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Old 07-05-2017, 02:10 PM   #1
DanteMartiniello
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Default Wake-setter boats

The past few years in Blackie Cove I've seen an uproar in wake-setter boats. These types of boats are a little more expensive for their size. They are made to make high waves for the Skiers, and Wake boarders.

These boats are causing erosion to our shores, and over the past 4th or July week, we needed to fix our dock several times. These boats shouldn't be used for leisure in this Cove.

The Cove is good for skiing, but it is causing erosion and fraying the ropes that connect the boats to the dock.

Having other boats like Four Winds, Glastrons, Crownlines, and Pontoons are good for the use of Skiing, and tubing, etc, would be better for this Cove.

Blackie Cove is very thin and the Wakesetter waves have no time to settle down before hitting the shores. Coves that are probably having the same problem are Salmon Meadow, and Center Harbor. Other places include thin Channels.

If you didn't know what a wake-setter is, here is a picture


If anyone else is having the same issue as me, post your issue.
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Old 07-05-2017, 09:32 PM   #2
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Welcome to the forums Dante....

I have read all of your posts from today (when you joined the forums).

I look forward to finally reading a POSITIVE post from you though..
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Old 07-05-2017, 09:51 PM   #3
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You are not the only one experiencing problems. We also have had broken mooring whips and dock lines snapped. And erosion is a real problem. We just learn to live with it over the 15 +/- weekends and pay to fix things as they break. Just part of the deal, as they have the right to use the lake like all of us. But since they like all the waves, wonder why they cannot do this in other areas of more open water.
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Old 07-06-2017, 12:14 AM   #4
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Sorry, I have also read Dante's posts and find them to be positive. Every boat may have its place but a boat that mainly is made to create a big wake may not be welcomed
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Old 07-06-2017, 10:43 AM   #5
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Default Where does it end?

First, we had to deal with the noisy "drag boats". Outlawed. Remember years ago when "we" started petitioning to stop jet skis in many coves? Then jet skis got bigger and were boats and "we" passed NWZ's for coves, then large areas like Meredith Bay. Then we passed whole lake speed limits and noise restrictions. And look at the progression of NRZ and all the restrictions on anchoring that don't exist elsewhere.
Isn't it ironic that NH, Winni in particular, the LFOD state, has more rules than anybody except maybe Lake George?

In "your" cove is it neighbors who are boarding? Or boaters from elsewhere?
If you and maybe a couple of friends get in your canoes and go out in the cove and drop a fish line, you just created a 300' diameter NWZ. If it's outside boaters, they'll find another spot to make waves. If it's your neighbors, maybe you'll all get together and find a way to share the cove and minimize erosion. But please, no more new laws.
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Old 07-06-2017, 12:31 PM   #6
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Default A real problem

Thanks for bringing up this important issue, Dante. It's a problem even in larger bays. The erosion issue is a serious risk--more erosion means more phosphorous in the water, which leads to more plant growth, which leads to less lake for all.

Wake-setters, like extra load and extra fast boats, should be regulated. Though none of us enjoy being regulated, it's not right to let a small number of extreme boats cause disproportionate disruption.
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Old 07-06-2017, 12:42 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Descant View Post
First, we had to deal with the noisy "drag boats". Outlawed. Remember years ago when "we" started petitioning to stop jet skis in many coves? Then jet skis got bigger and were boats and "we" passed NWZ's for coves, then large areas like Meredith Bay. Then we passed whole lake speed limits and noise restrictions. And look at the progression of NRZ and all the restrictions on anchoring that don't exist elsewhere.
Isn't it ironic that NH, Winni in particular, the LFOD state, has more rules than anybody except maybe Lake George?

In "your" cove is it neighbors who are boarding? Or boaters from elsewhere?
If you and maybe a couple of friends get in your canoes and go out in the cove and drop a fish line, you just created a 300' diameter NWZ. If it's outside boaters, they'll find another spot to make waves. If it's your neighbors, maybe you'll all get together and find a way to share the cove and minimize erosion. But please, no more new laws.
To my knowledge, the wave-setters are exclusively from OUTSIDE the cove. We see them all coming in. None are owned by people in the cove. And where is DES that regulates everything....but they do nothing about shoreline erosion from these boats?? Where is "Shore things" when she is needed ????
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Old 07-06-2017, 12:49 PM   #8
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Erosion to man made docks needs to stop! Maybe ice out should also be banned.


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Old 07-06-2017, 01:04 PM   #9
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And where is DES that regulates everything....but they do nothing about shoreline erosion from these boats??
Build a seawall and be done with it if your that concerned !


http://www.wikihow.com/Build-a-Seawall

https://www.redi-rock.com/how-to-sto...ing-walls.html

http://www.dreamscapeslincoln.com/ou...taining-walls/



the end......

.
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Old 07-06-2017, 01:28 PM   #10
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But it's cheaper to complain and have everyone else pay!
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Old 07-06-2017, 02:35 PM   #11
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SAVE THE LAKE, except, you know, when I want to do stuff in it.


I agree Dante, the lake has been very high this year due to the rain, a nice drought through September would suit me fine.
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Old 07-06-2017, 03:10 PM   #12
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This crowd kills me ---

The Lake is too high? ........ check again, it's at slightly BELOW normal fill level.

Just what we need another drought !

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Old 07-06-2017, 03:17 PM   #13
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Almost 6 inches higher than the norm for this time of year, DRAIN THAT LAKE!
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Old 07-06-2017, 04:50 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
Thanks for bringing up this important issue, Dante. It's a problem even in larger bays. The erosion issue is a serious risk--more erosion means more phosphorous in the water, which leads to more plant growth, which leads to less lake for all.

Wake-setters, like extra load and extra fast boats, should be regulated. Though none of us enjoy being regulated, it's not right to let a small number of extreme boats cause disproportionate disruption.
I say regulate the kayaks and stand-up-paddleboards. (just my opinion, though)
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Old 07-10-2017, 05:13 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by DanteMartiniello View Post
The past few years in Blackie Cove I've seen an uproar in wake-setter boats. These types of boats are a little more expensive for their size. They are made to make high waves for the Skiers, and Wake boarders.

These boats are causing erosion to our shores, and over the past 4th or July week, we needed to fix our dock several times. These boats shouldn't be used for leisure in this Cove.

The Cove is good for skiing, but it is causing erosion and fraying the ropes that connect the boats to the dock.

Having other boats like Four Winds, Glastrons, Crownlines, and Pontoons are good for the use of Skiing, and tubing, etc, would be better for this Cove.

Blackie Cove is very thin and the Wakesetter waves have no time to settle down before hitting the shores. Coves that are probably having the same problem are Salmon Meadow, and Center Harbor. Other places include thin Channels.

If you didn't know what a wake-setter is, here is a picture


If anyone else is having the same issue as me, post your issue.
THE Wake setters boats you call is ever boat on the lake.WAVES travel miles
you look at your boat in the cove ,
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Old 07-12-2017, 08:23 PM   #16
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Smile Straight Lines Make for a Happy Cove...

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Build a seawall and be done with it if your that concerned ! the end.......
Seawalls lead to erosion at the neighboring lots.

In my locale, I've seen only one seawall. It's possible that they're not permitted. Lakes with many seawalls cause even greater wake damage—plus wakes tend to be returned even larger.

Lake of the Ozarks (LOTO) had a 26' cruiser sunk by a following wake, drowning a woman passenger. LOTO allows seawalls.

Today, I watched a wake-setter boat. Its wake settled down to nothing while the boat went in a straight line. A subsequent curve in the line raised a large and curling wake that did make its way to crash ashore.

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Old 07-13-2017, 09:59 AM   #17
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Oh boy, thats quite a jump. The suggestion in your post is that the woman died because of seawalls. Wow
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Old 07-13-2017, 10:15 AM   #18
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Surprised nobody has set this straight.

These are wakeboard/wakesurf boats, not wake-setter boats. Wake-setter is a model/series made by Malibu.
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Old 07-13-2017, 11:43 AM   #19
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Default I will admit

For the last decade, we rented a house every summer in Blackey Cove. The house sold last year, we will miss it dearly, it's a wonderful location on the lake and I deeply envy each of you that have a home there.

In the past, the cove was/is used heavily for wakeboarding and skiing, even tubing and some of those waves were definitely impressive on their own. I stopped tubing in there myself, and try to make sure when we board I stay as much to the middle as I can (hard to do if more than one person is trying to used ).

However, the last 2 years we were there, I do admit, the boats set up for wakesurfing (and I'm certain one of those boats is new, and lives in the cove) were doing a NUMBER on the boat and the dock I used. Had to adjust the dock a few times during my rental. Those setups do throw off an impressive wake, similar to some of the bigger cruisers at maximum plowing speed.

If I lived in there, I'd definitely be looking at what I could do to shore up my dock, get my boat on a lift or at least some whips to protect it. I'm not sure what else you can do. While there are a fair share of 150' violations (it's a small cove...), the actual wake and how they are using the boat is not illegal.


Just a sign of the times, maybe slolam skiing will become popular again and the minimal wake boats will make a resurgence.
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Old 07-14-2017, 08:49 AM   #20
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Default Really?

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.........—plus wakes tend to be returned even larger.

.
This would seem to ignore the laws of physics. Can you explain or provide data? I have searched and found nothing.
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Old 07-14-2017, 09:52 AM   #21
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This would seem to ignore the laws of physics. Can you explain or provide data? I have searched and found nothing.
You piqued my curiosity--reflected waves certainly certainly seem to make things worse for boats on the lake on a busy weekend. But yeah, we all know a wall can't magnify an individual wake. Here's a great explanation from ClimatetechWiki that bridges the gap:

Smooth, vertical seawalls are the least effective at dissipating wave energy; instead, the structures reflect wave energy seawards. Reflection creates turbulence, capable of suspending sediments (Bush et al., 2004), thus making them more susceptible to erosion. In a worst-case scenario, reflected energy can interact with incoming waves to set up a standing wave which causes intense scouring of the shoreline (French, 2001).

It's those damn "standing waves"!

Here's the link with pluses and minuses of seawalls and full references:

http://www.climatetechwiki.org/content/seawalls
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Old 07-17-2017, 03:52 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanteMartiniello
If anyone else is having the same issue as me, post your issue.
I hear you Dante- I have a similar complaint.

The past few years at the Village Kitchen I've seen [a loud and impassioned noise or disturbance] in Tag Heuer watches. These types of watches are a little more expensive for their size. They are made to tell accurate time for the for humans, and horses.

These watches are causing blinding glares from across the room, and over the past 4th or July week, we needed to put my sunglasses on several times. These watches shouldn't be used for telling time in this restaurant.

The restaurant is good for eating, but it(?) is destroying my vision and forcing me to shift my seating position.

Having other watches like Casioo [sic], Swatch, Fossil, and the really functional ones with calculators attached are good for the use of accessorizing, and looking good [and] would be better for this restaurant.

The VK is very thin and the Tag Heuer glare have no end before hitting me in the eyes. Restaurants that are probably having the same problem are Lavinia's, and Pat's Pizza. Other places include tables and chairs.

If you didn't know what a Tag Heuer is, here is a picture
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Old 07-17-2017, 07:10 PM   #23
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Question Wakes

Wakes - I distinctly recall that you're responsible for your wake and any damage done. Has anyone ever been sited for their wake? Some of the wakes I have seen are absolutely crazy big. Thankfully, being on The Broads we have a very rocky shore and has required us to be set up for bad weather/waves.
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Old 07-18-2017, 03:22 AM   #24
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Arrow Seawalls...Not The Answer...

Wakesetters, Jet-Skis, and waterskiers have found that navigation controls to delineate only one-way travel works to keep wakes under control on Midwestern lakes.

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This would seem to ignore the laws of physics. Can you explain or provide data? I have searched and found nothing.
Search some more.

From earlier observations here:
https://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums...ad.php?t=10576

Most of the data deals with theory and the mathematics to support it: little can be done from real-life scenarios. A lake's wave and wake patterns are too "chaotic" for such studies.

A single wake won't be returned larger from a seawall; however, multiple wakes, combined with the right wind conditions have produced some notable rogue waves. On LOTO, reports have testimony of 10 foot waves. (As does the book, "Three Centuries on Lake Winnipesaukee"). I have seen brief peaks of similar-sized wakes appearing between large speeding cruisers. You may recall my post from years ago, of having been ejected from my boat in that very circumstance.

Take a catamaran sailboat and position yourself off a Lake Winnipesaukee seawall. You'll find yourself caught up in that "standing wave" condition--which is difficult for a sailboat to break out of.

Winnipesaukee has an irregular shoreline: now consider the effect of the even more irregular shoreline at The Lake of The Ozarks (LOTO).

While the "data" is primarily anecdotal, lake veterans of 50 years have prepared YouTube videos showing how LOTO's natural cliffs and seawalls have conspired to make the lake waters even rougher. One video shows a floating gas dock--with five pumps--being tossed around!

BTW: That LOTO cruiser fatality was traced to a cruiser already having an electrical bailer problem when it was swamped from behind.
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Old 07-18-2017, 09:18 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by paintitredinHC View Post
I hear you Dante- I have a similar complaint.

The past few years at the Village Kitchen I've seen [a loud and impassioned noise or disturbance] in Tag Heuer watches. These types of watches are a little more expensive for their size. They are made to tell accurate time for the for humans, and horses.

These watches are causing blinding glares from across the room, and over the past 4th or July week, we needed to put my sunglasses on several times. These watches shouldn't be used for telling time in this restaurant.

The restaurant is good for eating, but it(?) is destroying my vision and forcing me to shift my seating position.

Having other watches like Casioo [sic], Swatch, Fossil, and the really functional ones with calculators attached are good for the use of accessorizing, and looking good [and] would be better for this restaurant.

The VK is very thin and the Tag Heuer glare have no end before hitting me in the eyes. Restaurants that are probably having the same problem are Lavinia's, and Pat's Pizza. Other places include tables and chairs.

If you didn't know what a Tag Heuer is, here is a picture
Wait...what?
What does a watch have to do with wakesetter boats?
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Old 07-18-2017, 09:28 AM   #26
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Wait...what?
What does a watch have to do with wakesetter boats?
Head scratcher for me too Chip.
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Old 07-18-2017, 10:29 AM   #27
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Wait...what?
What does a watch have to do with wakesetter boats?
Oh boy...

If you take Dante's original post and replace Wakesetter with a watch brand, it illustrates the absurdity of the argument.

My point is, it's inappropriate to demand regulation on something that can be addressed through a combination of education and preventative measures. As I've said before on here, there is a proper (and considerate) way to tow somebody behind a boat. If done correctly and in the appropriate venue for a particular sport, the resulting wake should not be a problem.

- Drive in straight lines
- Coordinate your line with other riders/skiers in the same cove/bay
- No power turns
- Wakesurf/Tube in larger bays (i.e. not Blackies)
- Stay 150' from shore (ample space for wake to dissipate)

Understand that wakeboarder's and water skiers both want calm water which is why they seek out cove's that are protected from wind. Skiers do not want a large wake. In fact, they want the flattest wake possible. Wakeboarder's use the larger wake behind a ballast filled boat to generate pop for aerial tricks, however the water still needs to be calm to hold a consistent board edge towards the wake.

To be fair, not everyone that own's a Malibu Wakesetter is an upstanding citizen who considers the impact of their actions. In fact, an argument can be made that some in that demographic can be quite inconsiderate. But, that doesn't mean all wakeboard boats should be outlawed from specific area's of the lake. If everyone is informed of proper protocol, it won't be an issue.

Also consider that people that live in Blackies may have purchased their homes for the implicit reason that it is great for skiing/wakeboarding. I know that some have mentioned in this thread that it was an outside boat that caused this issue. Tell me how would you plan to enforce a rule that disallows outside wakeboard boats from using this cove (or other similar coves for that matter) but not impede the rights of wakeboarding homeowners in said cove?

I shouldn't even be on here probably wasting my time typing this, but somebody has to provide context. The crusade continues.

Last edited by paintitredinHC; 07-18-2017 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 07-18-2017, 12:08 PM   #28
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Oh boy...

If you take Dante's original post and replace Wakesetter with a watch brand, it illustrates the absurdity of the argument.

My point is, it's inappropriate to demand regulation on something that can be addressed through a combination of education and preventative measures. As I've said before on here, there is a proper (and considerate) way to tow somebody behind a boat. If done correctly and in the appropriate venue for a particular sport, the resulting wake should not be a problem.

- Drive in straight lines
- Coordinate your line with other riders/skiers in the same cove/bay
- No power turns
- Wakesurf/Tube in larger bays (i.e. not Blackies)
- Stay 150' from shore (ample space for wake to dissipate)

Understand that wakeboarder's and water skiers both want calm water which is why they seek out cove's that are protected from wind. Skiers do not want a large wake. In fact, they want the flattest wake possible. Wakeboarder's use the larger wake behind a ballast filled boat to generate pop for aerial tricks, however the water still needs to be calm to hold a consistent board edge towards the wake.

To be fair, not everyone that own's a Malibu Wakesetter is an upstanding citizen who considers the impact of their actions. In fact, an argument can be made that some in that demographic can be quite inconsiderate. But, that doesn't mean all wakeboard boats should be outlawed from specific area's of the lake. If everyone is informed of proper protocol, it won't be an issue.

Also consider that people that live in Blackies may have purchased their homes for the implicit reason that it is great for skiing/wakeboarding. I know that some have mentioned in this thread that it was an outside boat that caused this issue. Tell me how would you plan to enforce a rule that disallows outside wakeboard boats from using this cove (or other similar coves for that matter) but not impede the rights of wakeboarding homeowners in said cove?

I shouldn't even be on here probably wasting my time typing this, but somebody has to provide context. The crusade continues.
You're right--many of these boats are powered by people who are not "upstanding citizens". So please don't try to make the case that all we need to do is "inform" them.

This forum is full of threads on boat owners who remain grossly and dangerously uninformed of even the most basic safety issues, never mind detailed instructions of how to pilot a specialized craft.
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Old 07-18-2017, 01:13 PM   #29
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So please don't try to make the case that all we need to do is "inform" them.

This forum is full of threads on boat owners who remain grossly and dangerously uninformed of even the most basic safety issues, never mind detailed instructions of how to pilot a specialized craft.
So by this logic, we should just create laws to help people who simply cannot help themselves. How depressing. Wouldn't it make more sense to direct those efforts and resources towards providing education and information rather than bury our head in the sand on every nuanced issue?

That is what is so valuable about this forum as a resource. It creates a platform to distribute awareness and information. Unfortunately, it is limited in that it probably doesn't reach the audience that needs it the most. That's where you fine folks come in. Now that you know, you can pass this information along.
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Old 07-18-2017, 01:57 PM   #30
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Old 07-18-2017, 04:12 PM   #31
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So by this logic, we should just create laws to help people who simply cannot help themselves. How depressing. Wouldn't it make more sense to direct those efforts and resources towards providing education and information rather than bury our head in the sand on every nuanced issue?
I think you misunderstand me, or at least misunderstand my definition of nuanced.

There are plenty of nuanced issues discussed thoroughly on this board, such as boat operator licensing requirements, horsepower on the lake, Marine Patrol's role, etc.

I don't find any nuance in the wakeboard discussion--they are a specialty craft designed for the expressed purpose of producing an effect which we all understand is hard on other boaters, docks, and the lake shore.
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Old 07-18-2017, 04:39 PM   #32
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Head scratcher for me too Chip.
I think it was an attempt at wittiness?

Strawman.
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Old 07-18-2017, 04:48 PM   #33
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So by this logic, we should just create laws to help people who simply cannot help themselves. How depressing. Wouldn't it make more sense to direct those efforts and resources towards providing education and information rather than bury our head in the sand on every nuanced issue?
This is where MP is stopping people and either educating (or issuing a verbal/written warning) and keeping records.

Quote:
That is what is so valuable about this forum as a resource. It creates a platform to distribute awareness and information. Unfortunately, it is limited in that it probably doesn't reach the audience that needs it the most. That's where you fine folks come in. Now that you know, you can pass this information along.

As can you.
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Old 07-18-2017, 05:09 PM   #34
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Pete - Can I call you Pete?

I understood you perfectly. However, perhaps you misunderstood me. Damaging wakes produced by wakeboard boats can be mitigated through proper technique and contentious operators. Given those factors, I do believe that is the definition of nuanced.

I absolutely agree with what I think you were getting at in your original reply. Regardless of education and information, there will always be inconsiderate people. But do you suggest we write laws to address a select few inconsiderate people at the expense of the majority?

But then you contradict your 'So please don't request' by stating, "This forum is full of threads on boat owners who remain grossly and dangerously uninformed of even the most basic safety issues"... If that is the case, then why shouldn't we try to pass along information?




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Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
I think you misunderstand me, or at least misunderstand my definition of nuanced.

There are plenty of nuanced issues discussed thoroughly on this board, such as boat operator licensing requirements, horsepower on the lake, Marine Patrol's role, etc.

I don't find any nuance in the wakeboard discussion--they are a specialty craft designed for the expressed purpose of producing an effect which we all understand is hard on other boaters, docks, and the lake shore.
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Old 07-18-2017, 05:11 PM   #35
paintitredinHC
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Originally Posted by Outdoorsman View Post
This is where MP is stopping people and either educating (or issuing a verbal/written warning) and keeping records.
I have no problem with an MP officer stopping a person that are not following the recommended protocols I outlined above. In fact, I support it.

[QUOTE[/B]
As can you.[/QUOTE]

That is literally what I am doing.
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Old 07-18-2017, 09:07 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by paintitredinHC View Post

But then you contradict your 'So please don't request' by stating, "This forum is full of threads on boat owners who remain grossly and dangerously uninformed of even the most basic safety issues"... If that is the case, then why shouldn't we try to pass along information?
In general, that's a fair point. Sharing information on safe and responsible operation is an important part of this forum.

My concern is when advice on responsible operation segues into an argument that these boats can be operated broadly without significant damage to others. You've done that very artfully here, but you've neglected the underlying truth that big wakes are bad for the lake.
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