E15 Ethanol Warning!!

[Just Sold]

Boaters warned on use of 15% ethanol fuel

Wednesday, August 1, 2012


To avoid serious damage to their boats, boat owners in New Hampshire and beyond should take caution not to fuel up their tanks with E15 -- a gasoline blend that contains 15 percent ethanol that the Environmental Protection Agency has approved for sale for newer cars and trucks -- once it becomes available at local gas pumps.
That's the message that the National Marine Manufacturers Association, which represents more than 80 percent of the boat manufacturers in the U.S. and Canada, is trying hard to get out to boat owners and makers.
The association is taking steps to stop boaters from accidentally filling up their tanks with the gasoline blend known as E15.
The EPA has granted two partial waivers approving the commercial sale of E15 for cars and light trucks manufactured since model year 2001, but does not approve it for use in off-road vehicles, such as boats or snowmobiles, or home and garden equipment.
Locally, no pumps offer E15 yet; in fact, the nation's first E15 fuel pump opened only just recently in Kansas.
But the availability of E15 is destined to become more widespread, as the Obama administration has set a goal of helping fueling station owners install 10,000 blender pumps across the country over the next five years. (Blender pumps are fuel pumps that let consumers choose between various ethanol blends.)
To try to prevent consumers from misfueling, the EPA requires E15 fuel pumps to carry labels warning consumers about the types of vehicles that should not use the fuel.
But even with the labels, the marine association expressed concern that boaters could accidentally fill up their engines with the blend -- and seriously damage their boats in the process.
To stop boaters from using the higher-ethanol blend, the association said it would distribute 100,000 labels to its members to place on boats, warning boaters about the potential dangers of using E15.
Among the problems that can occur with using gasoline containing more than 10 percent ethanol are issues like stalling, corrosion that can lead to oil and fuel leaks, and damaged valves, fuel lines and gaskets, the association said.
When E10, a gasoline blend that contains 10 percent ethanol, first entered the New Hampshire market several years ago, it offered its share of problems for marine engines, said Christopher Sandell, owner of Nashua Marine in Nashua.
He got phone calls from owners of all kinds of boats with engine issues due to ethanol, including clogged fuel filters and rusting and breaking down of parts.
"It was crazy. It didn't matter if it was a two-stroke engine, four-stroke engine, outboard engine, inboard engine -- it affected everybody," he said. "Every phone call I got was the same: 'My engine just bogs.' We still get that today, (but) it's not as bad."
Ethanol grabs onto and softens the sludge in the bottom of the tank, which can clog fuel filters.
Most of the E10 issues have been "somewhat resolved" now, said Sandell, but E15 could be even worse for the boats.
"It's just an unknown -- it could burn up these engines," he said. "A lot of these engines weren't made for ethanol consumption. They weren't designed around that technology." - KATHLEEN CALLAHAN/NEW HAMPSHIRE BUSINESS REVIEW

[RailroadJoe]

E15? What is this stuff good for, lawn mowers. How do we get good gas now?

[tis]

I heard that on the way to work this morning. So as Railroad said, what are we supposed to do? If it is as hard to find plain old gas as it is now, it won't be easy.

On the program I was listening to they said for every 10 rows of corn 4 are for ethanol so 40%. It won't be long before we have a food shortage. As discussed on another thread, we need to get rid of this stuff!!!!!!!!

[Jonas Pilot]

... for the few that profit from it. What about the rest of us?

[Winnisquamguy]

Originally Posted by tis

On the program I was listening to they said for every 10 rows of corn 4 are for ethanol so 40%. It won't be long before we have a food shortage.

With the drought in most of the country the corn crop is gone, I was reading a few weeks ago that the season is lost and most were looking for insurance to help them out. There will be no food shortage but you can bet the prices will be at record highs.

[SAB1]

Pure politics. That whole ethanol thing is a scam. You get worse gas mileage with ethanol in the gas and the emissions are worse than regular gas. Total crock tied to nothing but farm subsidies.

[LIforrelaxin]

The problem is that the only people making there voices heard, and paying for lobiests are the tree hugging liberal enviormentalists, whom of course support Ethanol blended fuels.... Until someone starts a group of conservative non-tree hugging realists and it gets big enough to higher lobiests will we see a change.....

I think we will find that E15 much like E85 will be a rare thing... There aren't enough vehicles that will truely be able to handle it, to warrent the cost to the gas stations to provide it.....

[HomeWood]

Hooray for progress!

[cillovely]

Originally Posted by RailroadJoe

E15? What is this stuff good for, lawn mowers. How do we get good gas now?

It's good for nothing, not even lawn mowers I'm sure. The E10 does a job on motorcycles that don't get ridden every day. Hubby and I have to have our carburators cleaned and re-built every year becuase this stuff gunks up and makes them run awful.

Thanks for this, I will make sure when this junk comes around we don't put it in our boat.

[SAB1]

Originally Posted by cillovely

It's good for nothing, not even lawn mowers I'm sure. The E10 does a job on motorcycles that don't get ridden every day. Hubby and I have to have our carburators cleaned and re-built every year becuase this stuff gunks up and makes them run awful.

Thanks for this, I will make sure when this junk comes around we don't put it in our boat.

If I recall correctly something I read mentioned that small equipment such as lawnmowers, chainsaws, leaf blowers etc will basically be destroyed by E-15 as they were designed to run on it. It will ruin them much like the older cars.

[KeepItSimple]

for ruining our fun toys. agree with SAB1, its all about the money. Real environmentalists know better. its despicable that the current administration continues this scam. This is from 2007:

"The United States automaker chief executives met with and further pushed President George Bush to back incentives bringing e85 ethanol and biodiesel to more gas stations across the country. The automotive companies examined their output of the newest flex-fuel vehicles.

In five years, half the cars made by General Motors, Chrysler and Ford Motor company, would be capable to run on biodiesel or E85, the automotive executives explained.

The meeting with President Bush in Washington DC was for the second time in about 16 weeks that Rick Wagoner of GM, Alan R. Mulally of Ford and Thomas W. LaSorda of Chrysler urged President Bush to expand access to more and more biofuels. The automaker executives wanted that over the proposed stricter fuel economy as a way to cut America's oil use....America's ethanol producers, made mainly from corn, receive a tax credits of 51 cents per gallon. They also receive a 54 cent tariff on every gallon of ethanol that is imported. Flex-fuel vehicle automakers get a credit that lets them increase their automobile's fuel economy."

http://www.e85safety.com/

[SIKSUKR]

I will say that the intention is good.Reality is another thing.

[RailroadJoe]

Ruin cars faster. Buy new ones quicker. More money
for Detroit. Its called planned obsolescence. Books written years ago about it.

[BroadHopper]

When the gasoline runs dry, I predict gasoline engines will be converted to run natural gas. We have a 90 year supply under our feet. Google and you will see many natural gas projects working today.

We don't need no stinking ethanol!

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

When the gasoline runs dry, I predict gasoline engines will be converted to run natural gas. We have a 90 year supply under our feet. Google and you will see many natural gas projects working today.

We don't need no stinking ethanol!

Ninety years isn't no stinking long time either.
then what?

[Scott's Yott]

Any gas station that sells e15 should be boycotted.........There is nothing good about it and only BRAND NEW cars or equiptment can even use it

[jrc]

Originally Posted by Belmont Resident

Ninety years isn't no stinking long time either.
then what?

Atomic power or something we haven't invented yet.

We really have no need to use our prime food growing real estate to grow fuel. In 90 years there will be a bunch more mouths to feed as well.

I wish the politicians would stop with the ethanol experiment, but they get huge support from the farmers.

[tis]

Originally Posted by Scott's Yott

Any gas station that sells e15 should be boycotted.........There is nothing good about it and only BRAND NEW cars or equiptment can even use it

That is probably the only thing that will work. If everyone in the country refused to buy it, they would have to drop it. But it will probably mean we won't be going anywhere because who doesn't sell it?

[NoBozo]

I just bought a new "Honda 2000i Companion Generator". The owners manual says I should NOT use any fuel with more Ethonal than E10.

The person at the dealer who finalized my contract...reminded me: IF you don't take care of your generator..as with respect to ETHONAL...ie..your "carburater gets clogged". Your warranty does not cover this. NB

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

I just bought a new "Honda 2000i Companion Generator". The owners manual says I should NOT use any fuel with more Ethonal than E10.

The person at the dealer who finalized my contract...reminded me: IF you don't take care of your generator..as with respect to ETHONAL...ie..your "carburater gets clogged". Your warranty does not cover this. NB

I find the best way to prevent problems with things like that is to drain the gas and run it dry after use.
To the best of my knowledge you can not clog the carburetor if it has no fuel in it.

[Jonas Pilot]

And why should we have to do that?

[NoBozo]

YUP: The generator has a drain tube to conveniently drain the gas TANK. ALSO: Run the carb dry. Honda thinks of everything. NB

[dippasan]

I posted this in reply in a thread in the "General Discussion" category. It is my endorsement of a gasoline additive to help with E-10 problems. Not sure if it will be as effective on E-15 but I guess time will tell.

As a former mechanic I can tell you that E-10 has been creating havoc with all kinds of internal combustion engines.
To eliminate any future problems with "occasional use" motorized things, use the Startron Enzyme fuel treatment.
It comes in a light blue bottle and the concentrated 16 oz bottle will treat up to 256 gallons of gas. It can be bought almost anywhere i.e. Walmart and auto parts stores.
I have several snowmobiles and motorcycles not to mention a generator, lawn tractor, chain saw etc etc. Stuff that potentially sits for quite some time. Since using the Enzyme treatment I never have a problem. I took out one of my motorcycles last week and it hadn't been driven since March. It fired right up and ran perfect. I have cleaned more carburetors for family members and friends in the last couple of years then I care to remember. Use it in anything gas powered. 2 stroke, 4 stroke...doesn't matter.

Good luck!
__________________

[SAB1]

Seafoam is also another great product to help with problems created by ethanol.

[songkrai]

Another story.
Not sure if true.

But I do recall folks in the olden days of claiming to go to Laconia Airport and purchasing "aviation" fuel. That this aviation fuel had a higher ocatane rating.

Is aviation fuel leaded or unleaded today?

I don't have a clue what is in aviation fuel today. Maybe some pilots can chime in.

[songkrai]

On another note.

I just had the carburetor replaced on my weedwhaker. This ethanol is clogging up all small engines.

[tis]

If someone was smart enough maybe they could start a campaign on Facebook to get rid of ethanol altogether.

[holeinthewall]

This is all very interesting.
If you think about it, corn is really not good for anything.

Corn is a grain that is not easy for us to digest. Yes, I enjoy a nice ear of corn in the summer, but you really aren't digesting what you consume.

It is not a good animal feed. It is just cheap feed. The meat and milk that cows produce is inferior to what is produced by grass fed cows.

It is a terrible source of ethanol. It is expensive to produce, and ruins the fuel it is combined with.

It may be good for making whiskey, not sure about that.

The only positive thing you can say about it is that it makes a good crop to grow in the midwest that makes Archer Daniels Midland and Monsanto a pile of money.

Congress needs to stop the corn subsidies.

[BroadHopper]

Is the money that winds up in the pockets of the Corn Belt legislatures.

Ain't politics grand!?!?!?!?!

[RailroadJoe]

Politics aren't bad. It's the politicians we have to worry about.

[John A. Birdsall]

l think that running the unit dry would cause the seals and gaskets to run dry. I think instead increase the stablizer for winterizing the tanks and motors. My mechanic has recommended an ounce per six gallons of gas all the time to be run. Coarse I have one of the engines that require oil mix.

[BroadHopper]

Among some of the crazy things attached to the Fiscal Cliff bill is a tax credit to gas stations to install E15 pumps and tanks to accelerate the use of E15 ethanol. Here is a link to a warning from AAA to motorists who did not purchase the flexfuel autos.

http://autos.aol.com/article/fiscal-...6pLid%3D256091

What is bad is that the govt. only test how E15 effect the evironment, not the caustic effect on autos.

My daughter's father-in-law bought one of the first flexfuel Chevy pickup. After using E85 the check engine light came on and for years never went off. Only the dealer will inspect it. (Mass.) he just recently move to NH and couldn't find someone to inspect it. Not even the NH Chevy dealers will touch it. Since it won't pass inspection, he cannot trade it in. He was told to trade in Florida where there are no inspection.

[tis]

THat is just awful. THe government strikes again. I hope they wake up and decided we don't need E15. Think if autos can't handle it, what it will do to our boats this summer!

[ApS]

Originally Posted by SAB1

If I recall correctly something I read mentioned that small equipment such as lawnmowers, chainsaws, leaf blowers etc will basically be destroyed by E-15 as they were designed to run on it. It will ruin them much like the older cars.

I bought a lawnmower at Home Depot, and loaded it up for a six-hour trip.

Upon arrival, I opened the box, and directly inside was a small note from the manufacturer saying that the mower had not been approved for E15. ...and that was two years ago.

Having a foreboding sense of the future, I returned it—unused—and bought an electric lawnmower. (Which should outlast the introduction of E20 )

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by tis

THat is just awful. THe government strikes again. I hope they wake up and decided we don't need E15. Think if autos can't handle it, what it will do to our boats this summer!

If you want to use E-15 in your boat this up coming summer then you will have to travel to Kansas, Iowa, or Nebraska. They are the only states with E-15 pumps. Have a nice trip.

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by Rusty

If you want to use E-15 in your boat this up coming summer then you will have to travel to Kansas, Iowa, or Nebraska. They are the only states with E-15 pumps. Have a nice trip.

Rusty there are some subjects that just are not laughing matters.
You really should determine that before you post.
We are all going to be effected by this especially anyone with a 2 stroke engine weather it be chain saw, leaf blower, snowmobile. The older the product the more likely it is to fail from breakdown to ethanol. Seals, oring's and bushings were not made to withstand this fuel and they are the first things to degrade.
This is not even remotely funny.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

Among some of the crazy things attached to the Fiscal Cliff bill is a tax credit to gas stations to install E15 pumps and tanks to accelerate the use of E15 ethanol. Here is a link to a warning from AAA to motorists who did not purchase the flexfuel autos.

http://autos.aol.com/article/fiscal-...6pLid%3D256091

What is bad is that the govt. only test how E15 effect the evironment, not the caustic effect on autos.

My daughter's father-in-law bought one of the first flexfuel Chevy pickup. After using E85 the check engine light came on and for years never went off. Only the dealer will inspect it. (Mass.) he just recently move to NH and couldn't find someone to inspect it. Not even the NH Chevy dealers will touch it. Since it won't pass inspection, he cannot trade it in. He was told to trade in Florida where there are no inspection.

It was a tax credit "extension" to gas stations to install E15 pumps. They were already getting the tax credit. Not too many gas stations think it's financially feasible to put the pumps in.

[Winnisquamguy]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Having a foreboding sense of the future, I returned it—unused—and bought an electric lawnmower. (Which should outlast the introduction of E20 )

I wonder how many electrical cords you will go through during that period?

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by Winnisquamguy

I wonder how many electrical cords you will go through during that period?

And can he really mow the lawn at "Acres per Second" with an electric.

FYI, APS, 4 stroke engines are not as prone to problems as the 2 stoke, and mowers and things like that do not have as many components to be concerned over as car's, trucks, boats and all 2 stroke engines. Just a basic engine and carb which you can drain at the end of the season.
Good luck with your electric mower

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Winnisquamguy

I wonder how many electrical cords you will go through during that period?

Go ahead and laugh.

It's not how many cords that I "go through", but how many cords I gain!



How many cords 'you got?

I got 62!

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Go ahead and laugh. It's not how many cords that I "go through", but how many cords I gain!



How many cords 'you got?

I got 62!

And once again, just what does this have to do with the lake?

[AB_Monterey]

Looks like Florida has the right idea:

http://www.semasan.com/page.asp?cont...13FL2&g=SEMAGA

[Diver Vince]

Please consider contacting Gov Maggie Hassan regarding appeal of the ethanol requirement which is being proposed int he state of Florida.. Her e address as follows:
http://governor.nh.gov/contact/

The more e mail she gets, the better our chances of getting this idiotic mandate repealed in the state of NH.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by Diver Vince

Please consider contacting Gov Maggie Hassan regarding appeal of the ethanol requirement which is being proposed int he state of Florida.. Her e address as follows:
http://governor.nh.gov/contact/

The more e mail she gets, the better our chances of getting this idiotic mandate repealed in the state of NH.

It was tried in NH in 2011 and didn't get out of the Senate. INEXPEDIENT TO LEGISLATE

HB374
Bill Title: banning corn-based ethanol as an additive to gasoline sold in New Hampshire.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/bill...llnumber=HB374

.
.
.

[Billy Bob]

Guess I'm a day or so late to write in . Today my 2011 Volvo is in the shop for some nasty problems all caused by e 10 gas . it's not just boats, old cars and small engines that are being damaged !
And last spring when we put the boat in on Winni from storeage I had a couple hundred in damage to a 2 year old 75 hp e tech . this gas is junk and needs to be retired .

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by Billy Bob

Guess I'm a day or so late to write in . Today my 2011 Volvo is in the shop for some nasty problems all caused by e 10 gas . it's not just boats, old cars and small engines that are being damaged !
And last spring when we put the boat in on Winni from storeage I had a couple hundred in damage to a 2 year old 75 hp e tech . this gas is junk and needs to be retired .

Did you stabile it with the required amount for long storage? Or even better run it dry or at least leave as little gas in the tank as possible.
I've been storing my sleds for a lot longer then boats are stored for and have not had an issue since doing what I mentioned above. We get as much fuel out the year before then fill the tank up with fresh gas when we take them out of storage.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by Billy Bob

Today my 2011 Volvo is in the shop for some nasty problems all caused by e 10 gas .

Like what? E10 should run fine in your Volvo.

When you get a run down of what E10 did to your engine, please let us know.

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by Rusty

Like what? E10 should run fine in your Volvo.

When you get a run down of what E10 did to your engine, please let us know.

Unless it sat for a long period then I also have heard little about E-10 problems on auto's, especially new ones.
I did however have a really bad running Xterra that I used little so it had gas that was over 30 days old in it. I topped it off with fresh gas and it ran fine after that.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by Billy Bob

Today my 2011 Volvo is in the shop for some nasty problems all caused by e 10 gas .

What were the results with the "nasty problem"?

[robmac]

Ethanol was put in for one reson and one reson only to help the auto manufacturers meet current and upcoming emission standards with winimal further investment on their part. You add a natural hydrocarbon to an un natural hydrocarbon and miricle emission issue solved. Tech have been doing it since the first sniffer went in a tailpipe in CA. Just my 2 pennies

[Billy Bob]

First , on the toys in New Hampshire , last year I did NOT use the stableizer but this year I did so I hope I have a better result if spring comes to New Hamp.

On the 2011 Volvo here , They suggusted a tank of Hi test which did nothing . On Monday they did a software update to some engine computer that aparently retards the engine so it wont knock . ( all covered in the warentee ) seems the previous software also had some issue that was also causing the thing to attempt to start from second gear not first , that will slow you down , all related to the attempt to use this junk gas and make the car preform well and quietly. The software change worked great and its like new again. Seems you need a lot more "stuff " under the hood to keep a semi high preformance engine running on this crap . Have to wonder what will happen when these cars are out of warentee and I have to pick up the tab for all the computer issues .

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by Billy Bob

First , on the toys in New Hampshire , last year I did NOT use the stableizer but this year I did so I hope I have a better result if spring comes to New Hamp.

On the 2011 Volvo here , They suggusted a tank of Hi test which did nothing . On Monday they did a software update to some engine computer that aparently retards the engine so it wont knock . ( all covered in the warentee ) seems the previous software also had some issue that was also causing the thing to attempt to start from second gear not first , that will slow you down , all related to the attempt to use this junk gas and make the car preform well and quietly. The software change worked great and its like new again. Seems you need a lot more "stuff " under the hood to keep a semi high preformance engine running on this crap . Have to wonder what will happen when these cars are out of warentee and I have to pick up the tab for all the computer issues .

Or worse if they do decide to go to E-15.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by Billy Bob

First , on the toys in New Hampshire , last year I did NOT use the stableizer but this year I did so I hope I have a better result if spring comes to New Hamp.

On the 2011 Volvo here , They suggusted a tank of Hi test which did nothing . On Monday they did a software update to some engine computer that aparently retards the engine so it wont knock . ( all covered in the warentee ) seems the previous software also had some issue that was also causing the thing to attempt to start from second gear not first , that will slow you down , all related to the attempt to use this junk gas and make the car preform well and quietly. The software change worked great and its like new again. Seems you need a lot more "stuff " under the hood to keep a semi high preformance engine running on this crap . Have to wonder what will happen when these cars are out of warentee and I have to pick up the tab for all the computer issues .

Thanks for the response and I'm glad you got it fixed...for the time being anyway.
I never had any luck with Volvo's or Saab's. They were too expensive to fix and not all mechanics liked working on them.

[NoBozo]

You people are forgetting THE Problem. It's NOT some software in some particular car brand. It's that Ethanol in the gas you buy turns to GOO in something like 30-60 days in your gas tank IF you don't use it. Once the GOO gets in your system you have problems. NB

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

You people are forgetting THE Problem. It's NOT some software in some particular car brand. It's that Ethanol in the gas you buy turns to GOO in something like 30-60 days in your gas tank IF you don't use it. Once the GOO gets in your system you have problems. NB

The statement that needs to follow here is that you should put stabilizer in anything that you don't regularly use.

Cars that are driven every day don't have issue, because you cycle through the gas quickly.

Boats, lawn mowers, chain saw, snowmobiles etc. that have extensive down time, will run into issue.

I personally run stabilizer in all my toys all the time, and then I never have to worry.

[SAB1]

Originally Posted by robmac

Ethanol was put in for one reson and one reson only to help the auto manufacturers meet current and upcoming emission standards with winimal further investment on their part. You add a natural hydrocarbon to an un natural hydrocarbon and miricle emission issue solved. Tech have been doing it since the first sniffer went in a tailpipe in CA. Just my 2 pennies

Not sure this is a correct theory. I have seen many articles that emissions coming from the E-10 are worse than the old gas. MPG dimishes with ethanol. Ethanol was put in and stays in because it all tied to farm sudsbidies the Government doles out.

[SAB1]

Oh forgot to mention and I know it is hard to change peoples opinions and dont intend to but I do now store all my takes full in offseason. No poke at you intended Belmont. All the boat/car/motorcyle/snowmobile mechanics I use now say to store full as do the charter fisherman out at Lake O. The initial year ethanol came out they (mechanics)were against this due to possible phase separation but now they all tell me to store full especially if you have a metal tank and load them up with Stabil (always did anyway). To much condensation can form on the empty sides of the tanks. Plastic tanks less of an issue. I also run Star tron in everything now. Stinks buying it and paying more money but I have had so many issues with small outboard carb's its worth it. Several people I know with snowmobile store their tanks full and then in spring syphon the gas out and run it through their cars.

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by SAB1

Oh forgot to mention and I know it is hard to change peoples opinions and dont intend to but I do now store all my takes full in offseason. No poke at you intended Belmont. All the boat/car/motorcyle/snowmobile mechanics I use now say to store full as do the charter fisherman out at Lake O. The initial year ethanol came out they (mechanics)were against this due to possible phase separation but now they all tell me to store full especially if you have a metal tank and load them up with Stabil (always did anyway). To much condensation can form on the empty sides of the tanks. Plastic tanks less of an issue. I also run Star tron in everything now. Stinks buying it and paying more money but I have had so many issues with small outboard carb's its worth it. Several people I know with snowmobile store their tanks full and then in spring syphon the gas out and run it through their cars.

Hey to each their own, but, personally I would rather drain or leave as little in as possible because, after 30 days even with stabile your fuel isn't the same as it was before storage. So for me I'd rather have a little not so fresh stabilized gas and top it off with as much fresh gas as possible to start off the season. Remember stabilized fuel is not near a good as none stabilized fuel. Yes it does burn but it is not as efficient and more likely to foul plugs and rob you of horsepower.
Maybe it is different for sleds but our dealer says drain as much if not all out.
I've had great luck doing it this way and I hope you have the same doing it the old way.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by SAB1

Oh forgot to mention and I know it is hard to change peoples opinions and dont intend to but I do now store all my takes full in offseason. No poke at you intended Belmont. All the boat/car/motorcyle/snowmobile mechanics I use now say to store full as do the charter fisherman out at Lake O. The initial year ethanol came out they (mechanics)were against this due to possible phase separation but now they all tell me to store full especially if you have a metal tank and load them up with Stabil (always did anyway). To much condensation can form on the empty sides of the tanks. Plastic tanks less of an issue. I also run Star tron in everything now. Stinks buying it and paying more money but I have had so many issues with small outboard carb's its worth it. Several people I know with snowmobile store their tanks full and then in spring syphon the gas out and run it through their cars.

You are absolutely correct SAB1. By emptying the tank and carburetor gaskets and seals will definitely dry up and crack a lot faster also. Best to stabilize and keep tank and carb full. Been doing it this way since the introduction of ethanol and haven't had any issues yet.

Dan

[jrc]

There is so much misinformation on ethanol that it's hard to know what is true.

On small engines, I always use stabile on the last tank, drain as much as possible and then run them dry. I never used to worry about it but since ethanol, I've had to rebuild one (out of a set of four) motorcycle carbs and a snowblower carb.

The boat has two 130 gallon steel tanks, draining is not practical and having 260 gallons of 6 month old fuel in May is not appealing. So I load up with stabile or similar during the last top off and store with somewhere under a quarter tank. My mechanic winterizes the engines and does whatever he does. Come spring it starts right up. Then I usually fill up with fresh gas.

This is season seven for this boat coming up and it has never seen non-ethanol fuel.

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

Originally Posted by jrc

There is so much misinformation on ethanol that it's hard to know what is true.

On small engines, I always use stabile on the last tank, drain as much as possible and then run them dry. I never used to worry about it but since ethanol, I've had to rebuild one (out of a set of four) motorcycle carbs and a snowblower carb.

The boat has two 130 gallon steel tanks, draining is not practical and having 260 gallons of 6 month old fuel in May is not appealing. So I load up with stabile or similar during the last top off and store with somewhere under a quarter tank. My mechanic winterizes the engines and does whatever he does. Come spring it starts right up. Then I usually fill up with fresh gas.

This is season seven for this boat coming up and it has never seen non-ethanol fuel.

WAYYYYYYY too much misinformation!! They should just get rid of ethanol so we, the middle class, can keep some of our hard-earned money. All ethanol does is put OUR money in someone else's pockets!!

I'm in a similar situation only I only have one 96 gal tank and like you said, draining it is not practical or easy. BUT, I do just the opposite of you, I fill the tank to the top and load it up with Marine Stabile in the recommended dosage for long storage. I've been through 12 seasons with this boat now doing it this way and, knock on wood, I haven't had a problem yet. One year I couldn't find Marine Stabile in any of the auto stores near me so I used Seafoam; no problems that year either.

I use Stabile (blue or red) in all my small engines (and the boat) and maybe I've just been lucky but, so far, so good!

[SAB1]

Though I don't have experience with it, charter captains at Lake O have also cautioned me about storing a partial tank. Apparently alcohol is a conductor and the old gas we had without ethanol wasn't. The alcohol can cause galvanic corrosion where it meets the air thus deteriorating a tank. No experience with it but they claim it happens. Anyway, one thing I do do no matter if its a two stroke or a 4 stroke is fog all my engines pull my plugs a blast each cylinder after fogging. I never skip that.

On an off topic, Belmont, for chain case oil in the snowmobile, do you use a gear lube? I see many guys use 75w 90 rather than what the stuff at the dealer.

[BroadHopper]

I have a 1988 I/O with an 80 gallon gas tank. The tank has neoprene liner to prevent corrosion of the aluminum. Since the boat was built before ethanol was added to the gas, the neoprene liner, the gas hoses and the carburetor gaskets have all deterorated from the ethanol. Ethanol is technically a solvent and will disolve any neoprene and rubber materials. New gaskets and liners are made of a different material and are impervious to ethanol.

The gas tank, all the gas hoses and the gaskets on the carb have all been replace costiong me $thousands. At the time the govt claims it is not cause by ethanol. Go figure.

[SAB1]

Though I don't have experience with it, charter captains at Lake O have also cautioned me about storing a partial tank. Apparently alcohol is a conductor and the old gas we had without ethanol wasn't. The alcohol can cause galvanic corrosion where it meets the air thus deteriorating a tank. No experience with it but they claim it happens. Anyway, one thing I do do no matter if its a two stroke or a 4 stroke is fog all my engines pull my plugs a blast each cylinder after fogging. I never skip that.

On an off topic, Belmont, for chain case oil in the snowmobile, do you use a gear lube? I see many guys use 75w 90 rather than what the stuff at the dealer.

[robmac]

The goo that was mentioned in a prior post is the result of phase separation,this happens when the Ethanol absorbs its maximum amount of moisture and separates from the gasoline and drops to the bottom of you gas tank because it is heavier.This Goo(which looks grey and consistency of like karo syrup) is picked up and the destruction begins. As stated most cars and trucks turn the fuel over quick enough the it doesn't affect them as badly.E15 will affect cars and trucks due to the ECM programing which will allow them to run on 10% ethanol by volume unless you own a vehicle designed for E85.When on winter blend gas you can test it as I am forced to do because of my occupation I have found this year winter blend containing up to 16% by volume.Hence poor performance,poor fuel economy and other driveability issues.Small engines or vehicle that sit for periods of time where the gas isn't going to be cycled through within 60 days you should be adding a product that prevent phase separation. My brand of choice is Startron,I have used it since 2004 and have never had an issue relating to fuel. On the water some marinas treat the fuel in their tanks so the work is done for you Like Channel/valvtech-Shep Browns/Startron etc. which ever you choose make absolutly it is designed and they stand behind it if it doent work.I cant stand watching parts people still selling red Stabil it is useless when you have E10 fuel. Just my 2 cents

[Ride & Dive]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

You are absolutely correct SAB1. By emptying the tank and carburetor gaskets and seals will definitely dry up and crack a lot faster also. Best to stabilize and keep tank and carb full. Been doing it this way since the introduction of ethanol and haven't had any issues yet.

Dan

My understanding as well. An empty tank will allow for more evaporation and subsequent condensation in the tank due to the air gap between the fuel and the top of the tank. The fuller the tank, the smaller the gap and thereby the less room for the science of The Water Cycle to do its voodoo.

[Happy Gourmand]

Originally Posted by robmac

The goo that was mentioned in a prior post is the result of phase separation,this happens when the Ethanol absorbs its maximum amount of moisture and separates from the gasoline and drops to the bottom of you gas tank because it is heavier.This Goo(which looks grey and consistency of like karo syrup) is picked up and the destruction begins. As stated most cars and trucks turn the fuel over quick enough the it doesn't affect them as badly.E15 will affect cars and trucks due to the ECM programing which will allow them to run on 10% ethanol by volume unless you own a vehicle designed for E85.When on winter blend gas you can test it as I am forced to do because of my occupation I have found this year winter blend containing up to 16% by volume.Hence poor performance,poor fuel economy and other driveability issues.Small engines or vehicle that sit for periods of time where the gas isn't going to be cycled through within 60 days you should be adding a product that prevent phase separation. My brand of choice is Startron,I have used it since 2004 and have never had an issue relating to fuel. On the water some marinas treat the fuel in their tanks so the work is done for you Like Channel/valvtech-Shep Browns/Startron etc. which ever you choose make absolutly it is designed and they stand behind it if it doent work.I cant stand watching parts people still selling red Stabil it is useless when you have E10 fuel. Just my 2 cents

I have been using the RED STABIL for years without any problems. Do you have any white papers or facts to back up your claim that it is useless?

[BroadHopper]

I have seen two sides to that story in the boat magazines. The latest story in Boat US is that ethanol stabilzers work for 18 months. If you your going to empty the tank within 18 months than leave the tank full. If you are going to store the gas longer then empty the tank.

My mechanic says it doesn't matter how much is in the tank. You are storing the boat for a few months with stabilizer, today's water filter can compensate for any water and bad ethanol.

I talk to another reliable mechanic and he confirmed this finding.

[robmac]

if the red stabil was effective they wouldn't have invested all the money to come up with the new stabil for ethanol. Simple business 101 why make new if old works fine. Check with small engine repair shops RV repair centers they love it. Never had a problem using Startron since E10 was thrust upon us nor have I seen any issues when using it(I am in the repair industry)

[Rich]

Did you know they have an 'app' for that!

That's right, an app to help you find non E-10 (or E-15) gas.

Please note that I just found this the other day and haven't used it yet, other than to check to see what it shows in our area.

The app is called "Pure Gas" and I have it on my Android, I understand there may be an Apple version too. It's supposed to be driven by the pure-gas.org website.

Note that the app lists Channel Marine as having 'Ethanol-free VALVTECT 89 and 91 Octane'. I have not tried to verify this information. The info may be entered by end users, so I suppose that it could be incorrect, but I hear everything on the Internet is true. How do I know? They said so on the Internet!

[BroadHopper]

is a additive like Startron or Stabil.
Not sure why Channel Marine would add this to ethanol free gas.

http://www.valvtect.com/

Last summer their pumps had the contains 10% ethanol sticker. This will be a welcome addition to the lake this summer.

I don't expect the price to be cheaper as ethanol is subsidized by the govt. and currently almost $1 a gallon cheaper than gas. Ethanol is the most inefficient fuel to burn as it cost more to produce ethanol than gas. Most of our ethanol comes from Brazil. I thought the whole idea of ethanol was to be independent of fuel from foreign countries? Ecologically ethanol is a disaster as Brazil is clear cutting the rain forest for ethanol production.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

is a additive like Startron or Stabil.
Not sure why Channel Marine would add this to ethanol free gas.

http://www.valvtect.com/

Last summer their pumps had the contains 10% ethanol sticker. This will be a welcome addition to the lake this summer.

I don't expect the price to be cheaper as ethanol is subsidized by the govt. and currently almost $1 a gallon cheaper than gas. Ethanol is the most inefficient fuel to burn as it cost more to produce ethanol than gas. Most of our ethanol comes from Brazil. I thought the whole idea of ethanol was to be independent of fuel from foreign countries? Ecologically ethanol is a disaster as Brazil is clear cutting the rain forest for ethanol production.

Pretty soon when we go to the pump we might be saying: "Fill it up with rain forest please".

Brazil produces surgar cane ethanol, and the US produces corn ethanol. The US is the number one producer of ethanol and Brazil is second.

As far as how much each country imports and exports is something that I don't think you will find an answer to right now, I couldn't anyway.