not be sought after as, the answer.

I so miss those days when a 6 yr. old kid could walk home from school with Child Protective Services not getting involved. My parents taught me what not to do. Most of the time I did it anyway, but with the knowledge of the danger(s) involved.

Today, we want our kids to "get out more" and leave the electronics behind. Would it be parental negligence, today, if your kid went out without a cell phone and wandered more than two blocks away?

Tragedies are a consequence of life, not always someone's error for lack of control.
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Old 02-27-2017, 05:17 PM   #21
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Should FLL be banned???...Yes or no??..Or at the very least be put in "Time out" for at the very least 90 days??
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Old 02-28-2017, 04:57 AM   #22
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I like the idea in Moultonboro, where they took their radar sign, put in the middle of town warning of thin ice (it should be changed to "dangerous" now) is an excellent use. More, cheaper (paper) signs should be out in all the popular entry/hangout spots to the lake. I don't regularly stop sledding to check texts or email or go on the net, only at my final destination, but I would see signs.

As far as the Weirs channel, time for a camera there, monitored by LPD/BCSO/F&G or in the summer by the MP.

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Old 02-28-2017, 08:06 AM   #23
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As far as the Weirs channel, time for a camera there, monitored by LPD/BCSO/F&G or in the summer by the MP. It has been the holy grail for illegal activities for too long.
Really? I don't see it, and that is a pretty broad brush to paint an entire area of the lake. Please elaborate with specific examples.
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Old 02-28-2017, 08:12 AM   #24
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FLL, you need to think long and hard about what you post.
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Old 02-28-2017, 08:27 AM   #25
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Should FLL be banned???...Yes or no??..Or at the very least be put in "Time out" for at the very least 90 days??
You can "ban" people yourself, just add them to your ignore list.
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Old 02-28-2017, 08:31 AM   #26
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Really? I don't see it, and that is a pretty broad brush to paint an entire area of the lake. Please elaborate with specific examples.
I have edited my post, apparently, it is being taken the wrong way by some.


As far as FLL, I don't see much hope... LOL
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Old 02-28-2017, 12:20 PM   #27
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Do people take / wear life jackets when travelling across ice?
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Old 02-28-2017, 12:43 PM   #28
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Do people take / wear life jackets when travelling across ice?
That is a very good question ...... it's totally up to the individual.....no mention of any pfd's being worn was mentioned in the Boston Globe article......and considering that three males, ages 62, 67, and 15, all drowned in two separate incidents on Derby Day, Saturday, February 11..... it certainly seems that no flotation pfd's were worn.

USE YOUR NOODLE!

What I suggest is to use a 3"x 48" foam noodle with a 3/8" line threaded through the center hole, trimmed to correct waist belt length, probably worn on the outside of a winter coat as an el cheapo life saving, floation belt device that costs maybe 5-dollars ...... plus 2-six inch nails attached to a single light line or old shoe string used for clawing your way up and out of the water, and back to the safety of the ice.

It seems like maybe snowmobilers do not use regular pfd's because they surround one's shoulders and neck and can be too bulky and too warm to wear while riding.

So, I suggest using a home made noodle pfd belt, worn on the outside of your parka, with the 6" nails on a string loosely attached for safety on the ice. It is probably best to be wearing it before crashing through the ice as opposed to just having it with you but not wearing it.

Look.....none of the three dead drowned guys probably had any flotation.....so it sure seems like you should USE YOUR NOODLE!
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Old 02-28-2017, 01:00 PM   #29
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I thought about this while reading the article. And being a boater, I've never tried a snowmobile. I liken it to riding a jet ski. I dont see much difference. I guess there are flotation suits, I googled it a bit. I have a mustang bomber that I keep on the boat. Along with more than enough PFD's.

I mean if you are going to be over deep water, why not have some sort of flotation device at the ready?
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Old 02-28-2017, 02:52 PM   #30
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If you think about it, when you fall into cold water what's the biggest thing you have to worry about sinking or freezing to death?

If I had my choice between flotation and something that would protect me from hypothermia I'd take a wetsuit.

Speaking of that every year I am out in the water within a week of ice out putting in my dock, 3 hours in the ice cold water with a 7MM wetsuit really isn't all that bad. No it's certainly not Bermuda but sure as hell is more comfy than t-shirt, shorts and a PFD.
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Old 02-28-2017, 03:22 PM   #31
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If you think about it, when you fall into cold water what's the biggest thing you have to worry about sinking or freezing to death?

If I had my choice between flotation and something that would protect me from hypothermia I'd take a wetsuit.

Speaking of that every year I am out in the water within a week of ice out putting in my dock, 3 hours in the ice cold water with a 7MM wetsuit really isn't all that bad. No it's certainly not Bermuda but sure as hell is more comfy than t-shirt, shorts and a PFD.
Agreed, but bring your ice picks- the biggest issue is kicking/ pulling yourself out of the water onto the ice!
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Old 02-28-2017, 09:08 PM   #32
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If you think about it, when you fall into cold water what's the biggest thing you have to worry about sinking or freezing to death?
If you can float you have a chance of saving yourself.

Some cold water PFD information here.
http://www.coldwatersafety.org/PFDsCanAndCant.html

http://www.go2marine.com/category/12...kets-pfds.html

I wonder if any of the snowmobile clothing manufactures have ever thought of making (fashionable/sport-related) clothing designed to float in the event of an emergency. I spent close to thousand dollars last fall on extreme cold water fishing clothes for myself and my son. Regretfully in light of recent events I never gave it a second thought about if it would keep me afloat.

I thought that an inflatable life jacket that uses (CO2) would be a possible comfortable alternative if you wanted an extra measure of safety out on the ice. Surprisingly they are not recommended because of the way the (CO2) inflates them in cold weather.

Somewhat noteworthy is that in Pennsylvania from November 1st through April 30th while underway or at anchor on boats less than 16 feet in length or any canoe or kayak, cold weather life jacket wear is mandatory. (I realize this is about boats) but it's very much related to cold water safety.

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Old 03-01-2017, 09:42 AM   #33
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Default ...... the giant 5" diameter noodle?

Last summer, the Walmart in Gilford had some very big foam noodles, about 5" diameter x 44" length, in green, blue, or red, for about $5.29 each ..... and they were good quality with high density foam .... and a 1/2" hole running down through the center for the entire 44" length.

A 5" diameter noodle will probably provide a lot more flotation than a 3" noodle ..... the formula to figure the volume of a cylinder is V = pie x radius x length ....so a 5" diameter has maybe three times the foam flotation volume of a 3" diameter.

Using ice picks makes a huge difference for getting out of the icy water, and up onto the ice.....plus they require much less effort and less energy than relying on wet gloves, hands, and wet, slippery ice so ice picks are important, and two 5", or 6" nails or small spikes work very good.

As long as you don't care too much that you may resemble the Michelin Man, here's a method. Use the 5" noodle on the outside of your coat, shortened to fit tight like a belt, as a flotation belt with a sturdy line threaded inside the center hole, and place the two spikes directly into the 5" foam belt, one on the right, one on the left, close to your hands, and ready to access.

What's the difference between the five inch noodle and the three inch noodle? It has a lot more flotation, and holds a person higher up in the water, making it easier to claw your way onto the ice.

Wearing a flotation device probably totally increases your chance of survival, because a person can survive for up to one hour in icy cold water before their body succumbs to the cold. Your hands and arms are usable for maybe 10-15 minutes before your fingers get too cold to use. Using ice picks really helps a lot....and a 5" foam noodle secured around your waist, that will rise up, under your armpits makes for excellent flotation....while you gather up your energy for the big effort(s) to climb out of the water and onto the ice......maybe repeatedly when the thin ice breaks under your weight.

What's good about this is that it is low priced, easy to wear....you just wiggle into it from either your feet up to your waist, or from your arms and head down to your waist..... and it probably works real good.(?)

So, who wants to volunteer crashing their snowmobile through the thin ice, into deep water, to see how great it works?
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Old 03-01-2017, 11:03 AM   #34
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Having read the posts on this subject I get sickened that someone is attempting to make jokes about the loss of life. As a parent I feel for that young mans family and the tragic loss of life as well as the families of the others. To be making jokes about bargains on noodles why not be a little more caring and sensitive for the loss.This again is JMHO
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Old 03-01-2017, 11:20 AM   #35
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Last summer, the Walmart in Gilford had some very big foam noodles, about 5" diameter x 44" length, in green, blue, or red, for about $5.29 each ..... and they were good quality with high density foam .... and a 1/2" hole running down through the center for the entire 44" length.

A 5" diameter noodle will probably provide a lot more flotation than a 3" noodle ..... the formula to figure the volume of a cylinder is V = pie x radius x length ....so a 5" diameter has maybe three times the foam flotation volume of a 3" diameter.

Using ice picks makes a huge difference for getting out of the icy water, and up onto the ice.....plus they require much less effort and less energy than relying on wet gloves, hands, and wet, slippery ice so ice picks are important, and two 5", or 6" nails or small spikes work very good.

As long as you don't care too much that you may resemble the Michelin Man, here's a method. Use the 5" noodle on the outside of your coat, shortened to fit tight like a belt, as a flotation belt with a sturdy line threaded inside the center hole, and place the two spikes directly into the 5" foam belt, one on the right, one on the left, close to your hands, and ready to access.

What's the difference between the five inch noodle and the three inch noodle? It has a lot more flotation, and holds a person higher up in the water, making it easier to claw your way onto the ice.

Wearing a flotation device probably totally increases your chance of survival, because a person can survive for up to one hour in icy cold water before their body succumbs to the cold. Your hands and arms are usable for maybe 10-15 minutes before your fingers get too cold to use. Using ice picks really helps a lot....and a 5" foam noodle secured around your waist, that will rise up, under your armpits makes for excellent flotation....while you gather up your energy for the big effort(s) to climb out of the water and onto the ice......maybe repeatedly when the thin ice breaks under your weight.

What's good about this is that it is low priced, easy to wear....you just wiggle into it from either your feet up to your waist, or from your arms and head down to your waist..... and it probably works real good.(?)

So, who wants to volunteer crashing their snowmobile through the thin ice, into deep water, to see how great it works?
Did Walmart open a marijuana dispensary?
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Old 03-01-2017, 12:06 PM   #36
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Since most of the time I ride across ice to get to my destination, I've had this jacket for years. Floatation is built in.

https://mustangsurvival.com//profess...nal&country=25

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Old 03-01-2017, 02:12 PM   #37
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If you can float you have a chance of saving yourself.

Some cold water PFD information here.
http://www.coldwatersafety.org/PFDsCanAndCant.html

http://www.go2marine.com/category/12...kets-pfds.html

I wonder if any of the snowmobile clothing manufactures have ever thought of making (fashionable/sport-related) clothing designed to float in the event of an emergency. I spent close to thousand dollars last fall on extreme cold water fishing clothes for myself and my son. Regretfully in light of recent events I never gave it a second thought about if it would keep me afloat.

I thought that an inflatable life jacket that uses (CO2) would be a possible comfortable alternative if you wanted an extra measure of safety out on the ice. Surprisingly they are not recommended because of the way the (CO2) inflates them in cold weather.

Somewhat noteworthy is that in Pennsylvania from November 1st through April 30th while underway or at anchor on boats less than 16 feet in length or any canoe or kayak, cold weather life jacket wear is mandatory. (I realize this is about boats) but it's very much related to cold water safety.
Interesting tid bit - when I was in the Navy working the flight deck of an aircraft carrier we had to wear vests while on deck, they had a number of features to them but essentially they had a built in inflatable bladder that had a lanyard fired CO2 cartridge to fill it should it be needed. Interestingly enough we were supposed to be replacing those on a regular basis, I seem to recall every 6 months.... I replaced mine far more often. Every time I did I'd test fire the old cartridge to see if it actually worked. The failure rate was pretty high, I'd estimate about 30% of the time nada. Thankfully they had a built in manual air tube you could blow it up if needed, that assumes you are still conscience after falling 50+ feet into the water. Thank God for the safety nets that lined the flight deck, you'd be more likely to fall into one of those than hit the water!

I would never use something like this myself... but at the same time it would not make any sense for us to be out there on deck working with a full on bulky PFD either it'd just get in the way. I gotta believe that they have a better and more reliable inflation method by now... but that was only 20 years ago so who knows.
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Old 03-01-2017, 02:42 PM   #38
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Did Walmart open a marijuana dispensary?
Don't encourage him next thing you know we'll hear all about the medicinal qualities of rag weed which is waaaay cheaper than marijuana, plentiful, probably can be easily grown around your house and double as a million dollar hedge and can be smoked through a 50 cent 5" foot long noodle.

Obviously we are dealing with a person that is quite a few French fries short of a $1.99 happy meal. Heck I don't even think the burger, drink, or free toy were included.
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Old 03-01-2017, 02:57 PM   #39
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Don't encourage him next thing you know we'll hear all about the medicinal qualities of rag weed which is waaaay cheaper than marijuana, plentiful, probably can be easily grown around your house and double as a million dollar hedge and can be smoked through a 50 cent 5" foot long noodle.

Obviously we are dealing with a person that is quite a few French fries short of a $1.99 happy meal. Heck I don't even think the burger, drink, or free toy were included.
Yes, you are absolutely correct. And all the while, doing it while wearing a flotation device!
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Old 03-01-2017, 03:02 PM   #40
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Interesting tid bit - when I was in the Navy working the flight deck of an aircraft carrier we had to wear vests while on deck, they had a number of features to them but essentially they had a built in inflatable bladder that had a lanyard fired CO2 cartridge to fill it should it be needed. Interestingly enough we were supposed to be replacing those on a regular basis, I seem to recall every 6 months.... I replaced mine far more often. Every time I did I'd test fire the old cartridge to see if it actually worked. The failure rate was pretty high, I'd estimate about 30% of the time nada. Thankfully they had a built in manual air tube you could blow it up if needed, that assumes you are still conscience after falling 50+ feet into the water. Thank God for the safety nets that lined the flight deck, you'd be more likely to fall into one of those than hit the water!
We use the lanyard fired CO2 inflated vests. Point of fact, if you don't screw the cartridge into the firing mechanism they are guaranteed not to work. Always check to make sure the cartridge is screwed in when you take vests out of a storage locker or borrow one from another boat.

Top-Water, I didn't see any information pertaining to the shortcomings of CO2 inflated vests in coldwater conditions in the two links you posted. Did I overlook that information or is there another place that you would recommend I go to for info?

Thanks.
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Old 03-01-2017, 08:48 PM   #41
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Since most of the time I ride across ice to get to my destination, I've had this jacket for years. Floatation is built in.

https://mustangsurvival.com//profess...nal&country=25

BT
I also wear the mustang survival jacket when snowmobiling both over land and over frozen lakes. It is very warm better than snowmobile jacket. It is so well insulated the wind does not penetrate the material. I have tested it in the summer and it keeps my body afloat. I also have a PFD with line attached to snowmobile for the purpose to help someone or myself. Plus of course Spikes attached over my shoulders to use to pull myself up over the ice. But before I ever go out on the ice I only go where trucks have been driven.
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Old 03-01-2017, 09:08 PM   #42
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Top-Water, I didn't see any information pertaining to the shortcomings of CO2 inflated vests in coldwater conditions in the two links you posted. Did I overlook that information or is there another place that you would recommend I go to for info?

Thanks.
I seen the information about the cold water inflation problems at a couple of different places. One that stuck out was this kayaking forum in PA.

http://www.kayak-anglers.com/forum/t...d-cold-weather

Also mentioned here with little more science in the answer. A little ways down the page. I was not aware that the cold (could/would) affect the inflation that much.

http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/082000c.htm

So What's the Catch?
3) Cold weather adversely affects the operation of these PFDs. While the CO2 cartridge will fully inflate the vest most of the year, in extremely cold temperatures the same amount of gas will not expand to the same volume, reducing the vest’s buoyancy.

Sorry should have maybe included these links in the earlier post.
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Old 03-02-2017, 08:05 AM   #43
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For $18.96, marked down from 28.00, the swimoutlet.com has an adult USCG pfd, made by Sporti, in orange/yellow, that has extra large arm-shoulder cut-outs for active use. Also has two similar smaller pfd's for kids, $16.55, and youth, $18.55.

These look like some good quality, usable pfd's, at a LOW price. Closes with a zipper, plus three strap clips.

Seems like these could be good for snowmobiling, sailing small sailboats, canoes, and maybe kayaks.

https://www.swimoutlet.com/p/sporti-...9/?color=11950


.....hmmmm....does it really have a zipper in the front?


For just $12.99, amazon.com has a somewhat similar Onyx pfd in orange/black for adults, but with smaller arm cut-outs, so probably not as useful for easy arm movement.
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:18 AM   #44
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I seen the information about the cold water inflation problems at a couple of different places. One that stuck out was this kayaking forum in PA.

http://www.kayak-anglers.com/forum/t...d-cold-weather

Also mentioned here with little more science in the answer. A little ways down the page. I was not aware that the cold (could/would) affect the inflation that much.

http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/082000c.htm

So What's the Catch?
3) Cold weather adversely affects the operation of these PFDs. While the CO2 cartridge will fully inflate the vest most of the year, in extremely cold temperatures the same amount of gas will not expand to the same volume, reducing the vestís buoyancy.

Sorry should have maybe included these links in the earlier post.
Oh that's right, the ideal gas law... I will refrain from getting all geeky and wondering about the corresponding difference in the density of the colder water and whether that is enough to maintain equivalent buoyancy...

Thanks for the info. Putting some serious thought into whether or not the safety gear we assign folks here is what it should be...
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:45 AM   #45
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Shore Things... Don't go all "Deflategate" on us!

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Old 03-02-2017, 11:19 AM   #46
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Now that's a good one Woodsy!
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Old 03-02-2017, 12:34 PM   #47
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Oh that's right, the ideal gas law... I will refrain from getting all geeky and wondering about the corresponding difference in the density of the colder water and whether that is enough to maintain equivalent buoyancy...
But geeks don't mind getting geeky. The icy water will be more dense at 32 F than at, say, 70 F, so that cold water would impart more buoyancy. It's like being more able to float in salt water. But for fresh water, the density is greater at 32 F vs 70 F, but only by 1/4 of 1%, of no real consequence.

But for a gas inflating a vest, the gas law does make a difference in volume of the vest and thus of buoyant force provided. At low pressure, the volume is about proportional to absolute temperature. For temps in Fahrenheit, add 459.67 to get Rankine, and take the ratio of absolute temperatures. So the gas volume at 32 F is only 87% that at 70 F (winter vs summer temps, approx.). However, CO2 is a bit weird, so an equation of state is more appropriate. Here is a calculator for density of CO2: http://www.energy.psu.edu/tools/CO2-EOS/, from which the density ratio, winter vs summer, is 0.927.

But with a CO2 cartridge, things get more geeky. Under pressure, there is liquid CO2 in the cartridge, with a gaseous CO2 vapor space. When released, the gas expands into the vest, but the pressure in the cartridge drops, causing vaporization of liquid CO2. The heat of vaporization comes largely from the CO2 itself, resulting in a large drop in temperature, and perhaps in some solid CO2 (dry ice) flakes. Eventually, the cold CO2 gas that has expanded into the vest will pick up heat from the cold water and expand more, but initially the inflation will be substantially less than at thermal equilibrium.
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Old 03-02-2017, 01:27 PM   #48
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But geeks don't mind getting geeky. The icy water will be more dense at 32 F than at, say, 70 F, so that cold water would impart more buoyancy. It's like being more able to float in salt water. But for fresh water, the density is greater at 32 F vs 70 F, but only by 1/4 of 1%, of no real consequence.

But for a gas inflating a vest, the gas law does make a difference in volume of the vest and thus of buoyant force provided. At low pressure, the volume is about proportional to absolute temperature. For temps in Fahrenheit, add 459.67 to get Rankine, and take the ratio of absolute temperatures. So the gas volume at 32 F is only 87% that at 70 F (winter vs summer temps, approx.). However, CO2 is a bit weird, so an equation of state is more appropriate. Here is a calculator for density of CO2: http://www.energy.psu.edu/tools/CO2-EOS/, from which the density ratio, winter vs summer, is 0.927.

But with a CO2 cartridge, things get more geeky. Under pressure, there is liquid CO2 in the cartridge, with a gaseous CO2 vapor space. When released, the gas expands into the vest, but the pressure in the cartridge drops, causing vaporization of liquid CO2. The heat of vaporization comes largely from the CO2 itself, resulting in a large drop in temperature, and perhaps in some solid CO2 (dry ice) flakes. Eventually, the cold CO2 gas that has expanded into the vest will pick up heat from the cold water and expand more, but initially the inflation will be substantially less than at thermal equilibrium.
While water at 32 F may be more dense than water at 70 F it is actually less dense than water at 39 F (a critically important property of water). Also you want to factor in the temperature of the cartridge at time of discharge and ambient air pressure.
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Old 03-02-2017, 01:43 PM   #49
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Did Walmart open a marijuana dispensary?
....no, not at Wal-Mart, no!

What the Plymouth, NH, Wal-Mart does have are $9.94 pfd's ......Exxel x2o brand, USCG approved, made in China, in blue or red, one solid color with a small amount of black graphics.....in three sizes.....child-youth-adult.....$9.94-each.....in the store....and very similar to the 18.96 orange/yellow Sporti pfd in my link above from SwimOutlet.


....at $9.94 in the Wal-Mart store.....that seems like a super deal.....for solid red and solid blue......and very usable.....child-youth-adult.....sometimes the plain, minimalist style is the best way to go!

... how's the quality?

...who knows....but, come the year 2019....these Exxel brand pfd's could maybe be made up the north country ... north of the notches ... in Littleton, Groveton, or Berlin, NH, and sell for even less than these Chinese made $9.94-models at Wal-Mart?
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Old 03-02-2017, 01:49 PM   #50
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Pulling this thread back to its original purpose, my condolences to all of those who lost someone. I would also like to thank Almostthere for posting the link to the BG article. I have forwarded it to all of our field staff and several friends who are still too young to have a sense of their own mortality in hopes that in the future they might remember what happened and perhaps take an extra precaution or two that could save their life.
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Old 03-02-2017, 08:20 PM   #51
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Pulling this thread back to its original purpose, my condolences to all of those who lost someone. I would also like to thank Almostthere for posting the link to the BG article. I have forwarded it to all of our field staff and several friends who are still too young to have a sense of their own mortality in hopes that in the future they might remember what happened and perhaps take an extra precaution or two that could save their life.
Thanks Shore, too many distractions from the OPs meaning of this thread, to try to make others feel good about themselves and their transgressions.
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Old 03-04-2017, 11:16 AM   #52
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"An ounce of prevention, is worth a pound of cure": attributed to Benjamin Franklin, February 4, 1735, in The Pennsylvania Gazette. He was talking about fire prevention with regard to a fireplace fire in one's home.

So, the proverbial 'elephant in the room' here is that none of the three February 11-Derby Day drowning victims, three males, ages 15-62-67 was wearing flotation while snowmobiling on the frozen lake, neither a 5" diameter noodle float belt, or a pfd.

Wal-Mart has 5"-diameter x 44" long noodles in green, red and blue, sold in the summer, for 5.29, and all year around, has USCG-approved, standard pfd's in red or blue in three distinct sizes; child-youth-adult, for 9.94-each.

Do the NH F&G officers wear kevlar, bullet stopping vests? Could be that wearing a kevlar vest and a pfd at the same time is not very doable? But, wearing a kevlar vest and a 5" diameter noodle, float belt, is very doable when riding a snowmobile...... and it would set a good example for others out on the ice, when they saw the F&G officers wearing noodle float belts for ice flotation safety. Cheap to make, about six dollars for the noodle and a length of line to thread through the center hole; easy to wear over your coat; easy to put on, easy to take off, and can be used as a flotation rescue tool to be tossed to a victim, or to retrieve a victim with a line, or by hand, or to do a self-rescue for yourself. While not all noodles are particularly sturdy, these 5" diameter noodles are dense foam flotation, sturdy, and bendable into a circle float belt with a sturdy line threaded down through the center hole, and tied off with a knot, making a good fit for you.....not too tight....not too loose....but, just right.

Two 5" or 6" steel nails, or thin, aluminum, designer tent stakes (Wal-Mart), can be inserted directly into the foam belt to be used as ice rescue picks.....at the ready ..... at the time ...... worn like a belt ..... or, tossed 20' like a Frisbee.....as needed!
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Old 03-04-2017, 01:06 PM   #53
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FLL, Unfortunately no one will appreciate your brilliance until you have field tested your invention under a variety of realistic conditions and published your findings here with your usual eloquence. Please remember when setting up your test scenarios that rescue response times are frequently measured in hours...no cheating. I look forward to reading about how this works out.
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Old 03-04-2017, 01:49 PM   #54
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I'll only believe it if he tests it on himself
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Old 03-07-2017, 02:19 PM   #55
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....thanks for your support ..... and probably, I should mention that one has to trim down the 44" long x 5" diameter noodle to a length like 36", so it can be worn like a belt on the outside of your winter coat .... maybe that was obvious.

...for something like 76-cents each, Wal-Mart has these aluminum 6" tent stakes which are pretty interesting for using as ice self-rescue picks, ...

Come the summer, and one can always use the noodle and tent stakes for the lake, and the tent ...... like no kidding!
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Old 03-08-2017, 08:44 AM   #56
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FLL, please I think you've taken this thread down the wrong path long enough as there is nothing funny about the loss of life!
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:07 AM   #57
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Have not seen a snowmobile out on the lake now for weeks, until Saturday, March 18, when a lone snowmobiler, going about 25-mph showed up. As it approached Horse Island and flasher buoy #3, it suddenly made an abrupt 180-degree u-turn in the slushy snow, and reversed direction. Probably, must have got a fast heads-up seeing the small area of open water up ahead, and larger area of grey, soft, slushy looking water.

That was a surprise to see that.....I was thinking.....will he be going in for an icy, cold swim, or what?

http://www.unionleader.com/Snowmobil...ngs-for-riders ...... published March 18, 2017 .... have you read it? .... it goes into some detail on the February 11, Derby Day, triple snowmobiler drownings in frozen Lake Winnipesaukee
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:31 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatlazyless View Post
... USE YOUR NOODLE!
There is no need to use ersatz safety equipment. Even new, PFD's are cheap. $10-30 and less if you buy second hand. A 'sport vest' even provides a large amount of insulation if worn under a large jacket.
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:45 AM   #59
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er-satz: adjective, (of a product) made or used as a substitute, typically an inferior one, for something else. "ersatz coffee"

Ersatz is not a word familiar to me, so I looked it up, and while a foam noodle belt attached to a 50' x 5/16" line may be ezsatz, it could be pretty useful. Just like a rope lasso used by a cowboy to rope a steer, with a little practice, a foam noodle belt/50' line could quickly go from an ersatz, worn pfd belt to a lasso style, tossable rescue pfd line.....by twirling it above one's head like a lasso and then letting it go, out across the ice/water to a victim, lasso style........ yee-haw! Probably, the five inch diameter noodle works best because it is more rigid, and has more flotation.

The key to making it work is to thread a line down through the noodle center hole, and fashion the noodle into a wearable, circle belt, worn on the outside of a winter coat.
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Old 03-27-2017, 01:32 PM   #60
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http://www.concordmonitor.com/snowmo...y-year-8886070


from Sunday, March 27, 2017.

Have to wonder......does anyone actually wear a pfd under their winter coat when snowmobiling the lake? ..... and you can buy an adult sized USCG-approved pfd in red or blue from Walmart for $9.94, that looks to be made well enough...beats the heck out of drowning, plus can be used in a canoe or something...as well...for summer use...
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Old 03-27-2017, 01:40 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatlazyless View Post
http://www.concordmonitor.com/snowmo...y-year-8886070


from Sunday, March 27, 2017.

Have to wonder......does anyone actually wear a pfd under their winter coat when snowmobiling the lake? ..... and you can buy an adult sized USCG-approved pfd in red or blue from Walmart for $9.94, that looks to be made well enough...beats the heck out of drowning, plus can be used in a canoe or something...as well...for summer use...
Seriously? Enough with the PFD and ski belt crap already! Its getting old.

12 different posts from you in this one thread about noodles, pfds and belts is really ridiculous.

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Old 03-27-2017, 10:12 PM   #62
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codeman671, You have been reading my mind. I would like to ask the website monitor to shut down this thread. In my opinion it is showing disrespect to the boy who lost his life. As far as "fatlazyass" goes, you have made your colors crystal clear to me.
Peace My Friends, MOXIE
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