Sailboat Tubing

[DRH]

We saw this interesting sight near Cub and Treasure Islands today ... a sailboat (under power) pulling a tube! The sailboat is a MacGregor, which is a combination sailboat/powerboat. Kind of interesting to see a sailboat throwing a wake!

[Rattlesnake Gal]

That was great Don! Thanks for sharing it with us. A very unusual sight for sure.

[Island Girl]

That is called maximizing your options.

[Rattlesnake Gal]

I bet there are a lot of frustrated sailors out there. Not much wind this summer.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Sunday night I saw that boat, no tuber, headed out of Alton Bay. I was wondering what kind of sailboat would be trying to plane. Seemed to have a fair sized outboard hung off the back. Never heard of that type of "blowboat" before, thx for the info.

[jrc]

Finally got to see a Mac 26 in person, at the West Alton sandbar on Sunday. If you read any other boating forums you'll know that this boat model is controversial. Basically some people contend it's more powerboat than sailboat.

http://www.macgregor26.com/table.htm

[DRH]

We've actually seen this boat pulling a water skier before, but I couldn't get the camera out in time to take a picture. I think this MacGregor has about a 50 hp outboard motor. For comparison, our 22' sailboat has a 6 hp "kicker" outboard, which we use only when the wind dies to get back home.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by jrc

Finally got to see a Mac 26 in person, at the West Alton sandbar on Sunday. If you read any other boating forums you'll know that this boat model is controversial. Basically some people contend it's more powerboat than sailboat.

http://www.macgregor26.com/table.htm

Thanks for the link, twas interesting reading ! I was pretty much of the same opinion as a lot of the reviewers; power-sailboats are ducks that won't quack. But now this has stirred some neurons so let me ask a question if I may. Given the ballast is primarily there to counteract the rolling forces of the wind on sail (?), I might ask if there's yet another way to skin this cat. Could one use foils below the water line to exert counter-acting forces? This would be less weighty and perhaps even less drag (same foils could also tend to lift the now lighter hull out of the water). If I'm not totally missing something (entirely likely as my sailing experince is mostly windsurfing), I think this could work. Perhaps has already been done ?? Anyway just some musings for your consideration ...

[trfour]

What are these?

From the 1920s

Over eighty feet long, held the water speed record from 1920, into the early sixtys, for this size boat! Twinn V 12 aircraft engines, with dual ignition systems, Lets do the math here.....,, 48 spark plugs... and so on! "Not a cheap tune up, even at VIP's prices!".... Are you listening, FLL!?.... and the wooden props that propelled her, were disigned by the inventer, him self. This Boat would have sailed sooner, the boat was ready, 1900, but the inventer had to work with the US Gouvernment on the design of the engines, as well.

Does hydrofoil, come to mind?

Guess who!

A. G. Bell.

Thank you Don,.... I owe you one!


and don't be surprised, if you see some of these photos at, Waldo Peppers.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by trfour

Over eighty feet long, held the water speed record from 1920, into the early sixtys, for this size boat! Twinn V 12 aircraft engines, and the wooden props that propelled her, were disigned by the inventer, him self. This Boat would have sailed sooner, the boat was ready, 1900, but the inventer had to work with the US Gouvernment on the design of the engines, as well.
Does hydrafoil, come to mind?

Funny how it looks like the Russian ekranoplans mentioned earlier in this year on this forum I did a little research on my musing above and while the idea wasn't explicitly found there was a concept similar enough. Sailing hydrofoils abound and use their lifting foils to sail w/less heeling and more speed. I had imagined a single non-lifting foil in place of a center or dagger -board. Because the foil would counter act the heeling forces you wouldn't need the extra ballast weight and so be "truer" to the Mac26 concept. Of course the problem is that a sailboat must handle both port and starboard tacks and so a normal foil shape won't do. I was envisioning some complex ways of reshaping the foil in real-time but the (already extant) idea of using a trim tab on the -board does the same thing (conceptually). As I always say 99% of ideas are useless and 99% of the remaining 1% have already been done

[trfour]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

Funny how it looks like the Russian ekranoplans mentioned earlier in this year on this forum I did a little research on my musing above and while the idea wasn't explicitly found there was a concept similar enough. Sailing hydrofoils abound and use their lifting foils to sail w/less heeling and more speed. I had imagined a single non-lifting foil in place of a center or dagger -board. Because the foil would counter act the heeling forces you wouldn't need the extra ballast weight and so be "truer" to the Mac26 concept. Of course the problem is that a sailboat must handle both port and starboard tacks and so a normal foil shape won't do. I was envisioning some complex ways of reshaping the foil in real-time but the (already extant) idea of using a trim tab on the -board does the same thing (conceptually). As I always say 99% of ideas are useless and 99% of the remaining 1% have already been done

I was only trying to support a long time friend out here in, "Don Hughes."

Where are you going?

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by trfour

I was only trying to support a long time friend out here in, "Don Hughes."
Where are you going?

Apparently in circles .... Not being a sailor I was wondering what that wierd watercraft I saw last Sun was and bam ! .... D.H. puts up a post w/a pic of said boat. Reading the Mac26 articles made me wonder if there was a another way to achieve the principle behind the boat, light weight for power-boating (and trailering) while still retaining "sailability". Instead of taking on ballast to counteract healing I wondered if something more modern could be done and of course it's been done (tabs on centerboard = my under water foil musing).

My interest in 'foils comes about as part enginerdness plus part cheapness (foil efficiency = less $$ spent on gas) I often wonder if it's an old (as your pics show) idea whose time as come (given modern, cheap control systems). Imagine faster boats using less gas, indifferent to the chop and leaving little to no wake. If only I was; a) smart and b) had degrees in aeronautical engineering instead EE. Oh well

[madrasahs]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

My interest in 'foils comes about as part enginerdness plus part cheapness (foil efficiency = less $$ spent on gas)...Imagine faster boats using less gas, indifferent to the chop and leaving little to no wake. If only I was; a) smart and b) had degrees in aeronautical engineering instead EE. Oh well

You might like to browse these foil sites:
http://www.foils.org/yourown.htm (Pedal-powered)
http://wingo.com/dakh/ (Add-on foils by DAK)

"DAK Hydrofoils is bringing out hydrofoil kits and plans for yachts weighing from one to several tons. Can you imagine you and your friends flying smoothly across the seas at speeds of 20 to 30 knots or more, in a moderate tradewind or afternoon onshore breeze? They should add: "And always be the 'stand-on' boat".

Although sailing analog foilers (Rave) can be bought off-the-shelf for about $8,000, there's a hard landing for the skipper -- after the thrill -- should he hit a mush-boater wake at 30 MPH.

I doubt that foils will ever become sail-marketable again: too steep a learning curve, and too prone to damage from debris, storms, and large water critters.

What's the point anyway, when a standard sail catamaran crossed the Atlantic last month at 30 Knots average speed, and a faster stepped-hull sail catamaran is again in the works!

Foil engineers (which include a few EEs) design around sailboats because everything on a sailboat IS a foil: Sails, keel, rudder, hull.

BTW: Aren't all EEs unemployed nowadays?

[trfour]

Don Hughes, is a wonderful and long time inventer here, just check out all of his photos!

I thaught it befitting to add another great inventer, to one of his posts!

I realy don't think that he would mind the compliment!



http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_...er_Graham.html


Thank you Don, for all that you do for us all!

[madrasahs]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

"...My interest in 'foils comes about as part enginerdness plus part cheapness (foil efficiency = less $$ spent on gas) I often wonder if it's an old (as your pics show) idea whose time as come (given modern, cheap control systems). Imagine faster boats using less gas, indifferent to the chop and leaving little to no wake. If only I was; a) smart and b) had degrees in aeronautical engineering instead EE. Oh well."

Hydrofoils seem to work best at speeds up to 35MPH; otherwise, there's too much cavitation at the foils, preventing higher speeds. Hydrofoils therefore lend themselves best to sailing speeds. One of the world's fastest non-foil sailboats (40+ Knots) just sold for $2M, which is a cheap way to sail fast.

There's lots of activity in Europe and Australia with sailing hydrofoils. This site has an "artsy photo" too large to post:

http://www.hydroptere.com/ (It's an aerial photo showing a 60-foot trimaran with hydrofoils, which are the large surfaces towards the top of the photo). Note the size of the crewman on the bow.

Here's one from US Navy engineers (the "Monitor"):

Another from the June issue of "Yachting World" (UK magazine -- 2004 Nationals). The boat is airborne, but is a little difficult to see, as the water is a very dark blue:

(This one is best sailed "solo").

[GWC...]

Some interesting pictures and video of the WindRider Rave, a hydrofoil assisted trimaran.

[upthesaukee]

Yep, just we need...a sailboat that can go faster than I can in my 19 ft bowrider, can out maneuver me, and I have to give way to it!!!! time to get out the Rugged Rubber Baby Bumpers and put them around the boat.

[madrasahs]

Yes, GWC has made my day.

However, in multi-hull sailing, there's plenty of thrills-per-minute -- without hydrofoils.

The Rave video shows course-corrections just for the relatively small wake of the videographer's boat. (Where the crew get wet).

Videos were available for the Hobie Tri-Foiler (no longer on the market).


Fast enough, but at 22 feet long, and 18-feet wide, @ 35Knots, upthesaukee would need to put away the fenders and stay home. The Tri-Foiler would use up too many of "Winnipesaukee acres-per-minute" -- and the Tri-Foiler would be the "stand-on" boat!

Here's mostly motorized hydrofoil development from the 50s: http://www.foils.org/gallery/1950.htm

The site even has some hydrofoilgeek for Mac. For reasons unknown, hydrofoils seem to be the realm of geezers.

"...We knew this from the start but installed the feeler/incidence controlled system while developing an electronic autopilot with zero spatial anticipation and a coordinated turn and bank that worked very well...The system was later further developed by Marine Systems Corp. If you do use a mechanical control system with surface feelers, I highly recommend...control flaps and not incidence of the foil."

There's Marine Corps landing craft on foils -- even a DUKW on foils: 35 Knots!

[KBoater]

I just returned from a cruise and had a good chuckle today when a tri-hull sailboat that was under power with ticketed by the sheriff for a NO WAKE violation. He was running under power(no sails up) in a channel and passing everyone coming in both directions at close distances while putting up quite a wake. I’m not sure what his engine was but it was an attached outboard. He was pulled over directly in front of the Coast Guard station in the inner harbor. That is like going full speed in the Weirs channel.

[Will]

Hey mad,

Isnt that macgregor just like the one you have with the 150 Optimax on it?

Will

[Puff4]

Actually, MacGregors are pretty nice boats. True, they're neither fish-nor-foul and purists sometimes cringe because they aren't really 'great' at either sailing or powering, but they actually do each one amazingly well, while at the same time offering an extremely roomy and comfortable plaform for a small family - they sleep 6 and have a private head and a full galley, features my lady 'Admiral' very much appreciates. We've even lived on our Mac on the Lake for over a week quite comfortably, and you can't really do that on many power boats of less than 26 feet.

As a 'powersailor' the Mac gives the option of either towing the kids on a tube (as shown) - or on even on skiis (yes, really!) - or of having a nice quiet sailing afternoon out in the broads. But a key difference is that you can get back home fast if you're out sailing and weather quickly turns for the worse... a distinct safety advantage when you're boating with the Admiral and your little ones. The Mac has a swing keel and water ballast, so in addition to being easily traliered, they can also travel into extremely shallow waters [9" draft!] or can even be beached with no problem... overall, it's a great little boat for Winnipesaukee.

We tow ours up from Philadelphia and sail on the Lake every year, and we're planning to be back again in mid-August, so don't be surprised if you see more than one Mac towing some excited kids! We sail & motor mostly from around 19-mile Bay and up into Moultonboro Bay, but we've been down to Wolfeboro and lots of other places on the Lake, too. Actually, I first learned to sail on LW back when I was only 8 years old - over 41 years ago (yikes!) and now my two boys are learning there as well.

Here's our Mac, beached for an evening on the Lake after a day of towing our sons on their raft (note the mast is in the 'stowed' position here)...


(extra points if you can guess where this was taken )

... and a pic of the interior, with a bit of the galley visible on the left, the head door on the right... and there are two more roomy berths aft, below the cockpit, which are not shown...

[Mee-n-Mac]

So was it your Mac26 that DRH photo'ed that day ? As I said in the earlier post I hadn't seen that type of boat before and did a double take (looks like a powerboat but it's got a mast, WT?!?) when I saw one on-plane headed out of Alton Bay. Twas funny that DRH posted the pics he took just a few days later. Could that be Sleepers and Cub I's in the background ?

Going back to when I had 2 neurons to rub together and thinking about combining the (relative) lightness of powerboat with water ballasting for sail operation made me wonder if there wasn't another way to skin that cat. Keeping with the "lighter is better" philiosophy and substituting hydrodynamic force for ballast weight, has anyone tried a tabbed centerboard or swing keel-type centerboard in Mac ? I'm not sure how easy it would be to mechanize such an operation (swing keel probably practically impossible) on a removable centerboard but I'd bet some enterprising person could do (? has done ?) it. For that matter I wonder if conventional powerboat trim tabs (ala Bennett) wouldn't reduce the heeling enough to make up for any additional drag ? In any case I'll say purists cringing about how "un-great" the boat sails are like people complaining about how bad a flying pig would fly ... instead of marveling that a pig could fly at all.

[DRH]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

So was it your Mac26 that DRH photo'ed that day ? As I said in the earlier post I hadn't seen that type of boat before and did a double take (looks like a powerboat but it's got a mast, WT?!?) when I saw one on-plane headed out of Alton Bay. Twas funny that DRH posted the pics he took just a few days later. Could that be Sleepers and Cub I's in the background ?

Mee-n-Mac ... In my original picture Cub Island is on the left and center, with Treasure on the right. The big hump in the back, of course, is Rattlesnake. I don't think it's Sleepers and Cub Islands in Puff4's picture.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by DRH

Mee-n-Mac ... In my original picture Cub Island is on the left and center, with Treasure on the right. The big hump in the back, of course, is Rattlesnake. I don't think it's Sleepers and Cub Islands in Puff4's picture.

Yup, I have to agree looking back at your original picture. The slope of what would have to be Rattlesnake I in the background is wrong. No extra points for me

[Tacit Blue]

That was actually my boat in the photo. I'm usually sailing, but that day I was on the lake with the family, and the kids wanted to go tubing. I happened to come across this site a few weeks ago and was surprized to find this thread and the photo of my boat. I must admit that the Macgregor 26X is not the fastest sailboat nor the best power boat, but having a boat that can do both reasonably well, keeps the whole family happy.
I keep it on the trailer at Ames Farm, but also bring it up to Lake Champlain and the Maine coast every year.
NE-TS (New England Trailer Sailors) will be having it's Winnipesaukee rendezvous later this month (May 20-22). We will be staying at Fay's Boatyard. NE-TS is a group comprised of mostly Macgregors, but any type of trailerable sailboat is welcome.