Using Lake Water year round

[correira99]

Hello everyone,

I was hoping to get everyone's opinions on an issue I'm having.

Background: I bought a house on Lake Waukewan 5 years ago after 40+ years of renting. The previous owner had lived there year round until the last few years of his life. I bought the house and did exterior and interior work. Now I want to fix the plumbing so I can use it year round.

Problem: The water line runs underground from my house and pops up at the shoreline and then runs along the lake floor, out quite aways. I want to use the lake water year round in the winter. The problem a few plumbers have told me is that they cant dig the line into the lake floor, therefore it will freeze. Instead I should dig a well. I don't have much land and don't like the cost of that. My neighbors use the lake water year round but their line runs underneath the lake floor and pops up at a deeper depth, preventing any icing.

Question: Does anyone have any personal experience or advice on how to remedy this situation? Am I not allowed to dig the line into the lake floor? Will heat tape of some sort work? What option do I have?

I'd rather not dig a well, becuase aside from cost, I know my neighbors in the area have had water quality issues and Lake Waukewan is as clean and I know what I'd be getting.

Thanks to all.

[Pricestavern]

I believe there's a post in here somewhere in which a member described running a wire down the intake line which acted as a heating element, keeping the water inside liquid.


Searching the forum for "water line freezing" brought back some information: www.tycothermal.com

Also Googled and found: https://www.heatersplus.com/pipes.html

[SAB1]

Is the house sitting on a foundation or up on piers? If up on piers it can also be a real challenge to keep the line from freezing where it comes out of the ground and into the house if you are living there and pulling water through the pipe frequently. You definitely need a heating wire run down through the pipe.

[correira99]

The house is sitting on piers. I have Gilford Well pricing out the heat tape insert for the pipe. Hope that'll do the trick!

[LIforrelaxin]

FLL where are you..... I know you faced this battle and told us all about it....

[SAB1]

Probably a function of how often you would be there using the camp and how well you insulate pipe where it comes above ground and into the house. I had the same setup at my place when I bought it. The woman that owned it had the heated wire in the line and she also had hay bales all around the house. When it got cold (single numbers during the day) she had do leave the water on in the sink ( steady drip) when she went to work. Otherwise it would freeze. If I wasn't there daily in dead of winter I would be nervous it would freeze.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by correira99

Am I not allowed to dig the line into the lake floor? Will heat tape of some sort work? What option do I have? I'd rather not dig a well, becuase aside from cost, I know my neighbors in the area have had water quality issues and Lake Waukewan is as clean and I know what I'd be getting. Thanks to all.

The lake's "floor" is retreating as the Winter season approaches; still, you'd be treading on thin ice with state agencies. Instead, I'd suggest using BIG rocks to press the waterline against the lake's floor.

While a heat strip will work, it'll quit when an ice storm causes power lines to drop. It could take days to satisfactorily clear the waterline of ice—plus, depending on the waterline's manufacture, there's risk of a leak.

If you have a "Ice-Eater" at the dock, position it so it will shift "warm" lake water to the shoreline entry of your waterline. If the waterline part of your lot has a slope to it, I'd go with the "low tech" they use in Florida.

In Florida, citrus trees benefit from a "low tech" coating of ice from sprinklers. Why? The ice jacket keeps even lower temperatures from affecting the fruit's overall quality. The fruit has sugars within to prevent a solid freeze; nonetheless, any frozen part will ruin the fruit for market.

If you've got someone there with a shovel, first, have them "lose" that loop, as it's interfering with a natural "thermo-syphoning". The new section will need insulation, so connect the "new" ends with a larger diameter plastic waterline, and insulate that with still more plastic. (BIG water line or PVC stuffed with "Great Stuff"). There are enormous adapters available, but don't use metal. Protect the waterline from wakes driving it against shoreline rocks, by putting a BIG rock on it as a "strain relief".

I'd arrange a tarp to collect water atop the waterline all the way up to the house. On a good night for freezing temperatures—usually includes a clear sky—spray or drip with a garden hose overnight(s) until you get a solid surface of ice down to the water's edge.

Continue to use household water, as the "warm" water from the lake will melt a pocket of insulating air within your new "ice floe". Due to water temperature differences, there would also be a small amount of mixing of warm and cold waters within the pipe, with which, the larger new waterline section will assist.

FLL, are you taking notes?



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[tis]

We have lake water and it has never frozen. Our pipe goes out through the edge of the beach (where it is buried) and is simply held down by cement blocks in the lake. I would never ever give up the lake water. I love it.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by tis

We have lake water and it has never frozen. Our pipe goes out through the edge of the beach (where it is buried) and is simply held down by cement blocks in the lake. I would never ever give up the lake water. I love it.

Do you keep your home on the Lake open year round or do you close it up?

[tis]

Originally Posted by Rusty

Do you keep your home on the Lake open year round or do you close it up?

It is heated year round.

[fatlazyless]

Gilford Well sells a water line set-up for drawing water from a lake, all year round .... made in Ontario.....originally by Pyrotenax....and the name may have been changed to Tyco because Tyco bought out Pyrotenax.

In 1992 a 125' x 1 1/4" black high pressure poly tube with a heat wire inside and a thermostat control cost me $1050. The instructions say to bury it just two inches below the ground and to dig the smallest trench as needed to bury the poly-tube. When crossing the rocky embankment, it says to slide the 1 1/4' tube down through a 2' diameter rigid white pvc pipe to protect it from the wave action and the cooling effect of the wind.

With shopping around one may be able to get it for much less than $1050, as that seemed like a very high price back in 1992 but I needed one and Gilford Well had the correct length I needed. Now, with google, one can probably get it for less?

I installed it in two afternoons in November, 1992, and it continues to work perfect to this day with no maintenance needed ....... how's that for a good record! Maybe once, the $30 brass stop valve down at the lower end needed replacement.

It draws 888-watts, and requires a 220-volt hook-up. One winter on about January 10, I forgot to turn on the circuit breaker so the line froze up, but the 1 1/4"diameter line only expanded without cracking, and was back in working order two days later, after the heat wire had melted the ice inside. Supposedly, the 1 1/4" diameter x 125' poly tube is a high pressure black cpvc than can expand if the water inside freezes up, as opposed to cracking the black poly tube. The small red thermostat light comes on/off depending on the outside temperature as determined by the thermostat setting and heat sensor.

The 39-gal vertical water tank, 1/2-hp pump, and 4"x6"" waterline thermostat box with heat setting control for the water line lives in the kitchen, between the refrigerator and the kitchen counter with sink.....and after 23-years....it all seems like a super-duper set-up.......last thing I do before heading out the door and locking up.....is to shut off the ceiling light and pull the electric plug on the pump.

Do I drink the lake water, or use it for cooking; no, I do not ...... but I do use it for brushing my teeth ......... hmmmmm ....maybe that's my problem .........ugh and ho-ho-ho?

.............

Where's the town water here in the Town of Meredith? The closest fire hydrant is about five miles away, where Pleasant St turns into Meredith Neck Rd.

Will town water ever be extended these five miles down meredith neck? No, never, it will never happen. Considering the Meredith Neck Rd went from 1997 to October, 2015 between re-paving the road, which was done by the State of New Hampshire ..... that's about 18-years between re-paving.....and the road became a very rough road with potholes, bulges, cracks and missing pavement .... unless the State of NH installs a water system......then why would the Town of Meredith ever decide to extend town water way down meredith neck? Town water will never happen here......thank you very much.

For $0.25/gallon, the Gilford Hannaford has a water vending machine that is hooked up to Laconia city water, and this vending machine supposedly runs the water through a reverse osmosis process as well, and people use it to fill their 6-gallon, blue, lug-a-jugs and lug 'em out to their Winnipesaukee island paradise, out on Mink Island, or someplace. Lugging the water becomes a standard routine and even a fun necessity ....... hmmmm? ........ so what's in that Laconia water?
............

So, what's the biggest contaminant in the lake? Probably, it is the ducks and the geese. These large birds produce a lot of duck/geese poop. If you saw how much one duck/goose makes, you would probably be surprised .....it's a lot of poop. This time of year, the ducks dive for acorns falling from an over-hanging oak tree, and the mallards will swallow an acorn without chewing it up. Believe that all or most of the silt, some is suspended in the water, and some settles to the bottom, comes from the duck/geese poop?

Just for fun.....if you want to feed the geese.....the geese just love www.cheezit.com, and the ducks love cheez-its too.....must be the salty, cheesy taste.....and cheez-its will float. Does this create orange goose poop ....... do not know?

[ApS]

Originally Posted by tis

We have lake water and it has never frozen. Our pipe goes out through the edge of the beach (where it is buried) and is simply held down by cement blocks in the lake. I would never ever give up the lake water. I love it.

I agree. My family members go to a lot of trouble to carry Wolfeboro town water from the folk's place to the cottage, in spite of the hazards of introduced trihalomethanes. The town provides water quality reports to users, which tell me there are too many harmful, chlorine-introduced, chemicals. A few years ago, Wolfeboro announced a plan to draw town drinking water from the lake. (To treat with chlorine).

​​​•​ ​​Any radioactive Radon gas that is naturally introduced (from granite) is rapidly diffused in lake water. Besides Radon, well-water has many issues—including odors, bacteria, and dropping levels that put accessibility at risk.

​​​•​ ​​Another factor to consider in pouring an above-ground jacket of ice above the lake water intake pipe is that those cold New Hampshire winters without snow will freeze-up septic tanks.

​​​•​ ​​The OP could consider an intriguing "pre-insulated" pipe available from Uponor:



It could assist in any natural thermosiphoning available.

​​​•​ ​​RV sites offer 12-volt heating, which could permit an automotive battery to keep the most-at-risk pipes clear of ice-up. A solar charger or dainty sailboat windmill-charger could be used to keep the battery charged.



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[ApS]

Expanding on an answer to a PM'd inquiry:

I've notified the Uponor company that their site isn't intuitive. Perhaps they want you to contact a saleman, which is easy.

The stuff (above) is expensive and very difficult to uncoil in cold weather. I have no experience with the pipe, but those who have are here:

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discuss...flex-by-uponor

Here's that specific double-insulated Uponor pipe site:

https://www.uponor.com/products/buil...r-service.aspx

What I had in mind was to have a constant flow (by small circulating pump) through an 8-foot pair of insulated pipes—at a location closest to the lake. The rest of the pipe to the house would have to be sufficiently buried. Source it near a dock bubbler you might have running. One or two one-way valves would be necessary.

The idea is provide a short, but non-freezing, water source buried near the lake. On the coldest nights, I'd suggest running a constant-run pump on house current. In-line bubbler switches to detect freezing temperatures are available at very reasonable cost.

A 12-volt pump for backup wouldn't be a bad idea; for that, I'd use a deep-cycle battery ($100, and windmill-charger—$300).



In any case, the circulation doesn't have to be "efficient"—just that it draws—and discharges—from the lake constantly in freezing weather.

—ApS


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