Civility rears its ugly head!

[Skip]

Wow!

Little bored tonight waiting for the impending Northeaster so I was reading some of the past years speed limit debates.

Maybe its just me but this year's debate seems much more civil! Not being privy to Don's editing key, I don't know how many posts he may have had to modify or delete, but the tone this year seems much more neighborly.

I don't think many minds have been swayed and maybe everyone is getting tuckered out. But it is much easier to me this year to look at both sides of the issue when the hostility is cranked back a few notches.

Tip of the hat to Don, one of the best "behind the scenes" moderators out there!

And thanks to our point-counter-pointers out there for being a wee bit nicer this time around....you all know who you are!

[hazelnut]

Skip,

I'm guessing that the civility has to do with there being less at stake. Last year people were amped up with the impending legislation. This year it is mostly speculation and discussion.

I also think there aren't many people who would begrudge a Speed Limit in those highly congested areas. My boat only goes 50 but I don't think I've ever gone more than 25mph in the two areas in question.

My only thought is do we really need a law to spell this one out? Common sense would dictate this one here wouldn't it. Lets see what affect the law regarding Boating License Possession has on these things. We still haven't seen the full affect of that law yet have we. When does it catch up to all boaters that they must possess one?

[Airwaves]

My take on it is that folks on both sides have already said pretty much everything they had to say on the subject last year, so why bring all that mudslinging up again?

I'm not going to change anyone's mind and no one is going to change mine. I think most people on both sides feel that way so let's just see what happens.

[Excalibur]

If the law passes it will just be similar to the speed limits on our roads.

When we are in a hurry to run from a thunderstorm or meet friends at the Naswa for dinner. We will speed along above the speed limits and possibly put others in danger.

How many of us make excuses for speeding along a country road? Maybe a ball followed by a child will cross our path and maybe our reaction time due to speed will cause something terrible to happen. But people will be people and forever flawed.

Only when the law enforcement is there will we slow down to 65MPH for a mile or so and then we will be back up to the speed we feel comfortable with.

Is a new law really going to change anything?

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

"...I'm not going to change anyone's mind and no one is going to change mine..."

Just a rhetorical question...asked quietly and civilly:

"Is there no headline that would cause you to change your mind?"

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Excalibur

If the law passes it will just be similar to the speed limits on our roads.

When we are in a hurry to run from a thunderstorm or meet friends at the Naswa for dinner. We will speed along above the speed limits and possibly put others in danger.

How many of us make excuses for speeding along a country road? Maybe a ball followed by a child will cross our path and maybe our reaction time due to speed will cause something terrible to happen. But people will be people and forever flawed.

Only when the law enforcement is there will we slow down to 65MPH for a mile or so and then we will be back up to the speed we feel comfortable with.

Is a new law really going to change anything?

You make some points that I don't necessairy agree with, but at least we both agree that new law really would be a silly waste.

On the road, there's no need to slow to the speed limit when you see a cop, odds are good he/she knows how fast you were going and has already made his/her decision to ticket or not. Suddenly slowing on the highway is less safe than exceeding the limit a bit. The best bet is to run a reasonable speed whether there's a cop around or not, and stay out of the passing lane unless you are passing. They seem to be cracking down on people hanging out in the left lane now.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Dave R

You make some points that I don't necessairy agree with, but at least we both agree that new law really would be a silly waste.

On the road, there's no need to slow to the speed limit when you see a cop, odds are good he/she knows how fast you were going and has already made his/her decision to ticket or not. Suddenly slowing on the highway is less safe than exceeding the limit a bit. The best bet is to run a reasonable speed whether there's a cop around or not, and stay out of the passing lane unless you are passing. They seem to be cracking down on people hanging out in the left lane now.

They need to get on I-93 between the MA border and Concord. It seems as though once people get in the left lane, they ain't moving over for anything. Not too long ago I was heading north just past the Hooksett tolls. Middle of the day, very light traffic. I was in the left lane doing about 70 in a 65. I came up on a car doing about 65, and with more than enough room to move over, didn't. I gave a quick flash of the high beams, and still nothing. So of course I have to be the a-hole and pass them on the right. As I go by I look over, and both the driver and the passenger are flipping me the bird. What did I do wrong?

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by chipj29

They need to get on I-93 between the MA border and Concord. It seems as though once people get in the left lane, they ain't moving over for anything. Not too long ago I was heading north just past the Hooksett tolls. Middle of the day, very light traffic. I was in the left lane doing about 70 in a 65. I came up on a car doing about 65, and with more than enough room to move over, didn't. I gave a quick flash of the high beams, and still nothing. So of course I have to be the a-hole and pass them on the right. As I go by I look over, and both the driver and the passenger are flipping me the bird. What did I do wrong?

Nothing, but they probably considered flashing of the lights rude. I don't bother flashing my lights, I just go around.

[hazelnut]

Used to be that you could flash the lights quick and people would move over. No big deal just a courtesy thing. Nowadays it seems everyone is so angry when they drive that they take everything personally.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Nothing, but they probably considered flashing of the lights rude. I don't bother flashing my lights, I just go around.

So because of their ignorance, they make me look like the ****. I wish they would teach driver courtesy in drivers ed. Keep right, except to pass. It is pretty basic. It is even a law in some states! Shocking!

[fatlazyless]

About an hour ago, the Mount chugged through the Bear Island inside passage, on its' seasonal shakedown cruise from Centre Harbor to the Weirs.

And, just wouldn't you know it, as soon as it passes buoy three, it increases its' big diesel revs up to 300rpm and gets back up on plane to a trim 65mph. Who was that well dressed, short, blonde guy driving the Mount, and is this a sign of the coming summer events?

[Neanderthal Thunder]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Nothing, but they probably considered flashing of the lights rude. I don't bother flashing my lights, I just go around.

There are LEFT-hand exits on I-93. A driver needing to exit there would normally stay in the left lane to take those exits. Distracting a driver by flashing your lights under those condtions could be dangerous for certian drivers.

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Originally Posted by Dave R

... On the road, there's no need to slow to the speed limit when you see a cop, odds are good he/she knows how fast you were going and has already made his/her decision to ticket or not. ...

Depends on the officer and the road. I was talking to an officer I used to work with while he was running a "speed trap" near my house on a busy local road. He could pick them up through the trees before they came around the curve. He know from the "angle speed" what he would read with a "head on" radar shot. The ones that were going only a little fast and slowed didn't get stopped. He just said, "thats what I am here for, to slow them down". The ones that didn't slow down and the ones going real fast that did slow down got tickets.

Your milage may vary ....

[tis]

Yeah Risy, I still think I will slow down when I see a cop if I am going too fast. It ALWAYS makes me look at my speedometer, anyway. If they truly WERE there to remind us to slow down, that would be nice, but I fear it is usually about money, not about us.
Chip, I agree, that is one of our biggest pet peeves. Sometimes they are on their phone, just chatting away, oblivious to what is going on around them.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by tis

Sometimes they are on their phone, just chatting away, oblivious to what is going on around them.

This is the biggest problem on the roads these days. Phones and cars don't mix..... logging betweeen 25K and 30K miles a year, I have my fair share of close calls because people are chatting away..... Also why I drive a 4X4truck now.... almost got driven over by people in SUVs talking on thier phones.... the other modern convience that needs to be outlawed is this bussiness of having video monitors in cars....... especially at night.... I will step down now off my saop box....

[Mark]

Originally Posted by chipj29

I was in the left lane doing about 70 in a 65. I came up on a car doing about 65, and with more than enough room to move over, didn't. I gave a quick flash of the high beams, and still nothing. So of course I have to be the a-hole and pass them on the right. As I go by I look over, and both the driver and the passenger are flipping me the bird. What did I do wrong?

All of the GO FAST people do not get it. What did you do wrong?

You have to ask that question after you freely admit to exceeding the speed limit? What you did wrong was exceed the speed limit. You broke the law. You were driving in an unsafe manner. Keeping us safe on the roads or the water is what speed limits are all about. The left lane car was running a rolling road block which is an idea that police have adopted and sometimes perform. It is a common practice among do-gooders.

This is a safety and legal issue. The Left Lane Cars that are going at the maximum allowable speed are protecting the small hard to see cars from the huge SUVs pick-ups and trucks. They are doing us all a service by keeping all those go fast (GF) drivers from breaking the law too. Speeders scare people in the smaller low-to-the-ground cars. Watching a huge SUV speeding up behind your small car gets their blood pumping. Will they see you in time to slow down? Could they stop in time if they needed to? Scary!

Why should anyone get out of your way so that you can go faster than the speed limit? It is crazy idea. What do they call someone who aids another in violating a law? Accomplices. There are legal ways to get people to move from the left lane. Such as legal front facing red or blue lights with or without siren.

This is somewhat similar to those who ignore the anchoring rules and anchor their boat too close to you. You anchored legally but once the other boat moved in you are now illegally anchored. You are both at fault for violating the anchoring rules amd subject to tickets even though you changed nothing. You allowed the law violation to occur.

Of course there are people who believe that speed limits and rules do not apply to them on land or sea (lake too). They use their own rational to justify their own modification of the rules and laws. Truth hurts.

Another reason we need better cell phone coverage so people can alert the authorities to speed violators.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Used to be that you could flash the lights quick and people would move over. No big deal just a courtesy thing. Nowadays it seems everyone is so angry when they drive that they take everything personally.

A flash of the headlights could be interpreted as "Please move over, when you can do so safely, so that I can pass" or "GET OUT OF MY WAY!!! My reaction to these two messages would probably be "Oh, excuse me, I'll move right over" and "Nuts to you!". How do I know which message is being delivered? Probably by the approach of the car. Does it approach gradually and keep a safe distance back OR come flying up and then sit on my tail. My experience lately is that most people who flash their lights at me are sending the second message, "HERE I COME! GET OUT OF MY WAY!". I have had people come up behind me with multiple cars stacked up in both lanes and ride my bumper and flash their lights. Where did they expect me to go? UP?

I don't camp in the passing lane but I don't believe it wise to be switching lanes excessively either. If I pass one car and anticipate that I'll be overtaking another car shortly I will stay in the passing lane. I am always, traffic allowing, doing at least the speed limit and probably about 5 MPH over. I don't feel an urgent need to get out of someone's way because they need to go 10 MPH over the limit. If there is no congestion, I move over, if its crowded you'll just have to wait.

I give chipj29 the benefit of the doubt here because all forum members are considerate people . He ran into (not literally) a jerk who refused to move over. However, I've been too often in the other guy's position and the guy behind me was a bonehead.

[Cal]

People who ride in the left lane and appoint themselves "protecters" have no right or responsiblility to do so. This is a major cause of road rage. Doing so can put yourself and others in danger. Leave the law enforcing to police officers.

[Phantom]

Mark -- I can't believe you're serious !! The sign says "Slower traffic keep right"

As with LIforrelaxin, I too put some serious road miles on my vehicle each year. Let's just hope your not runnin one of your "rollin roadblocks" that I get stuck in.

LIforrelaxin -- I agree 100% -- Cell phones are out of control ...... but let's not forget that reading the Globe, fixing ones make-up, or (my personal favorite) Shaving while driving are close seconds !!

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Just a rhetorical question...asked quietly and civilly:

"Is there no headline that would cause you to change your mind?"

Excellent question.

But Airwaves, greater than most folks, should know never to judge a story by it's headline!

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Neanderthal Thunder

There are LEFT-hand exits on I-93. A driver needing to exit there would normally stay in the left lane to take those exits. Distracting a driver by flashing your lights under those condtions could be dangerous for certian drivers.

Between the MA border and Concord, which I drive daily, there are exactly 2 left lane exits, which are for 101/293 off of both sides of I-93 in Manchester. Otherwise, where are the other left lane exits? If I am correct, there is only a single one on 93 North, from Boston to at least Franconia Notch. On 93 South, again, I believe there is only one. So your point is without basis.
My point is that the rules of the road are keep right except to pass. Period. If you are not passing someone and there are cars behind you, then you do not need to camp out in the left lane. Have some courtesy and move over.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by jeffk

A flash of the headlights could be interpreted as "Please move over, when you can do so safely, so that I can pass" or "GET OUT OF MY WAY!!! My reaction to these two messages would probably be "Oh, excuse me, I'll move right over" and "Nuts to you!". How do I know which message is being delivered? Probably by the approach of the car. Does it approach gradually and keep a safe distance back OR come flying up and then sit on my tail. My experience lately is that most people who flash their lights at me are sending the second message, "HERE I COME! GET OUT OF MY WAY!". I have had people come up behind me with multiple cars stacked up in both lanes and ride my bumper and flash their lights. Where did they expect me to go? UP?

I don't camp in the passing lane but I don't believe it wise to be switching lanes excessively either. If I pass one car and anticipate that I'll be overtaking another car shortly I will stay in the passing lane. I am always, traffic allowing, doing at least the speed limit and probably about 5 MPH over. I don't feel an urgent need to get out of someone's way because they need to go 10 MPH over the limit. If there is no congestion, I move over, if its crowded you'll just have to wait.

I give chipj29 the benefit of the doubt here because all forum members are considerate people . He ran into (not literally) a jerk who refused to move over. However, I've been too often in the other guy's position and the guy behind me was a bonehead.

Thanks for the benefit of the doubt JeffK. I did not fly up to the guy in front of me, I was well off his bumper, and gave him ample time to move over safely.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Phantom

As with LIforrelaxin, I too put some serious road miles on my vehicle each year. Let's just hope your not runnin one of your "rollin roadblocks" that I get stuck in.

LIforrelaxin -- I agree 100% -- Cell phones are out of control ...... but let's not forget that reading the Globe, fixing ones make-up, or (my personal favorite) Shaving while driving are close seconds !!

Phantom don't worry, I am not resposible for any "rollin roadblocks", I may not be the fastest on the road but I know that and use the passing lane for just that passing....

and yes you have those globe readers, and make-up artists too.....

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by RI Swamp Yankee

The ones that were going only a little fast and slowed didn't get stopped. He just said, "thats what I am here for, to slow them down". The ones that didn't slow down and the ones going real fast that did slow down got tickets.

This police officer is basically saying it's OK to speed as long as you slow down when you see a cop. Great message.

[Dave R]

There's people who are just clueless about left lane courtesy and then there are people who are trying to control other people (these are scary people who have no real friends) by operating a rolling road block. Both are a nuisance, at best. I don't let either bother me, but I must confess it gives me great pleasure to hear of said folks being ticketed.

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Originally Posted by Dave R

This police officer is basically saying it's OK to speed as long as you slow down when you see a cop. Great message.

He realized most people will do 40 in a 35 zone (Don't we all!) and sometimes need a reminder to slow down a bit. Doing 55 in a 35 zone is something else. The message he conveyed was "it's not about the money, it's safety". Many years after that he became one of the best Police Chiefs the town ever had.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by RI Swamp Yankee

He realized most people will do 40 in a 35 zone (Don't we all!) .

I'm certainly guilty of treating speed limits as lower limits rather than upper limits. I don't know many cops, but the ones I know are looking for the peak reading on the radar as a decision point for the pull-over and then the attitude of the driver as a decision point for the ticket.

For your Chief, perhaps the act of slowing in his presence was enough of an attitude indicator to skip the whole pull-over part. Years ago, this was probably pretty natural.

Seems like there's a lot more folks who see traffic police as nothing more than adversaries these days... I know that when they use airplanes to clock folks headed ot the beach on 101 east, and hand out tickets by the dozens, I think of them as nothing more than revenue enhancement officers.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by chipj29

"...I came up on a car doing about 65, and with more than enough room to move over, didn't. I gave a quick flash of the high beams, and still nothing. So of course I have to be the a-hole and pass them on the right. As I go by I look over, and both the driver and the passenger are flipping me the bird. What did I do wrong?

Were they German visitors?

Germany is a country where a license requires $2000 of driver preparation, the flashing of one's headlights is illegal, and nobody passes on the right.

http://www.grantsautorants.com/2004/12/autobahn.html
http://www.bmwofmurray.com/index.php...N_position=3:3 (Travel Tips).

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Phantom don't worry, I am not resposible for any "rollin roadblocks", I may not be the fastest on the road but I know that and use the passing lane for just that passing....

and yes you have those globe readers, and make-up artists too.....

The rolling roadblock reminds of the afternoon I was headed up 93N about 8 years ago. I was the second car behind 2 box trucks side by side at 55 mph the whole 2-lane stretch from Salem to Manchester. I didn't realize what they were doing until we got to the third lane in Manchester. Traffic must have been backed up behind us for miles and miles.

[CanisLupusArctos]

Every now and then someone brings this up and it goes on the airwaves as a news story or a random bit of radio trivia:

Flying in the days before Homeland Security was still a lot safer than driving is today.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Phantom

Mark -- I can't believe you're serious !! The sign says "Slower traffic keep right"

There are many things I can't believe Phantom. I can't believe that people think that speed limits do not apply to them. They say that 60 mph really means 65 or 70 mph. What's that all about? It's about how far one can bend the law usually without getting caught. Great lesson to teach our youngsters.

65 mph means what again? It means 65 mph, not 70 or 75. Is there any room for disagreement here? The police enforce the laws they do not make them. Not all officers are as liberal as those who promote driving above the speed limit.

The sign says "Slower traffic keep right", that does not mean move right to assist drivers who insist on driving illegally or unsafely.

You are an accomplice when you help another break the law.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Mark

{snip} You are an accomplice when you help another break the law.

OMG, and to think I've just stood there and watched people jaywalk. Remind me to trip 'em next time.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Mark

I can't believe that people think that speed limits do not apply to them. They say that 60 mph really means 65 or 70 mph. What's that all about?

Mark, do you honestly believe a fully loaded dump truck can safely stop and turn as well as a typical car? If you answered no, then why do you think the speed limits should be the same for both? Speed limits are set for the worst case scenario. Police know that as well. I imagine they'd ignore someone driving a Honda Accord at 9 MPH over the limit on a 40 MPH back road, but a dump truck doing the same would probably get a ticket.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Mark

The sign says "Slower traffic keep right", that does not mean move right to assist drivers who insist on driving illegally or unsafely.

You are an accomplice when you help another break the law.

That's pretty funny.How thoughtfull you are to not be an accomplice.
OK,using your very law abiding logic,your worse than an accomplice.Your the perpetrater.The sign says "slower traffic keep right and your staying in the left lane when faster traffic is trying to pass?How can you sleep at night?

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Mark

.........The sign says "Slower traffic keep right", that does not mean move right to assist drivers who insist on driving illegally or unsafely.

You are an accomplice when you help another break the law.

Man, I've been stuck behind you many times. Read your drivers ed manual, rules of the road section. If you are in the left lane matching speed with traffic in the right lane then you are breaking the law also. Right lanes are travel lanes, left lanes for passing.

Oh, wait a minute, you got me, you are a troll, and a pretty good one at that. In fact I think I will award you with the title "Elite troll" because you are so good at it some of us slower people don't even realize we are being trolled. Nice work.

[Island-Ho]

Since there are some that absolutely refuse to pull over into the right lane when there is no one else in sight, I'd like to know if I am breaking another law when I pass them on the right on a 4 lane highway (two lanes each way). It used to be against the law in NH to do this. Passing on the right on a six lane was OK. Is this still the case? It may be one of those laws that is never inforced, and one that only a few have even heard of. If it's still applicable, that's all the more reason for those drivers that think the left lane is the only lane to pull over! There may be numerous offenders on their way to Winnipesaukee, but I have never seen it as bad as I recently saw in Puerto Rico. The right lanes usually travel faster than the left there! Skip??

[Merrymeeting]

Skip,

Me thinks the original intent of your post was highjacked long ago. Oh well, it was nice while it lasted....