Gray water drain rules

Dave R · 05-18-2005, 12:34 PM

Recently purchased a used boat with two sinks on board and gray water drains that go directly to through hulls and out of the boat. I have no intention of draining soap suds out of them or anything but will I get in trouble for just having these drains in operable condition?

GWC... · 05-18-2005, 12:45 PM

If your "new to you boat" is used on the Lake in its present condition, yes.

Dave R · 05-18-2005, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GWC...

If your "new to you boat" is used on the Lake in its present condition, yes.

What's necessary to make it legal? Can I just disconnect the drain hoses and plug them or is it necessary to install a gray water holding tank?

Steve · 05-18-2005, 01:59 PM

Hi Dave-

I'm pretty sure you can disconnect the hoses and plug them up, or route the hoses to the holding tank. You basically have to show that there's no way the water can drain overboard if you're inspected. This is usually by either locking a Y valve or disconnecting the hose from the thru hull.

There must be info online. I'll try to find the RSA for you.

Can't wait to see the new Regal on Winnie!

Steve

lakershaker · 05-18-2005, 02:08 PM

When WAM put my boat in the water, they installed a plug in the bottom of my sink drain, and said that was sufficient. I am planning on removing the hose from the hull hole and using a holding tank under the sink when I can get around to it.

Dave R · 05-18-2005, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

Hi Dave-

I'm pretty sure you can disconnect the hoses and plug them up, or route the hoses to the holding tank. You basically have to show that there's no way the water can drain overboard if you're inspected. This is usually by either locking a Y valve or disconnecting the hose from the thru hull.

There must be info online. I'll try to find the RSA for you.

Can't wait to see the new Regal on Winnie!

Steve

Nor can I, nor can I... Look for it on Saturday if your up there. Gonna have a maiden voyage rain or shine. Hope it's as quiet as my old Regal. Sounded loud on the muffs which is fine in my driveway but not what I want on the water.

Skip · 05-18-2005, 02:58 PM

TITLE L
WATER MANAGEMENT AND PROTECTION
CHAPTER 487
CONTROL OF MARINE POLLUTION AND AQUATIC GROWTH
Marine Toilets and Disposal of Sewage from Boats
Section 487:3
487:3 Restrictions on Sinks and Showers. – No sink or shower on any boat operated upon the fresh waters of the state shall be so constructed or operated as to discharge any graywater into said waters either directly or indirectly.
Source. 1989, 339:1, eff. Jan. 1, 1990.

jrc · 05-18-2005, 03:33 PM

I wonder about transom/swim platform showers. They seem to be legal but what's the difference between them and an internal shower. Is it just an assumption that people won't use soap while rinsing off on the swim platform.

Skip · 05-18-2005, 03:53 PM

Ah,

Pardon the pun, but it looks like you've stumbled into to a gray area!

The key is the subsection stating receptacles intended to receive or retain body wastes or graywater .

Standing on a swim platform rinsing down does not appear to be a violation. Introducing body wastes (or foreign matter, like soap/shampoo) would constitute a violation.

Its kind of like the conundrum over the definition of "houseboat" or "overnight anchoring".

Anyway, the RSA with definitions for your perusal:

TITLE L
WATER MANAGEMENT AND PROTECTION
CHAPTER 487
CONTROL OF MARINE POLLUTION AND AQUATIC GROWTH
Marine Toilets and Disposal of Sewage from Boats
Section 487:1
487:1 Definitions. – As used in this chapter:
I. "Boats" means any vessel or watercraft whether moved by oars, paddles, sails or other power mechanism, inboard or outboard, or any other vessel or structure floating upon the water whether or not capable of self locomotion, including but not limited to house boats, barges and similar floating objects.
I-a. "Commissioner" means the commissioner of the department of environmental services.
II. "Department" means the department of environmental services.
III. "Graywater" means galley, bath, and shower water.
IV. "Marine toilet" means any toilet on or within any boat as that term is defined herein.
V. "Sewage" means human body wastes and graywater, plus wastes from toilets, sinks, showers, and other receptacles intended to receive or retain body wastes or graywater.
VI. "Waters of this state" means waters classified, or unclassified, as defined in RSA 485-A.
Source. 1989, 339:1. 1996, 228:95, 96, eff. July 1, 1996.

pmj · 05-18-2005, 09:25 PM

We were inquiring about this at a local marina and were told that if we don't keep any water in the holding tank because we have no intent on using it, then there is no gray water and thus it may not have to be plugged. We have an above waterline thru-hull from the galley sink. Has anyone heard this?

pmj

Skip · 05-19-2005, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pmj

We were inquiring about this at a local marina and were told that if we don't keep any water in the holding tank because we have no intent on using it, then there is no gray water and thus it may not have to be plugged. We have an above waterline thru-hull from the galley sink. Has anyone heard this?

pmj

I think this would be in violation of RSA 487:3 ...shall be constructed...to discharge gray water.

Water or no water in the supply tank, it appears that your vessel (with no tank to hold gray water, just direct discharge) is in violation of the previously cited section.

I have also attached the link to the page in the NH on-line boater's guide giving a more detailed description of sewage and discharge requirements in both federal and state waters. Hope this helps....

http://www.boat-ed.com/nh/course/p4-...edischarge.htm

ApS · 05-19-2005, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

I wonder about transom/swim platform showers. They seem to be legal but what's the difference between them and an internal shower. Is it just an assumption that people won't use soap while rinsing off on the swim platform.

I see "soaping off" on swim platforms every season in my square mile of Winnipesaukee. Until this thread appeared, who knew the legal (however well enforced it may be) consequences? Where's the Marine Patrol Auxiliary on this?

Oh well, I've spent some time down in US coastal waters where such activities are common, so that explains why I am a little more tolerant when up yonder.

codeman671 · 05-19-2005, 06:30 AM

Anyone "soaping off" should be using a biodegradable soap (in a perfect world full of informed boaters that is!) made for boat use such as Sun Shower Soap made by Stearns. Boat/US and West Marine sell it as many other nautical store I woud imagine. It works well.

PROPELLER · 05-19-2005, 07:05 AM

The DES has said that NO cleaning products, even biodegradable ones, used to clean boats is acceptable. Does this also mean the biodegradable soaps that humans use, the ones that are sold say for instance in camping stores & the Fun & Sports Parafanalia store in Gilford? There are also many boat cleaning products that do not have phosphates (or is that the same thing as biodegradable) & the DES has said that is not acceptable.

Personally, I do not see the need for anyone to soap up in the lake. Take a shower before you leave home or wait until you get home. Also most of the overnight marinas have shower facilities. However, you can not take your boat home for a shower if you do not have a trailer or its not trailerable.

There is a list of acceptable cleaning products posted in the MVYC office. Lemon juice & Boraxo are a couple of the things on the list but its not clear if this list is acceptable to the DES. When I called them last year I was told nothing could be used on your boat in the water except water.

BroadHopper · 05-19-2005, 07:58 AM

Now this is funny. I always wash my boat at the Glendale docks in plain view of the MP's. They never said a word. Of course I make sure the soap and cleaning products I use is biodegradeable.
I also ocassionally wash up at the beach next to the Glendale docks. I use ivory soap. Again I never heard a word from the MPs. I wonder what is going on????
Almost all boat owners pull the bilge plug from their boat as soon as the boat is on the trailer. I've seen really dirty and or oily water spilling out of the boats. This water eventually drain back into the lake. Is this against the law??? Again the MPs take no action.
What burns me is the cigarette smokers. Always filicking the cigarette butts in the water. Now that is not biodegradeable and it take years to compost it. I think there should be a law against it.

PROPELLER · 05-19-2005, 08:04 AM

This is the website I was referring to in my earlier post. A list of things that can be used to clean your boat & is suppose to be environmentally safe. However, I do not know if the NH DES approves of this list.

Its interesting that while perusing the DES website I could not find anything about washing boats in the water or humans soaping up in the water. Maybe I did not look hard enough. But it did talk about marinas washing boats out of the water.

http://boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/vessel_cleaning.htm

PROPELLER · 05-19-2005, 08:10 AM

Broadhopper, I would say Ivory soap is a NO NO. With regard to the Marine Patrol, maybe thats not something they are empowered to enforce, I'm not sure but I do know if one of the DES officers that you may see around the lake, sometimes you see them walking & boating in the marinas, they also do the inspections on the waste tanks mentioned in earlier posts, they will say something. I know someone who was told not to wash his boat in the water while he was washing it one day.

Dave R · 05-19-2005, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

What burns me is the cigarette smokers. Always filicking the cigarette butts in the water. Now that is not biodegradeable and it take years to compost it. I think there should be a law against it.

There is, it's defined as littering, I'm sure.

That one little action gives all smokers a bad image for most of the non-smoking population (well, the smell doesn't exactly help the image either). Seems that a campaign to stop smokers from tossing butts would make huge strides towards more tolerance of smoking in general.

Dave R · 05-19-2005, 08:11 AM

Thanks to all who responded to my questions.

Skip · 05-19-2005, 08:24 AM

For those of you curious, here is the littering RSA (and it does include throwing objects form boats into waterways)

TITLE XII
PUBLIC SAFETY AND WELFARE
CHAPTER 163-B
LITTER CONTROL LAW
Section 163-B:3
163-B:3 Unlawful Activities. – It shall be unlawful for any person or persons to dump, deposit, throw or leave, or to cause or permit the dumping, depositing, placing, throwing or leaving of litter on any public or private property in this state, or in or on ice or in any waters in this state, unless:
I. Such property is designated by the state or by any of its agencies or political subdivisions for the disposal of such litter, and such person is authorized by the proper public authority to use such property;
II. Such litter is placed into a litter receptacle or container installed on such property;
III. Such person is the owner or tenant in lawful possession of such property, or has first obtained consent of the owner or tenant in lawful possession, or unless the act is done under the personal direction of said owner or tenant, all in a manner consistent with the public welfare.
Source. 1971, 144:1, eff. July 25, 1971.

In addition, RSA 163-B:6 authorizes any law enforcement official in the State to enforce littering regulations.

Finally, back to PROPELLOR's observation that gray water regulations are more the area of enforcement of DES officials, he is exactly right....those regulations are typically handled by DES officers. And believe me, you don't want to get on the wrong end of DES in one of these cases!

PROPELLER · 05-19-2005, 02:28 PM

Ok, here it is directly from DES. I called them & the gentleman I spoke to said that only products without phosphates should be used when washing your boat in the lake. However, here is the difficult part, you are not to wash it off in the lake. You are to mop it up or wipe it up with a sponge & dispose of it in a bucket & that bucket of water & suds should be disposed of somewhere where it will go into the sewer system. Otherwise it can go directly back into the lake.

Biodegradable only means that it dissipates quicker & does not leave suds or much of suds. It does not mean you can wash it off into the lake. Nothing can be discharged into the lake, this also means bilge water. I did not ask him if you are suppose to disconnect your automatic bilge pump & risk sinking your boat. The EPA came down hard on them a few years back.

Obviously, this means you can only wash the top decks of your boat in this manner because washing the sides will be impossible to keep it from running down the sides into the water.

This also means that soaping up in the lake even with biodegrable soap as mentioned by Codeman671 & Broadhopper soaps up at the beach, this is against DES & EPA regulations & is not allowed.

Good Luck

Misty Blue · 05-19-2005, 10:27 PM

Dave:

I guess that you know by now that our Lake is a zero discharge body. No black water, no grey water, no nothing! So what do you do?

I had the same problem with the old Misty (built in 78). For about fifty bucks I got a small holding tank from Boat/US and installed it under my sink. The tank has a vent which I directed (tygon tube) to the original overboard thru-hull fitting so that the sink drains well and the Lake can't leak in through the hole in the hull. The tank has a drain fitting that I put a valve on and when necessary drain to a buckett and dump into the head on shore.

It is a cheap, fun project (Heck it's on your boat!) and when you are done not only will you be legal (That's for you Skip!) but you will feel good about protecting our Lake. Have a ball!

Misty Blue

Aquadeziac · 05-21-2005, 08:02 PM

Buy a cheap plastic one gallon gas can and run plastic hose from sink drain to the can. Voila! Instant grey water tank. I have one under my sink in my head and run hose from galley sink and head sink into one can. Or you can get elaborate and plumb your sink drains to your porta-potty/holding tank.

05-18-2005, 12:34 PM	#1
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,974 Thanks: 246 Thanked 736 Times in 438 Posts	Gray water drain rules Recently purchased a used boat with two sinks on board and gray water drains that go directly to through hulls and out of the boat. I have no intention of draining soap suds out of them or anything but will I get in trouble for just having these drains in operable condition?

05-18-2005, 12:45 PM	#2
GWC... Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,325 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	yes... If your "new to you boat" is used on the Lake in its present condition, yes.

05-18-2005, 02:08 PM	#5
lakershaker Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Rattlesnake Isl. - Simsbury, CT Posts: 271 Thanks: 90 Thanked 44 Times in 26 Posts	Drain Plugs When WAM put my boat in the water, they installed a plug in the bottom of my sink drain, and said that was sufficient. I am planning on removing the hose from the hull hole and using a holding tank under the sink when I can get around to it.

05-18-2005, 02:58 PM	#7
Skip Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Dover, NH Posts: 1,615 Thanks: 256 Thanked 514 Times in 182 Posts	Gray Water RSA.... TITLE L WATER MANAGEMENT AND PROTECTION CHAPTER 487 CONTROL OF MARINE POLLUTION AND AQUATIC GROWTH Marine Toilets and Disposal of Sewage from Boats Section 487:3 487:3 Restrictions on Sinks and Showers. – No sink or shower on any boat operated upon the fresh waters of the state shall be so constructed or operated as to discharge any graywater into said waters either directly or indirectly. Source. 1989, 339:1, eff. Jan. 1, 1990.

05-18-2005, 03:53 PM	#9
Skip Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Dover, NH Posts: 1,615 Thanks: 256 Thanked 514 Times in 182 Posts	definitions.... Ah, Pardon the pun, but it looks like you've stumbled into to a gray area! The key is the subsection stating receptacles intended to receive or retain body wastes or graywater . Standing on a swim platform rinsing down does not appear to be a violation. Introducing body wastes (or foreign matter, like soap/shampoo) would constitute a violation. Its kind of like the conundrum over the definition of "houseboat" or "overnight anchoring". Anyway, the RSA with definitions for your perusal: TITLE L WATER MANAGEMENT AND PROTECTION CHAPTER 487 CONTROL OF MARINE POLLUTION AND AQUATIC GROWTH Marine Toilets and Disposal of Sewage from Boats Section 487:1 487:1 Definitions. – As used in this chapter: I. "Boats" means any vessel or watercraft whether moved by oars, paddles, sails or other power mechanism, inboard or outboard, or any other vessel or structure floating upon the water whether or not capable of self locomotion, including but not limited to house boats, barges and similar floating objects. I-a. "Commissioner" means the commissioner of the department of environmental services. II. "Department" means the department of environmental services. III. "Graywater" means galley, bath, and shower water. IV. "Marine toilet" means any toilet on or within any boat as that term is defined herein. V. "Sewage" means human body wastes and graywater, plus wastes from toilets, sinks, showers, and other receptacles intended to receive or retain body wastes or graywater. VI. "Waters of this state" means waters classified, or unclassified, as defined in RSA 485-A. Source. 1989, 339:1. 1996, 228:95, 96, eff. July 1, 1996.

05-18-2005, 01:59 PM	#4
Steve Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Southern NH Posts: 109 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Dave- I'm pretty sure you can disconnect the hoses and plug them up, or route the hoses to the holding tank. You basically have to show that there's no way the water can drain overboard if you're inspected. This is usually by either locking a Y valve or disconnecting the hose from the thru hull. There must be info online. I'll try to find the RSA for you. Can't wait to see the new Regal on Winnie! Steve

05-18-2005, 03:33 PM	#8
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	I wonder about transom/swim platform showers. They seem to be legal but what's the difference between them and an internal shower. Is it just an assumption that people won't use soap while rinsing off on the swim platform.

05-18-2005, 09:25 PM	#10
pmj Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 240 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	We were inquiring about this at a local marina and were told that if we don't keep any water in the holding tank because we have no intent on using it, then there is no gray water and thus it may not have to be plugged. We have an above waterline thru-hull from the galley sink. Has anyone heard this? pmj

05-19-2005, 06:30 AM	#13
codeman671 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,360 Thanks: 210 Thanked 764 Times in 448 Posts	Soaping off... Anyone "soaping off" should be using a biodegradable soap (in a perfect world full of informed boaters that is!) made for boat use such as Sun Shower Soap made by Stearns. Boat/US and West Marine sell it as many other nautical store I woud imagine. It works well.

05-19-2005, 07:05 AM	#14
PROPELLER Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 340 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Biodegradable soaps The DES has said that NO cleaning products, even biodegradable ones, used to clean boats is acceptable. Does this also mean the biodegradable soaps that humans use, the ones that are sold say for instance in camping stores & the Fun & Sports Parafanalia store in Gilford? There are also many boat cleaning products that do not have phosphates (or is that the same thing as biodegradable) & the DES has said that is not acceptable. Personally, I do not see the need for anyone to soap up in the lake. Take a shower before you leave home or wait until you get home. Also most of the overnight marinas have shower facilities. However, you can not take your boat home for a shower if you do not have a trailer or its not trailerable. There is a list of acceptable cleaning products posted in the MVYC office. Lemon juice & Boraxo are a couple of the things on the list but its not clear if this list is acceptable to the DES. When I called them last year I was told nothing could be used on your boat in the water except water.

05-19-2005, 07:58 AM	#15
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,512 Thanks: 3,118 Thanked 1,090 Times in 784 Posts	boat wash. Now this is funny. I always wash my boat at the Glendale docks in plain view of the MP's. They never said a word. Of course I make sure the soap and cleaning products I use is biodegradeable. I also ocassionally wash up at the beach next to the Glendale docks. I use ivory soap. Again I never heard a word from the MPs. I wonder what is going on???? Almost all boat owners pull the bilge plug from their boat as soon as the boat is on the trailer. I've seen really dirty and or oily water spilling out of the boats. This water eventually drain back into the lake. Is this against the law??? Again the MPs take no action. What burns me is the cigarette smokers. Always filicking the cigarette butts in the water. Now that is not biodegradeable and it take years to compost it. I think there should be a law against it. __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.

05-19-2005, 08:04 AM	#16
PROPELLER Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 340 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	This is the website I was referring to in my earlier post. A list of things that can be used to clean your boat & is suppose to be environmentally safe. However, I do not know if the NH DES approves of this list. Its interesting that while perusing the DES website I could not find anything about washing boats in the water or humans soaping up in the water. Maybe I did not look hard enough. But it did talk about marinas washing boats out of the water. http://boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/vessel_cleaning.htm

05-19-2005, 08:10 AM	#17
PROPELLER Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 340 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Broadhopper, I would say Ivory soap is a NO NO. With regard to the Marine Patrol, maybe thats not something they are empowered to enforce, I'm not sure but I do know if one of the DES officers that you may see around the lake, sometimes you see them walking & boating in the marinas, they also do the inspections on the waste tanks mentioned in earlier posts, they will say something. I know someone who was told not to wash his boat in the water while he was washing it one day.

05-19-2005, 08:11 AM	#19
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,974 Thanks: 246 Thanked 736 Times in 438 Posts	Thanks to all who responded to my questions.

05-19-2005, 08:24 AM	#20
Skip Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Dover, NH Posts: 1,615 Thanks: 256 Thanked 514 Times in 182 Posts	Littering RSA.... For those of you curious, here is the littering RSA (and it does include throwing objects form boats into waterways) TITLE XII PUBLIC SAFETY AND WELFARE CHAPTER 163-B LITTER CONTROL LAW Section 163-B:3 163-B:3 Unlawful Activities. – It shall be unlawful for any person or persons to dump, deposit, throw or leave, or to cause or permit the dumping, depositing, placing, throwing or leaving of litter on any public or private property in this state, or in or on ice or in any waters in this state, unless: I. Such property is designated by the state or by any of its agencies or political subdivisions for the disposal of such litter, and such person is authorized by the proper public authority to use such property; II. Such litter is placed into a litter receptacle or container installed on such property; III. Such person is the owner or tenant in lawful possession of such property, or has first obtained consent of the owner or tenant in lawful possession, or unless the act is done under the personal direction of said owner or tenant, all in a manner consistent with the public welfare. Source. 1971, 144:1, eff. July 25, 1971. In addition, RSA 163-B:6 authorizes any law enforcement official in the State to enforce littering regulations. Finally, back to PROPELLOR's observation that gray water regulations are more the area of enforcement of DES officials, he is exactly right....those regulations are typically handled by DES officers. And believe me, you don't want to get on the wrong end of DES in one of these cases!

05-19-2005, 02:28 PM	#21
PROPELLER Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 340 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ok, here it is directly from DES. I called them & the gentleman I spoke to said that only products without phosphates should be used when washing your boat in the lake. However, here is the difficult part, you are not to wash it off in the lake. You are to mop it up or wipe it up with a sponge & dispose of it in a bucket & that bucket of water & suds should be disposed of somewhere where it will go into the sewer system. Otherwise it can go directly back into the lake. Biodegradable only means that it dissipates quicker & does not leave suds or much of suds. It does not mean you can wash it off into the lake. Nothing can be discharged into the lake, this also means bilge water. I did not ask him if you are suppose to disconnect your automatic bilge pump & risk sinking your boat. The EPA came down hard on them a few years back. Obviously, this means you can only wash the top decks of your boat in this manner because washing the sides will be impossible to keep it from running down the sides into the water. This also means that soaping up in the lake even with biodegrable soap as mentioned by Codeman671 & Broadhopper soaps up at the beach, this is against DES & EPA regulations & is not allowed. Good Luck

05-19-2005, 10:27 PM	#22
Misty Blue Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 658 Thanks: 121 Thanked 283 Times in 98 Posts	Grey water Blues. Dave: I guess that you know by now that our Lake is a zero discharge body. No black water, no grey water, no nothing! So what do you do? I had the same problem with the old Misty (built in 78). For about fifty bucks I got a small holding tank from Boat/US and installed it under my sink. The tank has a vent which I directed (tygon tube) to the original overboard thru-hull fitting so that the sink drains well and the Lake can't leak in through the hole in the hull. The tank has a drain fitting that I put a valve on and when necessary drain to a buckett and dump into the head on shore. It is a cheap, fun project (Heck it's on your boat!) and when you are done not only will you be legal (That's for you Skip!) but you will feel good about protecting our Lake. Have a ball! Misty Blue

05-21-2005, 08:02 PM	#23
Aquadeziac Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Concord NH Posts: 239 Thanks: 19 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Buy a cheap plastic one gallon gas can and run plastic hose from sink drain to the can. Voila! Instant grey water tank. I have one under my sink in my head and run hose from galley sink and head sink into one can. Or you can get elaborate and plumb your sink drains to your porta-potty/holding tank. __________________ "He who dies with the most toys wins"