New to the Lake in Winter

[Webbsatwinni]

Now that we are happy home owners on Rattlesnake, we want to make the most of it. My question is, how do people that live a few hours a way decide when the lake is safe to snowmobile on and what are the main things to look for to judge safe ice?

I know that there are many threads on this subject and I have read most, I was lust looking to validate what I read and get a feel for when the typical (I know this changes year to year) time of year that the ice would be safe enough to travel out by snowmobile.

Now that we closed the house for the year, I can only think of reasons to get back there and how.

Thanks

[islandAl]

1. join local snowmobile club and ask for guidence
2. only travel on well used paths especially while on the lake.
3. stay away from narrows, shallows and places where water maybe flowing under what seems to be ice. Possible places where ice is too thin.
4. Think and plan ahead
a. think about what you will do in unusual circumstances before they happen like you think you may be on thin ice by accident GO FULL throtle out of there (NOT maybe I should slow down and turn around)
b. Have emergncy supplies with you
c. Have told someone at home where you are going and expected return
d. Always ride with others whenever possible
5. Watch the web cams for activity and ice formation

Perhaps someone from your area may volunteer to take you and show you around the first time. Local knowledge of conditions is vital.

Enjoy, it is a great time of year and so totally different from the summer on the lake.

[jeffk]

Welcome to the Winni Winter. It's especially beautiful up here during the winter and generally pretty safe as long as you wear your common sense helmet.

I know the following is a bit repetitious but since we have at least one or two serious accidents or fatalities a year it bears a fresh retelling.

The serious accidents involve these factors, mostly all at the same time.
1. Drunk - simply don't drink and ride
2. Inexperienced - stay on known, marked trails (get a trail map), don't explore alone especially at night, travel with others who know the area
3. Out at night - it's colder, harder to see, less people are around to help. Enjoy it but respect that it adds challenges to the ride.
4. Going too fast for visibility - don't outdrive your headlights, realize that the lake is NOT flat and that ice heaves and plow piles and such can be extremely hard to see (at all times) and very dangerous. If you feel the need for speed cruise the area slowly a few times to check it out.
5. On water - realize the lake is not at all consistent, frozen solid in one place and wide open in others, bubblers and currents can undermine ice. Is you get in trouble, speed is your friend - even keeping you on top of open water if need be. Keep distance between riders so one in trouble doesn't quickly become three in trouble. Consider flotation gear.
6. Crossing roads - cars always win, realize you may panic a car driver into doing something dumb. Give them a wide berth and approach roads slowly.


Signs of the lake ready to ride

Bob houses, usually pulled out by motorized vehicles and the fishermen drill ice holes and know when the ice is thick enough.


Don't rush it, the risk is not worth an extra weeks riding. If need be, trailer around the lake (ex. Castle parking area) and head up into the mountains.

[Webbsatwinni]

Great advice!

I just want to make sure we are safe and the forum is a wealth of knowledge. We will never drink and Sled, period. I do not plan on night sledding this year (new to the lake and snowmobiling, we do not want to add the lack of light in to the mix) and the best advice I have seen is, wait and see and don't be the first out there.

Thanks

[Weirs guy]

Originally Posted by Webbsatwinni

...the best advice I have seen is, wait and see and don't be the first out there.

You beat me to the first and most important rule. You'll really like it up here during the winter!

[trfour]

The nearest club to you would be; http://mountmajorsnowmobileclub.com/

Also, get to know some ice fisherfolks. Very helpful.
Ice load safety chart; http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/ice_fishing_safety.php

Scroll down for the chart, stay safe and welcome to the Lake.

[tis]

I would say on average it will be the end of Jan before the ice freezes on broadside of Rattlesnake. Don't rush it is right!

[ITD]

Bring your long johns, it gets cooooold out there.

[CanisLupusArctos]

A lot of people who fall through could climb back out before they lose too much body heat, but the wet ice is too slippery. Keep sharp objects handy (even a set of car keys can work.. but ice picks are preferred).

You've got to stay calm enough to get out quickly... that means be mentally prepared to fall through. It may help to take a "polar bear swim" on your own terms, so that any accidental winter swim you take won't be your first, and therefore some of the mental shock value will be lessened.

This time of year is perfect for a polar bear swim. There are usually charities that sponsor such events so you could help raise money for a good cause in the process... or at the very least, get yourself on TV with the other swimmers. First ask your doctor if you're in good enough shape to do this - we don't want any heart attacks!

Before you go in the water, have a hot place waiting for you. Have some hot chocolate or hot liquid Jello ready to drink so you can also warm yourself from the inside out.

Plan on being tired for a few hours, or even napping beside the wood stove (which is an amazing feeling after a polar plunge). A cold water swim does that to you. Cater to your immune system for a couple of days in case any germs made headway while your body was diverting all its energy to replace lost heat.... the usual "virus prevention steps" that everyone should take in winter anyway (rest, fluids, etc.)

If you fall through ice, you won't have time to collect your emotions. You'll need to be able to act rationally right away. You'll have only a minute or two before your muscles get too cold to do anything for you, and only slightly longer until your brain starts to cool which will affect your judgment and motor skills (hypothermia is similar to drunkenness.) You've got to make the most of the first minute, while you still have good body heat.

Another idea: Wear a life vest while on the ice. Make sure it can support your body weight plus your winter clothing.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

I remember seeing people keep wooden pegs with nails in the ends in their coat pockets. These can be grabbed and used to pull yourself out onto the slippery wet ice. Is this a legitimate technique? Seems like something you could pass to another person in an emergency. At least they float.

[secondcurve]

I carry grips with steel pegs that are attached by a coil when I go skimobiling. You can find them on line fairly easily. The trick is to keep them handy, while also keeping them out of the way in case you crash (they are sharp).

RG: I strongly recommend you and anyone else who is on the lake in the winter get them. See below:

Ice fishermen or anyone who spends a lot of time on
the ice should always carry ice claws or ice picks. These
pieces of equipment must be attached to your body at all
times so if you fall through the ice you will be able to
reach them quickly. You can purchase these necessary
pieces of equipment from various companies or you can
make them yourself. Simply put, they are a pair of wood
handles with a nail driven into one end sharpened to a
point like an ice pick. Next, attach an eyelet screw or loop
or drill a hole through the handle with a length of strong
rope tying the two handles together. Two sharpened screw-
drivers tied together with a length of strong rope will
work too. If you are a victim of falling through the ice,
use the claws or picks to aid in your rescue. Stab the ice
claws into firm ice, pulling with your arms while scissor
kicking (like swimming) with your legs to get back on
top of the ice.

Drownings happen in a matter of seconds. By you knowing what to
do and by teaching children what to do, their chance of
surviving an accidental falling through the ice increases.
If you think that falling into the icy water is no big
deal, try submerging your bare hands or feet into a bucket
of ice-cold water. If you can last more than a few minutes
without extreme pain, you are tougher than the average
person. The body reacts immediately to the cold and can
start shutting down to conserve energy and heat. Act
promptly and quickly while staying calm and your chances
of survival will increase.

Rescue Procedures
What If You Fall into the Water?
The most important thing is to stay calm and always
look and work your way toward the shore (remember the
weakest ice is in the center of the water body). Call out
for help to others if they are close by. Place your hands
up on the unbroken ice. This is why ice claws or ice picks
are excellent safety devices to carry with you. Try to
swim onto the ice by pulling with your hands and ice
claws, and by kicking your legs. If the ice breaks, keep
trying. Once upon the ice, do not stand up. Distribute
your weight out over a larger area by crawling, sliding,
or rolling toward shore following your tracks made going
out on the ice as you know the ice was safe to the point
where you fell in.

[secondcurve]

Below is the link for ice picks. You can buy them for $5.00. As the add says, is your life worth $5.00?

http://www.peterson-outdoors.com/IceSafetyPicks.htm

[ITD]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Below is the link for ice picks. You can buy them for $5.00. As the add says, is your life worth $5.00?

http://www.peterson-outdoors.com/IceSafetyPicks.htm

I bought these at Wal-mart a few years ago, I don't go on the ice without them. I hang them around my neck OUTSIDE of my coat. They slip into each other so they stay secure and I don't poke myself in the eye.

[VitaBene]

great advice on the pick- thanks all!!

What about lifevests? When I was putting the boat away for teh winter I pulled our life vests out. I realize that wet clothes will likely negate some of the positive bouyancy of the jackets, but would they help at all if worn under a jacket?

[CanisLupusArctos]

The life vests are all rated to hold up a certain weight. Its certificate on the inside should say what it's rated for and what it's designed to do. Weigh all the clothes you'd have on a typical winter day (boots included). I don't think it matters if they're wet or dry because wet stuff doesn't feel heavy until you take it out of the water.

Add the weight of your winter clothing to your body weight. Does your 'fully clothed' weight fall within the weight limit of the life vest?

If not, consider getting a beefier life vest. They make life vests for all kinds of weight because boaters come in all sizes. If you're a 180-pound male wearing 20 pounds of winter clothing, then you'd want to wear the same kind of vest that's USCG-approved for a 200-pound boater (or more).

I don't think it matters if the vest is under your clothing or over it, because it wants to float no matter what. (someone please correct me if this is wrong!). I have found that a decent foam life vest also adds to my torso warmth when I'm out on the ice & exposed to the wind.

Might also be a good idea to securely attach a cord to the life vest that you can throw to someone else to pull you out (or at the very least, hold onto you while waiting for help to arrive.)

[Webbsatwinni]

Thanks to all for the feedback, I now have picks (I bought a set for everyone in the family and spares for anone we travel with that does not have them). Ice in, here we come!

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Originally Posted by CanisLupusArctos

The life vests are all rated to hold up a certain weight. Its certificate on the inside should say what it's rated for and what it's designed to do. Weigh all the clothes you'd have on a typical winter day (boots included). I don't think it matters if they're wet or dry because wet stuff doesn't feel heavy until you take it out of the water.

Add the weight of your winter clothing to your body weight. Does your 'fully clothed' weight fall within the weight limit of the life vest?

If not, consider getting a beefier life vest. They make life vests for all kinds of weight because boaters come in all sizes. If you're a 180-pound male wearing 20 pounds of winter clothing, then you'd want to wear the same kind of vest that's USCG-approved for a 200-pound boater (or more).

I don't think it matters if the vest is under your clothing or over it, because it wants to float no matter what. (someone please correct me if this is wrong!). I have found that a decent foam life vest also adds to my torso warmth when I'm out on the ice & exposed to the wind.

Might also be a good idea to securely attach a cord to the life vest that you can throw to someone else to pull you out (or at the very least, hold onto you while waiting for help to arrive.)

The physics of your assumptions appear sound. Not only do dry things not actually weigh more under water they weigh less by the amount of water they displace. That's why humans with a full set of lungs and reasonable body fat float. They displace more water weight than they weigh on land.

That being said, you want your life vest to keep you as high as possible when the cold water prevents you from being able to draw a breath.

I would love to hear some expert opinions on what to do when you do get out of the water and you are wearing a hundred pounds of wet cleating and it is 5 degrees with a 15 mph wind. What is the strategy that should be on auto pilot.

[Orion]

We generally wear auto-inflatable life vests (suspender type) over our winter clothes when traveling over the lake early and late in the season. They are not bulky and don't interfere with movement so your more likely to use them. Also true for early/late-season boating whenever the water temp is below 55 degrees. The extra cost of these types is well worth it because your more likely to use them.

[islandAl]

RG
The cold wet clothes will transfer heat away faster than even much colder air. So remove the wet clothes. Besides the clothes would probably freeze and become very difficult to move in while still taking heat out of your body.
Hopefully there are others in your party that can offer dry clothes to at least keep the wind off until you can get into a warm place.
Also, very hopefully you are with loved ones, as the fastest way to warm up is skin to skin under covers.
The brains immediate reaction, is to have all muscles contract having your body assume the fetal position. Takes effort to straighten your arms and legs. Reports I have read, stated that you have about 3-4 minutes to get out of 32 degree water or else.

[fatlazyless]

You have probably heard the saying: 'where there's a will, there's a way!

How to give yourself that extra motivation, that extra push-pull as you are hanging there in the icy water trying to claw your way up onto that solid ice and safety. Two times........ three times......... four times......... you try, and each time the ice breaks away and you are back in the icy water........ again. How much longer can you last? Your fingers and hands are so cold they are almost useless and you gather your strength for one more try as you think that this could be the last time....and your mind is dulling up.........duh......

Do like me, just think about your no-good stinky sister who will inherit your wf house, and bingo, your new found energy will plop you, jet-propelled, back to the solid ice and to safety. .......talk about motivat'n motivation..............................ta-da!

[CanisLupusArctos]

Once a person is removed from the ice water, they can be treated like any other land-based hypothermia victim. Common sense rules, which is what emergency medicine is based on.

Move the victim to warm environment. Remove wet clothes, replace with dry clothes and/or blankets. If the victim can speak & swallow, give warm fluids because warming from the inside is always more effective than warming from the outside. If the victim can't speak/swallow, don't give anything orally (choking hazard.)

If warm environment is not nearby, you have to improvise using what you have and what's nearby, and provide clothing or blankets from what you and your group have (just don't put yourselves in danger of hypothermia -- we want fewer victims, not more.) At the very least, get the victim out of the wind.

If the outside of the person's clothing freezes, it may not be a bad thing. By itself, ice is an insulator. That is why in the south, orange growers hose down their oranges before a really cold night. The ice around the orange holds some heat in, and keeps frost from forming on the inside.

The good news is that it takes longer than a few minutes to die of hypothermia unless you're skinny dipping in Antarctica, but after a couple of minutes go by, your brain starts to get cold & act drunk which means you can't do things on your own. If a couple minutes go by and you haven't been able to rescue yourself, you will most likely need other people to rescue you without any help from you.

There is a saying in emergency medicine: "He ain't dead 'til he's WARM and dead." People have been found in late-stage hypothermia with pulse rates of say, 4 beats per minute, and they've survived. They will appear to be dead, but they're really in a state of suspended animation. Cold water drowning victims have a better chance of surviving than warm water drownings, because when the brain gets cold it can go for a much longer period of time without oxygen.

Still, if someone goes through the ice, call 911 immediately unless you're the only one around AND you KNOW you have a very good chance of *safely* rescuing the person yourself. Otherwise, it's best to get the FD rolling and if the victim ends up getting out of the water before they arrive, the victim can always refuse transport to the hospital if he's fine.

It might be a good idea to take a cold-water dip to lessen your mental shock, should you fall through -- as I write this, NewsCenter 6 Portland is advertising a cold-water plunge that will take place on Old Orchard Beach this month. Participants get sponsors, and proceeds benefit Special Olympics.

[Weirs guy]

I've gotta say one of the best things I've ever done to help with the "what if I go through" idea is to take part in the annual Turkey plunge. Sure, the waters 15-20 degrees warmer then when frozen over, but its a great way to experience just HOW COLD THE WATER CAN BE. And how much it hurts when you go in. Not that I think we should all go out and jump in this afternoon, but theres no replacement for experience. This year we incorporated the kids into the plunge, and it will most certainly come up during our annual ice safety talks.

[trfour]

Selfrescue video; http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/educati...selfrescue.wmv

Wear a life vest under your winter gear.
Or wear one of the new flotation snowmobile suits. And it's a good idea to carry a pair of ice picks that may be home made or purchased from most well stocked sporting goods stores that cater to winter anglers. It's amazing how difficult it can be to pull yourself back onto the surface of unbroken but wet and slippery ice while wearing a snowmobile suit weighted down with 60 lbs of water. The ice picks really help pulling yourself back onto solid ice. CAUTION: Do NOT wear a flotation device when traveling across the ice in an enclosed vehicle!

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Thanks for the continuing education credits on this important subject. Much appreciated.

[trfour]

Important hypothermia survival tips, after falling through the ice.

Video; http://www.lake-link.com/icefishing/icesafetyvideo.cfm