any advice on 1/6hp sump pump/ice eaters

[fatlazyless]

I am getting tired of writing
out these large checks every month to the Electric Coop, to keep my 1/2hp ice eater running and keep the dock fom freezing solid. Now, there are 1/2hp and 3/4hp ice eaters or circulators and I thought that by going with the 1/2hp unit, it would be economical to run, but it is not. Does anyone have any experience with using one of those $65.00, 1/6hp sump pumps for use as an ice circulator? My thinking is that it could be doable for my situation since the water is just 3 1/2' deep at the deepest spot. What sayeth thou, oh so well-informed and all-knowing, Winnipesaukee waterfront maintenance department?

[jimbob1603]

Hi,

Well, if I recall correctly, 1 horsepower equals about 476 watts. Thats a lot of power, month after month. Not to mention the cost of the circulator. I decided aginst this method because of the monthly electric costs.

Don't bother with a $65 'piece of plastic' sump pump from Home Depot. Those things were not constructed for continuous duty. The only good thing here is that you'll be iced in before the warranty runs out; but Home Depot will only play that game for so long.

Another alternative is the dock bubbler; but it has steep up-front costs. It consists of a linear air compressor ($890) and various lengths of vinyl tubing and PVC pipe (cheap$). It is controlled by a thermostat (on at 32, off at 45). Although expensive up front, it only consumes about 125 watts. The compressor is specifically designed to provide high volume, low pressure air 24x7x52; and is user servicable.

In conclusion, done properly, any method is going to be expensive and/or a pain in the butt. 'If you wanna play, you gotta pay!'. Any method has its pros & cons ...... I use a dock bubbler; and would do it again if the need ever arose.
Jim

[fatlazyless]

Thanks for the info about using an air compressor but it's the low up-front costs and relatively low electric bills that come with a $65.00 1/6hp plastic sump pump that attract me. In addition to using less electricity, the smaller pump would be much quieter what with less water being moved about on the surface.

Even if the open water around a dock freezes solid, this is not an uncorrectable problem. Fours inches of ice can be smashed up with a five foot long, railroad pry bar and probably with an eight pound sledge hammer, as well.

The continuous running use I could get out of a $65. sump pump is an unknown and, sure, it is not its' intended use, but how long will it go? Anyone use one?

[ITD]

Less,

I would think from your posts on "stinky" snowmobiles that you were against polluting the environment. Just think of the pollution from power plant emissions running your bubbler 24/7 creates. A much better solution would be for you to go to Wal-Mart and buy a hand operated ice chopper. You could go to your dock every few hours in the really cold weather and chop away. Think of the needless pollution you would prevent and the extra calories you would burn keeping you fit and trim. Yeah, just like walking through the woods in deep snow……

[fatlazyless]

Thanks for thinking about the environment and keeping the local air as clean & fresh as the 5000+ acres of beautifull Ossipee Mountains land tract now owned by the Lakes region Conservation Trust that is no longer a snowmobile friendly area. Now, that's a long rambling sentence, I admit, so why don't I just get back to electricity and air polution and a 1/6hp sump pump.

Isn't there a large electric generating plant in nearby Bridgewater, just south of Plymouth, that is fueled by a huge pile of wood chips. It burns the wood chips and makes electricity. So where's the pollution? Looking at the white plume of steam coming out its' exhaust chimney, it all just seems goes up into the air and disappear. So, where's all the air pollution here. It looks like there isn't any, at least that I can see or smell. And on the other hand, it only takes about two seconds, for someone to easily & quickly smell and see the exhaust plume of a two-stroke snowmobile. They do pollute quite a lot, more than mostly all motorcycles, lawnmowers and even all two-stroke outboards, imo. Compared to the Cog Rail Road choo-choo trains, they are not as dirty, so there is something dirtier than a snomobile, but they burn soft coal, and use 100+ year old engines.

[ApS]

I applaud FLL's innovative attempt to reduce the expense of winter dock protection.

With only 3½ feet of water there, can a sump pump circulate enough "warm" water from the bottom to substitute for the costly Ice Eater?

Have you considered using two alternating sump pumps on timers, since (apparently) they're not intended for extended use?

How about attaching metal (aluminum or steel) stock to the ice "pressure-side" of your pilings? Make them long enough to touch the bottom, and perhaps they'll conduct enough "warmth" to slice through the ice as the ice pushes against the piling.

Have you tried to straighten a piling yourself after ice has pushed it (even with Ice Eaters)?

It's a bear (but can be done).

[ITD]

Ok FLL,

I don't think you're looking at the right specifications. You need to look at the power consumed, not the power produced (HP). I decided to use about 8 minutes of my life to help you a little. I looked up a 1/6 hp sump pump
(http://www.littlegiant.com/framenav-pumps.html ) and found it rated at 5 amps 120 V. Putting on my engineering hat I know that :

P(Watt) = V(volts)*I(current)=120*5= 600 watts. (You pay the electric company for watts used)

I also looked up a 1/2 hp ice eater (http://www.marine-electronics-unlimi...ater+P500.html)

and lo and behold it also was rated at 120V 5 amps which calculates to be 600 watts, more horsepower, same energy usage. The ice eater claims to have an energy efficient motor, while the sump pump is cheap. Now the purists out there may argue that these are rating numbers and the 1/6 hp motor may not actually use 5 amps, I don't care, because during my 8 minutes of work I found a solution that should pay for itself quickly. Its called a Dock Bubbler (http://www.dockbubbler.com/Dock_Bubbler_DB40.asp) the model for a 30 ft dock uses 47, thats forty seven watts of power, one twelfth of the power of your sump pump or ice eater, saving you mucho dinero per month.
Its similar to the system Jimbob talks about although the sticker price for all the parts is $525.00.

So if your looking to save money in the long run forget about the sump pump, buy a system like the Dock Bubbler, their sales pitch says it works great and if someone took the time to write it down it must be true.

Does anyone use a system like this??

[fatlazyless]

Informative post, links & all, very informative, & so who says that reading these posts is a waste of time, something can be learned right here. Isn't that a surprise that a 1/6hp and a 1/2hp motor can both have the same ratings due to the 1/2hp motor being more efficient. Maybe the wire windings in the armiature are made out of sterling silver as opposed to alumianum. For $525., hopefully, it needs to be very quiet. Some of the water ciculators put out a lot of noise, moving water, constantly, for about 3 1/2 months, so it should be quiet. Quiet enough, not to disturb the local wildlife & winter solitude, lest it start an epiademic of cabin fever!

[jimbob1603]

Hi ITD,

I started off with a system from dockbubbler.com. The linear compressor is excellent (I have their #DB150L), but I did not like the perforated poly-hose they supplied; the slits were too small; preventing proper air flow. I chucked theirs and made my own from PVC pipe (it is cheaper and performs better).

My linear compressor emits a slight hum which is inaudible @ 20 ft. An underwater circulator probably makes no noticable noise (unless you're a fish).

The whole 'dock de-icing thing' relies on two premises: moving water can't freeze; and, the lake water below the ice is warmer than the ice up above (lake ice is typically formed from the top down). Keeping these two postulates in mind: while you don't want to create waves, you do want to keep the water circulating. If you can't see any small surface currents resulting from your circulator or bubbler, its not properly installed.

I would not put too much faith in 'rated' power consumptiom. The stated numbers usually include the starting load and are high; probably to cover the manufacturer's butts from a legal point of view. Its been my experience that if a tag says a motor consumes X amps or watts, you can expect reality to be about 1/2 of X.

Its also wise to understand the differences of the many different types of air compressors available to the American consumer: screw, reciprocating, linear, oiless, regenerative blower etc.; and their respective pros & cons. I believe that only a linear compressor is practically suited for dock de-icing purposes because it has low power consumption, its quiet, and it is designed for 24 x 7 x 52 use.

There is one significant caution with dock bubblers. If you have an extended power outage, water may enter the air line and freeze; preventing any future 'bubble action' until spring thaw. However, prudent installation and a pneumatic check valve will virtually eliminate this risk.

I'll be going up to the lake in a few weeks, just to check things out. I'll bring an amp-probe and get the low down on power consumption of my linear compressor. I beleive that it was listed at 125 watts, but I can't be sure.

With a little research, I found out that www.dockbubbler.com is actually a retail front-end for a manufacturing company called LMI (http://www.lmimg.com/silent_air_pumps.asp). And LMI is an OEM supplier of linear compressors for Gast. I trust anything Gast sells.

j

[ApS]

I gather that a linear compressor is the same thing as what we used to call an oilless compressor? (As opposed to a reciprocating compressor).

I've seen a pair of concrete-filled steel pilings pushed sideways (to shore), but never towards shore.

Anyone seen the benefits of steel pilings instead of wood pilings in your neighborhood? (With or without "Ice-Eaters").

[jimbob1603]

Hi,
All linear compressors are oil-less. But, I do not believe that all oil-less compressors are linear:

Linear compressor:
low power consumption
low pressure (1 - 10 psi) / high volume output
quiet operation
designed for continuous operation
linear magnet drive
purchased at specialty shops & commercial suppliers

Oil-less compressor:
high power consumption
high pressure (50 - 150 psi) / low volume output
very noisy operation
designed for intermittent operation
motor driven diaphragm
purchased at Home Depot

I don't think the ice has any particular direction it will push/drag the pilings. Its probably mostly influenced by water current and wind direction. The 'thermal expansive properties' of water/ice are tremendous; nothing will stop the ice from compressing/damaging (however minimal) any piling. The thicker the ice, the more potential for damage.

Wood is the cheapest material; then steel; and aluminum being the most expensive. Concrete pilings, without some sort of steel reinforcing, is a bad choice. Concrete has superb compressive strength, but poor tensile and shear strength.

I would never use steel in a marine environment, for obvious reasons; and probably not even in fresh water .... just too much maintenance. I'd use a 6063 alloy aluminum in fresh water (if cost was not an issue ..... a 4x4x3/16 Al tube is 4 times the price of a 4x6 PT timber). All said and done, wood is the preferred material; and wood is probably the most forgiving when it comes to ice damage.
j

[ApS]

Originally Posted by ITD

Ok FLL,

I don't think you're looking at the right specifications. You need to look at the power consumed, not the power produced (HP). I decided to use about 8 minutes of my life to help you a little. I looked up a 1/6 hp sump pump
(http://www.littlegiant.com/framenav-pumps.html ) and found it rated at 5 amps 120 V. Putting on my engineering hat I know that :

P(Watt) = V(volts)*I(current)=120*5= 600 watts. (You pay the electric company for watts used)

I also looked up a 1/2 hp ice eater (http://www.marine-electronics-unlimi...ater+P500.html)

and lo and behold it also was rated at 120V 5 amps which calculates to be 600 watts, more horsepower, same energy usage. The ice eater claims to have an energy efficient motor, while the sump pump is cheap. Now the purists out there may argue that these are rating numbers and the 1/6 hp motor may not actually use 5 amps, I don't care, because during my 8 minutes of work I found a solution that should pay for itself quickly. Its called a Dock Bubbler (http://www.dockbubbler.com/Dock_Bubbler_DB40.asp) the model for a 30 ft dock uses 47, thats forty seven watts of power, one twelfth of the power of your sump pump or ice eater, saving you mucho dinero per month.
Its similar to the system Jimbob talks about although the sticker price for all the parts is $525.00.

So if your looking to save money in the long run forget about the sump pump, buy a system like the Dock Bubbler, their sales pitch says it works great and if someone took the time to write it down it must be true.

Does anyone use a system like this??

Why is it that I hear*** that 240-Volt systems are a more efficient energy system than 120-Volt, given the formula above?
P(Watt) = V(volts) X I(current)=120

***and believe, having seen a 120V dryer at Winnipesaukee -- presently used to keep bird seed from the occasional chipmunk home-invasion.

[jimbob1603]

Mr Second,

Single phase 240v appliances are no more energy efficient than their 120v counterparts; despite the chipmunks. But, it is cheaper to build a 240v appliance than a 120v appliance; especially those which consume a lot of power (dryers, ranges, motors, etc.).

Your 120v dryer costs no more to run than its 240v cousin; they both use the same number of watt-hours to dry a given load of wet laundry. Ohms law will show that a watt is a watt, no matter how you slice it up. Remember, if you double the voltage, you are halfing the current.

However, lest-we-forget pi, a 3-phase motor is much more energy efficient; and offers substantially more starting torque. Unfortunately, unlike commercial facilities & industry, our homes are not wired for 3-phase power.

You are correct in thinking that your electric meter displays the sum power of two 120v lines, 180 degress out of phase with each other. Your electric company is charging you by the watthour, which is a product of current x voltage. Don't ask ...... you don't want to get me going.

j

[ITD]

Yeah, a watt is a watt, a 240v dryer will probably have a larger (more heat)heater element than the 120v dryer resulting in quicker drying but the amount of energy needed to dry the load is the same. There may be a small gain in efficiency due to the dryer motor not having to run as long.

Interestingly power transmission lines are always high voltage. It is more efficient to transmit power because the current through the wire is less at higher voltage for a given load. Less current means that smaller diameter wires can be used, one of the benefits. Automobiles will eventually use 42volt systems instead of 12 volts. One of the reasons for this is that newer technologies, especially things like camless valves require large amounts of electric energy. The size of the wires required to power these systems was getting too large at 12 volts.

[jimbob1603]

Yo,
I got a measurement of power consumption of my linear compressor on Sunday. 375 watts ..... which I do not believe. Unfortunately, the inductive amp-probe I used must be way out of wack. I truly believe that this machine is pulling about 110 watts.
375 watts is three times what the compressor is rated; and I'd be going broke paying the electric bill (relatively speaking).

If anyone is truly interested, I'll try to scrape up an inline ammeter and find the real power consumption of this beast.
J

[ApS]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

I am getting tired of writing
out these large checks every month to the Electric Coop, to keep my 1/2hp ice eater running and keep the dock fom freezing solid...>>Snip<<

It seems to me that the real question is how to save money on our docks against the ice.

I have three docks near me with steel pilings. Unfortunately, I can't say whether or not they are equipped with "Ice-Eaters" as well. One got knocked sideways (but not inwards!) by the ice. The others haven't moved.

In the long run, isn't it better to spend the money up front for passive remedies (like raising for light docks or maybe steel pilings/aluminum facings to protect wood piling docks) than to pay out every year for energy costs? (Energy costs don't go down).

BTW, That 375 wattage doesn't seem outrageous to me. My in-line is pretty powerful. (You can't talk near it). But it depends on the size of your unit.

Your compressor runs continuously?

[ITD]

If by steel piling you mean a pipe dock, then the ice will definitely move it. Happened to me last year, I messed with the circulator when I shouldn’t have. The ice lifted and moved the dock actually bending one of the pipes. Much easier just to pay for the electricity than to straighten out the dock or take it out of the water.

[jimbob1603]

Hey Ho,
If I was going to install a new dock, I'd make it so I could raise it. An ounce (or dollar) of prevention is well worth the investment here.

375 watts is way off. My electric bill would be triple what it is if the machine drew that much. The machine makes very little noise; just a slight hum which is completely inaudible at 20 ft. I'm very happy with the compressor. Its my amp-probe that is a piece of junk.

My linear compressor (mfg. by LMI) is on an external thermostat. It turns on at 35 and off at 45. Sometimes, it runs for weeks at a time; depending on the outside air temperature.
J

[fatlazyless]

As a matter of fact, I do indeed remove my dock and have no need for a water circulator. An old neighbor, did in fact use a 1/6hp $65.00 sump pump, amd it lasted for 1 1/2 winters. I thought I'd feign ignorance just to get the topic of 1/6 hp sump pumps going, as I think they are a good alternative to the standard water circulaters when the water is shallow, say 4' or less...

[fatlazyless]

Um, I even have a photo somewhere of myself removing the dock & boat lift, from last November.

Anyway, while the expense of running a 1/6hp sump pump has been shown to be the same as a 1/2hp or 3/4hp water circulator due to its' high effienciency motor. For water depths of three to five feet, the 1/6hp sump pump can be a good choice for a couple reasons. It is much less expensive; $65. vs $500.(?) to purchase. A much smaller opening will be created in the ice. Some ice circulators in shallow water can keep very large areas, like 100'plus, ice free. It is quieter as there is less water movement on the surface.

And, lastly, it can also be used as a sump pump in the summertime, to pump out a swamped boat due to an overnight drain plug malfunction.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Um, I even have a photo somewhere of myself removing the dock & boat lift, from last November.

Anyway, while the expense of running a 1/6hp sump pump has been shown to be the same as a 1/2hp or 3/4hp water circulator due to its' high effienciency motor. For water depths of three to five feet, the 1/6hp sump pump can be a good choice for a couple reasons. It is much less expensive; $65. vs $500.(?) to purchase. A much smaller opening will be created in the ice. Some ice circulators in shallow water can keep very large areas, like 100'plus, ice free. It is quieter as there is less water movement on the surface.

And, lastly, it can also be used as a sump pump in the summertime, to pump out a swamped boat due to an overnight drain plug malfunction.

I think I'll stay with the Winnipesaukee Aquatherm guy. Since he checks the unit periodically, it's sort of like having a "Camp Patrol" too.

I'm curious how the sump pump is placed, though. Is it "upright" and is it hanging by a rope(s), what kind of rope, and how high off the bottom is it? (About how far below the surface?)

BTW: The references to "successful" steel pilings were round steel pilings 3"ø in six feet of water, and paired 10-inch "I" beams, welded together in an inverted "V" -- in seven feet of water.

[fatlazyless]

Maybe, hang it from two lines suspended from two dock legs, or a dock leg & a piling. The sump pump draws water in thru a mesh opening on its' bottom and shoots it directly upward thru a garden hose threaded pipe fitting. Putting a 3/4" X 6" plastic pipe onto the fitting will concentrate the water power.

It's a 'hoped for' minimalist approach and works in shallow water of 3 - 5' without all the noise and huge area of open water. Why keep over 100' of shoreline ice-free when all you need is to protect the immediate dock? Worst case, even if one morning the dock area is newly frozen over, it's not so bad. A sledge hammer or better, a five foot railroad crowbar, can smash through 4" of ice with no problem, and it would have to be extremely cold to make 4" of ice in one night.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

An old neighbor, did in fact use a 1/6hp $65.00 sump pump, amd it lasted for 1 1/2 winters.

I don't know Less 1 1/2 winters isn't very long, especially the 1/2 part which means unless the dock is checked regularly it could be damaged. Sounds penny-wise pound foolish, my circulator has been around at least 6 years that I know of and it still works. Paying someone to repair a dock would quickly wipe out any savings. My circulator makes very little noise when standing on the dock. Now I can't speak for the fish that live nearby....

[Misty Blue]

LES:

We greatly decreased our power consumption for the Aquatherm by installing a timer in line withe the power supply.

'Went to Aubuchons and bought a electric hot water heater timer (you know the on peak off peak thing) for about $30 and set it up for three two hour shots a day. All off peak. It works great and by controling the amount of time used we control the open space by the dock and beach. My Arctic cat does not float!

Good luck!

Misty Blue

PS I work at a wood fired power plant. Want a visit?

[jimbob1603]

To the energy minded:
A thermostat, in series with the timer, is even better. My bubbler turns on at 35, and off at 45. Not what I would personally choose for setpoints; but it came factory set. Remember, ice is created from the top down; so no need to run it when the air temperature is over 32. I'm not offered an 'off peak' discount in Alton Bay.

Seriously, a tour of a power plant? Give me a shout at jimbob1603@hotmail.com. I'm an engineer and groove on things like that. I avail myself to all factory, process, and manufacturing tours. Nothing like the fine hum of a finely balanced 3000hp motor, the excitement/danger of high pressure steam, or the smell of tetrahydrofuran in the morning. Is this your home power plant?, or is this powering a small town somewhere up-state? or maybe you're at a pulp mill? Is the wood basically ground up into ultra-fine sawdust before being injected into the boiler? Who made the turbine? Any co-generation going on? How many tubes in the boiler? 1 or 3 phase? Whats the voltage at the generator? (13k?, 13M?) Natural gas assist? Does it run 24 x 7? Does the state require a fireman? Is the boiler ASME approved? How do you sync it with the power grid? 50 or 60 hertz? (just kidding on that one!) Too cool!
Jim

[ApS]

This summer, the 1/6 HP sump-pump got a good workout here.

When I retrieved it for the season and shook it, though, there's a "sloshing" sound coming from it inside where the motor should be. The sloshing wasn't there before this season, and the only possible drainplug (a soft rubber plug) has a notice above it stating "Do not remove this plug". It works fine otherwise.

If it's water inside -- and to keep it from freezing and possibly breaking the housing -- I'm going to toss it into six feet of lake water and retrieve it next April.

Any idea if this "sloshing" is normal? Did the factory put anti-freeze inside?

[T.H.E. Binz]

How about no oil and no electricity? Get a crank up dock.

[jrc]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Any idea if this "sloshing" is normal? Did the factory put anti-freeze inside?

When my 15 year old pump finally let go, it failed by the bottom falling off. It was filled with a light mineral oil which made a big stinky mess of the hot tub I was draining. There had to be at least a pint in there and it was about the weight of kerosene. The bottom fell off because the screws had completely rusted away.

So your sloshing might be oil, maybe you lost a little and the rest is moving around.

[ApS]

Thanks, I think you've nailed it...(and I'd kinda despaired of an explanation these past several days).

In your case, with the mineral oil leaking out, didn't the pump then pose an electric-shock hazard?

[jrc]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

In your case, with the mineral oil leaking out, didn't the pump then pose an electric-shock hazard?

I'm sure it did. I had it plugged into a GFI and the GFI tripped instantly. It now rests in a landfill somewhere. It was really to worn out to consider any repair.