Go Back   Winnipesaukee Forum > Winnipesaukee Forums > General Discussion
Home Forums Gallery Webcams Blogs YouTube Channel Classifieds Calendar Register FAQDonate Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-11-2018, 08:23 PM   #1
GreggPro
Junior Member
 
GreggPro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 9
Thanks: 12
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Post property and water front line laws

Can someone please advice me where I can locate the laws for property
/ water lines can be found. I'm looking pacifically the laws on how close can an abutter can dock a boat to your property line. I have a neighbor on both sides. their docks have been there for some years. However they are within 2 feet of my property line. if they dock a boat on my side of their dock its on my water property. What can I do?

Last edited by GreggPro; 07-11-2018 at 09:21 PM.
GreggPro is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to GreggPro For This Useful Post:
Stevebvt (07-19-2018)
Old 07-11-2018, 08:54 PM   #2
Sinclair
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: N/A
Posts: 36
Thanks: 2
Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts
Default

Moorings require a permit, per https://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/...rings/faq.html

The mooring must have a decal on it; otherwise, it's not properly permitted and can be removed.

This article implies that abutters may object to a permitted mooring: https://law.justia.com/codes/new-ham...ection-270-61/

Perhaps your best course of action is to contact Marine Patrol.
Sinclair is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Sinclair For This Useful Post:
GreggPro (07-11-2018)
Old 07-11-2018, 08:56 PM   #3
Sinclair
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: N/A
Posts: 36
Thanks: 2
Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts
Default

If your neighbor is installing a proper dock, this document nicely covers the rights of abutters: https://www.des.nh.gov/organization/...ents/wb-19.pdf
Sinclair is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Sinclair For This Useful Post:
GreggPro (07-11-2018)
Old 07-11-2018, 09:44 PM   #4
GreggPro
Junior Member
 
GreggPro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 9
Thanks: 12
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinclair View Post
If your neighbor is installing a proper dock, this document nicely covers the rights of abutters: https://www.des.nh.gov/organization/...ents/wb-19.pdf
Their docks are both existing...
GreggPro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2018, 10:14 PM   #5
P-3 Guy
Senior Member
 
P-3 Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Under the former KNHZ bounce pattern
Posts: 476
Thanks: 3
Thanked 207 Times in 110 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreggPro View Post
if they dock a boat on my side of their dock its on my water property. What can I do?
The water isn't your property.
P-3 Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 07-12-2018, 03:23 AM   #6
Lakeboater
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 391
Thanks: 20
Thanked 130 Times in 93 Posts
Default

I seem to recall that an abutter couldn't block the waterfront of his neighbor similar to a mooring not being in front of a neighbors property. Are these neighbors using both sides of their docks? On a regular basis?
Lakeboater is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Lakeboater For This Useful Post:
GreggPro (07-13-2018)
Old 07-12-2018, 04:51 AM   #7
TiltonBB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Gilford, NH and Florida
Posts: 2,880
Thanks: 637
Thanked 2,146 Times in 893 Posts
Default

With an existing dock, you can follow the imaginary line that extends from your property line into the water to determine how much boat can be at the dock.

In theory, if your property line is at an angle, getting wider at the shoreline, you could end up with a boat docked in front of your neighbor's property. If the line was at a right angle to the shore going straight out you would have less area to dock a boat.
TiltonBB is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to TiltonBB For This Useful Post:
GreggPro (07-13-2018)
Old 07-12-2018, 05:50 AM   #8
Sinclair
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: N/A
Posts: 36
Thanks: 2
Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TiltonBB View Post
With an existing dock, you can follow the imaginary line that extends from your property line into the water to determine how much boat can be at the dock.



In theory, if your property line is at an angle, getting wider at the shoreline, you could end up with a boat docked in front of your neighbor's property. If the line was at a right angle to the shore going straight out you would have less area to dock a boat.


Yes. Page 3 of the PDF I posted has a nice diagram of this.
Sinclair is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Sinclair For This Useful Post:
GreggPro (07-13-2018)
Old 07-12-2018, 06:03 AM   #9
Seaplane Pilot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,176
Thanks: 659
Thanked 943 Times in 368 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMI Guy View Post
The water isn't your property.
The water might not be his property, but he has certain rights to the water in front of his shoreline property that the public does not have.
Seaplane Pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Seaplane Pilot For This Useful Post:
GreggPro (07-13-2018)
Old 07-12-2018, 06:12 AM   #10
Sinclair
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: N/A
Posts: 36
Thanks: 2
Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot View Post
The water might not be his property, but he has certain rights to the water in front of his shoreline property that the public does not have.


Yes, and to take the point further the lake isn't "everyone's" property or "our" property -- it's the State of New Hampshire's property, like a state park. The State gets to make whatever rules it wants so long as they are consistent with its being held for the public good. The distinction is important because it avoids the "tragedy of the commons" -- and rules to protect landowners from the public or each other is an important aspect of that.
Sinclair is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Sinclair For This Useful Post:
GreggPro (07-13-2018)
Old 07-12-2018, 07:05 AM   #11
upthesaukee
Senior Member
 
upthesaukee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Alton Bay
Posts: 5,544
Blog Entries: 2
Thanks: 2,393
Thanked 1,918 Times in 1,061 Posts
Default Where I dock my boat

My friend bought property on Winnipesaukee, and made application for a new seasonal dock. As part of the approval, looking out at the lake, the dock had to remain 25 ft from the extended property line on the right side of his property looking out.

Seemed reasonable to him, and we have followed this for the last three years. Keeps everyone happy.

Dave
__________________
I Live Here... I am always UPTHESAUKEE !!!!
upthesaukee is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to upthesaukee For This Useful Post:
Stevebvt (07-19-2018)
Old 07-12-2018, 08:36 AM   #12
Descant
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Merrimack and Welch Island
Posts: 4,003
Thanks: 1,203
Thanked 1,498 Times in 975 Posts
Default Laws and rules

This is a complicated issue with other threads and varying accuracy of information. Generally, temporary seasonal docks fall under a "Permit By Notification" process. Regulations ("Rules") have some variables based on shore frontage and in some cases, the rule can be waived with written permission of the abutting landowner. In other cases, a dock can be closer to the 20 ft setback if it is an existing structure (grandfathered).
Marine Patrol has little or nothing to do with this issue--it all goes through the Department of Environmental Services Wetlands Bureau. You can call them at 271-4067, although at this time of year, they may be in the field.
If a boat, float, mooring, etc. presents a hazardous condition or impedes navigation, there may be an issue for Marine Patrol. Best solution seems to be for neighbors to work things out. Maybe you could offer to help move your neighbor's temporary dock over a few feet? If it is permitted, these issues were considered in the permit process. DES is very thorough in these considerations and they consult with MP if necessary, before issuing a permit. In any event, call DES. They are very helpful.
Descant is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Descant For This Useful Post:
GreggPro (07-12-2018)
Old 07-12-2018, 08:36 AM   #13
thinkxingu
Senior Member
 
thinkxingu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 5,939
Thanks: 1,152
Thanked 1,959 Times in 1,210 Posts
Default

It seems clear to me that the neighbor's boat, if crossing over the extension of your property line into the water, would be infringing on your rights.

It also seems clear to me that it shouldn't be a big deal in MOST cases, especially if past practice, which it sounds like it is.

Why are you asking? What's changed?

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk
thinkxingu is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to thinkxingu For This Useful Post:
GreggPro (07-12-2018)
Old 07-12-2018, 09:32 AM   #14
Onshore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 500
Thanks: 12
Thanked 400 Times in 143 Posts
Default

In 1998 the following language was added to RSA 482-A:

"RSA 482-A:3 Excavating and Dredging Permit; Certain Exemptions. –XIII. (a) All boat docking facilities shall be at least 20 feet from an abutting property line in non-tidal waters, and at least 20 feet in tidal waters.
(b) Boat docking facilities may be perpendicular or parallel to the shoreline or extend at some other angle into a water body, depending on the needs of the landowners, factors related to safe navigation, and the difficulty of construction. However, any boat secured to such a dock shall not extend beyond the extension of the abutter's property line.
(c) Notwithstanding the provisions of subparagraph (a), boat docking facilities may be located closer than 20 feet from an abutter's property line in non-tidal waters and 20 feet in tidal waters, if the owner of the boat docking facility obtains the written consent of the abutting property owner. Such consent shall be signed by all parties, notarized and filed with the dock application with the department of environmental services.
(d) Abutters may apply for a common dock on or near their common property line. Any application for a common dock shall be accompanied by a notarized written agreement which shall be signed by all property owners. Such agreement shall be filed at the registry of deeds and attached to the deed of each property owner."

Docks installed after 1998 must therefore be 20 feet off the imaginary extension of the property line unless a signed notarized waiver of the setback is obtained from the affected abutter.

Prior to 1998 the setback for docks was established in the Administrative Rules adopted under RSA 482-A by the Wetlands Bureau. Between 1992 and 1998 the rules required a 20 ft. setback. I do know that during the late 70's and through the 80's the setback was only 10 feet by Rule. Sorry but I haven't had time to pin down the exact date of the change from 10 ft. to 20 ft.

Docks that were first installed prior to 1969 would not have been subject to a setback requirement.

Please note that the law specifies that the setback is from the imaginary extension of the property line meaning it continues over the water along the same heading of the property line. Thus the extension is frequently not perpendicular to shore.
Onshore is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Onshore For This Useful Post:
Dad sold the C * C (07-12-2018), GreggPro (07-12-2018), MeredithMan (07-13-2018), upthesaukee (07-12-2018)
Old 07-13-2018, 09:18 AM   #15
MeredithMan
Senior Member
 
MeredithMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Bedford, NH; Meredith, NH
Posts: 862
Thanks: 233
Thanked 768 Times in 302 Posts
Default Follow-up question to Shore Things...

….Thank you for the great info in your post on the setback rules. One follow-up question:

Suppose Abutter A signs off on the neighbor's dock being less than 20 feet from the property line. Then, a few years later, Abutter A sells his property and Abutter A1 is now the owner. A1 then says, "hey, I didn't agree to that....that was the previous owner" Does the agreement stay with the property, or does it cease when the abutter who signed it sells?

Thanks!
MeredithMan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MeredithMan For This Useful Post:
VitaBene (07-13-2018)
Old 07-13-2018, 09:27 AM   #16
swnoel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 527
Thanks: 83
Thanked 194 Times in 118 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeredithMan View Post
….Thank you for the great info in your post on the setback rules. One follow-up question:

Suppose Abutter A signs off on the neighbor's dock being less than 20 feet from the property line. Then, a few years later, Abutter A sells his property and Abutter A1 is now the owner. A1 then says, "hey, I didn't agree to that....that was the previous owner" Does the agreement stay with the property, or does it cease when the abutter who signed it sells?

Thanks!
Seems like it may become attached to a deed... could be considered a recorded encroachment to the property. May become part of the property. That's why it is critical that everything is divulged by the seller to any buyer, but that doesn't make the buyer not perform their own due diligence. Then again it may only be a recorded agreement between 2 parties... time to consult an attorney.
swnoel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2018, 09:48 AM   #17
Onshore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 500
Thanks: 12
Thanked 400 Times in 143 Posts
Default

This is an interesting question that we have not been forced to answer yet. DES takes the position that the docking facility was legally installed and therefore can remain. The buyer of the abutting property bought into a pre-existing "knowable" situation. That said, the permit for the dock would have been recorded with the deed on which the dock is installed, not the abutting property, so this is not something that would show up in a title search. If dock in question is a permanent dock then it is a situation that should have been completely visible to the buyer beforehand. If the dock is seasonal and the property is sold over the off-season or if there is a recent, active permit and construction hasn't occurred yet then the buyer might be in for an unpleasant surprise. DES has received some conditional waivers and in those instances the permit for the dock should contain Specific Conditions that reflect the conditional waiver granted by the abutter.
Onshore is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Onshore For This Useful Post:
MeredithMan (07-13-2018)
Old 07-13-2018, 10:39 AM   #18
MeredithMan
Senior Member
 
MeredithMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Bedford, NH; Meredith, NH
Posts: 862
Thanks: 233
Thanked 768 Times in 302 Posts
Default Thanks

Our abutting neighbor has owned his place probably 30+ years. We bought about 5 yrs ago. His dock is definitely not 20' back from the prop line. I don't know if he had an agreement with the previous owner of my place, who also had been there many years. It's not worth making an issue over, because he's a great neighbor and has done a lot to help us out in the time we've lived there, but it is always good to know what the official rules are. Thank you!
MeredithMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2018, 07:53 AM   #19
summah1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 6
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreggPro View Post
Can someone please advice me where I can locate the laws for property
/ water lines can be found. I'm looking pacifically the laws on how close can an abutter can dock a boat to your property line. I have a neighbor on both sides. their docks have been there for some years. However they are within 2 feet of my property line. if they dock a boat on my side of their dock its on my water property. What can I do?
Rich people problem. Don't stir the pot and enjoy the 8 weeks of summer. Pray you are healthy and happy everyday forward.
summah1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2018, 01:30 PM   #20
MeredithMan
Senior Member
 
MeredithMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Bedford, NH; Meredith, NH
Posts: 862
Thanks: 233
Thanked 768 Times in 302 Posts
Default Disagree with your assumption....

Quote:
Originally Posted by summah1 View Post
Rich people problem. Don't stir the pot and enjoy the 8 weeks of summer. Pray you are healthy and happy everyday forward.
So with this logic, would we say that a property line issue in a crappy trailer park is a poor person's problem? It's got nothing to do with rich or poor--the issue is defining the law and/or rules and then it's up to the aggrieved party to decide if he/she wants to make an issue of it. Are the neighbors that are over the prop line nice people, or are they jerks? That may well be the deciding factor...

As the parent of a cancer survivor who had his childhood robbed from him, I do totally agree with you to be thankful for your health and to not sweat the small stuff.
MeredithMan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to MeredithMan For This Useful Post:
chipj29 (07-19-2018), Newbiesaukee (07-18-2018), noreast (07-18-2018)
Old 07-18-2018, 07:12 PM   #21
Descant
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Merrimack and Welch Island
Posts: 4,003
Thanks: 1,203
Thanked 1,498 Times in 975 Posts
Default

It seems that this question comes up when there is a property transfer, i.e. a buyer has expectations that did not cause a dispute between previous landowners/abutters. If that is correct, the new landowner should consider whether he did sufficient due diligence, or the existing landowner took advantage of the land transfer and moved his dock. My guess is, the "new" person made, or was "led" to make some assumptions that were not fully founded. These questions do not seem to arise until there is a property sale.
Descant is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.

This page was generated in 0.23602 seconds