Duncan Press vs Bizer charts

[pmj]

I just went to the banner ad for Duncan Press . They have charts of lake Winnipesaukee as does Bizer. I just bought a Bizer chart. Does anyone have both to be able to decipher the differences ?

pmj

[fatlazyless]

Are charts all that necessary out on the Big lake? Let's face it; you buzz around the lake, go here, go there, go everywhere. Trees, trees, and more trees, a big long wall of green with every buildable spot all built out. Stay out in the hot sun for 45 minutes and get bounced around by the ever-present boat waves and guess what? Does it really matter where you are, out on the Big lake because after about 45 minutes it all just becomes one great big blur; horizon, trees, water, waves and boats. Just so long as you stay 150' away, from everthing else. Safety Rule #1, the real Winni boater will never carry a map or a cell phone or a gps. Trial & error is best.

[Island-Ho]

They may not be necessary, but I've seen an awful lot of people that should have looked at one before they hit that rock outside the marked channel/route on the chart. Come to think of it, a chart might not have helped them at all. They obviously couldn't tell a red top from a black top buoy, or had no idea which way was north.

[Merrymeeting]

pmj,

To try and give you a more serious answer, you are asking a "religious" issue. Most here would suggest that Bizer is the reference for the lake and that's all you need. Other opinions may vary.

My view...if you have Bizer, you're all set.

[pmj]

Well, I am coming to the lake from sailing on the ocean with a boat with a 5ft draft. We had lots of ledges where I sailed. I know people with sailboats on the lake who have hit rocks. I want to be a prepared boater educated to the lake...my draft with board down will be 4 feet and I want to know where every rock is. I think that powerboats don't have to worry quite as much with shallower drafts.

pmj

[fatlazyless]

A five foot draft and how long is the boat? About five years ago, some night motor boater crashed into the only dock on Eagle Island and damaged a couple of docked boats plus his boat. When the Marine Patrol or Fire Dept or some rescue dept got there, he say's, according to my gps, "this island should not be here," no kidding. Probably, he wasn't using the infinitly accurate Bizer gps!
Hey, everyone gets lost out there & resorts to dead reckoning, as in I reckon that now I am lost so what the H do I do?

[pmj]

The boat was 28 ft and had a 5ft draft. We sold that boat and now our new to us boat is 21ft and 1'11".

i promise not to run into any invisible islands

I can't wait to find out where these non islands are.

pmj

[DRH]

We've used Bizer charts for years, and we now use their chart as well as their C-Map chip in our GPS. I think Bizer's accuracy is unsurpassed.

[Island Girl]

I too use Bizer's charts. I buy at least one new chart each year to support the business. The most fun, however, is to have the Bizer chart on CD. When I want to venture an unfamiliar part of the lake I blow up those sections, (especially those with a lot of markers) and print them for the ride. It is easy to navigate when I can actually see the chart ( I am nearsighted and farsighted).

I do have some older Duncan Old Green Maps since they were the first ones I had before I found Bizer. I find the newer Duncan maps more difficult to read.

I keep at least two laminated charts in the boat at all times, one for me and one for the front passenger. My passengers seem to enjoy helping navigate and it makes it easier on me.

Some day I hope to have a GPS that will take the cmap chip. Its on my wish list.

[Rattlesnake Gal]

My husband prefers the Duncan Press (green) map to the Bizer map because he feels it is easier to read. I think the green one looks prettier too. As you can see, we have both. It has been great having the two maps. Another person can learn along side the skipper and I find it nice when we have guests, we aren’t playing pass the map. Another issue for you might be where the map is folded, as each company has a different layout. Does a key location for you fall on the fold? That could make you crazy. Both maps will get you where you are going, so either way you will be fine. I think it will come down to personal preference. You can always do what we did and buy both! Supporting local businesses/sponsors to this site is a good thing. Here is a small sample to see how they differ. Good luck.

[chocophile]

I like the Bizer chart best and own several past editions. However, I am concerned that successive editions over the past few years have added so much information that it is getting more difficult to read "at a glance", especially while navigating and dodging those reckless speed-demon sailboats . Rattlesnake Gal's images of both charts highlight this point quite well: some parts of the chart are now difficult to read.

This year Bizer introduced a pocket paper edition which has less detail and (in my opinion) is easier to read, albeit smaller.

Bizer, I suggest two editions for the large map also:
1) Bizer Pro: with all the detail you can pack onto the chart
2) Bizer Lite: with less detail for the more casual user, but still the same outstanding accuracy

Again, I like the Bizer chart very much. (At my suggestion, he even added a rock that we "discovered" near Black Island a few years ago.)

[Coastal Laker]

The Bizer chart is more closely related to a regular blue water chart than the Duncan press chart is. My preference is the Bizer for that reason. The Green Duncan chart frustrates me when I go back and forth between the lake and the coast. I like consistency (if you can have any). The way that markers and lights are displayed is the key item for me.

[KBoater]

I have an old Duncan map and a newer Bizer one. I found that on both maps which have been exposed to sun the the red "dots"/markers fade in the sun and are hard to read. I guess I will have to break down and buy a new one next season. Winnie Diver will tell you that I need a map and all the help I can get.

[KTO]

I've always had the green one. The Bizer is so tough to read! The colors on the green one also seems more "attractive" to the user. Plus, if you have a green one with a thick plastic cover (do they make those anymore?), it makes it easier to handle.

Oh, and whoever said that their map "faded" in the sun, you should try putting it in your glove compartment. It is still easy to get to, and you can leave it out as long as you need to! I know we've done this for the past four years with our map, and it looks as if in mint condition (minus the crinkles! )

[osterber]

I very much respect all of the work that Bizer has done, and I think they are definitely going out of their way to strive for a very very technically accurate map. And the Bizer map is much truer to coastal charts.

That being said, I still prefer the Duncan map. I find the Bizer map difficult to read... I find the buoy markings to be cluttered. Even though they are truer to the ocean charts... I prefer the simpler markings of the Duncan map. A red spar is a red dot. Simple. The Bizer symbols take up too much space on the small scale of the lake map. I like how the Duncan charts have the numbered buoys as just the numbers in squares. In the marking of

FL "80"

That's 7 characters, including a space. All I care about is the '80'. For me, that's 5 characters ot wasted type cluttering up the map.

I also like the photo-stuff on the Duncan map... i.e., how the land shading matches the tree coverage. I find it helps me visualize the map much better.

Just my opinion.

-Rick

[Silver Duck]

I find my copy of the Duncan map very useful. It's a perfect fit for the chart area (with a transparent cover) that's located above my helm, and makes an excellent sunshade to keep my folded copy of Bizer's map in pristine condition!

When I'm venturing into certain areas of the lake , I want all the detail I can get.

Silver Duck

[pmj]

Like I said, I bought the bizer chart and perhaps I will buy a Duncan also..I dug a bit deeper in their web site and it seems some features are unique to them...best of both worlds, then i can compare for myself.



Now, hopefully those invisible islands will stay out of my way

Thanks, all!

PMJ

[Boater]

I also vote for the Bizer chart and I've used both.

easier to read
more detail
much more rocks shown
whole lake on 1 side instead of split
tons of information on the back

No contest IMHO.

[Rattlesnake Gal]

Originally Posted by Boater

I also vote for the Bizer chart and I've used both.
whole lake on 1 side instead of split tons of information on the back

They both come in several different layouts. The laminated ones use of both sides for the map and have a fold.

[Tyler]

the Duncan press over the Bizer. Both good maps however IMO the Duncan is easier to read and more accurate.

[kchace]

I have the last 3 versions of the Bizer chart and an older version of the Duncan press chart (The older green one). I use the Bizer chart at home. I use the 'old green chart' in the boat. I find it MUCH easier to read when in a moving boat due to the much less clutter. I don't need to see every bit of detail when I am cruising someplace, I need to know how I should pass a group of bouys. I can't see that on the Bizercharts without concentrating far too much on the chart when I am also piloting the boat!

I too have found the new "Pocket" Bizer map with its far less detail much better for cruising use. If it was a little more durable, it might have been capable of replacing my older Duncan press map.

Ken

[Wolfeboro Matt]

I'm surprised (unless I missed it) that Bizer has not contributed publicly to this thread. One of the reasons I've become a Bizer fan is because of the very valuable and consistent input he provides and information he adds to our group. (Both on forum and off line.)

Long before the Bizer chart was available, I had been a "Green" chart regular. To be honest, I stuck with them for a long time after Bizer came about. I preferred their more "nautical" look than Bizer's "friendly/funny" look (the "green" chart is the one framed on my office wall). And, being a fisherman (at least I try ) the green was supposedly the better map.

Nowadays, I carry both. The Bizer chart, based on my experience and forum commentary, is more accurate for navigation, and I've not heard otherwise.

I switch back and forth.

To fish, I use Green.
To frame, I use Green.

To navigate, I use Bizer.
To study the lake, I use Bizer.
I have more fun with Bizer.

Have fun either way...

[Kona Bay Girl]

The Bizer map we own has hidden quirky tidbits written in the streets. It has a better sense of humor .

[trfour]

Originally Posted by Kona Bay Girl

The Bizer map we own has hidden quirky tidbits written in the streets. It has a better sense of humor .

"A very good Idea!"
I keep one in the boat, and one in my snowmobile, just for safe keeping!

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

I also used the old green (Duncan Press) map for many many years. When I first got a Bizer map I found a lot of good, useful and accurate information but it took a bit to get used to using it. For a few years I carried BOTH Bizer and Duncan aboard.

The last 5 or 6 years I've used Bizer exclusively (I have all the editions). I like the detail when I venture to an unfamiliar area. I appreciate the accuracy, the format and all the information. Bizer has been active on the forum and seems to be driven to deliver the best and most accurate product possible. Always seeking input to make the Bizer map/chart the best it can be in detail and presentation. Both the Duncan and the Bizer web sites contain comparison information about their respective charts and the competition. Bizer is a valuable contributer to the forum however I understand his absence from THIS thread.

I have not seen the "new" Duncan chart and don't plan to purchase ANY lake chart in the next 6 months. I already have a Bizer 6th edition that I enjoyed using this season and plan to use in 2005. But I'll look at the green map next summer and see what it's like.

Looking at the samples of each chart/map that Rattlesnake Gal posted I'm wondering why I see TWO red tops south of Pitchwood Island (FL 44) on the Duncan map but only ONE red top in that area on the Bizer map. I wonder which map is accurate?

[Misty Blue]

Originally Posted by pmj

I just went to the banner ad for Duncan Press . They have charts of lake Winnipesaukee as does Bizer. I just bought a Bizer chart. Does anyone have both to be able to decipher the differences ?

pmj

I have nothing new to add on this subject. We use them both. The duncan for showing "tourists" the lake and the bizer for serious navigation. I prefer the Bizer but both are adiquate. And YES you should have a map at all times.

One thing though. The Duncan map can come in a series of 8" by 11 1/2" double sided sheets held together with a ring. It looks clever but at night in the rain I find it very hard to change from one frame to the other.

Misty Blue

[Gilligan]

Before there was a Bizer I used the old green chart. Once I saw the Bizer chart I switched and have stuck with Bizer. The Duncan chart seemed stale. Some markers moved on the lake but not on the green chart. Bizer keeps us up to date on every change.

I think there is only one red marker by Pitchwood. Nice catch Al. Wish my boat were still in the water so I could check it out. I would gamble that the Bizer chart has it right.

Either chart will get you around the lake and the choice is a personal preference. I prefer Bizer. I feel more confident navigating with the Bizer chart.

Safe boating to you.

[MAXUM]

The old green map gets my vote, so much easier to read and in some cases when it comes to figuring out where you need to go, less is more IMHO.

[glennsteely]

can anyone tell me when both of these maps were first printed, i have a few very, very old editions of maps from the lake but they are in bad shape and i dont want to unfold and damage them....just curious to see if they are as old as i think.......

[Rattlesnake Gal]

Please note both maps have been updated since the ones we purchased. (The pieces scanned.)

Duncan Press - The Old Green Map, has been charting the lakes since 1967.
They also have old maps for sale and wonderful attractive maps for framing.
Their site does compare the two versions, but it looks like they may not be comparing it to Bizer's newest.

Bizer was started 1996 according to the FAQ's on their site.
Excellent site, if you haven’t been.

Buy both! Then you’re covered. And you will be supporting two businesses that support this site!

[glennsteely]

Thanks for the info, but I would venture to say the charts I have are from the 40's or 50's......is this possible? do you know of anyone who was mapping the lake that far back?

[KBoater]

I have a 1946 map hanging in my office here in FL. It is a NH Navigation Chart published by the Lake Region Association NH State Planning Commission. It probably has little value since I have seen several in other places however its value to me is that my father annotated the map with some roads in 1946. The map is white background with the lake in blue. The black/red markers are on it although the red are faded. The major markers are there. Anyone know when the lake first had markers.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Gilligan

I think there is only one red marker by Pitchwood. Nice catch Al. Wish my boat were still in the water so I could check it out. I would gamble that the Bizer chart has it right.

There is only 1 marker (not counting the lighted nav-aid) off Pitchwood. Perhaps is some bygone day there was, and is supposed to be, 2 but for at least the last few years it's just the 1 that I can remember.

Also Bizer's chart seems to show the last black tipped marker off Eagle in a more representative place as I know you have to zig-zag a little when going btw Pitchwood, said marker and Stonedam.

[Joe Kerr]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

There is only 1 marker (not counting the lighted nav-aid) off Pitchwood. Perhaps is some bygone day there was, and is supposed to be, 2 but for at least the last few years it's just the 1 that I can remember.

Also Bizer's chart seems to show the last black tipped marker off Eagle in a more representative place as I know you have to zig-zag a little when going btw Pitchwood, said marker and Stonedam.

My 2nd edition Bizer chart from 1998 shows only one red top by light 44, not the two red tops shown on the Duncan chart. So it's been just one marker there since at least 1998. Rattlesnake Gal mentioned that both charts she scanned have been updated so as MnM suggested, maybe there were two red tops there way back in history. Either way, I am confident that if there were a change, Bizer would have it posted at their web page corrections and updates section. In this case, the Bizer chart is accurate. Only one red top at Pitchwood Island light 44.

Also, like MnM, I like the more realistic positioning of the markers on Bizers Chart like the zig-zag mentioned.

The grouping of markers between Eagle and Pitchwood Islands looks like a small grouping on the Duncan chart but the markers are more realistically shown spread out on the Bizer chart. If you are unfamiliar with that area the Bizer chart shows the area with much more accuracy. The Duncan chart could lead you to believe there is much more of an open channel between Eagle and Pitchwood than there is. IMO the Bizer chart helps me navigate the lake better than the Duncan chart does.

In the cove to the south of Governor's Island Bridge, the light 43 side, there are 2 black tops by the mainland. Again, the Bizer chart shows their relative position more accurately than the Duncan chart. Duncan shows both black tops running parallel with the No Rafting Zone line. The Bizer chart shows the 2 black tops positioned in a line perpendicular to the No Rafting Zone line with one marker in the zone, the other outside the zone. The way it is in real life. I think the Bizer map is much more realistic and accurate.

Also, IMHO, Bizer raised the bar when it comes to Lake Winnipesaukee Charts. Duncan Press had a monopoly for many years and got lax. See the reason Bizer started their business on their web site. Duncan has some catching up to do. Competition is good in this case. We win with better charts. Thanks Bizer.

If the Duncan chart becomes as accurate as the Bizer chart then I might have room on board for both. At about $10 per chart it is an insignificant amount of money compared to what it costs to own and operate a boat. And a good chart can be so valuable to navigation. Even though the lake does not change much the markers do and so do other items and facilities.

[glennsteely]

Originally Posted by FLboater

I have a 1946 map hanging in my office here in FL. It is a NH Navigation Chart published by the Lake Region Association NH State Planning Commission. It probably has little value since I have seen several in other places however its value to me is that my father annotated the map with some roads in 1946. The map is white background with the lake in blue. The black/red markers are on it although the red are faded. The major markers are there. Anyone know when the lake first had markers.

the value is that i hold on to things that remind me of the lake......i have one similar to that, white with the lake in blue, i guess i should take the time to unfold and examine them, they are in bad shape, must be from years on our boats.....

[Sandy Beach]

I have the 1998-1999 Duncan Press chart of the lake. It is definitely a different year than the one scanned above. Mine shows a 4th red channel marker leading to the Governor's Island Bridge. That 4th red channel marker has been gone for many years and does not show on the sample Duncan chart Rattlesnake Gal scanned. I assume the scan is of a Duncan Press chart more recent than my 1998-1999 version. I bought both the Duncan chart and the Bizer chart that year. Ever since then I have used the Bizer charts when I boat. I update when Bizer publishes a new edition. Bizer has earned my loyalty and I appreciate his personal contributions to the forum community.

One error I see on both versions of the Duncan charts is the location of Flashing Light 69. This is and has always been a companion to the first black channel marker leading to the Governor's Island Bridge Channel from the Weirs. Both Duncan charts incorrectly show the flashing light to be with the middle of the 3 black channel markers.

My Duncan chart also shows 2 red tops by Pitchwood. We have knowledge that there was only one red top there for a number of years. We already saw that the 1998 Bizer chart showed only one red top there so the Duncan chart was not accurate that year in that location.

In fairness to Duncan Press, they claim they have a newly designed chart . I have not seen the new chart but I must assume that it is very different from the one RG scanned and the one I have. On the Duncan Press web page they list some advisers and technical teams from Washington State that helped compile data for the new improved Duncan chart. They even have a table that compares features of the the OLD Duncan chart with the NEW Duncan chart and the competition (guess that's Bizer ). So we need input from anyone who has seen the very new Duncan chart.

I also want to stop and thank Duncan Press and all the advertisers for supporting this Winnipesaukee web site. The Duncan Press support of my favorite place on the Internet, regardless of the opinions expressed in the forum, is strong motivation for me to check out their new chart next boating season. I think they are finally reacting to the popularity of Bizer. My small boat is big enough for a Bizer chart and a Duncan chart if the new one is worthwhile.

Now how could you sharp eyed people miss the out of position Flashing Light 69 on the older Duncan chart?

[Skipper]

The Duncan Press banner ad seen here on the forum proclaims that their chart has, "All buoys numbered". But is that a true statement?

In addition to their recent banner ad and on the Duncan Press website competitors comparison claims that the latest Duncan chart is the only one to have all buoys numbered. That is as of today, January 19, 2007 on their web page and their forum ad. They are not talking about the flashing light numbered markers.

I tried to research this a bit and discovered that you can not read the numbers on the markers unless you dive. But wait there's more!

Back in May of 2006 Duncan posted some Winnipesaukee chart updates on their website. This is one of six similar entries from Duncan: "New Black Top. The Marine Patrol has decided to add bouys [sic] without the numbering system and lat/long. Sorry". Duncan Press Chart changes page. That was 9 months ago and involved 6 new buoys without numbers. Brickyard Cove, Langdon Cove just to name 2. This is an interesting contradiction.

How can both statements be true? Duncan Press posts about 6 buoys with no numbers back in May 2006 and in January 2007 still claim their chart has All Buoys Numbered???

I appreciate the fact that Duncan helps support this wonderful web site however attention to detail is very very important to me.

By the way Duncan, your corrections and additions page needs to be corrected for the spelling of buoys.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Skipper

Back in May of 2006 Duncan posted some Winnipesaukee chart updates on their website. This is one of six similar entries from Duncan: "New Black Top. The Marine Patrol has decided to add bouys [sic] without the numbering system and lat/long. Sorry".

How can both statements be true? Duncan Press posts about 6 buoys with no numbers back in May 2006 and in January 2007 still claim their chart has All Buoys Numbered???

By the way Duncan, your corrections and additions page needs to be corrected for the spelling of buoys.

I think that's all very funny . Good thing they are in the business of selling charts and not running websites. Nine months of conflicting information on their website.

Mis-spelling buoys on the Duncan website doesn't count. Funny yes, but not an indication of the accuracy of their chart is it?

There was another message group asking about differences between the 2 charts: Duncan Versus Bizer debate. I would like to see more reviews and comparisons between the two.

Which chart really is the most accurate? Is there conflicting information between the two charts?

Thanks

[Lakegeezer]

Duncan has invented a numbering system for the bouys. That is very nice for GPS labeling, because you can get to know them much like you do the numbered bouys. I wish the MP would adopt Duncan's system, so that Bizer could use them too. I think Bizer is more accurate, because they participate in this forum, which gives them lots of feedback. They also have a reward system for new rocks - and I know first hand that they pay. For the wall of my home I like the Duncan map better but for navigation, I use Bizer.

[Phantom]

Kind of echo'ing Lakegeezer -- I think you will find the Duncan map easier to read (less cluttered) while underway -- however lacking in the detail of a Bizer map. I too usually carry both in the boat with me. When i have "tourists" aboard I usually hand them the Duncan map -- It's easier to follow, and I can spot where we are on the fly and point it out on their map easier. To LakeGeezers point -- i too have an "older" Duncan on the wall -- but navigate by a Bizer.