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Old 08-28-2022, 08:30 AM   #101
Sue Doe-Nym
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Default Commercial endeavor

In a perfect world, this HUB mania would disappear. Since that’s unlikely, I wish some group with significant financial backing would undertake this project, raising funds by selling interest in the project, and making it a for- profit project, something that many citizens from surrounding towns could use, and everyone would be happy campers, especially the taxpayers not being stiffed with the entire bill.
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Old 08-28-2022, 08:44 AM   #102
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I think the town is too small to do that also. It won't be used enough to keep dues down to make it affordable that's why they want taxpayers to foot the entire bill . Let's hope the town will continue to vote this down
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Old 08-28-2022, 02:28 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tis View Post
And when these towns want to push the passage of something, they always say it will only cost .05 a thousand or .10 a thousand. But you take 400 thousand or for lake front a million and add a lot of other pet projects that only add a nickel or a dime or a dollar per thousand and it adds up.
To FS's point, how many of the voting residents have million dollar lake homes?

The appeal from either side needs to be toward the voting center. They will be the ones that actually make such a decision.
In any of the voting districts, those are the people that actually set the policy and spending for the future.

So the $400K home owner that votes, may not want to spend $200 to $400 per year for something they feel they will never use.

Its all about appealing to the voters.
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Old 08-29-2022, 05:59 PM   #104
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The problem with stuff like this is once that door is opened the flood gates are loosed. Give them an inch....
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Old 08-29-2022, 07:36 PM   #105
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These things are inevitable as you move to a bedroom community.
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Old 08-30-2022, 09:53 AM   #106
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Posted earlier in this thread was that the NH average cost per public school student is $18000 and that Moultonborough spends $30,000. If those numbers are correct, then Moultonborough voters are not at all afraid of being big spenders. You just have to whine a little and say "It's for the children" and you get your votes.
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Old 09-06-2022, 11:09 AM   #107
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New preliminary tax assessments are just out in Moultonborough. From a sampling, looks like lakefront land increased 30.74%. With such large waterfront land changes, the burden for paying off the bonding on a project like the HUB further shifts onto the backs of those who do not vote ! All you need to do is "want" something and then get enough folks to support it on the basis that those who do not want or need it have to pay without any voice. When will logic and reason rule ???
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Old 09-06-2022, 11:30 AM   #108
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New preliminary tax assessments are just out in Moultonborough. From a sampling, looks like lakefront land increased 30.74%. With such large waterfront land changes, the burden for paying off the bonding on a project like the HUB further shifts onto the backs of those who do not vote ! All you need to do is "want" something and then get enough folks to support it on the basis that those who do not want or need it have to pay without any voice. When will logic and reason rule ???
When you say 30%, do you mean $.20 up from the $7 it currently is or 30% increase to assessed values?

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Old 09-06-2022, 12:53 PM   #109
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Waterfront land portion of assessed valuations appears up 30.74% vs last years assessed waterfront land values that are part of the total property assessed values. The tax mil rate per $1000 of valuation will be determined later in the year for the December billing.
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Old 09-06-2022, 01:24 PM   #110
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Our assessment is up 26%. Land assessment increased 31%.
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Old 09-06-2022, 02:23 PM   #111
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So what was the average increase?
Then you can tell if more shifted toward or away from you.
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Old 09-06-2022, 03:02 PM   #112
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So what was the average increase?
Then you can tell if more shifted toward or away from you.
This. Be curious to see.
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Old 09-06-2022, 03:36 PM   #113
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My assessment land up 30.7% and building up 16% ( have no idea why )
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Old 09-06-2022, 03:48 PM   #114
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I think all the newly assessed towns went up quite a bit due to the market being so expensive. When the new assessments came out in Tuftonboro, everybody was pretty worried because they went up by these kind of amounts both on the lake and off. Everybody is just hoping the rate is much lower- with such high assessments it certainly should be-at least this year. Next year if a lot more projects get approved by voters, and therefore spending goes up, who knows what will happen to our taxes.
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Old 09-06-2022, 03:54 PM   #115
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Not a lot of waterfront houses were on the market last year. At one point in sept there was one. Few waterfront houses raised the price but if sample is small is it valid . It doesn't look like they at all tyried to judge views etc since it seems the rising tide lifted all boats
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Old 09-06-2022, 08:09 PM   #116
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You could argue validity of the assessment.
There is a process.
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Old 09-07-2022, 04:58 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix View Post
Not a lot of waterfront houses were on the market last year. At one point in sept there was one. Few waterfront houses raised the price but if sample is small is it valid . It doesn't look like they at all tyried to judge views etc since it seems the rising tide lifted all boats
That's true. Very few for sale signs on the lake!!
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Old 09-07-2022, 07:44 AM   #118
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https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/ass...te-information
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Old 09-08-2022, 07:12 AM   #119
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Default New Assessments Get The Oxygen!!

*Moultonborough residents (year round / seasonal) take a look at the new "proposed" property assessments for 2023....the increases are staggering. We own a modest lake access home and our appraisal increased 26%! Nothing done in the way of improvements in the last 2 years....insanity! Perhaps the assessors are preparing for the inevitable housing bust?

No Lifeguards at our public beaches
No Swimming rafts
The Hub ?

Timing is everything.
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Old 11-18-2022, 11:20 AM   #120
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perhaps at some point there will be a "need" for an indoor 18 hole golf course
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Old 11-19-2022, 08:05 AM   #121
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From the minutes of the last selectman's meetings there was a discussion about using excess assessments to reduce the tax rate (had a large increase in assessed values) . Two wanted to leave the excess in additional reserve. The vote was 3-2 to reduce the tax rate. I wonder if the other two wanted to
increase in the reserve account for HUB. I am sure someone who was there might know.
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Old 11-19-2022, 08:29 AM   #122
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perhaps at some point there will be a "need" for an indoor 18 hole golf course
No kidding.
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Old 11-19-2022, 09:02 AM   #123
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The Nov.3, 2022 discussion on the Unassigned Funds from 2022 was an attempt by two board members to "review and refill" the Capital Reserves accounts. The Capital Improvements Program Committee reviews every year, anyway. $1.9 million is the number that was discussed for this year's surplus.

Quote:
I wonder if the other two wanted to
increase in the reserve account for HUB.
More than likely.

CR148, the Community Center capital reserve account is the only one draining/drained. The Hub group talked the select board to appropriate $23,000 a while back, from this account, to pay some contractors to find out how much the cost will be for The Hub. The last town annual report shows a balance of a little over $27,000. Almost gone. A citizen at the meeting mentioned (tongue-in-cheek) they might as well use the remaining $4,000 or so to get a study on the annaul cost of maintaining the pool.

The last annual report shows a balance a total of capital reserves of $5.3 million or so with about 29 accounts or so.

Yes ... after a year, use taxpayer money to find out how much it will cost to build The Hub. Presumption is in anticipation of the May town meeting petition for the Hub and bond.

The last select board meeting of 11/17/2022 was supposed to annouce the new tax rate. A NH DRA issue temporarily prevented this from happening but should come out soon. With the 3 out of 5 select board vote to reduce the tax rate rather than take the tax money and fill some capital reserves should bring the the tax from the present 6.98/1000 to 5.xx/1000.
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Old 11-28-2022, 08:38 AM   #124
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Moultonborough
Just got town eblast. Hope this tax rate is not a typo!

"Tax Collector: The confirmed Tax Rate for 2022 is $4.78. "

Year Total Municipal County Local Ed State Ed
2022 $4.78 $1.25 $0.80 $1.76 $0.97

2021 2022
$6.98 $4.78 Total tax rate

-$2.20$ -31.5%


https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...ory_-_2022.pdf

Last edited by longislander; 11-28-2022 at 08:42 AM. Reason: update
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Old 11-28-2022, 09:20 AM   #125
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well, it looks official. Good for selectmen Returning money to taxpayers
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Old 11-28-2022, 10:37 AM   #126
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When do assessment values change? Specifically, if residents paid half ($3.49) in July with a certain assessed value, will the assessed value be the same for the December bill?

And, if so, the equation will be assessment/1000 x 1.29, yes?

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Old 11-28-2022, 10:57 AM   #127
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The property tax year runs from April 1 through March 31. Property taxes are based on the assessed value of your property on April 1 of each tax year.

"The Town of Moultonborough bills twice each year. The first bill of the year is a partial payment, based on one-half of the previous year’s tax .,.. . This tax bill, printed and mailed out near the end of May, is usually due July 3rd every year."

"The tax rate is set in the fall of the year. The final bill is calculated using the new rate multiplied by your property’s assessed value as of April 1st less any payments made on the first bill. Printed and mailed in the middle to end of October, it is usually due December 1st each year. Interest at 8% per annum is charged on tax bills not paid by the due dates."

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/tax...illing-process


https://nhtaxkiosk.com/?KIOSKID=MOULTONBOROUGH
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Old 11-28-2022, 02:54 PM   #128
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so anyone whose assessed value that went up less than 31.5% should see a second half bill lower than the first half
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Old 11-28-2022, 02:58 PM   #129
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Depends ....

https://www.depend.com/en-us/
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Old 11-28-2022, 04:13 PM   #130
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Just got back in the house.
All kidding aside.
Just took a look at what my tax should be, if I'm doing this correctly:

old assessment X .00698 = old year tax = x 1/2 = last July tax, that I paid
new assessment X .00478 = new tax = x 1/2 = next tax for next July

This Dec tax:
new assessment X .00478 = new tax base less last July payment = this Dec.tax

Old and new assessments are on the town website property cards tax/gis.
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Old 12-01-2022, 10:12 AM   #131
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Default Moultonborough Tax Rate

Curious if anyone has been able thus far to validate if the discussed $4.78 number is in fact the new Moultonborough Tax rate?

Thank you in advance.
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Old 12-01-2022, 10:17 AM   #132
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The moultonborough tax collector has posted on the town website. See attached.

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...ory_-_2022.pdf
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Old 12-01-2022, 03:35 PM   #133
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The tax rate is absolutely meaningless. What is this year's tax levy versus last year's?
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Old 12-01-2022, 03:46 PM   #134
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i guess i a confused. The assessment for each property has been finalized .My taxes for the year will be my assessed value x the tax rate. so to me its very meaningful
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Old 12-01-2022, 05:19 PM   #135
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i guess i a confused. The assessment for each property has been finalized .My taxes for the year will be my assessed value x the tax rate. so to me its very meaningful
It is in that respect.

But the tax rate going up or down does not cause your tax bill to go up or down, the tax rate is merely a calculation that splits the levy among everyone.

The way that the tax collector in this town publishes the tax rate is not completely honest in my opinion. It gives the impression that taxes are going down. A more honest number would be to publish what the average value home will pay in taxes this year versus last year. I suspect the average tax bill increased this year unless something radical happened. The tax rate is meaningless.
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Old 12-01-2022, 05:51 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ITD View Post
It is in that respect.

But the tax rate going up or down does not cause your tax bill to go up or down, the tax rate is merely a calculation that splits the levy among everyone.

The way that the tax collector in this town publishes the tax rate is not completely honest in my opinion. It gives the impression that taxes are going down. A more honest number would be to publish what the average value home will pay in taxes this year versus last year. I suspect the average tax bill increased this year unless something radical happened. The tax rate is meaningless.
When I read in comments in light of earlier extensive threads on assessments prior to tax rates being published, it sounds like you're more focused on a political point than what the actual bills will be. The assessments are finalized, the rate is critical info for every homeowner.
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Old 12-01-2022, 08:33 PM   #137
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Quote:
The tax rate is absolutely meaningless. What is this year's tax levy versus last year's?
Tax Levy:IRS :
"A levy is a legal seizure of your property to satisfy a tax debt. Levies are different from liens. A lien is a legal claim against property to secure payment of the tax debt, while a levy actually takes the property to satisfy the tax debt."

tax rate X assessement = tax ... thank you! Keeps away the tax collector when paid.

Quote:
A more honest number would be to publish what the average value home will pay in taxes this year versus last year. I suspect the average tax bill increased this year unless something radical happened. The tax rate is meaningless.
When paying the town tax, most don't care about average tax bill. They care about their tax.
RE: Moultonborough, why not wait till the moultonborough taxes are sent out. Then see if tax went down. Then the conversations can begin on how "dumb" it was for the select board to return money back to the taxpayer, rather than spend on non-budgeted items.
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Old 12-02-2022, 07:28 AM   #138
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Quote:
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It is in that respect.

But the tax rate going up or down does not cause your tax bill to go up or down, the tax rate is merely a calculation that splits the levy among everyone.

The way that the tax collector in this town publishes the tax rate is not completely honest in my opinion. It gives the impression that taxes are going down. A more honest number would be to publish what the average value home will pay in taxes this year versus last year. I suspect the average tax bill increased this year unless something radical happened. The tax rate is meaningless.
That is done during the annual budget, when monies are actually being allocated for expenditure.

Assessments don't change the budgeted expenditures.
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Old 12-02-2022, 07:36 AM   #139
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since this has been turned down for years why do we continue to elect selectmen who want it
GOOD QUESTION !

How that woman got elected is beyond comprehension.

Many years ago I had a witch for a tenant.
But was advised by the witch that witches are "good" witches.
As in the vein of Laurie Cabot below.

LINK

Go figure !
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Old 12-02-2022, 07:49 AM   #140
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Two reason these people keep getting elected- either people don't know how they stand or they are part of the crowd that has their pet project.
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Old 12-02-2022, 09:56 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingScot View Post
When I read in comments in light of earlier extensive threads on assessments prior to tax rates being published, it sounds like you're more focused on a political point than what the actual bills will be. The assessments are finalized, the rate is critical info for every homeowner.
Please just read what I wrote and don't try to read my mind, you suck at it.
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Old 12-02-2022, 10:00 AM   #142
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Quote:
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That is done during the annual budget, when monies are actually being allocated for expenditure.

Assessments don't change the budgeted expenditures.
Exactly John, I've been saying this for quite a while. Budgets also need to be voted on for the spending to happen.

Publishing a graph that shows tax rates decreasing, which is totally meaningless, makes me wonder why the tax collector does it?
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Old 12-02-2022, 10:07 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longislander View Post
Tax Levy:IRS :
"A levy is a legal seizure of your property to satisfy a tax debt. Levies are different from liens. A lien is a legal claim against property to secure payment of the tax debt, while a levy actually takes the property to satisfy the tax debt."

tax rate X assessement = tax ... thank you! Keeps away the tax collector when paid.



When paying the town tax, most don't care about average tax bill. They care about their tax.
RE: Moultonborough, why not wait till the moultonborough taxes are sent out. Then see if tax went down. Then the conversations can begin on how "dumb" it was for the select board to return money back to the taxpayer, rather than spend on non-budgeted items.
Levy means to impose, such as impose a tax on the town.

Part of the problem is that people don't want to understand this stuff. Those who want to spend more money love that. Letting people think that rising real estate prices are the reason taxes rise is deceptive. It needs to stop.

The government should not collect one penny more than it needs, having a surplus is a result of very poor planning IMO.



Side note: Is there a multi quote function in this forum?
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Old 12-02-2022, 10:18 AM   #144
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Exactly John, I've been saying this for quite a while. Budgets also need to be voted on for the spending to happen.

Publishing a graph that shows tax rates decreasing, which is totally meaningless, makes me wonder why the tax collector does it?
I think the BOS started that.
In a City, the budget process is different than the towns... and I think the City Council wanted to somehow promote they were being conservative with tax dollars... even though the tax rate is actually not the real means to confer that.

I think the town BOS just followed along.

I would love to change town budget votes to some time right after people got a tax bill in the mail... that would really do the trick.
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Old 12-02-2022, 01:42 PM   #145
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Well for most its a drop ( my assessment went up 26% ) so this is a drop. i understand someone is paying more or at least.maybe new construction . of course John will role out his depends
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Old 12-02-2022, 02:57 PM   #146
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Longislander did the ''depends''.

I don't know what the overall valuation increased in Moultonborough... so I don't know if 26% is good, bad, or par.
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Old 12-02-2022, 04:43 PM   #147
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Overall valuation up 24.05%........(2022) $4,892,023,118 vs (2021) $3,943,560,976
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Old 12-03-2022, 07:39 AM   #148
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Sorry john you are correct
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Old 12-04-2022, 08:58 AM   #149
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Perhaps one of our current (or past) selectmen could weigh in here, maybe Chuck Mcgee?
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Old 12-07-2022, 06:40 AM   #150
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When do assessment values change? Specifically, if residents paid half ($3.49) in July with a certain assessed value, will the assessed value be the same for the December bill?

And, if so, the equation will be assessment/1000 x 1.29, yes?

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I thought the answer to this was that the assessments stay the same for July/December, but it appears that's incorrect and that the assessments stay the same for December and the following July—at least that's what my tax bills show.

Also, December tax bills are ready!

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Old 12-07-2022, 07:44 AM   #151
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I thought the answer to this was that the assessments stay the same for July/December
The do.

The assessmennts are effective as of April 1st ... April 1 to March 31

" ... all property taxes shall be assessed on the inventory taken in April of that year, ..."

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/V/76/76-2.htm


The tax rate changes for December

Go to this site. The assessment for both years should be there.

https://www.nhtaxkiosk.com/default.aspx




Since this thread started with "HUB status in Moultonborough", Moultonborough voters should be sure and take the survey:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1F...O4q1g/viewform

https://thehubmoultonborough.com/
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Old 12-07-2022, 08:07 AM   #152
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Exactly John, I've been saying this for quite a while. Budgets also need to be voted on for the spending to happen.
Budgets are voted on ... at town meeting. They can be changed there and modified etc. Some of us have motioned at the meetings, to change a lline item of the budget when the warrant article comes up, to change a number to 0 (zero). If majority vote agrees ... the line item changes to 0. Any other number or vote follows the same process.

Last edited by longislander; 12-07-2022 at 08:10 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 12-07-2022, 08:17 AM   #153
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My assessment for this (December) bill was higher than for the last (July) bill.

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Old 12-07-2022, 08:42 AM   #154
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The July and December assessments should be based in the April assessment.

Your property card on the town tax/gis map should show 2020, 2021, 2022 assessments on the right side.

https://www.axisgis.com/moultonboroughNH/

If you went to the tax kiosk, there should have been the 2021 and 2022 assessments at the bottom left of each invoice.

Or, maybe you should call the tax assessor and ask what are your assessments

Name Title Phone
Thomas P. Hughes Town Assessor (603) 476-2347 x315
Tracy Cragin Assessing Technician (603) 476-2347 x306

I might have posted this prior:

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/tax...illing-process
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Old 12-07-2022, 11:04 AM   #155
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Maybe I do not understand your first sentence, but the June bill is based on the prior year assessed valuations. It is not updated to the new assessments as of April 1st until the December bill.

Last edited by tummyman; 12-07-2022 at 11:05 AM. Reason: Clarification.
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Old 12-07-2022, 11:55 AM   #156
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Maybe I do not understand your first sentence, but the June bill is based on the prior year assessed valuations. It is not updated to the new assessments as of April 1st until the December bill.
Ok, that makes sense. I figured the April assessments would have been in place for the July bill.

Thanks!

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Old 12-07-2022, 02:06 PM   #157
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Quote:
the June bill is based on the prior year assessed valuations.
I believe it was due in July not June.
But, correcty, the 2022 first half-year tax bill was April 2021 assessment X 6.98/1000.

Maybe April of which year needs to be clearified. "Assessment" in any month, used in conversations can be confusing.

I may be wrong, but this December's tax bill is based on the April 2022 assessment x the new tax rate of the fall of 2022, less payments made against the 2021 assessment X old tax rate (2022 July bill). New tax rate doesn't happen till the fall which became 4.78/1000.

The tax that was due by 7/1/2022 was based on the April 2021 assessment x 6.98/1000 tax rate.

The December 2022 tax bill due 1/11/2023 is based on the April 2022 assessment x 4.78/1000 tax rate less payment on the July bill.

The July 2023 tax bill will be the April 2022 assessment x tax rate set in the fall of 2022 (4.78/1000)

Quote:
The tax rate is set in the fall of the year. The final bill is calculated using the new rate multiplied by your property’s assessed value as of April 1st less any payments made on the first bill.
https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/tax...illing-process


Now, getting back to The Hub thread... How many MoBo residents on this forum have taken the survey? Why aren't you asking what is :

Quote:
Would you vote in support of building The HUB as designed, if the impact to taxpayers was LESS than $0.36/$1000 of town assessed property value?
Try extrapolating "the cost" of the Hub from that number and what did they use for assessed value.

Isn't this fun!

Last edited by longislander; 12-07-2022 at 02:24 PM. Reason: typos
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Old 12-07-2022, 02:30 PM   #158
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Mea Culpa!

Please note the above references to tax bills should be adjusted to acknowledge that tax bills are half year cycles.
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Old 12-07-2022, 02:57 PM   #159
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Since this thread started with "HUB status in Moultonborough", Moultonborough voters should be sure and take the survey:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1F...O4q1g/viewform

https://thehubmoultonborough.com/
I just took the survey.

Two of the questions have to do with tax increases (paraphrased): "would you vote for the HUB for $.06/$1k or $.36/$1k" tax impact? That's a pretty sizable gap.

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Old 12-07-2022, 03:01 PM   #160
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From the town eblast I got today:

"Tax Collector: The Tax Bills were mailed from our Printing Company on Monday, December 5, 2022. Please be advised that amounts will be posted online no later than Thursday, December 8, 2022. The due date for the 2nd Half Real Estate Taxes is January 11, 2023. Should you have any questions, please contact the tax office."

The kiosk seems to have the bill; at least mine seems to be correct, including the veteran's discount.

https://www.nhtaxkiosk.com/default.aspx
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Old 12-07-2022, 03:37 PM   #161
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The .036/1000 relates to the building.
The .06/1000 relates to the operating costs ... allegedly.

The combination of the two, if correct, would give the annual cost, presumably for, say a ten year bond etc. (my guess).

The survey states " $0.36/$1000 of town assessed property value"

I did my home assessment and came up with a difference of $196 from my present annual tax and the added cost tax. I then attempted to extrapolate for a total cost to build. I have my number, but will wait till the Dec. 15 select board meeting when the proponents of The Hub are supposed to give an update on the survey. They will probably be asked, outright, what is the cost.There's a reason the absolute value of the cost (present value) is not on the survey.

You may already have, but here is valuations assigned by the NH DRA:

https://www.revenue.nh.gov/mun-prop/...-tax-rates.pdf

You'll note the valuations, total tax rate and total commitment.
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Old 12-07-2022, 03:48 PM   #162
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I just took the survey.

Two of the questions have to do with tax increases (paraphrased): "would you vote for the HUB for $.06/$1k or $.36/$1k" tax impact? That's a pretty sizable gap.

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The $.06 is for the annual operating cost and the $.36 is for the cost to build. I am sure that the HUB proponents know what the total cost will be and they will try to delay putting that figure out as long as possible. I think it will be huge. The survey is misleading to say the least. I responded to the survey and not in a nice way.
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Old 12-07-2022, 04:01 PM   #163
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While not attacking The Hub proponents ... but ... they approached, and the town granted $23,000 from capital reserves to get a cost. My underestanding is two contractors were approached and one complied. They have a cost, I believe.

How "good" is the estimate and the estimators?

Some folks in town have guessed @ $15-20 million.

The number I came up with, playing with my assessment, is in that ballpark, depending on assumptions, give or take a $million or two.
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Old 12-08-2022, 08:01 AM   #164
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Much discussion on assessments, but liittle talk on total tax rates. The two give the tax bill (semi-annual) that hits the wallet.

In Moultonborough, the tax rate went from $6.98/1000 to $4.78/1000 thanks in part to the $1.8 million returned (municipal) to the taxpayers. Thanks to Tummyman for being the "tip of the spear" that got that going. The select board finally followed town policy #32 keeping 12.5% for unassigned funds and still gave the $1.8 million back to the taxpayers.

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...alance2015.pdf


Will the tax rate go up next year ... maybe. Will the Lakes Region real estate prices come down after this crazy year and bring assessments down... who knows.


The four components of the total tax rate all went down this last billing cycle:

Moultonborough:

2021 2022 $ change % change

Municipal $2.23 $1.25 -$1.08 -46.4%
County $1.01 $ .80 -$ .21 - 20.8%
Local Edu. $1.97 $1.76 -$ .21 -10.7%
State Edu. $1.67 $ .97 -$ .70 -41.9%

Total
Tax rate $6.98 $4.78 -$2.20 - 31.5%


https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...ory_-_2022.pdf



Now ... for The Hub!
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Old 12-08-2022, 08:30 AM   #165
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When you look at the total assessed valuation for the town, $.06 cents per thousand valuation equates to approx. $300,000 of annual operating costs.That is a lot of added money to the town expenses for a facility that seems like a want and not a need. We already have a community center and a lot of unused school gym space. And there is no guarantee that this is even a reasonable number. And there is no plan on offsetting any of these costs with usage / membership fees. So the real cost may be a whole lot more.

Concerning the estimate of costs, remember it was TOWN money that was used to get the cost estimate BUT there is no disclosure by the town. Why is this information being withheld from the public??? Who has determined that taxpayers cannot see the detailed information now? So taxpayers fund the cost to get an estimate but the HUB people get the results. And there was supposed to be at least two estimates but now only one?? So this one estimate is now the gold standard? There is no guarantee on anything unless the HUB gets a firm quote to build.
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Old 12-08-2022, 08:51 AM   #166
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Design/Build would always be firm.
But you really don't know what you will get for the money until it is done.
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Old 12-08-2022, 09:26 AM   #167
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The $23,000 was requested and granted from capital reserves (CR148), town funds. How much spent? Town activity is subject to Right-To-Know requests, RSA 91-A. Whether done by design or otherwise, the Hub proponents (503- c 3) is probably not under the town umbrella and not subject to RTK. If the town has a copy of the estimate (more than likely) that could be RTK.

Also,

4.78/1000 + .36/1000 + .06/1000 X town assessed property value = added cost to munipal tax rate
4.78 + .36 + .06 = new rate
4.48 + .36 + .06 = 5.2 (all /$1000)

new rate X town valuation = new tax commitment

$5.2/$1000 X $4,892,023,118 = $25,438,520

new tax commitment less old commitment = difference for Hub
$25,438,520 less $23,355,110 = $2,083410

Added $2+ million for the build and annual operating cost cost!!!???

Let's say it is a 10 year bond or something ... can this be anywhere right???
Like, a $20 million 10 year bond at ?% interest???

My logic, if not my math, is probably faulty.

Oh well ... someone will probably ask for a cost number at the Dec15th meeting.


https://www.revenue.nh.gov/mun-prop/...-tax-rates.pdf
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Old 12-08-2022, 09:55 AM   #168
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It seems to be that there are two separate groups involved in promoting the Community Center. The first is Friends Of The Moultonborough Community Center; this is a nonprofit corporation formed in NH.
See
https://quickstart.sos.nh.gov/online...inessID=714337

The second is The HUB Moultonborough Community, Activity and Aquatic Center. The HUB recently changed the pretentious “Centre” to “Center”. As best I can tell, the HUB is not registered with the NH Secretary of State. It appears from the HUB webpage that donations go to the Friends of the Moultonborough Community Center. See

https://thehubmoultonborough.com/

The HUB webpage describes the HUB as “The HUB Community Center Working Group is comprised of six private citizens brought together by Mark Borrin and Kim Johnson to establish a focus on a needs-based approach to design, construct and equip a town owned Community center in Moultonborough.” The HUB webpage also states that “The group was formed privately as an off-shoot of the 2021 town meeting Article #16 – an article to create plans and cost estimation for building a Community Center in Moultonborough. The group has worked privately and has been presenting its findings to the Moultonborough Select Board periodically.”
So what entity got the approximately $23,000 to fund the estimate? Did the Town pay for it directly or did the money go to The Friends Of The Moultonborough Community Center or the HUB? Seems to me it should be easy enough to track the expenditures from whatever account it was disbursed.
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Old 12-08-2022, 10:45 AM   #169
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I believe you are correct ... two separate groups. The Friends etc. is an LLC created to get donations under 501(c)(3) and get the donations.

"a 501(c) organization may not allow its donors to write off donations while a 501(c)(3) organization lets its donors take tax deductions on their contributions."

The Hub is promoted " ... to establish a focus on a needs-based approach to design, construct and equip a town owned Community center in Moultonborough."

Principals of both organizations are the same (not all of them, though).

It is accepted that the Thursday, May 11, 2023 Town meeting (second session) scheduled for 6:00 PM will have a warrant article for the Hub. It is no longer on Saturdays.The select board has the legal right for this. The town legislative body votes on which month; March or April or May. Will this be a petiitioned article or an article submitted by the select board without a petition for the Hub (judging by comments made at BoS meetings). Some may feel, if the select board puts it in, it will be more convincing, rather than a petition.

It is more than likely The Hub group principals, since the $23,000 is not a donation and the town hopefully didn't get involved with tax deduction of public money. Another interesting angle pointed out in the past might be for those who donated in 2022 and will claim 2022 tax deductions. The 501(C)(3) has stated in the past it would return the donations if the build fell through. That wouldn't happen till 2023. Means what ... 2022 tax return amendment or risk an IRS audit?


See section C of these BoS minutes:
https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit..._8.18.2022.pdf
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Old 12-08-2022, 10:49 AM   #170
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From the minutes of the 8-18-22 BOS meeting (emphasis added):

"C. Moultonborough Community Centre (“The Hub”) construction cost estimator proposals: Chairman Quinlan reviewed the agenda report to approve proposals from vendors, Castagna and CONESTCO for the purpose of completing a con-struction cost estimator to build a community center, today known as “The Hub.” Further, that vendors use the Moultonborough Community Center sche-matic design created by Stewart Associates Architects. Ms. Kim Johnson, 201
Page 4 of 6
Moultonborough Neck Road reported that cost quotes include finalizing costs for early 2023 so that there are more solid numbers for Town meeting. Cur-rently, there is $27,411 in the fund and they have fund raised approximately $35,000. Chairman Quinlan said that they need the plans from February 2022, project #2018.131. Ms. Diane McArthur, 57 Long Point Road asked questions on cost, maintenance, staffing, energy requirements to name a few and came from a place where they had an aquatic center. She asked about phasing, and Ms. Johnson said that phasing resets the construction project; during various community meetings, it was the residents who expressed their desire for a pool. Discussion ensued.
Motion: Selectman Beadle To approve both proposals from vendors, Castagna and CONESTCO for the purpose of completing a construction cost estimator to build a town community center, today known as the Hub. Further, proposal from Castagna Consulting group for $12,250 and with a not to exceed proposal from CONESTCO for $10,800. Both expenditures are to be distributed from the Community/Senior Center Capital Reserve Fund as presented and to authorize the Town Administrator to sign and that all communications go through the Town Administrator. Chair Quinlan added for project #2018-131 from Stewart Architects and that they use the February 2022 drawings. Seconded: Vice Chairman Colby Vote: 4 – 1 Selectman Quinlan opposed.
Motion passed."

So if all communications on the estimate are to go through the Administrator, why are they not subject to a Right to Know Request?
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Old 12-08-2022, 11:13 AM   #171
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Quote:
So if all communications on the estimate are to go through the Administrator, why are they not subject to a Right to Know Request?
Good point!
They probably are!
Leads right back to a BoS warrant article and not a petition.

Should also note from the minutes:

Vote: 4 – 1 Selectman Quinlan opposed.
Motion passed.


Also,
I believe it has been said somewhere that only one contractor provided info.
Could it be CONESTCO?

http://conestco.com/

http://conestco.com/id5.html
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Old 12-08-2022, 01:33 PM   #172
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Quote:
From the minutes of the 8-18-22 BOS meeting (emphasis added):
From the agenda for the 8-18-22 meeting:

See pages 40, 41 and 42

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...nda_packet.pdf
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Old 12-08-2022, 03:05 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longislander View Post
The .036/1000 relates to the building.
The .06/1000 relates to the operating costs ... allegedly.

The combination of the two, if correct, would give the annual cost, presumably for, say a ten year bond etc. (my guess).

The survey states " $0.36/$1000 of town assessed property value"

I did my home assessment and came up with a difference of $196 from my present annual tax and the added cost tax. I then attempted to extrapolate for a total cost to build. I have my number, but will wait till the Dec. 15 select board meeting when the proponents of The Hub are supposed to give an update on the survey. They will probably be asked, outright, what is the cost.There's a reason the absolute value of the cost (present value) is not on the survey.

You may already have, but here is valuations assigned by the NH DRA:

https://www.revenue.nh.gov/mun-prop/...-tax-rates.pdf

You'll note the valuations, total tax rate and total commitment.
These numbers maker it interesting, and also understandable from the proponents perspective. If a person expects to use the facility regularly, even once/month or two, then $200/year (and presumably $1200 up front) is a no-brainer.

Of course, for those who do not expect to use it periodically, especially if on a fixed income...
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Old 12-08-2022, 03:54 PM   #174
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I always wondered this concept...

Explain ''fixed income''.

Inflation goes up 10%... SS goes up 10%... and working labor wages go up 3-5%.

Medicare goes up 10%, and a limit kicks in... market medical insurance goes up 10%... and workers lose their health insurance.

I think we ''overplay'' the ''fixed income'' a bit.
It isn't like many seniors couldn't go back to work... they just don't want to.
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Old 12-08-2022, 08:05 PM   #175
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Here we go!

Quote:
Explain ''fixed income"

I think we ''overplay'' the ''fixed income'' a bit.
It isn't like many seniors couldn't go back to work... they just don't want to.
Today 03:05 PM
Explain fixed income:
Simple: that income which an individual can provide himself/herself (cognizant reflexive pronouns) into day-to-day activities to survive in that same society, or continue to exist in a norm deemed acceptable, in some semblance of societal acceptance, let alone self-respect, and deemed "worthy".

Not everyone has "benes". I'm fortunate to have some (many). No gifts ... I worked for them; in industries (plural) and including close to two years in Vietnam with the 189th Assault Helicopter Company, Army, (doorgunner in UH-1 and school-trained in Avionics)(in Vietnam, May 1967-Feb.1969, Pleiku, Central Highlands) supposedly fighting for our democracy, which is actually a republic.

I'm 75 years young and living comfortably in Moultonborough (have property/2nd home since 1974) on fixed income ... SSA ... pension ... RMD. I don't need my RMD and would rather not be required to take it out. I have more trouble figuring out what to do with my RMD.

Are you?

Bring it up again when you're my age.
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Old 12-09-2022, 12:51 AM   #176
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But your income is not ''fixed'' if it adjusts for inflation... the real world doesn't do that. Hence why real wages are down.
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Old 12-09-2022, 07:51 AM   #177
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Quote:
But your income is not ''fixed'' if it adjusts for inflation... the real world doesn't do that. Hence why real wages are down.
Quote:
Of course, for those who do not expect to use it periodically, especially if on a fixed income...
Most of us understood what was meant and in what context.

FlyingScot didn't say "fixed" but "fixed income".

Google "fixed income", or better yet Google "fixed income definition" and see what you get.

Here's Merriam Webster dictionary for"fixed income":
" having a uniform or relatively uniform annual income or yield
bonds and preferred stocks are fixed-income securities
inflation has its hardest impact on such fixed-income groups as people who have retired on social security"



Ya, ... I suspect you didn't mean investments ...google "fixed income" anyway and see.

You have no idea of my income, "fixed" as in "static" as I believe you intended.

"Adjustments to inflation" are varied. Those on Social Security just got a COLA. Ask many of them if their Soc Sec. income is still "fixed" relative to living expenses ... or actualy went down substanstially relative to inflation. Does "fixed" count if living expenses skyrocket?

The thread conversation was evolving about relative costs to a proposed town tax increase, not a literal definition of a word ... "fixed" ... but subject to interpretation.

Wages are not the same as income. Are wages down:

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/realer.nr0.htm

How about layoffs and bankruptcies?
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Old 12-09-2022, 10:02 AM   #178
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"fixed income" when truly an inflation-adjusted income... is an oxymoron. Especially when using it to infer that retirees are in more of a financial bind than the employed population.

It is like crying wolf... and why many times they are voted against.
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Old 12-09-2022, 10:32 AM   #179
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Quote:
... is an oxymoron
You've got it half-right.
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Old 12-14-2022, 01:28 PM   #180
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In the agenda packet for the Board of Selectmen's meeting tomorrow the "Cost Estimate" for the HUB is included, along with an estimate of operating costs. I have not been though it yet, but note that the cost is estimated to be $14,243,515 if I read it correctly.

See12_15_22_bos_agenda_packet Cost Estimate.pdf
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Old 12-14-2022, 02:27 PM   #181
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Build cost: $ $14,243, 415
Operating cost: $394,432 less $125,000 income = $269,432

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit..._3-14-2022.pdf

Agenda packet:

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...nda_packet.pdf

Agenda pages 6-27 are the Architects, Stewart Associates, build
specifications.


Pages 28-44 are Conestco's probable costs
Agenda page 28 is summary of cost
Agenda pages 29-43 is detail of Conestco opinion of probable build cost
Agenda page 44 is Conestco probable annual operating cost and income
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Old 12-14-2022, 02:29 PM   #182
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hope someone goes to the meeting to give us a report. Hard to believe that this size of unnecessary project could get thru the town meeting .
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Old 12-14-2022, 02:32 PM   #183
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Not all "fixed income" is a government program. There are pension schemes that are fixed income, people rely on things like annuities too. Even Social security, with it's increases should still be considered a fixed income. Adjusting for inflation does not increase the spending power. In fact, many would argue that inflation indices used to quantify inflation aren't even close to reality.
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Old 12-14-2022, 02:35 PM   #184
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hard to believe you can run this facility for less that 400K
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Old 12-14-2022, 02:48 PM   #185
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Quote:
hope someone goes to the meeting to give us a report. Hard to believe that this size of unnecessary project could get thru the town meeting .
I'm usually there for the select board, two business meetings per month, but not the work sessions.

Looking at the agenda and The Hub is scheduled for section VI, A, and depending on how long the badge ceremony lasts (Section III,A) I'd guess around 4:10-4:20 PM or so is when the Hub part of the meeting should come up. presumption is the proponents of the Hub will go to the mike and give an update.

If you have time, go to the stream and watch the stream live.

https://townhallstreams.com/towns/moultonborough_nh
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Old 12-14-2022, 08:51 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ITD View Post
Not all "fixed income" is a government program. There are pension schemes that are fixed income, people rely on things like annuities too. Even Social security, with it's increases should still be considered a fixed income. Adjusting for inflation does not increase the spending power. In fact, many would argue that inflation indices used to quantify inflation aren't even close to reality.
But when you are using it to imply that the working population isn't hurting like those with inflation-adjusted retirement incomes, it is going to fall on very deaf ears.

Especially since the working population is seeing their incomes increase at a slower rate than the ''fixed'' incomes. I see it every day. We have a lot more working poor *yes - I know that is considered not PC currently* than we wish to admit to.
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Old 12-14-2022, 11:10 PM   #187
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What I'm confused about is regarding the Conestco cost $14,512,847 relative to the survey questions and town valuation.

Survey:
Quote:
Would you vote in support of building The HUB as designed, if the impact to taxpayers was LESS than $0.36/$1000 of town assessed property value?
Quote:
Would you vote in support of building The HUB as designed, if the annual operating costs after construction, had an impact to taxpayers of LESS than $0.06/$1000 of town assessed property value?
($.36/$1,000 + $.06/$1,000) of the survey X town assessed value $4,892,023,118 (without the added Hub cost) is:

.00042 X $4,892,023,118 = $2,054,650

If the survey is factoring a bond somewhere, it would be unusual for a town to have less than a ten year bond at some % interest.

$2million + a year for ten years would be in the $20 million+ range, not $14.5 million of the Conestco quote.
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Old 12-14-2022, 11:29 PM   #188
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The bond would not include the operating cost... just the build cost.

.36/1000 x 4,892,023,118 = 1,761,128.32

The value of the HUB does not come into play as town property is not in the total assessment, it is treated as a non-profit devoid of property taxes.

The above figure using a 10 bond would make the bond value vary with the interest rate to be paid.

A mortgage calculator estimates that would be about a 4% bond rate using 10 years as the term.
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Old 12-15-2022, 08:02 AM   #189
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I agree about the operating cost not being part of the bond.

The two numbers were just to highlight the expense to the town and let folks play with the numbers. They are both paid by the taxpayers ... at some point.

The Hub building is not a non-profit. The 501C(3) non-profit (HUB Community Center Working Group) is a group formed to get funds for a new town building, on town property. They are a separate entity. The building (not the group) would then be added to town assets.

I introduced a bond into the thread since bonds were not mentioned in the survey nor costs estimates (at least I didn't notice). I do not disagree with your estimate of the bond. Why haven't you included your calculations, or at least the link to the calculator you used?

https://www.nhmbb.org/

https://www.nhmbb.org/images/pdfs/Fi...eries_C_OS.pdf

In the past (almost annually) the recreation center warrant article on the town warrant has been by petition. It appears that this attempt is to have the select board submit by appropriation, not petition. Might look better coming from the governing body.

The debate/vote at town meeting will be " for, school crowd" v. "against, seniors" to get the 3/5ths majority vote to approve the warrant article (usually one article including bond).

The seniors might ask why ten years. Why not 29 years. Let the younger crowd pay longer since they will enjoy a lot longer before the building is paid off. A floor motion to amend the bond, presuming there is one (I "presumed" the bond into this thread) could cause more confusion at town meeting.

I did send this to the select board and town moderator.

RE: bonds.
Dated NHMA article; 2012
"Thus, any amendment to a bond article must satisfy not only RSA 39:2, but must also not change the “subject” for purposes of RSA 33:8-a, I. There are no Supreme Court cases on the scope of permissible amendments of a bond article. Given the level of scrutiny, amendments to bond articles should be treated conservatively. Check with bond counsel if an amendment is anticipated."

https://www.nhmunicipal.org/town-cit...e-town-meeting
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Old 12-15-2022, 09:37 AM   #190
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Calling the building a ''town asset'' doesn't change the fact that town property is not assessed for taxation purposes.
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Old 12-15-2022, 09:39 AM   #191
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Quote:
The value of the HUB does not come into play as town property is not in the total assessment, it is treated as a non-profit devoid of property taxes.
I agree. I misunderstood your comment. The Hub will become a town asset, but town assets are not taxed.
The town will still need to pay for the building/bond, however through, taxation.

What is the relevance of the $.36/$1000 assessment relative to the $14,512,847 bond, if a bond? Where did the $.36/$1000 come from.

Quote:
The bond would not include the operating cost... just the build cost.
.36/1000 x 4,892,023,118 = 1,761,128.32
The $4,892,023,118 is total valuation. The total Tax effort is $23,355,110
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Old 12-15-2022, 09:44 AM   #192
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or a liability depending on your prospective. Also, the estimate is not binding, and the cost could be higher if approved and goes out to bid as everything is going up including interest rates
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Old 12-15-2022, 10:37 AM   #193
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Agree with phoenix.

Also,

Did this one more thing before heading out:

https://www.bankrate.com/mortgages/a...on-calculator/

Loan amount: $14,243,415
Loan term: 10 Years
Rate: 4%
Loan start date: Dec 2022 (just for this exercise not 2023)


Results I got:

Monthly payment: $144,208
Total Interest paid: $3,061,503
Total cost of loan paid: $17,304,918
Payoff date: Dec.2032
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Old 12-15-2022, 10:52 AM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longislander View Post
I agree. I misunderstood your comment. The Hub will become a town asset, but town assets are not taxed.
The town will still need to pay for the building/bond, however through, taxation.

What is the relevance of the $.36/$1000 assessment relative to the $14,512,847 bond, if a bond? Where did the $.36/$1000 come from.



The $4,892,023,118 is total valuation. The total Tax effort is $23,355,110
Estimated annual bond premium (principal and interest) based on term and rate using a mortgage calculation divided by the total property valuation declared in a cost per thousand of valuation. $14.5M over 10 years at around 4% is about .36 per thousand.
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Old 12-15-2022, 10:54 AM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longislander View Post
I agree. I misunderstood your comment. The Hub will become a town asset, but town assets are not taxed.
The town will still need to pay for the building/bond, however through, taxation.

What is the relevance of the $.36/$1000 assessment relative to the $14,512,847 bond, if a bond? Where did the $.36/$1000 come from.



The $4,892,023,118 is total valuation. The total Tax effort is $23,355,110
They could play with the term to keep the annualized cost in-line corresponding to the estimate of .36 per thousand.

A project that is design/build in general already has the contractor so it doesn't go to bid. That is the bid; and the price is locked.
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Old 12-15-2022, 11:29 AM   #196
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Just heading out the door to Concord but should be back for the 4:00 PM meeting.

Annualized cost should be part of the annual budget, as in a contractual, monetary town responsibility.

Valuation sets the tax rate, but the town budget is part of the tax effort, I believe. Town Tax effort divided by Town Valuation = Town tax rate.

I suspect a "build contractor" RFQ would go out in the spring/summer if the town approves the warrant article. The one of two "cost contractors" Conestco (the other did not meet requirements set) does not appear "big" enough to get the job done.

I would agree price is locked when the town and contractor have signed a contract.
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Old 12-15-2022, 11:36 AM   #197
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It does become part of the annual budget.
But because it is a bond premium... it isn't open to being adjusted.

I am not sure how they would word an open bonding amount.

Maybe bond up to... but not really sure.

Most often the design/build locks the number and then the amount is bonded at the next town budget vote or denied.
That process is then either dropped or repeated again for the next cycle until the bond warrant passes.
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Old 12-15-2022, 11:59 AM   #198
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Still waiting for the wife. Maybe this where the survey numbers come from:

Just noticed bond monthly payment: $144,208 X 12 months = $1,730,496 annual payments

$1,730,496 annual payment divided by $4,892,023,118 valuation = .0003537 or .03537/1000

Close enough to " $.036$/1000 of town assesed property value "impact to taxpayers" .
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Old 12-15-2022, 01:10 PM   #199
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Sitting here waiting for the wife to get out of her appointment. I don't usually take my laptop but did today and noticed a typo in last post.

Quote:
$1,730,496 annual payment divided by $4,892,023,118 valuation = .0003537 or .03537/1000

Close enough to " $.036$/1000 of town assesed property value "impact to taxpayers" .
Should be $.36/$1000 not $.036/$1000
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Old 12-15-2022, 03:33 PM   #200
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Back in MoBo and getting ready for the meeting.

If it's $1,730,496 added to the town tax effort, then:

Present municipal Tax effort $6,144,066 and add $1,730,496 = $7,874,562 is new municipal tax effort.

$1,730, 496 added to $23,355,110 ( present total tax effort, Municipal + County + Local Ed. + State Ed.) = $25,085,606 new total tax effort

The municipal $7,874,562 divided by $4,892,023,118 (Valuation) = 1.61/1000 town tax rate. Present tax rate is 1.25/1000

Total tax rate is presently 4.78/1000. New rate is 5.14/1000
1.61 + .80 + 1.76 + .97 = 5.14
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