Go Back   Winnipesaukee Forum > Winnipesaukee Forums > General Discussion
Home Forums Gallery Blogs YouTube Channel Classifieds Links Calendar Register FAQDonate Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-29-2011, 08:16 AM   #1
B R
Senior Member
 
B R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 140
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Default Should this be a cause for concern?

http://www.boston.com/news/local/new...algae_warning/
__________________
"You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know"
B R is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to B R For This Useful Post:
samosetguy (06-29-2011), SteveA (06-29-2011)
Old 06-29-2011, 09:09 AM   #2
fatlazyless
Senior Member
 
fatlazyless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,387
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 194
Thanked 496 Times in 369 Posts
Thumbs down State Republicans at work!

For the past three summers it was pretty standard to see the bright orange NH-DES signs attached to a wood stake and posted into the sand near the waterline at Weirs beach, every 150' or so. It's been a State of NH practice to test and post the signs so the public will know about the water they are getting into. Closing a public beach is a decision made by the local town. The DES posts the signs, but it is a town's decision if it chooses to close it. I have noticed that while the Town of Waterville Valley decided to close their town beach on Corcoran's Pond last summer, after the DES orange signs went up, and on Lake Winnipesaukee, the City of Laconia decided to no longer charge the ten dollar admission and just let people decide for themselves if they wanted to swim in the Weirs Beach waters posted for e-coli with the orange DES signs.The NH Dept of Environmental Services, locally based directly next to the Lake Winnisquam boat launch, in a closed down waste water treatment plant, would travel around the state and perform swimming area water tests for e-coli and other problems.

Most recently, like within the last month, the super Republican majority that now has the leadership of both the NH state senate and house were reported to be working on new legislation to change the way that the NH Dept of Environmental Service does its job. Pending changes to be made include rewriting the Shoreline Protection Act, and eliminating the DES inspections of local swimming areas like the beach at Weirs Beach.

So, if this law gets passed, then there will be no more swimming water inspections, no orange signs posted into the beach, and presumably because no one knows about it, there will be no more water bacteria problems.

"WARNING - No Lifeguard on Duty - Swim at your own Risk" is what the 3' x 4' town sign at the Lake Waukewan, Town of Meredith, town beach was saying yesterday when I drove past. So, if the state stops doing their water-bacteria inspections and posting orange warning signs, it is a very safe bet that the town sign will not be updated to say "WARNING - No Lifeguard on Duty - Swim at your own Risk - Testing for Bacteria Discontinued!"

But then again, in the interest of public safety, maybe the town will decide to inform the public that "Testing for Bacteria has been Discontinued!" It's the town's decision?
__________________
Down & out, livn that Walmart side of the lake!

Last edited by fatlazyless; 06-29-2011 at 09:31 PM.
fatlazyless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 09:58 AM   #3
jrc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hollis/Gilford
Posts: 2,688
Thanks: 33
Thanked 437 Times in 247 Posts
Default

If it's a town beach and the town is charging $10 a car, shouldn't the town test the water?
jrc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 11:20 AM   #4
fatlazyless
Senior Member
 
fatlazyless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,387
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 194
Thanked 496 Times in 369 Posts
Default

Testing the water has been the job of the NH-DES for some number of years. Possibly they have a test lab over next to the Winnisquam boat launch or maybe they get the water tested somewhere else?

I seem to recall a NH law that any body of water that is 10-acres or larger is usually the property of the State of New Hampshire so that could be one reason.

Another is that water testing for different bacteria is a serious and complex test so it's best to have one state agency responsible for the whole state as opposed to individual towns so the test will be better administrated and performed with higher accuracy and regularity and then have the test results publicly posted without any hesitation, as opposed for example, to a local town that wants to keep it their little secret, at least until after the big holiday weekend or something like that...
__________________
Down & out, livn that Walmart side of the lake!
fatlazyless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 01:48 PM   #5
SIKSUKR
Senior Member
 
SIKSUKR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,070
Thanks: 215
Thanked 895 Times in 506 Posts
Thumbs down Democratic residents at work

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatlazyless View Post
For the past three summers it was pretty standard to see the bright orange NH-DES signs attached to a wood stake and posted into the sand near the waterline at Weirs beach, every 150' or so. It's been a State of NH practice to test and post the signs so the public will know about the water they are getting into. Closing a public beach is a decision made by the local town. The DES posts the signs, but it is a town's decision if it chooses to close it. I have noticed that while the Town of Waterville Valley decided to close their town beach on Corcoran's Pond last summer, after the DES orange signs went up, the City of Laconia decided to no longer charge the ten dollar admission and just let people decide for themselves if they wanted to swim in waters posted for e-coli with the orange DES signs.The NH Dept of Environmental Services, locally based directly next to the Lake Winnisquam boat launch, in a closed down waste water treatment plant, would travel around the state and perform swimming area water tests for e-coli and other problems.

Most recently, like within the last month, the super Republican majority that now has the leadership of both the NH state senate and house were reported to be working on new legislation to change the way that the NH Dept of Environmental Service does its job. Pending changes to be made include rewriting the Shoreline Protection Act, and eliminating the DES inspections of local swimming areas like the beach at Weirs Beach.

So, if this law gets passed, then there will be no more swimming water inspections, no orange signs posted into the beach, and presumably because no one knows about it, there will be no more water bacteria problems.

"WARNING - No Lifeguard on Duty - Swim at your own Risk" is what the 3' x 4' town sign at the Lake Waukewan, Town of Meredith, town beach was saying yesterday when I drove past. So, if the state stops doing their water-bacteria inspections and posting orange warning signs, it is a very safe bet that the town sign will not be updated to say "WARNING - No Lifeguard on Duty - Swim at your own Risk - Testing for Bacteria Discontinued!"

But then again, in the interest of public safety, maybe the town will decide to inform the public that "Testing for Bacteria has been Discontinued!" It's the town's decision?
Given your history of accuracy FLL,I need to see an article about your claim of a change in testing being taken away by Republicans before I buy into this post.Please provide us with a link so I can educate myself.
__________________
SIKSUKR
SIKSUKR is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to SIKSUKR For This Useful Post:
AC2717 (06-29-2011)
Sponsored Links
Old 06-29-2011, 08:34 PM   #6
fatlazyless
Senior Member
 
fatlazyless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,387
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 194
Thanked 496 Times in 369 Posts
Default

http://blog.adamdow.com/154/nh-shore...ry-of-changes/ is a link concerning the Shoreline Protection revision bill, Senate Bill 154, currently in the state legislature and will look for a link concerning the other bill re: DES no longer testing water for bacteria in lakes.

www.e-lobbyist.com/gaits/NH/SB154

This links to the legislative history in 2011 for SB154 which would change and redefine the existing Shoreline Protection Act. Moultonborough State Rep Betsey Patten, Wolfeboro State Senator Jeb Bradley, and Laconia State Senator James Forsythe plus eleven others from all around the state are listed as sponsors. While their party affiliation is not listed, I'm pretty certain that all 14 are.........a little drum roll here.......no surprise....SIKSUKR.......that......they are all Republicans......all 14!
..........

And, this Concord Monitor article, "The Health of State's Lakes, Rivers is at Risk," from April 18, 2011 is probably what I was recalling from memory.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/.../th...ers-is-at-risk

Can not get this link to work but if you take the time to google "Concord Monitor the health of state's lakes rivers is at risk", the Google search should be good.
__________________
Down & out, livn that Walmart side of the lake!

Last edited by fatlazyless; 06-29-2011 at 10:28 PM.
fatlazyless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2011, 05:17 AM   #7
Jonas Pilot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wolfeboro, New Hampshire is my home, 24-7-365
Posts: 1,686
Thanks: 1,047
Thanked 336 Times in 189 Posts
Default This is the link.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/articl...94&CSGroupId=1
Jonas Pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Jonas Pilot For This Useful Post:
fatlazyless (07-07-2011)
Old 07-04-2011, 07:54 AM   #8
fatlazyless
Senior Member
 
fatlazyless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,387
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 194
Thanked 496 Times in 369 Posts
Default From West Bear Island

Saturday's LaDaSun had a real good letter from West Bear Island that decribes very well the necessary weather and temperatures for the green-yellow cyano bacteria to form. Anybody want to post it here? If no one does, then I'll post it later on.

It's live from West Bear Island, the green yellow bacteria that ate Lake Winnipesaukee!
__________________
Down & out, livn that Walmart side of the lake!
fatlazyless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2011, 12:34 PM   #9
SIKSUKR
Senior Member
 
SIKSUKR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,070
Thanks: 215
Thanked 895 Times in 506 Posts
Default Here we go again?

Appreciate you finding those links FLL.I suggest you might want to read the bill as I could find no reference to stopping testing of local swimming areas as you posted.This link I provided shows the Shoreline Protection Act and the text of the bill and clearly shows the proposed changes of text by putting a red line through what they would like to take out and green text for what would be added.I did not read the whole bill but only the text that showed change because you were commenting on the changes.Did I miss something?

http://e-lobbyist.com/gaits/text/333220
__________________
SIKSUKR

Last edited by SIKSUKR; 07-08-2011 at 12:09 PM.
SIKSUKR is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to SIKSUKR For This Useful Post:
Jonas Pilot (07-07-2011), Pineedles (07-07-2011)
Old 07-07-2011, 05:15 PM   #10
fatlazyless
Senior Member
 
fatlazyless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,387
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 194
Thanked 496 Times in 369 Posts
Default

(See Post #7 - Jonas Pilot's link to Concord Monitor) is written by a woman from New Hampton who is one of the volunteer water sample takers and it speaks all about the water testing of New Hampshire lakes and rivers and the DES testing of many public beaches and public swimming pools. While the article does not give a specific legislative bill, it does say how the combined volunteer and professional water test program will be terminated due to it's no longer being funded. Most likely, the recent cyanobacteria outbreak on the west side of Bear Island was examined, tested, and test results made public due directly to the NH-DES water testing program which would get cut or curtailed due to no money for water testing.

It's a very well written newspaper article, authored by someone who is a volunteer water sample taker, who is very familiar with the DES volunteer water testing program. It is very remarkable that the article says that the volunteers have to pay out of their own pocket, in some cases, for the water test lab at Plymouth State University to perform a test on their water sample which they bottled and labeled from one of many different NH lakes or rivers. A big round of applause here for the volunteer water sample takers.

It just figures that those no-good stinky NH Republicans would seriously be thinking about stopping this state wide, volunteer-professional partnership that tests the NH waters. Hopefully, the entire NH Republican leadership team will come down with a good strong case of diarrhea. They deserve it and they would do a very quick about-face on under-funding the state waters testing program!
__________________
Down & out, livn that Walmart side of the lake!

Last edited by fatlazyless; 07-08-2011 at 08:24 AM.
fatlazyless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2011, 05:42 PM   #11
Jonas Pilot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wolfeboro, New Hampshire is my home, 24-7-365
Posts: 1,686
Thanks: 1,047
Thanked 336 Times in 189 Posts
Default

FLL, You had me 'til your last paragraph. I think you need to review the forum rules again.
Jonas Pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2011, 06:27 PM   #12
TiltonBB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Gilford, NH and Florida
Posts: 1,492
Thanks: 228
Thanked 841 Times in 346 Posts
Default On a related note:

Last night I talked to the gentleman that, in previous years, has inspected boat plumbing to be certain that there are holding tanks and no waste is pumped overboard. He has had the part time job on Winnipesaukee for at least 15 years.

His understanding is that there are no funds for the position and he is not working for the state this year.

Maybe we are on the honor system?
TiltonBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2011, 08:28 PM   #13
mg2107
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 169
Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Default

I think that the webmaster should take a look at fatlazyless's post.
mg2107 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2011, 08:30 AM   #14
SAMIAM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Moultonborough
Posts: 2,422
Thanks: 142
Thanked 983 Times in 366 Posts
Default

FLL sneaks in anti-GOP comments any time he thinks he can get away with it. I think there should be something like a 30 day banishment for people that do that.......unless others are allowed to reply.
SAMIAM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2011, 08:48 AM   #15
brk-lnt
Senior Member
 
brk-lnt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Down Shores
Posts: 1,805
Thanks: 481
Thanked 524 Times in 300 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAMIAM View Post
FLL sneaks in anti-GOP comments any time he thinks he can get away with it.I think there should be something like a 30 day banishment for people that do that.......unless others are allowed to reply.
That's why I have him on my ignore list.
__________________
[insert witty phrase here]
brk-lnt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2011, 12:08 PM   #16
Seeker
Senior Member
 
Seeker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Effingham
Posts: 408
Thanks: 37
Thanked 19 Times in 15 Posts
Default

Me too! That list is great.
Seeker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2011, 12:14 PM   #17
SIKSUKR
Senior Member
 
SIKSUKR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,070
Thanks: 215
Thanked 895 Times in 506 Posts
Default Still have not read it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatlazyless View Post
It just figures that those no-good stinky NH Republicans would seriously be thinking about stopping this state wide, volunteer-professional partnership that tests the NH waters. Hopefully, the entire NH Republican leadership team will come down with a good strong case of diarrhea. They deserve it and they would do a very quick about-face on under-funding the state waters testing program!
Again, please point me to where the bill says anything about what your talking about. It seems the only diarhea around here is verbal.
__________________
SIKSUKR
SIKSUKR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2011, 03:17 PM   #18
fatlazyless
Senior Member
 
fatlazyless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,387
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 194
Thanked 496 Times in 369 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SIKSUKR View Post
Again, please point me to where the bill says anything about what your talking about. It seems the only diarhea around here is verbal.
The April 18, 2011 Concord Monitor article (see post #7) "The Health of state's lakes, rivers is at risk" by Jana Hays, a volunteer water sample taker from New Hampton is all about the under-funding and discontinuation of the volunteer-professional NH-DES program that takes water samples and performs water testing for various types of bacteria in NH waters all over the state. This program has been in place for an unknown (to me) number of years and was testing the water in NH's lakes, rivers, public swimming pools and public hot tubs such as at a hotel. Tests were routinely made for e-coli bacteria, cyano bacteria, and other water quality tests such as for phosphates that originate from runoff of fertilized grass lawns.

I'm not sure, but it very well could be that a legislative bill is not needed to under fund or discontinue the water tests as performed by the NH-DES. Possibly, all that's needed is a NO vote from the 5-member, currently all-republican Governor's Executive Council and that would stop the money pay-out needed to conduct the testing process?
__________________
Down & out, livn that Walmart side of the lake!
fatlazyless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2011, 04:24 AM   #19
ApS
Senior Member
 
ApS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Winnipesaukee & Florida
Posts: 4,461
Thanks: 915
Thanked 430 Times in 314 Posts
Angry "Native Species" Requirement—Crossed-OUT...!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SIKSUKR View Post
Appreciate you finding those links FLL.I suggest you might want to read the bill as I could find no reference to stopping testing of local swimming areas as you posted.This link I provided shows the Shoreline Protection Act and the text of the bill and clearly shows the proposed changes of text by putting a red line through what they would like to take out and green text for what would be added. I did not read the whole bill but only the text that showed change because you were commenting on the changes.Did I miss something? http://e-lobbyist.com/gaits/text/333220
In the changes, many are antithetical to a healthier Lake Winnipesaukee.

IMHO.
ApS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2011, 08:57 PM   #20
jrc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hollis/Gilford
Posts: 2,688
Thanks: 33
Thanked 437 Times in 247 Posts
Default

That's because it's impossible to define what is a native species.
jrc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2011, 05:56 AM   #21
Jonas Pilot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wolfeboro, New Hampshire is my home, 24-7-365
Posts: 1,686
Thanks: 1,047
Thanked 336 Times in 189 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrc View Post
That's because it's impossible to define what is a native species.
Are you sure?
Jonas Pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2011, 08:35 AM   #22
jrc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hollis/Gilford
Posts: 2,688
Thanks: 33
Thanked 437 Times in 247 Posts
Default

No, I'm not sure that's why they changed the law.

But if you think about it, what does native species really mean? It easy to identify some recent imports, especially the "bad" ones. But some definitions of native species mean:

"In the U.S., non-native species are typically defined as those that arrived since the time of European contact"

Do you really want the state of NH checking that every shrub, bush and tree you plant was here before Columbus?

Plus there is this little piece of the definition:
"A species can not be considered native to a particular geographic region or habitat in the United States merely because it occurs natively somewhere within the continental United States. ... For example, a California poppy growing in Alabama would be considered a non-native plant."

So again the state would have to decide if maybe your pine tree from Vermont was Ok but those evil Massachusetts pines were non-native.

The goal of the law is to protect the water quality, not to bring historic purity to the plant world.

Source of quotes:
http://definitions.uslegal.com/n/native-species/
jrc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2011, 08:54 AM   #23
Jonas Pilot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wolfeboro, New Hampshire is my home, 24-7-365
Posts: 1,686
Thanks: 1,047
Thanked 336 Times in 189 Posts
Default

So what is happening to our lakes? Non-native aquatic plants are proliferating. These nuisance plants enter our lakes and begin taking over. Most of these non-native species grow faster than our native vegetation, choking it out. Some even grow so thick that boating, swimming, and fishing become more of a struggle than an enjoyment. Non-native plants such as Milfoil and Fanwort are slowly taking over a number of lakes in New Hampshire.

http://www.nhlakes.org/ed_aqu_exo.htm

*One of the goals of the New Hampshire Federation of Garden Clubs is to help educate our citizens about some of the environmental issues which affect the quality of life of each one of us.
NON-NATIVE INVASIVE PLANTS are of great concern now among environmentalists, gardeners, and others, "as they are taking over our wetlands and other areas where native plants have lived for many years. Without the native plants, many species of wildlife will perish." (Virginia Grandpre' in the Stoddard Garden Club's Alien Invaders informational flier.)

http://www.nhfgc.org/invasive.htm

Next to habitat lost to land development and transformation, invasive species pose the greatest threat to
the survival of native biota in the United States, and many other areas of the world. An "invasive species"
is defined as a species that is 1) non-native (or alien) to the ecosystem under consideration and 2) whose
introduction causes or is likely to cause economic or environmental harm or harm to human health.
(Executive Order 13112). Invasive species can be plants, animals, and other organisms (e.g., microbes).
Human actions are the primary means of invasive species introductions.

http://www.nashuarpc.org/LMRLAC/docu...siveplants.pdf


It’s a matter of balancing nature and its habitats. Plants that live peacefully with natural controls in many parts of the world can be aggressive and invasive here. Purple Loosestrife may take over a wetland pushing out native species, leaving little or no room for wildlife to live and breed; Japanese knotweed may uproot a driveway or road; Buckthorn, Burning Bush and Barberry may invade a forest replacing native plants that once were the comfortable native habitat for mammals, amphibians and reptiles; Birds, turtles, deer, mink, and other wildlife that once used wetlands and forests must move on to less desirable habitat where they struggle to exist. Ultimately this change in plant life reduces natural biodiversity.

http://www.plcnh.org/invasivesguide.htm
Jonas Pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2011, 01:18 PM   #24
jrc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hollis/Gilford
Posts: 2,688
Thanks: 33
Thanked 437 Times in 247 Posts
Default

NH has an invasive species law. And a committee that deals with that.

The shoreland law doesn't need to add additional rules. Not all non-native plants are invasive.
jrc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2011, 04:24 AM   #25
ApS
Senior Member
 
ApS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Winnipesaukee & Florida
Posts: 4,461
Thanks: 915
Thanked 430 Times in 314 Posts
Unhappy And Little Can Be Done...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonas Pilot View Post
So what is happening to our lakes? Non-native aquatic plants are proliferating. These nuisance plants enter our lakes and begin taking over. Most of these non-native species grow faster than our native vegetation, choking it out. Some even grow so thick that boating, swimming, and fishing become more of a struggle than an enjoyment. Non-native plants such as Milfoil and Fanwort are slowly taking over a number of lakes in New Hampshire. http://www.nhlakes.org/ed_aqu_exo.htm
The scourge of non-natives I think of, have proliferated just in my lifetime!

Every scourge will just have to "run its course".

>>> Shrug <<<
ApS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2011, 07:18 AM   #26
fatlazyless
Senior Member
 
fatlazyless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,387
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 194
Thanked 496 Times in 369 Posts
Default

Today's July 15 www.citizen.com has a very brief report that three public beaches in Laconia have been closed by the City and NH-DES due to high levels of bacteria. Opechee Cove Beach on Lake Opechee, Bartlett Beach - where the Winnipesaukee River enters Lake Winnisquam, and the beach at Weirs Beach on Lake Winnipesaukee. All three areas are part of, or close to the outflow of Lake Winnipesaukee. It does not say what type of bacteria or have any photos.

So, apparently the NH-DES is still out there testing the waters and posting their orange signs when necessary which is a very good thing. I had been thinking that the waters testing program may have been discontinued for the reason discussed earlier which was elimination of the DES funding.

It's not really clear whether the beaches actually get closed or if the choice to use the beach and water is just left up to individuals with the orange DES signs posted into the sandy beaches at the water's edge to notify the public, which is what has been done in the past?
.............

Say hey.....lookie here....the Citizen article was rewritten since my 8:18am post above and now it says something like 'bacteria warning signs are posted while the beaches remain open and people can decide for themselves about going into the water.'
__________________
Down & out, livn that Walmart side of the lake!

Last edited by fatlazyless; 07-15-2011 at 11:06 AM.
fatlazyless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2011, 12:47 PM   #27
SIKSUKR
Senior Member
 
SIKSUKR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,070
Thanks: 215
Thanked 895 Times in 506 Posts
Default

Oh boy. Sometimes its just not worth the effort.
__________________
SIKSUKR
SIKSUKR is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.

This page was generated in 0.33109 seconds