Speed Limit

[Audiofn]

We ran a radar trap for a Poker run in upstate NY. They were unable to get a read off ANY of our boats. That included one run that they asked us to go with in 30 feet of their boat. The radar was run by a certified officer and he could not make it work. So how do you measure speed on the water?

Jon

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Audiofn

"...The radar was run by a certified officer and he could not make it work. So how do you measure speed on the water...?"

AND

Originally Posted by Formula Outlaw

"...Radar guns do not work on boats so it will be up to the MP to learn how to judge speed on the water..."

Looks like we'll just have to give up on our silly polls and our silly new law.

Oh wait!

Didn't Audiofn advise this forum last season that "We couldn't measure exhaust noise?"
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...4&postcount=97

ONCE AGAIN...

Originally Posted by Formula Outlaw

"...From 91' to 96' I trailered over to "the Lake" more than 20 times. Loved boating there. I've also boated on Sebago and Moosehead in Maine..."

AND

Originally Posted by Formula Outlaw

"...You must have a "wake law" up there, enforce it..."

We've had a "wake law" in our Winnipesaukee boating handbooks for decades. Perhaps you overlooked it while reviewing our safety regulations.

[FormulaOutlaw]

It appears the longer this thread goes, the more people are responding with "education and awareness" is the key to the situation at hand.

Over in the Speed Limit Poll thread, I noticed that BearLover was getting dressed down a bit by his/her own members. (not meant to be offensive here, settle down people)

I'm only stating that more and more seem to be agreeing that speed limits are not the answer, that they are nothing more than an approach that some would use to try to remove the big bad "ceegar" boats from the Lake.

I have a novel suggestion. If you want to ban one boat, ban them all. No canoes, no sailboats, no fishboats, no bowriders, no nothing. Not even an inner tube to float around in. Ban humans from the water, not even swimming. Allow them to fish but only from shore or a dock. What is good for one should be good for all. And what is bad for one should be bad for all.
Then watch what happens to your precious property values.

Like already posted, concentrate on the issue at hand, safety on the lake. And stop demonizing others who have/post different opinions than some of you.

One more thing, I think it's really "chicken" to go into the Marine Mafia site, steal posts, post them here for no other reason than to try to discredit otherwise respectful meanngful posts here. Those of you that have done that should register at the other site and post your views there. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

[FormulaOutlaw]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

AND Looks like we'll just have to give up on our silly polls and our silly new law.

Oh wait!

Didn't Audiofn advise this forum last season that "We couldn't measure exhaust noise?"
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...4&postcount=97

ONCE AGAIN...

AND We've had a "wake law" in our Winnipesaukee boating handbooks for decades. Perhaps you overlooked it while reviewing our safety regulations.

I never posted anything about radar guns and boats. Sorry, you can't blame that one on me. I believe Jon posted that, and the fact is that it is true.

I've never even looked at your "safety regulations". If you are having that many problems up there, then obviously they are not being enforced. If you've had a "wake law" in place, then why all the complaints about wakes? Answer: it obviously is not being enforced. So instead of the idea of a speed limits, and we all know why some of you are pushing for that, concentrate on the problem at hand. You have a law on the books, it's not being enforced, why???? If that law is not being enforced, why would one think that another law would be enforced.

Some of you really need to stop a second and think about what you are posting. It does not make basic logical common sense. You have a wake law, use it. There's one major problem down.

If you're going to continue to try to make us look bad because you can't reasonably counter our concepts or posts, at least get the name right.

And while I live in Nokomis, a quaint little town as it was called, I live on the water less than five minutes from both the ICW and the Gulf. I boat between Ft. Myers and St. Petersburg. And I doubt very seriously you have anywhere near the boat traffic we do especially on holiday weekends. On a good Memorial Day weekend we can have up to five thousand boats in the waters around here. For a fifteen mile stretch of the ICW it can be stern to bow, for fifteen miles. And you think you've got congestion?

It's not my job to read/review your safety regulations up there. I only jumped in this Forum because of your attempt to regulate performance boats off a Lake that can certainly handle them, only because there is a group of people up there who do not like them. And you continually exhibit the "I don't like it so you can't do it" self centered ideology. Sorry folks, that is as wrong as wrong gets. If you don't like those boats, don't buy one. But don't demean others that do. I'm sure you would not appreciate a group of people trying to ban the type of vessel you enjoy. Live and let live. Do unto others. Some of you need to take a step back, take a deep breath, and think about that.

[CMG]

Originally Posted by Audiofn

We ran a radar trap for a Poker run in upstate NY. They were unable to get a read off ANY of our boats. That included one run that they asked us to go with in 30 feet of their boat. The radar was run by a certified officer and he could not make it work. So how do you measure speed on the water?

Jon

Boats would require a metalicl reflector visable from all sides for radar to work on sloped fiberglass surfaces. Correct me if I'M wrong but the speed would have to be estimated by the MP, tough sell when appealed. Few stationary points of reference and distance to/from objects. Again, enforce the existing safety laws.

Chris G.

[FormulaOutlaw]

And what in the world does quoting my post of trailering over to Lake Winni have to do with anything????

As far as I'm concerned there's a wake law everywhere. At least I make sure my wake does no one else harm. That's called "responsible boating".

Acres: maybe you should teach a voluntary responsible boating class and tell everyone up there about the wake law that's been on the books for decades that apparently no one knows, or cares, about, or worse yet not enforced.

Roll your eyes on that one.

[Audiofn]

Acres you are missing the point. How if they can not radar a boat will they be able to establish with any accuracy the speed of a boat? Some boats look like they are going faster when in fact they are going slower. It is not even close to estimating the speed of a car, you have no reference points to look at or anything. The cost of training the MP were the kids ussually only are around for a year anyhow would be huge. I find it interesting that I have asked all you guys questions, honest questions, and NONE of them have been answered. Just a lot of back talk like AND.... Kids have arguments like that.... We have shown facts that very few accidents involve speed. We have also shown facts that even though the number of boats on the lake have gone up, the number of accidents has gone down. You saying that there is a wake law on the books proves a point that the MP does not enforce the many laws that they already have to work with. I for one HATE huge wakes when they hit my dock, and would love to see this law enforced. It is something that is a LOT more enforcable as you can see the large wakes, and there is NO doubt that it damages the shores. However the large wakes have nothing to do with speed. Actually to have the speed limit will increase the size of most of the wake that is seen on the lake as a boat that is going as speeds over 35-45mph ussually puts off a much smaller wake, I know mine does.

You brought up the noise post to try and discredit me so I feel that I have to respond to that. It is TOTALLY true, you can not measure noise on the water accuratly. Since that is something that I do in my work I know a little something about it. When I DB a room/theater we turn off everything in the house, refridgerators, ac/heat, other tv's in the house as they will all make our readings inaccurate. These are in 30 million dollar homes with high end heating systems that are not all that loud to begin with and rooms that are super isolated from sound but we still have to go through all this effort to get the room as quite as possible. You can actually see the meter jump if some one walks in the house. We use a 5,000 dollar meter and mic. We can see the same thing however on our cheaper units. Now you are telling me that out in the open on a lake with boats and everything else you can isolate sound that well to get an accurate reading? Point two of my argument on that thread was that they were doing the readings wrong. They were taking DB readings in the river with boundry walls on either side, at a dock were noise gets amplified by the underside of the dock. Not holding the meter properly and so on. All these things are clearly against what the law says. Now they have been doing a better job as of late and we have all complied with the law. At any rate lets not get this thread off topic. I have responded to your post but the topic on this thread is speed not noise, we comply with all the noise regulations on the lake.

Jon

[JDeere]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by FormulaOutlaw

I must have missed something in "Life 101". Since when is a "thrill" a bad thing? If you have reached a point in your life that either nothing thrills you, or you have no interest in thrill, I feel very sorry for you. Thrill is a good thing, whether it is boating, or going to a good movie.

Nothing wrong thrill seeking until it infringes on other people. Your post makes it clear that you think about your first otherwise you would not have felt it necessary to take a shot at someone. If you need speed to get your thrill then by all means go out and get them but not when you put others at risk but it appears that that is not an issue to you…………..hence we need laws to make you the outlaw you wannabe.

[Audiofn]

[QUOTE=JDeere]

Nothing wrong thrill seeking until it infringes on other people. Your post makes it clear that you think about your first otherwise you would not have felt it necessary to take a shot at someone. If you need speed to get your thrill then by all means go out and get them but not when you put others at risk but it appears that that is not an issue to you…………..hence we need laws to make you the outlaw you wannabe.

This is were I think it gets touchy and the two sides have a real hard time seeing any middle ground. However the speed issue as I have said I think is a different one then noise issue, OR are you trying to figure that if a boat can not go over 45 that the loub boats will leave? Back door politics? That is sure what it feels like to me. I am still waiteing for any evidence that speed has a direct cause and effect on accidents as the evidence from the coast guard seems to indicate otherwise. Accidents from my checking around seems to be more related to Intoxication, lack of knowledge, not paying attention, and other things but NOT speed. So again were is your data that shows that those of us driving fast are the cause of all the accidents on the water?

[rickstr66]

Several of us have asked the pro speed limit crowd to post some data on speed causing accidents on Lake Winnipesaukee. None has been posted because it doesn't exsist. Alcohol and stupidity are the 2 reasons for most accidents. Last I checked you can't outlaw stupidity. These pro speed limit people are the same ones that have a house on the lake but go to every town meeting and oppose somoene else building a house on the lake, or they have a dock and protests their new neighbors dock. Once they have it, they dont want anyone else to have it.
One could argue that since Winni is such a big lake, it's the small bout that dont belong. Get rid of all the small, underpowered boats and the overcrowding will be solved. Let the small boat go use a smaller lake or pond. If your boat isnt at least 17' long and have at least 100 hp then you cant be on Winni period. Hey the more I type of this , the better it sounds!!! In reality this doesnt sound good at all. I would never want to limit anyones access to such a beautiful place. Its there for all of us to use and enjoy.

[Aubrey]

It's incredible how many people are stuck on the idea that you can't pass a law you can't enforce. That never stopped them before. The 55 and 65 mph speed limits on 93 are broken by at least 2 out of 3 cars on the road. Drive down 93 at the limit and see how many cars you pass and how many cars pass you.

And a MP officer might not be able to look at a boat and know if it's going 45 or 55. But they certainly will be able to look at a boat going 90 and tell it's breaking the law. Remember an officers estimate can be used for a speeding ticket, no radar gun is required.

I'm not in favor of a 45mph speed limit. But a 65mph limit like on 93 is OK with me. If you need to go 90 perhaps you should find a bigger body of water with less traffic.

Live Free or Die is a statement against political slavery. Not an justification for irresponsible or inconsiderate behavior.

FormulaOutlaw is not a member of the lake community. He has ridiculed this web site and the people in it. I doubt if he has contributed to the upkeep of this site. I think he should go away and stay away.

[phoenix]

well said Aubrey. I also think the real debate should be the actual speed limit not whether there should be any limit . 45 is likely too low but 90 is too high.

[Islander]

Great idea Aubrey!

65 would be fine with me.

And FormulaOutlaw should go insult children somewhere else IMHO.

[Audiofn]

Originally Posted by Aubrey

I'm not in favor of a 45mph speed limit. But a 65mph limit like on 93 is OK with me. If you need to go 90 perhaps you should find a bigger body of water with less traffic.

See for me or anyone like myself to to get "onboard" with this legislation I want to see evidence that speed limits have lowered the accident rate. I want to see that speed boats are in more accidents then smaller boats. You say this is about safty but you keep coming after only the fastest boats on the lake. The reality of it is that people with speed boats tend to have less accidents per capita then others. Let me give you an example. Joe X speed boater is running up the lake at 60mph. Sam Smith is running up the lake at the same time in the same direction parrallell and slightly in front of Joe X. Sam Smith does not look and makes a sharp turn in front of Joe X and there is a collision. Who gets blamed for the accident in the public opinion? Who's fault is it really.... I say it is Sam Smith for not taking caution before making a turn. Most of you seem to say that it is Joe X because he has a speed boat and all speed boat people should be off the lake

Some one earlier stated that they saw a speed boat go btwn them and a couple kids on a Hobie at a very high rate of speed. Well if that person was under 200 feet from the Hobie then I say that they deserved a fine and a good talking to by the MP's and even tossed off the lake for the day to think about thier stupidity. However if they are over the 200 feet then they are plenty far away to safly pass at speed.

So please show me the evidence that says that adding a speed limit will make the lake safer. Show me the evidence that the cause of all the accidents on the lake are due to anything more then Stupidity and lack of knowledge.

Oh and by the way when there was a boat that sank in the 1000 Islands, the owner died but there was one other person that we found swimming. It was ONLY speed boats that were there (10 of us) to pull the girl out of the water and to assist the Coast Guard in finding us. If it was not for Speed boats, and the fact that we are typically much more observent then most, the Girl would have died as well.

[Audiofn]

Originally Posted by Aubrey

It's incredible how many people are stuck on the idea that you can't pass a law you can't enforce. That never stopped them before. The 55 and 65 mph speed limits on 93 are broken by at least 2 out of 3 cars on the road. Drive down 93 at the limit and see how many cars you pass and how many cars pass you.

What we are saying is that the laws on the books are sufficient as they are. They protect everyone quite well. Your wake is your own responsibility, if you are on plane with in 200 feet of another boat you are pulled over. Enforce the laws that are there and they cover all the issues that you are talking about. To put a law on the books because you guys think that it will get us speed boaters to leave is unfair. As for the speed limit on the highways, well that kind of helps to make my point. Cars are built better then your fathers Model T. They can go faster safer. Try and lower the speed limit on the highways to 45 and see what you get for a response. I bet it is a lot harsher then what we are saying.

I always find it amazing that a Chris Craft can go past with open headers WOT and people will say wow. Then when a speed boat goes past with mufflers they go noisy pieces of .......

Jon

[Aubrey]

Jon

I understand your point.

But what I am saying is that 65 miles an hour is fast enough on lake Winnipesaukee. And that if you want to go faster you should go somewhere else. This is just my opinion, but quite frankly I don't care about accident statistics. This isn't just about safety.

Call it noise, call it erosion, call it my right to peacful enjoyment of the lake. Call it whatever you like, there is a limit and it has been passed.

What speed do you think is to much? If you had to pick a number what would it be?

[Outlaw]

Originally Posted by Aubrey

Jon

This isn't just about safety.

Call it noise, call it erosion, call it my right to peacful enjoyment of the lake. Call it whatever you like, there is a limit and it has been passed.

What speed do you think is to much? If you had to pick a number what would it be?

There is no speed that is too much, its all relevant to the particular boat. We already have laws on the books about wakes (which are known to contribute to erosion). We already have laws on the books about noise (certain levels based on year of manufacturing), laws about safe passage (i.e. speed), laws about drinking and boating, laws about anchoring, laws about right of way..........adding another law isn't necessarily going to solve anything.

MP has limited resources, and limited funding from the state - without additional funding and manpower it can be difficult to enforce these laws. Part of the responsibility (and the larger part at that) lies on the shoulders of the operator of the vessel. Boater Education!!! If the operators learn these laws they will be aware of right from wrong, and hopefully exercise the 'right' more than the 'wrong'.

I fail to understand your point on how exactly a speed limit law is going to satisfy your 'right to peaceful enjoyment of the lake'. Quite frankly the safety of all boaters lives are by far much more important and significant than peaceful enjoyment. When a boater operates in an unsafe manner, it not only endangers their boat and its passengers, but the occupants of other boats that come in contact with it. Most of all, it endangers the lives of the Fire Fighters who have to come to the rescue / recovery. This is where it really matters -- an uneducated operator can inflict hardship on so many other than themselves, they can risk the lives of innocent people and risk the lives of our fire fighters all because they choose to be ignorant. And yes, being ignorant is a choice.

Why are we such a lazy society - when we can't do something ourselves, we want the government to make a law which will force us to do what we could have done all by ourselves in the first place???????

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Outlaw

There is no speed that is too much

This is where you lose me. And I think this is where you lose most people. We think there is a speed that is too much! 200 mph is too fast for this lake, PERIOD.

I don't care how you want to argue it, there are limits.

[Audiofn]

Originally Posted by Islander

This is where you lose me. And I think this is where you lose most people. We think there is a speed that is too much! 200 mph is too fast for this lake, PERIOD.

I don't care how you want to argue it, there are limits.

I would be ok with a 200mph limit

How fast is to fast depends on oh so much. What is the hull of the boat? What is the operators ability. If you put some one that has never been in a speed boat before then perhaps 30mph will seem like to much for a while. If you put me behind the wheel then maybe 90+ other people are safe well into the 100mph spectum. I tend to back off way early if I feel that there are people getting to close. Better safe then sorry.

Jon

[Bear Islander]

I think 200 mph is to fast for Winnipesaukee.

[Islander]

This is where these people are coming from! They want to blast by Eagle Island at 200 mph.

Notice that the generic name for these boats is "Offshore". Winni doesn't have anyplace that is offshore.

[Alton Bay]

Just a reminder that the speed limit hearing is tomorrow. If you can't make the hearing, be sure to call your local reps...tonight.

[FormulaOutlaw]

Originally Posted by Islander

And FormulaOutlaw should go insult children somewhere else IMHO.

The only "children" I may have insulted are posting in this Forum.

[FormulaOutlaw]

[QUOTE=JDeere]

Nothing wrong thrill seeking until it infringes on other people. Your post makes it clear that you think about your first otherwise you would not have felt it necessary to take a shot at someone. If you need speed to get your thrill then by all means go out and get them but not when you put others at risk but it appears that that is not an issue to you…………..hence we need laws to make you the outlaw you wannabe.

Sorry, I don't see where someone operating a performance boat in a responsible manner is infringing on your rights, no more than you paddling by in a canoe would be infringing on mine.

And a "wannabe"???? In 2003 I helped produce two national boat races, (The Suncoast Offshore Grand Prix and the Sarasota Offshore Showdown, which I was the Chairman for the Tow/Patrol Committee, Co-Chairman for the Driver/Sponsor Party, and the "Course Captain"), five poker runs, two fun runs, which benefited the Suncoast Foundation for the Handicapped, The Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation, and the Sarasota Chapter of PAL along with others. I volunteered over seven hundred hours of my time for these events which totaled over half a million dollars raised for charities. I sit on two Boards of Directors for two different "offshore groups".

JDeere, please list what you have done for the boating community as of late.

And then we'll see who's the "wannabe".

p.s. I plan on trailering "OUTLAW", my boat, up to Maine next summer. I will certainly find the time to run "Lake Winni". I am very much looking forward to it. I'll be easy to spot. "OUTLAW" is emblazened on the hullsides.

[b8tcaster]

How fast is that sucker?

[FormulaOutlaw]

Originally Posted by Aubrey

.
FormulaOutlaw is not a member of the lake community. He has ridiculed this web site and the people in it. I doubt if he has contributed to the upkeep of this site. I think he should go away and stay away.

No, I am not a member of your community, but I am an avid member of the "boating community". And in the grand picture, your community is part of the overall "boating community".

I have in no way ridiculed this Forum. I have ridiculed the "I don't like it so you can't do it" concept that is so prevalent here.

The solution to this situation is education and awareness, something I will keep bringing up. Why? Because it is true. It's just that simple.

If it makes you feel any better, I believe I have gotten my point across. I will keep checking back to see how this Thread plays out and unless someone tries to come after me, I don't plan on posting much. I've said what I have to say.

But I'll be watching.......................................... ................................

[FormulaOutlaw]

Originally Posted by b8tcaster

How fast is that sucker?

That's top secret information, but it can't pass a gas dock. LOL

[BI1]

Originally Posted by FormulaOutlaw

Here here Jon. It is "family" like you that make me extremely proud to be a member of OSO.

In this forum, in my own posts, I have been respectful. I will always defend someone's right to disagree with me. I think it's laughable that some have chosen to steal posts from "the other site" in order to try to demean respectfully written posts in this site. Is that the best you can do?????
You can't say anything to dispute what we have written here, so you try to discredit it by blurring the issue and slamming us. Well slam away. The only thing I'm interested in this Forum is standing up for the rights of everyone, even those of you who I strongly disagree with. And that is more than what you would be willing to do for me. I didn't sneak into your forum and steal posts.

Education and awareness will help your situation. Concentrate on the issue at hand, not making others who disagree with you look bad. Won't work.

Im In for a 3rd vote...Here here Jon..!well said!

[FormulaOutlaw]

Originally Posted by BI1

Im In for a 3rd vote...Here here Jon..!well said!

Thanks....

[Audiofn]

Originally Posted by Islander

This is where these people are coming from! They want to blast by Eagle Island at 200 mph.

Notice that the generic name for these boats is "Offshore". Winni doesn't have anyplace that is offshore.

Do you have any idea about reality at all? There are only 4 boats in the WORLD that can go that fast, and maybe 6 people that I can think of in the WORLD that are capable of driving a boat at that speed. Of those 4 boats only 2 are "offshores" they are Callen Marine and the Bacardi Skater. Not to worry the likelyhood that either of these are going to show up at Lake Whiny is about the same as the planet earth being hit by a huge meteor. To the best of my knowledge the fastest boat that is on Lake Winni is just over 100. Still fast yes but a far cry from 200. Yes "THESE PEOPLE" as you refer to us think a 200mph speed limit would be ok as it would have no effect on us.
As for Offshore boats on the lake, I have been on Lake Winni when it has been MUCH rougher then when out on the ocean. If you boat out there often then you know full well how rough it can be when the wind whips up on the broads. Anything that is not on the dry land is offshore

[Outlaw]

Originally Posted by Islander

This is where you lose me. And I think this is where you lose most people. We think there is a speed that is too much! 200 mph is too fast for this lake, PERIOD.

I don't care how you want to argue it, there are limits.

I think there is only one lost person. Speed is relevant to the boat as explained in the post by Audiofn. There are laws governing speed already on the books - are you familiar with them? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you are not, based on the example of 200 miles by Eagle Island. Why do you think it is boaters go by Eagle Island (and Governor's) in the manner they do?

[Outlaw]

Originally Posted by FormulaOutlaw

The solution to this situation is education and awareness, something I will keep bringing up. Why? Because it is true. It's just that simple.

Thank you FormulaOutlaw - well said. I with you on that one. EDUCATION - the more you know and understand, the more empowered you are.

[Outlaw]

Originally Posted by Aubrey

FormulaOutlaw is not a member of the lake community. He has ridiculed this web site and the people in it. I doubt if he has contributed to the upkeep of this site. I think he should go away and stay away.

What exactly is your definition of "a member of the lake community"?

[b8tcaster]

Ocasionally when the lake is calm enough and I get a big head I have tried to see if my bass boat can keep up with one of you guys. Seems I always get humbled pretty quickly...lol. Maybe this summer with an extra 50 hp I might have a chance

[ApS]

Originally Posted by FormulaOutlaw

The only "children" I may have insulted are posting in this Forum.

I'm afraid Formula Outlaw has a point. We are just children at this Forum, and need lots of "Education and Awareness".

On the other hand, at the Big Boater Forum, "Outlaws" have to pay for "Adult Content".

I'm so confused

[FormulaOutlaw]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

I'm afraid Formula Outlaw has a point. We are just children at this Forum, and need lots of "Education and Awareness".

On the other hand, at the Big Boater Forum, "Outlaws" have to pay for "Adult Content".

I'm so confused

Acres: thank you. In this Forum I have tried to post replies in a respectful manner. Many of the posts directed back at me have been somewhat less than that. And I think going into the "Big Boater Forum" to steal posts from there was really lame. The issue at hand is what is going to be done about the circumstances at "the Lake", it's not about what I, or anyone else, might have been said in what would be normally deemed a private conversation, though as it was posted in a public Forum, one can't really say that either. It comes down to I can either say it nice, or say it not nice. In your Forum I will continue to be nice. I don't want to give the powers to be a reason to kick me off.

And for the record: On the "other Board" you can register for free and have access to limited areas and post in those areas. Then you can step up and register for what they call either Gold or Platinum memberships. That gives you access to more areas, the "uncensored" section just one of many. There is no "plan or membership" that you can purchase that allows you solely into that "uncensored" section. The bottom line is that in order for one to enter that section, they have to click on and enter that section. So one has the choice to either enter or not to enter. Anyone has the right to do that, just as anyone has the right to choose not to do that. It all goes back to rights. And choices. So no one is really paying for "adult content". Like on Cable TV, you purchase a "package" of stations, and adult stations are part of that package. Then one has the choice to either view, or not to view, those stations. Same thing on that "other Board".

When Jon, AudioFN, got ripped off on those engines he bought, you would not have believed the outpouring of support he received from OSO. I would guess at least 80 people, withing 36 hours, were posting what they had and would gladly send to him for free if he could use it. Everything from "heads", to carbareutors, intake manifolds, exhaust systems, cams, battery boxes, you name it. He could have built new motors with what people were willing to give him. It was both amazing and quite touching. We are just one big family over there, and we are of the 3 Musketeer creed, "all for one and one for all". It's a very special place. It is not a place of outlaws, perverts, misfits, or whatever. It is a place made up by members from every walk of life. For us it is a place we call our second "home".

[Audiofn]

Acres: I am not sure why you keep bringing up what he says over on offshoreonly but since you have again let me put it to you like this. Over on OSO we all share a common bond/sport. We all like to run offshore power boats. SO when we all talk together it is more like two old friends having a conversation. We laugh at others mistakes, we cry when some one dies or gets hurt, we joke to make one another feel better again. We all are there to help one another out. When you hang out with your friends I am sure your conversations are quite a bit different then when you first start talking to a new person that you just met. That is what is going on btwn this board and that one. When we are over there we speek our minds, over hear we argue our point respectrully as this is not our normal stomping grounds. When you all go over there and read our posts and quote them over on this site it is like some one that walks by two friends having a conversation and they hear one little bit of it and then want to act on that one piece of info that they heard.

I honestly do not see what the adult content on our site has to do with anything. I actually think that it was very good that the moderators came up with a solution to keep all that stuff out of the eyes of the youngerl viewers. I know that it is a popular part of the site as there are some really funny posts in there. I personally CHOOSE to not go in that part of the site often but when I do I ussually leave laughing.

Jon

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Islander

Notice that the generic name for these boats is "Offshore". Winni doesn't have anyplace that is offshore.

Isn't every boat that's in the lake "offshore"

Here's a picture of a boat NOT offshore...it's called a "planter"

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Audiofn

We ran a radar trap for a Poker run in upstate NY. They were unable to get a read off ANY of our boats. That included one run that they asked us to go within 30 feet of their boat. The radar was run by a certified officer and he could not make it work. So how do you measure speed on the water? Jon
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...&postcount=100

Is this the very same Audiofn that stated previously:

Originally Posted by Audiofn

The moving test is one that is JUST PLAIN DANGEROUS! I would NEVER drive my boat at WOT within 150 feet of anyone if they want me to or not. Now the law says that they want us a LOT closer to that. To that I reply NO WAY.

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums...14&postcount=97

Alert! Some unauthorized person has been using your user-name! Alert! Alert!


.

[Aubrey]

Originally Posted by Outlaw

What exactly is your definition of "a member of the lake community"?

FormulaOutlaw is not a member of the lake community by any reasonable definition! He lives and boats in Florida. He does claim that many years ago he lived in Maine and visited Winnipesaukee a few times. However he displays no knowledge of the lake. By his own admission he is here to try and prevent a speed limit and that he joined here only to vote in the poll.

He is an activist for the Offshore boating community.

He has been rude and insulting to the board and it's members and their children.

by Formula Outlaw

I just went into the first site to lurk. One rubberhead states that anyone going over 45 "isn't going that fast to get somewhere, but for the thrill of it". What in the hell is wrong with getting a thrill outta life????? They need to put that idiot in a box, put it in the ground, and throw the dirt on it.

It's bad having a thrill? That's one of the absolute stupidest moronic things I have ever read. Thank God I live down here. I couldn't take those azzholes.

______________________________________

No kidding.......going through that Forum last night it was so "Green" my computer felt like it had Kryptonite around it. This one guy who owns, according to others, the biggest dump of a marina on the lake, is juming on the "let's clean up the lake" bandwagon. Wants to put PortaPotties so the ice fisherman won't piss in the lake.

I wonder how he'll train the fish to use the PortaPotties?

I can only imagine the site of all those "weenies" whining about how only THEIR interest in the lake is important. "BearLover" is my favorite. I wonder what his/her kids look like?

I think a person that lives, works or visits the lake area on a regular basis could be considered a member of the lake community. Somebody that MIGHT have visited here 20 years ago is not.

[DoTheMath]

Aubrey / Acres Per Second ~

I not only happen to be a "member of the lake community" (been on the lake for 36 years, we own a house on the water and a boat that is considerably faster then 45 mph.). I also happen to be a PROUD paying member of "that other site" you have spent your time bashing - and from the looks of it, you are sadly mis-informed, on many levels. I am sure - after reading this thread - you have no idea of the make up of that site or it's members, and thus should not be commenting negatively on it! The support that the members on it get from each other as well as the staff that runs it is unparalled, anywhere. I really wonder what it is that makes you so unrelenting on others life styles and preferences as to how they spend their time? I personally know Audiofn, have boated with him and you would be hard-pressed to find a more stand up guy, not to mention a more responsible boater, at ANY speed! He is a great example of the make up of that "other site" and the type of boater you'll find over there. We have people from all walks of life, law enforcement, construction workers, lawyers, sales guys and some of the most respected and esteemed names you'll find in the boating industry.

I grew up on this lake, spent summers working for local marinas and doing my part to make a difference, I consider a number of the current owners good friends of mine. If someone knocked your preference for boating I am confident that you would come to the table on the defensive and stand up for yourself? Well, it looks like you might have gone and done the same with a couple of our guys and didn't like the results!? Not a very "upstanding" thing to have done, do you think? I wasn't going to chime on on this thread, but I feel strongly about the subject matter and stronger about my fellow "mafiOSO-women-degrading" boaters .

It is too bad that you feel the need to slam someone that you have no clue as to what they are really like. We are all boaters - and are in it for the love of the sport. Just because we drive fast boats and they might be a bit louder then your average Sea Ray, doesn't make it wrong no matter who you (think) you are. Really, expand your horizons a bit and be less narrow minded - you'll find that there is a whole other world out there and some great people in it, including the "outlaws" over on OSO.

-Mark-

[Island Lover]

Great post Mark. But it will be more helpfull if you respond to the questions at hand.

Is Formula Outlaw a member of the lake community?

Why is he here?

Did he trash this forum and its members?

[Island Girl]

Just because someone has not come to the lake in a long time does not mean he/she is not welcome. I have read the posts in both forums and have found that FormulaOutlaw has respected the tone of this forum. The tone on the offshore forum is a little rougher but that has not been displayed here (except in the posts others have copied from their other forum).

I may not agree with all of the posts here, but all are welcome as long as they are not abusive.

Don is the boss here and gently enforces the etiquette. He has the right to monitor the posts of those who may get out of hand.

I am grateful to have the forum and winni.com to share and read about others' experiences. I can turn off posts from those I do not wish to read.

I would not like to see us become so pc that only "correct' opinions are displayed. I would not want to get shot down because my opinion may be different.

The phrase someone taught me a long time ago to always think about is "I could be wrong."

Live and Let Live!

As for the speed limits.... here is the reply I received from the sponsor of the bill

"As you noted, this was at the request of Mr. Fay of Fay's boat yard, and referred to mostly the so called Cigarette boats whose noise and speed are well known since there introduction to the lake."

I personally am against the bill as written as I do not believe that it solves any stated problem. I agree with others that recklessness, not obeying the 150' law and inexperienced boaters present more safety issues.

Just my humble opinion.

[CMG]

Meeting went on for 2 hours, not going to gloat but... great news - for some of us. See you this spring.

[Audiofn]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Is this the very same Audiofn that stated previously:



Alert! Some unauthorized person has been using your user-name! Alert! Alert!


.

Ah you think you are so smart but again I must enlighten you.... First off when we are asked to run a DB test with my pleasure boat then we are running with family on board, some times kids, standard life jackets, and none of the safty gear that I wear when I am in my race boat. I will never go anything then just over planing speed with kids on the boat. If I get pulled over by the MP's then they are going to force to me to run my boat in a manner that I am not comfortable with kids on board? When I am in a race boat I have speacial steering, it is me and my driver or me and my throttle man, we wearing not only custom made life vests but also helmets and multiple kill switches. The peole on the boat that we are running at are specially trained, and choose to put themselves in that position. I will NEVER put another person on any of my pleasure boats or another in that possition. When I get pulled over in my pleasure boat and asked to do a run like that it is NOT the choice or the people in my boat but the MP's and if it is not safe it is not safe. At any rate we did not even come close to the 30 feet that we were asked to pass as we did not feel safe doing so, others however did and they were not picked up by the radar. So I guess you have to keep digging you have yet to catch me. You also have yet to show me any evidence that this proposed speed limit will do anything to make the lake safer.

As you can see from the pictures below we are wearing our life jackets and helmets durring the run.

Jon

[Rattlesnake Gal]

Bravo IG! I wholeheartedly agree with everything you stated.
One thing I would like add. The opinions and antagonistic views of a few forum members are just that, their opinions. Don’t judge me and the other members on these people’s actions. This forum, like the other, has a wonderful group of people that make it up.

[DoTheMath]

Originally Posted by Island Lover

Great post Mark. But it will be more helpfull if you respond to the questions at hand.

Is Formula Outlaw a member of the lake community?

Why is he here?

Did he trash this forum and its members?

I'm sorry... MORE helpful!? He was - and aside from that, does he need to be a full time "member" (last I checked we don't have I.D cards and dues ). He likes to come up and visit and enjoy it like the rest of us. And he did NOT cast the first stone from the way I read it! He is and was trying to be respectful and in turn got slammed... He is a boater, just like other boaters, and is looking to preserve the rights of those of us that hold the sport close at heart. ADDITIONALLY - he is one of the (good) guys from that other site that came over here to support those of us that ARE regulars on the lake, imagine that?

[Rattlesnake Gal]

Audiofn, certain people love a good debate and can keep it up indefinitely. It gets to a point where you just have to ignore them, that is, unless you want to keep giving them a thrill.

[Outlaw]

Originally Posted by Aubrey

FormulaOutlaw is not a member of the lake community by any reasonable definition! He lives and boats in Florida. He does claim that many years ago he lived in Maine and visited Winnipesaukee a few times. However he displays no knowledge of the lake. By his own admission he is here to try and prevent a speed limit and that he joined here only to vote in the poll.

He is an activist for the Offshore boating community.

He has been rude and insulting to the board and it's members and their children.

I think a person that lives, works or visits the lake area on a regular basis could be considered a member of the lake community. Somebody that MIGHT have visited here 20 years ago is not.

I apologize for this question, but I haven't been on this site for a few months, just been too darn busy, but I believe I missed the poll for Lake Community Members. It's okay to not agree with everyone, that we certainly know is impossible. People that visit here on what ever frequency, who pay for services of all kinds, that money is in direct relation to a business in the lake community and some small portion of it that is retained after taxes, is contributed to the lake community. In a way I would think these visitors are members of the lake community, since this lake community thrives on tourism. Many of the forum members live elsewhere from the lake and this forum allows them to stay in touch with the area when they can't physically be here. These are people who have an interest in the lake and the community for a variety of different reasons regardless of the frequency of their visits to the area.

What I've gathered from FormulaOutlaw's posts, the Readers Digest version, is he is a proponent of education. Education is a good thing, that's what separates the informed from the uninformed.

[DoTheMath]

RG & Outlaw... the exception to the norm (over here). Thanks for your open-mindedness and objective viewpoints!

[Outlaw]

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

RG & Outlaw... the exception to the norm (over here). Thanks for your open-mindedness and objective viewpoints!

DoTheMath - right back at cha buddy.

[b8tcaster]

Seemed all but one opposed a speed limit. Those opposed offered facts for the most part while the one person in favor basically presented an argument that big, loud, boats ("40 and 50 footers with 3 500 hp motors") lol did not belong on the lake and he was afraid to go out with his 21 footer because of all the offshore boats. I did chuckle when the rep who introduced the bill stated that some of the go fast boats could go from one end of the lake to the other in 7 minutes.. Which one of you offshore mafia guys gave him that evidence cuz I want to take a ride with you..lmao. In all seriousness though I dont think this bill will get passed but there are some serious issues with the lake that need to be addressed before a bill like this gets major support. All its going to take is one careless person out there doing something reckless and support for this type of bill will appear. I personally would like to see a greater Marine Patrol presence on the lake to enforce the existing laws which will in turn reduce the conflict between the different user groups.We all have to remember that when people are enjoying the lake in whatever manner, they expect to avoid any conflicts. Other peoples behavior can significantly change that experience and be a driving force behind this type of legislation. I would really like to know what you guys think are the leading issues that need to be adressed on the lake and any ideas to improve the situation?

[upthesaukee]

B8tcaster---thanks for the update...replies from the reps I contacted indicated just what you reported. Yes, there probably is a problem, but the speed limit is not the solution. I wholeheartedly agree: More MP presence and be able to enforce the existing regulations of the state and this lake to the mutual enjoyment of all boaters: powered, sailed or paddled.


to RG, IG, and others: Here Here. this is a forum for the lake region, but you certainly don't have to be a resident of a lakeshore community to be able to post and have an opinion.


and opinions are like............................um........noses.Ev ery one has one, but they can all be different.

FormulaOutlaw...I concur that you have tried to be courteous and simply express your opinion here on this forum. If someone doesn't like the rougher edge of ANY other website, then "hit the back button" and get outta there.

I said it earlier in this thread and I'll say it again. Let's not get into name calling, stick to the issues, and be respectful of each other.

[jeffk]

So it looks like we might get to discussing what the consensus opinion (besides a speed limit) seems to be, namely education and enforcement. Both are ongoing but are not effective at addressing the current problems on the lake. How can that be changed?

Education - the boating education law is in effect and people are being trained. One thing that I note is that I took the full Coast Guard course at UNH. I was surprised however that the instructors were very ignorant of the regulations and navigation that applied on the lake. 150 ft rule? Huh? Black east north Red south west? Really?? They were great on International Rules of Navigation but Winnipesaukee navigation was a real mystery. So I got my certificate (got 100 on the test) but I didn't learn much about Winni rules. So my question is: is the education plan sufficient? Should there be additional education required for operators of vessels with "special" capabilities i.e. Jet skis, high performance boats? I have Jet skis as well as my bow rider and I was surprised how completely different I need to operate my jet skis. The manuverability can be extremely disorienting. You have to think in 360 degrees and anticipate the effect of rapid changes in direction. A vessel following can almost instantaneously become a vessel coming directly at you. Should people be educated about that? Should it be required before they can ride in the lake?

Enforcement - we seem to need better coverage on the lake but getting money for that in NH is a challenge. How does enforcement need to be improved? How much $$ would be needed? Could we get it by raising registration fees?? Would that be OK with people on this forum? If not, how to pay for it? Is the Marine Patrol focusing on the right things? Are they effective? Do they need better training?

If we don't want knee jerk solutions to stupid behavior and the seemingly inevitable crash or death, what can we change now to get a better outcome?

[ApS]

Originally Posted by jeffk

"...If we don't want knee jerk solutions to stupid behavior and the seemingly inevitable crash or death, what can we change now to get a better outcome?"

Don't worry about "incident" reactions. The Dealers already have them outlined:
1) It was a "freak" incident.
2) Let's not commit some knee-jerk reaction.
3) It could have happened anywhere.
4) Awareness is the solution to incidents like this.
5) We need more boater education to prevent incidents like this.
6) It's too soon to determine the next course of action. (My favorite).
7) Let's not panic over this incident.
8) Let's keep cool heads over this incident.
9) This incident was caused by defective hardware.
10) The smaller boat was at fault in this incident.
11) They were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
12) At least he was doing what he loved to do.

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

"...Answering your question above I believe the MP estimated the speed of the Baja at about 27 MPH, not really a different velocity than the proposed 25 mph..."

1) But we don't know what the speed of the Baja actually was!

In civil law suits, it is not unusual to simulate the collision with the actual device(s) used. Then we know for sure. All we have now is supposition or the testimony of the perpetrator.

2) I find it curious that we "skipped" a year without some Legislator's speed limit proposal. We expected one in 2002, and got one. Was it in 2004 that more Winnipesaukee boaters were exposed to the "excesses" of Big Boaters? Should it be called "Raised Consciousness?"

There certainly were plenty of them this past season -- and lewd behavior with them. http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...97&postcount=9

They're getting thrown off other protected inland waters and we're getting stuck with them.

[FormulaOutlaw]

Originally Posted by Island Lover

Great post Mark. But it will be more helpfull if you respond to the questions at hand.

Is Formula Outlaw a member of the lake community?

Why is he here?

Did he trash this forum and its members?

"IL" if you refer to post # 88 that might help answer your first question. Additionally, I am an avid member of the boating community, which in turn, your "lake community" is part of. I feel "the Lake" is part of the overall boating community. At least that's how I see it.

Why am I here? Simple. I find the "I don't like it so you can't do it" idealogy to be offensive. I am here because I don't agree with the attempt of a select few who want control who can and who cannot enjoy "the Lake". I am here to support the rights of ALL boaters who might enjoy Lake Winni, irregardless of the type of vessel they choose to operate.

Did I trash this forum and it's members? I would suggest you go back through this thread, read what I have posted and decide for yourself, not rely on the opinions of others. While I am a guest in this Forum, I will play by your rules. I will express my views in a straightforward, yet respectable manner. In "the other Forum" I have been a little less courteous, however I will stand by everything I have said. I will also add that I, in this Forum, have been much more respectful than what some others have been towards me. I have been very careful so as not to cross the line with the webmaster of this Forum. I respect this Forum and I would not want to do that. For those that have pirated posts of mine from the "other" Forum, have done so for the sole reason to try to "discredit" me and distract from what I have stated. Like I said, go back and read what I have posted and decide for yourself.

I stand up for everyone's right to use "the Lake", not just what the "in crowd" might like to see. If being willing to stand up for everyone, including those that disagree with me, or detest me, makes me a bad guy, then I feel there is a possibility I am an evil person.

I do not mean to be offensive here but, sometimes it takes "people like me to keep people like you" in check. And by "you" I mean those who would be judge and jury to decide who does and who does not get to enjoy "the Lake".
Those who would try to gets laws passed for the only sake of ridding the lake of what "they" consider to be a nusiance. Those who would believe that they are better than everyone else. Harsh perhaps, but nonetheless true.

It appears that "they" seem to be in the minority in this Forum. And Thank You to those who have acknowledged that I have been courteous and respectful here. I call it the way I see it, I don't beat around the bush and that makes a lot of people uncomfortable. I think that's unfortunate, but it's reality.

[FormulaOutlaw]

Oh, almost forgot.

To those of you who have "crossed over to the Dark Side"


WELCOME........................................... .....................

[Audiofn]

Well I guess after all this we will never get any evidence that speed is the cause of all the accidents up on the lake. I guess there we be no evidence shown that shows this law as doing anything to help keep the lake safe.

I am all for more MP on the lake to take care of people that break the laws. I don't care what boat you drive if you are breaking the law you should get a ticket or what ever the proper penalty is. I would be happy to pay a little more on my registration it is still the cheapest part of boating if you ask me. I also get frustrated while traveling across the lake and have people pass me in a unsafe manner, or cut across my bow with out looking, or what ever.

Jon

[Audiofn]

Acres you are lucky you have never been to the lake of the Ozarks party cove. It would make a guy like you realy upset Probably get ya to set up the first floating church

[winnilaker]

I was at the hearing and here is a summary for those who couldn't make it. There were about 40 people there in opposition and 1 in favor that spoke. It went on for 2 hours, got a $5 ticket from the meter person

The sponsor of the bill spoke of the reasons why the bill was proposed.
1. A local marina asked him to.
2. The speeds where choosen out of the air, quote "they sounded right"
3. He remembers when the lake was quiet and peaceful.
4. He reference an accident that happen 18 years ago
5. When asked, he couldn't tell the committee that this was based on any facts

Director of Marine Patrol, David Barrett spoke in opposition to the bill, stating.
1. It couldn't be enforced
2. Speed to his knowledge is not the root cause of issues on the lake
3. There are current laws that protect boaters

I forgot his name, but one of the representatives on the committee actually spoke in opposition to the law. And another committee member questioned representative Pilliod (Bill Sponsor) about speeds and told him that his own boat doesn't plane well at 25 mph.

Several Marina owners and residents spoke and here is a summary of the facts/comments provided in opposition

1. Boater registration is up and there is a significant reduction in accidents. Marine Patrol.
2. Since the last speed law bill was rejected by the transportation committee 14-0, nothing has happened that would warrant this bill to be passed. Marine Patrol and a representative.
3. The law could not be enforce with current radar technology
4. United States Coast Guards 2003 accident report shows that 92% of boats that are involved in fatal accidents are less than 26 feet.
5. A law such as described would reduce a significant number of boater registrations and would have a negative impact on several specific markets, testified by several folks.
6. Current laws achieve same goal as the bill would, 150 ft headway rule and reckless endangerment, etc.
7. No finanical impact study to marine Patrol was done by the sponsor.
8. Boater education seemed to be a big one and in 2008, anyone boating on the lake will be required to have a certification.
9. A reduction in boater registrations might reduce funding for marine patrol and boater safety programs.
10. Safe speeds are different for different types of boats, setting defined speed limits might make some situations safer while making other situations dangerous.

Comments made by those in favor:
1. Don't feel safe boating on weekends
2. Doesn't feel Marine is doing a good job now with current laws
3. Big Monster boats shouldn't be on lake and that laws like this will help send a message and they would stop coming.

The sponsor and the one individual in favor, basically talked of big "monster boats" owning the lake. I had to chuckle a bit when one individual starting talking about the "Rich" people who can afford these boats shouldn't be on the lake. He actually brought in an ad for a 47' fountain and read the boat specifics and price to the committee.

I guess you have to look at this way.
If there was a 4 way stop in your town and a few individuals didn't like it because sometimes other drivers didn't let them go inorder. Do you put in traffic lights? Probably not.

But if there were several accidents at that intersection, I would think they would put in traffic lights. i.e. pass a speed limit.

So in my opinion, there appears to be no facts, statistics or non-emotional reasons why this bill should be passed.

So this was my first post in the forum, so let me have it.

[Outlaw]

Winnilaker -

Thank you so much for posting all this informative information. More importantly thank you for being at the hearing. Excellent job, excellent information - what a fantastic first post.

[Audiofn]

I hate being right all the time

[PROPELLER]

I would like to take this opportunity, in the wake (no pun intended) of the speed limit discussion, to point out that we at Winni are lucky. I boated for several years in the North Shore area of Mass betweem Nahant & Gloucester and my opinion that area is much more congested, boaters are much less conscious of their wake & how close they pass another boat, less courteous & there is NO MARINE PATROL AT ALL.

I just received my new issue of Motor Boating & there is a letter in the Mailboat section that references how Lake of the Ozarks next to Lake Havasu is the biggest on water party the author has ever seen. I also read how Lake Norman in NC set a world record for the largest raft up, over 1,000 boats.

So to all those who have been complaining about how bad Winni is, count your blessings, you have it very good here in Paradise.

[DoTheMath]

Ahhh yes, the power of calm - cool reasoning and pure facts... what a wonderful thing!