Kayak Cut in Half in Meredith

[ITD]

A guy at Shep Brown's told me a kayak was cut in half last night at 1:30 am by a power boat. The kayak was supposedly out with no lights. The powerboat didn't stop. No one was injured, the kayak couple was over at Shep's this morning looking for the boat. I'm thinking they should be renamed to Mr and Mrs Bonehead if they were out on a kayak at night with no light, lucky to be alive.

[Lakewinniboater]

I agree whole heartedly! No common sense

[hazelnut]

So this "couple" was over at Browns looking for the boat that hit them?!?! FOR WHAT? To tell them "hey we're the IDIOTS who were Kayaking at NIGHT with no lights, that you hit."

I have no experience in this but my guess is that hitting a Kayak at night might feel like hitting a large wake or debris in the water. Who's to say the power boat operators didn't think they hit a log or cruiser wake.

[WeirsBeachBoater]

But What possesses someone to go out with no lights at night? Beyond that a kayak is so low in the water that they are hard to see in the daylight! Again I am glad no one was injured, but I find fault with the operator of the kayak plain and simple!

[sa meredith]

While I certainly agree with the posts written here, let's not excuse the power boat captain completely. There is never an excuse that makes it "OK" for a boater to hit something in the water. Even at night, you need to watch what is in front of you.

[idigtractors]

Originally Posted by ITD

A guy at Shep Brown's told me a kayak was cut in half last night at 1:30 am by a power boat. The kayak was supposedly out with no lights. The powerboat didn't stop. No one was injured, the kayak couple was over at Shep's this morning looking for the boat. I'm thinking they should be renamed to Mr and Mrs Bonehead if they were out on a kayak at night with no light, lucky to be alive.

That bolded, underlined word is a very large word. It could also say the kayak supposedly had lights on it.

[B R]

Originally Posted by idigtractors

That bolded, underlined word is a very large word. It could also say the kayak supposedly had lights on it.

do you really think they had a legal stern light? i think it's at least safe to say they didn't have "legal" lights. red/green and stern light 3' (?) above
the largest occupants head? probably not.


if you look at all the accidents and deaths this year, canoes and kayaks certainly top the list in "most dangerous/unsafe boating vessel".

[Gavia immer]

It was cut in half by a powerboat.....with no injuries? Was it occupied or adrift?

[SteveA]

Originally Posted by Gavia immer

It was cut in half by a powerboat.....with no injuries? Was it occupied or adrift?

This story dosn't seem right. Dosn't pass "it could be possible" test

1) " A guy at Shep Brown's told me a kayak was cut in half last night at 1:30 am by a power boat." What guy...?

2) " Noone was injured, the kayak couple was over at Shep's this morning looking for the boat. I'm thinking they should be renamed to Mr and Mrs Bonehead if they were out on a kayak at night with no light, lucky to be alive."

If their kayak was "cut in half" ... how did noone get injured, how did they get to shore? And.... after that drama... why did they decide to go to Shep Browns looking for the villian..instead of the MP or Police?

3) Who in their right mind is on the lake.. power boat or kayak at 1.30 am..?

Story sounds fishy to me. No offense intended ITD This one misses the smell test..

I just looked at the Citizen website.. ( and they report "cat up a tree") no mention of a kayak cut in half.

[idigtractors]

Originally Posted by B R

do you really think they had a legal stern light? i think it's at least safe to say they didn't have "legal" lights. red/green and stern light 3' (?) above the largest occupants head? probably not.

This is a question and no I do not know the answer being the reason for asking. Do small craft such as a row boat, kayak need lights or can the operator just us a flash lite? I have on many occasions gone fishing with a row boat and a electric motor and used just the small lite on the motor as my lites. That is not saying I was in the right, that is the reason for the question. And before you ask, no you did not need to register the boat with an electric motor at the time. That tells ya how long ago it was.

[NightWing]

A canoe, kayak or rowboat (no motor) would only need to display a white light, visible 360° around the horizon for a distance of two miles.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by SteveA

This story dosn't seem right. Dosn't pass "it could be possible" test

1) " A guy at Shep Brown's told me a kayak was cut in half last night at 1:30 am by a power boat." What guy...?

2) " Noone was injured, the kayak couple was over at Shep's this morning looking for the boat. I'm thinking they should be renamed to Mr and Mrs Bonehead if they were out on a kayak at night with no light, lucky to be alive."

If their kayak was "cut in half" ... how did noone get injured, how did they get to shore? And.... after that drama... why did they decide to go to Shep Browns looking for the villian..instead of the MP or Police?

3) Who in their right mind is on the lake.. power boat or kayak at 1.30 am..?

Story sounds fishy to me. No offense intended ITD This one misses the smell test..

I just looked at the Citizen website.. ( and they report "cat up a tree") no mention of a kayak cut in half.

Wouldn't try to fool ya Steve, just telling what the guy at Shep's told me, I didn't see it, I wasn't there, hence the supposedly, we'll see, if it did happen some crack reporter will eventually find the story.

As for who would be on the lake at 1:30 am , you're kidding right?

[SteveA]

LOL

Guess it's been too long for me to be on the lake that late.... sigh.. stinks getting old!

If we wait for crack reporters here in the LR... you'll be too old to be on the lake @ 1.30AM

[dan]

One went by our house about 10:30. No lights. Bright moon allowed us to see it going by. They are out there.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by ITD

"...just telling what the guy at Shep's told me, I didn't see it, I wasn't there, hence the supposedly, we'll see, if it did happen some crack reporter will eventually find the story...".

I don't think so. The last time a kayaker was reported struck on this lake, it rated only a brief blurb on a Boston radio station.

If the kayak is valued at less than $2000, and no injuries resulted, a report to the Marine Patrol isn't required either.

Originally Posted by dan

One went by our house about 10:30. No lights. Bright moon allowed us to see it going by. They are out there.

Not just bright, the moon would have been directly overhead at that hour and would have been a full moon.

With or without a handheld lamp, there should have been enough danger heard and sighted to have enabled a kayaker to paddle out of harm's way: been there, done that.

[Lakegeezer]

Going kayaking in the moonlight is one of the special moments you can have on the lake. While you should take a light with you, turning it on ruins the mood and visibility. Taking risks is one of the spices of life.

[SAMIAM]

I agree with Steve that the story is a little fishy.Things get exaggerated when the story gets retold.I'd want a first hand account before I would buy into a boat being cut in half while no one was injured.
Unless,of course it was a 1000HP Baja doing 90 mph.....we'd all believe that for sure.

[NightWing]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

Going kayaking in the moonlight is one of the special moments you can have on the lake. While you should take a light with you, turning it on ruins the mood and visibility. Taking risks is one of the spices of life.

Not turning it on breaks the law and could result in shattered lives.

[The Big Kahuna]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

Going kayaking in the moonlight is one of the special moments you can have on the lake. While you should take a light with you, turning it on ruins the mood and visibility. Taking risks is one of the spices of life.

I am all for the spice of life and taking the big risks, good for you to voice your opinion and say to hell with playing it safe. Having said that my spice of life is riding around the lake in a rather good size power boat. Should our paths cross enjoying what we both agree is a zest for life, I hope we will be able not occupy the same space at the same time, and we will both continue to enjoy the lake at special times in our own seperate ways.

[Kamper]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

... There is never an excuse that makes it "OK" for a boater to hit something in the water. Even at night, you need to watch what is in front of you.

Even in daylight people hit debris. I think your statement is over-broad and not realistic. Unless you run with dock lights, on or continously using a spot light you are not going to able to see much in the water at night, probably not even at headway speed. If you meant it's "never ok to ram another boat" I'd have to agree with that.

An unlighted kayak blends in with the water unless it's silhouetted by another light. I've almost hit one myself coming into a private dock. I believe you dont have to have a light turned on when operating a muscle powerred vessel at night but it does have to be accessibe so you can make your presence known.

As for hitting something major and not stopping, I think that was defintly wrong-doing on the part of the motor-boat operator. I'm sure it would be more noticible than a large wake. If they simply didnt realise at that time there was another craft involved it would have been prudent to inspect for damage to their own boat and drive. I hope they find the operator. Someone defintly needs some clarification on how to behave on the water.

[MAINLANDER]

No word of it in any news outlet, no one at sheps herd such a story, I call bs.
Bear Island resident maybe???

[macshpman]

Just watched news nine and they talked about it happening last night

[NightWing]

Originally Posted by Kamper

I believe you dont have to have a light turned on when operating a muscle powerred vessel at night but it does have to be accessibe so you can make your presence known.

Sorry, the light must be displayed and visible for 360° around the horizon for a distance of 2 miles.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by macshpman

Just watched news nine and they talked about it happening last night

As stated above, the AP has reported the story but with very few initial details.

Once again you can peruse the short article HERE on today's on-line edition of the Union Leader.

By the way, love or hate the editorial slant of the Union Leader they are by far the best and most accurate source of breaking news here in New Hampshire!

IMHO

[ITD]

Ah vindicated, I didn't think the Shep's guy was BSing. Apologies accepted

[Kamper]

Originally Posted by NightWing

Sorry, ...

http://boat-ed.com/nh/handbook/lights.htm

You are correct. I have a mental picture of a rowboater waving a lantern that must have come from a safety course I took many many years ago. The current rule is smarter.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Kamper

http://boat-ed.com/nh/handbook/lights.htm

You are correct. I have a mental picture of a rowboater waving a lantern that must have come from a safety course I took many many years ago. The current rule is smarter.

As Nightwing correctly stated, the vessel in question should have been displaying a single white light visible for two miles in all directions.

Here is the applicable Administrative Rule:

Saf-C 403.16 Lights on Non-Power Boats.

(a) Boats propelled by oars, paddles or other human or natural device except sails, operated on any public water, shall, between sunset and sunrise, display one white light in a conspicuous position, so placed as to show all around the horizon.

The two mile requirement is found in a subsection of the preceding rule that basically states white lights shall be visible for two miles and all other colored navigation lights (if required) visible for one mile.

[Silver Duck]

The 1:30 AM timing is not surprising; I've seen boats going in and out of the town docks at all hours of the night and in all kinds of weather (even thunder storms ).

Actually, I can't wait for the MP to start enforcing the 25 mph night time limit on Wednesday. From what I've seen over the years, it should be easy pickings for them.

As for the bonehead in the kayak, I'm glad he wasn't injured, but I hope the MP wrote him a jumbo ticket for his idiocy.

Silver Duck

[wildwoodfam]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

Going kayaking in the moonlight is one of the special moments you can have on the lake. While you should take a light with you, turning it on ruins the mood and visibility. Taking risks is one of the spices of life.

Having a BIGGER boat cut your kayak in half - and - seriously injuring and/or killing its occupants.

THAT - well - yeah - it'd be a buzz kill for sure and would ruin the mood.

THINK Geezer - C'MON!!!!!!

[wildwoodfam]

do they KNOW that for sure? It would suggest that they have the powerboat(er) in question. I am quite sure the kayaker wasn't counting feet as they sliced his kayak!

I am amazed that nobody was injured!

Harkens back to mey earlier post - PAY ATTENTION!!!!

[Gavia immer]

Originally Posted by Kamper

I hope they find the operator. Someone defintly needs some clarification on how to behave on the water.

Behaving on the water means maintaining a proper watch. Suppose the kayak was within 150 feet of shore, he wouldn't be earning a ticket to my thinking.

[jrc]

Kamper, you would be right in coast guard controlled waters but NH has a stricter rule.

Rule 25 in part:
...
A vessel under oars may exhibit the lights prescribed in this rule for sailing vessels, but if she does not, she shall have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision.
...



Gavia, there is no provision to allow dark running near shore, two wrongs...

[WeirsBeachBoater]

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

Actually, I can't wait for the MP to start enforcing the 25 mph night time limit on Wednesday. From what I've seen over the years, it should be easy pickings for them.

They will only be enforcing that 25 mph at night in the specified zones. Also there is a lot of people that are misinformed telling boaters that there is in fact already a speed limit. Which is not true at all. I have heard from two different individuals that were at establishments in Meredith and Wolfeboro.

[Kamper]

Originally Posted by Gavia immer

... Suppose the kayak was within 150 feet of shore, he wouldn't be earning a ticket to my thinking.

The kayak in your scenario is still a boat covered by boat regs any time it's in the water. The MP might ignore a pool toy in daylight, close to shore but if you take an inner tube that far out you can expect negative attention if you don't have a PFD. A kayak, canoe, rowboat, or any boat without adequate lights, might as well be a mine. Just another hazard to navigation.

Not all factory installed lights are adequate either (imo). Boaters should leave their lights on at the dock some night and walk off a bit. Those little dime-size green/red lights aren't the attention getters you might want them to be.

Also, it looks like I implied there was only one person needing a talking to but I'm not overly sympathetic to the kayaker either. I'm glad no one got hurt but that was luck. He might as well have been playing Russian Roulette.

Originally Posted by jrc

Rule 25 in part: ... which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision. ...

As I remembered it, the woman was rowing and the guy was smiling as he waved the lantern!

[Island Life]

Originally Posted by Kamper

Not all factory installed lights are adequate either (imo). Boaters should leave their lights on at the dock some night and walk off a bit. Those little dime-size green/red lights arent the attention getters you ight want them to be.

Can't agree more. I was following a white light last night, not quite knowing which direction he was going because he appeared to have no bow lights. Only when I got pretty close did I see a faint green light. I've always assumed my own were sufficient but now I will check. Can you have brighter bow lights retrofitted?

[NightWing]

The visibility requirement for red/green bow lights is 1 mile.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Skip

"...By the way, love or hate the editorial slant of the Union Leader they are by far the best and most accurate source of breaking news here in New Hampshire...!"

From the article:

"Spitzer's kayak had no lights."

Does the reporter know if the kayak wasn't equipped with lights, or that Spitzer didn't have a light displayed?

Dang reporters....

[SteveA]

Originally Posted by ITD

Ah vindicated, I didn't think the Shep's guy was BSing. Apologies accepted

I will never question you again!

[Lakegeezer]

Originally Posted by wildwoodfam

Having a BIGGER boat cut your kayak in half - and - seriously injuring and/or killing its occupants.

THAT - well - yeah - it'd be a buzz kill for sure and would ruin the mood.

THINK Geezer - C'MON!!!!!!

You probably don't want to be out where boats are zipping by without having the proper illumination available. Staying in protected coves or within 150 from shore should keep you fairly safe with enough time to reach shore if you see Captain Bonehead or the MP coming. Yes, it is an infraction, but then so is going 75 on route 93.

[wildwoodfam]

and I promise I won't go 75 on 93! At least when we are goin in the southbound direction (that's headed for home) -

[codeman671]

I have heard a rumor that the kayaker was naked??? Anyone else hear this? I was told that it was mentioned on WOKQ this morning.

You have got to be kidding me...A naked white butt, although it may be visible up to two miles away is no replacement for a white navigation light.

[Kamper]

Originally Posted by Island Life

... Can you have brighter bow lights retrofitted?

Yes. You should be able to find compatible lights in any boat catalog or boat part store. Some of them are plain and some are fancy. I changed mine myself.

Good luck!

[SAMIAM]

You are vindicated......saw it on channel 9 this a.m......sorry I doubted you.

[Fish]

[QUOTE=Silver Duck]
Actually, I can't wait for the MP to start enforcing the 25 mph night time limit on Wednesday. From what I've seen over the years, it should be easy pickings for them.

According to the Citizen the PILOT program will not be starting until later in August.

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...226/-1/CITIZEN

[Old Hubbard Rd]

MEREDITH, N.H. -- A kayaker from Vermont had a terrifying close call when a boat sliced his kayak in two on New Hampshire's Lake Winnipesaukee this weekend.

The Marine Patrol said Stephen Spitzer, 46, of Brattleboro, was kayaking around 1 a.m. Saturday when a 27-foot powerboat ran over him, cutting the front part of the kayak off.


Spitzer's kayak had no lights. No one was hurt.

[WeirsBeachBoater]

I am sure that the operator was TERRIFIED to see a kayak in front of him with no lights... I guess I just have a problem that the powerboater seems to be written up as the bad guy. We can all agree that all boaters have to keep a proper lookout, but a kayak out admittedly at night with no light! Again I think the article shouldn't have the slant that the boater is to blame. Shame on the kayak operator, and thank goodness no one was hurt. Why can't the article read A boater on lake winni had a terrifying close call when he struck a kayak at 1 am???? The kayaker was operating illegally with no lights, thankfully no one was injured.

[Weirs guy]

Stephen Spitzer to earn a Darwin Awards Honorable Mention? I'm not trying to pick on the guy, but my 9 year old knows better then to be out after dark in a kayak with no lights.

[Excalibur]

I have to admit, I have been out on moonlit nights in the canoe with the lights off. I know I am taking a risk and sometimes do bonehead things every so often. But I try to hide in the shallows within 25 ft of shore and behind some large boulders for protection. There are a lot of nice portable lights out there for small craft and with the new LEDs they are very bright and use low power.

I have one that has both red and green led lights and a white stobe. Even though its made in China, its a great thing to have on board, even as a backup.

http://store.seattlesportsco.com/pro...&idproduct=139

[NightWing]

Originally Posted by Excalibur

I have to admit, I have been out on moonlit nights in the canoe with the lights off. I know I am taking a risk and sometimes do bonehead things every so often. But I try to hide in the shallows within 25 ft of shore and behind some large boulders for protection. There are a lot of nice portable lights out there for small craft and with the new LEDs they are very bright and use low power.

I have one that has both red and green led lights and a white stobe. Even though its made in China, its a great thing to have on board, even as a backup.

http://store.seattlesportsco.com/pro...&idproduct=139

The law requires "proper" lighting for the type of vessel it is displayed on. Neither red/green nor a strobe light are proper lighting for your boat.

[pmj]

NightWing said:

The law requires "proper" lighting for the type of vessel it is displayed on. Neither red/green nor a strobe light are proper lighting for your boat.

Nightwing: Are you saying that portable lights are not legal?? If I have a dead battery and I use portable r/g light afixed to my bow and a white portable afixed to my stern then I am not legal? Why wouldn't these be proper? I wasn't aware of this.

[Irrigation Guy]

Originally Posted by pmj

NightWing said:

Nightwing: Are you saying that portable lights are not legal?? If I have a dead battery and I use portable r/g light afixed to my bow and a white portable afixed to my stern then I am not legal? Why wouldn't these be proper? I wasn't aware of this.

I beleive nightwing was referring to a canoe or kayak in the quote. The red/green on the bow and all around white above the red/green are appropriate for a power driven boat and sailboat under auxilliary power.

[Aquadeziac]

On the 11pm news last nite there was a pic of the offending kayak. It wasn't cut in half actually,more like a couple feet lopped off one end. The passenger compartment looked intact. It looked in the pic like it was just a one passenger kayak.

[Aquadeziac]

Overton's and West Marine both have replecement LED lights for red, green and white marker lights. They are advertised as many times brighter than regular marker lights.
heres an example:
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs...&classNum=null

[NightWing]

Originally Posted by pmj

NightWing said:

Nightwing: Are you saying that portable lights are not legal?? If I have a dead battery and I use portable r/g light afixed to my bow and a white portable afixed to my stern then I am not legal? Why wouldn't these be proper? I wasn't aware of this.

I didn't say that portable lights are not legal. I said that the light unit described did not represent proper lighting for his canoe.

A canoe need display a white light that is visible for 360° around the horizon for 2 miles. That is the requirement for a manually powered vessel. Red and green are navigation lights for a power boat. In no case is a white strobe light considered proper lighting.

As a point of interest, those short, suction cup mounted white lights are not adequate because they do not show above the operator and therefore are not visible for 360° around the horizon. If you must use one, mount it on a pole and keep fresh batteries on hand.

The act of gliding along in the dark with your fanny at water level in an unlit boat is absolutely insane. If you want to stargaze in the dark, do it from shore. If you want peace and tranquility in dark water, run a bath and soak by candlelight. The chances of getting run over by a 300 horsepower meat cleaver on shore or in your tub are very small indeed.

I almost hit a canoe operated by a husband and wife several years ago. The canoe was dark green to blend in with everything. They were wearing dark clothing and were crossing a river, perpendicular to shore. Pitch dark, no moon, nothing to indicate they were there. They didn't even call out as a warning, just kept paddling along to cross right in front of me.

When I finally saw them, they were probably 5 feet in front of me. I slammed into reverse so fast I took half the river over the transom. They looked at me and continued to paddle to shore.

I won't go into great detail about what happened after, but I gave them a verbal Boating Ed lesson that they probably heard in the next county.

They didn't even have the decency to offer bathroom tissue so I could clean up..................................

Don't drive a boat at night without proper lights.....................please.

[Mink Islander]

Originally Posted by LocalRealtor

I beleive nightwing was referring to a canoe or kayak in the quote. The red/green on the bow and all around white above the red/green are appropriate for a power driven boat and sailboat under auxilliary power.

I think you're confusing what is appropriate with the "minimum required by law"

Per the Boat-ed website for NH:

If less than 23.0 feet (7 meters) long, these vessels should:

If practical, exhibit the same lights as required for unpowered vessels less than 65.6 feet in length. (Mink Islander: meaning have the typical required lighting of bow lights and white stern light that you see on a sailboat)
If not practical, have on hand at least one lantern or flashlight shining a white light as shown in Figure 3.

Of course the rules may be different if you're butt naked in your vessel -- or perhaps should be. Maybe a "flashing" white light would be appropriate after all.....

[Mink Islander]

You raise a great point about the height of stern lights. I replaced the one on my old whaler Montauk two years ago because the one it came with (used), was only a couple feet higher than the gunwales and just higher than the top of the center console. Legal, but barely, I suspect. Problem is that my boat has a dodger that when raised, was nearly as high as the center console and I was concerned that my stern light was not visible from the front in all situations. So I replaced it with a 4 ft one.

I saw a small boat this weekend whose stern light was not visible when approaching it head on. Made me think I made a good decision....

[Lin]

Originally Posted by idigtractors

This is a question and no I do not know the answer being the reason for asking. Do small craft such as a row boat, kayak need lights or can the operator just us a flash lite? I have on many occasions gone fishing with a row boat and a electric motor and used just the small lite on the motor as my lites. That is not saying I was in the right, that is the reason for the question. And before you ask, no you did not need to register the boat with an electric motor at the time. That tells ya how long ago it was.

We have two canoes and four kayaks and we all have the stern and bow lights. They have the extention for 3'. Have had them for years, usually we don't use them as we are back in shore on time. However, if we have gone on an extended paddle, we toss them in, just in case we get back after dusk. I think in about ten years we've only had to use them maybe 3x. I agree kayaks are low in the water and sometimes hard to see but we love them. We usually stay pretty close within the 150' rule of land,(just so we don't conflict with power boats we choose to follow the shoreline mostly over rocks and shallower water) however we oftentimes have to cross over a bay and attempt to do it at it's narrowest point and usually pick a time when there aren't a parade of boats traveling through. I'm not going to blame everyone out there but I have to say, that even being within the 150' or a no wake zone with the canoe or kayak, we've had some scary moments with fast boats and large wakes ignoring the rules.

[Coastal Laker]

I don't know if any of you feel the same way we do... my husband and I have both noticed an increased number of boats operating at night with either no bow lights or no stern light. It's beginning to get scary.

On Friday night, we drove from Meredith to the Weirs to watch the fireworks. A boat passed us that had no all-around light. As soon as we couldn't see the green light anymore, the boat vanished. With the lights ahead at the Weirs, my husband did all he could to keep track of where that boat went as he could barely make out the reflection of the boat's wake. He kept his eye on the boat's wake while I kept an eye out for the rest of the boat traffic.

Then on Sat night we went out for dinner on the lake and saw a jet boat doing donuts 30 ft from the docks and it had no stern light either. Fed up, we called the MPs and they did indeed come and stop the offending boat. They were caught some distance out from shore and were escorted back in. No sympathy here for the MPs ruining their evening. They could have ruined plenty more.

If a boat is out on the lake and loses it's lights, has no spare bulbs, or otherwise can't get them working, someone should shine a light on the boat so it can be seen with either a good flashlight or spot light... and NOT drive down the middle of the bay full sprint around other boats. UGH!

If they people in the kayak were truly without lights, they are lucky to be alive.

[NightWing]

Originally Posted by Mink Islander

I think you're confusing what is appropriate with the "minimum required by law"

Per the Boat-ed website for NH:

If less than 23.0 feet (7 meters) long, these vessels should:

If practical, exhibit the same lights as required for unpowered vessels less than 65.6 feet in length. (Mink Islander: meaning have the typical required lighting of bow lights and white stern light that you see on a sailboat)
If not practical, have on hand at least one lantern or flashlight shining a white light as shown in Figure 3.

Of course the rules may be different if you're butt naked in your vessel -- or perhaps should be. Maybe a "flashing" white light would be appropriate after all.....

We were talking about canoes and kayaks.

Saf-C 403.16 Lights on Non-Power Boats.

(a) Boats propelled by oars, paddles or other human or natural device except sails, operated on any public water, shall, between sunset and sunrise, display one white light in a conspicuous position, so placed as to show all around the horizon.

[Silver Duck]

Fish & WeirsBeachBoater

Sorry, I read the story about the delay after I posted. And, yes I'm aware that the limit is only in two areas of the lake.

As I've stated many times, I'm not in favor of a daytime speed limit, but a night time limit is a diferent story. I boat at night a lot, and my slip is close to the Lovejoy Sands public docks, so I get to see a great many boats going, IMHO, way too fast for the prevailing conditions (unless the operators somehow acquired Superman's X-ray vision! ).

I wouldn't at all mind having the MP slow a few folks down a bit after dark (personally, I never go on plane after dark and wouldn't unless there was a medical emergency aboard!)

By the way, does anybody know where the collision occurred (other than just "Meredith"?)

Silver Duck

[Gavia immer]

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

I am sure that the operator was TERRIFIED to see a kayak in front of him with no lights

A wayward swim raft would also have no lights.

Except for the length of his 27' boat, there's a lot we don't know about this operator. How fast would a big powerboat need to be travelling to chop through only one end of a kayak? Was he impaired? Did he leave because he was impaired? Was he navigating by GPS? That night had calm water, low traffic, a full moon and very clear visibility.

[NightWing]

Originally Posted by Gavia immer

A wayward swim raft would also have no lights.

Except for the length of his 27' boat, there's a lot we don't know about this operator. How fast would a big powerboat need to be travelling to chop through only one end of a kayak? Was he impaired? Did he leave because he was impaired? Was he navigating by GPS? That night had calm water, low traffic, a full moon and very clear visibility.

The wayward swim raft normally wouldn't be occupied, would be close to shore and wouldn't be required by law to display proper lighting.

Regardless if the water was calm, traffic low, a full moon and clear visibility, the fact remains that a vessel was operating during the hours of darkness, between sunset and sunrise, without displaying proper lighting. The operator was at extreme risk of being killed.

[WeirsBeachBoater]

Originally Posted by Gavia immer

A wayward swim raft would also have no lights.

Except for the length of his 27' boat, there's a lot we don't know about this operator. How fast would a big powerboat need to be travelling to chop through only one end of a kayak? Was he impaired? Did he leave because he was impaired? Was he navigating by GPS? That night had calm water, low traffic, a full moon and very clear visibility.

I was curious as to how the boater was found. They mentioned the size of the boat, so I did some digging, and as I suspected, the media is not telling the whole truth. As I understand it, there was no hit and run, in fact the boater assisted the kayaker, and brought them to shore, leaving with them their complete info. As the damage to the kayak was well under the needed amount to create a reason for MP to get involved, they were notified after the fact. So basically in a nutshell, reckless Kayaker, scared boater, did the right thing, glad no one was hurt, end of story.

[Mink Islander]

Originally Posted by NightWing

We were talking about canoes and kayaks.

Saf-C 403.16 Lights on Non-Power Boats.

(a) Boats propelled by oars, paddles or other human or natural device except sails, operated on any public water, shall, between sunset and sunrise, display one white light in a conspicuous position, so placed as to show all around the horizon.

But it doesn't say you can't have bow nav lights on Kayaks or Rowboats or canoes in addition. In fact and the Boat-Ed quote I gave you is straight from the training -- something Joe Q boater is far more likely to be familiar with than line and literal verse of the RSA. It's pretty plain English and also seems to be common sense. I can't imagine an MP citing you for a violation if you had full bow and stern nav lights on a kayak, rowboat or canoe, can u? Geez.

[jrc]

Just please don't put a strobe on your kayak. I'm going to thinks it's a flashing light for naviagtion.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Mink Islander

But it doesn't say you can't have bow nav lights on Kayaks or Rowboats or canoes in addition. In fact and the Boat-Ed quote I gave you is straight from the training -- something Joe Q boater is far more likely to be familiar with than line and literal verse of the RSA. It's pretty plain English and also seems to be common sense. I can't imagine an MP citing you for a violation if you had full bow and stern nav lights on a kayak, rowboat or canoe, can u? Geez.

Just to clarify a few misconceptions here.

While the Boat-Ed courses are great they are very generic in detail and the NH course has a number of errors in it. What Joe Q. boater needs to be familiar with is the Administrative Rules & RSAs that govern his boating conduct as these are the regulations that a law enforcement officer will be utilizing on a stop. Trust me, a response of "but that's not what they told me at Boater's ED" isn't going to get you very far out on the water!

Secondly, the Administrative Rule cited, Saf-C 403.16 contains a key legal phrase...."shall, between sunset and sunrise, display one white light in a conspicuous position, so placed as to show all around the horizon."

The operative legal word here is "shall". Therefore, if any other lights are displayed that are considered navigational lights, in particular red/green bow lights, then you are in violation of this Administrative Rule and can be cited for same. The defense of "it doesn't say I can't have extra lights" will not apply here because of the distinct legal phrasing!

Common sense tells me that there are very distinct and rational reasons why different classifications of vessels are required to display different combinations of navigational lights, to help operators of other vessels determine what's out on the water around them. Therefore you are very likely to be cited if you draw enough attention to yourself to be stopped for a violation and are discovered to be displaying a combination of navigational lights that you think is in your best interest but does not comply with applicable regulations.

Of course you could always tell the nice MP officer that you got the idea from the great folks over at Winnipesaukee.com , I'm sure that will let you off the hook!

[Kamper]

Originally Posted by jrc

Just please don't put a strobe on your kayak. I'm going to thinks it's a flashing light for naviagtion.

Right. Nav lights have accepted and specific meanings. Strobes are special purpose indicators. Misusing a type of light can be confusing and result in a hazardous situation just like using no lights or inadequate lights.

Here are some of the strobe meanings that I am aware of. This list might not be complete and may not be completely accurate.

Yellow/amber - Surfaced submarine.

Blue - Police function.

Red -- Fire safty function.

White - Man-Overboard beacon. PFD strobe. Life-Raft/Life-Boat beacon.

Additionally, some bouys use these same colors. Aviaton collision safety beacons near water may also cause some confusion.

Getting back to the kayak... It looks like we have more details. Does any one have link with the updated story?

[Mink Islander]

I looked at 3 different sites that claim to explain the boating req's in NH. Skip, I agree that 2 of these are general sites and use common language that suggest they're just copying Coast Guard req's. However, the site noted below (and in my earlier post) is the official site supported by the NH Department of Safety and has the same Nav Light req's as the other two.

From the home page:

Welcome to the official boating safety course developed for the New Hampshire Department of Safety. By passing the online exam, you will be well-prepared to pass the proctored final exam that is required to fulfill your obligation under the law.

This link has the specific nav light discussion:

http://www.boat-ed.com/nh/course/p4-9_navlights.htm

Also, from this site, you can take an online exam to get pre-cleared to then take the proctored exam without having to sit through the class.

I guess we should tell Marine Patrol that their instruction regarding nav lights is inconsistent with actual NH law....

Wondering what's on the boater certification exam since this is a topic I would hope actually gets tested.

[jrc]

Kamper, good list.

On Winnipesaukee every numbered marker has a white strobe. At night that's how I navigate. Find the flash and run towards it, then pass it on the safe side. A strobe is a target.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

"...I was curious as to how the boater was found. They mentioned the size of the boat, so I did some digging, and as I suspected, the media is not telling the whole truth..."

'Curious as to how "length of boat" returns "the whole truth"....

"The whole truth" is a winnowing process—especially if you were to start at post #1 here.

1) The kayak was cut in half—but only a portion of the bow is gone.
2) Two were rescued—but the kayak shown on TV was a single-seater.
3) It was a hit-and-run—but the boat came to their rescue.



That "digging"—was it a different boating forum? (e.g., BoatUS, Donzi-Registry, KayakSport?)

[jrc]

Just in case you want further confusion on lights for non-power boats, look at the rules themselves: http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rules/saf-c400.html

In section Saf-C 403.17 it shows drawings of running lights and the row boat, canoe and small sailboat all show a man holding a lantern. The drawings are tiny but undeniable.

Also, in Coast Guard controlled waters a non-powered boat may exhibit the same red and green lights required by sailboats.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

I was curious as to how the boater was found. They mentioned the size of the boat, so I did some digging, and as I suspected, the media is not telling the whole truth. As I understand it, there was no hit and run, in fact the boater assisted the kayaker, and brought them to shore, leaving with them their complete info. As the damage to the kayak was well under the needed amount to create a reason for MP to get involved, they were notified after the fact. So basically in a nutshell, reckless Kayaker, scared boater, did the right thing, glad no one was hurt, end of story.

Hmmm, different story than what I got, just wondering who you got it from? Certainly is better than a hit and run.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

I was curious as to how the boater was found. They mentioned the size of the boat, so I did some digging, and as I suspected, the media is not telling the whole truth. As I understand it, there was no hit and run, in fact the boater assisted the kayaker, and brought them to shore, leaving with them their complete info. As the damage to the kayak was well under the needed amount to create a reason for MP to get involved, they were notified after the fact. So basically in a nutshell, reckless Kayaker, scared boater, did the right thing, glad no one was hurt, end of story.

Please post where your information came from. From what I saw yesterday it seems like the media was leaving it rather gray, giving the misconception that it was just another reckless boating accident on a dangerous lake.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Mink Islander

...I guess we should tell Marine Patrol that their instruction regarding nav lights is inconsistent with actual NH law....

Wondering what's on the boater certification exam since this is a topic I would hope actually gets tested.

I agree with you 110%.

Nowhere else in the State can I find the general inconsistencies that occur regularly when it comes to NH boating nad navigation regulations, although snowmobile & ATV regulations and their concurrent confusing state of explanation & implementation run a close second!

Thankfully there is a well perused site like this where folks can rationally discuss many of these issues and learn from each other and our experiences!

[Sue15]

We had picked up a friends daughter who was working in Meredith Harbor at 11PM and then visited a friend who had just purchased a new camp on Bear Island. On the way back to Meredith we hit the kayak because they didn't have any lights on. It was the scariest nite of our lives! We will be forever grateful they were ok. We stopped and they were insistent that they didn't want a ride back to their camp-come to find out they didn't even know where it was. They did not have life perservers on. It took us at least 15 minutes by boat to get to their dock and they were at least a half mile off shore. The front third of his kyack was severed-we retrieved it put both their kayaks in our boat and made sure they were alright and home safely. We would like to urge everyone to please observe boating safety rules, wear life persevers, use lights starting at dusk and maybe stay near the shore in non motored craft at night. Many of us have not slept since this incident early Saturday morning. The Marine Patrol gentlemen were wonderful and understanding but it will never take the awful memories away of what might have happened. Sue

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Sue15

We had picked up a friends daughter who was working in Meredith Harbor at 11PM and then visited a friend who had just purchased a new camp on Bear Island. On the way back to Meredith we hit the kayak because they didn't have any lights on. It was the scariest nite of our lives! We will be forever grateful they were ok. We stopped and they were insistent that they didn't want a ride back to their camp-come to find out they didn't even know where it was. They did not have life perservers on. It took us at least 15 minutes by boat to get to their dock and they were at least a half mile off shore. The front third of his kyack was severed-we retrieved it put both their kayaks in our boat and made sure they were alright and home safely. We would like to urge everyone to please observe boating safety rules, wear life persevers, use lights starting at dusk and maybe stay near the shore in non motored craft at night. Many of us have not slept since this incident early Saturday morning. The Marine Patrol gentlemen were wonderful and understanding but it will never take the awful memories away of what might have happened. Sue

Thanks for sharing, that must have been horrifying. I can't even imagine...

[hazelnut]

MY GOD!

Not only did they take their lives for granted that night, they almost destroyed your lives. I couldn't imagine the awful feeling I would have if I had taken someone's life even if it wasn't my fault.

Thanks for sharing the story and I am glad everyone was ok.

[SAMIAM]

Good for you for doing all the right things to help out the kayakers.That must have been some scary!
By the way.....was there any damage to your boat?

[Sue15]

No, thankfully there was no damage to the motor boat we were on. There were young adults who were quite traumetized and none of us adults slept that nite. whew am I glad no one was hurt. Thanks for all the kind remarks that we did the right thing-it's hard to think straight in a situation like that but we couldn't leave them in the middle of the lake!!

[ITD]

Sue, good for you, God was with those people that night, you should rest easy, you obviously did all you could and did the right thing.

[Kamper]

SUE15, Thank you for filling us in on the whole story.

[WeirsBeachBoater]

Sue's first hand account matches pretty well with what I had heard.

I will take that apology now APS.

[SteveA]

Originally Posted by ITD

Sue, good for you, God was with those people that night, you should rest easy, you obviously did all you could and did the right thing.

I agree with ITD... you went above and beyond... and did all you could. Be proud of that.. some people in that type of situation would not have done all that you did.

[ITD]

Hey, I wonder if they were in Sea Kayaks?

[ApS]

Originally Posted by jrc

"...In section Saf-C 403.17 it shows drawings of running lights and the row boat, canoe and small sailboat all show a man holding a lantern. The drawings are tiny but undeniable..."

Those drawings appeared full-page in the NH Boating Handbooks of the 90s, before New Hampshire boaters' guides received their glossy covers and misleading photographs. (And printed/edited in Dallas, Texas instead of New Hampshire).

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

"...Sue's first hand account matches pretty well with what I had heard. I will take that apology now APS.

How does my question differ from this one or this one?

OTOH, I think Bear Island residents are owed an apology.

IMHO, based on one Winnipesaukee-kayak-cut-in-half account at an Internet speedboat site yesterday, we are still vacuuming around "the elephant in the living room".

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

Thank you Sue15 for sharing the information with the forum.

Would you please tell us the type of boat you were in and about how fast (or slow) you were going.

Thanks

[Gavia immer]

Originally Posted by NightWing

The wayward swim raft normally wouldn't be occupied, would be close to shore and wouldn't be required by law to display proper lighting.

Regardless if the water was calm, traffic low, a full moon and clear visibility, the fact remains that a vessel was operating during the hours of darkness, between sunset and sunrise, without displaying proper lighting. The operator was at extreme risk of being killed.

The captain is required to maintain a proper watch regardless. He also may not display lighting that interferes with his capacity for night operations and keeping a proper watch.

While one or both kayaks violated visibility regulations, the captain is responsible that a proper watch is kept and responsible for the safety of his passengers and crew. Unlighted kayak, raft, island, shoal or cruiser, conditions that night were ideal for the captain to avoid a collision. A captain cannot pick and choose what he may collide with.

[Winnipesaukee]

I haven't read past post 6 or so, but I'll say one thing: I smell alcohol.

[jrc]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Those drawings appeared full-page in the NH Boating Handbooks of the 90s, before New Hampshire boaters' guides received their glossy covers and misleading photographs. (And printed/edited in Dallas, Texas instead of New Hampshire).

The facts seems to indicate that this boat operator had no lights whats-so-ever. So the nuances of what flavor of lights he should have had are moot. Using that issue to somehow justify his actions is a weak position. It does support my opinion that everyone on the water should be required to take the safety course.

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

IMHO, based on one Winnipesaukee-kayak-cut-in-half account at an Internet speedboat site yesterday, we are still vacuuming around "the elephant in the living room".

If this incident is all the boat banners have left. Maybe common sense may yet prevail. A speed limit to protect this guy would be about 5 MPH. If you make the argument that he doesn't need lights, then why does anyone?

[michael c]

Originally Posted by Gavia immer

The captain is required to maintain a proper watch regardless. He also may not display lighting that interferes with his capacity for night operations and keeping a proper watch.

While one or both kayaks violated visibility regulations, the captain is responsible that a proper watch is kept and responsible for the safety of his passengers and crew. Unlighted kayak, raft, island, shoal or cruiser, conditions that night were ideal for the captain to avoid a collision. A captain cannot pick and choose what he may collide with.

Yes , when it comes to responsibilities "the buck stops here " on the captain . But your answer is akin to blaming the man in charge of operating a locomotive with 10 or 100 cars behind him for running over an idiot asleep on the railroad tracks. The kayakers had no right being there,were breaking many of our boating laws and only by the Grace of God are they alive .
the captain of this boat deserves a "round of applause" and not a negative word otherwise . To to do anything else or to suggest that he /she is partly at fault is simply inappropriate and insulting to the captain and simple human logic....But then, there is an entire group out there in our society that thinks that there is always someone else to blame . "hey , I have lung cancer because i smoked butts for 25 years ...i think I'll file a suit against the tobacco companies " while they have been telling everyone who will listen that smoking causes cancer..... The fault must fall on the person who acted
irresponsibly....that would be,by 99 % of the American public,the kayakers
I am very happy that no one suffered serious injury.There was injury caused that night: to the people operating and riding in the boat...they will never forget that night and I am sorry for that . they don't deserve that.....

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Gavia immer

The captain is required to maintain a proper watch regardless. He also may not display lighting that interferes with his capacity for night operations and keeping a proper watch.

While one or both kayaks violated visibility regulations, the captain is responsible that a proper watch is kept and responsible for the safety of his passengers and crew. Unlighted kayak, raft, island, shoal or cruiser, conditions that night were ideal for the captain to avoid a collision. A captain cannot pick and choose what he may collide with.

I pretty much agree with you but, and it's a big but ( ) when you're out at night w/o a light I really can't blame the power boat. That far out from shore I'd be expecting any non-fixed hazards to do their part by having some lighting. I'm not sure where the collision occured but the Moon might not have been illuminating that spot at that time. I believe it set about 3:30 that AM. Maybe more info from Sue will follow.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by jrc

"...The facts seems to indicate that this boat operator had no lights whats-so-ever. So the nuances of what flavor of lights he should have had are moot. Using that issue to somehow justify his actions is a weak position. It does support my opinion that everyone on the water should be required to take the safety course..."

Whether the kayakers had the best in required lights, no lights, or dead batteries, the kayakers had the benefit of a full moon to assure visibility among boaters sharing the lake. We've seen where the absence of a full moon was used to dismiss responsibility for a previous infamous Winnipesaukee collision.

Just this year so far, we have seen a tragedy resulting with a boy from Massachusetts, adults from Vermont, and still another boy from Massachusetts making LR headlines. What happens when we read of multiples? (Which could have happened here).

We also point to the required safety course as a factor in boaters abandoning this form of recreation altogether—nationwide. That slow boaters may be all dummies doesn't relieve the rest of lake boaters of responsibility.

Even when the safety course is taken, New Hampshire has unique safety circumstances.

Originally Posted by jrc

If this incident is all the boat banners have left. Maybe common sense may yet prevail. A speed limit to protect this guy would be about 5 MPH. If you make the argument that he doesn't need lights, then why does anyone?

We've seen that even savvy forum members will try to enjoy what remains of our Winnipesaukee wilderness heritage. Our Vermont visitors weren't all that savvy, and were lucky that the collision didn't involve one of Winnipesaukee's even more formidable players.

A sensible limit like 25-MPH could forestall an even more extreme measure like Indiana's. In that state, when you put on your navigation lights, you must proceed at 10-MPH—even on the Great Lakes in that state's jurisdiction!

We don't know if the visiting kayakers could have been spared their ordeal even being rules-compliant, but how is "unlimited limits" the answer?

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

"...Maybe more info from Sue will follow..."

It's been awhile, and indications are they are not forum regulars. I have implicit trust that WeirsBeachBoater (who is a daily forum regular and provided the first, most complete, account of this collision—including apparently a witness for the speedboat) will be providing what we seek.

Originally Posted by jrc

"...If this incident is all the boat banners have left..."

Nobody's banning boats, common sense isn't common, and it's not "all that's left". It's unfortunate, and even with reduced boat traffic, we could see yet what drove Indiana's legislators to such an extreme measure.

[WeirsBeachBoater]

How does my question differ from

Your question differs for one simple reason. You are trying (desperately) I might add to make this incident fit the mold you need. That way you can beat your drum about speed limits and GFBL's... Obviously you are so obsessed that you monitor other boating community websites to see what you can use against them and strike fear into the non boating public. You see, that is the goal of the pro speed limit crowd, prey on the fact that non boaters can't see that there is no speeding issue, you are holding on to the hope that you can make perception, a reality. I think that is starting to backfire, A boy can only cry wolf so many times!

IMHO, based on one Winnipesaukee-kayak-cut-in-half account at an Internet speedboat site yesterday, we are still vacuuming around "the elephant in the living room".

This proves my point, there is much more to life APS, get out and enjoy it, don't spend so much time trying to catch the evil powerboats!!! LOL

[jceria]

Being out on the lake at night in a tiny craft without lights in simply dumb!

On the other hand, the captain has to watch ALL the time. I've done a lot of boating at night on the lake. It's easy to assume you the only one out there when you don't see any lights for some ways, but ultimately you are responsible.

I just had to put a motor in my truck due to catastophic oil pump failure. I had an oil pressure gauge. I've had my truck for 8 years. It ran great! Do I watch the oil pressure gauge? Not all the time, I got complacent enough to cost me.
It wasn't my fault that the enging blew, but I could have prevented it! Does everyone watch thier gauges on a regular basis? I mean every few minutes ALL the time? I didn't think so!

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by jceria

I just had to put a motor in my truck due to catastophic oil pump failure.

Dodge 5.2 or 5.9, by chance?

[Irrigation Guy]

Originally Posted by michael clayton

Yes , when it comes to responsibilities "the buck stops here " on the captain . But your answer is akin to blaming the man in charge of operating a locomotive with 10 or 100 cars behind him for running over an idiot asleep on the railroad tracks. The kayakers had no right being there,were breaking many of our boating laws and only by the Grace of God are they alive .
the captain of this boat deserves a "round of applause" and not a negative word otherwise . To to do anything else or to suggest that he /she is partly at fault is simply inappropriate and insulting to the captain and simple human logic....But then, there is an entire group out there in our society that thinks that there is always someone else to blame . "hey , I have lung cancer because i smoked butts for 25 years ...i think I'll file a suit against the tobacco companies " while they have been telling everyone who will listen that smoking causes cancer..... The fault must fall on the person who acted
irresponsibly....that would be,by 99 % of the American public,the kayakers
I am very happy that no one suffered serious injury.There was injury caused that night: to the people operating and riding in the boat...they will never forget that night and I am sorry for that . they don't deserve that.....

I couldn't agree more!!

I've also done a fair amount of nighttime boating. IMHO as far as moonlight goes, it depends on if it is in front of you or behind you. If the moon is in front of you, it illuminates the water quite nicely and things are pretty easy to see , mostly as silhouettes. On the other hand, if the moon is behind you, most everything in front of you seems very dark and it tends to be quite difficult to see whats out there. This person should have had some form of light for there own safety. We all have to be responsible for are own actions, and look out for our own well being!! Geeesh.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Whether the kayakers had the best in required lights, no lights, or dead batteries, the kayakers had the benefit of a full moon to assure visibility among boaters sharing the lake. We've seen where the absence of a full moon was used to dismiss responsibility for a previous infamous Winnipesaukee collision.

A sensible limit like 25-MPH could forestall an even more extreme measure like Indiana's. In that state, when you put on your navigation lights, you must proceed at 10-MPH—even on the Great Lakes in that state's jurisdiction!

What responsibility was dismissed??? We all know what you are talking about and a certain someone is in jail because of the incident. Although it may have been tried in litigation, it certainly dismissed nothing. Since you brought it up, other than the direct parties involved knowing the truth, there is still no outside proof that the boat that was hit had their lights on! Other posters recently have made comments of witnessing boats without their lights on at night. It unfortunately happens frequently.

I think that the overwhelming percentage of boaters have no problem with a 25mph night time speed limit. Its the day time limit that is not necessary.

[Weirs guy]

So let me get this straight, based on some of the posts I've seen here responsibility for ones actions is directly tied to what type of boat they drive? I.E. a slow kayaker is not responsible for following the law, but the GFBL boater is responsible for not following an non-existent law?

Why couldn't I have had parents that think like that?

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Whether the kayakers had the best in required lights, no lights, or dead batteries, the kayakers had the benefit of a full moon to assure visibility among boaters sharing the lake. We've seen where the absence of a full moon was used to dismiss responsibility for a previous infamous Winnipesaukee collision.

This is the most outrageous statement I have seen yet. The poor kayaker who was in clear violation of the law by not having the required light is not at fault, but the boat driver is? Give me a break.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee

I haven't read past post 6 or so, but I'll say one thing: I smell alcohol.

You should probably read past post 6.