Go Back   Winnipesaukee Forum > Winnipesaukee Forums > Home, Cottage or Land Maintenance
Home Forums Gallery YouTube Channel Classifieds Links Calendar Register FAQDonate Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-27-2018, 05:16 PM   #1
bigdog
Senior Member
 
bigdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Central MA-Gilford
Posts: 938
Thanks: 122
Thanked 62 Times in 52 Posts
Default Propane usage ???

I'm new to propane gas user, with new home purchase this past June,
coming from oil heat, and concerned about my propane usage ?

I have a 2200 SF house, which is 14 yrs old, very well insulated, Marvin windows, gas furnace with separate hot water heater.

We keep the thermostats at 68 degrees in the main living area durning the day, then lower to 65 degrees at night. The upstairs bedrooms are kept at a constant 65 degrees.

I had 356 gal delivered on 12/6 to fill the tank (500 gal in ground, they only fill tank to 80-85%) and another 193 gal delivered today (12/27), which means I've burned about 10 gal per day ! The gas delivery driver did note that the gas regulator was covered with frost/ice, and the same with the gas hose line to the house ( Is this normal ?)

10 gal propane usage per day seems rather excessive !
Furnace was turned up in Sept., and assuming all was good?

Does 10 gal per day seem like a normal usage ?
We don't keep the house really warm, but comfortable, it's not like we're sitting around in our underwear, and wife is compiling she's always cold.

Thanks,
Bigdog
bigdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2018, 05:45 PM   #2
8gv
Senior Member
 
8gv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 979
Thanks: 18
Thanked 289 Times in 170 Posts
Default

You may have a leak.

Tell them to bring out the sniffer.
8gv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2018, 06:43 PM   #3
ursa minor
Senior Member
 
ursa minor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Tuftonborough & Franklin MA
Posts: 219
Thanks: 59
Thanked 120 Times in 50 Posts
Default

Propane has fewer BTUs per gallon than fuel oil (92,000 BTU / gal for propane vs 140,000 BTUs /gal for #2 oil or roughly 50% less energy content per gallon for propane). If you were using 5 to 6 gallons a day in similar weather with oil in your old house assuming it was of similar size, what you’re seeing now is probably in the ballpark.
__________________
" Any day with a boat ride in it is a good day"

Last edited by ursa minor; 12-27-2018 at 06:46 PM. Reason: Oops, saw this is first winter in new house.
ursa minor is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ursa minor For This Useful Post:
ACME on the Broads (01-08-2019)
Old 12-27-2018, 06:54 PM   #4
Outdoorsman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 581
Thanks: 62
Thanked 131 Times in 90 Posts
Default

It seems strange to do your homework after the fact

https://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums...ad.php?t=24058

https://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums...d.php?p=305636
Outdoorsman is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Outdoorsman For This Useful Post:
moose tracks (12-28-2018)
Old 12-27-2018, 08:20 PM   #5
MAXUM
Senior Member
 
MAXUM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hooksett, NH & Bear Island, NH
Posts: 1,912
Thanks: 176
Thanked 1,236 Times in 470 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdog View Post
I'm new to propane gas user, with new home purchase this past June,
coming from oil heat, and concerned about my propane usage ?

I have a 2200 SF house, which is 14 yrs old, very well insulated, Marvin windows, gas furnace with separate hot water heater.

We keep the thermostats at 68 degrees in the main living area durning the day, then lower to 65 degrees at night. The upstairs bedrooms are kept at a constant 65 degrees.

I had 356 gal delivered on 12/6 to fill the tank (500 gal in ground, they only fill tank to 80-85%) and another 193 gal delivered today (12/27), which means I've burned about 10 gal per day ! The gas delivery driver did note that the gas regulator was covered with frost/ice, and the same with the gas hose line to the house ( Is this normal ?)

10 gal propane usage per day seems rather excessive !
Furnace was turned up in Sept., and assuming all was good?

Does 10 gal per day seem like a normal usage ?
We don't keep the house really warm, but comfortable, it's not like we're sitting around in our underwear, and wife is compiling she's always cold.

Thanks,
Bigdog

You really should have somebody who knows this stuff to take a look at your setup. There are a few things I do know only because I did a ton of research into this stuff when I re-did the propane service to my camp.

First thing you need to do is find out what the draw is off your system based on the consumption of all of your appliances. The next thing to do is to ensure you have things plumbed appropriately so that you can move sufficient volume based on the total maximum consumption of all your appliances. This includes ensuring that the diameter of the feed lines is correct.

Next is to look at your regulator which should be a two stage. Regulators also need to be capable of handing the flow demand. If you are icing up that indicates to me you either have a possible leak or your demand is exceeding the flow capacity. Flow and or draw of each appliance is measured in inches of water column per PSI of flow. Regulators are sized for the amount of flow they can handle. Furthermore there is a bleed off on the regulator if the pressure in the system builds up to high and it will actually "vent" mechanically if it needs to.

With a tank as large as you have, that should provide ample surface area for boil off to create the gas needed to feed the house, however, the colder it gets the more difficult it is for the liquid to boil off and produce gas and less pressure. It is actually possible to freeze up a tank under the right conditions. Keep in mind like any fuel there is humidity and condensation that can occur in the take so that when present can restrict or all out block flow should it get cold enough. Temps below zero is where this can really become a problem.

That's about the extent of my understanding so the bottom line is if you are building ice on your regulator and supply line that could indicate a problem, one that is probably best diagnosed and handled by somebody that knows what they are doing.

I can tell you that when I did my system over, I chose to plumb the house with 1/2 feed lines, one to my heater and a separate one to my range in the kitchen, they are fed off a manifold coming out of the regulator. The regulator I chose was a dual stage that was capable of handling a flow approximately 3 times my actual draw (at the moment) thinking if I add any other appliances I have some capacity to accommodate that need. I am somewhat restricted in the fact I draw off of two 100 pound bottles at the same time so the surface area for boil off is limited. That said I have operated both the heater and range in temps well below zero and never had any sign of ice build up.

Take this for what it's worth, I am by no means a professional and did after installing everything have it checked by a licensed gas guy who not only gave the system a second leak test (I did the first) but also confirmed that my install and choice of materials used was well suited for my needs.
MAXUM is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 12-27-2018, 08:39 PM   #6
Cobalt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 118
Thanks: 65
Thanked 24 Times in 17 Posts
Default Propane vs Oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdog View Post
I'm new to propane gas user, with new home purchase this past June,
coming from oil heat, and concerned about my propane usage ?

I have a 2200 SF house, which is 14 yrs old, very well insulated, Marvin windows, gas furnace with separate hot water heater.

We keep the thermostats at 68 degrees in the main living area durning the day, then lower to 65 degrees at night. The upstairs bedrooms are kept at a constant 65 degrees.

I had 356 gal delivered on 12/6 to fill the tank (500 gal in ground, they only fill tank to 80-85%) and another 193 gal delivered today (12/27), which means I've burned about 10 gal per day ! The gas delivery driver did note that the gas regulator was covered with frost/ice, and the same with the gas hose line to the house ( Is this normal ?)

10 gal propane usage per day seems rather excessive !
Furnace was turned up in Sept., and assuming all was good?

Does 10 gal per day seem like a normal usage ?
We don't keep the house really warm, but comfortable, it's not like we're sitting around in our underwear, and wife is compiling she's always cold.

Thanks,
Bigdog

Some other factors to consider when comparing the two fuels:

Pros of heating with Propane

Propane gas generally has a lower cost per gallon than heating oil
Propane equipment typically runs more efficiently than heating oil equipment
Propane produces almost no carbon dioxide when burned
Propane heating equipment requires less maintenance and last longer than heating oil-based equipment, since propane burns cleaner
Propane is stored as gas and is nontoxic and nonpoisonous, so it can’t pool and contaminate groundwater or soil if it leaks; that means propane tanks can be safely installed underground
Propane appliances can be vented using regular PVC pipe through the roof or a wall rather than through a chimney
Propane can also be used to power other high efficiency appliances such as ranges, water heaters, and pool heaters – all from the same fuel tank

Cons of heating with Propane

Propane produces fewer BTUs than oil heating
Propane-burning equipment is typically more expensive up front than oil burning equipment
Propane requires special safety precautions, since the gas is combustible in air

Pros of heating with Fuel Oil

Heating oil has a higher BTU output per gallon and is used up more slowly than propane – which could mean you will pay less to heat your house with heating oil, even if the per gallon cost of propane is less
Oil-burning equipment generally costs less to purchase than propane-burning equipment

Cons of heating with Fuel Oil

Heating oil tanks – especially older steel-lined ones – can leak; an oil spill can be extremely costly to clean up, and it’s an expense that is often not covered by home owner’s insurance
Heating oil prices are more volatile than propane, since most of the heating oil supply comes from off shore and is subject to global market forces; most propane is produced in the US
Heating oil produces much more carbon dioxide gas than propane when burned
Oil-burning appliances require more frequent cleaning and maintenance
In an oil burning home, most other appliances – including water heaters, ranges, clothes dryers, etc.) are run by inefficient electricity rather than propane
Cobalt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 05:21 AM   #7
fatlazyless
Senior Member
 
fatlazyless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,939
Thanks: 187
Thanked 441 Times in 325 Posts
Default

If you have a leak, it would be very very smelly, and very noticeable, and almost always comes from a fitting like a compression fitting done by the home owner with an el cheapo compression tool.

For good tight fittings, use a quality compression tool made by Rigid.
__________________
Down & out, livn that Walmart side of the lake!
fatlazyless is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 07:54 AM   #8
swnoel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 215
Thanks: 21
Thanked 53 Times in 36 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAXUM View Post
You really should have somebody who knows this stuff to take a look at your setup. There are a few things I do know only because I did a ton of research into this stuff when I re-did the propane service to my camp.

First thing you need to do is find out what the draw is off your system based on the consumption of all of your appliances. The next thing to do is to ensure you have things plumbed appropriately so that you can move sufficient volume based on the total maximum consumption of all your appliances. This includes ensuring that the diameter of the feed lines is correct.


That should have been done when the gas lines and equipment were installed or added to. There are solutions to smaller lines that need to supply more btu's that the current system can handle.

Next is to look at your regulator which should be a two stage. Regulators also need to be capable of handing the flow demand. If you are icing up that indicates to me you either have a possible leak or your demand is exceeding the flow capacity. Flow and or draw of each appliance is measured in inches of water column per PSI of flow. Regulators are sized for the amount of flow they can handle. Furthermore there is a bleed off on the regulator if the pressure in the system builds up to high and it will actually "vent" mechanically if it needs to.


Icing on the exterior is something that happens when it gets cold , it can indicate a "possible" problem, but not always. Hopefully they installed methanol in the tank during the purging process otherwise you may have freezing up of the regulator. Regulators are twins, single stage , and second stage. I'm assuming you're using a twin which is not the best solution with multiple appliances unless they are low btu. I actually prefer 2 pound systems with maxitrols, but first and second stage systems are fine if the supply lines are not under sized.

With a tank as large as you have, that should provide ample surface area for boil off to create the gas needed to feed the house, however, the colder it gets the more difficult it is for the liquid to boil off and produce gas and less pressure. It is actually possible to freeze up a tank under the right conditions. Keep in mind like any fuel there is humidity and condensation that can occur in the take so that when present can restrict or all out block flow should it get cold enough. Temps below zero is where this can really become a problem.

It's an underground tank , so its vaporization rate is unaffected by temperature like above ground tanks and methanol should have been injected during the tank purging process.

That's about the extent of my understanding so the bottom line is if you are building ice on your regulator and supply line that could indicate a problem, one that is probably best diagnosed and handled by somebody that knows what they are doing.

Hopefully they did a gas check form and tested for leaks before they filled the tank.

I can tell you that when I did my system over, I chose to plumb the house with 1/2 feed lines, one to my heater and a separate one to my range in the kitchen, they are fed off a manifold coming out of the regulator. The regulator I chose was a dual stage that was capable of handling a flow approximately 3 times my actual draw (at the moment) thinking if I add any other appliances I have some capacity to accommodate that need. I am somewhat restricted in the fact I draw off of two 100 pound bottles at the same time so the surface area for boil off is limited. That said I have operated both the heater and range in temps well below zero and never had any sign of ice build up.


[B]1/2 inch copper or pipe? The difference is astronomical. I'm assuming this is a camp with low btu output. What people don't realize is a setup like yours has about 38 gallons of liquid propane total and as it gets colder you don't have enough tank to vaporize the propane inside, resulting with propane in the tank that you can't use.[B]

Take this for what it's worth, I am by no means a professional and did after installing everything have it checked by a licensed gas guy who not only gave the system a second leak test (I did the first) but also confirmed that my install and choice of materials used was well suited for my needs.

Your gas supplier should have performed a gas check before they put a tank on or filled the system.
In my many years in the fuel and installation business I was never surprised with the things I saw in the field.
swnoel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 07:59 AM   #9
swnoel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 215
Thanks: 21
Thanked 53 Times in 36 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatlazyless View Post
If you have a leak, it would be very very smelly, and very noticeable, and almost always comes from a fitting like a compression fitting done by the home owner with an el cheapo compression tool.

For good tight fittings, use a quality compression tool made by Rigid.
Not all leaks are detectable by an odor test. The least you should do is a bubble test and that's not with your dish soap.
swnoel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 08:03 AM   #10
Biggd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Waltham Ma./Meredith NH
Posts: 1,391
Thanks: 306
Thanked 208 Times in 151 Posts
Default

Think about adding a hyper mini split that throws heat and AC. It will heat cheaper than propane.
Biggd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 08:06 AM   #11
swnoel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 215
Thanks: 21
Thanked 53 Times in 36 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdog View Post
I'm new to propane gas user, with new home purchase this past June,
coming from oil heat, and concerned about my propane usage ?

I have a 2200 SF house, which is 14 yrs old, very well insulated, Marvin windows, gas furnace with separate hot water heater.

We keep the thermostats at 68 degrees in the main living area durning the day, then lower to 65 degrees at night. The upstairs bedrooms are kept at a constant 65 degrees.

I had 356 gal delivered on 12/6 to fill the tank (500 gal in ground, they only fill tank to 80-85%) and another 193 gal delivered today (12/27), which means I've burned about 10 gal per day ! The gas delivery driver did note that the gas regulator was covered with frost/ice, and the same with the gas hose line to the house ( Is this normal ?)

10 gal propane usage per day seems rather excessive !
Furnace was turned up in Sept., and assuming all was good?

Does 10 gal per day seem like a normal usage ?
We don't keep the house really warm, but comfortable, it's not like we're sitting around in our underwear, and wife is compiling she's always cold.

Thanks,
Bigdog
It's common to see frost on an active regulator when it gets very cold and can creep along the line. Undersized lines could also cause this. One thing I used to see all the time was those that installed additional equipment on a system without increasing either the line size or converting the system to a 2# system. It's possible the lines are not large enough to supply the required btu's needed to heat your home resulting in a system that seldom shuts off. Kind of like boiling water with the burner on low... doesn't boil but it will use a lot of fuel trying.
swnoel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 08:09 AM   #12
swnoel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 215
Thanks: 21
Thanked 53 Times in 36 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggd View Post
Think about adding a hyper mini split that throws heat and AC. It will heat cheaper than propane.
I installed quite a few Hyperheats with solar panels on roofs to supply the electricity for them. Course you could buy a lot of fuel for the cost of the panels, but I liked the idea.
swnoel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 08:24 AM   #13
Biggd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Waltham Ma./Meredith NH
Posts: 1,391
Thanks: 306
Thanked 208 Times in 151 Posts
Thumbs up

I'm not a big solar fan because I'm not sure I will be there long enough to get the pay back. But I love the mini splits as a second heating system. I have oil heat and a wood stove but last summer was the first time I needed to put the window AC's in. I'm going to install a hyper mini split. Along with the AC it gives me a little piece of mind if the oil burner goes down.
Biggd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 08:41 AM   #14
codeman671
Senior Member
 
codeman671's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,475
Thanks: 91
Thanked 361 Times in 228 Posts
Default

Typically a propane company has to pressure test a system before filling. Proulx always did at our last house.

A frozen regulator can mean it was over filled as well.
codeman671 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 08:41 AM   #15
joey2665
Senior Member
 
joey2665's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Meredith Bay & LI, NY
Posts: 1,525
Thanks: 282
Thanked 355 Times in 233 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggd View Post
I'm not a big solar fan because I'm not sure I will be there long enough to get the pay back. But I love the mini splits as a second heating system. I have oil heat and a wood stove but last summer was the first time I needed to put the window AC's in. I'm going to install a hyper mini split. Along with the AC it gives me a little piece of mind if the oil burner goes down.
Mini splits are awesome. Easy to install and they work great and extremely efficient
joey2665 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 09:57 AM   #16
swnoel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 215
Thanks: 21
Thanked 53 Times in 36 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by codeman671 View Post
Typically a propane company has to pressure test a system before filling. Proulx always did at our last house.

A frozen regulator can mean it was over filled as well.
Companies routinely over fill tanks in the winter. Why did Proulx do a pressure test, only a leak check is required unless new piping has been installed?
swnoel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 10:22 AM   #17
SAMIAM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Moultonborough
Posts: 2,333
Thanks: 133
Thanked 907 Times in 335 Posts
Default

Doubt very much that you have a leak. Anyone installing or servicing gas appliances must be licensed and there is a very strict procedure that requires testing of all connections with a soap solution. If it were in your house you would have a distinct rotten egg smell. If you want to be sure get a bottle of Dawn dish soap and a small paint brush. Go outside and brush liquid soap on all your connections from the tank to the house, If you have a leak you will see bubbles appear.
SAMIAM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 11:17 AM   #18
swnoel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 215
Thanks: 21
Thanked 53 Times in 36 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAMIAM View Post
Doubt very much that you have a leak. Anyone installing or servicing gas appliances must be licensed and there is a very strict procedure that requires testing of all connections with a soap solution. If it were in your house you would have a distinct rotten egg smell. If you want to be sure get a bottle of Dawn dish soap and a small paint brush. Go outside and brush liquid soap on all your connections from the tank to the house, If you have a leak you will see bubbles appear.

Please be aware that dish soap contains chlorides and or chlorine and will corrode and or damage fittings and pipes. If you chose to use them wash the soap off after testing.
swnoel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 11:31 AM   #19
DickR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Moultonborough
Posts: 490
Thanks: 0
Thanked 132 Times in 88 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobalt View Post
....

Pros of heating with Propane
....
Propane produces almost no carbon dioxide when burned
Perhaps you meant carbon monoxide. Otherwise, the complete combustion of any hydrocarbon fuel oxides the carbon to CO2 and the hydrogen to H2O. Even the human body does that, although at body temperature. It may be noted, however, that the ratio of CO2 to H2O produced is least for methane (CH4), then ethane (C2H6), then for propane (C3H8). By the time you get up to the chain length of heating oil, 12 or more carbon atoms, the hydrogen/carbon ratio has settled down to around 2 to 1, giving around a 1:1 ratio of CO2 to H2O molecules in the flue gas. Of course, none of this is of any use to the OP's concern about rate of consumption. But it's a slow morning, looking out watching rain turn snow to slush.
DickR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 11:46 AM   #20
Whimsey
Senior Member
 
Whimsey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Rum Point/West Alton
Posts: 169
Thanks: 200
Thanked 31 Times in 19 Posts
Default Propane Usage per Day

Bigdog, I used about 15 gallons per day in November but my home is substantially bigger than 2200 sf (more than 3X built in 2003). And my house can be inefficient if the wind is blowing down the lake. Your usage looks a bit high to me. Worth investigating if the furnace/water heater are operating efficiently, as well as the other possibilities raised above. Good luck.
Whimsey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 03:11 PM   #21
Cobalt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 118
Thanks: 65
Thanked 24 Times in 17 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DickR View Post
Perhaps you meant carbon monoxide. Otherwise, the complete combustion of any hydrocarbon fuel oxides the carbon to CO2 and the hydrogen to H2O. Even the human body does that, although at body temperature. It may be noted, however, that the ratio of CO2 to H2O produced is least for methane (CH4), then ethane (C2H6), then for propane (C3H8). By the time you get up to the chain length of heating oil, 12 or more carbon atoms, the hydrogen/carbon ratio has settled down to around 2 to 1, giving around a 1:1 ratio of CO2 to H2O molecules in the flue gas. Of course, none of this is of any use to the OP's concern about rate of consumption. But it's a slow morning, looking out watching rain turn snow to slush.
You are right. It could be carbon monoxide.

Complete combustion of propane results in the formation of carbon dioxide and water vapour. Carbon monoxide is a by-product of combustion when there is not enough oxygen to burn the propane completely.

The rest is above my pay grade.
Cobalt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2018, 03:03 PM   #22
Dave19
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 2
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Propane Usage

Bigdog:

I realize the scale is dramatically different in my case but for comparative purposes:

I have a 1400 sq ft Energy Star Rated home. We keep our thermostat at 66 day / 62 night.

During December I have averaged 2 gallons per day of propane usage.

My only other gas appliances are an on demand water heater and fireplace.

I will state that running the fireplace for a 2-3 hours in the evening consumes an almost equitable amount of propane as a full days usage for the furnace.

I have never noticed any icing on my propane tank or regulator.

Hope this helps somewhat.
Dave19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2019, 09:00 PM   #23
bruinsfan
Senior Member
 
bruinsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Belknap County, NH
Posts: 106
Thanks: 68
Thanked 42 Times in 22 Posts
Default

Propane prices are out of control this year. I just filled up at 3.49 with Amerigas. I looked at last year's old bills and it $1 more per gallon.
bruinsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to bruinsfan For This Useful Post:
WinnisquamZ (01-05-2019)
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.

This page was generated in 0.17629 seconds