Tough times/ Bad Economy

[chipj29]

Some excellent explanations and discussion going here...good stuff gang! Many thanks!

Now who wants to tell me where 15% of my 401k went yesterday?

[SAMIAM]

I remember,I couple of years ago.when Wachovia Bank announced they were "reaching out" to the illegal....oops,I meant undocumented immigrant community with loans and accounts without proof of residence.Looks like they reached a little too far.
Now,all of the sleazy politicians expect us to pony up.......they were elected to represent US, but don't care that the public is overwhelmingly opposed to the bail out.

[SIKSUKR]

Very impressed with the level of knowledge on this board of how this mess has happened.Methinks that people that play in water are very smart at knowing how NOT to drown and the Capt boneheads usually are the ones that get into trouble and need the Marine Patrol to bail them out because they had no idea what issues might arise out there.Yes,there is an analogy or something like that with that statement.It must be George Bush and the GOP's fault that guy on Long lake ran over those 2 poor people!

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by chipj29

Now who wants to tell me where 15% of my 401k went yesterday?

It went to people like me who have kept 6 figure cash reserves waiting for this day.

PS, thanks.

PPS (no offense meant )

[sa meredith]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

It went to people like me who have kept 6 figure cash reserves waiting for this day.

PS, thanks.

PPS (no offense meant )

It went to you? Are you "short selling" stocks?
Keeping A strong cash postion is a good idea, but how that helped you realize some gain by the decline is puzzling.
Do tell...
Perhaps you are indeed short selling, or maybe you bought some "puts" awhile back. If so, nice forward thinking.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

It went to people like me who have kept 6 figure cash reserves waiting for this day.

PS, thanks.

PPS (no offense meant )

If you kept it in cash, then you got nothing, in fact your cash's value just shrinks and shrinks and shrinks. Balanced portfolio is the answer, if you have 6 figures in cash, you should have one.

[dpg]

SA Meredith...Keeping some cash on hand allows you to buy into the market when it has a large drop (777) points is a HUGE drop to say the least. I guess you can say I "short sell" in my 401K all the time. I buy into the "DOW" fund in my plan (401K) let it go up a hundred points then move it all out. After you just wait for it to come down and do it again. I am not in the financial "biz" but have averaged 15% returns for the last three years (since I started doing this.) Double-Digit returns in any 401K or IRA is relatively simple to achieve. If your not AT LEAST into double-digit returns (10+%) every year your doing something wrong. I say 3 years cause I've only started doing this for that long and started putting my 401K front and center. My best year has been 23.3% and lowest was 14.2%. This year I won't break 10% but hey look around, what "average Joe" will? Next year I'm guaranteed to be right there again. I know this cause I got away from my strategy in the first quarter of '08 and watched my account go to -8% never again. I'm almost 48 and hope (and expect) to be at a cool million dollar balance by my middle 50's....That's my goal. This strategy is not for the faint of heart moving around six figures into a fund that drops doesn't feel too good. For me the rewards have out-weighed the losses.

[Island-Ho]

Good thread. One of the problems I'm hearing about is the inability of small companies to routinely borrow funds to pay salaries etc. This really sounds like a poor way to run a business to me. What happened to the profits from all the past good years? Must have been pulled out/paid to owner so he could buy his lakefront McMansion and GFBL. We need more responsible company management, large and small, not relying on someone elses money(credit) all the time.
There is an independent gas station near me that has gone out of business twice in the last two years. It's now back in operation selling gas at $3.36! (In MASS) on a cash basis only. He either could not get credit for the operation, or chose to bypass the enormous cost of dealing in credit cards all day. Yes, it takes a good deal of money (credit) to get going, but credit should not be necessary for continued responsible operation. Maybe we need to get back on a cash basis for routine stuff and cut up the credit cards!

[Pineedles]

Originally Posted by Island-Ho

Good thread. One of the problems I'm hearing about is the inability of small companies to routinely borrow funds to pay salaries etc. This really sounds like a poor way to run a business to me. What happened to the profits from all the past good years? Must have been pulled out/paid to owner so he could buy his lakefront McMansion and GFBL. We need more responsible company management, large and small, not relying on someone elses money(credit) all the time.
There is an independent gas station near me that has gone out of business twice in the last two years. It's now back in operation selling gas at $3.36! (In MASS) on a cash basis only. He either could not get credit for the operation, or chose to bypass the enormous cost of dealing in credit cards all day. Yes, it takes a good deal of money (credit) to get going, but credit should not be necessary for continued responsible operation. Maybe we need to get back on a cash basis for routine stuff and cut up the credit cards!

Small companies and large companies maintain cash flow with a LOC (line of credit) because business is cyclical, and yes it is used sometimes to pay salaries. It is not a poor way to run a business. As for the past good years, you often plow the profits back into the business so you can grow. THIS is responsible management! If there is enough profit then what's wrong with a McMansion or a GFBL? Nothing!

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by ITD

If you kept it in cash, then you got nothing, in fact your cash's value just shrinks and shrinks and shrinks. Balanced portfolio is the answer, if you have 6 figures in cash, you should have one.

My portfolio is rather large and rather well balanced.

My answer was purposefully somewhat off the cuff. For every stock seller there is a buyer. I have honestly been waiting for some of these selloffs, to pick up certain stocks "at a discount".

You are correct that his loss did not "directly" go to me in any transactions this week. And if people did not sell their stock, then their loss is only on paper, and will likely be made back as the market rebounds.

I was sort of trying to stay out of this because I don't have the time to write out all the data and details and explanations as some others have done much more effectively. My personal finances are split between a professional wealth manager (who has managed to do very well for me through all this) and some lumps that I manage on my own (or actually on "our" own, as my wife is a financial analyst by profession and knows more than a thing or two about all this as well).

[Irish mist]

I'm no fan of FDR, but it was a wise decesion to enact the Glass-Steagal Act, and it was a very unwise decesion to take that act off the books. The Glass-Steagal act kept investment banking separte from commerical banking.....once commerical banking became involved with investment banking the sharks took over, and packaged all these loans in exotic, and liquid products that they sold all over the world.

I'm pleased to see that most of our local NH banks learned their lesson from the 80s housing boom and remain in good shape. A good investment for you folks near retirement is municipal bonds. NH bond funds are double tax free (state & federal) and out of state bond funds are federal tax free.
________
Toyota Tf104 History

[ITD]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

My portfolio is rather large and rather well balanced.

My answer was purposefully somewhat off the cuff. For every stock seller there is a buyer. I have honestly been waiting for some of these selloffs, to pick up certain stocks "at a discount".

You are correct that his loss did not "directly" go to me in any transactions this week. And if people did not sell their stock, then their loss is only on paper, and will likely be made back as the market rebounds.

I was sort of trying to stay out of this because I don't have the time to write out all the data and details and explanations as some others have done much more effectively. My personal finances are split between a professional wealth manager (who has managed to do very well for me through all this) and some lumps that I manage on my own (or actually on "our" own, as my wife is a financial analyst by profession and knows more than a thing or two about all this as well).

Nice job, I kind of figured as much, thank god for muni bonds in times like this, although they'll probably be next.....

[jrc]

Depending on your tax bracket muni bonds can be a good deal. As taxes go up next year they will be a better investment.

The problem is finding NH tax free muni bonds. There just aren't that many. So many purchase Puerto Rico muni bonds. Tax free in every state.

[beaner]

Originally Posted by Island-Ho

What happened to the profits from all the past good years?

For a lot of small businesses, a very large chunk of money is going right out the door every month for health insurance premiums. In our case, we've experienced double-digit increases every year for many years, despite having only two single, healthy, non-smoking employees. We raise deductibles and lower benefits year after year, but it seems there's no end in sight.

We set up HSAs, but found that they offer only a negligible premium decrease for the employer, along with a lot of record-keeping and expense for the employee. HSAs are simply a means to shift the cost from the employer to the employee - hardly a solution to a real and growing problem.

[Irish mist]

Originally Posted by jrc

Depending on your tax bracket muni bonds can be a good deal. As taxes go up next year they will be a better investment.

The problem is finding NH tax free muni bonds. There just aren't that many. So many purchase Puerto Rico muni bonds. Tax free in every state.

Good points. I own some California munis. Because of the problems out there they offer some very high rates. I believe NH has only one muni bond fund, but there should be enough single NH general obligation bonds that can be purchased.
________
F platform

[Mr. Prop-B-Gone]

Apologies if this seems off topic given the recent posts, but......

It seems to me that the most recent Bailout, Rescue, whatever, works like this. The government takes our money and gives it to the banks so that they can lend it back to us at a profit. Gee, what a great country. No wonder my father wanted me to be a banker!

As to the drop in the market, well, if you didn't sell your shares you still have exactly what you had when you bought them. X% of that company. The only people who lost money were the speculators who panicked and sold out.

Remember, investing is just another form of gambling. You knew going in that there was no guarantee that you would win. If you were to bet the mortgage money on a horse race and lose, no one would even consider bailing you out.

Its time these Bozos in Washington started rewarding the people who did things right instead of shoveling all our hard earned money at the people who knowingly did this to us.

Whew! I feel better now! Thanks for listening!

[hockeypuck]

My question is: If the "Bail Out" passes and the government buys some (many) bad mortgages and now owns some (many) foreclosed property, who is going to manage the property? The usual chain of events for unoccupied homes is that the grounds grow wild, the lawn is 3 feet tall, birds and vermin take up residence, local kids do some mischief, vandals do some real damage, drug users may take up residence. The value of the property continues to fall. The local government has problems finding or contacting the owner. My point is that the Fed. Gov. is too large to manage individual properties, and properties will be lost in the red tape. Maybe this will be a new business in the making, the management of government properties.

[VitaBene]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolut...st_Corporation

I think the plan is to set a group up like the Resolution Trust Corp that was set up during the last RE bust/ banking meltdown.

[tis]

hockey. And the fed sells it for a dime on the dollar and we are stuck with the loss. We expect the gov. to do it better than a bank?????

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by hockeypuck

My question is: If the "Bail Out" passes and the government buys some (many) bad mortgages and now owns some (many) foreclosed property, who is going to manage the property? The usual chain of events for unoccupied homes is that the grounds grow wild, the lawn is 3 feet tall, birds and vermin take up residence, local kids do some mischief, vandals do some real damage, drug users may take up residence. The value of the property continues to fall. The local government has problems finding or contacting the owner. My point is that the Fed. Gov. is too large to manage individual properties, and properties will be lost in the red tape. Maybe this will be a new business in the making, the management of government properties.

Hi Hockeypuck,

The government will take the assets and start selling them off. This will create a secondary market in the properties as they will be sold in larger lots to brokers and then likely broken down and sold to smaller investors. Clearly, these properties will sell extremely inexpensively as this is a fire sale and there will be costs to clean up the properties and resell them.

So the properties get sold, cleaned up and ultimately end up on the retail market. Everyone along the chain is trying to make money. As the taxpayer we probably only get a small piece of the action.

Jetskier

[Mike M.]

It all comes back to personal responsibility.

No one was forced to take a mortgage for more than they could afford to pay back. From the push of too much government regulation we have created part of this mess. A quote from the article sa_meredith shared:

“Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits.”

This lifestyle of living beyond our means is unfortunately unsustainable and quickly coming to an end. This problem is not isolated to the housing market; it is visible in all parts of the economy. Car leases, credit cards, loans for everything. Everyone is over extending themselves and one day these bills will all be due.

To put it simply we are maxed out.

What is the problem with the housing market, why aren’t homes selling?

Housing values kept getting pushed up by easy credit during the housing bubble. Now we reached a point where the housing market is trying to reset itself to there true market values.

Regardless of what we do now it’s going to be painful but I believe we need to let these assets reset. In addition to giving Paulson unchecked powers to spend our money, the bailout is going to prop up the housing market and the same banks that practiced poor lending practices in the first place. These are the same people who led us into this mess and now we are going to trust them to give us the solution to get us out of it?

Besides what the 850 billion dollar bailout will cost us on the surface, we need to consider the cost it will have to our dollar. Very few people are considering the effects this bailout will have on our buying power. This is going to affect the poor and people on fixed incomes the most.

The Federal Reserve (Private bank, not elected by the people, taxation without representation?) is going to create this money out of thin air like always, further debasing our dollar and driving up the price of everything in the process. The inflation tax in addition to the close to a trillion dollars is something we can not afford.

If we don’t bailout the banks what will happen according to the president?

The credit market will freeze up and it’ll be difficult to acquire credit.
-It will be, but easy credit is the reason we are in this mess.

If we don’t pass the bailout our 401k will suffer and our retirement will be in jeopardy.
-If we do pass this bill it is going to lower the value of our buying power with our 401k anyway. Without addressing the actual problem that caused this mess, we can expect we will have to bailout more companies in the future, further lowering the value of our 401ks.

Until we address the bubbles we create from the Federal Reserve and fiat money we will not be able to solve our economic problems. We at the very least need to have some congressional oversight of the fed to make sure they are making the best decisions for us.

Every time the fed puts more money into the financial system they are devaluing our money.

The bailouts solution to the problem is to pump-in (create) another 850 billion into the system to cover assets that are essentially worthless. If these assets had any true value we wouldn’t have to bail them out. (The whole idea of these assets giving us a return in the future is faulty. The reason we are bailing them out in the first place is because of a credit bubble that drove the prices up over true market value.) So the bailout is going to save the system by means of more fiat money, driving our living standard down more?

We need to allow the free market to work this out without government interference. If we keep patching the problem rather than fix it, we are only going to enlarge the bubble and make it that much more painful when it finally does burst.

An appropriate quote from Thomas Jefferson:
“The central bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.”

[tis]

You are so right Mike M. Personal responsibility is such a big thing! I also agree, we need to allow this to play out without government interference. The more the government gets into our lives the worse things get. This would only be the first step. I don't know if they really know what will help.

[Mr. Prop-B-Gone]

Anyone else see the quarter page ad Laconia Savings Bank ran in the Union Leader today? In a nut shell it says "We didn't make sub prime mortgages, we didn't lend to Wall Street, and because we lent our money wisely we have plenty of capitol and we are still making loans."

Judging by today's mail Amex still wants me for a customer and Countrywide still wants to lend me more money.

So, if this is the trend with the Main Street banks, where's the problem? Sure smells like Wall Street.

This money is coming from one place. The printing presses. The net effect will be to instantly devalue the US Dollar by about 10%. At the same time, a substantial portion of this bail out money will go to foreign investors, not Americans. I'm sure that will help the country!

On tonight's WMUR news Carol Shea Porter is saying she likes the bill now because it contains "money for disaster victims". Funny, but I seem to remember that there was NO money for the individuals who's homes were damaged in the tornado and floods here in New Hampshire.

Sweetening this bill with things like tax cuts, disaster relief, FDIC insurance expansion and the like is nothing more than legislative terrorism. If these are good things they should be voted in anyway, and not used as pork to grease this bill in. And of course, no one is saying just how much extra these things will add to the cost of this bill.

Even if the Feds get a great deal on these distressed properties and make money when they sell them do you really think that they will use that money to repay the debts they ran up? If so, I have just two words for you: Social Security.

I hope everyone who dislikes this bill will call Carol Shea Porter at (202) 225-5456 tomorrow and let her know that if she votes for this bill, you won't vote for her. Pass the number on to your friends.

[Orion]

There was $160B of added pork to buy the votes needed to pass this bill. I say vote the whole bunch out. We're headed down the long slide. Should be able to buy some cheap waterfront in the next year.....if you still have any money.

[This'nThat]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

I am posting this story from 1999 (that's right, 1999) from the New York post.
"Fannie Mae has expanded home ownership for millions of families in the 1990's by reducing down payment requirements,'' said Franklin D. Raines, Fannie Mae's chairman and chief executive officer.".

And who is Franklin D. Raines?

• He is accused by The Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight OFHEO), the regulating body of Fannie Mae, of abetting widespread accounting errors, which included the shifting of losses so senior executives, such as himself, could earn large bonuses
• On December 21, 2004 Raines accepted what he called "early retirement" from his position as CEO while U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission investigators continued to investigate alleged accounting irregularities
• In 2006, the OFHEO announced a suit against Raines in order to recover some or all of the $90 million in payments made to Raines based on the overstated earnings
• In an editorial in August 27, 2008 titled "Tough Decision Coming", the Washington Post editorial staff wrote that "Two members of Mr. Obama's political circle, James A. Johnson and Franklin D. Raines, are former chief executives of Fannie Mae."

[Mink Islander]

It there is one thing we should all be able to agree on, it's that the level of partisan bickering and finger pointing in this country is completely debilitating to solving the problems the country faces today. There is no Party and no Party Leader from the President on down, Republican or Democrat who is without blame for the current mess. So rather than try to seek to place blame and light the partisan fires, how about we all seek to rise above that and work together constructively to find a long term solution.

I've been so glad to see this forum revive itself from the depths of extreme nastiness regarding the speed limit debate.

Let's not go down that path on this topic, okay?

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Mink Islander

There is no Party and no Party Leader from the President on down, Republican or Democrat who is without blame for the current mess.

... the above is it. Both parties have had their hand in this cookie jar for years. Just like the upcoming Social Securty mess it's been years in the making. And FWIW the major blame doesn't even go to the pols ... it goes to all those people who decided they'd live beyond what their means and commonsense dictate. You can fault the police for not catching the bank robber but let's not forget who robbed the bank in the first place.

[secondcurve]

Originally Posted by Mink Islander

It there is one thing we should all be able to agree on, it's that the level of partisan bickering and finger pointing in this country is completely debilitating to solving the problems the country faces today. There is no Party and no Party Leader from the President on down, Republican or Democrat who is without blame for the current mess. So rather than try to seek to place blame and light the partisan fires, how about we all seek to rise above that and work together constructively to find a long term solution.

I've been so glad to see this forum revive itself from the depths of extreme nastiness regarding the speed limit debate.

Let's not go down that path on this topic, okay?

Well said. It's time many of us looked in the mirror.

[fatlazyless]

With the loss of 140 manufactoring jobs, the Freudenberg factory in Laconia is scheduled to close due to the big drop in sales of pickup trucks and SUV's. Freudenberg makes car parts, www.citizen.com, in an acre sized building at the Laconia Industrial Park.

So, where can the 140 employees go to find replacement union manufactoring jobs?

Who's hiring? Not Molex in Gilford. Not Packard in Ashland. Not Anna Lee in Meredith. Not Norton Pike in Littleton. Not Wasau Paper in Groveton. Not Hitchener in Littleton. They have closed.

Maybe at the huge new federal prison being built, up north, in Berlin? Goodbye manufactoring.....hello new prison....how's that for a message?

[sa meredith]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

With the loss of 140 manufactoring jobs, the Freudenberg factory in Laconia is scheduled to close due to the big drop in sales of pickup trucks and SUV's. Freudenberg makes car parts, www.citizen.com, in an acre sized building at the Laconia Industrial Park.

So, where can the 140 employees go to find replacement union manufactoring jobs?

Who's hiring? Not Molex in Gilford. Not Packard in Ashland. Not Anna Lee in Meredith. Not Norton Pike in Littleton. Not Wasau Paper in Groveton. Not Hitchener in Littleton. They have closed.

Maybe at the huge new federal prison being built, up north, in Berlin? Goodbye manufactoring.....hello new prison....how's that for a message?

It's funny...people have always enjoyed "poking fun" at the car business, and thinking, when business is bad..."too bad for them. They probably deserve it". Things like that. But most people have no idea how much the auto industry drives this country. Like the example above, of the plant in Laconia, the jobs that are dependent on people buying cars are countless. Not jobs at dealerships, but the "off shoot" jobs that are related to the auto industry.
I wish those 140 workers well...those 140 workers and all of the businesses in the area that are dependent on those workers having money to spend. And on and on it goes...

[This'nThat]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

The Freudenberg factory in Laconia is scheduled to close. So, where can the 140 employees go to find replacement union manufactoring jobs? Who's hiring?

Who's hiring today? People who make money, that's who. People whose incomes are $100K, $200K, and above. Small businesses. Entrepreneurs.

Now, watch those people disappear when Obama kicks in his "tax the rich" policies. Money given to the government can not be used to expand a business and hire employees.

[tis]

This'n That-I heard that in the bill the Bush tax cuts become permanent. Does anyone know for sure? If so, it might at least be harder for Obama to raise the taxes, although he can still do it. I totally agree with you, let's see how much the gov. can ruing small business now!!!

[fpartri497]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

With the loss of 140 manufactoring jobs, the Freudenberg factory in Laconia is scheduled to close due to the big drop in sales of pickup trucks and SUV's. Freudenberg makes car parts, www.citizen.com, in an acre sized building at the Laconia Industrial Park.

So, where can the 140 employees go to find replacement union manufactoring jobs?

Who's hiring? Not Molex in Gilford. Not Packard in Ashland. Not Anna Lee in Meredith. Not Norton Pike in Littleton. Not Wasau Paper in Groveton. Not Hitchener in Littleton. They have closed.

Maybe at the huge new federal prison being built, up north, in Berlin? Goodbye manufactoring.....hello new prison....how's that for a message?

Isint Walmart Hiring?????????

[Audiofn]

BOY did that almost 1 trillion dollars help out the markets.... It is obvious that the market does not like what the gov has in store for them. The dow was down 800 points at one point today. What was the last time that we saw money being tossed at something make it correct. Look at the Big Pig in Boston!! You know what the workers used to say there? "Hide and go seek for a thousand a week". They put money into this "bailout" for freeking wooden arrow research!!!!! We all have to live with this decision for a long long time. So now I not only get to pay for my house but for a lot of other peoples as well because they did not "understand" that when you work at McD's you can not buy a house that costs 700 grand!! Ok I am done now I think my brain is about to explode.

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by Audiofn

They put money into this "bailout" for freeking wooden arrow research!!!!!

Ok I am done now I think my brain is about to explode.

Good thing you did not purchase any wooden arrows - $.39 tax on a $.30 arrow (that would really cause your brain to explode.). Now you know the real need for the adjustment for wooden arrows.

[HUH]

Great idea lets give everyone on welfare a mortgage as well
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...=&pagewanted=1

[sa meredith]

So the market closes up 900 plus today. And some of you guys were worried... (he said, tongue firmly in cheek)


Message to Lester: We GOTTA have this one.
Go Sox!

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

So the market closes up 900 plus today. And some of you guys were worried... (he said, tongue firmly in cheek)


Message to Lester: We GOTTA have this one.
Go Sox!

The real question is whether this is a "dead cat bounce"? I certainly hope not!

Incidently, I don't think that you shouted loud enough for the Sox to hear you. After the Patriots game yesterday and the Sox game today I am actually glad to be heading to China tomorrow.

Jetskier

[Audiofn]

Now that people are realizing that it is not just US but the entire world that is hurting it does not seem so bad. Dollar got a LOT stronger in the last few days and this has more to do with England and other countries stepping up and injecting money along with the US. Most of that drop was panic driven by the media. Most companies are well run and sound. Now if they can address the business world getting loans then we should come out of this OK.

Were does a union guy go to get a union job? I am not a union guy but I do work with union guys a lot. IMO unions are a thing of the past. There is no doubt that they were needed but now they are ruining businesses by raising the costs of production to the point that companies in the US can not compete any more. My wife works for a huge fortune 50 company. They are laying many many people off. They moved production from a location in mass. and Utah over to Switzerland. Labor costs over there are much higher but the taxes are low. So what do people think will happen with Obama wants to raise them. IMO more manufacturing will run from this country.

My guess however is that this is a little bit of a dead cat bounce and expect it to drop again.

[SAMIAM]

Unions are the main reason that America has lost all of its jobs.Their wage,benifit and retirement demands have driven out millions of jobs.Don't blame the business'.In Detroit,for example....guy making $35 an hour running a rivet gun all day.Calls in sick on monday,stays stoned at work all week and takes off at noon on friday.They can't fire him because of the union.
Even around here it's noticable.Sysco drivers (non union0 work alone and unload a tractor trailer.Budweiser drivers (union) show up in a little box truck with at least two,sometimes three guys.We tease them when they show up...I ask them "Hey,who's the clipboard operator today"

[sa meredith]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Unions are the main reason that America has lost all of its jobs.Their wage,benifit and retirement demands have driven out millions of jobs.Don't blame the business'.In Detroit,for example....guy making $35 an hour running a rivet gun all day.Calls in sick on monday,stays stoned at work all week and takes off at noon on friday.They can't fire him because of the union.
Even around here it's noticable.Sysco drivers (non union0 work alone and unload a tractor trailer.Budweiser drivers (union) show up in a little box truck with at least two,sometimes three guys.We tease them when they show up...I ask them "Hey,who's the clipboard operator today"

Amen, amen, amen!
Although unions were needed, and indeed great things at one time, they now do nothing more than protect the slacker, and "over benefit" workers.
The sense of entitlement by an average union worker truly baffles me.

[EricP]

Seems to me that Unions have gone a bit far, not only that now that we have the DOL are they as neccessary as they used to be? They've become too powerful and can ruin a business.

I think recently I saw that Boeing was in real danger of bankruptcy and they lost an Air Force contract to Airbus. A lot of Americans cried foul because we lost to an overseas company and Americans were in danger of losing jobs. Congress I guess rethought the contract and gave it to Boeing, then a couple weeks later I hear that the Boeing workers are or may be going on strike. That is ridiculous, they came close to losing their jobs and now they strike? Seems stupid to me. I don't know the details of why they were striking, but it would seem trivial in light of losing your job coupled with the current economic conditions.

[Argie's Wife]

Forbes Magazine just named 3 NH communities - Concord, NH being one of the three communities (in a list of 10 communities!) - as "recession proof"...

Here's the article:

http://www.wmur.com/money/17735706/detail.html

[sea_n_ski]

Let's face it most of us are summer residents and spend a weekend here and there the rest of the year. We have always made it a point to do as much business as possible int he lakes region because we love it so much. I always fill up when in area. We buy things local to keep the businesses alive. We even go up to Mills Falls to do our Christmas shopping.

I just had the trim painted on my hours and the painter had no work. I felt bad, so I had him paint the main areas inside. Although it wasn't a big job, it made his day.

We always wait until we are around Meredith before we eat out or buy anything.

My point is if we don't support these local businesses they won't be there when we need them. Its got to be rough on the people who own businesses around the lake. Let's face it, regardless of what all the experts say good or bad, we are all tightening our belts and spending less.

We need to make sure when we support our local merchants. Spend the extra buck at the local hardware store instead of going to Home Depot back home.

This thing will turn around eventually. Until it does, those of us that are seasonal residents need to do everything we can to support the lake economy. Otherwise it will become a ghost town.

[SAMIAM]

Good for you Sea n Ski.....I'm with you there.Rarely go to a big box store.rather get great service for just a little more money....recently got new computers at Lakes Region Computer in center Harbor and got great service.Try calling Staples if you have a problem.

[KonaChick]

Originally Posted by sea_n_ski

Let's face it most of us are summer residents and spend a weekend here and there the rest of the year. We have always made it a point to do as much business as possible int he lakes region because we love it so much. I always fill up when in area. We buy things local to keep the businesses alive. We even go up to Mills Falls to do our Christmas shopping.

I just had the trim painted on my hours and the painter had no work. I felt bad, so I had him paint the main areas inside. Although it wasn't a big job, it made his day.

We always wait until we are around Meredith before we eat out or buy anything.

My point is if we don't support these local businesses they won't be there when we need them. Its got to be rough on the people who own businesses around the lake. Let's face it, regardless of what all the experts say good or bad, we are all tightening our belts and spending less.

We need to make sure when we support our local merchants. Spend the extra buck at the local hardware store instead of going to Home Depot back home.

This thing will turn around eventually. Until it does, those of us that are seasonal residents need to do everything we can to support the lake economy. Otherwise it will become a ghost town.

I do agree with what you're saying and my husband and I try to do the same thing, however some "local" businesses have priced themselves right out of people's wallets. Anyone been to Jackson Star lately?? I don't think it's the summer or weekend people that make a difference so much but the year round people who have to pay the inflated prices all the time. They are the ones leaving to drive to Concord, Tilton, Conway to do their major shopping. The price gauging has got to stop if (some) local businesses want to stay competitive and thrive IMHO.

[sa meredith]

Well, as the starter of this thread, I felt it appropriate to post this.
On August 31st, the owner of the business I have worked for the past 21 years, will lock the doors, and will not be opening them on September 1st, or ever again.
A lot of blood, sweat, tears, and ass kissing as I climbed the ladder over the years. And now, to be kicked right off the ladder...oh well.
We certainly hung in there as long as we could, but in the end, the family owned business just can't go head to head with the superstore when it comes to big ticket items. Think "Home Depot" vs. "The Neighborhood Hardware Store".
So now I am a victim of the economy...but when one door closes, another opens...right?
Now, about those boat payments, fees for valet service, and the annual lease on the land for camp....

[Irish mist]

Terrible news. I hope you find some work quick.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

.......So now I am a victim of the economy...but when one door closes, another opens...right?......

Sorry to hear this, and I am sure it will not feel like it now, but in the end things do always happen for a reason.... I have been laid of twice in my career and both time, after a little struggle to get back on my feet have realized it was the kick I need to get myself going in a new direction.....

Hopefully things will fall into place for you best of luck

[tis]

I am very sorry for you too sa and your boss and your company as well. It is so sad and scary what is happening to this country! Is your company in NH?

[eillac@dow]

SA, I too feel very bad for you. It is a shame.

Things do happen for a reason and they will get better. I worked for the Gillette Company for 21 years and was let go about 2 years ago. I was able to take a year off and and have now been employed for 1 year.

I wish you the best.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

Well, as the starter of this thread, I felt it appropriate to post this.
On August 31st, the owner of the business I have worked for the past 21 years, will lock the doors, and will not be opening them on September 1st, or ever again.
A lot of blood, sweat, tears, and ass kissing as I climbed the ladder over the years. And now, to be kicked right off the ladder...oh well.
We certainly hung in there as long as we could, but in the end, the family owned business just can't go head to head with the superstore when it comes to big ticket items. Think "Home Depot" vs. "The Neighborhood Hardware Store".
So now I am a victim of the economy...but when one door closes, another opens...right?
Now, about those boat payments, fees for valet service, and the annual lease on the land for camp....

SA that is really terrible, I wish you the best of luck in finding a position that will allow you to enjoy the things in life that you have worked hard for.

Like you, I have been through a few downturns in the economy. One of them ended up pushing me toward a new career. I hope it works out for you as well.

Best wishes

[Skip]

Let me add to the list of those expressing sympathy for your plight, and the demise of the local business you devoted so much of your life too.....

Its truly ashame to read stories such as yours, and it really jumps out at you when it happens to one of your friends, even though our friendship is internet related. It truly personalizes and puts a face to the mind numbing statistics that I read daily on-line and in the print press.

I wish you the best and am sure you will come out stronger in the end....

Skip

[hazelnut]

sa that is a bummer! Whereabouts do you reside full time. I'm not sure if you mentioned that to me. Might as well start networking right here on the forum. Ya never know who knows someone who knows someone....

Perhaps a job as a book reviewer is in order... You've done well by me that's for sure.

BTW, I'm finished with #3 and moving on to #4 in the series. Thanks again!

[twoplustwo]

...I hope a new opportunity is right around the corner. This economy is rough - I was laid off in October and have yet to find a full time job. I'm putting in time at 3 part-time jobs while I try to hang on. My husband builds houses for a living, so you can imagine what that's been like the past year. I've never seen anything like this. We keep telling each other things will turn around, we have to hang on to hope. We don't have much left to hang on to!!

May that window open as the door closes.

[jmen24]

sa, thats is a shame to hear. It seems like every week I hear of someone new that has lost work. Keep your head up and better things will come from it.

[ILoveWinnipesaukee]

sa, as one that is 6 months removed from the "one door closes another opens" point, I am still looking for work myself. I know you cannot see the "things happen for a reason" issue right now, but believe me, it is for the best, you will never know while you live on this earth why you needed to lose the job at the point in time you did.

Maybe something bigger and better will come your way that you would not have even considered had you been working happily at your old job. Keep your chin up, and remember, even though it does not seem like it now, but there are people worse off than ourselves.

I will keep you in my prayers to find work quick along with myself and others in this forum who are in the same boat. Too bad we are not on a boat on the lake right now, but being among "friends" who know how we feel seems to help.

[sa meredith]

I am simply floored by the kind words offered here on this forum...some by people I have never even met.
The post I made was simply meant to add to the "Bad Economy" aspect of the thread...but the responses are quite a different thing. And to be honest, make me a bit emotional...during what is already a very emotional time.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Being in sales for 22 years has certainly "hardened" me as a person, so I like to think I'll come out just fine.
It's just that, well, who wants to start out again at 42 Yrs old?
Uncharted territory for me...that's all.
Anyway...weather permitting, I'm going to try to bring the boat into Meredith Bay tommorow (blue and white Crown Line Bow Rider) at 8:30AM or so, hit George's for breakfast, and enjoy a bloody mary or two on the boat after. If anyone is in the area, and feels the need to quench their thirst, stop over and climb aboard. If it is rainy...well probably a no go.
Hazelnut...going to try to cruise over your way tommorow (Friday), late morning...I'll call your cell.
Again...thanks for the words of encouragement.
The forum comes thru yet again.

It is sad to read of the more and more people that the Stimulus is failing to help. Where are all these new and saved jobs? Where is all this debt we are leaving for our kids being used to our benefit? Perhaps if you want to go to work for Acorn recruiting illegal aliens to register under several different names to vote for the local Democratic candidates you can find some work. And while it is little consolation, the good side to being unemployed is that you get to send less of your earnings to DC to be redistributed. And now you can join the millions more that become dependents of society every day...now a majority of us. This is really sad.
I lost my job last year, but have been able to make more money shorting the stock market. Even as it inches back up in this phone recovery, there are many opportunities to turn the bad economy into a profit. It is unfortunate we have to turn to tactics like this to get by if we aren't willing to go on the dole. Socialism has its benefits though...pretty soon jobs will be unnecessary.
Sorry for the rant, but you pushed my button with this.

[jrc]

SA I found Linkedin to be a very good way to find old co-workers and network for new opportunities.

It can be very stressful trying to find a job and getting depressed is possible. You're only 42, you have plenty of time to do whatever you want.

Now is the time when you find out who your true friends are. A friend of mine just got layed off, luckly I could scramble a contract job for him, at least he has something to keep him afloat while he plans his next step. Maybe your friends have similar opportunities.

As a salesmen, you already know how to sell, your new job is to sell yourself. Sounds corny but it is true.

[Argie's Wife]

I'm so sorry about your job situation and hope you find something that exceeds your expectations.

I'll raise my bloody Mary to you tonight and wish you every good success in your job hunt efforts.

[Fishy Cover]

I majored in Economics in college and remember these definitions:

RECESSION: When your neighbor loses his job
DEPRESSION: When you lose your job.

I am self employed and thus cannot be laid off or fired.....nevertheless business is slow. And I can't blame the management!

They said " Smile, things could be worse" so I smiled----and things got worse.

Hope a little humor helps you cope.

[eillac@dow]

SA-

I wrote to you saying that I (also) had been let go after 21 years...something we both have in common.

Another thing we have in common...I was also 42. And let me tell you....I was scared to death. I thought it was the worst thing in the world. Low and behold, I found a new job and am much happier. You will do ok. Give it time and please....don't stress yourself out. Your in sales and like JRC said, you know how to sell...so just go sell everything you've have got to offer. You will be okay!.

Best.

Eillac@dow

[Meredith lady]

Times are tough all over and everyone is trying to make ends meet-hope you find something really soon!

[Chowdaguy]

Sa what industry do you have experience in?

[Winnigirl]

I'm so sorry sa! A job hunting site that I have found particularly helpful is www.indeed.com. Best of luck to you!

[SIKSUKR]

You can always help me park cars SA.You know where it is.

[fatlazyless]

Here's a letter to the editor from the Friday October 2, Laconia Daily Sun that caught my attention. Interesting that a recent poll as reported on CNN had Wal-Mart as being the one national company best representing the current US economy....or something like that(?).
.....

"Sadly, we just can't afford to shop at our local stores anymore"

To the editor,

This is an open letter to all our local merchants.

I never ever thought I would be writing a letter like this but I feel that it is important to let the local merchants know why we can no longer 'totally' support them.

For years we refused to shop at stores like Walmart (sorry to pick on one store but I think it's important for my story) because we thought it's important to support the folks in our local community. Even if we paid a 'little more' for things we believed it was worth it because we were helping our neighbors and our friends and we always argued that they were good to the local community so we had to be supportive of them.

For the past 15 years we have been on a fixed income and we find that prices keep going up and up and up at a rate that we find we can no longer justify that thinking.

In fact, our very favorite restaurant that we have been supportive since the seventies (when we first stated to come up here) has finally out-priced itself to the point that we can no longer afford to go there! (We used to go there a couple times a month for years, then about six times a year since we retired). Now we can only go there if we receive a gift certificate! How sad is that?

We don't mind paying a 'little more for things' but we can no longer justify paying 20 cents more for an ear of corn or $2 more for a pint of strawberries and we are truly sorry about that.

We can no longer afford to do all our shopping at our local grocery store because even simple things like a bag of potato chips can be $1.50 less, in fact almost everything is a dollar or more less at a store like Walmart.

Like I said, we never minded paying 'a little' more but we just can't afford to pay 'a lot more'. And we are truly sorry about that.

Just wanted to let you know why you don't see us as often anymore. It's not that we don't like you and it's not that we don't want to support you it's just that we can't afford you anymore.

Had to get it off my mind!
Patricia Keegan
Center Harbor

[Yosemite Sam]

Studies show that for every two jobs created by a Wal-Mart store, the community loses three. Jobs that are retained by a community are merely shifted from local businesses to the giant retailer. A Congressional Research Service warned Congress that communities need to evaluate the significance of any job gains at big-box stores against any loss of jobs due to reduced business at competing retailers. The report also pointed out that these so-called new jobs "provide significantly lower wages then jobs in many industries, and are often only part-time positions, seasonal opportunities, or subject to extensive turnover." The Real Story is that when Wal-Mart moves into the neighborhood, it devours local businesses and lowers community living standards.

[LakesRegionSpirit]

A columnist writing for the Concord Monitor writing about her experiences subsequent to her husband losing his job makes the same point as the Daily Sun letter writer. She used to shop the Concord Co-op but now goes to Wal-Mart and saves a lot of money.

I think this is the next big issue for local economies. Consumers can not be expected to continue to pay a premium for shopping at local businesses when their incomes are being lost.

I say this as someone who has, so far, shopped at Beans & Greens, Sunflowers, Wine'ing Butcher etc.

I have considered heading to Wal-Mart to check out their selection of organic products.

[BroadHopper]

I use to make good money and never worry about what items cost or think twice about going out.
I lost my job last year. Thirty three years in the defense electronics industry and my first lay off. Thanks to the democrats. I'm 59 with profound loss of hearing it has been extrremely difficult to get a job. Discrimination laws means nothing unless you can prove it. My resume is so strong, I don't have a problem getting interviews. I can never get past the initial interviews.
Indeed.com is a great place to find jobs. I do find a lot of job postings thst are old and already filled. There are also people 'fishing' by posing as jobs so beware! Be careful who you send your resume to.
Linkedin was valuable. I did get some interviews, but it is a great motivator when you realize you are not alone. Linkedin gives me great insight into where the jobs are.
Another great place to find jobs is the job board at the local college and or community college. This will tell you that there is age discrimination. Most of these jobs are not posted on the internet.
I rarely go out. I do take adavantage of coupons.com and restuarant.com T-Bones/Cactus Jack has a 55 plus program that helps. AARP is also a big help in finding travel discounts. I have traveled to NC, TX, GA, and CO for job interviews with well known corporations.
I checked out Goodwill last spring and I was very surprised as to what you can find there. Like TJ Maxx you need to dig deep to find the quality bargains.
Although Wally World (Super Walmart) may be limited in gourmet items it is great place to get staples. Market Basket is cheaper but the nearest one is in Concord.
Rite Aid is the best place for medicine and toiletries.
I just can't afford to shop 'local' on my unemployment check. I wish the 'locals' good luck as small businesses is what America is all about. Hopefully the economy will turn soon.

[dpg]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

I use to make good money and never worry about what items cost or think twice about going out.
I lost my job last year. Thirty three years in the defense electronics industry and my first lay off. Thanks to the democrats. I'm 59 with profound loss of hearing it has been extrremely difficult to get a job. Discrimination laws means nothing unless you can prove it. My resume is so strong, I don't have a problem getting interviews. I can never get past the initial interviews.
Indeed.com is a great place to find jobs. I do find a lot of job postings thst are old and already filled. There are also people 'fishing' by posing as jobs so beware! Be careful who you send your resume to.
Linkedin was valuable. I did get some interviews, but it is a great motivator when you realize you are not alone. Linkedin gives me great insight into where the jobs are.
Another great place to find jobs is the job board at the local college and or community college. This will tell you that there is age discrimination. Most of these jobs are not posted on the internet.
I rarely go out. I do take adavantage of coupons.com and restuarant.com T-Bones/Cactus Jack has a 55 plus program that helps. AARP is also a big help in finding travel discounts. I have traveled to NC, TX, GA, and CO for job interviews with well known corporations.
I checked out Goodwill last spring and I was very surprised as to what you can find there. Like TJ Maxx you need to dig deep to find the quality bargains.
Although Wally World (Super Walmart) may be limited in gourmet items it is great place to get staples. Market Basket is cheaper but the nearest one is in Concord.
Rite Aid is the best place for medicine and toiletries.
I just can't afford to shop 'local' on my unemployment check. I wish the 'locals' good luck as small businesses is what America is all about. Hopefully the economy will turn soon.

Broadhopper - is retirement an option? While you were making "good money" did you worry about putting away what you should of for the "rainy day" we all hear about? How about a 401K, did you have one? Not trying to be nosy just wondering about other options. I to work in the defense industry and your right, I would imagine 59 is not an easy age to find a new job.

[VtSteve]

Outside of construction and Home Depot type jobs, most of the jobs created this decade were in government, health care, and services. We all know how the financial services industry did. Government, both federal and state, continue to grow. Health care, especially in administration, has had unparalleled growth. But as health care grows, it just costs more and more. If everyone is working in health care and government, that could pose a problem?

Defense has grown and will continue to be strong. Replacements are a big field, unfortunately, the number of companies in the field has shrunk. One of the problems facing many in the electronics area is one of obsolete parts. It takes so long for vendors to upgrade and test a new part, that many serious shortages develop. Believe it or not, this impacts many common things like AC130 and other aerospace programs. Cost cutting, middle manager cuts to continue to feed the greedy bulls at the top, not to mention Wall Street quarter to quarter thinkers, all play into this.

To make matters worse, senators have typically overruled the Pentagon on matters of pork and unwanted programs. Every program becomes a political bargaining chip. This is with senators of all political persuasion. This is why many necessary things fell behind, while things the military didn't want, continued to be funded. I know some folks older than you that could be in jeopardy at Norththrop Gruman. Dramatic military pork occurred in all administrations, and the most noticeable was this decade. It was noticable because the Pentagon was at odds with the military over which direction the structure would go in. Let's just say the military was correct, and a certain SOD was dead wrong.

The military has many firms working on electronics contracts and service contracts. Many of these firms hire contract workers from third party companies to manage entire programs. This has the effect of making government workforce appear smaller than it actually is, and probably does save costs. It also is easier for companies to downsize that way

North Carolina, Texas, Alabama, Florida all have many firms in these areas of expertise. Tech writers can do very well, and their are frequently great jobs available for electrical engineers, project managers and the like. The discrimination laws were, unfortunately, put into place by the Dems. Whistleblowers aren't as frequent anymore due to lack of government watchdog support, another area that needs to be both streamlined, and rebuilt.

From what I have seen, there should be pretty strong demand for electrical engineers, designers and the like. Like everything else, you'll have to go where they are, as you already know. Good luck my man.

[Airwaves]

A UNH economics professor says the recession is not over and tells the Foster Daily Democrat that when the economy does recover we will "crawl out of the hole, not jump out of it".

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by dpg

Broadhopper - is retirement an option? While you were making "good money" did you worry about putting away what you should of for the "rainy day" we all hear about? How about a 401K, did you have one? Not trying to be nosy just wondering about other options. I to work in the defense industry and your right, I would imagine 59 is not an easy age to find a new job.

Big penalty if I withdraw my pension before age 60. I don't have enough cash to make it to 60. The pension plan does not keep up with the times. The plan expect me to start social security at 65. because of my age, social security should start at 66 without penalty.

I put 3 girls through college. I have tuitions to pay. My divorce decree prevent me from giving the loans back to the girls.

I lost 60% of my 401K in the market. Also my company stocks went down about that much. I had royalties in the form of Nortel stocks. They went bankrupt and I lost it all.

I'm not ready to retire any way. I am still very much 'alive'. I want to continue what I have been doing until I feel I need to retire.

Thanks for asking. I'm sure there are others that want to retire. But can't afford to because of circumstances beyond their control.

[ILoveWinnipesaukee]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

Thanks to the democrats. I'm 59 with profound loss of hearing it has been extrremely difficult to get a job. Discrimination laws means nothing unless you can prove it. My resume is so strong, I don't have a problem getting interviews. I can never get past the initial interviews.
Indeed.com is a great place to find jobs. I do find a lot of job postings thst are old and already filled. There are also people 'fishing' by posing as jobs so beware! Be careful who you send your resume to.
Linkedin was valuable. I did get some interviews, but it is a great motivator when you realize you are not alone. Linkedin gives me great insight into where the jobs are.

Although Wally World (Super Walmart) may be limited in gourmet items it is great place to get staples. Market Basket is cheaper but the nearest one is in Concord.
Rite Aid is the best place for medicine and toiletries.
I just can't afford to shop 'local' on my unemployment check. I wish the 'locals' good luck as small businesses is what America is all about. Hopefully the economy will turn soon.

I left just the information I wanted to comment on, first off, you said that you lost your job last year, the democrats did not get into office until this year. I understand completely when you talk about no jobs, I have been out of work since March and am 51. I have many years of Office Management experience and get the interviews but keep being told I am over qualified for the positions. Most of them are entry level as the economy is not opening new oportunities but lower level expansion.

As for WalMart, I have always fought to stay above the poverty level with my husband on SSI since 1990 and me being the only bread winner. We survive by WalMart. I have checked prices on items compared to the local grocery store and WalMart, and WalMart cannot be beat. I save enough each week to survive.

I too hope the economy turns around, but wanted to put my two cents in to let you know you are not alone with the age issue.

[momof3]

As some of you know my husband was laid off last year for almost 11 months, he found a new job last fall and has been working steady, Thank god! It was a small pay cut but benefits are great and it is stable. We relied on my job for that extra help and in the fall and winter I would sometimes work 7 days a week, but I didn't mind, it helped the family and as most know "you do what you gotta do". Well , last Thursday October 1, I was told they no longer needed part time help, and all the days I covered would be filled by two full time people, makes no sense, they didn't have to give me benefits, days off, vacation, etc...but they went that route. Now the "extra days" I would work for extra income are gone...never mind my regular paycheck. Sent out resumes, heard nothing. We can only hang on for so long...however, I have strong faith, "God gives us what we can handle". I am reminded by my extremely loving parents when I feel depressed of all the blessings I have, and they are right!