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Old 08-05-2010, 10:11 PM   #1
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Unhappy Fully Moderated Forums comes to Winnipesaukee.com

Sorry I have to take a moment to express my disappointment at this unfortunate turn of events.

Speaking as someone who does not know anyone on this site beyond our exchanges online (but for one non-active member) I consider myself a nonpartisan entity and as such let me be one of the first to say what a huge step backwards to have to go to a fully moderated forum.

Censorship at that level is so un-American that it seems almost unthinkable to me that we could even have such a thing.

As I am not one of the more active posters on this site and dont have a many year tenure here, I cannot speak to all issues that have occurred, but I can say for the posts that I do see, I cannot grasp how it could have come to this,,,

I am left almost speechless.

Almost,,, as I see open and reasonable exchanges about all issues of concern and other items of common interests as a cornerstone of our society, and to see it eradicated in one fell-swoop over banter is like cutting off someone’s tongue for uttering forbidden words or poking out their eyes for looking at something you don’t want them to see.

Its totalitarianism of the worst kind that punishes all when only a very few have misbehaved,,,

Very disappointing to say the very least,,,

VERY DISAPPOINTING!
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Old 08-05-2010, 10:35 PM   #2
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Huh? What are you talking about?

Have you ever hosted a forum? How about more than one?

Well, I have and do... No joke.

Lemme tell you... it's no picnic. It's a lot of work and when some (or even just one) member gets their tails in a knot about something, it's a LOT more work.

And please, histrionics aside, where in the First Amendment are you promised to have a non-fully moderated forum? Do you know who else could be liable if someone is accused of slander... yup. The mod.

Don does what he does at no charge to us... If that's the rule I have to follow to play here, I'll do it.

P.S.
As best I can tell the boating section is fully moderated... some kids on this playground just need a little more supervision, I guess... If my can was on the line the way Don's is here on winni.com, I'd probably do the same...
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Old 08-05-2010, 11:25 PM   #3
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Thumbs down Sadder still,,,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Argie's Wife View Post
Huh? What are you talking about?

Have you ever hosted a forum? How about more than one?

Well, I have and do... No joke.

Lemme tell you... it's no picnic. It's a lot of work and when some (or even just one) member gets their tails in a knot about something, it's a LOT more work.

And please, histrionics aside, where in the First Amendment are you promised to have a non-fully moderated forum? Do you know who else could be liable if someone is accused of slander... yup. The mod.

Don does what he does at no charge to us... If that's the rule I have to follow to play here, I'll do it.

P.S.
As best I can tell the boating section is fully moderated... some kids on this playground just need a little more supervision, I guess... If my can was on the line the way Don's is here on winni.com, I'd probably do the same...
I make no apologies for my opinion PERIOD!

And baiting me with “histrionics” and “First Amendment” rhetoric is not conducive to a meaningful exchange about why I feel the way I do about this change when I have said nothing about the First Amendment.

I said that I consider censorship of this nature to be un-American and totalitarianism, this is because I don’t like people telling me what I can say when I have not said anything inappropriate, it has nothing to do with paper laws.

I opened my post and ended it with the terms disappointment/disappointing and that’s the way I feel. If that makes you feel uncomfortable or guilty maybe you might stop to think about what you are bothered by in my post, if its truly because you feel that its inappropriate, then it would make sense that you support the concept of a fully moderated forum, you don’t want anyone posting something you are in disagreement with or that makes you feel bad, and if that’s you opinion so be it, I’m not here to convince you about anything, I’m just posting my opinion. But when we reach a point when I cannot post my opinions without someone scrutinizing every word, it’s a very sad day for us all,,,,

Again, I make no apologies for my opinion, and further, I have no concern what so ever that your posts need to be moderated, if I don’t like them, I don’t have to read them. You can rest assured that I don’t like a lot of posts, and in most cases, I just ignore them, and let me say for the record that I have NEVER contacted a site owner or moderator about a post, NEVER had a reason to do so,,, EVER!

Nuff said by me,,, someone else can have the floor, I have said my piece.
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Old 08-05-2010, 11:30 PM   #4
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Although I am a total supporter of being able to express the right of free speech, my opinion is the recent posts in the "Boating Threads" had gotten completely out-of-control, on both sides.

Although I very strongly support one side of the ( xx ) argument, I stopped posting in this area more than a week ago because I saw no positive reason to do so. It became a contest of cr_p slinging, at best.

I completely support the decision of our web master Don in every action he has taken to regain civil discussions on this great forum. I also applaud Skip for his outstanding post that got me 'back-on-the-ground' regarding my postings to this web site. We need to enjoy life on the lake and fight these battles elsewhere.

We also need to enjoy this great web site and support whatever is in the best interest of those that use this resource. I am trying to be as sincere and as neutral as possible in this post with my comments.

Thanks to Don for all he has done and all he continues to do to support Lake Winnipesaukee and its surrounding areas.

R2B
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Old 08-05-2010, 11:49 PM   #5
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I never said your post was inappropriate or anything of the sort. I never asked you for an apology. And your post hardly makes me uncomfortable. You certainly put a lot of energy into your response.

I did point out a very legit reason WHY it would be necessary to consider a fully moderated forum.

The forum we had now is moderated. The difference is in the TIMING.... (and again, I believe it's JUST the boating forum... correct me if I'm wrong here..)

I will be the first to fight for your First Amendment Right. I may not always agree - but you have the right to say it.

However, when someone else [read: Don] might get in trouble for something he or she did not say - or because posters broke rules of the forum - then moderation is the solution.

Why would anything that anyone has to say here be deleted or edited or not even posted *IF* those posters played by the rules before they hit the "POST" button?

For the record - I've had threads locked and delated. I've had posts deleted and even got into it a little with Don over a disagreement of the rules of the forum. Bottom line: it's HIS forum. He owns it. We're allowed to play here. No one is stepping on your rights when you think about it... Put yourself in the bossman's shoes for a moment...

Peace.

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Old 08-06-2010, 12:55 AM   #6
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I have often times mentioned my gratitude to Don for the job he does as well. I've run web sites like this in the past and it is a TON of work. Not only is there the work involved, but it is a significant financial investment too. Granted I'm sure by now Don's probably not doing to bad revenue wise but still what you see here is the culmination of 15 years hard work, and as a webmaster he's has every right to protect his investment. While this forum and all the members who participate add value to the site, in the same way (as is with everything in life) a minority can create enough havoc to substantially affect the continued success of this site. I don't think there is anyone who is a regular here who would like, want or wish this site to disappear or suffer would we? Of course not but if you for one minute don't think an out of control forum won't hurt the reputation this site has, think again.

Over the years there have been some very heated debates on here, some of which were way way off topic and Don has been very gracious to allow these to occur within reason, and I think that he's been more than fair in letting things go as far as they did before finally having to say enough. How sad it is things went that far, even after repeated comments by a number of members, myself included, to self police this a bit and suggest that folks knock it off, take a breather and agree to disagree if it's impossible to make your point in a civil and prudent manner. However there is only so much you can do when there are those that just can't help themselves from being a "bull in a china shop" and repeatedly just make an a$$ of themselves. Hopefully this is just a temporary measure and in time the moderation will end, but for now, I don't blame Don one bit for his actions I think his efforts should be applauded as I'm sure this was not an easy decision to make and creates more overhead having to proof read everything. It should also be noted that there is no past indication that Don ever has been interested in censoring anyone so there is no reason what so ever to jump to that conclusion. Omitting comments that are nonsensical and combative does not equate to censorship no more so as shouting fire in a crowd should be considered free speech. XCR700, respectfully I think you were a little bit unfair there for what it's worth.

This is Don's place of business, we are welcomed guests but that doesn't give anyone the green light to essentially lob bombs and trash the place. That is exactly what your doing when posting irresponsible remarks or having virtual temper tantrums. It's childish and unnecessary.

In closing, XCR700 your original post expresses frustration and was I believe well thought out and substantive - something I think many who read it will relate to, I certainly do. But as has been discussed here a thousand times before a lack of common courtesy and dare I say a little decency could have gone a long way to prevent what has happened. Let's not allow this to further spread through out the site or give Don no other choice but to be a permanent babysitter.

We've got a beautiful weekend coming up, for those that can get out and enjoy it... I know I am!

Don - as I have said before, you got a thankless job, damned if you do, damned if you don't. I sincerely thank you for all you do!

Respectfully submitted....

MAXUM
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Old 08-06-2010, 05:27 AM   #7
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Default I believe its a step in the right direction

I for one have been guilty of getting caught up in a lot of the BS that has in past years gone on, on this site.
When it was around I always had much more respect for the other web site because it required your actual name instead of a screen name.
It’s easy to voice opinions no matter how hurtful they are when you’re an unknown hiding behind nothing more than a name. I believe if things were different and you were known as a person instead of a fabricated name like many use then much of the really hurtful trash talk would not be as prevalent.
So I’m for it although I also believe it is going to drive a lot of people away as a result because all the drama will be gone.
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Old 08-06-2010, 05:39 AM   #8
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Default It's all about following rules

Participating in the forum section of this site is a privilege, not a right, and that privilege is contingent on following rules.

I look at it in a similar manner for another passion of mine: golf. Most golf courses have rules regarding dress and the use of metal spikes vs. soft spikes. Wear metal spikes, you do not get to play. Dress codes usually are defined as no denim, no halter tops or sleeveless tops, no short shorts or gym shorts, no offensive writing on shirts, etc.. Violate any of these rules and you do not get to play on the course. They may be generous and allow you to play this one time, if not too far over the top, but not repeatedly.

Don has put down a set of rules, and if we want to play, we have to follow his rules, pure and simple. Like a golf course, if you want to wear blue jeans, find a course that allows them. Since joining this forum, I loved the family aspect of it where I could email links to my children (adults) and also grandchildren. That family aspect is being stretched at times, and unfortunately, Don feels the need to moderate Boating forums to get them back in line. So be it.

When we are all back in line, then there is nothing to say he will release the moderation.

Finally, Don: Thanks for all you have done in the past, and continue to do.

Dave
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Old 08-06-2010, 05:59 AM   #9
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Seeing how Don policed this site over the years, there must be some pretty serious, behind the scenes, stuff going on. Remember we don't see everything. Don usually does not overreact.

I wish it didn't have to happen, and I apologize if any of my comments contributed to the problem.
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Old 08-06-2010, 06:02 AM   #10
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Do any of you have a life? Enjoy it don't worry be happy.
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Old 08-06-2010, 06:11 AM   #11
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I too am disapointed that the "Boating Forum" has become moderated. Given the tone of many responses and that some members keep twisting many threads to justify discussing topics we have been asked to avoid (or something totally unrelated), I understand why it has happenned.

An internet forum is and should remain, a place for free expression. However, itis the MODERATOR's free expression not the individual members.

If you have people visit your house and someone expresses opinions that you don't want to hear you have a right to ask them to change the subject or ask them to leave. Anyone at the party who does not think their point of view is welcome is entitled to leave and find a venue of more like minded souls, or host their own soire.

I hope a few days without instant gratification will calm down the offenders and the Boater's Forum will return to its previous status.
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Old 08-06-2010, 06:21 AM   #12
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So I decided to chime in here... That Don feels he has to chime in here and do something I don't have a problem with. I don't feel as though he is stomping his foot down any harder then he has to on the people that need it.

What I have a problem with is that instead of cracking down on the handfull of people that need to be stomped on.... One of whom might even be me in Don's opinion, and that fine that is his opinion...He has chosen to stomp down on everyone....

Don, you have the control to stop specific people from posting, use that power on those that you need to... even if one of them is me.... but don't make everyone pay the price....
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Old 08-06-2010, 06:48 AM   #13
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Default Bingo!

Quote:
Originally Posted by upthesaukee View Post
Participating in the forum section of this site is a privilege, not a right, and that privilege is contingent on following rules.

I look at it in a similar manner for another passion of mine: golf. Most golf courses have rules regarding dress and the use of metal spikes vs. soft spikes. Wear metal spikes, you do not get to play. Dress codes usually are defined as no denim, no halter tops or sleeveless tops, no short shorts or gym shorts, no offensive writing on shirts, etc.. Violate any of these rules and you do not get to play on the course. They may be generous and allow you to play this one time, if not too far over the top, but not repeatedly.

Don has put down a set of rules, and if we want to play, we have to follow his rules, pure and simple. Like a golf course, if you want to wear blue jeans, find a course that allows them. Since joining this forum, I loved the family aspect of it where I could email links to my children (adults) and also grandchildren. That family aspect is being stretched at times, and unfortunately, Don feels the need to moderate Boating forums to get them back in line. So be it.

When we are all back in line, then there is nothing to say he will release the moderation.

Finally, Don: Thanks for all you have done in the past, and continue to do.

Dave
This is exactly my position as well - our participation here is a privilege, not a right.

Don Z. owns the forum ... it is his to do with as he see's fit. He is under absolutely no obligation to let anyone post anything at all here, and he is certainly within HIS rights to decide what he believes is and is not appropriate commentary on the forum that he created, owns, pays for and controls.

Over the years I have found Don to be exceedingly fair and even-handed, first in his establishment of appropriate rules for the forum and second in his enforcement of them.

We all agreed to abide by Don's rules when we registered to post here, and those who don't like the rules can simply go elsewhere. THAT is your right.
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Old 08-06-2010, 06:55 AM   #14
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Default Communication

is a wonderful thing. In real life, many problems occur over time, not spontaneously. People brood, they build up feelings rather than erupt. I think LI makes a great point. The personal approach is far easier to target problems. If I make a post that offends, no matter how many or few it does offend, I want to know about it personally. I will change it, delete it, whatever.

A simple PM or email will suffice. People that have character will read the note, and then decide what light they want to be seen in.

If people ignore those messages, then it's time to not be nice anymore. It's certainly Don's right, and if it's the majority opinion, they consider it his duty.

There's a huge difference between honest discourse and debate, and bomb throwing. Some topics just can't be discussed without people having many folks elevate the "discussion" to something personal or worse. Those topics just simply have to be abandoned.

If threads proceed in a courteous, caring manner, nobody on the site should have a problem. Some do anyway, like the rubber neck syndrome in accident scenes. They hate it, but they keep looking anyway.

I, for one, would prefer the personal approach, since it's the most direct method, and it provides for far less drama. If anyone has an issue with one of my posts, I want to here about it, so pm me. I can go over the edge like anyone else, and I want to be told about it. Nothing vague, just lay it out. Really, I'm ok with that. People tend to be too private with their feelings, and too vague and ambiguous with their responses.

I have no desire to visit Don's site here and walk over his floors with muddy shoes.
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Old 08-06-2010, 07:45 AM   #15
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This is a very specific medium, with very specific rules as to participation, clearly posted and, I believe, everyone agrees to the terms before they are allowed to join. The webmaster isn't preventing anyone from being able to say anything they want, he is just keeping it out of his venue. I support his right to do so and laud his efforts to keep this forum from turning into a bickering nightmare. Enough is enough.
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Old 08-06-2010, 08:54 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ITD View Post
I support his right to do so and laud his efforts to keep this forum from turning into a bickering nightmare. Enough is enough.
This pretty much says it for me.It's the endless bickering and repeating the same arguments over and over that is very unattractive.
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Old 08-06-2010, 09:16 AM   #17
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Unhappy Reflection point for all ???

Hummm,,, not sure if people are reading my post wrong or just adding their own comments but let me be clear the my disappointment about this change in the operation of the Winnipesaukee Boating forum (and only the boating forum,,,) is not any kind of personal attack on the administrator, its an expression of an extreme disappointment that all will be punished for the actions of a few and that the concept of an fully moderated forum just rubs me so wrong that I am struggling to express my feelings in an palatable and meaningful way.

This not a personal matter, its not some First Amendment concern, its not even an “entitlement” thing were we are talking about who owns what and what rules are legit etc – etc – etc,,,

I am simply expressing my feelings that I am very unhappy about the direction we are heading in as a society.

Forums are places where people express ideas, opinions, engage in discussion (sometimes heated) and vet concerns.

Forums are not places where the thin-skinned are protected from the inconsiderate, where every word is measured to ensure they are politically correct, nor where we go to throw mud at our neighbors.

One would hope that we can go to forums are speak freely and when we don’t like something we don’t read it unless its deemed so offensive that no one should ever read it, if some are advocating that this forum has spiraled into something like that, then they are reading things I have not seen.

I have seen things I did not care for on this forum, but nothing that rises to the level that I felt no one should read it.

If we have reached a point in our society that we need to have someone monitor and approve our communications because we are either so sensitive that we cannot be exposed to such communication or that our exchanges are so rude and inconsiderate that no one should read them then it is clearly a dark period in our history.

But if all this is just because we are letting our sensitivities run amok and we need to live with moderators watching and approving our exchanges, then shame on you all for delegating your adult responsibilities to a moderator to police your communications,,,,

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Old 08-06-2010, 09:48 AM   #18
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Question Punished?

Quote:
Originally Posted by XCR-700 View Post
...is not any kind of personal attack on the administrator, its an expression of an extreme disappointment that all will be punished for the actions of a few...
Punished?

Absolutely no one is being punished!

In one forum on this rather extensive site the owner has decided he will review any posts before allowing them to appear to assure, for the time being, that they conform to the rules of the site that he owns.

If you post on topic and within the rules your posts will appear, unedited, in a short period of time.

Now we are bickering over bickering.

Its easy, a quick and simple 3 step plan:

1. Follow the rules.

2. Your posts will appear.

3. Or go elsewhere


Punishment?

Absolutely and unequivocally not....
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Old 08-06-2010, 10:09 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XCR-700 View Post

I am simply expressing my feelings that I am very unhappy about the direction we are heading in as a society.

Forums are places where people express ideas, opinions, engage in discussion (sometimes heated) and vet concerns.

Forums are not places where the thin-skinned are protected from the inconsiderate, where every word is measured to ensure they are politically correct, nor where we go to throw mud at our neighbors.

One would hope that we can go to forums are speak freely and when we don’t like something we don’t read it unless its deemed so offensive that no one should ever read it, if some are advocating that this forum has spiraled into something like that, then they are reading things I have not seen.

I have seen things I did not care for on this forum, but nothing that rises to the level that I felt no one should read it.

If we have reached a point in our society that we need to have someone monitor and approve our communications because we are either so sensitive that we cannot be exposed to such communication or that our exchanges are so rude and inconsiderate that no one should read them then it is clearly a dark period in our history.

But if all this is just because we are letting our sensitivities run amok and we need to live with moderators watching and approving our exchanges, then sham on you all for delegating your adult responsibilities to a moderator to police your comunications,,,,
XCR-700. While philosophically I tend to side with your position, it's a philosophical position about an ideal world, not the real world. I have been absolutely amazed at the vituperousness of some of the responses in this forum (including a private message from PineNeedles suggesting I leave town because he felt my position on global warming wasn't welcome... well, I cleaned up what he said to me for public consumption).

So I too support moderated forums. I think the thin-skinned should not have to be subject to a torrent of abuse for having an opinion that differs from the majority (as many of mine seem to). It would be nice if the disagreements focused on the differences about the issues, but so often they become personally denigrating, and I even wish the forum were more moderated.

What good is a forum, if the unpopular (this year) get shouted off the forum for expressing an opinion. To respond to something you say above, yes, it does seem to me we are at a dark point in our history when intolerance and personal abuse of those one disagrees with becomes the norm.

That said, this forum tends to be much better behaved (in general) that something like the comments section of the Union Leader for example. Partly there is a regular group who recognizes others as regulars, and thus a substantial number of people DO discuss the issues instead of flaming people for seeing things differently.
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Old 08-06-2010, 10:38 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip View Post
Punished?

Absolutely no one is being punished!

In one forum on this rather extensive site the owner has decided he will review any posts before allowing them to appear to assure, for the time being, that they conform to the rules of the site that he owns.

If you post on topic and within the rules your posts will appear, unedited, in a short period of time.

Now we are bickering over bickering.

Its easy, a quick and simple 3 step plan:

1. Follow the rules.

2. Your posts will appear.

3. Or go elsewhere


Punishment?

Absolutely and unequivocally not....
I believe you are correct that this is not a punishment.

The fabric is far more clear than that!
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Old 08-06-2010, 04:36 PM   #21
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I just did a quick check and the following url's are available.

WinnipesaukeeFreeSpeech . com

NHFreeSpeech . com

WinFreeSpeech . com

WinniFreeSpeech . com

Anybody that doesn't like the rules here can always register one of those names and set up their own un-moderated forum. Then we can all post, troll and flame to our hearts content about any topic we choose.

I don't think anybody will do that, but if the do I will register and make a reasonable donation to help keep it running.
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Old 08-06-2010, 05:47 PM   #22
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I bet it is safe to say that the person most "disappointed" in this turn of events is Don.

If I were Don, I don't think I could have mustered the patience that Don has had over these many years at trying to keep the rules followed while encouraging interesting content. He has obviously let a lot of stuff go through. It just never seems to stop.

I have been fully expecting that one day we would all find that the site was turned off. Not moderated, not edited, no pleading, no speeches. Just off. Leaving us all wondering what happened? Will it come back? Then we would understand what rights we have.

Lets show Don that we can follow the rules and maybe someday we can earn the unmoderated option again. I don't want to find the web site off someday.
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Old 08-06-2010, 07:25 PM   #23
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I am disappointed as well. I'm not going to go on and on here. I LIKE this Forum.... Verbose posts are a waste of MY time and Yours. 90% of my posts were on the Boating Forum. I believe I have the experience (Offshore +) that most people on this board don't have and I am willing to share that experience with everybody..... From Seamanship to Boat Maintenance. I even make an attempt at humor at times.

Based on the posts in this thread.. I am in the distinct minority. What can I say..?

Moderation makes my knowledge impossible to convey when posts may take Several HOURS to show up. Moderation also makes a dialog between other people who also have knowledge... impossable.

Why not just Moderate the Polititions..instead of Everybody...? I know the moderator knows who they are. Just wondering. NB
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Old 08-06-2010, 08:43 PM   #24
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Unhappy Sorry, just not feelin it,,,

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Originally Posted by NoBozo View Post
I am disappointed as well. I'm not going to go on and on here. I LIKE this Forum.... Verbose posts are a waste of MY time and Yours. 90% of my posts were on the Boating Forum. I believe I have the experience (Offshore +) that most people on this board don't have and I am willing to share that experience with everybody..... From Seamanship to Boat Maintenance. I even make an attempt at humor at times.

Based on the posts in this thread.. I am in the distinct minority. What can I say..?

Moderation makes my knowledge impossible to convey when posts may take Several HOURS to show up. Moderation also makes a dialog between other people who also have knowledge... impossable.

Why not just Moderate the Polititions..instead of Everybody...? I know the moderator knows who they are. Just wondering. NB

In addition to the philosophical/ideological issues I have voiced about this matter, I also feel that the mechanics of this change will result in a far less useful, interesting, and user friendly Forum and subsequently less traffic overall. As an example of that I have posted NB's quote to illustrate but one example of the potential impact we may see from the moderation change to the Boating Forum.

This site in particular was one that seemed to have bursts of posting that resulted in a significant volume of traffic, some times at odd hours. I suppose if a reduction in forum traffic is considered by some to be a positive byproduct then this would be a positive, I would see that as a significant loss to all,,, Matter of fact it already looks to me like the traffic to that forum has dropped off quite a bit, but then I suppose you cannot derive any meaningful trend info from a one day sample.

Only time will tell but that is my observation on other sites that have added full gate-keeper style moderation. Eventually frustrated users migrate away from the moderated sites and find new ones that are more conducive to open and timely exchanges.

To be honest, all this talk about what the site admin has put up with leaves me completely baffled, not sure why a site admin would ever take any banter between two posters personally, you review the posts, if they are so inappropriate and offensive that they warrant removal you do so, if not ignore the whiners and don’t give the matter a second thought. If people think that the level of support before was way too high just what do you think will happen now? You just went from some minute fraction of your overall traffic being a problem and warranting review and disposition to ALL your traffic needing review and disposition! So the decreased site administration just doesn’t make any sense to me what so ever. It sounds more like an appeasement to keep certain high maintenance members happy, while the rest suffer the consequences of delays of posts and a policing of every word posted. Yup that’s progress and a step in the right direction,,, NOT!

I’m trying to take a breath and see the positive in this for the average user like myself who has no axe to grind with anyone here and no history with anyone here, and its just not clicking yet,,,

Maybe one of these posts will do a better job of explaining how the site admins role will be greatly eased by this change, how it will be better for all the users, and how this will increase traffic so that we all benefit from this change,,, maybe,,,

Sorry, I'm just not feelin the mojo here, its like someone pulled the plug wire off the Boating forum and the spark is gone,,, Guess we will see,,,,

Last edited by XCR-700; 08-06-2010 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 08-06-2010, 09:18 PM   #25
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Exclamation So Batman riddle me this, when is a punnishment not a punishment???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip View Post
Punished?

Absolutely no one is being punished!

In one forum on this rather extensive site the owner has decided he will review any posts before allowing them to appear to assure, for the time being, that they conform to the rules of the site that he owns.

If you post on topic and within the rules your posts will appear, unedited, in a short period of time.

Now we are bickering over bickering.

Its easy, a quick and simple 3 step plan:

1. Follow the rules.

2. Your posts will appear.

3. Or go elsewhere


Punishment?

Absolutely and unequivocally not....

World Dictionary
1. a penalty or sanction given for any crime or offence
2. the act of punishing or state of being punished
3. the removal of privileges or
4. any adverse conditions administered to an individual or group

Legal Dictionary
1 : the act of punishing
2 : the imposition of a penalty or change of conditions

Encyclopedia
punishment
the infliction of some kind of pain or loss upon a person for a misdeed (i.e., the transgression of a law or command). Deferred punishments consist of penalties that are imposed only if an offense is repeated within a specified time.

Batman riddle me this, when is a punishment not a punishment??? When punishment is a bad word so we call it something else,,,

If it looks like a punishment, and feels like a punishment and 3 sources on the internet say its a punishment, then it might be a punishment,,,

But for the sake of being reasonable and civil, we can call it/label it anything you want, but its still a loss,,,

As for this change being "for the time being" hummm didn't see that anywhere,,, So you are implying this it a bad poster time out and it will end at some point??? Or have I misread your post???
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Old 08-06-2010, 09:37 PM   #26
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Batman riddle me this, when is a punishment not a punishment???
When it's discipline. Punishment is done out of anger and frustration. Discipline requires calm, assertive energy (color me Cesar). I don't know if Don was frustrated and angry or just calmly asserting his rights as webmaster, but having interacted with him a few times, I think it's probably the latter.
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Old 08-06-2010, 10:47 PM   #27
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Exclamation A Rose by any other name,,,

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When it's discipline. Punishment is done out of anger and frustration. Discipline requires calm, assertive energy (color me Cesar). I don't know if Don was frustrated and angry or just calmly asserting his rights as webmaster, but having interacted with him a few times, I think it's probably the latter.
As I said call it anything you want, but in my mind (and apparently also the mind of the people who create dictionary and thesaurus sites) punishment = discipline = reprimand = etc,,,

Its all word-smithing in the end, what is important is regardless of what you call it, what is the impact? And in this case it’s clearly a form of punishment/discipline/loss of privilege. And one that was administered to every member of this site that posts to the Boating Forum!

And quite to my surprise few here seem bothered that we have reached a point where we are not only not upset that we have all suffered a punishment/discipline/loss of privilege, some are embracing this concept of moderation as a positive step.

Its amazing how hypocritical we are as a society when we are appalled that China imposes censorship over the internet, but we "need" it to moderate posts by bad forum members,,,

I completely acknowledge that this is a privately owned and operated web site and the owners can do whatever they want, but for anyone to post that they think moderation is a positive control to help people behave better is just insulting to any freedom loving American. Or at least it should be,,,

Generations of people have spilled blood, sweat, tears to get us to a point where we can have this lifestyle and the freedom to express our opinions without retribution and censorship and now we are asking to have our freedoms and privileges curtailed because we are either not responsible enough communicate with each other or we have become so thin-skinned and PC that we no longer want these freedoms and privileges so we just cast them aside.

Like I said before “If we have reached a point in our society that we need to have someone monitor and approve our communications, then it is clearly a dark period in our history.”

Ok now I have really said enough,,,
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Old 08-07-2010, 09:06 AM   #28
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I certainly understand your frustration that the whole boating forum is now moderated, XCR-700, but why don't you turn some of that frustration toward the ones who put us in this position in the first place? As others have stated, there are rules for participating in this forum. Skip, whom I feel is a fair-minded individual and the reason I'm back posting, asked nicely for people to return to civil discourse. It got worse. Don took the action which he felt was best for the entire forum. There are those of us who self moderate by occasionally leaving the forum when we think it's getting too ugly. I'm tired of that. I'm tired of stepping aside for those who can't play by the rules. So please try to understand it from "our" side of the fence.
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Old 08-07-2010, 11:17 AM   #29
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Default No sense in getting excited as no one really seems to care,,,

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I certainly understand your frustration that the whole boating forum is now moderated, XCR-700, but why don't you turn some of that frustration toward the ones who put us in this position in the first place? As others have stated, there are rules for participating in this forum. Skip, whom I feel is a fair-minded individual and the reason I'm back posting, asked nicely for people to return to civil discourse. It got worse. Don took the action which he felt was best for the entire forum. There are those of us who self moderate by occasionally leaving the forum when we think it's getting too ugly. I'm tired of that. I'm tired of stepping aside for those who can't play by the rules. So please try to understand it from "our" side of the fence.

Hi Rose,

It is not my intention to vent on you, its been a bad week for me from many perspectives and the issue of loosing hard fought for freedoms and privileges is one of those things that always gets under my skin and in a BIG way. And I always rail against any additional laws/rules/controls, I just don’t like others telling me how they want me to conduct myself when I have don’t nothing wrong. yup I admit right up front that this is a full blown personality quirk I have,,,

As for my “turning some of that frustration toward the ones who put us in this position” that’s who I am speaking to. The people who need to exercise some self-regulation both over their inconsiderate posts and the endless whining by some that someone posted something they don’t like.

I think we (you and I) are not connecting about my position or my standards.

We are adults and wearing a thin-skin and being all touchy-feely about a posting on a forum is just ridiculously childish. This in not Elmos World forum or some forum for the ultra sensitive and fragile, it’s a privately owned but publicly accessible website.

Your standards may differ and the site owners can impose any rules they want, but from what I have seen, we had no problems with personally threatening - pornographic – egregiously personally derogatory posts. If there was a problem with PMs, then that should be dealt with on an individual bases, not with the masses.

Clearly what we did have a problem with overly sensitive people who expected that the site owners would intervene in individual communications and act a liaison to make sure posts were PC and could in no way be construed as offensive to anyone ever! Well that’s just way too much coddling for me and an unrealistic expectation. Why the site owners put up with such foolishness from members is beyond me. Unless there are posts or PM’s that are personally threatening - pornographic – egregiously personally derogatory – etc then just tell the complaining party to get over it or stop reading the posts of the people they don’t care for. END of PROBLEM!

I had resigned myself to not post again on this subject, but as your message seemed most sincere, and like the majority of folks I have exchanged communications with on this site, you strike me a genuinely decent person who is also suffering some degree of frustration over this matter or my posts, I wanted to respond to you.

I have said my piece and promise to not use any more of the forums resources on this matter, others can take up this issue if they so desire or we can all just turn a blind to this and suffer the loss of our freedoms and privileges because a very few very people may have acted grossly inappropriately AND because a very few vocal individuals have decided to take over the sandbox by whining endlessly to the site owners until they got what they want. In either or both situations, neither of those groups has suffered greatly, but the rest of will bear the larger consequences of the results of this situation.

Enjoy your weekend!!!
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Old 08-07-2010, 11:47 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XCR-700 View Post
Hi Rose,

It is not my intention to vent on you, its been a bad week for me from many perspectives and the issue of loosing hard fought for freedoms and privileges is one of those things that always gets under my skin and in a BIG way. And I always rail against any additional laws/rules/controls, I just don’t like others telling me how they want me to conduct myself when I have don’t nothing wrong. yup I admit right up front that this is a full blown personality quirk I have,,,

As for my “turning some of that frustration toward the ones who put us in this position” that’s who I am speaking to. The people who need to exercise some self-regulation both over their inconsiderate posts and the endless whining by some that someone posted something they don’t like.

I think we (you and I) are not connecting about my position or my standards.

We are adults and wearing a thin-skin and being all touchy-feely about a posting on a forum is just ridiculously childish. This in not Elmos World forum or some forum for the ultra sensitive and fragile, it’s a privately owned but publicly accessible website.

Your standards may differ and the site owners can impose any rules they want, but from what I have seen, we had no problems with personally threatening - pornographic – egregiously personally derogatory posts. If there was a problem with PMs, then that should be dealt with on an individual bases, not with the masses.

Clearly what we did have a problem with overly sensitive people who expected that the site owners would intervene in individual communications and act a liaison to make sure posts were PC and could in no way be construed as offensive to anyone ever! Well that’s just way too much coddling for me and an unrealistic expectation. Why the site owners put up with such foolishness from members is beyond me. Unless there are posts or PM’s that are personally threatening - pornographic – egregiously personally derogatory – etc then just tell the complaining party to get over it or stop reading the posts of the people they don’t care for. END of PROBLEM!

I had resigned myself to not post again on this subject, but as your message seemed most sincere, and like the majority of folks I have exchanged communications with on this site, you strike me a genuinely decent person who is also suffering some degree of frustration over this matter or my posts, I wanted to respond to you.

I have said my piece and promise to not use any more of the forums resources on this matter, others can take up this issue if they so desire or we can all just turn a blind to this and suffer the loss of our freedoms and privileges because a very few very people may have acted grossly inappropriately AND because a very few vocal individuals have decided to take over the sandbox by whining endlessly to the site owners until they got what they want. In either or both situations, neither of those groups has suffered greatly, but the rest of will bear the larger consequences of the results of this situation.

Enjoy your weekend!!!

You just don't get it!
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Old 08-08-2010, 07:40 AM   #31
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You just don't get it!
I think the poster has several very good points, don't agree with everything but would never say they "don't get it". Opinions are just that and differ by individual.
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Old 08-08-2010, 07:45 AM   #32
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Default another thread

Have a look at the other thread.

A moderator keeps things on track..............
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Old 08-08-2010, 11:36 AM   #33
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Default It's deeper than just thinking "thin-skinned" people are whining...

There's a certain dynamics you're not taking into consideration here:

A self-moderated forum works when you have posters using their own names (not handles) with their posts.

A self-moderated forum is one where there's no real moderator at all - it's just up to the posters to follow the rules, if any...

Although many people here know my real identity, I post under a handle and not my name. I'd wager your real name isn't XCR-700 (that's a snowmobile model, right?) When people have to take ownership of their words, they are less likely to be as rude or engage in troll-like behavior. If someone commits slander (deformation of character) on a forum using their own name then they are more likely to suffer the consequences that comes with it.

I was involved in a case where lawyers picked up information on an internet forum for a slander case. They didn't have to ask the posters for their personal names (the forum was designed similar to this one and was lightly moderated). The information taken from the posts was used against the forum's moderators. Yeah, this happens in real life - I was a witness for the trial.

So I'll ask you this... Do you think such a situation would be fair to Don if things ever came to that? (That's a sincere question...)

I certainly don't think Don would deserve to end up in court for something posted here.... I support his decision to do what he wants with his forum.
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Old 08-10-2010, 01:34 PM   #34
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The speed limit forums contain:

172 threads
10,873 posts
500,000 + views.

Those are some extremely impressive numbers. It is safe to say there was some interest in these forums. Some might say the topic was beaten to death, hard to argue that with the facts in front of you. I have spent quite some time reading these threads. There is a little bit of everything in there. Some discussions are extremely entertaining, others are witty, many are thought provoking and some are simply childish.

There is a common theme they all share; one or more protagonists that escalate the debate. The instigators are very easy to identify. For the most part, they do not participate in the discussion. They simply add an inflammatory comment or two in the right spot and sit back and watch the chaos erupt. It’s like walking into a crowded room, breaking wind, and walking out. The troublemakers are not exclusive to one side of the argument. They create a flashpoint, a comment made to infuriate one group and it turns into a battle of who can land the biggest haymaker and receive the most accolades (thumbs up) from their side. I have seen this on other threads; a certain restaurant review comes to mind. They all end the same way… locked.

Enough is enough.

Several threads have been started to bring civility back to the forums (this being one of them). In this very thread there is a level headed debate between members with different viewpoints on the rules and civility. It seems even this thread is not immune to troublemakers. A single comment was posted to try to escalate the discussion into an argument. Fortunately, nobody took the bait.

That is progress
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Old 08-10-2010, 02:05 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kracken View Post
The speed limit forums contain:


There is a common theme they all share; one or more protagonists that escalate the debate. The instigators are very easy to identify. For the most part, they do not participate in the discussion. They simply add an inflammatory comment or two in the right spot and sit back and watch the chaos erupt. It’s like walking into a crowded room, breaking wind, and walking out. The troublemakers are not exclusive to one side of the argument. They create a flashpoint, a comment made to infuriate one group and it turns into a battle of who can land the biggest haymaker and receive the most accolades (thumbs up) from their side. I have seen this on other threads; a certain restaurant review comes to mind. They all end the same way… locked.

Enough is enough.

Several threads have been started to bring civility back to the forums (this being one of them). In this very thread there is a level headed debate between members with different viewpoints on the rules and civility. It seems even this thread is not immune to troublemakers. A single comment was posted to try to escalate the discussion into an argument. Fortunately, nobody took the bait.

That is progress
Very. And as you stated, if it's so easy to spot the instigators, why is it so hard to stop them? Answer? It isn't.
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Old 08-10-2010, 02:31 PM   #36
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Will this never end?
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Old 08-10-2010, 03:03 PM   #37
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I think this thread should be merged with the other one. Or vice-versa... http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ad.php?t=10584

No need to be repetive and redundant.
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Old 08-10-2010, 03:48 PM   #38
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Very. And as you stated, if it's so easy to spot the instigators, why is it so hard to stop them? Answer? It isn't.
Very true.

I am also reminded how difficult it is NOT to take the bait.
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Old 08-10-2010, 10:41 PM   #39
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Thumbs up Thoughtful post by Kracken

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kracken View Post
The speed limit forums contain:

172 threads
10,873 posts
500,000 + views.

Those are some extremely impressive numbers. It is safe to say there was some interest in these forums. Some might say the topic was beaten to death, hard to argue that with the facts in front of you. I have spent quite some time reading these threads. There is a little bit of everything in there. Some discussions are extremely entertaining, others are witty, many are thought provoking and some are simply childish.

There is a common theme they all share; one or more protagonists that escalate the debate. The instigators are very easy to identify. For the most part, they do not participate in the discussion. They simply add an inflammatory comment or two in the right spot and sit back and watch the chaos erupt. It’s like walking into a crowded room, breaking wind, and walking out. The troublemakers are not exclusive to one side of the argument. They create a flashpoint, a comment made to infuriate one group and it turns into a battle of who can land the biggest haymaker and receive the most accolades (thumbs up) from their side. I have seen this on other threads; a certain restaurant review comes to mind. They all end the same way… locked.

Enough is enough.

Several threads have been started to bring civility back to the forums (this being one of them). In this very thread there is a level headed debate between members with different viewpoints on the rules and civility. It seems even this thread is not immune to troublemakers. A single comment was posted to try to escalate the discussion into an argument. Fortunately, nobody took the bait.

That is progress


Kracken,

Just reading your post and realizing that as someone who in not one of the most active posters but is often opinionated, I hope I don’t fall into your class of instigators.

First and foremost I don’t have unlimited time to review every post and then respond to every post that I might have an opinion on. Its pretty much a hit/miss kind of thing with me, but I can assure you that I don’t sit back and think about ways to torque the other members up, I do have better things to do with my life,,, And for better or worse, when I do post I tell it the way I see it,,, so that picture I paint is 100% authentic and I’ll take my lumps for my sometimes different perspective (I never claimed to be mainstream,,,).

As for this thread in particular, being that I’m the bad guy that started this unthinkable opposition to moderation, I still stand by comments. I understand that the site owners can do whatever they want with their site, and as for all the other positions that have been posted on this matter, I acknowledge that from a certain perspective some may be practical reasons for moderation, unfortunately, for me the fundamental issues of a TOTAL dislike of censorship, the irritation of adults failing to take responsibility for their actions and/or being held accountable for their actions, and adults acting like spoiled brat children whining until they get what they want just pushes my buttons and then I turn into Mr prolific forum poster. Call it venting or whatever you want, but that’s my profile and I hope that is not what you equate to instigator. Maybe I’ll have to learn to take a breath before hitting the submit button,,,

As for the situation that allegedly got us into this full moderation mode, well again, maybe I’m odd man out here, but I do truly believe that there is nothing wrong with an expansive and heated debate on a forum. I think it causes some to review their positions to better articulate their thoughts and feelings, and maybe at some point they may even reevaluate that position. This is the backbone of our culture and to impose forced buffers (time) fully moderated reviews, and censorship is something that just rubs me wrong. That’s my reaction and clearly I am in the minority on this, but as I said, I fully embrace the concept of free and open debate, so I say have at it and if that does make me a instigator in the end, well then so be it. Guess I have been called worse,,, LOL

And my final argument in favor of open forums is exactly what you listed with your metrics, it clearly shows that “hot topics” are hot in terms of hits and participation. And that equals more revenue for the site, more exposure for its commercial advertisers, and hopefully more participation from posters and the value of different perspectives. And if I might add, I would be interested to see if the moderation is impacting the metrics of the boating forum,,, (negative)
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Old 08-10-2010, 10:46 PM   #40
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Talking Very true,,,

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Originally Posted by Kracken View Post
Very true.

I am also reminded how difficult it is NOT to take the bait.
Yup, good point and clearly its something I have not yet mastered,,, LOL

But I am working on it,,, eventhough you might not be able to tell from this thread,,,

Last edited by XCR-700; 08-11-2010 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 08-11-2010, 12:41 AM   #41
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Default Those of you who "own" forums and complain of the work...

It wouldn't be so much work if you did not insist on policing everything that your users said. Let them say what they want to say. If it is not politically correct, and it is censored, then that shows that Webmaster is prejudiced--for whatever reason--toward those with aggressive opinions--in other words, people that are not like himself.

I realize that this is the InterWeb. There will be people who anonymously insult and criticize me. Fortunately, my skin is thicker than wax paper.

The policy should be something like:

"The purpose of this message board is to provide a forum for the free exchange of ideas. Views may not necessarily represent that of the owner ("Webmaster")." That way he doesn't look bad.

Or, we can take the money approach. If I posted a thread bashing Bizer in the boating forum (look at the top of this page), would he let it stick? Even if true, I'm sure nobody would here my view.

What if Webmaster accidently hopped on the summer bandwagon and sunk his boat? I think it would be too easy or him to pre-censor anything we have to say about his situation.

...

There is a reason our American laws give us so much freedom of speech. I am not trying to legally apply the 1A here, just the principle of it. And that is for hundreds of years, and still now in every country in the world except this one, millions are silenced of their beliefs and opinions by only a handful of people.

Webmaster is trying to be in that handful.

Sure, legally he can do it. He "owns" this forum. And by signing up, we agree to blindly agree to whatever he decides to do with it.

But in this user's opinion, he should stick to mirroring the levels of freedom guaranteed by those much more brilliant than himself (people like our Founding Fathers and SCOTUS justices). Maybe if somebody is really causing a problem, he can ban that user.

XCR, thanks for being a fellow non-sheep. We're not bad guys, no matter what the Bad Guys say!!
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Old 08-11-2010, 05:32 AM   #42
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It wouldn't be so much work if you did not insist on policing everything that your users said. Let them say what they want to say.
The problem is that real-life is not that unicorns-and-rainbows. You end up with a few griefers who drive off all the rational users who contribute to the site, and now you're running a forum for 12 asswipes who just bicker with each other endlessly.
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Old 08-11-2010, 07:44 AM   #43
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Winni, I must defer to another poster here. Reading your posts, and some others, I can't help but wonder if you see any censorship in what you post. I think not, they all appear to be getting through the wall I understand what you're saying, but it doesn't pertain here. Newspapers and magazines have used moderation and censorship forever. Many opinion letters never see the light of day.

This is how Don's decided to proceed. How he can do this from his iPhone is beyond me, he must surely have better eyes than myself

There's a lot more to understand the why. So we'll just deal with it and be civil. Which is what it was not before. If subjects go poof that were not vile and nasty, then maybe you have a point. We should give this a rest now, because it is what it is.
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Old 08-11-2010, 08:31 AM   #44
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XCR-700,

I do NOT perceive any of your posts to be inflammatory, belittling or dismissive. Regardless of weather I agree with your point of view or not, your posts are articulate, civil and well thought out.
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Old 08-11-2010, 11:10 AM   #45
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Thumbs up its usually pretty easy to tell who the class acts are around here!!!

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XCR-700,

I do NOT perceive any of your posts to be inflammatory, belittling or dismissive. Regardless of weather I agree with your point of view or not, your posts are articulate, civil and well thought out.
Kracken,

I'm the first to admit that I may need to stop and take a breath on some matters that push my buttons.

Sorry I'm as flawed as the next guy and maybe more than most, but it is who I am and I post what I believe/feel.

And you are 100% correct, we dont need to agree on anything and sometimes it makes for more interesting reads when everyone is not all in agreement and it certainly causes people to stop and think about their positions on these matters we debate, and in my mind thats all good!

I like debate, I like heated debate, and I like different opinions!!!

And I think most of us agree we dont like trolls and personal attacks and unreasonable and sniping posts.

Do we need full full moderation on the Boating forum to address the improper posts of a few and the high sensitivities of some??? Well I guess thats just another issue where folks can agree or agree to disagree,,, Either way its here now. I have made my case against it or maybe just vented about it and I dont think I have any more to say about the specifics of this issue, but I am watching and listening and we will all see what the positive and negative impact of this change brings.

Either way, I am happy to be here and continue to be impressed by most of the folks who post here, You being one of them!

Thanks for the reply and PM, its usually pretty easy to tell who the class acts are around here!!!
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Old 08-11-2010, 12:08 PM   #46
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Default ...be the class act you want to see...

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Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee View Post
Those of you who "own" forums and complain of the work... It wouldn't be so much work if you did not insist on policing everything that your users said. Let them say what they want to say. If it is not politically correct, and it is censored, then that shows that Webmaster is prejudiced--for whatever reason--toward those with aggressive opinions--in other words, people that are not like himself.

I realize that this is the InterWeb. There will be people who anonymously insult and criticize me. Fortunately, my skin is thicker than wax paper.

The policy should be something like:

"The purpose of this message board is to provide a forum for the free exchange of ideas. Views may not necessarily represent that of the owner ("Webmaster")." That way he doesn't look bad.

Or, we can take the money approach. If I posted a thread bashing Bizer in the boating forum (look at the top of this page), would he let it stick? Even if true, I'm sure nobody would here my view.

What if Webmaster accidently hopped on the summer bandwagon and sunk his boat? I think it would be too easy or him to pre-censor anything we have to say about his situation.

...

There is a reason our American laws give us so much freedom of speech. I am not trying to legally apply the 1A here, just the principle of it. And that is for hundreds of years, and still now in every country in the world except this one, millions are silenced of their beliefs and opinions by only a handful of people.

Webmaster is trying to be in that handful.

Sure, legally he can do it. He "owns" this forum. And by signing up, we agree to blindly agree to whatever he decides to do with it.

But in this user's opinion, he should stick to mirroring the levels of freedom guaranteed by those much more brilliant than himself (people like our Founding Fathers and SCOTUS justices). Maybe if somebody is really causing a problem, he can ban that user.

XCR, thanks for being a fellow non-sheep. We're not bad guys, no matter what the Bad Guys say!!
Since I'm the only poster who stated that they also ran forums, I'd like to address a couple of things about your post...

First - I don't complain when I say it's a lot of work; it's a fact. Raising children is also a lot of work; I don't complain. Keeping a garden is a lot of work; I don't complain.... It's my choice to do the work. It's mostly rewarding and I have no regrets.

Second - It's not about being "politically correct". I will be the first to fight for your right to voice your opinion. If you think the new law in AZ is a bunch of crap or if you embrace it - that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Ditto for any other issue of the day. But if you pick a fight with another poster, start name-calling, etc., then you have crossed the lines of reasonable communication, wouldn't you agree?

Some people feel they're bad to the bone when they get behind a keyboard, for some reason. You've read some outrageous posts here in cyberspace (not necessarily winni.com) I'm sure... They hide behind a monitor and a handle while throwing insults; they're really cowards. They say things on the internet they would never say to someone face-to-face.

However... You yourself mention banning a poster who is out of line... We've had folks here on winni.com who were banned for some reason or another, but you've offered the idea here in the same breath while accusing Don of censorship. Sorry, but what's the difference? (Sincere question...)

In a nutshell - slander, hate-speech, harassment, speech provoking people to a fight, including any kind of threat or violence, obscenities (child porn, for example), are not protected forms of speech. I don't think our Founding Fathers would have argued for folks to have the "right" to use those as freedom of speech.

I don't know about you but I come here because I love the sense of community, love for the lake and the Lakes Region, and (guess what?!) the hot topics of the day. I've never told anyone how they should think; but I have tried to show another side - another point of view - about a situation. I get where Don is coming from - it's not an easy position to be in and implementing a moderation policy can make the forum more difficult to manage but will make people "think twice" before they post.

I'd imagine that if Don kept stats on how many posts he's had to edit or delete after implementing his change in policy, I'd wager it's far less than he had to edit or delete because someone posted something inappropriate.

I'm sure you'll agree that we want this place to be "family friendly" and attract others with similar interests. I don't want to have to hide a screen when my kids walk by because someone has used a "bad word" or posted an inappropriate pic. I can get that junk off Craig's List, if I want that schmutz on my computer (no, thank you).

I don't think anyone came here or signed up for this forum "blindly" - the rules were on the screen when I signed in. They're no different than most forums I'm a part of, really. I believe we can agree to disagree without name calling or personal attacks - why would you want those things to be OK in the first place? (again, a sincere question...)

Now, if you'll excuse me... I have kids to chase and weeds to pull...
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Old 08-11-2010, 01:03 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by XCR-700 View Post
Kracken,

Just reading your post and realizing that as someone who in not one of the most active posters but is often opinionated, I hope I don’t fall into your class of instigators.

First and foremost I don’t have unlimited time to review every post and then respond to every post that I might have an opinion on. Its pretty much a hit/miss kind of thing with me, but I can assure you that I don’t sit back and think about ways to torque the other members up, I do have better things to do with my life,,, And for better or worse, when I do post I tell it the way I see it,,, so that picture I paint is 100% authentic and I’ll take my lumps for my sometimes different perspective (I never claimed to be mainstream,,,).

As for this thread in particular, being that I’m the bad guy that started this unthinkable opposition to moderation, I still stand by comments. I understand that the site owners can do whatever they want with their site, and as for all the other positions that have been posted on this matter, I acknowledge that from a certain perspective some may be practical reasons for moderation, unfortunately, for me the fundamental issues of a TOTAL dislike of censorship, the irritation of adults failing to take responsibility for their actions and/or being held accountable for their actions, and adults acting like spoiled brat children whining until they get what they want just pushes my buttons and then I turn into Mr prolific forum poster. Call it venting or whatever you want, but that’s my profile and I hope that is not what you equate to instigator. Maybe I’ll have to learn to take a breath before hitting the submit button,,,

As for the situation that allegedly got us into this full moderation mode, well again, maybe I’m odd man out here, but I do truly believe that there is nothing wrong with an expansive and heated debate on a forum. I think it causes some to review their positions to better articulate their thoughts and feelings, and maybe at some point they may even reevaluate that position. This is the backbone of our culture and to impose forced buffers (time) fully moderated reviews, and censorship is something that just rubs me wrong. That’s my reaction and clearly I am in the minority on this, but as I said, I fully embrace the concept of free and open debate, so I say have at it and if that does make me a instigator in the end, well then so be it. Guess I have been called worse,,, LOL

And my final argument in favor of open forums is exactly what you listed with your metrics, it clearly shows that “hot topics” are hot in terms of hits and participation. And that equals more revenue for the site, more exposure for its commercial advertisers, and hopefully more participation from posters and the value of different perspectives. And if I might add, I would be interested to see if the moderation is impacting the metrics of the boating forum,,, (negative)
XCR-700, I couldn't agree with you more. Add one more black sheep to the list.
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Old 08-11-2010, 01:49 PM   #48
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Question "own" a website?

Yes....Don does indeed "own" this website.

Lock, stock and constitutionally protected barrell!

What do some of you not understand?

This site is the intellectual and constitututionally protected property of one person, and one person only....Don.

Any person that posts here, regardless of Don's carefully worded rules, does so at the whim, will and fancy of Don.

No one has a right or even a privilege to be here but Don.

The vast majority of the regular posters here understand that, and have voted with their feet when it come to some of these controversial and repetitive threads.

That a handful of you still don't understand Don's rights and his mission here would be laughable, if you didn't repeat your ignorance on the subject over and over and over and over!

Don has to be doing something right. He is approaching his second decade of existence here. I have seen a number of individuals attempt to copy Don's success, only to wither and fade within a matter of months.

I've had the privilege to be his guest for almost a decade now. I have gotten to understand the method of his madness during that time, and feel safe to say few love the Lakes region as much as Don, very few have sacrificed the time & money to promote it as Don does, and very few families have allowed their loved ones to spend so much time away from family to allow far away families the ability to visit the Lake electronically any time of the day or night.

Quite frankly I find some of the comments and allegations made against Don here, and in the other thread, dispicable.

This website is filled with so many helpful, interesting and just plain nice folk. But boy does it have a few jerks wedged in the crevices!

That some of you can't tell what column you fall in to is oh sooooo sad....

Once again, sorry Don....I won't post in these two foolish threads again.
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Old 08-11-2010, 02:00 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Skip View Post
Yes....Don does indeed "own" this website.

Lock, stock and constitutionally protected barrell!

What do some of you not understand?

This site is the intellectual and constitututionally protected property of one person, and one person only....Don.

Any person that posts here, regardless of Don's carefully worded rules, does so at the whim, will and fancy of Don.

No one has a right or even a privilege to be here but Don.

The vast majority of the regular posters here understand that, and have voted with their feet when it come to some of these controversial and repetitive threads.

That a handful of you still don't understand Don's rights and his mission here would be laughable, if you didn't repeat your ignorance on the subject over and over and over and over!

Don has to be doing something right. He is approaching his second decade of existence here. I have seen a number of individuals attempt to copy Don's success, only to wither and fade within a matter of months.

I've had the privilege to be his guest for almost a decade now. I have gotten to understand the method of his madness during that time, and feel safe to say few love the Lakes region as much as Don, very few have sacrificed the time & money to promote it as Don does, and very few families have allowed their loved ones to spend so much time away from family to allow far away families the ability to visit the Lake electronically any time of the day or night.

Quite frankly I find some of the comments and allegations made against Don here, and in the other thread, dispicable.

This website is filled with so many helpful, interesting and just plain nice folk. But boy does it have a few jerks wedged in the crevices!

That some of you can't tell what column you fall in to is oh sooooo sad....

Once again, sorry Don....I won't post in these two foolish threads again.
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Old 08-11-2010, 02:43 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Skip View Post
Yes....Don does indeed "own" this website.

Lock, stock and constitutionally protected barrell!

What do some of you not understand?

This site is the intellectual and constitututionally protected property of one person, and one person only....Don.

Any person that posts here, regardless of Don's carefully worded rules, does so at the whim, will and fancy of Don.

No one has a right or even a privilege to be here but Don.

The vast majority of the regular posters here understand that, and have voted with their feet when it come to some of these controversial and repetitive threads.

That a handful of you still don't understand Don's rights and his mission here would be laughable, if you didn't repeat your ignorance on the subject over and over and over and over!

Don has to be doing something right. He is approaching his second decade of existence here. I have seen a number of individuals attempt to copy Don's success, only to wither and fade within a matter of months.

I've had the privilege to be his guest for almost a decade now. I have gotten to understand the method of his madness during that time, and feel safe to say few love the Lakes region as much as Don, very few have sacrificed the time & money to promote it as Don does, and very few families have allowed their loved ones to spend so much time away from family to allow far away families the ability to visit the Lake electronically any time of the day or night.

Quite frankly I find some of the comments and allegations made against Don here, and in the other thread, dispicable.

This website is filled with so many helpful, interesting and just plain nice folk. But boy does it have a few jerks wedged in the crevices!

That some of you can't tell what column you fall in to is oh sooooo sad....

Once again, sorry Don....I won't post in these two foolish threads again.
Do we still not have the right to voice our opinion? Or is that frowned upon in this "renewed" Winnipesaukee forum? Call it a foolish thread now if you want. I guess if we're not talking about how great our boat ride was today and how pretty the white puffy clouds we saw today on that boat ride it's not applicable.
Yes, Don owns the site and can make any rules he wants. And to use the word "jerks" in my opinion is childish.
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Old 08-11-2010, 03:57 PM   #51
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Do we still not have the right to voice our opinion?
Technically, you never had that right in the first place. A forum is conceptually like private property.

You have the right to free speech in public areas and free publication. You do NOT have a right to free speech inside or on another entities' private property.

Walk in to Walmart and try to setup a soapbox and starting preaching away at some core value you believe in. You'll be escorted off the premises post-haste and will have no recourse.

People seem to have make-believe "rights" to all sorts of things, or not understand what their Constitutional rights do and do not apply to. I'm not claiming to be an expert either, but you might want to do a little more research and understanding before you go too far off in what you believe to be "right".
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Old 08-11-2010, 05:29 PM   #52
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Thumbs up brk-lnt...

Quote:
Originally Posted by brk-lnt View Post
Technically, you never had that right in the first place. A forum is conceptually like private property.

You have the right to free speech in public areas and free publication. You do NOT have a right to free speech inside or on another entities' private property.

Walk in to Walmart and try to setup a soapbox and starting preaching away at some core value you believe in. You'll be escorted off the premises post-haste and will have no recourse.

People seem to have make-believe "rights" to all sorts of things, or not understand what their Constitutional rights do and do not apply to. I'm not claiming to be an expert either, but you might want to do a little more research and understanding before you go too far off in what you believe to be "right".


You hit the nail right on the head!!!!

Ever since this thread showed up out here, I've been reading along and just praying to God to keep my mouth shut!.... I had to borrow one O'those white thingies what tie behind your back to keep me away from my keyboard, so to speak... you know, the boys in the white coats will lend'um for free!

Quality is job one out here! WebMaster Don not only Rocks & Rolls in this, and may I add, [ " The Best Website On This Planet " ]!!!!

Being a veteran myself, I have found that it is much more important to protect freedom of speech, and yet respect a more private space, should it also be important!...



Terry
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Old 08-11-2010, 09:07 PM   #53
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Get over It, Quit whining, get on with your life . This thread is total nonsense
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Old 08-11-2010, 11:00 PM   #54
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Unhappy Reflection point of us all, AGAIN!

I couldn’t help but laugh when I took a moment to clear my head and revisit some of the posts and I find it most interesting to see how some here who seem to support the moderation concept are also the ones who keep using interesting terms to address/describe any position counter to theirs.

Terms such as:
  • I won't post in these two foolish threads again.
  • You just don’t get it!
  • That some of you can't tell what column you fall in to is oh sooooo sad....
  • Will this never end?
  • I think it should disappear into the sunset and never return.
  • I've been reading along and just praying to God to keep my mouth shut!
  • Get over It, Quit whining, get on with your life . This thread is total nonsense
  • But boy does it have a few jerks wedged in the crevices!
  • those who don't like the rules can simply go elsewhere.
  • ETC, Etc, etc,,,

And people are talking about “rights and ownership and protections” and I cant help but ask the question is this what got the boating site saddled with moderation,,,

I am the first to admit that I am often strongly opinionated and maybe even a bit hot-headed, but these posts clearly seem intolerant of opposing views and the posters appear to embody an omniscient attitude !

Worst of all is this reoccurring theme that voicing an opinion/preference about not liking the concept of forum moderation and censorship is somehow an attack on the owner of the Winnipesaukee.com site, which could not be farther from the truth.

Is this really the example you folks want to be using to promote a kinder and more user friendly forum?

Or maybe this is what you consider leading by example??

Or is this just the shut up and do what I say or suffer the consequences of our group wrath???

I think I will stick to my original comment “Very Disappointing,,,”
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Old 08-12-2010, 01:22 AM   #55
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"...I...dont have a many year tenure here, I cannot speak to all issues that have occurred..."
Then you probably haven't seen other Lakes Region forums regularly purge their entire Boating forums.

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"...as I see open and reasonable exchanges about all issues of concern and other items of common interests as a cornerstone of our society, and to see it eradicated in one fell-swoop over banter is like cutting off someone’s tongue for uttering forbidden words or poking out their eyes for looking at something you don’t want them to see..."
Sorry you see it this way, but your complaint should be directed to the legal arguments of "Contract Law".

—> You signed a contract to be here. <—
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Old 08-12-2010, 05:38 AM   #56
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You've posted 11 times in this thread alone. I think you've made your point.......can we move on?

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Old 08-12-2010, 06:50 AM   #57
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You've posted 11 times in this thread alone. I think you've made your point.......can we move on?

Blue Thunder
My apologies, I didn’t know there was a specific standard convention for the number of posts to a single and fairly active thread (and relatively obscure and hidden in the bowls of the site one no less)

But you are100% correct not only am I the one who got folks all riled up for voicing an apparently controversial opinion, I am probably its most prolific poster on this matter even after saying I would not say any more about the issue. Sorry,,,

I will close out my activity on this matter by saying that I have in fact seen reasonable posts in favor of moderation! I still remain convinced that it is NOT something I favor for a variety of reasons, but some here have made their case and probably better than I have.

I remain disappointed that the members of the site are not joining together to request a reconsideration of this change, and promising to conduct themselves in an adult and civil manner and focus on meaningful discussion without personal attacks nor being so thin-skinned and closed minded that any opposition to their point makes the other guy a bad-guy and label the post/thread ridiculous-foolish-nonsense-etc as we have seen in this thread!

The problems that have been reported on the boating forum are far more clear to me after seeing how this thread evolved and as was my original thought, there is a LOT of hostile energy around differences of opinion, and at least on this thread, NO legitimate concerns for personal attacks and NOT a single nasty PM to me! (not that I am looking for any,,,)

Well that’s what I walk away from this thread with,,,

I sincerely want to thank to all who posted in a reasonable and meaningful way!!!

I look forward to our next exciting adventure,,,

Last edited by XCR-700; 08-12-2010 at 08:27 AM. Reason: typos,,,
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Old 08-12-2010, 08:25 AM   #58
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Technically, you never had that right in the first place. A forum is conceptually like private property.
Then what is the sense of having a forum if different opinions cannot be heard?
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Old 08-12-2010, 08:56 AM   #59
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Then what is the sense of having a forum if different opinions cannot be heard?
Dude. Seriously. The opinions HAVE been heard. About 8000 times. That's how we ended up here.

No one is trying to limit your ability to voice your opinion.

As far as I can tell, the moderation is simply making sure any blatant flame bait and trolling posts don't get posted, and you can't make a rational argument that THOSE posts add anything to the community.

It's *moderation* not *censorship* (for the most part, the only things being censored would appear to be those posts against the charter of the site, which you agreed to when signing up).
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Old 08-12-2010, 09:03 AM   #60
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IMO, there's a difference between expressing your opinion and beating a dead horse.
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Old 08-12-2010, 12:23 PM   #61
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IMO, there's a difference between expressing your opinion and beating a dead horse.
Ha! Since we're using this thread as a means of airing our grievances, I would like to express my utter dismay at this site's smileys selection. For example, this one would come in mighty handy on occasion

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Old 08-12-2010, 05:36 PM   #62
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Default It will be interesting

when the dead horse being beaten is your own. I think the next few years will provide some humor for many.

I read XCR's last post and understood full well what he meant. There are many that were quite put back by some of the more uncivil threads. In threads like this one, they may be civil, but their shout downs and put downs are still pretty obvious to most people.

I live right on Lake Champlain, up front and center. I "had" a next door neighbor from Winni, and we discussed the lake. She thought it was "so pristine" here. I reminisced about the cleaner water at Winni. She said, in a very civil tone, that Champlain was better because most every boat she saw here was a beautiful sailboat. So pristine.

She doesn't boat at all, neither power nor sail. Many on this forum remind me of her. She stated her case, and was quite perturbed, though civil, that anyone would dispute her view. It would be easier for me to turn a NASCAR driver into a pedal biker than vis versus.
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Old 08-12-2010, 08:20 PM   #63
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It will be interesting when the dead horse being beaten is your own.
My concern with beating any dead horse is that it ends up being unhealthy for the one doing the beating. I've learned over the years (and most likely lost a job because of it) that trying to get someone to see your logic is ultimately a waste of time and, if played out too long, sanity.

This situation of the entire boating forum being moderated rather than just the problematic few being punished reminds me of when I was in junior high and a few people misbehaved in the cafeteria. It ultimately led to the entire cafeteria being sat boy-girl-boy-girl for the entire lunch period. EEEEEWWWWW!!!! COOTIES!!!!! But I never thought how unfair of the adults to do that, I thought how unfair that we had to do that because of a few people who couldn't behave.
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Old 08-14-2010, 11:36 AM   #64
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Thumbs up There has ALWAYS been moderation of these forums

There has always been forum moderation. What a few of you are reacting to is the TIMING of the moderation or redacting. Countless times in the past I've seen recently posted items and tell myself that's not going to last long and a short time later, POOF, it's gone. It violated the forum rules. There was moderation. What Don has done for the moment is changed the timing of his "editing" from post post to pre-post. In other words. Instead of reviewing the posts after they show up on the web, in the boating forum he is reviewing them BEFORE they appear in public.

So, there should be no clamor about moderation - it has ALWAYS been around this site. Webmaster Don has always reviewed each and every post. And, Don is very moderate in his moderation (I would have "blown up" or "locked up" many more posts/threads than he has - like this one for instance ) .

IHMO he is a very "liberal" moderator. It is very clear what is being "moderated" (it's in the forum rules). Your ideas and comments are welcome and do not have to agree with anyone. However, your style or personal attacks (different from ideas) may not belong on this forum. Example: Do you think that Don agrees with everything FatLazyLess posts? (no offense FLL )

Let's give this a rest and go moderately about our enjoyment of the lake and this web site.

And again, a big Thank You to Don and to all whose participation help make this a great site.

sliding off box of soap now...
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Old 08-17-2010, 08:19 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip View Post
Yes....Don does indeed "own" this website.

Lock, stock and constitutionally protected barrell!

What do some of you not understand?

This site is the intellectual and constitututionally protected property of one person, and one person only....Don.

Any person that posts here, regardless of Don's carefully worded rules, does so at the whim, will and fancy of Don.

No one has a right or even a privilege to be here but Don.

The vast majority of the regular posters here understand that, and have voted with their feet when it come to some of these controversial and repetitive threads.

That a handful of you still don't understand Don's rights and his mission here would be laughable, if you didn't repeat your ignorance on the subject over and over and over and over!

Don has to be doing something right. He is approaching his second decade of existence here. I have seen a number of individuals attempt to copy Don's success, only to wither and fade within a matter of months.

I've had the privilege to be his guest for almost a decade now. I have gotten to understand the method of his madness during that time, and feel safe to say few love the Lakes region as much as Don, very few have sacrificed the time & money to promote it as Don does, and very few families have allowed their loved ones to spend so much time away from family to allow far away families the ability to visit the Lake electronically any time of the day or night.

Quite frankly I find some of the comments and allegations made against Don here, and in the other thread, dispicable.

This website is filled with so many helpful, interesting and just plain nice folk. But boy does it have a few jerks wedged in the crevices!

That some of you can't tell what column you fall in to is oh sooooo sad....

Once again, sorry Don....I won't post in these two foolish threads again.
Great post Skip. I completely agree that Don has total control and people have to respect his wishes concerning what topics and debate should and should not occur.

Per your suggestion and that of many others it was said to take the debate elsewhere. So in the spirit of getting the hot topics that continuosly come up off winni.com and hopefully allows for the boating forum to become un-moderated once again, sbonh set up a forum where these discussions can go on. I truely hope that it will be an alternative and a place Don can point to, to make sure those same conversations no longer occur here. If anyone is interested it is as www.sbonh.org/forums
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Old 08-17-2010, 05:00 PM   #66
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Default Moderated Forum

I posted on the Boating Forum ..maybe 10:00 AM (Tues) this morning. I didn't write the time down. Why would I..? SAMIAM got posted at 9:25. SO: No new posts for EIGHT hours. That works for me. NB

Last edited by NoBozo; 08-17-2010 at 05:36 PM.
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Old 08-17-2010, 07:15 PM   #67
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If I recall correctly, in the "good old days" every post by every member was moderated. Somehow the forum survived quite nicely and became what it is today. Thanks Don for doing what you had to do to make it what it is now.

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Old 08-17-2010, 08:51 PM   #68
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I posted on the Boating Forum ..maybe 10:00 AM (Tues) this morning. I didn't write the time down. Why would I..? SAMIAM got posted at 9:25. SO: No new posts for EIGHT hours. That works for me. NB
I usually check in to approve posts frequently but I happen to be on vacation this week. We had company today and were out in the boat most of the day and then went straight to dinner. Sorry, I'll try to do better tomorrow.
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Old 08-17-2010, 09:21 PM   #69
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Enjoy your vacation Don. We will survive!
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Old 08-18-2010, 02:12 AM   #70
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Default I've already been censored for using "Capt Bonehead"

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Quite frankly I find some of the comments and allegations made against Don here, and in the other thread, dispicable [sic].
Skip, Did you spend your legal career working for, I don't know, the Hazelwood School District?

Yes, I understand that because Don owns this website, legally he can do whatever he wants on it. We agree here.

But the point of my argument is that he is acting directly against what this country was founded upon. Surely I can disagree with his actions, right? We should also closely scrutinize him, because he is our one and only public authority figure (sorry, maybe I'm too much of an American... )

There is no other vehicle for public communication in the Lakes Region in which any and all ordinary people can log on and easily express their opinions. This forum is our ONLY option for expressing ourselves to other members of the Lakes Region. Since we have nowhere else to go, we are forced to take whatever Webmaster feeds us.

From a moral standpoint, in this American's opinion, he should not be censoring (and by censor I mean delay or change posts in any way, with or without the permission or notification of the poster) our messages. It is simply not his duty. His scope of censorship should be limited to banning those who frequent post hateful or pornographic messages.

I recently made a post in the boating section (Etiquette) which I later found to be changed. (I said "Capt Bonehead" and later found it changed to " {He} " ) Webmaster is already overstepping his role by micro-moderating our posts. And the least he could do is TELL us he changed something.

MY posts should not be delayed (and pre-read and changed) because of the actions of others.

Webmaster is not doing anything illegal (and nobody here thinks so). Again, the spirit of his actions are closer to that of the Chinese government than what we enjoy as Americans.

If our country hasn't burnt to the ground as a result of giving 300 million people this huge freedom of speech, why should it be so hard to control a couple hundred people on a message board?

Webmaster, just lift the pre-screening. I promise cities won't fall into the sea.
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Old 08-18-2010, 05:42 AM   #71
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I usually check in to approve posts frequently but I happen to be on vacation this week. We had company today and were out in the boat most of the day and then went straight to dinner. Sorry, I'll try to do better tomorrow.
Glad you are taking a much needed break Don...and take your time with the website, most of us here are very patient and very understanding of the fantastic job you do here!
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Old 08-29-2010, 08:11 AM   #72
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Default Victory!


XCR, we won! A check reveals the over-moderation of the forum is over (at least, for now). What a proud day for America and free speech fighters everywhere!

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Old 08-29-2010, 09:38 AM   #73
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Winnipesaukee

How deeply into your cheek can your tongue get? The debate over moderation is as over as the Iraq war was over when Bush declared "Mission Accomplished"? Are you suggesting this thread has another 7 years of life in it? ;-)
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Old 08-29-2010, 04:41 PM   #74
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Default Complete freedom of speech is an illusion

It is a very rare place that you can say whatever you want to. Try walking through a public park and yelling at people at random and see how long you get away with it before a police officer has a conversation with you. Pure freedom of speech doesn't really exist. We are expected to use our voice in a respectful and non threatening manner. We are constantly being "moderated" by society.

In this forum we have always been moderated by the rules of the forum that we all agreed to when we join. Don has respectfully allowed us to police ourselves until we demonstrate that some of us are incapable of doing that. I'm sure Don has stepped in to enforce the rules through moderation with extreme regret. It is a disappointment in his vision for the site and a major hassle for him as well. The rules have not changed, Don as simply tightened up the enforcement. My experience with Don has been that he is extremely tolerant and fair. Don has not stopped debate, simply required that we be respectful and fair. That should not be a burden.
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