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Old 07-31-2021, 10:55 PM   #1
SailinAway
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Default Interacting with unvaccinated people when you must

After a year and a half with no interaction with my doctor, dentist, home maintenance workers, etc., I'm finding I can't postpone those things any longer. The question becomes, how to protect yourself from people you have to interact with.

Despite health privacy laws, I discovered that there's nothing preventing you from telling your medical practice that you only want to interact with people who are fully vaccinated. I did that and got a positive response---they selected a vaccinated nurse to do my vitals, and I verified that my doctor is fully vaccinated. If this is what you want, just ask for it. Then double check at your appointment to make sure people actually are vaccinated. I would not personally sit in a waiting room with a bunch of unvaccinated people. I waited outdoors.

Home maintenance workers are more difficult. A string of workers have been on my property and in my house over the last two weeks since my roof started leaking. Only two of them were vaccinated. The unvaccinated ones did not practice social distancing; they seemed oblivious to it. One said he didn't need to get vaccinated because he's young and healthy. Well I'm not young and I have a health condition, so I resent people who interact with the public, in their homes or at medical facilities, and refuse to get vaccinated.

Given how few available home maintenance workers there are, you may not have a choice about vaccinations. I would not allow an unvaccinated person in my house. Can you ask to see proof of vaccination? You're on shaky ground there if you need the service. They have plenty of other customers if you're not happy with them being unvaccinated.

It's easy to get lulled into thinking all is well because New Hampshire has a low number of infections right now. It's clear that there will be a 3rd year of the pandemic nationally. With only 58% of people in New Hampshire vaccinated, we WILL be impacted by Delta and there will be another wave. So take care if you must have workers on your property. .
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Old 08-01-2021, 01:36 AM   #2
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There’s no obligation to get vaccinated, so it’s nit a refusal if one opts not to get one. It’s more of a declination. Of course most people are oblivious to “social distancing.” The fad is long over. If one is vaccinated then the chance of getting infected is infinitesimal. Enjoy life again.


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Old 08-01-2021, 06:28 AM   #3
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You do what you can to minimize risk while accomplishing what you must.

No, the sky is not falling but neither is this the time for "la la la, don't worry, be happy".
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Old 08-01-2021, 10:06 AM   #4
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SailinAway, I don't want to get into the vaccine debate which is covered in other threads. But as LLL said you simply are not at risk regardless of who you come in contact with. If you are vaccinated, yes there's a slight chance you can get break-through covid, but you will have a few symptoms at most and basically zero chance of hospitalization or death. So by all means practice what feels right for you, which sounds like it's masking and social distancing when possible, but I wouldn't be concerned about the status of others in your daily life/travels/appointments.
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Old 08-01-2021, 10:29 AM   #5
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It's not your responsibility to worry about the unvaccinated. If the vaccine is available to them, it's up to them to get it or protect themselves.
The only issue would be if you are constantly around children that aren't old enough to get the vaccine yet.
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Old 08-01-2021, 10:55 AM   #6
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The nice thing about this country is we are not forced to do anything, well almost. I can appreciate your apprehension, but no one is under any obligation to tell you if they are vaccinated or not. I think for medical appointments you are fine asking if a provider is vaccinated and asking for someone else if they are not. Other professions, it's none of your business if they refuse to tell you.

Not going to doctor appointments seems like a bigger risk to your health than contracting the virus in my opinion.

Mask up, go to your appointments. When dealing with workers, keep your distance and again mask up. Leave the house when they come in, let them work, if you are worried. Beyond that there is little else you can do.

You don't say if you are vaccinated, if not, get it done.

The media coverage has been ridiculous on this pandemic, they scare people to see advertisements. Keep your distance, be safe.

Personally, I'm fully vaccinated, I avoid people who appear ill. I'm living my life and hoping the vaccine works while taking what I feel are reasonable precautions.
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Old 08-01-2021, 11:48 AM   #7
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Actually on any profession it would be.
As a consumer you can refuse to do business with anyone that you choose not to.
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Old 08-01-2021, 12:13 PM   #8
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Until a few days ago the scientific consensus was the advantage of vaccination
is:

1. You were extremely unlikely to die or become seriously ill in the unlikely event you contracted Covid.

2. If you contracted Covid it was very unlikely you would transmit it to anyone else.

Therefore: The vaccinated presented small risk to the unvaccinated.

With the overwhelming number of new cases with the delta variant, it seems that even the vaccinated, whether symptomatic or not, easily transmit it to the unvaccinated.

This has serious consequences:

A. #2 above is no longer true so the unvaccinated are at a markedly increased risk of contracting Covid AND therefore at an increased risk of dying. Almost all the recent Covid deaths have been in the unvaccinated.

B. The longer the pandemic exists, the more likely that an even more dangerous variant will arise with the possible consequence that the vaccines may be less effective.

C. Although NH is in a relatively good position now, largely as a result of the vaccination rate; this certainly doesn’t mean it can stay that way. The delta variant is much more transmissible.

So basically, the vaccinated have been protecting the unvaccinated and the unvaccinated continue to put everyone at risk. And probably the greatest risk is the rise of variants.

I realize that not everyone will agree with this and certainly stuff is arguable. And I do make generalizations. But my opinion is that the messaging about the pandemic has been lousy for multiple reasons. If this helps to clarify the situation a bit, it’s worth it.

And finally, the argument is made that the present death rate even for the unvaccinated is acceptable. Maybe, but the real risk is the rise of variants which is much more likely as time goes on and COULD produce a more deadly virus, which could have been prevented by more widespread vaccination.

Yes, there are a lot of “coulds” and “maybes” but predicting the future is tough and we have to rely on the best guesses made by the people ( not me) who have spent their lives dealing with these issues.
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Old 08-01-2021, 02:10 PM   #9
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Because it is a pandemic, it is reasonable to presume that variants from other parts of the globe will emerge and enter the US, NH, and even the Lakes Region.

Because those 12 and under cannot be currently vaccinated, we should expect parents and those in direct contact with children - even for short periods of time - to change their habits regardless of government mandates or media.

So we were never really going to vaccinate our way out of this.

My expectation is over time, COVID will react like the Flu. It will have annual variants, that some of us will get vaccinated against, others will take their chances... and tens of thousands of Americans will die from it or associated complications each year going forward.
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Old 08-01-2021, 02:31 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by John Mercier View Post
Because it is a pandemic, it is reasonable to presume that variants from other parts of the globe will emerge and enter the US, NH, and even the Lakes Region.

Because those 12 and under cannot be currently vaccinated, we should expect parents and those in direct contact with children - even for short periods of time - to change their habits regardless of government mandates or media.

So we were never really going to vaccinate our way out of this.

My expectation is over time, COVID will react like the Flu. It will have annual variants, that some of us will get vaccinated against, others will take their chances... and tens of thousands of Americans will die from it or associated complications each year going forward.
One problem that vaccine skeptics have in their thinking (and I'm not saying this includes you), is that they keep looking for sure things, and then do nothing when they realize there are no 100% guarantees.

So with that in mind--to a large extent we have already vaccinated our way our of this. We have hundreds of thousands of people saved over what would have happened, and we have much more safety/freedom from disease than we would have had.

As we move toward this being like the flu in some ways, we will be helped be higher vaccination levels and the kids getting vaccinated soon. Trials are underway now
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Old 08-01-2021, 02:34 PM   #11
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Wow what a great thread. Everyone has been respectful and everything everyone has written makes sense.


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Old 08-01-2021, 02:37 PM   #12
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This is in response to #9.


You may be correct or not. I don’t know. And perhaps we were never going to vaccinate our way out of this.

And yet had we allowed for the 10-15% of people who would never vaccinate, with an 85% vaccination rate we would be in a much better situation than we are at the moment. The flu vaccines almost never have attained the remarkable results obtained with the mRNA vaccines in Covid with the roughly 95% protection so far.

And even if you are correct we should be able to do better than the current vaccination rate.

On the other hand, the chicken pox vaccines have very high efficacy and it is not necessary to revaccinate.

Not all virus’ are the same and it is a mistake (and beyond my pay grade) to get involved. As far as messaging, IMO making a big deal by saying the delta variant is “as contagious as chicken pox” is stupid.

Most people alive have never seen a case of chicken pox and only the oldies (like me) remember that almost everybody got it. But it’s meaningless for most folks. Again, ineffectual messaging.
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Old 08-01-2021, 03:16 PM   #13
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One problem that vaccine skeptics have in their thinking (and I'm not saying this includes you), is that they keep looking for sure things, and then do nothing when they realize there are no 100% guarantees.

So with that in mind--to a large extent we have already vaccinated our way our of this. We have hundreds of thousands of people saved over what would have happened, and we have much more safety/freedom from disease than we would have had.

As we move toward this being like the flu in some ways, we will be helped be higher vaccination levels and the kids getting vaccinated soon. Trials are underway now
Not only did I get my vaccines, I get the flu vaccine every year and expect to get a COVID one like the flu.

My presumption is that new variants will emerge from other parts of the globe and sweep through just like the flu.

Being in what many consider a ''tourist'' area, I suspect that we will also deal with more of it than other areas.

40,000-50,000 Americans die from the flu each year... we have a vaccine... and still the death toll. The historic record is that we will never vaccinate our way out of this one. We'll see a decline in deaths and hospitalizations, but those that didn't get the ''message'' never will. And those that have, will get every booster - annual or otherwise.
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Old 08-01-2021, 03:34 PM   #14
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This is in response to #9.


You may be correct or not. I don’t know. And perhaps we were never going to vaccinate our way out of this.

And yet had we allowed for the 10-15% of people who would never vaccinate, with an 85% vaccination rate we would be in a much better situation than we are at the moment. The flu vaccines almost never have attained the remarkable results obtained with the mRNA vaccines in Covid with the roughly 95% protection so far.

And even if you are correct we should be able to do better than the current vaccination rate.

On the other hand, the chicken pox vaccines have very high efficacy and it is not necessary to revaccinate.

Not all virus’ are the same and it is a mistake (and beyond my pay grade) to get involved. As far as messaging, IMO making a big deal by saying the delta variant is “as contagious as chicken pox” is stupid.

Most people alive have never seen a case of chicken pox and only the oldies (like me) remember that almost everybody got it. But it’s meaningless for most folks. Again, ineffectual messaging.
I find that people think in egocentric terms. "NH has this vaccine rate", but no acknowledgement of the tourists from other areas that have lower vaccination rates. Not just US States, but even foreign countries.

If it could never jump from country to country - we might have a real chance. If it couldn't jump from state to state - probably even a better one.
But I even see people from other counties in NH will lower confirmed cases making bad presumptions that it can never get worse in those counties as people move from county to county.

If the virus can survive in a vaccinated person, as suggested, it can mutate. So vaccinating everyone doesn't stop the mutation equation like we first thought.

Some viruses are stable, one vaccination or infection that is fought off... and that is it. This one is not stable as of yet. But I think will go more the way of the flu than the common cold. The flu has several variants, and the common cold is impossible (at least to date) to vaccinate against because it mutates so much. The cold has lost most of its virulence... but the flu still has a strong history of complications leading to death.

We aren't seeing the estimated 675,000 that died from the 1918 flu on an annual basis, but forty to fifty thousand is still a pretty hefty amount of Americans every year.
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Old 08-01-2021, 04:09 PM   #15
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Don’t forget the tens of millions of people who got the virus and are now immune. They’re effectively vaccinated, if not even more protested.


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Old 08-01-2021, 04:23 PM   #16
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Don’t forget the tens of millions of people who got the virus and are now immune. They’re effectively vaccinated, if not even more protested.


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No one really knows how long the natural immunity lasts, but there is no evidence that it is “better” than the current vaccines. In fact, that is why the CDC recommends vaccination even after getting Covid as there seems to be a “supercharged” immune reaction after vaccination.

But, again, there is stuff that we don’t know for sure.
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Old 08-01-2021, 04:23 PM   #17
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The studies are showing less protection... not more.

https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/artic...infection.html
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Old 08-01-2021, 05:01 PM   #18
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You simply are not at risk regardless of who you come in contact with.
Three-quarters of the people infected in the current Provincetown outbreak were vaccinated.
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Old 08-01-2021, 05:17 PM   #19
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We can get infected.
We just have a much lower chance of being sick enough to be hospitalized or die.

There are some that are concerned that we will pass it on to the those that are not vaccinated... I especially worry about the children to young to get the vaccines.

So if your professional is vaccinated, they could still give it to you... but you would be unlikely to get sick or die. If your professional is not vaccinated, then you could give it to them, but their chances of being sick or dying is higher (much higher).
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Old 08-01-2021, 05:23 PM   #20
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Three-quarters of the people infected in the current Provincetown outbreak were vaccinated.
Yes--a great example of how vaccinated people still need to use common sense.

One important point often overlooked is the role social behavior may have played in P town, a place well known for bars and clubs packed with men looking to meet lots of new people. 87% of the infected were men.

Basically, these guys asked the vaccine to protect them in an extreme social situation.
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Old 08-01-2021, 06:03 PM   #21
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Three-quarters of the people infected in the current Provincetown outbreak were vaccinated.
Yes, but only ~5 of ~470 were hospitalized and 0 deaths—sounds like the vaccine worked perfectly!

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Old 08-05-2021, 05:41 AM   #22
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Arrow Meanwhile, Also Massachusetts...

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Yes, but only ~5 of ~470 were hospitalized and 0 deaths—sounds like the vaccine worked perfectly!
Could have been "syndemic", due Truvada. (Mentioned at Slate).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7165075/

But scared enough to cancel a 450-guest oceanfront birthday party on 30 acres of Martha's Vineyard island--or maybe the shortage of fossil fuel for those hundreds of private jets?

https://www.capeandislands.org/local...suspends-sales
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Old 08-05-2021, 11:11 AM   #23
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Could have been "syndemic", due Truvada. (Mentioned at Slate).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7165075/

But scared enough to cancel a 450-guest oceanfront birthday party on 30 acres of Martha's Vineyard island--or maybe the shortage of fossil fuel for those hundreds of private jets?

https://www.capeandislands.org/local...suspends-sales
Obama cancelled because he recognized it was just not a good look. I'm kind of surprised it took him so long to realize it.

On whether or not what he was planning was safe--I would not attend a 500 person party myself, even outdoors. OTOH, Massachusetts continues to believe that it's safe for the Red Sox to invite 30,000 people every night, so this is obviously much less risky than the current professional guidelines.
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Old 08-06-2021, 12:33 AM   #24
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Give it up. He thinks that ''Operation Warp Speed'' actually developed a vaccine.
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Old 08-06-2021, 06:16 AM   #25
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Arrow The Final Chapter on Covid Is Yet to Be Written...

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Wow what a great thread. Everyone has been respectful and everything everyone has written makes sense.
Check again...
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Old 08-06-2021, 06:57 AM   #26
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But scared enough to cancel a 450-guest oceanfront birthday party on 30 acres of Martha's Vineyard island--or maybe the shortage of fossil fuel for those hundreds of private jets?
[/url]
The working story line is the party was "scaled back" not cancelled.

I'm sure if you go to Nantucket Airport on Saturday you will see many of the "beautiful people" get out of their jets to be driven to the party.

Since it is an "outdoor party" obviously they can't go into Obama's house (wink wink)and will enjoy using the porta potties in his yard.
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Old 08-06-2021, 07:28 AM   #27
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The working story line is the party was "scaled back" not cancelled.

I'm sure if you go to Nantucket Airport on Saturday you will see many of the "beautiful people" get out of their jets to be driven to the party.

Since it is an "outdoor party" obviously they can't go into Obama's house (wink wink)and will enjoy using the porta potties in his yard.
Rules for thee, but not for me. Looks like a “super-spreader” event in the making! Hypocrites…..
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Old 08-06-2021, 07:43 AM   #28
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No one really knows how long the natural immunity lasts, but there is no evidence that it is “better” than the current vaccines. In fact, that is why the CDC recommends vaccination even after getting Covid as there seems to be a “supercharged” immune reaction after vaccination.

But, again, there is stuff that we don’t know for sure.
That is INcorrect. Infected people only have antibodies that offer immunity for X months (probably about 3). This is why the CDC recommends those who have been infected to get vaccinated after being tested for antibodies.
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Old 08-06-2021, 09:43 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Newbiesaukee
No one really knows how long the natural immunity lasts, but there is no evidence that it is “better” than the current vaccines. In fact, that is why the CDC recommends vaccination even after getting Covid as there seems to be a “supercharged” immune reaction after vaccination.

But, again, there is stuff that we don’t know for sure.

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That is INcorrect. Infected people only have antibodies that offer immunity for X months (probably about 3). This is why the CDC recommends those who have been infected to get vaccinated after being tested for antibodies.
That's what Newbiesaukee said, you must have misread his post.
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Old 08-06-2021, 10:19 AM   #30
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That is INcorrect. Infected people only have antibodies that offer immunity for X months (probably about 3). This is why the CDC recommends those who have been infected to get vaccinated after being tested for antibodies.
I do not understand how what you are saying is essentially different from what I am saying. Please clarify.

Does not the CDC recommend that even people who have had Covid should be vaccinated which was my point?
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Old 08-06-2021, 10:49 AM   #31
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40,000-50,000 Americans die from the flu each year... we have a vaccine... and still the death toll. The historic record is that we will never vaccinate our way out of this one. We'll see a decline in deaths and hospitalizations, but those that didn't get the ''message'' never will. And those that have, will get every booster - annual or otherwise.
The challenge with discussing “flu” deaths and vaccination is that there is no single “flu” vaccine. There are 4 types of influenza viruses (A,B,C,&D) Influenza D only effects animals. A,B, & C effect people with A having the highest chance for severe illness. Each virus type has many strains. Every year the influenza vaccine is re-engineered to target the most likely Influenza A virus strains for the upcoming year. It doesn’t even cover all of the a Influenza A strains. The strains chosen are based upon the prevalence of those strains (variants) in the population. So, even people who get the flu vaccine can contract a strain of Influenza A that the vaccine does not protect against. They can also contract B&C. Unfortunately, COVID with its developing variants may become the same battle. The more we can stop the spread of COVID through vaccination and other means, the less variants we are likely to see.


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Old 08-06-2021, 06:56 PM   #32
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Update: After I developed possible covid symptoms my doctor had me tested yesterday based on my exposure to unvaccinated workers on my property. I was lucky and tested negative. So I say again, please be cautious about your exposure to people you must have contact with even if you're vaccinated, especially if you're over 65 or have other health risks.
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Old 08-06-2021, 07:16 PM   #33
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The challenge with discussing “flu” deaths and vaccination is that there is no single “flu” vaccine. There are 4 types of influenza viruses (A,B,C,&D) Influenza D only effects animals. A,B, & C effect people with A having the highest chance for severe illness. Each virus type has many strains. Every year the influenza vaccine is re-engineered to target the most likely Influenza A virus strains for the upcoming year. It doesn’t even cover all of the a Influenza A strains. The strains chosen are based upon the prevalence of those strains (variants) in the population. So, even people who get the flu vaccine can contract a strain of Influenza A that the vaccine does not protect against. They can also contract B&C. Unfortunately, COVID with its developing variants may become the same battle. The more we can stop the spread of COVID through vaccination and other means, the less variants we are likely to see.


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Since the vaccinated can carry and spread the virus... it would only be a matter of time before a variant breaks the immunity. The question at that time, how contagious and pathogenic the variant is.

And though SARS-Cov only has two identified strains that attack humans, instead of the four for Influenza, just like Influenza A... SARS-Cov2 is the one that has gone pandemic (SARS-Cov1 being too pathogenic to really take a foothold). SARS-Cov2 now has several strains like Influenza A, and thus I suspect will in the end need a newly engineered vaccine each season.
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Old 08-08-2021, 07:53 AM   #34
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Not to beat a wounded horse, but the subject is important:

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infecti...9vaccine/93940
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Old 08-08-2021, 08:36 AM   #35
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Unhappy Paywall...

Paywall. (Guess I'd been reading here earlier).

Yeah, it's free, but I don't wish to register at still another site.

Got a "Cliff Notes" version?

BTW: Will the CDC allow its employees to skip the vaccine?

Last edited by ApS; 08-08-2021 at 08:41 AM. Reason: CDC poll of its workers/employees...
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Old 08-08-2021, 09:15 AM   #36
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https://nhjournal.com/after-months-o...jects-mandate/
Concerned parents must now ask if their child’s teacher is vaccinated


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Old 08-08-2021, 09:50 AM   #37
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Paywall. (Guess I'd been reading here earlier).

Yeah, it's free, but I don't wish to register at still another site.

Got a "Cliff Notes" version?

BTW: Will the CDC allow its employees to skip the vaccine?
If it’s my link I apologize about paywall. Basically, more evidence that people who had Covid will essentially double their immunity if they get vaccinated.
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Old 08-08-2021, 10:32 AM   #38
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https://federalnewsnetwork.com/workf...ng-biden-says/


CDC are federal employees.
So they fall under this guideline.
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Old 08-08-2021, 07:13 PM   #39
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All you free thinkers, how the unwashed who don’t get the jab. How come not one of you are upset that Biden has not closed the border, allowing the last figure I saw 150 to 200 thousand illegals crossing the border every month, giving them transportation in military aircraft and private buses to cities in the heartland. Why worry, apparently he’s not, Covid can’t be that big a deal.
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Old 08-08-2021, 08:14 PM   #40
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Arrow Difficult to Leave Politics Out of Covid-19

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All you free thinkers, how the unwashed who don’t get the jab. How come not one of you are upset that Biden has not closed the border, allowing the last figure I saw 150 to 200 thousand illegals crossing the border every month, giving them transportation in military aircraft and private buses to cities in the heartland. Why worry, apparently he’s not, Covid can’t be that big a deal.
I'd give you a "thanks", but this information has already appeared here. Mentions of politics also causes threads to be locked, as "strict" politics is not desired here.

TO ALL, I'd suggest talking around sensitive subjects.

For example, I made a reference to the hypocrisy of a certain birthday party—without mentioning names. When the discussion continued and named the party, the thread got locked. I believe this is in accord with the Webmaster's philosophy. (Who runs the show).

One case is "making the rounds", but doesn't appear in the New York Times. We'll have to settle for lesser sites (some cancelled by Bing), but where enough fragments appear below to figure out what the fuss is all about:
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Old 08-08-2021, 11:39 PM   #41
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All you free thinkers, how the unwashed who don’t get the jab. How come not one of you are upset that Biden has not closed the border, allowing the last figure I saw 150 to 200 thousand illegals crossing the border every month, giving them transportation in military aircraft and private buses to cities in the heartland. Why worry, apparently he’s not, Covid can’t be that big a deal.
I'm not a proponent of Engels; but as long as you are willing to suffer the results of your actions... do as you please.
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Old 08-09-2021, 08:42 AM   #42
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I thought all this fake Covid virus was propagated by the Democrats and main street media to get Trump out of office. It was just an ordinary flue that would be gone once the democrats took office.
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