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Old 06-19-2020, 11:26 AM   #101
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Sorry, I withdraw from the field...not worth the discussion. I know you won’t take that personally.
That's okay. I knew you didn't have the answers.
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Old 06-19-2020, 11:30 AM   #102
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That's okay. I knew you didn't have the answers.
Actually, I probably could for most...just not worth it. I won’t pull a James Brown and not leave.

Stay safe.
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Old 06-19-2020, 11:43 AM   #103
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How many lives have been saved by requiring seatbelt usage in motor vehicles?

How many cases of lung cancer have been prevented due to prohibiting smoking in restaurants and airplanes?

How many lives have been saved due to speed limits on roadways?

Any numbers are educated conjecture. No one can factually answer your questions. However, there are highly trained and educated epidemiologists and statisticians who can forecast morbidity and mortality. On the other side of the spectrum are people who know nothing of epidemiology and statistical forecasts who treat this all like it’s a bunch of bunk. When Galileo proposed that the sun was the center of our solar system he was labeled a heretic by the church! Those were the two sides of that spectrum back then. Heck there are people who believe the world is flat and no amount of “hocus-pocus science” will prove to them otherwise! I wish you luck on your quest for answers.


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Old 06-19-2020, 12:14 PM   #104
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How many lives have been saved by requiring seatbelt usage in motor vehicles?

How many cases of lung cancer have been prevented due to prohibiting smoking in restaurants and airplanes?

How many lives have been saved due to speed limits on roadways?

Any numbers are educated conjecture. No one can factually answer your questions. However, there are highly trained and educated epidemiologists and statisticians who can forecast morbidity and mortality. On the other side of the spectrum are people who know nothing of epidemiology and statistical forecasts who treat this all like it’s a bunch of bunk. When Galileo proposed that the sun was the center of our solar system he was labeled a heretic by the church! Those were the two sides of that spectrum back then. Heck there are people who believe the world is flat and no amount of “hocus-pocus science” will prove to them otherwise! I wish you luck on your quest for answers.


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The so-called experts for the most part are government hacks whose best interest is to gin-up crises to ensure future funds. The so-called experts in January, February and early March said there was nothing to worry about. Go to Chinatown and order your favorite menu item. I wish we had listened to their early recommendations. Usually, ones first instinct is the right instinct. The same can be said for the so-called climate change experts. Their best interest is to create a crisis to ensure funding and wealth transfer.

To answer your first question, I think it should be easy to determine. Measure the number of deaths per year prior to enacting the law and after enacting the law.

The second question is similarly answered - measure the number of deaths attributable to cancer and heart disease before and after enacting the law.

The third question is tricky. The reason why we lowered the speed limit, initially to 50 and then to 55, had nothing to do with safety. The issue was gas (fuel) conservation. The thought being that going slower used less fuel. It has since become a safety issue. I guess we could look at accident deaths before and after the speed limits to determine an answer.

So there are ways to measure the questions you asked. I'm curious to see the data on face masks.
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Old 06-19-2020, 12:33 PM   #105
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I am so sick of the science and facts arguments. If there are science and facts involved, and you are so confident that quarantining, social distancing and masks work, please answer for me --

How many lives have been saved as a result of quarantining a/k/a destroying our economy?
How many lives have been saved because of social distancing?
How many lives have been saved because of wearing masks?
How many cases of Chinese coronavirus have been prevented as a result of quarantining a/k/a destroying our economy?
How many cases of Chinese coronavirus have been prevented because of social distancing?
How many cases of Chinese coronavirus have been prevented because of masks.

You can't answer any of these questions. There will never be any way of knowing. For all we know, these actions may have made the situation worse. All we know is the raw data which is as follows:

Worldwide cases of Chinese coronavirus - 8,621,747
U.S. cases of Chinese coronavirus - 457,338
Worldwide deaths attributable to Chinese coronavirus - 2,265,400
U.S. deaths attributable to Chinese coronavirus - 120,723
*from Worldometer

By contrast the Swine flu, which was not accurately tracked, resulted in the following estimates:

Worldwide cases - 700,000,000 to 1,400,000,000
U.S. cases - 43,000,000 to 89,000,000
Worldwide deaths - 284,000 to 575,000
U.S. deaths, 8,870 to 18,300
*from Wikipedia

From the raw data, an argument exists that what we did in the U.S. caused more deaths than if we had handled it the same way as the Swine Flu. Clearly, given the average age of death from the Chinese coronavirus (82), we did a poor job in protecting the elderly.

Anyway, the raw numbers do not support our over-the-top response. Destroying tens of millions of lives for what?

In the meantime, I'd appreciate answers to my first questions if you have them.
There's an error with one of the numbers. According to Worldometer, there have been 2.2 million covid cases in the US, which is a good thing- otherwise the death rate would be far, far higher than it is! Also it should be noted that the numbers for swine flu are for a year, whereas the covid numbers in the US are only for about 3 months.

I think it's too bad that you're equating the severity of the lockdown, plus all your other grievances with the simple public health measure of wearing a mask in the grocery store, something that could possibly tide us over until some kind of treatment is available. But there's no point in arguing since we don't see it the same way. I sincerely wish you and your family (and all the rest of us) good health and hope you're right that there's no need for so much precaution.
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Old 06-19-2020, 12:56 PM   #106
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For the record, within my circle of friends, none and I mean none of us believe in this nonsense. You should know in fact there is a silent majority who are fed up and on the verge of rebellion. The day is coming (November 3rd) when this will be evident. We are sick and tired of overreaction to Chinese coronavirus and rioting and looting and all the other divisive nonsense.
You can't say you're sick and tired of the "divisive nonsense" if you continuously refer to SARS-CoV-2 as "Chinese coronavirus" and Dr. Anthony Fauci as "Dr. Fraud". That's as divisive anything else I've read on this thread. For what it's worth, Fauci has been an advisor to every US President since Reagan and as such has served under the leadership of both parties. Why didn't you refer to him as "Dr. Fraud" from 1984-Feb 2020? If anything, he's been the most transparent piece to this whole thing. He's continuously said that his only role is to advise what the health risks are in a vacuum, without considering the effects on the economy, social norms, etc. It's up to the policy makers to take the Doctor's thoughts under advisement and weigh them up against the economic advisors' thoughts. Dr. Anthony Fauci didn't shut the economy down on his own. All he did was advise the administration what could happen if social distancing measures weren't put in place. In short, he did his job.

And to your first point, I think you are correct that there is a silent majority who are fed up and on the verge of rebellion, but you're wrong on the demographic. It's women, and they certainly aren't going to vote for the incumbent. And I say that as a middle-aged male.
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Old 06-19-2020, 12:59 PM   #107
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There's an error with one of the numbers. According to Worldometer, there have been 2.2 million covid cases in the US, which is a good thing- otherwise the death rate would be far, far higher than it is! Also it should be noted that the numbers for swine flu are for a year, whereas the covid numbers in the US are only for about 3 months.

I think it's too bad that you're equating the severity of the lockdown, plus all your other grievances with the simple public health measure of wearing a mask in the grocery store, something that could possibly tide us over until some kind of treatment is available. But there's no point in arguing since we don't see it the same way. I sincerely wish you and your family (and all the rest of us) good health and hope you're right that there's no need for so much precaution.
You are correct, it should read as follow --
Worldwide cases of Chinese coronavirus - 8,621,747
U.S. cases of Chinese coronavirus - 2,265,400
Worldwide deaths attributable to Chinese coronavirus - 457,338
U.S. deaths attributable to Chinese coronavirus - 120,723

Thank you for catching the error.

I realize that I won't change anyone's view, much as you won't change mine. My vigilance is to get the other side out there, even if it's unpopular. The media and social media are one sided, and sometimes balance is required. The Forum provides a great venue to share things about the lake and to debate relevant issues in a healthy way.

I hope I'm right too!
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Old 06-19-2020, 01:08 PM   #108
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The so-called experts for the most part are government hacks whose best interest is to gin-up crises to ensure future funds. The so-called experts in January, February and early March said there was nothing to worry about. Go to Chinatown and order your favorite menu item. I wish we had listened to their early recommendations. Usually, ones first instinct is the right instinct. The same can be said for the so-called climate change experts. Their best interest is to create a crisis to ensure funding and wealth transfer.

To answer your first question, I think it should be easy to determine. Measure the number of deaths per year prior to enacting the law and after enacting the law.

The second question is similarly answered - measure the number of deaths attributable to cancer and heart disease before and after enacting the law.

The third question is tricky. The reason why we lowered the speed limit, initially to 50 and then to 55, had nothing to do with safety. The issue was gas (fuel) conservation. The thought being that going slower used less fuel. It has since become a safety issue. I guess we could look at accident deaths before and after the speed limits to determine an answer.

So there are ways to measure the questions you asked. I'm curious to see the data on face masks.
Not that simple Major. There is no way to control for what other factors may have decreased traffic deaths following seatbelt laws and lung cancer rates following smoking bans. Were there other changes to roadway safety and vehicle engineering that may have contributed to the decrease? If lung cancer rates decreased following a smoking ban was it due to the ban or were there other public or workplace pollution control measures that were also enacted around the same time that led to lower cases? Correlation does not equal causation. Also, I wasn’t talking about the 55mph speed limit issue I was talking about speed limits in general....why are they needed at all? When speed limits were first introduced in 1901 cars were far different.

I work in healthcare so my reference to “experts” has nothing to do with the folks you are watching on TV. Statisticians and epidemiologists work in every major healthcare system and not as TV personalities. Their research and recommendations are made within those healthcare systems devoid of governmental interference. Their jobs are not based on pandemics...normal flu cases and other common illness and disease keep them busy enough. There’s no puppet master pulling the strings. Be well!
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Old 06-19-2020, 01:16 PM   #109
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You can't say you're sick and tired of the "divisive nonsense" if you continuously refer to SARS-CoV-2 as "Chinese coronavirus" and Dr. Anthony Fauci as "Dr. Fraud". That's as divisive anything else I've read on this thread. For what it's worth, Fauci has been an advisor to every US President since Reagan and as such has served under the leadership of both parties. Why didn't you refer to him as "Dr. Fraud" from 1984-Feb 2020? If anything, he's been the most transparent piece to this whole thing. He's continuously said that his only role is to advise what the health risks are in a vacuum, without considering the effects on the economy, social norms, etc. It's up to the policy makers to take the Doctor's thoughts under advisement and weigh them up against the economic advisors' thoughts. Dr. Anthony Fauci didn't shut the economy down on his own. All he did was advise the administration what could happen if social distancing measures weren't put in place. In short, he did his job.

And to your first point, I think you are correct that there is a silent majority who are fed up and on the verge of rebellion, but you're wrong on the demographic. It's women, and they certainly aren't going to vote for the incumbent. And I say that as a middle-aged male.
Are you hurt by calling the virus it's real name? It would today be called the "Chinese coronavirus" if we didn't have a PC police. Toughen up.

Regarding Dr. Fraud, he is a fraud. There are clips I can share of him telling us there is nothing to worry about and the President's Chinese travel ban was unnecessary. There are clips in this thread of him stating that masks are ineffective. If this isn't fraudulent, then what is? Here's one "if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor." If our great President did anything to the contrary, Dr. Fraud and the rest of the hucksters would have labeled him a heretic. President Trump had no choice. Dr. Fraud is as culpable as anyone for this mess.

Why would women be against Trump more than against Biden? My wife can't wait to vote for Trump. The other women in my life, the same thing. What makes Biden more virtuous than Trump with women? And don't give me the credible accusations. Just like Kavanaugh's "credible" accuser. A bunch of BS. Creepy Joe didn't earn the moniker for nothing, and has a credible accuser - Tara Reade. You just don't like the President because he says mean things. I suggest you look at what he has accomplished.
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Old 06-19-2020, 01:41 PM   #110
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Are you hurt by calling the virus it's real name? It would today be called the "Chinese coronavirus" if we didn't have a PC police. Toughen up.

Regarding Dr. Fraud, he is a fraud. There are clips I can share of him telling us there is nothing to worry about and the President's Chinese travel ban was unnecessary. There are clips in this thread of him stating that masks are ineffective. If this isn't fraudulent, then what is? Here's one "if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor." If our great President did anything to the contrary, Dr. Fraud and the rest of the hucksters would have labeled him a heretic. President Trump had no choice. Dr. Fraud is as culpable as anyone for this mess.

Why would women be against Trump more than against Biden? My wife can't wait to vote for Trump. The other women in my life, the same thing. What makes Biden more virtuous than Trump with women? And don't give me the credible accusations. Just like Kavanaugh's "credible" accuser. A bunch of BS. Creepy Joe didn't earn the moniker for nothing, and has a credible accuser - Tara Reade. You just don't like the President because he says mean things. I suggest you look at what he has accomplished.
Never said I like or dislike the president. I said that women are overwhelmingly polling against the incumbent, even from right-leaning sources. (I know, polls are "fake news" and admittedly were wrong in 2016). I also never said that Biden was more virtuous than Trump with women. Don't jump to conclusions as you have no idea where I land on the political spectrum and who I support. And if your definition of tough is to use a xenophobic term to describe a pandemic disease and then stoop to demeaning fellow forum members who may have differing opinions, then you're right, I guess I'm not all that tough. I hope you were more accepting of your fellow comrades in the Army who came from all walks of life and all had different world views, assuming you are indeed retired military. If so, thank you for your service.
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Old 06-19-2020, 03:05 PM   #111
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Never said I like or dislike the president. I said that women are overwhelmingly polling against the incumbent, even from right-leaning sources. (I know, polls are "fake news" and admittedly were wrong in 2016). I also never said that Biden was more virtuous than Trump with women. Don't jump to conclusions as you have no idea where I land on the political spectrum and who I support. And if your definition of tough is to use a xenophobic term to describe a pandemic disease and then stoop to demeaning fellow forum members who may have differing opinions, then you're right, I guess I'm not all that tough. I hope you were more accepting of your fellow comrades in the Army who came from all walks of life and all had different world views, assuming you are indeed retired military. If so, thank you for your service.
Ignore Major. He’s the biggest blowhard on this forum.


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Old 06-19-2020, 03:38 PM   #112
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This thread has really gone off the rails.

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Old 06-19-2020, 04:07 PM   #113
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Default Not only has it gone off the rails but...

...those that are regularly contributing to this diatribe are disrespecting what the Webmaster has repeatedly appealed for. If you want to get into this level of political discourse then find an alternative venue. These threads gradually get mired in non-Lakes Region related minutiae to the point that they have no value for anyone other than those seeking a quick laugh. What isn't funny is the disrespect and antipathy that is never too far from the surface. This isn't what the Winnipesaukee Forum is all about.

Take it somewhere else.
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Old 06-19-2020, 04:57 PM   #114
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Ignore Major. He’s the biggest blowhard on this forum.


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“Blowhard?!” Very high praise. Thank you for the compliment!


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Old 06-19-2020, 05:01 PM   #115
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You will be happy to know I was an exceptional officer. I am happy to share my OERs. And for the record I served as an Engineer Officer and a JAG Officer for 24 years combined. I appreciate the well wishes, and I mean it.


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Old 06-19-2020, 05:51 PM   #116
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You will be happy to know I was an exceptional officer. I am happy to share my OERs. And for the record I served as an Engineer Officer and a JAG Officer for 24 years combined. I appreciate the well wishes, and I mean it.


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5 “I”‘s in three sentences. A legend in his own mind.



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Old 06-19-2020, 06:02 PM   #117
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5 “I”‘s in three sentences. A legend in his own mind.

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I was called out about my service. What do you expect, Tbone?


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Old 06-19-2020, 08:17 PM   #118
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This thread reminds me of Jeff Foxworthy, "you can't fix stupid", "here's your sign".🤣

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Old 06-19-2020, 08:40 PM   #119
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My, aren't you virtuous. The smugness oozes from you post. Let's take a look at some of the adjectives to describe you: educated, fearless, considerate, informative, brave, superior. You are certainly the cat's you know what.

Reading your post made me think of this -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXZeq9eXAys

Anyway, I have sneaking suspicion that you and Neville Chamberlain would have gotten along famously.
Well you got me wrong, I get my inspiration from Dwight D. Eisenhower and Theodore Roosevelt Jr.

“Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.”

Dwight D. Eisenhower
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Old 06-19-2020, 09:13 PM   #120
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I was called out about my service. What do you expect, Tbone?


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You weren't called out about your service. You were thanked for your service. No need to be defensive.
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Old 06-19-2020, 10:04 PM   #121
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So now I guess you're a psychopath if you have a differing view on this this issue. Seems reasonable to me. Does this apply to other far left causes, such as not believing that climate change is an existential threat, or that boys dressed as girls can compete (and win) against girls, or that abortion is not murder? If so, then half the country's population are psychopaths by your and the author's definition.

For the record, within my circle of friends, none and I mean none of us believe in this nonsense. You should know in fact there is a silent majority who are fed up and on the verge of rebellion. The day is coming (November 3rd) when this will be evident. We are sick and tired of overreaction to Chinese coronavirus and rioting and looting and all the other divisive nonsense.

I am mildly amused by my statement "within my circle of friends." I have a vision of Pauline Kael who famously stated "Nobody I Know Voted For Nixon!" But you get the point, I hope.
Major you are so obsessed it is frighting. I feel for you and others around you. Your obsession has taken on a whole different meaning. Meanwhile my friends and family who are in Florida are petrified. The surge in that state has broken records day after day. These are people that require hospital care. This so happened right after the governor said go have fun and enjoy your liberty. How do you explain this real threat to many people? This is not testing. It is way beyond testing. These people are in hospitals trying to save their lives by many front line medical staff. Do you or have you talked to anyone that are on the front lines trying to save these people lives? I have!! I think you would have a better understanding what really is happening. What is your justification for this surge in hospitals that are being overrun with Covid 19 people who are fighting for their lives. OUT!!
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Old 06-19-2020, 10:30 PM   #122
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Surge in hospitals? Spoke to a friend who works at Lahey in Burlington. Few cases, nothing they can’t handle. And can you name one hospital in the USA that is currently overwhelmed due to this surge you are telling us about? Can’t. Please stop being a fear monger. Does no good. Here in the lakes region we are all doing well. Time to allow everyone to get back to normal.


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Old 06-20-2020, 04:08 AM   #123
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It is obvious who is obsessed here and it is not Major. I feel for those who are and hope you can find some compassion in your life for those that disagree with you although I realize that is difficult for most on the left. Don't be frightened, take care of yourselves in whatever manner you think is appropriate and do not worry what others feel, think, or do, it is not healthy to continue to go through life angry. IN!!
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Old 06-20-2020, 06:21 AM   #124
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Man, has this thread exposed the true colors of some people. Major has consistently expressed his opinions and positions of subjects related to the Chinese Virus without personal attacks on any other member of this forum. But, not surprisingly, those that disagree (most likely from the left), have to resort to name calling, personal attacks, condescending statements, and other responses right out of the leftist playbook. You should all be ashamed to personally attack a man that has obviously served his country with high honors: a man who obviously loves his country and is disturbed by the erosion of the very foundation and principles on which this country was founded. Have some damn respect for others that don’t share your opinions, and choose to live their lives in accordance with the fundamental rights afforded to them by the Constitution of the United States of America.

Major, thank you for your service, and thank you for having the guts to tell it like it is. I, for one, appreciate both. And don’t worry, we have your six!

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Old 06-20-2020, 07:01 AM   #125
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Join Date: May 2013
Location: Laconia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVoiceOfReason View Post
I hope you were more accepting of your fellow comrades in the Army who came from all walks of life and all had different world views, assuming you are indeed retired military. If so, thank you for your service.

I apologize if I misunderstood your statement “assuming you are indeed retired military.” I took this the mean that you were questioning whether I served. My apologies.


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