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Old 09-20-2020, 08:47 AM   #1
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Default Heating

Almost time to turn the heat on.
How much is your heating bill per month?
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Old 09-20-2020, 09:15 AM   #2
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Thermostat Chicken has begun. Hoping to get to Halloween this year!

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Old 09-20-2020, 04:55 PM   #3
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Did turn on the mini spilt heat. Will use that with a few wood fires till mid October

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Old 09-20-2020, 05:13 PM   #4
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Keeping the house at 68į at night per wife’s request...seems just right for our old bones... was below freezing here last night!
That said, we’re waiting on the delivery and installation of a new propane stove/heater which we will use to warm up our living area in the evenings.
I knew an old codger that wouldn’t turn his heat on until Thanksgiving Day...despite his family’s pleadings...not my style.
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Old 09-20-2020, 06:10 PM   #5
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If oil stays below $2 a gallon it will be cheaper than burning wood.

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Old 09-20-2020, 06:30 PM   #6
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If oil stays below $2 a gallon it will be cheaper than burning wood.

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Not if you're a scrounger! I've not paid for my 1-2 cord/yr. since I started burning in '07. Gotta hustle and process, though.

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Old 09-20-2020, 08:11 PM   #7
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I pay nothing for all fuel (both houses, both cars).

With the Solar program I'm on I pay nothing for electricity, that includes two EV cars (one has free supercharging). The state pays me about $2000/year for generating my own electricity which more than covers the gas bill in Mass and the Oil and Electric bill in NH.

Now that wasn't exactly all free, I paid mega bucks for the Solar System. But I will break even at bout 6 years in, and it's profitable for 4 more years after that. I'm currently 4 years in.
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Old 09-20-2020, 08:15 PM   #8
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I pay nothing for all fuel (both houses, both cars).

With the Solar program I'm on I pay nothing for electricity, that includes two EV cars (one has free supercharging). The state pays me about $2000/year for generating my own electricity which more than covers the gas bill in Mass and the Oil and Electric bill in NH.

Now that wasn't exactly all free, I paid mega bucks for the Solar System. But I will break even at bout 6 years in, and it's profitable for 4 more years after that. I'm currently 4 years in.
A good example of how it takes money to make money.

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Old 09-20-2020, 09:48 PM   #9
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A good example of how it takes money to make money.

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I forgot to mention about 4 years ago I was spending about $7000/yr for all energy.
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Old 09-21-2020, 07:33 AM   #10
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Default Natural Gas

Nice feature about living on Winnisquam in Laconia. Condensing boiler, on demand hot water, gas stove and fire pit. Heating a 2500 sq ft home, the bill was never more than $130 on the coldest month! I use to pay more than that in wood!
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Old 09-21-2020, 08:21 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by mswlogo View Post
I pay nothing for all fuel (both houses, both cars).

With the Solar program I'm on I pay nothing for electricity, that includes two EV cars (one has free supercharging). The state pays me about $2000/year for generating my own electricity which more than covers the gas bill in Mass and the Oil and Electric bill in NH.

Now that wasn't exactly all free, I paid mega bucks for the Solar System. But I will break even at bout 6 years in, and it's profitable for 4 more years after that. I'm currently 4 years in.
Nice! But I think you mean profitable for 14 years (or more) after the 6 to pay off the system.

Think--many solar installers can help you with financing so that you have zero out of pocket expense
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Old 09-21-2020, 09:08 AM   #12
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Nice! But I think you mean profitable for 14 years (or more) after the 6 to pay off the system.

Think--many solar installers can help you with financing so that you have zero out of pocket expense
The promotion that I get paid for making electricity is “only” for 10 years. So after that expires, it’s still no cost for electricity but I don’t make money. That program just speed up the ROI. So first 6 years I’m behind (because I paid for it). Next 4 It’s paid for and they continue to pay me. Then next 10 is paid for but I don’t get paid.

I agree about financing options. There are leasing options too that basically you pay nothing out of pocket. But you pay the solar company for the electricity on your own roof. But at an attractive rate. A friend did that and it’s worked out great for him. After 20 years he may have paid less than I did in total.

I did it more to be green than to save money. So great a feeling generating your own electricity. I had no intention of buying an EV when I installed it. Luckily I over sized the system a bit.

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Old 09-21-2020, 09:45 AM   #13
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The promotion that I get paid for making electricity is ďonlyĒ for 10 years. So after that expires, itís still no cost for electricity but I donít make money. That program just speed up the ROI. So first 6 years Iím behind (because I paid for it). Next 4 Itís paid for and they continue to pay me. Then next 10 is paid for but I donít get paid.

I agree about financing options. There are leasing options too that basically you pay nothing out if pocket. But you pay the solar company for the electricity on your own roof. But at an attractive rate. A friend did that and itís worked out great for him. After 20 years he may have paid less than I did in total.

I did it more to be green than to save money. So great a feeling generating your own electricity. I had no intention of buying an EV when I installed it. Luckily I over sized the system a bit.
I'm with you. I also have solar and I think of the electric savings as Eversource paying me for 20 years. Just semantic confusion. Cheers
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Old 09-21-2020, 03:39 PM   #14
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Default Rymes

Rymes recently sent out the yearly "pay first" offer- $2.09/gal.- 20% of estimated annual usage upfront (min.700 gal.)- then pay for each delivery (I'm on automatic delivery).

Based on this thread discussion, what would you do?

I'm waiting for paperwork to arrive.
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Old 09-21-2020, 04:04 PM   #15
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Rymes recently sent out the yearly "pay first" offer- $2.09/gal.- 20% of estimated annual usage upfront (min.700 gal.)- then pay for each delivery (I'm on automatic delivery).

Based on this thread discussion, what would you do?

I'm waiting for paperwork to arrive.
It’s kind of late but the best option is always to become a member of one of the local buying groups. I’m paying 1.49 from Rhymes. But since you probably do not have many choices I would probably go with the 2.09

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Old 09-21-2020, 04:24 PM   #16
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Would it be fair to say that you buy in bulk- as in much more tan I do as mister homeowner?
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Old 09-21-2020, 04:28 PM   #17
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Itís kind of late but the best option is always to become a member of one of the local buying groups. Iím paying 1.49 from Rhymes. But since you probably do not have many choices I would probably go with the 2.09


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$ 1.49 Gallon. Oil or Propane ?
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Old 09-21-2020, 06:20 PM   #18
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$ 1.49 Gallon. Oil or Propane ?
Propane


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Old 09-22-2020, 07:14 AM   #19
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That is a great price.
How does one join this buying group?
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Old 09-22-2020, 08:49 AM   #20
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That is a great price.

How does one join this buying group?
Unfortunately ours is just for the HOA but there are others in the area but it might be too late to sign up for this season. We signed up with out locked in price back in May or June


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Old 09-22-2020, 11:21 AM   #21
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Quote:
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That is a great price.
How does one join this buying group?
Some of it depends on your location. Try "Our Town Energy Alliance" at https://www.otchoice.com/. There are others.
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Old 09-22-2020, 12:12 PM   #22
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Thank you all.
I will have to mention this to the management company.
I am sure it is too late for this year, maybe next winter.
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Old 09-22-2020, 01:15 PM   #23
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Propane


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Yeah- I forgot to mention that I was talking oil!
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:09 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by mswlogo View Post
The promotion that I get paid for making electricity is ďonlyĒ for 10 years. So after that expires, itís still no cost for electricity but I donít make money. That program just speed up the ROI. So first 6 years Iím behind (because I paid for it). Next 4 Itís paid for and they continue to pay me. Then next 10 is paid for but I donít get paid.

I agree about financing options. There are leasing options too that basically you pay nothing out of pocket. But you pay the solar company for the electricity on your own roof. But at an attractive rate. A friend did that and itís worked out great for him. After 20 years he may have paid less than I did in total.

I did it more to be green than to save money. So great a feeling generating your own electricity. I had no intention of buying an EV when I installed it. Luckily I over sized the system a bit.
Couple things to keep in mind here. Costs aside as I believe alternative energy while great is still not cost effective.... yet.

Many solar systems do not come with self contained storage... in other words you are generating electricity and "storing it" on the grid. The idea here is that you're dumping more energy on the grid during the day while generating electricity and pulling energy off the grid during the night. This is not carbon neutral. As you generate excess power and that goes on the grid others are consuming it. Obviously you are getting credited for that but when you draw after hours you're getting that energy from where ever the power company gets if from which may not be "eco friendly". It should also be noted that the grid itself, manufacture, maintenance and so forth all have a carbon footprint as well. Also power companies are aware of the adoption of solar and are becoming stingy on how much credit you get for excess power generated.

Now if you are self contained and not hooked into the grid instead using a battery array to store energy, or in the case of an EV running off battery, the big thing that is overlooked is the carbon footprint that is created in the manufacture of the vehicle itself and in both cases the manufacture\handling\recycling\disposal of the batteries. This measurable impact is not completely settled in that there are a lot of studies out there that have looked at this and tried to put a figure on this. However many of them are sponsored by and conducted by those that have an agenda either to show a major reduction in footprint or attempting to show the batteries in particular are a ecological disaster. I'd venture a guess the truth lies somewhere in the middle where they are not as carbon neutral as one would hope, it's a fact they contain hazardous materials, do need to be changed out periodically and contain materials that are not recyclable thus there is an impact just one that is not necessarily in the face of the general public.

In the end - alternative energy, solar, wind etc.. will continue to advance as it's overall benefits are clear. At the same time technology is also advancing in the efforts to continue to make burning fossil fuels much cleaner as well. While some companies like amazon are out advertising their commitment to be carbon neutral by X date and have zero emissions, that is complete BS because they don't mention the whole story in that manufacturing all that stuff has a measurable foot print as well as the maintenance and long term operations will as well. It is dishonest to say zero emissions as it is simply not possible. Shifting the visibility of where those emissions are generated doesn't change fact they are not as "green" as one would think.
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:19 AM   #25
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Aside from being green, renewables keep us from being fossel fuel dependent. So any alternative energy is competion for the oil companies and oil producing countries. Less reliance on oil is a good thing. Competition keeps costs in check.
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Couple things to keep in mind here. Costs aside as I believe alternative energy while great is still not cost effective.... yet.

Many solar systems do not come with self contained storage... in other words you are generating electricity and "storing it" on the grid. The idea here is that you're dumping more energy on the grid during the day while generating electricity and pulling energy off the grid during the night. This is not carbon neutral. As you generate excess power and that goes on the grid others are consuming it. Obviously you are getting credited for that but when you draw after hours you're getting that energy from where ever the power company gets if from which may not be "eco friendly". It should also be noted that the grid itself, manufacture, maintenance and so forth all have a carbon footprint as well. Also power companies are aware of the adoption of solar and are becoming stingy on how much credit you get for excess power generated.

Now if you are self contained and not hooked into the grid instead using a battery array to store energy, or in the case of an EV running off battery, the big thing that is overlooked is the carbon footprint that is created in the manufacture of the vehicle itself and in both cases the manufacture\handling\recycling\disposal of the batteries. This measurable impact is not completely settled in that there are a lot of studies out there that have looked at this and tried to put a figure on this. However many of them are sponsored by and conducted by those that have an agenda either to show a major reduction in footprint or attempting to show the batteries in particular are a ecological disaster. I'd venture a guess the truth lies somewhere in the middle where they are not as carbon neutral as one would hope, it's a fact they contain hazardous materials, do need to be changed out periodically and contain materials that are not recyclable thus there is an impact just one that is not necessarily in the face of the general public.

In the end - alternative energy, solar, wind etc.. will continue to advance as it's overall benefits are clear. At the same time technology is also advancing in the efforts to continue to make burning fossil fuels much cleaner as well. While some companies like amazon are out advertising their commitment to be carbon neutral by X date and have zero emissions, that is complete BS because they don't mention the whole story in that manufacturing all that stuff has a measurable foot print as well as the maintenance and long term operations will as well. It is dishonest to say zero emissions as it is simply not possible. Shifting the visibility of where those emissions are generated doesn't change fact they are not as "green" as one would think.
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:46 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by MAXUM View Post
Couple things to keep in mind here. Costs aside as I believe alternative energy while great is still not cost effective.... yet.

Many solar systems do not come with self contained storage... in other words you are generating electricity and "storing it" on the grid. The idea here is that you're dumping more energy on the grid during the day while generating electricity and pulling energy off the grid during the night. This is not carbon neutral. As you generate excess power and that goes on the grid others are consuming it. Obviously you are getting credited for that but when you draw after hours you're getting that energy from where ever the power company gets if from which may not be "eco friendly". It should also be noted that the grid itself, manufacture, maintenance and so forth all have a carbon footprint as well. Also power companies are aware of the adoption of solar and are becoming stingy on how much credit you get for excess power generated.

Now if you are self contained and not hooked into the grid instead using a battery array to store energy, or in the case of an EV running off battery, the big thing that is overlooked is the carbon footprint that is created in the manufacture of the vehicle itself and in both cases the manufacture\handling\recycling\disposal of the batteries. This measurable impact is not completely settled in that there are a lot of studies out there that have looked at this and tried to put a figure on this. However many of them are sponsored by and conducted by those that have an agenda either to show a major reduction in footprint or attempting to show the batteries in particular are a ecological disaster. I'd venture a guess the truth lies somewhere in the middle where they are not as carbon neutral as one would hope, it's a fact they contain hazardous materials, do need to be changed out periodically and contain materials that are not recyclable thus there is an impact just one that is not necessarily in the face of the general public.

In the end - alternative energy, solar, wind etc.. will continue to advance as it's overall benefits are clear. At the same time technology is also advancing in the efforts to continue to make burning fossil fuels much cleaner as well. While some companies like amazon are out advertising their commitment to be carbon neutral by X date and have zero emissions, that is complete BS because they don't mention the whole story in that manufacturing all that stuff has a measurable foot print as well as the maintenance and long term operations will as well. It is dishonest to say zero emissions as it is simply not possible. Shifting the visibility of where those emissions are generated doesn't change fact they are not as "green" as one would think.
Very misleading. This is similar to the partially true technical pieces that fossil fuel companies put out to slow down adoption of better technologies.

On cost effectiveness--the solar panels on my roof are generating a return on investment of over 15% per year (IRR) on an after tax basis with very low risk. Much better than "cost effective"-- I'd say it's more like the best investment a typical homeowner can make.

When a solar system sends energy back to the grid through net metering--It's true that other consumers are using it, as you say. What you left out is that the solar energy you send into the grid is displacing fossil fuels that would need to be used to create that power if your panels did not exist. So you are reducing our collective carbon footprint the entire time the sun is shining. The electric companies have sophisticated load managing systems to achieve this. There is no need to buy batteries, unless you'd like to use them in lieu of a generator.

While it's true that EVs are not zero emissions (except if you power them with solar panels from your roof, haha) and it's true that there are emissions during manufacturing; it is also true that every objective study of EVs shows them to be much more environmentally friendly than comparable traditional cars. As you point out, there are studies that question this--those studies are typically from Big Oil.

We should not demand perfection from things that are terrific advances for both the environment and owners' pocketbooks.
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:58 AM   #27
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I wish we could install solar panels, condo association will have fit if I did that.
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Old 09-28-2020, 02:13 PM   #28
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If oil stays below $2 a gallon it will be cheaper than burning wood.

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Did a pre-buy with Carroll County Oil for $1.79/gallon, so we should be good.
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