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Old 04-14-2009, 12:03 AM   #1
livefreeordie
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Default Bad economy/speed limit=bad news for lake businesses

with the already bad economy and the new speed limit on the lake. I think the local restaurants and gas stations on the lake will def suffer huge losses this summer. I know lots of people that wont be going to dinner by boat any more do to the 25mph limit set at night. there is also a large group of people that are boycotting the lake do to this new law.

I hope the next two years fly by so we can get a more realistic law in place like speed limits in bays like Alton Bay, Paugus bay Ect. weekends only
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Old 04-14-2009, 12:11 AM   #2
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I heard/believe that the law is only being active for the 2009 season only. After this year, it is going back to no speed limit on the lake. This year is a probationary/ trial time to see how affective the "law" is to boaters
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Old 04-14-2009, 05:34 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by livefreeordie View Post
with the already bad economy and the new speed limit on the lake. I think the local restaurants and gas stations on the lake will def suffer huge losses this summer. I know lots of people that wont be going to dinner by boat any more do to the 25mph limit set at night. there is also a large group of people that are boycotting the lake do to this new law.

I hope the next two years fly by so we can get a more realistic law in place like speed limits in bays like Alton Bay, Paugus bay Ect. weekends only
Agree or disagree with the law, I haven't heard of anyone that will be boycotting going to dinner because they can't go faster than 25 mph at night. Even at that speed, which I will not exceed after dark anyway, the lake is only a 30-35 minute cruise from one end to the other.
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Old 04-14-2009, 07:36 AM   #4
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While I'm against the speed limit, I suspect the general economy will have the biggest impact on the local lake economy, and the the speed limit will hardly have any affect. I always felt that the economic arguments against a speed limit were silly.

That said, I have a list of the businesses that support a speed limit, and do avoid spending my money with them.
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Old 04-14-2009, 07:39 AM   #5
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I for one would love that list so that my family can make sure we don't support those businesses.
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Old 04-14-2009, 07:47 AM   #6
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Agree or disagree with the law, I haven't heard of anyone that will be boycotting going to dinner because they can't go faster than 25 mph at night. Even at that speed, which I will not exceed after dark anyway, the lake is only a 30-35 minute cruise from one end to the other.
My family plans to go out to dinner more, not less. We feel the experience will be more enjoyable than in the past. Maybe others will return as well.
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Old 04-14-2009, 07:50 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Dave R View Post
While I'm against the speed limit, I suspect the general economy will have the biggest impact on the local lake economy, and the the speed limit will hardly have any affect. I always felt that the economic arguments against a speed limit were silly.

That said, I have a list of the businesses that support a speed limit, and do avoid spending my money with them.
I too seriously doubt there are many, if any, folks that won't go out to dinner because they can't go over 25 mph at night. Yes, it's a silly law but that would be like biting off your nose to spite your face. What's the point?

I would, however, be interested in seeing that list, Dave. Can you you share it?
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:01 AM   #8
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Well I for one will do a lot more boating this season. Speed limit can only enhance the quality of the lake.
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:01 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Gatto Nero View Post
I too seriously doubt there are many, if any, folks that won't go out to dinner because they can't go over 25 mph at night. Yes, it's a silly law but that would be like biting off your nose to spite your face. What's the point?

I would, however, be interested in seeing that list, Dave. Can you you share it?
I would like to see the list also, You have to remember some people have boats that will not plain at 25 making the trip at night unsafe and in our mind will make even more of an impact on erosion
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:09 AM   #10
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Agree or disagree with the law, I haven't heard of anyone that will be boycotting going to dinner because they can't go faster than 25 mph at night. Even at that speed, which I will not exceed after dark anyway, the lake is only a 30-35 minute cruise from one end to the other.

OH my.. sorry to disagree.. I have talked to numerous people that said they will not be coming up because they do not want the hassel. It's a shame really....
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:18 AM   #11
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I will certainly be usung my boat as much if not more than usual. I to have heard a number of people that due to economic conditions will be boating alot less. It's a shame but should open up and ease congestion which will be fantastic. Heading to the boat shortlt for the day.
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:18 AM   #12
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I probably won't be going out to dinner much by boat, and certainly not to Wolfeboro or Alton (I live in the Weirs). I know of several people who feel the same way...

The problem is @ 25MPH my 26' boat is in transition... its not on plane, the nose is high, stern is squatted and I am pushing some serious water causing a monster wake. The boat absolutely GUZZLES gas at this speed....

I ran some tests last year with GPS, and the SLOWEST I could go without wallowing and coming off plane was 28MPH (GPS)... but this required me to first accellerate up to 34 MPH (GPS), drop the trim tabs, then throttle off to get down to 28 MPH. I doubt I will get a ticket using this method, but technically I would be in violation. If the MP witness me accelerate, they might hit the blues before I get a chance to get the tabs dropped and back off the throttle...

I dont really mind a night time speed limit, but 25 is just too low. My thoughts on the daytime limit are well documented!

Might be time to invest in radar detector.....

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Old 04-14-2009, 08:24 AM   #13
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It seems that the problem with the law, especially the nighttime speed limit, is that it was written by NON-BOATERS who do not boat on Winnipesaukee. That is absolutely absolutely ludicrous. If anyone of the nimwits who wrote the law IS a boater than they are a very BAD boater that had no business writing the law in the first place. 25 MPH sounds so warm and fuzzy but for most boats including runabouts such as mine it is almost impossible to do 25 MPH without falling off plane and causing and enormous wake! So are we all to plow around the lake all night causing monster swells?

This is going to be an interesting summer. I am looking forward to all the observations by forum members this summer.
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:25 AM   #14
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However, I also feel that from an economey standpoint there won't be much of an impact... other then maybe slightly on the gas pumps.. For all those people not coming there will be others that will come to support local businesses. They will still have to camp, eat etc. But I bet more people with smaller boats, kayaks, canoes etc will come where those spending hundreds if not thousands in gas won't be coming.

I am there either way... so see you out there!
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:35 AM   #15
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Unhappy Publicity

I don't think bad economy or the speed limit is the problem we are facing. I spent winters in CO and I spent the last 2 months on Lake Norman in NC. It is the publicity everyone is hearing that is destroying the reputation of the lake.
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:45 AM   #16
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I definitely think the bad economy is going to hurt the lake worse than the speed limit, although there will be some impact at the gas pumps and restaurants. When was the last time you saw a bunch of kayakers pull up to the town docks, go drop $500 on dinner then leave... I suspect the big charity poker runs will also be down in revenue because the big boys arent welcome here anymore. There is already an abundance of boat slips for rent and sale...

The average family boaters doesnt have (or will not spend) the money to come stay on Winni as they had in the past. Several families that I know of who would come for the summer are now coming for a month (and trying to rent out thier cottage when they arent using it), others who would come for 2 weeks are down to 1 week, and others are just going to day trip... All in all everyone is cutting back, and that impact will be felt here on Winni.

I suspect a very non-congested boating season, with business down all around...

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Old 04-14-2009, 08:46 AM   #17
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The cruise speed on my boat is about 26-27 mph. Anything less than that, I have to trim down, use more gas, and create a large wake(more erosion). More gas means less often going out to spend money at night. Usually I would go out during daylight, and return after dark. I keep my boat on Long Island so anywhere that serves dinner is a long cruise to be intentionally using more fuel than necessary.

I'd hope they wouldn't go after me for the little bit over, but if they are looking for a reason to pull someone over, well..............
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Old 04-14-2009, 09:01 AM   #18
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The cruise speed on my boat is about 26-27 mph. Anything less than that, I have to trim down, use more gas, and create a large wake(more erosion). More gas means less often going out to spend money at night. Usually I would go out during daylight, and return after dark. I keep my boat on Long Island so anywhere that serves dinner is a long cruise to be intentionally using more fuel than necessary.

I'd hope they wouldn't go after me for the little bit over, but if they are looking for a reason to pull someone over, well..............
well the good news is that I hear they are cutting MP force in half do to the bad times. there wont be many around to enforce the speed limit..... My radar detector will make its way to the boat every time I go out just to give me the heads up...
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Old 04-14-2009, 09:32 AM   #19
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I'm no supporter of the speed limit law, but I would also point out that 25MPH is the LIMIT. You can, in fact, go slower than this speed. And every hull design I've ever seen is more efficient at right around displacement speed than even when on plane (baring hydrofoils and the like).

If you can't get/stay on plane at 25MPH, then go slower, or stay home.

This sky-is-falling attitude about the speed limit law is really pathetic (sorry). And just like a speedlimit law on the streets, I would *highly* doubt that anyone is going to get a ticket for going 28 or 32MPH at night. These tickets, if any are actually written, are going to be very hard to enforce, with boat speedometers generally being very inaccurate.
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Old 04-14-2009, 10:06 AM   #20
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Brk...

You prove my point.... If i go at displacement speed say 6-8 MPH, a round trip from the Weirs to Meredith will be approximately 1 1/2-2 hours... add in an hour or so for dinner.... it turns into a 3 hour tour! While some nights this might be enjoyable, on others less so.

At displacement speed you can forget about going to Center Harbor, Wolfeboro or Alton!! I would have to leave at noon and hope to be back at midnight!

At this point it just becomes easier to take the car... and thats a shame!

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Old 04-14-2009, 10:08 AM   #21
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I'd hope they wouldn't go after me for the little bit over, but if they are looking for a reason to pull someone over, well..............
Since the MP opposed the speed limit law I doubt that they'll be aggressively enforcing it. No one is going to be out there with a radar gun looking to bag people going 5 MPH over.

We are now in a 2 year test period for the law. Let's see how it goes. Let's see what the level of enforcement is and how it really effects the economy. After 2 years we can let our thoughts be known to the legislature.

There is one huge problem. The NH legislature is now more Liberal than the Massachusetts legislature. Nanny state laws are flooding out of Concord almost faster than we can keep track. With this kind of thinking in the State House a continuation of the speed limit seems likely. What were NH voters thinking when they completely reversed course and discarded the small government, Conservative principles that served the state so well for so long?
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Old 04-14-2009, 10:53 AM   #22
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At this point it just becomes easier to take the car... and thats a shame!

Woodsy
Yup, so the real question is going to be will the potentially lost revenue from people who feel they can no longer take their boat to dinner someplace be offset by the people who now (supposedly) feel less endangered on the lake?

And, if you take the car instead of the boat, the economic impact becomes a zero-sum game...
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Old 04-14-2009, 11:02 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsy View Post
Brk...

You prove my point.... If i go at displacement speed say 6-8 MPH, a round trip from the Weirs to Meredith will be approximately 1 1/2-2 hours... add in an hour or so for dinner.... it turns into a 3 hour tour! While some nights this might be enjoyable, on others less so.

At displacement speed you can forget about going to Center Harbor, Wolfeboro or Alton!! I would have to leave at noon and hope to be back at midnight!

At this point it just becomes easier to take the car... and thats a shame!

Woodsy
I am in complete agreement with Woodsy on this. I can't go 15 MPH to 28 MPH in my 29' boat without a huge wake and huge fuel comsumption. I can go 25 MPH, but I have to plane first and I need to go 28 MPH to 30 MPH to get on plane. Therefore, there might be a night or two where a very slow ride to Meredith might make sense, but if there is any chance of thunderstorms or if it is cold, forget it. We will either stay home or take the car.

I do not pay the high taxes and property costs to live on the lake and take the car to dinner in the summer months. It just does not make sense to me. Therefore, we are much more likely to eat at home this summer than to take the car to dinner. We might eat more locally and walk.

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Old 04-14-2009, 11:32 AM   #24
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I did not support the limit either but always thought projecting economic effects of a limit or lack of one was ridiculous. The economy is too complex. Some fast power boaters might stay away, some people who like to putt around might come. There were no provable economic declines because of the faster boats on the lake. Everything was just speculation to support an agenda.

On the other hand I expect the economy to have a big effect. People may come to the lake but they will be looking for bargains. Cooking more of their own meals, dining at less expensive restaurants. That's why Walmart's profits are up while other retailers are down. People that can buy are being much more frugal. In a vacation area where people tend to splurge that will have a big effect. Someone walking into a craft shop who used to have the discretionary income to drop a couple hundred on some neat trinket will decide they can't afford it this year. They will set limits like only one day at the water slides or Funspot. Where they can they will be downscaling their activities. Shopping trips will be more for necessities and they will be looking for bargains. There may be just as many boats on the lake, gas after all is about half the price as last year. However it will be the activities after getting off the boat that will suffer.
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Old 04-14-2009, 12:25 PM   #25
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Yup, so the real question is going to be will the potentially lost revenue from people who feel they can no longer take their boat to dinner someplace be offset by the people who now (supposedly) feel less endangered on the lake?

And, if you take the car instead of the boat, the economic impact becomes a zero-sum game...
Both post in this thread from you are argumentative and contain ignorance. People including myself, Woodsy, R2B and others are posting factual statements considering the FACT that if we follow the law we can not enjoy our boats at night. FACT! No embellishment, no hearsay, no wild accusation just plain fact. We are merely pointing out a fact that as a bi-product of this law we can not obey the law and enjoy it. We can go 6-8 MPH at night and take several hours to do our trip or as YOU SAY we can break the law and go 32MPH and be looking over our shoulder the entire ride worrying that the MP doesn't pull us over. Well that sucks in OUR opinion. You are entitled to yours but I'd appreciate if you didn't dismiss our concerns as "pathetic."

Let me make something else VERY clear. I own a 26 foot BOWRIDER capable of a top speed of 47MPH. At night this boat will not stay on plane at 25MPH. So this law affects the Bow Rider family boat crowd just as much.
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Old 04-14-2009, 01:20 PM   #26
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Very well said. I believe you hit the nail on the head that not only one group of people (I now being part of that group) are adversley effected. But as long as the kayakers and canoers can go out in the middle of the broads at night all good..
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Old 04-14-2009, 01:23 PM   #27
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This is the list of speed limit supporting entities that Winnfabs published a few years ago during the HB162 days. It may be inaccurate today, but I still use it. Thank Winnfabs for putting it toghether, I'm just passing it along.

The Common Man
Ashalnd Insurance
Strictly Rentals
Wild Meadow Canoes and Kayaks
Centre Harbor Cellars
Center Harbor Inn
AMC (Appalachian Mountain Club)
NH Audubon
New Hampshire Lakes Association (NHLA)
Decker Machinery Company
The Architectural Studio
Fay’s Boat Yard
Birch Island Camp Association
Gilford Islands Association (GIA)
Jolly Island Association
Lockes Island Association
Belknap Landscaping Company
Design Quest
DK Net Design
E&S Insurance LLC
The Hair Factory
Mike’s Ala Carte Catering
Pepi Herrmann Crystal, Inc.
Glendale Marine
River Edge Marina
Squam Lakes Association (SLA)
Cottage Place on Squam Lake
Squam Lake Inn
Me Designs
Barrons Billiards
Blooms Vanity
J&J Printing
LaBelles Shoe Store
Central & Northern Title
Haughey, Philpot & Laurent
Lakeside Hotel Assoc.
Sundial Shops
Paugus Bay Marina
Best Western Silver Fox Inn
Griffin Bodi Krause
Municipal Resources, Inc.
Great Northern Trading Co
Meredith Marina
Y-Landing
Bear Island Conservation Association (BICA)
East Bear Island Conservation Association
AMC- 3 Mile Island
Winnipesaukee Rowing Club
Alexandria Lamp Shop
Case N’ Keg
Chris Dupont Painting
Christopher P. Williams, Architects
Eisenberg Chiropractic
Hawkins Photography
Hobo Railroad
Landscapes By Tom
League of NH Craftsmen
Mastiff Builders
Omni Signs
Patricia’s “Specially for You”
Pemi Glass Company
Pretty Petunias Garden Center
Remax Bay Side Real Estate
Remcon/North
Sagecliff Software, Inc.
The Village Perk
Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad
GASCO Realty, LLC
51 Main Street, LLc
Inns & Spa at Mill Falls
Meredith Bay Painting
The Lake House Grille
Lago
Camp
Town Docks Restaurant
Mame's
The Gallery at Mill Falls
Oglethorp
Guiseppies Resturant
Northern Air Trading
Lady of the Lake Clothing
Adorments
Creative Clothing
Christopher P. Williams, Architect
Oak Street Associates
Old Mill Insurance
Innisfree Bookstore
Phoenix Leasing, Inc.
Silver Top Ventures
Minuteman Plumbing & Heating
Sava Designs
Horn Insurance
Harts Restaurant
Fermentation Station LLC
Hunter's
Waukewan Antiques
Village Greenery
Etcetera Shop
Associated Surveyors
Moulton Farm
Barber Pole Association
Trexler’s Marina
Land’s End
Wyman Trail Association
Loon Preservation Committee
1st T Development Corporation
The Woodshed Restaurant
Castle in the Clouds
Amoskeg Insurance
EPTAM Plastics
The Common Man Inn
Corner House Inn
Seacoast Kayak
Tilton Veterinary Hospital
Waterville Valley Condo Rental
Thurston’s Marina
Lighthouse Inn
Weirs Beach Motel and Cottages
Van's Hotel Enterprises
Wolfboro Inn
Island Real Estate of New Hampshire
LB Boat Restoration
Millie B
Wolfeboro Trolley Company
Wolfetrap Restaurant
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Old 04-14-2009, 01:23 PM   #28
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Quote:
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Both post in this thread from you are argumentative and contain ignorance. People including myself, Woodsy, R2B and others are posting factual statements considering the FACT that if we follow the law we can not enjoy our boats at night. FACT! No embellishment, no hearsay, no wild accusation just plain fact. We are merely pointing out a fact that as a bi-product of this law we can not obey the law and enjoy it. We can go 6-8 MPH at night and take several hours to do our trip or as YOU SAY we can break the law and go 32MPH and be looking over our shoulder the entire ride worrying that the MP doesn't pull us over. Well that sucks in OUR opinion. You are entitled to yours but I'd appreciate if you didn't dismiss our concerns as "pathetic."

Let me make something else VERY clear. I own a 26 foot BOWRIDER capable of a top speed of 47MPH. At night this boat will not stay on plane at 25MPH. So this law affects the Bow Rider family boat crowd just as much.
You CAN enjoy your boat at night, although perhaps not in the manner you might be accustomed to. Perhaps this will change your desire to do things on the lake where you would have previously taken your boat out at night if you feel the only way your boat has any utility is at planing speed. If this is true, and you (and the others) spend a statistically significant amount of revenue in scenarios that involve your boat use after-hours, then I would encourage you to not partake in those activities this year by car OR boat so that the realistic economic impact of the speed limit law can be properly measured.

I did not dismiss your concerns as pathetic, I said that the approach to voicing them is pathetic (and I stand by that statement). Trying to predict some horrible doom and gloom scenario 2 days after ice-out is just a bit, IMO.

You take issue with my comments around going at 32MPH... Are you going to tell me that you do exactly the speed limit on all the roadways as well? Because you'd be the first person I've met that suddenly believes speed limits are both strictly followed, and strictly enforced, items.

So far you have not posted any FACTs that you cannot "enjoy" your boat at night. You have posted much opinion though. If you cannot see the distinction between these two things, there is little need to respond.
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Old 04-14-2009, 01:33 PM   #29
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I have a 25 foot boat, with a single-stepped hull, 24 degrees of deadrise at the transom, and terrible weight distribution due to the big block engine option. It's obviously a pretty bad combination for slow speed planing, but it'll easily plane out at 19 MPH with the tabs down, and 24 MPH (speeds measured with GPS, not the OEM speedometer) with the tabs retracted. I have a Bravo 3 drive, so I suppose that helps a lot, but I find it hard to believe there's many boats out there that really won't plane at 25 MPH.

Mine does get substantially better gas mileage from 28 MPH to 40 MPH compared to 25 MPH though (as measured with a Lowrance LMF-200). Literally, 40% better.
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Old 04-14-2009, 01:51 PM   #30
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All good points here.. Again, I don't think we will be able to judge, if at all, the limits will have effected the economy. Those in favor will say "The limits had no effect, the down turn was the economy in general". Those opposed will say "the business is down due to the limits etc etc" But when all is said and done there will be really no way to prove the economic impact what so ever. Most likely it will balance itself out.

As for the arguements concerning gas consumption.......... I will refer back to what my father and others have told me.... "If you are asking what you boat gets for MPG... You shouldn't buy a boat"

As you may have guessed or seen from prior threads I am Dead set against the limits. I think it is another law instituted on our freedoms. If current laws were enforced these never would have been instituted or needed (and still isn't IMO). Now the state has just another reason to ruin your good time.

The biggest mistake made was linking them to your MVR. I believe even the 150 foot rule is now linked as well as a moving violtation (don't quote me on that). Before, these infractions were money makers for the state. Out of staters and most in staters would normally just pay the fine for it wasn't in their best interests to fight it. Pay it and get it over with.. That is what I always did even when it was a bogus charge. A day off from work would cost a whole lot more then the simple fine. Now by linking them people will have to fight them. So this will flood our courts and cost the tax payers (not the out of staters) huge court fees. Plus as we have all read how it will be so difficult to prove. The 150 is an arbitrary "he said she said" law and the radars have proven to be inaccurate at best.

So with that said, This is going to be a very interesting year!
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Old 04-14-2009, 01:56 PM   #31
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Default Thats quite the list

I had a boat and loved it but did not have the time to use it anymore and I enjoy paddling more, you would not catch me on the big lakes anyway before or after the limits, I enjoy my nature a little more remote and quiet.

But.., that list has some organizations that do a considerable amount of good on and off the lake. The AMC for example has done more to protect the accessibility of and the pretection of, forests around the lakes region as well as the rest of New England. To say that you will not patronize anyone on that list is quite a leap into the deep end. I am not trying to get into it, just pointing out that not everyone on that list is "Evil", but by the same token that would mean you will not be stepping foot on any of the trails in New England this year because you would have a difficult time finding one that has not had AMC members working to make them better or keep them clean.

Like I said not trying to start anything, just wanting to point out the broader scope of your statement. I do not support the speed limit in anyway. End of disclaimer.

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Old 04-14-2009, 02:05 PM   #32
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Here we go again.Help.
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Old 04-14-2009, 02:14 PM   #33
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I had a boat and loved it but did not have the time to use it anymore and I enjoy paddling more, you would not catch me on the big lakes anyway before or after the limits, I enjoy my nature a little more remote and quiet.

But.., that list has some organizations that do a considerable amount of good on and off the lake. The AMC for example has done more to protect the accessibility of and the pretection of, forests around the lakes region as well as the rest of New England. To say that you will not patronize anyone on that list is quite a leap into the deep end. I am not trying to get into it, just pointing out that not everyone on that list is "Evil", but by the same token that would mean you will not be stepping foot on any of the trails in New England this year because you would have a difficult time finding one that has not had AMC members working to make them better or keep them clean.

Like I said not trying to start anything, just wanting to point out the broader scope of your statement. I do not support the speed limit in anyway. End of disclaimer.
I agree. I don't think the list is "evil" either. I still will go to dinner at many of the resturants. However, I will give those on the list credit for at least standing up for what they believe and advertising it. So many people hide their views and are willing to give support only if it is anonomous.

I absolutely do not support the limits, but I will not change where I am a patron because of these either. That will not solve anything.

It doesn't mean you can't mention it to the owner of the establishment if you have the chance to speak with them however.
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Old 04-14-2009, 02:19 PM   #34
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Posted by OCDACTIVE
"It doesn't mean you can't mention it to the owner of the establishment if you have the chance to speak with them however."

That is correct.
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Old 04-14-2009, 02:22 PM   #35
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Here we go again.Help.
It's like they were all waiting around the corner!
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Old 04-14-2009, 02:36 PM   #36
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I have a 25 foot boat, with a single-stepped hull, 24 degrees of deadrise at the transom, and terrible weight distribution due to the big block engine option. It's obviously a pretty bad combination for slow speed planing, but it'll easily plane out at 19 MPH with the tabs down, and 24 MPH (speeds measured with GPS, not the OEM speedometer) with the tabs retracted. I have a Bravo 3 drive, so I suppose that helps a lot, but I find it hard to believe there's many boats out there that really won't plane at 25 MPH.

Mine does get substantially better gas mileage from 28 MPH to 40 MPH compared to 25 MPH though (as measured with a Lowrance LMF-200). Literally, 40% better.
Dave...

That Bravo 3 Dual prop drive is the key.... it pushes alot of water very efficiently at lower speeds.... nothing pops a boat on plane better or quicker than the Merc Bravo 3 or Volvo Duoprop setup...

But like everything... there is a tradeoff to be made!

The dual props become less efficient at higher speeds... thats alot of blade area to spin and it requires sustantially more HP to spin the faster it goes... and water does not compress. All things being equal thats why the huge difference in gasoline consumption.

A high performance boat such as my 26' Donzi is setup (weighted, balanced, propped) to go fast... 67-69 MPH. But like everything else there is a tradeoff. The boat doesnt like 25 MPH... even with the tabs down! The propeller is cavitating, the stern squatting and the nose is high.. and the wake rivals a Carver! I am sure its compounded on the larger heavier high performance boats.

Its funny but everything settles down smoothly at 30-32 MPH. You wouldnt think 5-6 MPH would make a big difference but it does.

For the record.. I seriously doubt the MP is going to pull you over for going 30 MPH... but you never know.

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Old 04-14-2009, 02:38 PM   #37
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Since the MP opposed the speed limit law I doubt that they'll be aggressively enforcing it. No one is going to be out there with a radar gun looking to bag people going 5 MPH over.

We are now in a 2 year test period for the law. Let's see how it goes. Let's see what the level of enforcement is and how it really effects the economy. After 2 years we can let our thoughts be known to the legislature.

There is one huge problem. The NH legislature is now more Liberal than the Massachusetts legislature. Nanny state laws are flooding out of Concord almost faster than we can keep track. With this kind of thinking in the State House a continuation of the speed limit seems likely. What were NH voters thinking when they completely reversed course and discarded the small government, Conservative principles that served the state so well for so long?
I am 100% in agreement with you. I moved to NH to get away from Mass... But it seems we have been over run.

The testing period is an absolute joke.... The had the intial testing last year. The winfabs pushed for the testing zones to prove how many "fast boats" are out there going at ludicris speed (any spaceballs fans out there?)... Anyway, once the data started coming in where there were almost no one going over 50mph they changed their tactics. They asked for the test to be called off for it wasn't showing accurate data (so they claimed) and started saying things like "see the limits do work. Because people knew they were being gunned they didnt go fast"

No matter what people will use data to show support of their cause.

I am just so fed up with the state and its liberal legislature that I feel nothing can be done. Logic and reason have been thrown right out the window.
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Old 04-14-2009, 02:41 PM   #38
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OMG!!!! They have gone PLAID!!!!
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Old 04-14-2009, 02:43 PM   #39
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Very well said. I believe you hit the nail on the head that not only one group of people (I now being part of that group) are adversley effected. But as long as the kayakers and canoers can go out in the middle of the broads at night all good..
I thought it was law that you need bow and stern lights at night?

Who in their "right " mind would be in the broads with a kayak or canoe?
Maybe some drunk or crackhead!


Why is it that the large boat owners that reside on and use the Lake, think the lake belongs only to them!!!

Everyone has the right to be safe on the lake, the lack of respect that I've experienced by those big boats while fishing is unbelievable.

The bottom line is, if everyone showed the respect to one another as they maintain, there would be NO need for any additional laws!

I also don't think anyone will be stopped for going 10mph over in a safe way, but just the passing of the law will undoubtably make people more aware of what they're doing and will make the lake safer for all.
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Old 04-14-2009, 02:44 PM   #40
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OMG!!!! They have gone PLAID!!!!
ROTFLMAO!!!!!! nice Woodsy!!!! So when does the naswa open?
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Old 04-14-2009, 02:50 PM   #41
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I thought it was law that you need bow and stern lights at night?

Who in their "right " mind would be in the broads with a kayak or canoe?
Maybe some drunk or crackhead!


Why is it that the large boat owners that reside on and use the Lake, think the lake belongs only to them!!!

Everyone has the right to be safe on the lake, the lack of respect that I've experienced by those big boats while fishing is unbelievable.

The bottom line is, if everyone showed the respect to one another as they maintain, there would be NO need for any additional laws!
lights at night... You wouldn't believe this but I saw a battery powered clamp on lights for kayaks and canoes.

Ready for this.... 4th of July 3 years ago.. Crusing in a fountain in choppy weather. Probably going 40 - 45 mph... Nothing major... There were good 2-3 foot waves with cross wakes everywhere.. Just enjoying a nice jont down the center of the broads where we were going to stop an chill out. RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE of the broads is 2 eight foot BLUE Kayakers with BLUE life jackets one. Absolute stupidity. I don't care if you are going 25, 40, 45 or 60 this was tough to see in these conditions... So yes I think your crackhead comment would apply!

I have a big boat that is fast, I have a little boat 17 foot center consol fishing boat, and a 26 foot party boat at my dock. With respect and common sense there is no need for restrictions. And no I don't think I own the lake because I have a bigger faster boat. I know when and how to use it very well and IMO the broads is a perfect place to do that. Not in the bays where you have weekend warriors and major congestion.
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Old 04-14-2009, 02:53 PM   #42
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For those new to this forum I want to point out this post. This topic was closed for many reasons including an overwhelming amount of complaints from members. It is fine to comment on the future impact of the law or the current enforcement but what I am seeing are the same few people making the same points and going down the same paths that were repeated so often last time that I finally had to put a lid on it. If you are really interested in this topic you can read these same points repeated endlessly in the Speed Limit sub-forum.

I'm very close to closing this thread as well. We will not have a repeat of the bickering that dragged this forum down for so long.

Again, please feel free to comment on the future economic impact, enforcement and other personal observations. Just please don't again argue the merits of the law. The law passed, that debate is over. Save it for 2011.

I've got my finger on the "Close" button.
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:27 PM   #43
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Will be interesting to see what happens in the derby this year. Never been to one but assume a lot of the guys run to different areas real fast. Maybe we should have a pool on how many tix are given out by MP?

We can only wait and see what the impact will be on the economy but as bad as it is now I don't see the speed limit making it much worse. Maybe a few years ago but not today.
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:45 PM   #44
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I had started a thread awhile back about the poker runs... I also think that since it is geared more towards the "go fast boats" it may take a hit as far as attendance. Which not only hurts the economy but easter seals as well. What a shame.
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Old 04-14-2009, 09:01 PM   #45
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Speed limit or not the lake will be less crowded this year, you can't have 8% unemployment and not hit a few boaters. Plus fear, uncertainty and doubt will force a bunch more to convert their "fun" money to "just in case I get laid off" money.

As a side note. I've been scouting out a kayak or small canoe for just a little fun and fishing. Everywere I shop down in southern NH, they say I'm crazy to use a paddle boat on Winnipesaukee, it's so bad up there they had to put a speed limit in. So that campaign will have some effect as well.
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Old 04-14-2009, 11:00 PM   #46
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Don, thank you for mentioning a key word in your post...enforcement. I think that when the dust settles in 2011 we will see how "unenforceable" this piece of legislation was from a practical standpoint. Money, equipment, training and manpower will ultimately set the course for this law. My opinion is, that in the end, we will see how little there was to have worried about.
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Old 04-15-2009, 06:44 AM   #47
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This thread just cannot end well. Push that close button Mr. Webmaster before the rest of the SL gang wakes up.
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Old 04-15-2009, 07:37 AM   #48
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Default Hold that thought...

From this morning's MSN Money:

Quote:
"...There were 7,843 commercial bankruptcy filings in March, according to AACER, a bankruptcy data management company. That's up 23% from the previous month and a staggering 65% from a year earlier. And the number of filings is accelerating..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by livefreeordie View Post
"...I think the local restaurants and gas stations on the lake will def suffer huge losses this summer..."
So why would you think that?
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Old 04-15-2009, 08:28 AM   #49
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This thread just cannot end well. Push that close button Mr. Webmaster before the rest of the SL gang wakes up.
I disagree. I feel that whether we like it or not it will it very much part of the lake and will need to be discussed. I think as pointed out the merits of the law have been beaten like a dead horse but how it is enforced and if it is taking a toll on the lakes economy is a very important topic that should be discussed.

It will be tough because it is such a Hot Topic. But something that needs to be discussed none the less.
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Old 04-15-2009, 09:02 AM   #50
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Default Really. Do you mean that??!!

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I disagree. I feel that whether we like it or not it will it very much part of the lake and will need to be discussed. I think as pointed out the merits of the law have been beaten like a dead horse but how it is enforced and if it is taking a toll on the lakes economy is a very important topic that should be discussed.

It will be tough because it is such a Hot Topic. But something that needs to be discussed none the less.
Honestly, you can't be serious. I mean, I love a spirited discussion more than most. Even one that becomes an argument.
But this topic? Although I am neutral on it (very seldom do I travel over 40 MPH, and never go out at night) , I read most of the posts about the speed limits. But they have long since turned into the same regurgitated garbage over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again! All this thread is, is a disguise to start it up again. Anyone can see this.
I mean, the speed limit being bad for business?????? Business is, and going to be, way way off this year. Probably fatal for many places. And the speed limit has little, if anything to do with it.
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Old 04-15-2009, 09:05 AM   #51
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This thread just cannot end well. Push that close button Mr. Webmaster before the rest of the SL gang wakes up.
I agree, I can not see this thread ending well either............
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Old 04-15-2009, 09:38 AM   #52
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Default My Marina

Spoke to the owner of our marina the other day and its only half full with paying customers as of last weekend. I think its going to be a slow quiet summer on the lake.
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Old 04-15-2009, 09:48 AM   #53
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I disagree. I feel that whether we like it or not it will it very much part of the lake and will need to be discussed. I think as pointed out the merits of the law have been beaten like a dead horse but how it is enforced and if it is taking a toll on the lakes economy is a very important topic that should be discussed.

It will be tough because it is such a Hot Topic. But something that needs to be discussed none the less.
Just found out a friends of our just sold his boat because of all this. He said he does not want the hassle of getting pulled over because his boat looks like it's dong 80 at 40mph. He said he spent 5-10k on feul a summer, and 500 on a reserved spot at the poker run. He even used to take all the NASCAR teams out on rides to show them our great lake.
I always thought I would spend my whole life on this lake but if this sticks in two years. I will raise my family some other place.
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Old 04-15-2009, 10:18 AM   #54
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I've got my finger on the "Close" button.
Hopefully sooner rather than later.
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Old 04-15-2009, 10:27 AM   #55
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Hopefully sooner rather than later.
This is a open forum I think this is a great topic for everyone to discuss.
Let's stay on topic everyone so this thread will stay.
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Old 04-15-2009, 10:29 AM   #56
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Spoke to the owner of our marina the other day and its only half full with paying customers as of last weekend. I think its going to be a slow quiet summer on the lake.

Quick story. We received our invoice this year, along with the annual letter, explaining: "hey, pay now, pay in full, no launches if any outstanding balances, and oh, by the way...due to OUR EXTENSIVE WAITING LIST, pay by the due date, or come get your boat." So, we did our duty and mailed the check 2 days before the dead line. This is for valet service by the way.
And the fact of the matter is that we really could have used another month or two to pay in full. But, not wanting to lose our spot, as we actually do love the place, we moved some things around, and got it paid on their requested date. Now, there are a lot of ways to ask for money in this economy, and I think the way they did it was crappy. How about this:
"Although we realize many of our valued customers are facing uncertain times, we must request payment, in full, by (whatever date), as our fine marina has many obligations we need to stay up with. We ask for your understanding in this matter. Any questions should be directed to the 'such and such'..." Much nicer than "hey, pay now. We have 12 people behind you waiting for your spot!"
The rest of the story:
I had 2 people call the day I mailed the check, and continue to have people call every 7 or 8 days, and guess what? They all get the same response.
"Plenty of room. When would you like to drop your boat off?"
What happened to the waiting list?????
I will say this, however. Noone has been offered a discount. Noone. Price has remained uniform, and all callers have been told the money is due in full. So, it is fair. I just didn't like the tone of the letter.
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Old 04-15-2009, 10:29 AM   #57
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I mean, the speed limit being bad for business?????? Business is, and going to be, way way off this year. Probably fatal for many places. And the speed limit has little, if anything to do with it.
You're 100% right on that one. And the same goes for all the melodrama over poker runs and charity. One poster was commenting on how the Easter Seals will lose out because of the new law (and by implication, sick children) and what a shame it is. In reality, charities are fortunately quite adept at raising money and as the saying goes, when one door shuts, another opens. Within the confines of the new law there will be plenty(perhaps more and better) of opportunities to raise money. I look forward to some of the positive aspects of the new law that we'll see.
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Old 04-15-2009, 10:41 AM   #58
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Honestly, you can't be serious. I mean, I love a spirited discussion more than most. Even one that becomes an argument.
But this topic? Although I am neutral on it (very seldom do I travel over 40 MPH, and never go out at night) , I read most of the posts about the speed limits. But they have long since turned into the same regurgitated garbage over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again! All this thread is, is a disguise to start it up again. Anyone can see this.
I mean, the speed limit being bad for business?????? Business is, and going to be, way way off this year. Probably fatal for many places. And the speed limit has little, if anything to do with it.
Here is a great example as to why this topic is good to discuss. As a kid I worked at sandy point as a dock boy on weekends. I would get 10-25 boats a night all larger boats from other ends of the lake. I can't see any more than 5% of those people making the trip this year becaus of the 25mph. Most won't come by car do to how long it takes to drive there.
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Old 04-15-2009, 10:41 AM   #59
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Dave...

That Bravo 3 Dual prop drive is the key.... it pushes alot of water very efficiently at lower speeds.... nothing pops a boat on plane better or quicker than the Merc Bravo 3 or Volvo Duoprop setup...

But like everything... there is a tradeoff to be made!

The dual props become less efficient at higher speeds... thats alot of blade area to spin and it requires sustantially more HP to spin the faster it goes... and water does not compress. All things being equal thats why the huge difference in gasoline consumption.

A high performance boat such as my 26' Donzi is setup (weighted, balanced, propped) to go fast... 67-69 MPH. But like everything else there is a tradeoff. The boat doesnt like 25 MPH... even with the tabs down! The propeller is cavitating, the stern squatting and the nose is high.. and the wake rivals a Carver! I am sure its compounded on the larger heavier high performance boats.

Its funny but everything settles down smoothly at 30-32 MPH. You wouldnt think 5-6 MPH would make a big difference but it does.

For the record.. I seriously doubt the MP is going to pull you over for going 30 MPH... but you never know.

Woodsy
I knew it helped, but did not realize it helped that much.

You know a B3 lower gearcase bolts right up to a B1 upper gearcase, right? Might be worth picking one up on eBay while the 45/25 law is in effect and you can't really use the top end of the B1. A 1.5:1 ratio B1 upper gearcase would be a 2:1 ratio with a B3 lower bolted on, if memory serves. The swap takes mere minutes.
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Old 04-15-2009, 10:44 AM   #60
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Dave...

I have been looking for a deal on a B3 lower for awhile.... but they dont give them (or the propellers) away! LOL!

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Old 04-15-2009, 11:05 AM   #61
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Here is a great example as to why this topic is good to discuss. As a kid I worked at sandy point as a dock boy on weekends. I would get 10-25 boats a night all larger boats from other ends of the lake. I can't see any more than 5% of those people making the trip this year becaus of the 25mph. Most won't come by car do to how long it takes to drive there.
You see...my larger point is this.....You're right. People are not going to come this year. But here's the news. It has nothing to do with speed limits!!!!!
Yeah, people have pride. So they will indeed say foolish things like "we skipped the boat this year. Damn speed limits! Gonna leave it sitting for the summer." or " Yeah, we don't travel much at night for dinner. It takes too long with the new speed limits." They will say these things because they have pride. What they really mean is, "money is very tight, so we are cutting back for a while".
The Speed Limit is a very nice, convient scape goat.
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Old 04-15-2009, 11:45 AM   #62
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Honestly, you can't be serious. I mean, I love a spirited discussion more than most. Even one that becomes an argument.
But this topic? Although I am neutral on it (very seldom do I travel over 40 MPH, and never go out at night) , I read most of the posts about the speed limits. But they have long since turned into the same regurgitated garbage over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again! All this thread is, is a disguise to start it up again. Anyone can see this.
I mean, the speed limit being bad for business?????? Business is, and going to be, way way off this year. Probably fatal for many places. And the speed limit has little, if anything to do with it.
Honestly I am quite serious... It is not a disguise but a true discussion. whether speculative or not at this point, it is something that is of a concern. I do agree the economy overall will have much more of an impact but you can't rule out the possibility that this will end up impacting certain, not all, but certain industries around the lake. Discussing them is a topic that can and should be discussed if people want to. If you feel it has been discussed over and over again, then feel free 'not' to participate.

Since it has just started and the season has just begun it is difficult to say that it has already been discussed because people now are beginning to make their summer plans and may voice whether or not the limits are a deciding factor in their vacation plans.

If you feel the limits will have little or nothing to do with it that is your valid opinion. I don't see why it is a problem if I or others want to voice theirs. Or come on and explain what they have been hearing from family and friends.

I agree the thread can lead to the same old arguments but that is why Mr. Webmaster stepped in to make sure it stays on topic.

The other topic that has been brought up but not discussed in your previous post was enforcement. This is also going to be an important item to look at over this coming season. I also think discussing peoples views and observations (now that the economy has played a large role in cutting back on MP funding) will be important.

On a side bar I think people supporting would like no discussion to take place so that if there are issues no one hears about them.. But that is my 2 cents
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Old 04-15-2009, 11:50 AM   #63
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You see...my larger point is this.....You're right. People are not going to come this year. But here's the news. It has nothing to do with speed limits!!!!!
Yeah, people have pride. So they will indeed say foolish things like "we skipped the boat this year. Damn speed limits! Gonna leave it sitting for the summer." or " Yeah, we don't travel much at night for dinner. It takes too long with the new speed limits." They will say these things because they have pride. What they really mean is, "money is very tight, so we are cutting back for a while".
The Speed Limit is a very nice, convient scape goat.
Again a very good point that is speculative. You can not say that is the case for everyone. I know of many people with bigger faster boats and are not hurting what so ever $ wise, that have decided they do not need the hassel and will go elsewhere. In such a tight economy any small business owner will tell you every little bit helps.

I am sure you are right that there are people who will use it as a scape goat and pointing that out in this thread is your right. And I think others who may disagree with you deserve to be heard as well.

nothing personal.
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Old 04-15-2009, 12:03 PM   #64
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You're 100% right on that one. And the same goes for all the melodrama over poker runs and charity. One poster was commenting on how the Easter Seals will lose out because of the new law (and by implication, sick children) and what a shame it is. In reality, charities are fortunately quite adept at raising money and as the saying goes, when one door shuts, another opens. Within the confines of the new law there will be plenty(perhaps more and better) of opportunities to raise money. I look forward to some of the positive aspects of the new law that we'll see.

Yes charitable organizations are pros at fund raising. They may be able to adapt. However the poker runs have been a proven successful way of raising money. My point is it is a shame that something that was so successful and brought many people to the lake may not be as successful this year due to the topic at hand.

Charitable organizations are taking a tremendous hit regardless due to the economy, I feel this just makes it even harder. Again just my own opinion.
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Old 04-15-2009, 01:36 PM   #65
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Default ....the weather rules!

Any way you can slice this thread about what drives the local lake economy.....a gallon of gasoline...speed limits...overall economy....price on scrap metal going to South Korea...ozone levels...or President Obama....toss it all into the local mix and what really rules the summer lakes region, business economy is the weekend weather, along with the mid-week weather. It is far & away, the 8000lb King Kong guerrilla around these here parts, and it's all about the weather.

Fast boat, slow boat, sailboat, canoe or a swimmer: it's got to be the weather that matters the most.


Last three summers of 2006, 2007, & 2008 were all rain & clouds & cold from May 15 - August 15. Based on the law of averages and the old adage of 'a cold winter = a hot summer', this coming summer is predicted to be a hotter and sunnier summer.

Three cheers for this summer's terrific boating weather!
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Old 04-15-2009, 01:57 PM   #66
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Dave...

I have been looking for a deal on a B3 lower for awhile.... but they dont give them (or the propellers) away! LOL!

Woodsy

Yeah, they are not cheap, but if top speed is not a priority, a nice upgrade. You can get deals now and then on craigslist.

My boat model is actually faster with a small block and a B1, but I like longevity and effortless cruising RPM of the big block, and the control of the B3
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Old 04-15-2009, 02:11 PM   #67
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Sounds like the Me Generation is upset!!

I don't understand why 45 mph is such a problem , how fast do you need to go?

I've been on the lake at night and most of the time you can't see your hand in front of you, why would one need to be out there going fast?

I applaude those that understand and will do their part in making the Lake safer and more enjoyable for all.
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Old 04-15-2009, 02:26 PM   #68
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Sounds like the Me Generation is upset!!

I don't understand why 45 mph is such a problem , how fast do you need to go?

I've been on the lake at night and most of the time you can't see your hand in front of you, why would one need to be out there going fast?

I applaude those that understand and will do their part in making the Lake safer and more enjoyable for all.
Off topic but I respect your opinion.
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Old 04-15-2009, 02:56 PM   #69
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Default unfortunate timing, no matter how you look at it

I'm a supporter of a speed limit on the Lake (maybe not exactly the bill that's in force now), and I have to say that it's really unfortunate that the speed limit has gone into effect during this severe economic downturn.

As this thread has already demonstrated, when the renewal of the bill is up for discussion, it's gonna be impossible to figure out how much of any downturn in business was due to the speed limit vs. other factors, especially the economy. The arguments will be heated on both sides, with no real factual basis...just lots of opinions, coming fast and furious.

Here's an idea...how about postponing the start of the two years of the current speed limit until the recession is over? I almost hate to suggest it, because I know that some folks will try to leverage this into killing the law altogether, but this might make sense all the way around.

Oh, and Dave...thanks for posting the listing of businesses that have supported the speed limit bill. I'll be sure to patronize them
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Old 04-15-2009, 03:11 PM   #70
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I'm a supporter of a speed limit on the Lake (maybe not exactly the bill that's in force now), and I have to say that it's really unfortunate that the speed limit has gone into effect during this severe economic downturn.

As this thread has already demonstrated, when the renewal of the bill is up for discussion, it's gonna be impossible to figure out how much of any downturn in business was due to the speed limit vs. other factors, especially the economy. The arguments will be heated on both sides, with no real factual basis...just lots of opinions, coming fast and furious.

Here's an idea...how about postponing the start of the two years of the current speed limit until the recession is over? I almost hate to suggest it, because I know that some folks will try to leverage this into killing the law altogether, but this might make sense all the way around.

Oh, and Dave...thanks for posting the listing of businesses that have supported the speed limit bill. I'll be sure to patronize them

Although I disagree with your position on the limits themselves you do make a good point that it will be difficult to determine the economic downturn with the other factors going on in the world. However I have to ask even if there was no economic downturn, How could we attribute any losses directly to the limits? I am an opponent of them, but there will be no concreate evidence to be used either way. It will always be a matter of opinion.

There are certain industries geared towards faster boats i.e. poker runs, gas etc. However all boats still burn gas and all boats are welcome in poker runs so again it will be speculative to attribute any loss directly due to the limits.

These could be offset by more cruisers on the lake for example...

I am not condoning the limits at all. I think they will hurt a whole lot more then they will help, however I don't know if there will be an actual way to meter this.

My only thought is if the state would release how many go fast boats i.e. certain length, certain H.P. were registered this year opposed to past years. This again though could stem back to the overall economy one could argue.

To break it down I think that the discussion is valid and worth while because it keeps people thinking and trys to improve the lakes region the way we see fit. The only way we will be able to determine the impact will be from discussing what we have personally seen and heard. Through those observations we are free to form our own opinions and voice them come 2011.

So overall how ever you feel on the limits it is good to point out anything or anyone you have seen that has changed their plans due to them.
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Old 04-15-2009, 03:43 PM   #71
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when the renewal of the bill is up for discussion, it's gonna be impossible to figure out how much of any downturn in business was due to the speed limit vs. other factors, especially the economy.
When this law is reconsidered for 2011 and beyond economic impact should not be a consideration. The only consideration should be whether it achieved its intended purpose of making the lake safer for small boats and others using the lake. I suspect that it won't make a big difference since the lake is already very safe but remember that NH now has an extremely Liberal legislature that thinks regulating every aspect of your lives is a good thing.

In the current economic, energy and environmental climate I personally don't understand why anyone would buy a huge, noisy, high-speed, gas-guzzling boat, especially if they know about the 45 MPH speed limit. This is as crazy as the soccer moms using their enormous Excursions and Escalades to do errands. I don't want to outlaw them, but what are these people thinking?
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Old 04-15-2009, 05:44 PM   #72
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Agree or disagree with the law, I haven't heard of anyone that will be boycotting going to dinner because they can't go faster than 25 mph at night. Even at that speed, which I will not exceed after dark anyway, the lake is only a 30-35 minute cruise from one end to the other.
I beg to differ with you, any boat over 5000lbs on plane will create a wake that they could be held responsible for, and the gas mileage is horrifying. So Idling from one side to another is not reasonable. Dining by boat in the evening is just going to have to wait.
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Old 04-15-2009, 05:47 PM   #73
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Last three summers of 2006, 2007, & 2008 were all rain & clouds from May 15 - August 15. Based on the law of averages and the old adage of 'a cold winter = a hot summer', this coming summer is predicted to be a hotter and sunnier summer.

Three cheers for this summer's terrific boating weather!

Do you promise?
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Old 04-15-2009, 07:37 PM   #74
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OCDACTIVE:

You don't put forth a very convincing argument that the speed limit will negatively impact the economy in a meaningful way for one simple reason, by your own admission you just purchased a go fast boat with full knowledge that there is a speed limit.......


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Although I disagree with your position on the limits themselves you do make a good point that it will be difficult to determine the economic downturn with the other factors going on in the world. However I have to ask even if there was no economic downturn, How could we attribute any losses directly to the limits? I am an opponent of them, but there will be no concreate evidence to be used either way. It will always be a matter of opinion.

There are certain industries geared towards faster boats i.e. poker runs, gas etc. However all boats still burn gas and all boats are welcome in poker runs so again it will be speculative to attribute any loss directly due to the limits.

These could be offset by more cruisers on the lake for example...

I am not condoning the limits at all. I think they will hurt a whole lot more then they will help, however I don't know if there will be an actual way to meter this.

My only thought is if the state would release how many go fast boats i.e. certain length, certain H.P. were registered this year opposed to past years. This again though could stem back to the overall economy one could argue.

To break it down I think that the discussion is valid and worth while because it keeps people thinking and trys to improve the lakes region the way we see fit. The only way we will be able to determine the impact will be from discussing what we have personally seen and heard. Through those observations we are free to form our own opinions and voice them come 2011.

So overall how ever you feel on the limits it is good to point out anything or anyone you have seen that has changed their plans due to them.
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Old 04-15-2009, 07:48 PM   #75
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OCDACTIVE:

You don't put forth a very convincing argument that the speed limit will negatively impact the economy in a meaningful way for one simple reason, by your own admission you just purchased a go fast boat with full knowledge that there is a speed limit.......
That is true I bought a go fast boat even though there are speed limits.... However, I will not be using it at the lake near as much as I would have. I would have left her at the dock year round boosting economy at many gas pumps and with a 100 gallon tank that is a lot of $$$. Plus I would want to go to as many places on the lake as I could with this being her first year. Now I plan to keep her in my driveway so I can go out of Portsmouth and down to Naragansett Bay taking revenue I would have spent in the lakes region totally out of state which is an absolute shame in my opinion. I have dreamed my whole life of having a boat like I just bought and to run her on the place I know blind folded, but now I either can just get off plain or be looking over my shouldar all the time.

Either way the lakes region will be adversely effected as well as the state of NH because I will be leaving half the time.

I mentioned earlier that it will be very difficult to measure the actual impact and all we can do is share our plans. Well chaulk me up as money lost, for I am going elsewhere the majority of the time directly due to the limits and NOT due the overall economy for I have decided not to participate in the slowdown.
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Old 04-15-2009, 08:06 PM   #76
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Either way the lakes region will be adversely effected as well as the state of NH because I will be leaving half the time.
Not necessarily so. As has been pointed out before, many who have left the lake precisely because of the GFBL's may find the lake more enjoyable and therefore return. I myself plan to boat more, and especially on weekends. The net overall economic impact might well be quite positive in spite of your departure.
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Old 04-15-2009, 08:10 PM   #77
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Not necessarily so. As has been pointed out before, many who have left the lake precisely because of the GFBL's may find the lake more enjoyable and therefore return. I myself plan to boat more, and especially on weekends. The net overall economic impact might well be quite positive in spite of your departure.
Are you going to boat more because there will be less boats in general or because you were previously afraid of the big fast boats wizzing around in all those congested area's? I am being facetious because I never saw any GFBL's being bullies while my wife isn't a big fan of congestion and boats going all directions. The two are entirely different.
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Old 04-15-2009, 08:16 PM   #78
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Either way the lakes region will be adversely effected as well as the state of NH because I will be leaving half the time.


Not necessarily so. As has been pointed out before, many who have left the lake precisely because of the GFBL's may find the lake more enjoyable and therefore return. I myself plan to boat more, and especially on weekends. The net overall economic impact might well be quite positive in spite of your departure.
You may be right and are entitled to your opinion.. There will be no way to really tell.. But I can say for certain that I am someone who would most definately be contributing to the economy of the area and now will not be. Probably 70% less then what I would have.

You will need probably two or three smaller boats to make up for that, realatively speaking. This would cause more congestion and perhaps cause more people not to go.

A few things I know about the GFB and their owners: Normally (there are always exceptions to the rule with any group) but Normally we only go fast when it is safe to do so, we normally know what the hell we are doing in a boat, and usually have to spend more to do it.

So overall I feel the economy and lake itself will suffer.
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Old 04-15-2009, 08:24 PM   #79
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Either way the lakes region will be adversely effected as well as the state of NH because I will be leaving half the time.


Not necessarily so. As has been pointed out before, many who have left the lake precisely because of the GFBL's may find the lake more enjoyable and therefore return. I myself plan to boat more, and especially on weekends. The net overall economic impact might well be quite positive in spite of your departure.
Also to clairify, those who I thought would return to the lake were canoers and kayakers.. (for the record I like to do both).. but I do not recall ever sinking 3 bills in the gas tank of one or taking family and friends to lunch at the naswa in one either..

Just making a point...


Economeys of scale.... It will take a lot more of them to make up for a few GFBs...
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Old 04-15-2009, 08:32 PM   #80
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But I can say for certain that I am someone who would most definately be contributing to the economy of the area and now will not be. Probably 70% less then what I would have.

You will need probably two or three smaller boats to make up for that, realatively speaking. This would cause more congestion and perhaps cause more people not to go.

So overall I feel the economy and lake itself will suffer.
Again not necessarily so. (hopefully) you don't eat and drink 3 times as much as the small boater when you go out to eat. Furthermore,increased tourism in the region (and not just boating) brings money to many businesses not precisely on the shoreline of Winni. Could be a win/win for the lake's region.
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Old 04-15-2009, 08:38 PM   #81
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Again not necessarily so. (hopefully) you don't eat and drink 3 times as much as the small boater when you go out to eat. Furthermore,increased tourism in the region (and not just boating) brings money to many businesses not precisely on the shoreline of Winni. Could be a win/win for the lake's region.

True.... Only time will tell but I think your conclusions are a little too hopefull.

Smaller boats use less fuel. Less expensive to registar and carry less people (normally)

Canoes and Kayaks don't normally go to lunch as a group.

We can only wait and guess what may happen with the smaller groups you mention. But I can speak for myself as well as many other friends who have GFB and the lake is not going to be on their priority list.

I love the lake so I will definately be there some of the time because my family is there.. But I know I would have spent a whole lot more then I will be which hurts the economy.

I will not guess or speculate as to what other "groups" of individuals may or may not do. I just know what I and my friends will do and that is contribute to economys elsewhere unfortunately.
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Old 04-15-2009, 09:14 PM   #82
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Again not necessarily so. (hopefully) you don't eat and drink 3 times as much as the small boater when you go out to eat. Furthermore,increased tourism in the region (and not just boating) brings money to many businesses not precisely on the shoreline of Winni. Could be a win/win for the lake's region.
Your theories may prove to be true, but we'll never really know. What you're describing would happen over a period of 5-7 years. Kayakers and timid boaters aren't going to just come out of the woodwork this year because the relatively small number of fast boats impacted by the new laws are cutting back on their hours in Winni.
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Old 04-15-2009, 09:38 PM   #83
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....

Three cheers for this summer's terrific boating weather!
This is the best post
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Old 04-15-2009, 09:39 PM   #84
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OCDACTIVE you have done a wonderful job presenting very valid points in this forum without dismissing anyone's points as pathetic or ridiculous etc. I applaud your methods of posting rational clear concise information. Everyone is indeed entitled to their opinions and it is clear that you have been borderline ridiculed by some members of the forum yet you have remained steadfast and consistent in your demeanor. I truly applaud you for that. Regardless of my absolute agreement on your positions I take offense to those who dismiss your/our concerns with regard to how we might enjoy our vessels during the day and at night. Mind you I am not an owner of a craft that could even carry your wake. However I am told I should not even go out at night because I want to do 35-40MPH. Oh well. I hope our paths cross someday this summer and we'll chat it up. Good luck with the new boat.
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Old 04-16-2009, 05:44 AM   #85
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Default We will be out there

Regardless of speed limits (or no speed limits), we will be out on the lake for our usual 45-50 engine hours and countless floating hours. I hope all of you enjoy the upcoming boating season as much as my family and friends do!
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Old 04-16-2009, 06:38 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Loony Singer View Post
Here's an idea...how about postponing the start of the two years of the current speed limit until the recession is over? I almost hate to suggest it, because I know that some folks will try to leverage this into killing the law altogether, but this might make sense all the way around.
This speed limit bill is supposed to be about safety. If safety is such a problem on the lake, postponing the implementation of a speed limit based on economic downturn is a very bad idea. Safety doesn't care about how much money people have to spend.

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When this law is reconsidered for 2011 and beyond economic impact should not be a consideration. The only consideration should be whether it achieved its intended purpose of making the lake safer for small boats and others using the lake. I suspect that it won't make a big difference since the lake is already very safe but remember that NH now has an extremely Liberal legislature that thinks regulating every aspect of your lives is a good thing.
Exactly.
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In the current economic, energy and environmental climate I personally don't understand why anyone would buy a huge, noisy, high-speed, gas-guzzling boat, especially if they know about the 45 MPH speed limit. This is as crazy as the soccer moms using their enormous Excursions and Escalades to do errands. I don't want to outlaw them, but what are these people thinking?
I don't agree with this at all. While you may not think it is a good idea, plenty of people do. And in this country, they are able to exercise their freedom of choice. They are thinking that they can afford it, they enjoy it, and they will do it.
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Old 04-16-2009, 06:42 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Boater View Post

In the current economic, energy and environmental climate I personally don't understand why anyone would buy a huge, noisy, high-speed, gas-guzzling boat, especially if they know about the 45 MPH speed limit. This is as crazy as the soccer moms using their enormous Excursions and Escalades to do errands. I don't want to outlaw them, but what are these people thinking?
I feel this is more of an opinion that would be in the "closed section" and really has no bearing on the discussion at hand. More over I feel it is directed to raise people apprehensions that may take this thead down the wrong path.

How people want to spend there money is totally up to them. Just because they purchase a boat that is outside of what you deem as realistic in todays economy doesn't mean it isn't something someone else can not afford. Also just because there is a limit in NH does not mean there is one up and down the east coast where I personally plan on using mine.
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Old 04-16-2009, 07:19 AM   #88
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Default Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

I am neither a proponent nor an opponent of the speed limit law on the lake. I would have rather seen a NOISE limit rather than a speed limit introduced and enforced. I know, I know, there IS already a noise limit, I guess that's why I can hear some boats from Eagle Island all the way to the No Wake Zone in Meredith, and then ALL the way back. But that's another issue.
As far as the speed limit effect on the ecomomy around the lake, I think after a very brief adjustment period, if any, it will thrive as usual. For every go-fast boat owner who will opt to launch in the ocean, ( where some will argue that's where they belong ) I predict that at least one additional GSBQ (Go Slow Be Quiet ) boat will launch in the lake. I hardly believe that any lake accessed restaurant will fold or be negatively impacted as a result of a lower speed limit at night.
It wasn't that long ago that the heated discussion of the day was the smoking ban in restaurants and bars. Net effect of that law was that more folks found that going to a restaurant or bar to be a more pleasurable experience.
Could the same thing happen as a result of the speed limits on the lake?
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Old 04-16-2009, 07:32 AM   #89
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About a month ago, the Citizen had an article about the Marine Patrol's new, public information signs designed to inform the boating public about 'you know what' on Lake Winnipesaukee. Apparently, the MP will be nailing up some public dock signs, designed to let the boating public learn and understand the new boating law.

As I recall, at the time of the article one month ago, the signs were still on the drawing board. I believe the state has its own sign shop in Concord.


Winnipesaukee ice-out is here, so where are all the new signs? Us boaters want to be educated!
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Old 04-16-2009, 07:55 AM   #90
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Bear in mind, many people come to the Lakes Region for things other than boating. Maybe DRED has a chart on this?
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Old 04-16-2009, 08:11 AM   #91
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Default Question....

Just a question that seems appropriate to ask at this time.
Not looking to start trouble, or stir the pot. This is really just a question I would like answered by someone who knows more than I.

I've only been boating for a 4 or 5 years, but get out often enough, and know the lake pretty good. While I'm not usually in a rush, when heading from Meredith over to Wolfboro, I'll push the boat to it's limit, which is 45/48 MPH.
And this seems like a decent speed. My question: Even at 35/40 MPH, things seem to be moving pretty quickly...how can this possibly be a safe speed at night? I can't imagine...unless it is a clear, clear night, under a full moon....but even then. At 35 MPH, at night, couldn't you come up on something unexpected too quickly to make a correction?
I'd be curious to hear from night boaters. Do you folks actually travel at 35/40(pre-speed limit) under the cover of darkness...and is it truly safe?
Maybe my experience level is not what it should be, which is why it seems excessive.
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Old 04-16-2009, 08:19 AM   #92
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I can't imagine...unless it is a clear, clear night, under a full moon....but even then. At 35 MPH, at night, couldn't you come up on something unexpected too quickly to make a correction?.
Absolutely. even something partially submerged.
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Old 04-16-2009, 08:23 AM   #93
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Oh, and Dave...thanks for posting the listing of businesses that have supported the speed limit bill. I'll be sure to patronize them

Thank Winnfabs, they put it together. I'm just re-posting it.
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Old 04-16-2009, 08:37 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa meredith View Post
Do you folks actually travel at 35/40(pre-speed limit) under the cover of darkness...and is it truly safe?
Maybe my experience level is not what it should be, which is why it seems excessive.
I normally do not, but on full moon nights, with clear skies, it is easy and safe to go 35+ with excellent visibility. Really depends on how much light is available. On pitch-black nights, 25 would be ludicrous. I can remember cruising slowly across Sebago Lake in Maine one night when it was clouldy and moonless. We literally could not see anything that was not lit up by humans. I kept it to idle speed and used GPS/compass to navigate to my overnight anchorage. When I got to the anchorage (a waypoint on the GPS), I was <300 feet from shore (a nice beach) and could not see it at all.
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Old 04-16-2009, 08:38 AM   #95
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I think your going to see a very quiet (pun intended) numbers wise boating season...

The economy is in shambles, unemployment is at levels not seen since the early 80's and the government is printing & spending money faster than the ink can dry. Have we bottomed out yet? We might be getting close to the bottom, but we are not there yet.... then we are gonna bounce and have the inflation issue to deal with.... Prime @ 9.5%? Its coming!

While the few, and I mean FEW big Hi-Po boats that wont be on the lake won't be missed by the general public. You can bet they will be missed by some of the businesses on the lake. In this economy every $$ counts, even more so if your livelyhood depends on a a seasonal business.

Go ask the Naswa if they are going to miss the OuterLimits Factory crew this summer... 10+ guys, 5 rooms, and god only knows how much money they spend on food & drink entertaining thier clients.... just a small sample, but those guys came up 2-3 weekends a summer.

It was touted during the GREAT SPEED LIMIT DEBATE and most recently by others in this thread, that the lack of Hi-Perf boats would make the lake safer and thus more Average Joe family boaters would be more likely to visit Lake Winni. They might have had a valid point except the economy took a nosedive...

Average Joe the family boater is worried... worried about his job, worried about his house, worried about taxes, worried about paying his bills, worried about the price of gas. Luxuries like summers on the lake are being shortened to weekends or daytrips and in some cases tossed out all together.

Where is the Average Joe going to put his boat in the water? Park his trailer? Ames Farm is closed because of a neighbor dispute, there is no public launch in Laconia, You need to be a resident of Gilford to use Glendale, and Meredith has a very small ramp and charges a fee...

and FLL was right on with the weather... bad economy and bad weather would be a disaster for the seasonal business....

Woodsy

PS: I cant believe i just agreed with FLL on something! I better go get a $1 McChicken!
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Old 04-16-2009, 11:46 AM   #96
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Wink Safe night boating

Originally Posted by sa meredith
Do you folks actually travel at 35/40(pre-speed limit) under the cover of darkness...and is it truly safe?
Maybe my experience level is not what it should be, which is why it seems excessive.

IN response to the saftey of night boating.... Yes you can safely navigate at night at speed. We have a very accurate GPS and radar that we use anytime we boat. One night we come to a dead stop when the radar showed a "target" that we cound not see with our eyes. We shined the search light and saw a flock of ducks (not wearing the correct bathing caps). We have a double check process before we bring the boat up to speed. One will keep a visual watch and the other will watch the equipment. With the right state of mind and focus you can definitely navagate safely at speed in the dark. I would not trust this approach during fog or rain. You need to be proficient with the equipment to understand the limitations. I would not trust only one set of eyes.

Personal perspective: Our boat travels well at 28 MPH and hits 45 at WOT. This is going to be our 10 th season on the lake. We have not come in contact with rocks nor come close to an incident. We ahve traveled the lake many nights in all conditions. In spite of the many spectacular stories or accidents described in this great forum we enjoy all the diverse machinery fast or slow that navigate the lake. There is still enough lake to find crouds or seclusion. I don't get wigged out when a "rookie" buzzes closer than 150 feet as long as I see they are in control of their boat. Attitude seems to be the greatest restriction to the enjoyment the area offers. We are not rich nor are we poor. We find the weekends on the Lake to be the best "investment" in mental health that we can control and will continue until some other group of self serving ill-informed polititions take away personal choice and freedom.
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Old 04-16-2009, 12:37 PM   #97
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I believe a much more insidious component to the economy, as it pertains to boating, is ethanol in the gasoline. This stuff will wreak havoc on boats. A buddy of mine bought a NEW boat last year and althought Mercruiser states it is safe to use ethanol gasoline in the engine, the boat manufacturer WILL VOID the warranty for the fuel system ie; gas tank, if ethanol fuel is used in the boat. I hope there are marinas on the lake that will sell non-ethanol gas. If not, my 1986 wellcraft will be as useless as you-know-what on a bull, without a retrofit that will be more costly than the value of my boat. For those who think Marine Stabil will prevent these problems.......NOT! Marine Stabil will prevent phase separation. It will do nothing to prevent the ethanol from digesting your fuel system.
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Old 04-16-2009, 01:45 PM   #98
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I I hope there are marinas on the lake that will sell non-ethanol gas. If not, my 1986 wellcraft will be as useless as you-know-what on a bull, without a retrofit that will be more costly than the value of my boat.
I take it you have a fiberglass gas tank? If so, I think you are truly hosed regarding fuel supply. That sucks.
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Old 04-16-2009, 01:51 PM   #99
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nightrider, ethanol in marina fuels has been discussed in another thread. I know Channel Marine was selling ValvTect Marine Fuel last year. I went to the ValvTect website and they had a locator to find all dealers selling their product. According to their website, Channel Marine, West Alton Marina (West Alton) and Lanes End Marina (Melvin Village) are all selling ValvTect fuel on Winnipesaukee. I have no idea what the price differential is between their fuel and regular ethanol-laced fuel, either at a marina or on the street.

Here's the Valvtect website, http://www.valvtect.com/.

There is also a ValvTect dealer on Ossipee Lake at Ossipee Lake Marina.
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Old 04-16-2009, 02:05 PM   #100
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Default Me too Woodsy!

I'm not going to get into the SL debate but I will say that FLL has spoken to the biggest factor for the lakes region money machine. #1 is the weather. #2 is the economy. Even being very vocal against the SL, I believe the economic angle is way down the list.
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