Registration Increase?? What the He double hockey sticks!

[AC2717]

Just received my boat registration, 1988 23footer bowrider with a 260 horse $86?
Then on Saturday received my jetski registration and it is $48 for a 640cc 1998 tigershark

What in all human are they thinking, this is an outragous increase in registration fees, when did this go through? Let me guess is this because I am out of state and the wonderful democrats in Concord found yet another way to screw out of state'rs to pay for ridiculous. Not only are they killing me on the property tax with no benefits, now I am getting hosed on these. I have half a mind to register these in MA

[PC31]

If you register in Mass you will have to pay sales tax (based on price of boat when purchased) on both boats.
Good luck with that!
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[townsde]

When I purchased my boat last June and registereed it, I was told that all boat and car registrations would increase effective July 1. This was implemented because the state revenues were down and the state was looking for ways to INCREASE INCOME. Now this makes a lot of sense to some people but not to me. They raised fees that I pay but of course many of us were going through the same thing the state was since our incomes were also down. You can rest assured that when the state budget is balanced and the economy rebounds, these fees will not be lowered again EVER.

[wifi]

Originally Posted by townsde

... You can rest assured that when the state budget is balanced and the economy rebounds, these fees will not be lowered again EVER.

The exact reason no one in their right mind wants a sales or income tax in NH. Just control spending instead.

[gf2020]

Here in MA, they just raised the trailer registration fees by an outrageous amount.

Previously, I paid $20 per year to register my trailer, now they charge $20 per 1000 pounds of gross capacity so my trailer which weighs 1000 pounds and can carry 5000 pounds now costs $120 per year.

In the grand scheme of things, I can afford the additional $100 per year, but there is no justification for this kind of increase.

[fatlazyless]

Last winter, in approximately Febuary 2009, the Marine Patrol Director initiated a boat registration fee increase by asking a state rep to sponsor his suggestions. The Director supposedly said that the registration fees had remained the same since 1989, and the Marine Patrol could definately use more money to spend on operations especially with the new speed law enforcement plus every
thing else.

As I read in the newspaper, the hoped for increases were not approved by the legisature which surprised me. It could be that an increase was quietly made part of some other bill which did pass? In the NH legislature, there's always another way to skin a cat. What we need is more information. Maybe the Union Leader will put one of their ace investigative reporters on this case?

What happened? How many radar guns and certified training-to-operate officers do they need? Is there any truth to the rumor that the Marine Patrol flagship vessel, a 42' former Coast Guard launch, just recently received a six-person size luxury hot-tub installed onto the fantail of the boat. People who know, say the boat has already been renamed the "Hubba-Hubba"!

So's, at least your registration money goes to a good cause.......hubba that....10-4......code 3......over!

[AC2717]

I knew I read somewhere that the direct bill was defeated last year, does anyone know how exactly the increase happened, can anyone dig and expose this?

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

Here's the link to the previous thread on this subject; http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ead.php?t=7978

According to an article in the Citizen back in January 2009, http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...-1/CITNEWS0103, state rep Richard Drisko (R-Hollis) sponsored a bill to increase boat registration fees. The state's website won't let me view the bill so I can't see what became of it but I know it failed. Eventually, increased boat registration fees were added to HB2 (the state budget bill), http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legi...09/HB0002.html.

Here's the pertinent section:

144:144 Registration Fees. Amend RSA 270-E:5, I to read as follows:

I. The registration fees for commercial, private, and pleasure vessels, including rentals and airboats shall be as follows:

(a) Up to and including 16 feet [$12] $24

(b) 16.1 feet to 21 feet [$17] $34

(c) 21.1 feet to 30 feet [$26] $52

(d) 30.1 feet to 45 feet [$36] $72

(e) 45.1 feet and over [$46] $92

Don't forget there are additional fees (lake restoration and preservation fee, agent fee, etc.) that make up the total you pay to register. I can't keep track of all of them so you're on your own to figure those out.

Lastly, if you read the Citizen article linked above, you'll see they state the boat registration fees haven't increased since 1979, so 30 yrs since this fee has seen an increase. Does the timing suck? Yes. Do I enjoy paying a higher registration fee? No. Does Marine Patrol need it? Yes. Is an increase long overdue? Probably. So do what I do, suck it up.

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

Originally Posted by wifi

The exact reason no one in their right mind wants a sales or income tax in NH. Just control spending instead.

I'm curious, if no one wants a sales tax or income tax because they are broad-based taxes, what exactly is a property tax? Because it doesn't get any broader than a property tax!! We all live somewhere and we either pay it directly (as a landowner) or indirectly (as a tenant renting from a landowner).

I would rather pay a tax that's based on my ability to pay (sales or income) than on somebody else's guess at what my property is worth!! And yes, spending does need to be controlled better (unfortunately, that's easier said than done).

[tis]

If they got a sales or income tax, they would just spend more. And even if they SAID one of these other taxes would replace property taxes, they could always reinstate them later. And I firmly believe they would. I have never, ever seen a government that has enough money.

[wifi]

Originally Posted by Wolfeboro_Baja

I would rather pay a tax that's based on my ability to pay (sales or income) than on somebody else's guess at what my property is worth!!......

Lets take a hypothetical example: Suppose you spent most of your money buying a waterfront home on Meredith Neck, and the rest of your money buying a condo in Waterville Valley. Now you have no money left and hence no 'ability to pay' (where have I heard this before?) taxes. Should it be my responsibility to carry the freight on the value of property you now own?

YES, I agree assessments ummm.. lets say have a long way go to before being 'fair'.

[Pineedles]

Originally Posted by tis

If they got a sales or income tax, they would just spend more. And even if they SAID one of these other taxes would replace property taxes, they could always reinstate them later. And I firmly believe they would. I have never, ever seen a government that has enough money.

You said it! We still have an income tax here in CT after it was adopted nearly 20 years ago as a temporary adjustment to a rough year. BS! Despite adding Slot-machine revenue we're still being taxed higher and higher and neaded for a billion dollar shortfall. If they institute an income tax in NH, it's still not going to satisfy them. They'll always want more.

[Airwaves]

Without opening the can of worms that is Sales and Income tax debates, getting back to the issue at hand.

1. The Marine Patrol is funded through boat registations, not the general fund (Taxes).

2. Boat registrations in NH have been on the decline over the past several years. Meaning the budget for the Marine Patrol has been affected.

3. Boat registration fees have not increased while the costs of operating, maintaining the fleet of Marine Patrol boats, and manpower costs has. So couple that with a drop in the funding from the number of boats registered in NH and you get a negative impact on the Marine Patrol budget.

4. If you pay your boat registration bill via the town in which you live or own property, the town takes a cut of the payment, an agent fee if you will, further reducing the amont of money getting to the Marine Patrol

5. Laws approved by the legislature that "don't cost anything" really do!

So with boat registrations dropping and the Marine Patrol not getting funding from taxpayer sources there are two alternatives. Raise the fees or cut the Marine Patrol.

Which do you want to do?

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

Originally Posted by wifi

Lets take a hypothetical example: Suppose you spent most of your money buying a waterfront home on Meredith Neck, and the rest of your money buying a condo in Waterville Valley. Now you have no money left and hence no 'ability to pay' (where have I heard this before?) taxes. Should it be my responsibility to carry the freight on the value of property you now own?

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but if I don't pay my property taxes in your example, at some point, the town will seize the property for non-payment and eventually auction it off for the taxes due. So no, it's not your responsibility. If I have to pay a tax, I still prefer a tax based on one's ability to pay.

Originally Posted by wifi

YES, I agree assessments ummm.. lets say have a long way go to before being 'fair'.

They will never be fair.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by wifi

The exact reason no one in their right mind wants a sales or income tax in NH. Just control spending instead.

I love hearing these arguments. The state spending is what it is. The problem in NH, is not that the state spending is out of control, anymore then anyother state. The problem is that unlike other states, NH has limited where it can take money from. So while other states raise money through sales tax and Income Tax, thus keeping property taxes in check. NH has decided to do a majority of it funding through Property Tax and assesing use fees... yes registering your boat is nothing more then a use fee.

Now because of this things like boat registrations are going to go up so that the MP can be funded. I am not surprised by this and no else should be either. The only thing I want to know is that the Money I put towards my boat does indeed go towards the MP, state access to public bodies of water etc. And doesn't end up in the general fund, with out strings attached. As long as the Money is going where it should I have not problem with the cost of registraring my boat going up.

People run scared of Income and Sales tax, because they don't take the time to understand how it would change the burden. Now I am not saying the property tax is ever going to go back down it will not. However if NH doesn't want to see property tax increases any more, of use fees continue to rise. Then the people of NH, better dam well start learning more, and educating themselve so that they understand the financial burdens of the state aren't going anywhere... However they can help shift the burden from a few select area's to others.

I have often said, a simple 1 % sales tax in NH would lead to an enourmous income for the state. And if it was implimented with controls, would solve most of the states budgetary short falls.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by PC31

If you register in Mass you will have to pay sales tax (based on price of boat when purchased) on both boats.
Good luck with that!

You have to be careful with this one... If you buy the boat in NH and leave it there you are required to register the boat in NH. However, your home state still wants the sales and excise tax.

I can speak about what Maine does. If you finance the boat through a Maine bank, they will come looking for the sales tax. If you buy the boat in NH (and are a Maine resident) and then eventually sell the boat to someone in Maine, the Maine revenue service will send you a nice little letter about the boat sales tax never having been properly paid and will kindly tell you the amount to fork over.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

I love hearing these arguments. The state spending is what it is. The problem in NH, is not that the state spending is out of control, anymore then anyother state. The problem is that unlike other states, NH has limited where it can take money from. So while other states raise money through sales tax and Income Tax, thus keeping property taxes in check. NH has decided to do a majority of it funding through Property Tax and assesing use fees... yes registering your boat is nothing more then a use fee.

Now because of this things like boat registrations are going to go up so that the MP can be funded. I am not surprised by this and no else should be either. The only thing I want to know is that the Money I put towards my boat does indeed go towards the MP, state access to public bodies of water etc. And doesn't end up in the general fund, with out strings attached. As long as the Money is going where it should I have not problem with the cost of registraring my boat going up.

People run scared of Income and Sales tax, because they don't take the time to understand how it would change the burden. Now I am not saying the property tax is ever going to go back down it will not. However if NH doesn't want to see property tax increases any more, of use fees continue to rise. Then the people of NH, better dam well start learning more, and educating themselve so that they understand the financial burdens of the state aren't going anywhere... However they can help shift the burden from a few select area's to others.

I have often said, a simple 1 % sales tax in NH would lead to an enourmous income for the state. And if it was implimented with controls, would solve most of the states budgetary short falls.

You are dreaming if you think it will stay at 1%. As a previous NH resident who now lives in Maine, trust me when I say to stay away from the income and sales taxes. RUN!!!

I pay high property taxes in Maine. Even still, if you doubled my property taxes and took away the sales and income taxes I would be thousands of dollars farther ahead.

Maine has every tax under the sun and still has huge shortfalls.

Do not fall for the income and sales tax trap. You will regret it. I can't wait for the day to return as a NH resident.

[tis]

Originally Posted by lawn psycho

You are dreaming if you think it will stay at 1%. As a previous NH resident who now lives in Maine, trust me when I say to stay away from the income and sales taxes. RUN!!!

I pay high property taxes in Maine. Even still, if you doubled my property taxes and took away the sales and income taxes I would be thousands of dollars farther ahead.

Maine has every tax under the sun and still has huge shortfalls.

Do not fall for the income and sales tax trap. You will regret it. I can't wait for the day to return as a NH resident.

Absolutely, you are so right! LIF is a dreamer to think that. We HAVE taken the time to understand. As you said, look at Maine, and as Pineneedles said, look at Conn. I remember when Conn. put in that sales tax, it was going to solve all their problems. Right.
As far as I am concerned cut MP, cut lots of spending. It won't bother me one single bit.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by tis

Absolutely, you are so right! LIF is a dreamer to think that. We HAVE taken the time to understand. As you said, look at Maine, and as Pineneedles said, look at Conn. I remember when Conn. put in that sales tax, it was going to solve all their problems. Right.
As far as I am concerned cut MP, cut lots of spending. It won't bother me one single bit.

Now this is interesting..... TIS, do you realize that if they cut the MP, then there would be no policing on the lakes. The noise laws, hell even what ever they do for the speed limit law would be all for not. If people think the lake is bad now, with out the MP it would be every boater for themselves.

Now what spending would you like to see cut.....

Let see how about the State Police???
or how about the highway dept...... what is going ot happen when it snows

alright so cutting those things may be extreme but they are cuts right.

Now don't get me wrong, any government has room to cut. But it isn't as easy as everyone wants it to be.

Now as for those that think they are better of with out Income or Sales Tax, let me say this. At this point, you may definately be better of with just the property tax. But there is a threshold.... and eventually the Property tax will get to be to much. When you average person can no longer afford to live in NH, then what? Remember Income and Sales tax is based upon someone income level... the more you want the more you make the more you pay.... Property Tax on the other hand is what it is..... if you are an average individual or a multi-millionare, the particular piece of property is taxed the same. The Rich guy may be able to afford it but the average Joe can't..... So what happens to the state when property taxes are so high that an average Joe can't afford to own property???????? That is where NH is headed.... they will be the first state to find that out.......

Remember this, no matter what the money is going to be raised.... either give the legislature other arena's to spread the burden too, or don't complain, when it is 200$ to registrar your boat, or 1000$ to registrar your car, or you are having to sell you family home because the property taxes are to much.

As for lawn physco comment, I really doubt you would be better off, pay double the property tax.... remember you don't just pay state income Tax, there is federal income tax..... I have done the calculations for myself here in Massachusetts...... it is all a mute point.... you really just still pay the same amount to the state.

[NoRegrets]

Every penny the governmeent spends means a tax or fee that needs to be collected from the population. Currently in Washington they have evolved to our current situation where every dollar they spend includes 43 cents that they borrowed. This is an extreme preversion of a process. NH is nowhere near that level of incompetance. IFALLOWED - give the state government more money and it may create a rush to spending caused by well meaning politicians that will get us into the same budget crisis as Calif, Conn, Mass, NJ, NY, Minn, etc.
Saying no to big government and new taxes is the only sure fire way to keep the budget in check.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Now this is interesting..... TIS, do you realize that if they cut the MP, then there would be no policing on the lakes. The noise laws, hell even what ever they do for the speed limit law would be all for not. If people think the lake is bad now, with out the MP it would be every boater for themselves.

Now what spending would you like to see cut.....

Let see how about the State Police???
or how about the highway dept...... what is going ot happen when it snows

alright so cutting those things may be extreme but they are cuts right.

Now don't get me wrong, any government has room to cut. But it isn't as easy as everyone wants it to be.

Now as for those that think they are better of with out Income or Sales Tax, let me say this. At this point, you may definately be better of with just the property tax. But there is a threshold.... and eventually the Property tax will get to be to much. When you average person can no longer afford to live in NH, then what? Remember Income and Sales tax is based upon someone income level... the more you want the more you make the more you pay.... Property Tax on the other hand is what it is..... if you are an average individual or a multi-millionare, the particular piece of property is taxed the same. The Rich guy may be able to afford it but the average Joe can't..... So what happens to the state when property taxes are so high that an average Joe can't afford to own property???????? That is where NH is headed.... they will be the first state to find that out.......

Remember this, no matter what the money is going to be raised.... either give the legislature other arena's to spread the burden too, or don't complain, when it is 200$ to registrar your boat, or 1000$ to registrar your car, or you are having to sell you family home because the property taxes are to much.

As for lawn physco comment, I really doubt you would be better off, pay double the property tax.... remember you don't just pay state income Tax, there is federal income tax..... I have done the calculations for myself here in Massachusetts...... it is all a mute point.... you really just still pay the same amount to the state.

Are you a local politician? (serious question)

As far as the math, it's quite simple. I get hammered with proprty taxes and yet Maine still has sales and income taxes. More taxes added to the collection stream are not the answer.
I have a family member who does taxes professionally and every spring this same topic comes up when he does ours. I would be about $6k further in the black if my family moved back to NH, living in a omparable town and home.

As far as it being a wash, no way. Again, double my property taxes and and get rid of the sales and income tax and I'm way ahead. Maine deductions do not follow the Federal return in several area. Hence you can have a sizeable Federal return and owe on the state return. Been there, done that.

[tis]

The government was created to take care of our infrastructure and defend our country. When it became our nanny, taking care of all of us, is when we went out of control. And they really don't give a damn about us, they just want votes. They want us to be dependent on the government just like we are! I believe anything they cut would be taken up by the private sector. After all there are tons of programs that overlap and are unnecessary, unless of course it is your favorite little baby. That is the problem people want their own favorite little thing. Of course it is easy for me to say, because I am the PAYER, not the receiver.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Now this is interesting..... TIS, do you realize that if they cut the MP, then there would be no policing on the lakes. The noise laws, hell even what ever they do for the speed limit law would be all for not. If people think the lake is bad now, with out the MP it would be every boater for themselves.

Now what spending would you like to see cut.....

Let see how about the State Police???
or how about the highway dept...... what is going ot happen when it snows

alright so cutting those things may be extreme but they are cuts right.

Now don't get me wrong, any government has room to cut. But it isn't as easy as everyone wants it to be.

Now as for those that think they are better of with out Income or Sales Tax, let me say this. At this point, you may definately be better of with just the property tax. But there is a threshold.... and eventually the Property tax will get to be to much. When you average person can no longer afford to live in NH, then what? Remember Income and Sales tax is based upon someone income level... the more you want the more you make the more you pay.... Property Tax on the other hand is what it is..... if you are an average individual or a multi-millionare, the particular piece of property is taxed the same. The Rich guy may be able to afford it but the average Joe can't..... So what happens to the state when property taxes are so high that an average Joe can't afford to own property???????? That is where NH is headed.... they will be the first state to find that out.......

Remember this, no matter what the money is going to be raised.... either give the legislature other arena's to spread the burden too, or don't complain, when it is 200$ to registrar your boat, or 1000$ to registrar your car, or you are having to sell you family home because the property taxes are to much.

As for lawn physco comment, I really doubt you would be better off, pay double the property tax.... remember you don't just pay state income Tax, there is federal income tax..... I have done the calculations for myself here in Massachusetts...... it is all a mute point.... you really just still pay the same amount to the state.

Forgot to mention, even with the sales and income taxes, the Maine vehicle excise tax is higher than NH. I pray that NH never falls for the income and sales tax trap.

[AC2717]

Talk about getting my thread Hy-Jacked

[robmac]

I remember way back when I lived in MA. The cry came out for a temporary tax increase,well it never to this day has gone down. If my company spends to much money,well I take it on the chin. Isn't that a BUDGET?? You spend to much look at areas to purchase and spend better on services. I haven't had a raise in 5 years and I still make ends meet,it's not rocket science give them another revenue source and it'll be gone before it's collected.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

I have often said, a simple 1 % sales tax in NH would lead to an enourmous income for the state. And if it was implimented with controls, would solve most of the states budgetary short falls.

I wonder what year this was first said in Mass?

[Pineedles]

Just to keep the record straight. I am not opposed to boat registration fees going up if it all goes to MP. We need more enforcement for boneheads out there. I am simply warning of "new" taxes that will supposedly cure temporary ills.

[Lakegeezer]

The increases in watercraft registration fees make sense to me. After the business and interest/dividend taxes, the state lives largely on usage tax and profits on liquor. The state is going broke. Yes, it should find services to cut, but today, it is going broke. Doubling the registration fees on watercraft use causes grumbling, but most people will dig into their wallets and pay it. The public also grumbles about needing more enforcement of the marine nanny laws, including speed, passage and rafting. This doesn't come for free. Pay for play, I say.

[PC31]

Originally Posted by lawn psycho

You have to be careful with this one... If you buy the boat in NH and leave it there you are required to register the boat in NH. However, your home state still wants the sales and excise tax.

I can speak about what Maine does. If you finance the boat through a Maine bank, they will come looking for the sales tax. If you buy the boat in NH (and are a Maine resident) and then eventually sell the boat to someone in Maine, the Maine revenue service will send you a nice little letter about the boat sales tax never having been properly paid and will kindly tell you the amount to fork over.

I have not had that problem yet.

[BroadHopper]

I have lived in Mass, but kept my boat in NH. Mass have never ask for taxes on the boat. Probably because I purchase my boats in NH.

I registered my motor vehicles in Mass. The boat and boat trailer were registered in NH because the boat and trailer were stored in NH. Same as the snow machine.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

I have lived in Mass, but kept my boat in NH. Mass have never ask for taxes on the boat. Probably because I purchase my boats in NH.

I registered my motor vehicles in Mass. The boat and boat trailer were registered in NH because the boat and trailer were stored in NH. Same as the snow machine.

I do the same, thing.... I also did this when I lived in vermont.... no problems.....

However as someone mentioned I have heard of Maine having some catch 22 with this practice.....

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

Originally Posted by tis

......I believe anything they cut would be taken up by the private sector......

I'm sorry but I think you're dreaming now. The reason the government is involved in so many programs is because the private sector can't be bothered; it cuts into their profits!

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

......However as someone mentioned I have heard of Maine having some catch 22 with this practice.....

Leave it to Maine! They're the only state I know that will tax BOTH spouses income if only one of them works in Maine!!!! It may be a beautiful state but talk about taxation without representation!!

I apologize for going off-topic again.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

I have lived in Mass, but kept my boat in NH. Mass have never ask for taxes on the boat. Probably because I purchase my boats in NH.

I registered my motor vehicles in Mass. The boat and boat trailer were registered in NH because the boat and trailer were stored in NH. Same as the snow machine.

I'm speaking from experience. I don't know about other states. When I financed my first boat through a bank in CT, I was fine. I then refinanced it to a lower rate a year later at a local in Maine and about 2 months after that I got a letter from the Maine Revenue service. Boat was never in the state of Maine as it was slipped and stored at Winni.

A co-worker had his boat in NH and when he sold it to a guy in Maine, he got bagged. The new owner went to register the boat it requires listing the previous owner. It popped up that the sales tax had never been paid on the boat. He had to cough it up.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by lawn psycho

I'm speaking from experience. I don't know about other states. When I financed my first boat through a bank in CT, I was fine. I then refinanced it to a lower rate a year later at a local in Maine and about 2 months after that I got a letter from the Maine Revenue service. Boat was never in the state of Maine as it was slipped and stored at Winni.

A co-worker had his boat in NH and when he sold it to a guy in Maine, he got bagged. The new owner went to register the boat it requires listing the previous owner. It popped up that the sales tax had never been paid on the boat. He had to cough it up.

All the more reason not to do business in Maine. I finance my boat from a CU in CA. I don't think it was required to tell Mass state. Commonwealth? Whatever.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

All the more reason not to do business in Maine. I finance my boat from a CU in CA. I don't think it was required to tell Mass state. Commonwealth? Whatever.

The way Ma. and Vt work, is that you only pay Tax on the boat if you register and use it in the state ( a use Tax). Much like a car. If you use it else where and it never comes into the state then they just don't care. However don't be a Ma. / VT resident and get caught using a boat in Ma. / VT that is registered in another state, and has your name on the tittle....

Now when it comes to the trailer, if you have a seperate Bill of Sale for the trailer, Ma. will let you register the trailer and only pay tax on that. In Vermont however this didn't work, if I had registered the boat trailer they would have taxed me for the boat too....

In short all states handle things differently.

All this I became very aware of, when I looked into Boating Cirtificates, ownership, and registration laws, some odd years back......

[Airwaves]

Just for the record. The Massachusetts "sales" tax is actually a sales and use tax. If it's not purchased or used in Massachusetts then the state has no claim on it. (See recent court ruling re: Town Fair Tire)
Massachusetts imposes the "sales" tax when the boat is registered in Massachusetts, not at the point of purchase.

Now, getting back to the issue at hand. I got my renewal today and it was up by $20. This is the only source of funding that I am aware of for the NH Marine Patrol.

If you want to look at some of the boating stats many of the rescues performed by the Marine Patrol, especially early in the season, are of vessels that do not pay the registration fee! Think about it!

[fatlazyless]

Excuuuuuse me while I briefly interupt this love-in over property taxes and an income tax.....ahem.....and add a suggestion on the boat registration fees.

Maybe I am all wet on this, but as I recall, the individual marinas were to get a pay raise from one to five dollars for doing the registration paperwork. But, by going to the Marine Patrol in Glendale-Gilford, you save the five dollar charge. Plus, the Marine Patrol knows all the ins & outs, ups & downs of boat registration fees and is most likely to get it correct the first time. Plus, you get to park in one of their three designated visiter parking spaces which are located about 12" from the lake.........way cool.......every business should have parking like this!

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

"...If you want to look at some of the boating stats many of the rescues performed by the Marine Patrol, especially early in the season, are of vessels that do not pay the registration fee! Think about it...!"

Why, those scoff-laws!!! The Marine Patrol should be cracking down on people who don't pay the Registration Fee!

Ohhhhhh... You meant the paddlers, rowers, windsurfers, sailboats under 12' in length, plus inflatable craft who aren't yet affected by taxation—I get it now.

Yup: New eight-dollar fees will go a long way in helping the MPs enforce stickers on paddlecraft—and to pay the retirements of those State employees hired to collect the then-new $23 fees placed on sailboats back in the 80s).

Why not a Luxury Tax on canoes assessed at over $150?

Say, hiring more government workers will reduce unemployment!

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Why, those scoff-laws!!! The Marine Patrol should be cracking down on people who don't pay the Registration Fee!

Ohhhhhh... You meant the paddlers, rowers, windsurfers, sailboats under 12' in length, plus inflatable craft who aren't yet affected by taxation—I get it now.

Yup: New eight-dollar fees will go a long way in helping the MPs enforce stickers on paddlecraft—and to pay the retirements of those State employees hired to collect the then-new $23 fees placed on sailboats back in the 80s).

Why not a Luxury Tax on canoes assessed at over $150?

Say, hiring more government workers will reduce unemployment!

So now you're worried about MP enforcement costs? Sailboats, canoes and kayaks account for a large part of MP assists as it is. Same with smaller fishing boats, as evidenced from the spring. I would assume as more people get interested in paddling and sailing, more assists will be needed.

The NHMP has a big job statewide. Accidents and incidents are up, and comparable to the great weather summer/Fall of 2006, when there was a lot more boating activity and good weather than this year. Just like everything else, the MP either gets more funding, or cuts services. Maybe they should act like Sea Tow, and just assist those that are paying members

Courtesy inspections are way, way down since 2005. While other government agencies have become bloated, perhaps the MP's budget needs to be brought higher? A cursory look at the stats would show this is true. How else are they going to be able to enforce and argue about rafting in Braun Bay?

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by APS

Ohhhhhh... You meant the paddlers, rowers, windsurfers, sailboats under 12' in length, plus inflatable craft who aren't yet affected by taxation—I get it now.

Yup: New eight-dollar fees will go a long way in helping the MPs enforce stickers on paddlecraft—and to pay the retirements of those State employees hired to collect the then-new $23 fees placed on sailboats back in the 80s).

Yep, that's exactly who I mean, the estimated hundreds of thousands of paddlers, rowers, windsurfers, sailboats under 12 feet that use the waters and need to call the Marine Patrol for help. Not to mention the fact that when those vessels are found floating in the lakes or ocean capsized there is no way to check with the owner to see if it broke loose or someone is actually missing (currently there is no way to know who such a vessel belongs to) so search and rescue is launched...

Yep, that's exactly who I mean!

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Originally posted by APS

Yep, that's exactly who I mean, the estimated hundreds of thousands of paddlers, rowers, windsurfers, sailboats under 12 feet that use the waters and need to call the Marine Patrol for help. Not to mention the fact that when those vessels are found floating in the lakes or ocean capsized there is no way to check with the owner to see if it broke loose or someone is actually missing (currently there is no way to know who such a vessel belongs to) so search and rescue is launched...

Yep, that's exactly who I mean!

Living on the Broads, I see many non motorized water-crafts up in deep doo doo when the weather changes. I almost always be the good Samaritan to go to the rescue. I would call the MP first, before I leave. Majority of the time, I don't see the MP. Pretty soon, my boat will be outlawed and they will have to fend for themselves. Be careful what you wish for.

[OCDACTIVE]

just paid mine..... OUCH!!! but don't have to worry about that for another 12 months...

why does the legislature have it out for boaters????

Just waiting for the Trailer and Truck reg now... :-(

[SIKSUKR]

I would never pay for the registration until right before I use my boat.Why have somebody else use your money for free?

[fatlazyless]

At 230 feet and a whole lot of horsepower, anybody know how much it costs to register the Mount Washington now with the new higher rates? I'd figure it myself except I am too lazy!

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Just waiting for the Trailer and Truck reg now... :-(

My trailer reg was sent to me mid October, did you misplace yours?

[BroadHopper]

I've had my truck and boat registration sent to me. How do I get my trailer registration sent?

[tis]

Our trailer registrations come to us with our car registrations in the month of your birth. The boats, however come for everyone in December, but we haven't gotten ours yet. I hope they aren't lost.

[Greene's Basin Girl]

Originally Posted by tis

Our trailer registrations come to us with our car registrations in the month of your birth. The boats, however come for everyone in December, but we haven't gotten ours yet. I hope they aren't lost.

I received my boat registration this week and I registered it in Concord today. The 2010 decals are orange in color and very thin. The registration office told me to be careful when putting them on in the spring because they will rip easy. They look almost transpatent.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

just paid mine..... OUCH!!! but don't have to worry about that for another 12 months...

why does the legislature have it out for boaters????

Just waiting for the Trailer and Truck reg now... :-(

OCD, with the boat fixed, the new graffics on, after a day or two on the water you won't even remember the pain of any of the expenses.......

[gtagrip]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

I would never pay for the registration until right before I use my boat.Why have somebody else use your money for free?

I agree with Siksukr, why pay for your registration now when you can't use your boat for another 5 months. Rather use that money now for Xmas gifts!

[fpartri497]

Originally Posted by gtagrip

I agree with Siksukr, why pay for your registration now when you can't use your boat for another 5 months. Rather use that money now for Xmas gifts!

Why do we have to pay for a full year anyway when we only use our boats six Mths.?

[Lakegeezer]

Originally Posted by fpartri497

Why do we have to pay for a full year anyway when we only use our boats six Mths.?

Good point! It would be nice to take the decal off the boat and slap it on the snowmobile.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

Good point! It would be nice to take the decal off the boat and slap it on the snowmobile.

And onto the pickup for the ride home.

[trfour]

Ya, it all makes you wonder, Who is running the State Of The State, these days?

[ApS]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

"...I almost always be the good Samaritan to go to the rescue...Majority of the time, I don't see the MP..."

Yup...me too—and me neither.

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Yep, that's exactly who I mean, the estimated hundreds of thousands of paddlers, rowers, windsurfers, sailboats under 12 feet that use the waters and need to call the Marine Patrol for help. Not to mention the fact that when those vessels are found floating in the lakes or ocean capsized there is no way to check with the owner to see if it broke loose or someone is actually missing (currently there is no way to know who such a vessel belongs to) so search and rescue is launched...

1) The Coast Guard brought The Federal Government down on themselves—(many recent unnecessary searches, by formerly failing to conduct necessary searches).
—Soundings magazine this month

2) Paddlers are generally in agreement that recovery of lost canoes is futile, even though identification is engraved or embossed into every canoe and kayak: Not only are they generally in disagreement with the need (and cost) of registration, I'd say they're well-organized—beat back a 2007 effort by Senators Barnes, Gallus, and D'Allesandro—and are actually looking for a fight!

3) I'm at a loss as to when the MPs have ever conducted a genuine rescue of a paddler: Every instance I've witnessed has been a "Good Samaritan" rescue.

4) There are even times the MPs should not be called—such as after dark, a nail-biting error I once made.

5) Few states require paddleboat registration, and Maine recently rejected it.

STATES WITH CANOE & KAYAK REGISTRATION REQUIREMENTS

Alaska Requires registration of all paddlecraft
Arizona Registration requirements repealed in 2000 due to lack of funding, high cost of administration, and ineffective ability to return services to the paddlesports community at a level corresponding to the fees.
Illinois Requires registration of all paddlecraft
Ohio Requires registration of all paddlecraft.
Oklahoma Requires registration of all paddlecraft
Iowa Requires registration of all paddlecraft
Minnesota Requires registration of all paddlecraft
Pennsylvania Requires registration of all paddlecraft

6) Before any other state, wouldn't you think a "Live Free or Die" state would agree with Arizona's reasons?

7) All that said:

I—more than anybody else—agree that powerboaters should conduct an all-out effort to register the perhaps hundreds of thousands of New Hampshire rowboats, canoes, inflatables, kite-surfers, wind-surfers, kayaks, rowing sculls, and all sailboats under 12'...

...AND the effort should definitely be made before 2010 has run its course!

[fatlazyless]

Well now......Minnesota.....the land of 10,000 lakes....and each lake with a big number of kayaks and canoes out fish'n for walleye and muskelunges.....I dunno.....if Minnesota can register kayak & canoes....then why not New Hampshire, too?

As the rules are now, probably just that Mokai motorized kayak has to be registered. So, why not for small 9' kayaks too? Do not all the boaters need to pitch in and help to bail out the state budget before NH goes broke?

[NoBozo]

There was a time not so long ago in a place far far away, (Newport,RI) when Floating Docks, sometimes called Mooring Floats had to be registered as boats....with numbers, stickers and all. Even a swim raft would qualify under some circumstances.

Mooring floats have become popular in small harbors where swinging space for anchored or moored boats is tight. A mooring float is nothing more than a floating dock permanently moored away from shore and having two or more boats "tied up" on either side of the float. .... OMG: A RAFT. The idea being to accommodate multiple boats in a tighter space than would otherwise be possible. As often as not, depending on location, the mooring float is moored at both ends to prevent swinging. Camden, ME has done this for years.

I always like to look at the bright side: It might be cheaper to REGISTER your floating dock as a boat, than have to pay Real Estate Taxes on it. NB

OH My: I just got a brain cramp: An annual Rafting Permit STICKER for Braun Bay.

[Seeker]

Haven't seen my boat registrations yet but can't wait to see the increase. I have 6 boats, 3 that require registration and I register each year. This year 2 never went in the water so I will not register next year until just before (or if) I launch. If I were required to register my canoe, kayak and peddle boat I would sell them.
On the subject of auto/trailer regs my Town clerk gets mine then sends me a letter with the amounts to make out to the state and to the town. My birthday is this month and the fees hurt this year.
One way to make it hurt a little less is that if you have quite a few vehicles that are registered in both your and your wife's names you might want to split them with your name first on half and hers first on the other half as the first names' birthday is when registration is required. Course if you're born in the same month....

[Greene's Basin Girl]

Originally Posted by Seeker

Haven't seen my boat registrations yet but can't wait to see the increase. I have 6 boats, 3 that require registration and I register each year. This year 2 never went in the water so I will not register next year until just before (or if) I launch. If I were required to register my canoe, kayak and peddle boat I would sell them.
On the subject of auto/trailer regs my Town clerk gets mine then sends me a letter with the amounts to make out to the state and to the town. My birthday is this month and the fees hurt this year.
One way to make it hurt a little less is that if you have quite a few vehicles that are registered in both your and your wife's names you might want to split them with your name first on half and hers first on the other half as the first names' birthday is when registration is required. Course if you're born in the same month....

I registered my boat last week and it didn't seem like it was much of an increase. The state told me the big increase is on new boat registrations.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by DEJ

My trailer reg was sent to me mid October, did you misplace yours?

Strange, no..... I thought it would go by your DOB as does my Truck. Is this not the case? could it be that I also registered it in May for the first time?

[tis]

OCD, as has been stated a couple of times your trailer reg. does come with your car registrations in the month of your birth. Or DOB OF whoever's name they are registered in.

[Breakwater]

My boat registration is a bargain compared to my snowmobile reg. After club dues...$73. If I wait to make sure there is snow...$78. because you can't join a club and register on short notice. Give me my boat reg and the guarantee of 6 months of open water!

While I choose to boat and sled, the boat reg increase was definitely overdue. I question how Marine Patrol survived this long (seven years or so of dedicated funding) under the old formula.

I do support paddlers registering as well. They use the ramps that are paid for by access funds raised by powerboat registrations! Ramps that I can't launch at because they are "car top". They need to be searched for after being reported overdue, resources are used when they capsize and drown, they benefit from buoys and signage, and they are using a resource that everyone knows needs protecting. Time to pay the piper!

[John A. Birdsall]

How many of you can recall the license plate registration. That was for the motor not the boat. Sometimes a real pain in the neck. Have two outboards fine you have two registrations. And when they changed over to the system we use now the grumbling of marking up the bow with numbers. We did not even have the internet and the grumbling could be heard around the lake.

fees for reg. has gone up, and I have inherited a 26' boat this year. wait till the state realizes that a pontoon has two or three logs. They will try and say that is double the registration. And I have been trying for three months to change the registration from my fathers name to mine. They were nice though they said wait till after the first of the year and you will only register it once. If I registered it now I would have to pay for 2009 and ineight days I would have to pay again for 2010. Now that to me is kind of dumb.

Don't forget about them mooring fees. I think they are 25 to 30 @

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Breakwater

I do support paddlers registering as well. They use the ramps that are paid for by access funds raised by powerboat registrations! Ramps that I can't launch at because they are "car top".

So this is an issue I always find myself straddling the fence on. Sure I understand the idea that paddlers use ramps, and rescue services etc. etc. etc. and sure enough some how they should help to fund these types of service I agree.

However what is next, having to have a tag to attach to my swim trunks when I go swimming somewhere else besides a beach being attended to by a life guard.

Now with that said, I think the real issue here is how things like the Marine Patrol and Search and Rescue are funded. Once again we find ourselves back at the State budget, spending and income. People need to Vote in change, and then make sure that change follows through with promises....

Back to the paddler issue.... the question here is how to handle this.... does each canoe, and kayak need a "access" sticker? ok... so then for me that would be 3 access sticker. I am not to worried about that... even if they are say 10 bucks that is only 30$ so the fiancee and I don't go out for breakfast one Saturday Morning a year. However what if they want to call it a registration... and I have to deal with bow numbers.... well then there is an accident, and insurance gets involved.... and the landslide goes on and on....

Now the other issue here, is that this is something that NH could be a Maverick and go out and do on their own.... but see they tried that with boat registrations.... You "Had" to register your boat in NH.... the the Feds, said we will take funding away if you don't adopt the Coast Guard practice for registration and adopt reciprocity....Wow was NH quick to standardized with the rest of the country.... So NH become the only state to require Canoes and Kayaks to register.... hummmm wonder how that is going to end up.....

My point is this... it might seem simple to say ya, let make the Kayaker and Canoeist pay some... And I can't totally disagree.... but there is more to be considered then meets the eye........

[Woodsy]

I do not have any problem with requiring non-powered watercraft to pay an "access fee" of $5 - $10 per craft. Full blown registrations are a completely different animal... no need for that.

A simple yearly sticker, same color as the powerboat sticker affixed to the watercraft would do.... fine for non compliance should equal the cost of the sticker + $10


Woodsy

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by John A. Birdsall

How many of you can recall the license plate registration. That was for the motor not the boat. Sometimes a real pain in the neck. Have two outboards fine you have two registrations. And when they changed over to the system we use now the grumbling of marking up the bow with numbers. We did not even have the internet and the grumbling could be heard around the lake.

fees for reg. has gone up, and I have inherited a 26' boat this year. wait till the state realizes that a pontoon has two or three logs. They will try and say that is double the registration. And I have been trying for three months to change the registration from my fathers name to mine. They were nice though they said wait till after the first of the year and you will only register it once. If I registered it now I would have to pay for 2009 and ineight days I would have to pay again for 2010. Now that to me is kind of dumb.

Don't forget about them mooring fees. I think they are 25 to 30 @

Just out of curiousity, do you recall what year did they start requiring bow numbers?

[Airwaves]

Originally Posted by Lawn psyco

Just out of curiousity, do you recall what year did they start requiring bow numbers?

Off the top of my head I don't recall the year, but it happened under pressure from the USCG. In order to boat on the ocean a vessel needs to have bow numbers or be documented. Because NH had license plates the Coast Guard had to register and assign bow numbers to NH ocean going recreational boats. They eventually stopped doing it and told NH to institute a bow number program or recreational boaters offshore would be in violation of the law. Initially after NH started issuing bow numbers they were not reciprocal so out of state boats needed to buy a NH registration decal to add to their out of state bow numbers. Eventually that went away as well.

As to a registration decal for currently unregistered boats, a simple solution would be a one time fee, assigning a number on a decal to be located on the vessel to serve two purposes. It would raise money and the number on the decal could be listed in a database identifying the owner so that if the boat broke free and was found floating capsized it would help in cutting down unnecessary SARs. When a currently unregistered boat is resold privately the new owner needs to notify the state paying a one time fee transferring the decal number to the new owner on the database. When purchased new via retail the owner gets a form to fill out and submit.

I think the one time fee is all that is probably necessary because there are easily hundreds of thousands of these boats in NH already, and probably thousands more sold every year in NH. It would more than fund the establishment of a database and add to the MP budget.

My personal choice for a penalty for not getting the decal is pretty Draconian. If a vessel is found floating around in the water capsized that does not have a decal it is seized by the state and sold to help recoup the cost of the SAR that was launched.

I would not make this something the MP could stop and check for a decal, but if there were a reason to stop a boat like this, the owner would be told to get a decal, then if he/she didn't within a certain period of time the vessel could be seized. Like I said, pretty Draconian but it would ensure compliance.

Just my $.02

[Senter Cove Guy]

I'm almost positive that I've got my 1988 plate hanging up in the garage.

[ApS]

Sounds right: using the last two letters in your registration number, and working backwards, it'll come out that "AA" was about 1988. That was also about the time the state also started required unpowered sailboats to "pay-up" for the temporary, but unregistered use of NH's wind.

Airwaves wrote:

"...I think the one time fee is all that is probably necessary because there are easily hundreds of thousands of these boats in NH already, and probably thousands more sold every year in NH. It would more than fund the establishment of a database and add to the MP budget...My personal choice for a penalty for not getting the decal is pretty Draconian. If a vessel is found floating around in the water capsized that does not have a decal it is seized by the state and sold to help recoup the cost of the SAR that was launched..."

1) With the new decals being reported "flimsy", this couldn't be applied to every capsized boat, particularly those involved in NHMP investigations.

2) Maine "just nixed [2005's] kayak/canoe registration fee".

"A lot of people in the state were annoyed with this. No surprise there that this was attached to a budget bill. Goes to show that you really do need a lot of support to avoid this type of legislation, not just boaters."

And while we're "annoying people", a kayak registration requirement should be rushed through the Legislature—to be effective in 2010—and see what happens to other Legislation.

3)

"Fees tend to be more punitive for canoe and kayak owners than motorboat owners. [These] boaters typically own more than a single canoe, kayak or raft. As a result, they pay a disproportionate share of boating fees as compared to the owner of a single, much more expensive powerboat. There is also a high rate of turnover of whitewater boats...

"Registration laws increase the operating costs for organizations. Thus the overhead increases for church and civic organizations, university programs, tour operators, commercial angling outfitters and whitewater outfitters, which might chill participation in the sport and the market."

"Registration requirements deter tourism. Since only a small handful of states require the registration and numbering of canoes, kayaks and rafts it creates an inconvenience and added cost for paddlers visiting a state with registration requirements. This discourages paddlers from coming to the state spending money for campgrounds, motels, food and gas eventually causing a decrease in tourism revenues and thereby negatively impacting the state economy.

"Registration does not increase or improve paddlesports safety. For instance in Connecticut, a bill was introduced in 2003 under the premise that it would improve safety; however, a study by the American Canoe Association found that the number of paddlesports fatalities in Connecticut has averaged 1.6 over the past 6 years. A registration requirement will not reduce the number of fatalities below 1.6 from the entire population of the state. Further, in a 1998 study, American Whitewater found that there were less than 2 fatalities per 100,000 participants. Again, registration will not reduce that rate since it is below the threshold for legislative efficacy and response."

http://www.americanwhitewater.org/co...r_registration

(The above link is not to the pre-eminent organization among the paddlesports).

Disclaimer:
Though I presently own three "manually-powered craft", I haven't put them in the water these past several years. My BIL does bring an inflatable kayak to Winnipesaukee in his RV; however, any visitor from a state that doesn't require registration isn't going to have a decal!

I'd say make it a voluntary measure those who desire payments to increase the MP budget—purchase a decal.

BTW:
One recent year, the NHMP budget included the purchase of a former oversized Coast Guard boat that throws a wake that's a menace to every canoe out there!

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Senter Cove Guy

I'm almost positive that I've got my 1988 plate hanging up in the garage.

I think that is about right too... My Parents and I moved east from Washington St. in 86 and it was 2 or 3 years after that, when the Plates stopped. Interestingly enough, the first year or two we just zipped tied the plate to the Outboard motor.... Then we decided the heck with it if we are going to have these plates lets follow the crowd, and mount it to the boat. Yep then the very next year Bow numbers..... I still remember my father looking at me telling me I should have made him wait one more year before mounting the plate.

[Airwaves]

I believe you are correct, I checked downstairs and the sailboat plate I have hanging on the wall is 1988, so 89 is probably the year of the switchover.

[no-engine]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

just paid mine..... OUCH!!! but don't have to worry about that for another 12 months...

why does the legislature have it out for boaters????

Just waiting for the Trailer and Truck reg now... :-(

Wait no more: there is a registration surcharge of $30 for vehicles!!!!!
YES - A SURCHARGE!

[TOAD]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

I do not have any problem with requiring non-powered watercraft to pay an "access fee" of $5 - $10 per craft. Full blown registrations are a completely different animal... no need for that.

A simple yearly sticker, same color as the powerboat sticker affixed to the watercraft would do.... fine for non compliance should equal the cost of the sticker + $10


Woodsy

I guess my stance is where does the government pig stop. It just keeps growing and eating into the wallets of taxpayers to support bloated governemnt perks, pensions, and flat out waste that are out of control.

The reasoning in the quote above gauls me. What's next? You'll need a government registration tag on your swim suit in order to go swimming in a lake or stream?

The relentless growth of government has to be stopped and stopped soon.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by TOAD

"...The relentless growth of government has to be stopped and stopped soon..."

We could move elections from November up to April 16th.

Originally Posted by Airwaves

"...the sailboat plate I have hanging on the wall is 1988, so 89 is probably the year of the switchover..."

As I recall, no-engine sailboats weren't "taxed".

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

"...the first year or two we just zipped tied the plate to the Outboard motor..."

AHA! You most likely had a Mercury over 20-HP back then.

[Woodsy]

Toad...

I am most certainly one of the biggest anti-spend advocates here on the board. I think your GW quote is absolutely spot on....

With that being said, I dont consider the NHMP part of the government bloat... they are funded soley by boat registrations (which have been declining for a few years) and Federal Grants. They do not get any $$$ from the State's general Fund. Essentially your boat registration is a 'Use tax". I dont have much of a problem with "use Taxes" as they only apply to certain people and can be avoided....

At this point, paddlers are not required to help pay for the NHMP, even though they are some of the more vocal NHMP critics. I have no problem with a $5 or $10 access sticker being required for paddlers.... They can help pay too!

Woodsy

Woodsy

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

Originally Posted by no-engine

Wait no more: there is a registration surcharge of $30 for vehicles!!!!!
YES - A SURCHARGE!

What's this about a surcharge?!? I always wait until May to register my boat because that's when I register my truck and trailer. Are you saying if I wait until May, I'm going to end up paying $30 extra?!?!? This is getting RIDICULOUS!!

Can anyone post a link to the RSA that includes this new "surcharge"?

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by APS

As I recall, no-engine sailboats weren't "taxed".

Sailboats over 16 or 20 feet with engines were required to be registered with a license plate then bow numbers...not everyone had just a sunfish you know!

[Sunbeam lodge]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Toad...

I am most certainly one of the biggest anti-spend advocates here on the board. I think your GW quote is absolutely spot on....

With that being said, I dont consider the NHMP part of the government bloat... they are funded soley by boat registrations (which have been declining for a few years) and Federal Grants. They do not get any $$$ from the State's general Fund. Essentially your boat registration is a 'Use tax". I dont have much of a problem with "use Taxes" as they only apply to certain people and can be avoided....

At this point, paddlers are not required to help pay for the NHMP, even though they are some of the more vocal NHMP critics. I have no problem with a $5 or $10 access sticker being required for paddlers.... They can help pay too!

Woodsy

Woodsy

Wait a minute. I allready pay on my 23 bowrider and jet ski. Why hit me again on the kyack. I can only use one at a time.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by no-engine

Wait no more: there is a registration surcharge of $30 for vehicles!!!!!
YES - A SURCHARGE!

Just got mine.. OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! my trailer is costing more then the boat reg!!!! Also, ORANGE stickers?? Orange????? YUCK! totally against the graphics.. I may be looking into getting coast guard documented..

[Woodsy]

Sunbeam... and others,

Its understandable how people who don't own motorized boats are against this proposal, they have been able to use the public resource of NH lakes, ponds and rivers for free... its in THIER best interest to keep it free (for them)!

But the safety and maintenance of those waterways does have a cost associated with it! During the Great Speed Limit debates this forum saw canoeists and kayakers complain vociferously about the NHMP and its lack of enforcement.... especially of the 150' rule. however they pay nothing to support the NHMP.

So you dont want a fee? How do YOU propose we fund the NHMP? Fuel, personnel and maintenance costs increase 3-5% every year. Should it stay as it is now where only powerboaters bear the burden of funding the NHMP? We see the results of that policy in the doubling of our registration fees.

Short of not paying anything at all, wouldnt you rather a $5 or $10 fee on your kayak instead of a double digit increase in your powerboat and PWC registration again in a couple of years? and again in couple more years?

I do understand that "getting hit" again with a small fee is definiately a pain! But lets try to be realistic... a $5 or $10 fee isnt going to really be all the detrimental compared to your motorized boat registration fees doubling every 2-3 years....

Requiring a NH waterway access decal would raise alot of $$$ for NHMP while minimally impacting EVERYONE who uses the water resources... and doesnt put the financial burden soley on one group.

Woodsy

[TOAD]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

But the safety and maintenance of those waterways does have a cost associated with it!


Requiring a NH waterway access decal would raise alot of $$$ for NHMP while minimally impacting EVERYONE who uses the water resources... and doesnt put the financial burden soley on one group.

Woodsy

Again I will ask.....if you go swimming shouldn't there be a resistration tag on your swim suit? Your arguements seem to support this stance...it's time to stop the pig! Yes it would raise a lot of dollars...which they are already raising and wasting!

$71,000 average government salary...$40,000 average private sector salary..and the private sector has fewer perks!

[ApS]

Surcharge? It does appear so:

http://ulocal.wmur.com/service/displ...77326&d=259694

http://www.nhliberty.org/bills/view/2010/HB1588

"...I have no problem with a $5 or $10 access sticker being required for paddlers..."

Yup. Tax that other guy.

"...Sailboats over 16 or 20 feet with engines were required to be registered with a license plate then bow numbers..."

Perhaps better as a question: "What year was registration required for non-powered sailboats?"

My 1980's photos of my various Hobie 16s and 18s show no bow numbers or registration decals—while in 1993, I was stopped for no decal on my Tornado 20 catamaran.

Since last year, I don't own any multihull sailboat. Say, catamarans have two hulls! Trimaran$ have THREE!

"...however they pay nothing to support the NHMP..."

When NHMP are given resources, they go unused.

"...Short of not paying anything at all, wouldnt you rather a $5 or $10 fee on your kayak instead of a double digit increase in your powerboat and PWC registration again in a couple of years? and again in couple more years...?...a $5 or $10 fee isnt going to really be all the detrimental compared to your motorized boat registration fees doubling every 2-3 years..."

With the advent of "Express Cruisers"—and ever-larger "Mush Cruisers"—the State's "take" of net revenues should parallel boat sizes nicely—just as it has for the past two decades.

"...Requiring a NH waterway access decal would raise alot of $$$ for NHMP while minimally impacting EVERYONE who uses the water resources...and doesnt put the financial burden soley on one group...I am most certainly one of the biggest anti-spend advocates here on the board..."

Y'know, the NHMP doesn't have a helicopter!

[no-engine]

Originally Posted by Wolfeboro_Baja

What's this about a surcharge?!? I always wait until May to register my boat because that's when I register my truck and trailer. Are you saying if I wait until May, I'm going to end up paying $30 extra?!?!? This is getting RIDICULOUS!!

Can anyone post a link to the RSA that includes this new "surcharge"?

I WROTE VEHICLES. Better believe: I registered my auto, and the surcharge is there. Included, but it's there; I don't think itemized..........

I did not say boats! VEHICLES! Trucks are included; I do not know about trailers.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Sunbeam... and others,

Its understandable how people who don't own motorized boats are against this proposal, they have been able to use the public resource of NH lakes, ponds and rivers for free... its in THIER best interest to keep it free (for them)!

But the safety and maintenance of those waterways does have a cost associated with it! During the Great Speed Limit debates this forum saw canoeists and kayakers complain vociferously about the NHMP and its lack of enforcement.... especially of the 150' rule. however they pay nothing to support the NHMP.

So you dont want a fee? How do YOU propose we fund the NHMP? Fuel, personnel and maintenance costs increase 3-5% every year. Should it stay as it is now where only powerboaters bear the burden of funding the NHMP? We see the results of that policy in the doubling of our registration fees.

Short of not paying anything at all, wouldnt you rather a $5 or $10 fee on your kayak instead of a double digit increase in your powerboat and PWC registration again in a couple of years? and again in couple more years?

I do understand that "getting hit" again with a small fee is definiately a pain! But lets try to be realistic... a $5 or $10 fee isnt going to really be all the detrimental compared to your motorized boat registration fees doubling every 2-3 years....

Requiring a NH waterway access decal would raise alot of $$$ for NHMP while minimally impacting EVERYONE who uses the water resources... and doesnt put the financial burden soley on one group.

Woodsy

I guess I am a little confused. When the original fee for non powered boats was proposed it was brought forward as a source of additional funding for Fish and Game, not NHMP. When did this change and why did NHMP get into the mix.

I myself would pay the fee, I at this time do not own a power boat (hopefully that will change soon), but I do own a few canoes and I would pay to put a sticker on each, but I would prefer to see my money go to Fish and Game not solely to NHMP, the reason you might ask, well it is simple. I for one do not paddle on large open lakes, mostly small rivers, whitewater and the occasional sail on a small lake. Most of the rivers that I paddle are not handled directly by NHMP but Fish and Game. If a search is needed it is handled by Fish and Game. Now I would be open to a split of the proceeds to benifit both agencies, but a far greater majority of paddlers do not paddle the big waters that NHMP patrols, I know these numbers are growing as more people seem to have kayaks these days. Obviously row boats and small sail craft are a MP issue more than F&G.

I can understand the want of NHMP to have access to more funding to help fund patrol of, lets face it larger craft. But having NHMP take money from a source that has very little need for patrol and regulation, from the agency thats sole mission is to preserve the areas and waterways that see more canoe and kayak traffic per season than the bigger waterways, just does not seem right. Not to mention that Fish and Game has a far more severe funding deficit compared to MP and it does not get any money from the general fund (I do not know if MP does or not).

I don't know, maybe these two agencies should really take a long look at merging and trying to fill the voids with the amount of overlap that would be present.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by TOAD

Again I will ask.....if you go swimming shouldn't there be a resistration tag on your swim suit? Your arguements seem to support this stance...it's time to stop the pig! Yes it would raise a lot of dollars...which they are already raising and wasting!

$71,000 average government salary...$40,000 average private sector salary..and the private sector has fewer perks!

Toad, I 100% hear what you are saying regarding government spending, but IMO you are comparing two different sides of the government coin. Asking participants of a particular activity to chip in money to help offset the overall costs of their use and protecting their enjoyment is very different than forcing someone that does not own a boat to pay a tax to help preserve and protect the use of water for boaters (someone else).

I personally feel the money would be going to the wrong agency if it goes to marine patrol. If that is the case then the majority of paddlers will be funding MP to patrol and protect not themselves but the larger craft that MP spends most of its time chasing.

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

Originally Posted by no-engine

I WROTE VEHICLES. Better believe: I registered my auto, and the surcharge is there. Included, but it's there; I don't think itemized..........

I did not say boats! VEHICLES! Trucks are included; I do not know about trailers.

My apologies, no-engine! Since the OP was about increased boat registration fees, I assumed the surcharge included boats too!

I have since found this in HB2 (the state budget bill);

AMENDED ANALYSIS

This bill:

.............
106. Increases certain motor vehicle registration fees and adds a surcharge for certain motor vehicle registration fees for the biennium ending June 30, 2011 and directs the department of safety to dedicate a portion of such funds to the highway and bridge betterment account in each year of the biennium.
.............
144:244 Department of Safety; Motor Vehicle Registration Fees Increased. Amend RSA 261:141, III(g)-(o) to read as follows:

(g)(1) For all motor vehicles other than those in RSA 261:141, I:

0-3000 lbs. $31.20 ($2.60 per month) (plus a $30 surcharge)

3001-5000 lbs. $43.20 ($3.60 per month) (plus a $30 surcharge)

5001-8000 lbs. $55.20 ($4.60 per month) (plus a $45 surcharge)

8001-[73,280] 10,000 lbs. $.96 per hundred lbs. gross weight (plus a $45 surcharge)

10,001-26,000 lbs. $.96 per hundred lbs. gross weight (plus a $55 surcharge)

26,001-73,280 lbs. $.96 per hundred lbs. gross weight (plus a $75 surcharge).

(2) Any surcharge under subparagraph (1) shall be prorated accordingly in the case of registrations issued for more or less than a 12-month period.
.............

Trailer registration fees also increased but I did not see any mention of a surcharge being applied to those registrations. So that explains that.

After I found the above, I found HB-1588-FN to be introduced in 2010 which, according to the bill analysis, would "..... change(s) the effective date of the expiration of the motor vehicle registration fee increase and surcharge from July 1, 2011 to July 1, 2010." We'll just have to wait and see what happens to this one!

[Woodsy]

Jmen...

I think some sort of split is a good idea.... 60/40 in favor of F&G? Either way it will help out both departments....

Not sure combining F&G & NHMP would be a good idea... but it certainly would warrant some closer study. I do know that the F&G officers are the most powerful form of LEO in the state....

Woodsy

[tis]

Wow, I didn't realize there was such a big increase for the big trucks. And then when mud season comes they restrict their use of the roads.

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by APS

Perhaps better as a question: "What year was registration required for non-powered sailboats?"

My 1980's photos of my various Hobie 16s and 18s show no bow numbers or registration decals—while in 1993, I was stopped for no decal on my Tornado 20 catamaran.

Since you were responding to my post involving a look at my SAILBOAT LICENSE PLATE which is the last plate I had prior to bow numbers confirming another's post that 1989 appears to have been the year when bow numbers went into effect in NH!

Yep, there were sailboats that were required to be registered

You should pay attention in class!

When NHMP are given resources, they go unused.

What unused resources were they given?

[NoBozo]

The place I rent a cabin on the lake has a Sunfish sailboat that still has a 1988 License plate scewed to the transom. The plate takes up the entire starboard side. If the transom was any smaller the plate wouldn't fit. The boat is 13' 10" long. NB

[ApS]

That's interesting; however, I own a 1963 Folbot kayak that the previous owner registered in New Hampshire—unnecessarily! 'Wonder how many of those unpowered craft are around, waiting to discover their unintended generosity of revenue to the state of New Hampshire?

(IOW, the registration of that particular Sunfish, like my kayak, could have been an error predating 1988).

I was interested for the beginning date that sailboats were required to be registered. (Such as the previously-given examples). I would fully expect that any boat with an engine would pay registration fees—at least since the 1950s.

[NoBozo]

The Sunfish I mentioned above was "rented' out to guests. Maybe it was considered "Comercial"...thus requiring plates. Just wondering. NB

[John A. Birdsall]

I am having a hard time recalling when the plates were replaced. It seems to me that My Dad had a Kingfisher boat that he had to put the numbers on the bow. He if I recall was upset with that. But we also had the Puddy tat boat at the same time but never went beyond the plate. I removed the Puddy-tat from the lake in Sept 1970 and it never returned to water again.

I was in the Navy then and I don't recall all the numbers.

As for the charge for row boats, canoes, kayaks and other materials I think they should be charged for use on the NH waterways just like moorings. Perhaps not as much but they are protected just as much as anything else and someone has to pay the protector.

[BroadHopper]

My 1988 Formula has the holes for the plate above the transom. I remember when the feds required bow numbers on all registered boats, they also required the state to use the fed navaid markers. A big arguement came up as to how the fed markers will work on the lake. The feds finally agreed that our bouy system is far better for NH lakes than the feds bouy system. Thanks God for that!

[Taz]

Liforelaxin, How do you figure that states who have sales and income taxes are holding property taxes in check? There are many other states that have high property taxes as well as income and sales taxes. If NH institutes a sales tax, income tax or both, I promise you property taxes will not go down. And then we will be paying high property taxes and an income tax and or sales tax.

I lived in Mass all my life until I moved to NH 11 years ago and I never want to go back. I am also paying much less in taxes in NH even though many think property taxes are high in NH. I beg to differ. My parents pay a similar amount in property taxes in Mass for a similar size house and their land is 3200 square feet. I have over an acre of land.

All states and towns across the country are complaining about decreased revenues no matter how many taxes they have. Elected officials who support higher taxes amaze me. Don't they know that raising taxes will lower tax revenues? Look at history and when taxes are lowered revenues increase. When taxes are raised revenues decrease.

[AC2717]

I own a single family in Pawtucket RI as well that I rent out. 5,000sqft of land, ustr under 1600sqft cape home

Last year property value was $235,300 and rate was 12.39 per $1000
taxes were roughly $2,900

This year property value $204,800 and rate was jumped to 17.78 per $1,000 taxes are now $3,641

Are you kidding me, I understand increasing the rate to hold taxes becuase the town is in need and with the drop in value, but to increase me $700 for the year and going down in value. This is kililng people down there, not to mention RI has the second highest unemployment rate in the country and highest average insurance costs in the country.

They wonder why the state is in trouble they themselves are bankrupting the state by over taxing those that can barely afford to pay, not to mention the house sat vacant for 5 months last year and it taks in $250 less a month than the monthly mortgage is.

[ghfromaltonbay]

Originally Posted by AC2717

I own a single family in Pawtucket RI as well that I rent out. 5,000sqft of land, ustr under 1600sqft cape home

This year property value $204,800 and rate was jumped to 17.78 per $1,000 taxes are now $3,641

Not to say I don't sympathize with that increase, but that's peanuts here in NJ. I own a 1400sq ft cape on 4700 sq ft of land. My taxes have increased from $2400 in 1990 to $6788 for 2009. We have also had an increase in the sales tax to 7% in 2008 and we also have a graduated income tax. Oh yeah, in the past 2 years, the sewer fees which used to be included in the tax bill are now billed separately, so tack on another $145 to my $6788 tax bill. I just cringe when I hear people say a sales or income tax will reduce property tax bills in NH. DON'T BELIEVE IT, FOLKS! We also have Atlantic City gambling which was supposed to help -- all it does is allow state govt. to spend more - mostly on corruption.

[TOAD]

Originally Posted by ghfromaltonbay

Not to say I don't sympathize with that increase, but that's peanuts here in NJ. I own a 1400sq ft cape on 4700 sq ft of land. My taxes have increased from $2400 in 1990 to $6788 for 2009. We have also had an increase in the sales tax to 7% in 2008 and we also have a graduated income tax. Oh yeah, in the past 2 years, the sewer fees which used to be included in the tax bill are now billed separately, so tack on another $145 to my $6788 tax bill. I just cringe when I hear people say a sales or income tax will reduce property tax bills in NH. DON'T BELIEVE IT, FOLKS! We also have Atlantic City gambling which was supposed to help -- all it does is allow state govt. to spend more - mostly on corruption.

I agree..very similiar here in the "Common" Wealth of Assachusetts. The private sector "pays" while the government "plays"!

What do they mean by "Common"wealth"?

[Seeker]

I remember in Mass when they put in the temporary 3% sales tax. I think Herter was governor? The only thing temporary about it was the 3% part.

My boat registrations only went up about 46% this year. What a deal.

[dan]

Originally Posted by Seeker

I remember in Mass when they put in the temporary 3% sales tax. I think Herter was governor? The only thing temporary about it was the 3% part.

My boat registrations only went up about 46% this year. What a deal.

Gov. Volpe ?