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Old 09-04-2018, 12:45 PM   #1
Charlie T
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Default Heating System Replacement

I'm looking for a reliable HVAC contractor to perform a replacement of a old Oil boiler with a new 3 pass boiler. I'm looking at the Weil Mclain Ultra Oil boiler or the Buderus G115w boiler. I was interested in the Burnham 3 pass units as well but pre sales info request from Burnham was met with rude responses from the factory so I'm leaving them out of the mix.

I'm also looking at a "direct vent" option using a Riello burner as a way to get rid of the power vent I have now. No chimney is available. I'd welcome replies from anyone who has installed a direct vent oil system in the past few years.

I'm in Gilford. Any response it welcome.

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Old 09-04-2018, 01:28 PM   #2
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I'm looking for a reliable HVAC contractor to perform a replacement of a old Oil boiler with a new 3 pass boiler. I'm looking at the Weil Mclain Ultra Oil boiler or the Buderus G115w boiler. I was interested in the Burnham 3 pass units as well but pre sales info request from Burnham was met with rude responses from the factory so I'm leaving them out of the mix.

I'm also looking at a "direct vent" option using a Riello burner as a way to get rid of the power vent I have now. No chimney is available. I'd welcome replies from anyone who has installed a direct vent oil system in the past few years.

I'm in Gilford. Any response it welcome.

Thanks

Charlie T
I had a buddy of mine replace my boiler about 4 years ago. He told me to stay away from Burnham. He said they have so many more issues than many of the others. He also told me to go with a Carlin burner over a Becket. I took his advice and have had no issues but I have a chimney not a power vent.
I went with an HB Smith boiler because I needed a side clean out due to space constraints, it's in a crawl space.
I wish I could help you out on a contractor. I get my oil from Stafford Oil and I know they install boilers.
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Old 09-04-2018, 01:48 PM   #3
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Is always best to go first class for heat and hot water ....... go RIELLO (Italy) and go RINNAI (Japan) and you won't go a-wrong!
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Old 09-04-2018, 01:53 PM   #4
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Is always best to go first class for heat and hot water ....... go RIELLO (Italy) and go RINNAI (Japan) and you won't go a-wrong!
Do they sell those at Walmart?
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Old 09-04-2018, 02:05 PM   #5
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Do they sell those at Walmart?
Just checked at walmart.com and yes, to my surprise, it has Rinnai natural gas and propane items.

For $954.29 walmart.com will ship you, free freight, to a Walmart store, a 24,000-btu naural gas or propane Rinnai wall furnace. Believe this same item costs about $1500 at Amerigas in Laconia.

Back in 1998, I got one for the then discount price of about $800, installed it myself, and it has worked totally perfect ever since, with no maintenance what-so-ever.... the greatest, most reliable, warm & comfy hot air heater ever made ..... now comes in beige or white.

With the recent spat of global warming, will heat still be needed in the winter?
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Old 09-04-2018, 02:10 PM   #6
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Just checked at walmart.com and yes, to my surprise it has Rinnai natural gas and propane items.

For $954.29 walmart.com will ship you, free freight, to a Walmart store, a 24,000-btu naural gas or propane wall furnace. Believe this same item costs about $1500 at Amerigas in Laconia.

Back in 1998, I got one for a discount price of about $800, installed it myself, and it has worked totally perfect ever since, with no maintenance what-so-ever.... the greatest hot air heater ever made!
I have three friends that have bought those new wall boilers in the past four years and have had nothing but trouble with them. I've had zero issues with my conventional boiler.
But that's beside the point, the OP said he has oil and they don't make those wall units for oil.
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Old 09-04-2018, 02:23 PM   #7
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....omg ...... the walmart.com has Riello which is oil, super duper quality, efficiency, made in Italy!

What is the world coming to, when walmart.com has these types of installer items ....... lord have mercy..... on the poor slob who installs it hisself?
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Old 09-04-2018, 09:28 PM   #8
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Charlie, I had several bad experiences with the Burnham castings cracking (happened twice on my boiler) so I pulled it and installed a Buderus. Too lazy to go downstairs and see which model, but I believe it is the 215. I opted for the Logamatic 2107 control which was an additional $1,200 I believe but would not do that again. I have forced hot water baseboard, the 2107 is designed for European systems which have dial type thermostats on the radiators which control each room, not the systems typically found here.

My baseboards need hot water to convect properly, the basis of the 2107 is that it provides cooler water when the temperature is warmer outside which works well for European style radiators but not too well for baseboard. My issue is on mainly spring/late winter days where it is cold at night but warms up quickly in the morning. The house is cold, but the control sees it's warmer outside so it send cooler water to the baseboard which doesn't really heat the house that well. It's a small issue, but I think a basic cold start control would work better for baseboard, or a control that is designed specifically for baseboard if you want to vary the temps. That said, we used to burn somewhere in the area of 1,000+ gallons of oil a winter season, the new boiler burned about 600 gallons last year so it did save us money. If you have radiant floor heat then the 2107 control is probably ideal for that. I use Foley oil and I know they do installs, but not sure what boilers they use. I've been thinking about changing out my Winnipesaukee boiler, but it is pretty efficient and still in good shape. Good luck.
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Old 09-05-2018, 04:54 AM   #9
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I'm looking for a reliable HVAC contractor to perform a replacement of a old Oil boiler with a new 3 pass boiler. I'm looking at the Weil Mclain Ultra Oil boiler or the Buderus G115w boiler. I was interested in the Burnham 3 pass units as well but pre sales info request from Burnham was met with rude responses from the factory so I'm leaving them out of the mix.

I'm also looking at a "direct vent" option using a Riello burner as a way to get rid of the power vent I have now. No chimney is available. I'd welcome replies from anyone who has installed a direct vent oil system in the past few years.

I'm in Gilford. Any response it welcome.

Thanks

Charlie T
I've installed hundreds of boilers... the best oil boiler out there is a System 2000 hands down! This one vents side wall... https://energykinetics.com/90-resolu...i-fuel_boiler/

Yes there are cheaper boilers out there, but if you want the most efficient this company is it. Buderus is only the block not a system, it's not efficient and needs a high static burner like a Riello and is very noisy. As someone has mentioned, stay away from wall hung units, they're being installed on baseboard systems that will lead to their premature failure. Wall hung boilers are designed for low temp applications so if you're doing a radiant of fan coil system you'll be fine. Good luck
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Old 09-05-2018, 08:00 AM   #10
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I've installed hundreds of boilers... the best oil boiler out there is a System 2000 hands down! This one vents side wall... https://energykinetics.com/90-resolu...i-fuel_boiler/

Yes there are cheaper boilers out there, but if you want the most efficient this company is it. Buderus is only the block not a system, it's not efficient and needs a high static burner like a Riello and is very noisy. As someone has mentioned, stay away from wall hung units, they're being installed on baseboard systems that will lead to their premature failure. Wall hung boilers are designed for low temp applications so if you're doing a radiant of fan coil system you'll be fine. Good luck
Didnít quite understand what you meant about the Buderus boilers?
We have the Buderus forced hot water furnace/boiler and the water heater.
Fueled by propane they seem efficient enough. Fill me in please!
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Old 09-05-2018, 10:30 AM   #11
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Didnít quite understand what you meant about the Buderus boilers?
We have the Buderus forced hot water furnace/boiler and the water heater.
Fueled by propane they seem efficient enough. Fill me in please!
They don't make furnaces. Depends what you mean by efficient... is it a condensing unit? Does it condense? Hope this helps... the majority of heating "professionals" have no clue! https://energykinetics.com/afue/
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Old 09-05-2018, 01:43 PM   #12
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They don't make furnaces. Depends what you mean by efficient... is it a condensing unit? Does it condense? Hope this helps... the majority of heating "professionals" have no clue! https://energykinetics.com/afue/
No idea...it makes a flame by burning propane and heats water that flows through a combination of pex (sp) and copper which is connected to baseboard all around the perimeter of my house (log home)
In other words a forced hot water by propane system.
I had a heating guy come by to clean it and he said it was so clean inside he really didnít have much to clean but he still charged me $200
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Old 09-05-2018, 07:58 PM   #13
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No idea...it makes a flame by burning propane and heats water that flows through a combination of pex (sp) and copper which is connected to baseboard all around the perimeter of my house (log home)
In other words a forced hot water by propane system.
I had a heating guy come by to clean it and he said it was so clean inside he really didnít have much to clean but he still charged me $200
LOL... is it a wall hung or floor model? Not much you have to do with floor models except test the safeties, ignitor, and gas pressures. wall hungs are different and need to be torn down.
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Old 09-05-2018, 08:12 PM   #14
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Charlie, I had several bad experiences with the Burnham castings cracking (happened twice on my boiler) so I pulled it and installed a Buderus.
I was considering a Burnham 3 pass boiler until I tried to get some info on the direct vent feature directly from Burnham . I could find nothing on the website so I filled out a detailed online form with my name, address and contact info asking for what I needed. I got a snippy email back from the "customer service dept" telling me they don't talk to homeowners and certainly would not provide me with any info on their products. I was then informed that if I wanted that info I should go thru their website to find out who the " local distributor" was in my area and that they might be able to help me. If I wanted the run around I would not have gone directly to the source. If this is how they treat potential customers I can just imagine how little regard they would have for me once my money was in their hands. Burnham fell right off the list of boiler choices for me
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Old 09-05-2018, 08:48 PM   #15
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LOL... is it a wall hung or floor model? Not much you have to do with floor models except test the safeties, ignitor, and gas pressures. wall hungs are different and need to be torn down.
This is what we have: lol they look wall mounted but they are indeed on the floor!
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Old 09-06-2018, 05:41 AM   #16
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You have a Buderus g124 atmospheric propane fired boiler with indirect. The AFUE rating are determined by the manufacturer of the equipment and not a factual rating of efficiency. Blue sure looks purty though... Don't get me wrong it will heat your home and hot water. I believe the poster was looking to replace an oil fired unit which is much different than gas.
What you'll find is that most installers will install what they feel comfortable installing and can care less about efficiency or whether the system is truly compatible with what you have now.

https://energykinetics.com/wp-conten...lsResearch.pdf
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Old 09-06-2018, 06:37 AM   #17
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I've had a dozen homes over my 65 years, mostly with oil fired boilers, and they have all had either Weil Mclain or HB smith boilers that have lasted 25 years or more with no major issues.
Sometimes going with the new technology has it's pit falls. A lot more head aches for a little more efficiency?
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Old 09-06-2018, 08:21 AM   #18
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I've had a dozen homes over my 65 years, mostly with oil fired boilers, and they have all had either Weil McLain or HB smith boilers that have lasted 25 years or more with no major issues.
Sometimes going with the new technology has it's pit falls. A lot more head aches for a little more efficiency?
After a lot of research we had a new Weil McLain gas fired boiler installed last December. As I searched the internet for other people's heating system experiences I found lots of reports and comments about the problems people were having with the new on demand systems. I talked to several installers and the opinions were split between on demand and traditional boilers.

When I posted a picture on FB of the ancient boiler being removed a friend posted a picture of his brand new wall hung on demand system and bragged how it was so efficient and cutting edge. The next time I saw him they said that shortly after that post they started having problems that took the heating contractor a few weeks to resolve.

We're so glad we went with a traditional time proven Weil McLain boiler. It has cut our gas bill by at least 2/3's and we haven't had a single problem with it. Since the spring every gas bill has been under $30 and that's only because the boiler also heats the hot water.

I feel we made the right choice.

Here's a picture of the old beast being hauled away. The removal crew said "By next month this will be a Kia".
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Old 09-06-2018, 09:37 AM   #19
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The house I live in now is my family home which I remodeled in 1995 after my mother passed away. I had a boiler that was about 5ft square removed and installed a Weil Mclain that was about 1/4th the size. Still to this day no major issues, just a few electronic controls replaced over the years. My burner guy says it's fine and no reason to change it but I did just replace my indirect water heater after 23 years.
The only thing I regret is not switching to gas back in 1995 as there is a gas line in the street. I'm hoping I'm not there long enough for another boiler change.
I built the house behind me back in 1984 and installed an HB Smith boiler and the guy just replaced it a few years ago.
Both, my brother inlaw and my best friend, had the gas fired wall hung units installed within the past 5 years and have had nothing but problems with them every winter. One had to be completely changed under warrantee and the both have gone through a few circuit board changes.

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Old 09-06-2018, 12:02 PM   #20
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FWIW my Burnham boiler with a Beckett burner has been going strong for 28 years. Had a Boderus installed in dads house and really like it. The techs rave about them also.
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Old 09-06-2018, 01:49 PM   #21
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FWIW my Burnham boiler with a Beckett burner has been going strong for 28 years. Had a Boderus installed in dads house and really like it. The techs rave about them also.
Burnham's been around a long time but my heating guy says that's the #1 boiler that he replaces because of leaks. I guess you got your moneys worth.
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Old 09-06-2018, 08:02 PM   #22
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FWIW my Burnham boiler with a Beckett burner has been going strong for 28 years. Had a Boderus installed in dads house and really like it. The techs rave about them also.
I would think that technology has improved efficiency over the past 28 years. The problem I have to overcome is to find the boiler that hasn't been "value engineered" by the bean counters to the point that long term reliability suffers.

I"m hoping to find a reputable local installer who can help me select that unit.
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Old 09-07-2018, 05:10 AM   #23
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I would think that technology has improved efficiency over the past 28 years. The problem I have to overcome is to find the boiler that hasn't been "value engineered" by the bean counters to the point that long term reliability suffers.

I"m hoping to find a reputable local installer who can help me select that unit.

Low mass and post purge... what's value engineered?
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Old 09-07-2018, 07:35 AM   #24
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Low mass and post purge... what's value engineered?
The overwhelming issues that appear to be showing up with modern hi efficiency boilers is cracking and leaking. The units they replaces lasted 30, 50, 70 years and were probably functional when they were replaced. The issues with the newer ones appear to be lower quality materials and fllaws in design and QC that allow them to get out the shipping dock. That to me is the result of Value engineering.

This is a worldwide problem in virtually every industry where bean counters calculate the overall cost of warranty costs vs building a better product. Part of the calculation is income from replacement parts for non warranty repairs, this is the reason our homes are filled with junk that doesn't last as long as it should. A prime example is automobiles, as the manufacturers quality increased the warranties were extended to 100K miles, in the past few years the trend has been to reduce the warranty. Try to find a new car now with a 100K power train warranty today....... What was the norm 5 year ago is now extinct. Build the product only as good as you have to and expect / hope for a return customer when it breaks once out of warranty
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Old 09-07-2018, 02:03 PM   #25
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The overwhelming issues that appear to be showing up with modern hi efficiency boilers is cracking and leaking. The units they replaces lasted 30, 50, 70 years and were probably functional when they were replaced. The issues with the newer ones appear to be lower quality materials and fllaws in design and QC that allow them to get out the shipping dock. That to me is the result of Value engineering.
Welcome to my world... wait till those Mitsubishi mini split evaporator leak from substandard materials. They're already happening , but I shouldn't tip anyone off yet.
I agree, most US boiler manufacturer have reduced the thickness of their castings and many leak prematurely or crack. This is why steel is a good option. Quality Control??? LOL Stay away from wall hung units that claim 95% efficiencies on Baseboard systems...you'll be lucky to get 10 years out of them!
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Old 09-07-2018, 03:09 PM   #26
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Welcome to my world... wait till those Mitsubishi mini split evaporator leak from substandard materials. They're already happening , but I shouldn't tip anyone off yet.
I agree, most US boiler manufacturer have reduced the thickness of their castings and many leak prematurely or crack. This is why steel is a good option. Quality Control??? LOL Stay away from wall hung units that claim 95% efficiencies on Baseboard systems...you'll be lucky to get 10 years out of them!
It's my hope to get at least 20 and hopefully 30 + years out of this boiler. Thats why I"m doing my due diligence now.

If I can only compile a list of local contractors that people have had good luck with. Does anybody have any names they can share / recommend?

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Old 09-08-2018, 04:57 AM   #27
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It's my hope to get at least 20 and hopefully 30 + years out of this boiler. Thats why I"m doing my due diligence now.



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No guarantee you'll get 30 years, but you should get 15-20 years. There's a lot more options with propane direct vent, but there are options with oil and I'd suggest a Riello burner for direct venting and whatever block you decide, a domestic one or foreign. 3 pass would be better than pin style if you're looking for a bit more efficiency. If you want the most efficient it's this one, the problem you'll have is finding someone with the knowledge and expertise. https://energykinetics.com/wp-conten...solute-oil.pdf No matter what you decide on, the installer, one servicing it and yearly maintenance is critical to longevity of any system.
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Old 09-08-2018, 07:07 AM   #28
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FWIW my Burnham boiler with a Beckett burner has been going strong for 28 years. Had a Boderus installed in dads house and really like it. The techs rave about them also.
Burnham changed things up in the 90's, I was told they moved their casting operation or subcontracted it out of the country in the 90's. The castings would crack, the first time it was covered under warranty, although I had to pay about $500 for labor to switch it out. The second time it cracked I said forget it and switched brands.

For the OP, I had a power venter, I hated that thing, it was loud and not very reliable. I also disliked having the discharge low to the ground as the fumes always found a way into an open window in the summer. So I ditched the power venter and put a stainless chimney up the side of the house. The chimney was a thousand or two more than another power vent would have been, but has no reliability issues and I don't smell burning fuel oil when my boiler kicks in for my hot water storage tank. YMMV.
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Old 09-08-2018, 05:50 PM   #29
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Put in a Weil McLain Gold oil burner 10 years ago. Zero issues. Going too high end seems to be problematic from all the research I have done.

It's still running 84% efficiency, down from 87% when I purchased it. Just a solid, decently priced machine.
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Old 09-09-2018, 05:05 AM   #30
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Put in a Weil McLain Gold oil burner 10 years ago. Zero issues. Going too high end seems to be problematic from all the research I have done.

It's still running 84% efficiency, down from 87% when I purchased it. Just a solid, decently priced machine.
LOL... that boiler isn't 84% efficient. That efficiency is the burn of the burner not the efficiency of the boiler which can be high until is reaches steady state.
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Old 09-09-2018, 06:16 AM   #31
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LOL... that boiler isn't 84% efficient. That efficiency is the burn of the burner not the efficiency of the boiler which can be high until is reaches steady state.
It could be the annual fuel utilization efficiency (AFUE) that he is talking about.
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Old 09-09-2018, 11:44 AM   #32
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Default All Good info But and installer recommendations

All good info from everyone..... Thank you !!

Does anyone have recommendations for installer companies that you can highly recommend?. Everything I've read and everything I know from my profession tells me that the install/ service company is every bit as important as the equipment.

Thanks

Charlie T
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Old 09-09-2018, 05:20 PM   #33
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It could be the annual fuel utilization efficiency (AFUE) that he is talking about.
No it can't... only the manufacturer can manipulate that! He's talking about the efficiency the tech told him his boiler was after they did the combustion test. I've done thousands of them.
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Old 09-09-2018, 06:05 PM   #34
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No it can't... only the manufacturer can manipulate that! He's talking about the efficiency the tech told him his boiler was after they did the combustion test. I've done thousands of them.
The reading the tech is taking using a probe in the stack is simply a combustion efficiency number that is based upon gas readings in the stack after it has left the boiler. This only is a measurement of how well the burner is turning fuel into heat energy, it has nothing to do with how efficiently the boiler is collecting that heat energy and transferring it to the water in your boiler/ heating system. The trick to saving money is to transfer as much of the heat energy into energy that is actually used to heat your premises. This is where the science, magic, Voodoo and unfortunately creative marketing come into play.
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Old 09-10-2018, 08:34 AM   #35
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It's my hope to get at least 20 and hopefully 30 + years out of this boiler. Thats why I"m doing my due diligence now.

If I can only compile a list of local contractors that people have had good luck with. Does anybody have any names they can share / recommend?

Thanks
A quality American made cast iron boiler such as Weil Maclain or HB Smith will last 20 to 30 years. Plus cast iron holds heat much longer. I don't believe you will get that out of a steel boiler, esp the ones that are made with Chinese crap steel.

I've busted up a few Weil Maclain boilers that were 25 plus years old, to get them out of a basement or crawlspace, and the were still pretty solid and leak free.

Finding an installer that won't cost you and arm and a leg will be the difficult part.
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Old 09-10-2018, 11:30 AM   #36
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A quality American made cast iron boiler such as Weil Maclain or HB Smith will last 20 to 30 years. Plus cast iron holds heat much longer. I don't believe you will get that out of a steel boiler, esp the ones that are made with Chinese crap steel.

I've busted up a few Weil Maclain boilers that were 25 plus years old, to get them out of a basement or crawlspace, and the were still pretty solid and leak free.

Finding an installer that won't cost you and arm and a leg will be the difficult part.
LOL... they use to built well.... just like cars, appliances, etc. you're living in the old days if you believe they last 30 years!
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Old 09-10-2018, 11:57 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by swnoel View Post
LOL... they use to built well.... just like cars, appliances, etc. you're living in the old days if you believe they last 30 years!
I guess time will tell. I installed my new HB Smith boiler 4 years ago, no issues yet. It looked to be the same quality as one I installed 30 years ago in another home I owned.

As far as cars go, I'm an auto mechanic by trade and most of the cars today are far superior to any cars made 30 years ago. As a matter of fact some of the worst cars ever built where made in the 80's. I will agree that appliances are crap today though.

I'm 65 so as long as it outlasts me I'm fine.

Last edited by Biggd; 09-10-2018 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 09-10-2018, 01:35 PM   #38
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For the OP, I had a power venter, I hated that thing, it was loud and not very reliable. I also disliked having the discharge low to the ground as the fumes always found a way into an open window in the summer. So I ditched the power venter and put a stainless chimney up the side of the house. The chimney was a thousand or two more than another power vent would have been, but has no reliability issues and I don't smell burning fuel oil when my boiler kicks in for my hot water storage tank. YMMV.
I did the exact same thing with my set-up. It had a very loud power vent that was located right under my bed one floor down. Also put in a metal chimney and enclosed it when I re-sided the house. I had fuel smell from the blower making negative pressure in the house. When the vent was off the air came back through the burner. Even cutting in a louver opening to the outside didnt help much.
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Old 09-10-2018, 02:45 PM   #39
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No it can't... only the manufacturer can manipulate that! He's talking about the efficiency the tech told him his boiler was after they did the combustion test. I've done thousands of them.
It is the AFUE. Considering that you have no idea that new cars are far superior these days to older ones I'll take any of your future info with a grain of salt.
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Old 09-10-2018, 05:16 PM   #40
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The reading the tech is taking using a probe in the stack is simply a combustion efficiency number that is based upon gas readings in the stack after it has left the boiler. This only is a measurement of how well the burner is turning fuel into heat energy, it has nothing to do with how efficiently the boiler is collecting that heat energy and transferring it to the water in your boiler/ heating system......
Actually, measuring the stack temperature is a very good way of measuring the efficiency of recovering combustion energy into boiler water or air circulated to heat the house. With no useful recovery at all of the heat of combustion, the stack temperature would be the flame temperature. Every BTU of heat recovered from the flue gas lowers its temperature. Since the heating value of the fuel and heat capacity of the flue gas mixture are well known, it's very easy to correlate efficiency of heat recovery with flue gas temperature. Providing more heat transfer surface and a sufficiently low temperature of the fluid (water or air), the flue gas can be cooled to the point where combustion water is partially condensed, which adds a large amount of heat to the recovery, at roughly 1,000 BTU/lb.
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Old 09-10-2018, 05:47 PM   #41
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It is the AFUE. Considering that you have no idea that new cars are far superior these days to older ones I'll take any of your future info with a grain of salt.
LOL... cars of yesteryear had more metal in their front fenders than most cars today have in their entirety! I use to be able to fix my own ...today you need a multi thousand dollar computer do do just about anything! I don't care what you do ... but I can assure you that I've forgotten more about heating systems and their operations than probably everyone that has posted here! I always get a laugh when the weekend pros just their advice...
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Old 09-10-2018, 05:51 PM   #42
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It is the AFUE.
Explain who and how those numbers are figured and explain how their numbers correlate to true efficiency?
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Old 09-10-2018, 06:14 PM   #43
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Default Installer recommendations

Does anyone have recommendations of quality install companies in the lakes region??? That is truly what I"m looking for.

Thank you

Charlie T
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Old 09-10-2018, 06:15 PM   #44
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Explain who and how those numbers are figured and explain how their numbers correlate to true efficiency?
I don't answer to you. Figure it out yourself, it's obvious. How's your car doing, lol. Those old cars you from the 60s to the 80s were trash. Or those poorly made planes they make these days you fly on? They still in the air? You know jack. Stop derailing this thread with your nonsense.

If you tell me that new toasters at Walmart don't match up with older ones....than we can agree. Cars & planes. No sell.
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Old 09-11-2018, 06:38 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by swnoel View Post
LOL... cars of yesteryear had more metal in their front fenders than most cars today have in their entirety! I use to be able to fix my own ...today you need a multi thousand dollar computer do do just about anything! I don't care what you do ... but I can assure you that I've forgotten more about heating systems and their operations than probably everyone that has posted here! I always get a laugh when the weekend pros just their advice...
This is a silly comparison. Cars today are light years ahead of cars built 30 years ago regardless of how much metal they had in them. This is where I get to laugh.
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Old 09-11-2018, 06:41 AM   #46
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Does anyone have recommendations of quality install companies in the lakes region??? That is truly what I"m looking for.

Thank you

Charlie T
swnoel Sorry, I couldn't resist.
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