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Old 09-21-2021, 06:21 PM   #101
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You keep suggesting that it is a choice to get vaccinated/wear a mask, but not a choice not to interact with those that are not vaccinated/wear a mask.
All parties have the choice.
yes you do have that choice!

I never said that.

You can hide away in some sanitary germ proof place anytime you want, who do you thing is stopping you or suggesting you cannot???

I think based on the numbers you are living this horrible fear over something that does not rise to that level, but it is your choice.

And how long would you stay hidden away? This will never totally go away or not be a threat. List is way too short to live in such fear.

Just think back to the AIDS/HIV "epidemic" this is similar in many ways (socially not medically)

All that hostility and fear and discrimination, all for no good reason,,,

Do you really think that what happened then was reasonable?
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Old 09-21-2021, 06:27 PM   #102
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Simple change the words from unvaccinated and vaccinated to homosexual and straight and hear how you all sound.


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Old 09-21-2021, 06:38 PM   #103
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Because of HIV (though it is not the only blood borne pathogen), we now have specific kits required that business uses to clean up any blood.

So the only way to get HIV at my workplace is to be in the bathroom sharing needles or having unprotected sex. Neither of those are condoned for employees or customers.
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Old 09-21-2021, 06:42 PM   #104
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Simple change the words from unvaccinated and vaccinated to homosexual and straight and hear how you all sound.


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Again, a flawed comparison. One involves a choice, the other does not.

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Old 09-21-2021, 07:36 PM   #105
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Why?
You stated you would discriminate against his business.
Doesn't he get a choice? Or is it only those that make choices that you agree with?
Yes one is called choice the other discrimination, and if you cant tell the difference between choice and discrimination at this point in your life I dont honestly know how you can be taught. But it sure explains a lot and helps me to better understand some of the various threads I have read here.
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Old 09-21-2021, 07:40 PM   #106
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Because of HIV (though it is not the only blood borne pathogen), we now have specific kits required that business uses to clean up any blood.

So the only way to get HIV at my workplace is to be in the bathroom sharing needles or having unprotected sex. Neither of those are condoned for employees or customers.
Thats the understanding today, are you so young you honestly dont remember the fear people harbored and did not even want to be on the same sidewalk with someone who was an HIV/AIDS sufferer?

Its so similar to what I see today.

People who were even suspected of being gay were beat up just for being in public.

It was public fear meltdown.
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Old 09-21-2021, 07:42 PM   #107
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Again, a flawed comparison. One involves a choice, the other does not.

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Actually i think it has many similarities with regard to the discrimination concern.
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Old 09-21-2021, 08:47 PM   #108
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Thats the understanding today, are you so young you honestly dont remember the fear people harbored and did not even want to be on the same sidewalk with someone who was an HIV/AIDS sufferer?

Its so similar to what I see today.

People who were even suspected of being gay were beat up just for being in public.

It was public fear meltdown.
That was in the early unknown, we went through that with Covid also; but now we are well beyond that stage.
I can't get HIV from a toilet seat, and I can't get Covid from a doorknob.
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Old 09-21-2021, 10:30 PM   #109
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That was in the early unknown, we went through that with Covid also; but now we are well beyond that stage.
I can't get HIV from a toilet seat, and I can't get Covid from a doorknob.
Yes, then clearly you do get it.

So then why the tremendous fear of the unvaccinated? Your concerns make even less sense now.

I know you focus a lot on the impact to business, but this cant all just be about money??? Trading such a serious loss of your freedom of choice so that someone can make a few dollars cant be all there is to your concerns.

So am I supposed to read this as you just want the right to tell unvaccinated people to keep out of your business/personal space/something else? Again, that doesnt make sense either.

Sorry I still just dont get the argument you are trying to make.

So again, not sure its really worth either of our time to make the connection that seems impossible to make here.

In the past week in the U.S. ...
New daily reported cases fell 15.7%
Covid-related hospitalizations fell 10.2%
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Old 09-21-2021, 10:33 PM   #110
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Because of HIV (though it is not the only blood borne pathogen), we now have specific kits required that business uses to clean up any blood.

So the only way to get HIV at my workplace is to be in the bathroom sharing needles or having unprotected sex. Neither of those are condoned for employees or customers.
And thats a good thing right?
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Old 09-21-2021, 10:38 PM   #111
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And what kind of business are you in that your customers and co-workers could give you HIV?
I have no idea who this is directed to or why, or even what to do with it.

It seems completely out of left field and a non sequitur.

Clearly this thread has jumped the shark now.
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Old 09-21-2021, 11:20 PM   #112
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I have no idea who this is directed to or why, or even what to do with it.

It seems completely out of left field and a non sequitur.

Clearly this thread has jumped the shark now.
You. I have never been in any industry were I, or anyone that I worked with, while doing their job was at high risk of getting HIV.

I presume you must be in the medical industry or such.

I worked through the 80s in retail and construction before entering manufacturing, and other than when I became a safety officer did I hear or have anything brought to my attention on blood borne pathogens. Never saw or heard of anyone being threatened for being a homosexual - some off the cuff negative remarks from the self-proclaimed conservatives, but no actual physical threats.
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Old 09-21-2021, 11:41 PM   #113
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You. I have never been in any industry were I, or anyone that I worked with, while doing their job was at high risk of getting HIV.

I presume you must be in the medical industry or such.

I worked through the 80s in retail and construction before entering manufacturing, and other than when I became a safety officer did I hear or have anything brought to my attention on blood borne pathogens. Never saw or heard of anyone being threatened for being a homosexual - some off the cuff negative remarks from the self-proclaimed conservatives, but no actual physical threats.
No idea where you got that idea from. Couldnt be more wrong.

I have been very fortunate enough to work in several different fields that got me lots of exposure to a very smart and very diverse group of people over the 40 plus years in the workforce.
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Old 09-21-2021, 11:57 PM   #114
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Yes, then clearly you do get it.

So then why the tremendous fear of the unvaccinated? Your concerns make even less sense now.

I know you focus a lot on the impact to business, but this cant all just be about money??? Trading such a serious loss of your freedom of choice so that someone can make a few dollars cant be all there is to your concerns.

So am I supposed to read this as you just want the right to tell unvaccinated people to keep out of your business/personal space/something else? Again, that doesnt make sense either.

Sorry I still just dont get the argument you are trying to make.

So again, not sure its really worth either of our time to make the connection that seems impossible to make here.

In the past week in the U.S. ...
New daily reported cases fell 15.7%
Covid-related hospitalizations fell 10.2%
You do realize that broad US data doesn't matter. And that if you got HIV tomorrow, you won't need to quarantine and transfer your workload to a co-worker? Or is that concern a ''panic'' in your mind?

We went through this in the winter before the vaccine became available. We quarantined those that caught Covid and needed to be per the rules. The workload on me increased exponentially - I gave my notice. They requested that I stay to train others so they could continue to service customers. That time period is quickly slipping away.

Another outbreak leaves less time to train, as personnel have to be moved to fill the gap. This is why it becomes an issue.

If they get covid, but are fully vaccinate with the two week period, both they and I will need to wear masks. It slows the training, but we don't need to isolate. If they have not been fully vaccinated, they must isolate for 10 days... regardless of symptoms -no training. If another employee must isolate, and a trainee or I must fill the gap... again training stops for 10 days.

When it is this busy, those ''little'' things add up.
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Old 09-22-2021, 02:01 AM   #115
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Well I suppose thats telling that this is what anyone is concerned about.

And when the educated need something repaired and all they can find is uneducated non-vaccinated tradesman I wonder how that will go,,,

With the current trends for everyones kids to go to college and work in offices, I see lots of opportunity for the uneducated non-vaccinated tradesman to make lots of money in the future ;-)

You might have uncovered a true golden nugget.
That was already happening.

Younger generation can’t even change a freaken tire.

And trades people are making a bundle.
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Old 09-22-2021, 06:14 AM   #116
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Let's hope that this convo can be put to bed sooner than later.

NPR reported that the Covid-19 Scenario Modeling Hub, which includes 9 different sources, predicts that with the 5-11 vaccine approval and continued increases in adult vaccinations that we may be on the way back to "normal."

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Old 09-22-2021, 07:09 AM   #117
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You do realize that broad US data doesn't matter. And that if you got HIV tomorrow, you won't need to quarantine and transfer your workload to a co-worker? Or is that concern a ''panic'' in your mind?

We went through this in the winter before the vaccine became available. We quarantined those that caught Covid and needed to be per the rules. The workload on me increased exponentially - I gave my notice. They requested that I stay to train others so they could continue to service customers. That time period is quickly slipping away.

Another outbreak leaves less time to train, as personnel have to be moved to fill the gap. This is why it becomes an issue.

If they get covid, but are fully vaccinate with the two week period, both they and I will need to wear masks. It slows the training, but we don't need to isolate. If they have not been fully vaccinated, they must isolate for 10 days... regardless of symptoms -no training. If another employee must isolate, and a trainee or I must fill the gap... again training stops for 10 days.

When it is this busy, those ''little'' things add up.
I guess to me its neither a concern nor a panic, its just business.

I deal with employee turnover constantly. Retention is very difficult the last few years. COVID has done nothing to significantly change our overall resources available.

I see this as no different than a bad cold and flu year, except that its extended. Peoples responses to all this are far too extreme, no need to stop processes like training unless just adapt them to remote/online activities. Figure out what work can be done from home, its amazing how much work people can do via MS Teams or Zoom. And if they dont have a computer at home, get them one and migrate all your staff to laptops.

So many options to adapt and overcome.

We create our own roadblocks to productivity, when the options sometime end up even better then the situation was before the need to change.
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Old 09-22-2021, 07:12 AM   #118
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That was already happening.

Younger generation can’t even change a freaken tire.

And trades people are making a bundle.
Yes they are, i only wish I were in my 20's again, I would be in plumbing school right now and laughing all the way to the bank.
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Old 09-22-2021, 07:30 AM   #119
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I see this as no different than a bad cold and flu year, except that its extended.
Wow is it ignorance or hubris? More likely you just trolling and we are just feeding you by replying. Count me out.
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Old 09-22-2021, 08:28 AM   #120
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Wow is it ignorance or hubris? More likely you just trolling and we are just feeding you by replying. Count me out.
If you will go back and re-read the message it was regarding the impact of COVID on people being physically in the office to be working or trained, and in my opinion it is no greater impact than I have seen in years when we had lots of people out with colds and flu.

As such it would appear to me yours is either the trolling response, or you just didnt read/understand what was written.

Mine is an honest reply about my observations and experience concerning how to deal with the impact of COVID to your available man hours to be worked. In many instances it is not necessary for every employee to be physically in the building to perform their work, sales is a perfect example. Telework is now a widely accepted method of reducing the impact of the pandemic, and even better yet, it may be a good option for lots of folks even after the pandemic is finally declared over.

Is yours an honest attempt to share experiences and helpful solutions? in any case hostile and closed mined responses will accomplish little for anyone, and as you seem to be working yourself up over the matter and unable to actually read the posts as they are written, maybe you should consider taking a rest from all this, as you suggest ("count me out"). Sometimes its too stressful to discuss such matters, well for some people.

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Old 09-22-2021, 10:00 AM   #121
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Talking ........ third shot .....soooooo easy!

As already mentioned I got my third vaccination shot of Pfizer, on Sunday at the local CVS. It was very easy to get it done. You start at www.cvs.com/immunizations/get-vaccinated ...... answer about ten questions .... get an appointment ...... and get it done ..... paid by your Uncle Sam.

They had many empty time slots available ..... 1pm, 2pm, 3pm, 4pm ..... all available ....... with an appointment I was in and out the door in about 7-minutes or so ...... and I got a covid vaccination in the left arm and a flu vaccination in the right arm ....... then went back to Waterville Valley and swam 24 very long 35-yard laps of breast stroke and side stroke in the cool water www.wmacwv.com 70-degree , huge outdoor swim pool.

Anyone else here get their THIRD Covid vaccination shot, or YOU just thinking about it?

It was soooooo easy to get it done at CVS.
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Old 09-22-2021, 11:52 AM   #122
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Really? So if they have a cold or flu, they have to isolate for 10 days if they are not vaccinated?

I didn't know that you could get a cold vaccine, and I have never seen a rule/regulation that states an unvaccinated employee that gets flu must isolate for 10 days... in fact, I haven't seen one that even requires one day; or for that matter that they even have to wear a mask.

So, yeah, it is different.
Add in the time limit, and it really becomes different.
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Old 09-22-2021, 12:46 PM   #123
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Really? So if they have a cold or flu, they have to isolate for 10 days if they are not vaccinated?

I didn't know that you could get a cold vaccine, and I have never seen a rule/regulation that states an unvaccinated employee that gets flu must isolate for 10 days... in fact, I haven't seen one that even requires one day; or for that matter that they even have to wear a mask.

So, yeah, it is different.
Add in the time limit, and it really becomes different.
No actually colds and flu in the workplace can be far worse, as employees either feel bad enough to take leave (the lost work hours you seem most concerned about), or they come to work and sneeze and blow they noses and actually spread germs unlike most COVID infected employees who will either will be in isolation at home, but fully capable of teleworking, or they will be out and about but in the vast majority of cases not spreading anything as they are not coughing or sneezing.

We actually had an employee document that he had doubled his productivity while teleworking due to the lack of distractions in the facility. And this was an employee who did not want to telework. Call it one of the better lessons learned as a result of COVID.

Hope this is helpful to your place of work.

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Old 09-22-2021, 02:16 PM   #124
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If you think so.
But in approximately six months... reality hits.
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Old 09-22-2021, 05:20 PM   #125
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If you think so.
But in approximately six months... reality hits.
Your crystal ball is better than mine, what event is happening in 6 months that changes anything?

I hope its something good like I hit the lottery, and if so please pass along the numbers I need to play and on what date and game. I promise I will buy you a pallet of non-chinese masks once I hit!
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Old 09-22-2021, 06:17 PM   #126
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Default I see this as no different than a bad cold and flu year, except that its extended.

"I see this as no different than a bad cold and flu year, except that its extended. You used those words to marginalize Covid and compare it to bad cold year? Covid has now killed more than the 1918 flu pandemic and Covid is far from done with us. Why? Because there are morons who “think” vaccinations are somehow harmful and that masks are not part of the solution.

I understand that you and your sycophants all spew the same verisimilitudes. I do not know if you have an agenda or are simply unable to look at the facts and rationally process the information. What I do know is that people like you have exacerbated the pandemic and for that, you should feel shame…but I know you cannot really comprehend your role in extending the pandemic.
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Old 09-22-2021, 06:58 PM   #127
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Your crystal ball is better than mine, what event is happening in 6 months that changes anything?

I hope its something good like I hit the lottery, and if so please pass along the numbers I need to play and on what date and game. I promise I will buy you a pallet of non-chinese masks once I hit!
I switch jobs. The untrained are the untrained.
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Old 09-22-2021, 07:13 PM   #128
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"I see this as no different than a bad cold and flu year, except that its extended. You used those words to marginalize Covid and compare it to bad cold year? Covid has now killed more than the 1918 flu pandemic and Covid is far from done with us. Why? Because there are morons who “think” vaccinations are somehow harmful and that masks are not part of the solution.

I understand that you and your sycophants all spew the same verisimilitudes. I do not know if you have an agenda or are simply unable to look at the facts and rationally process the information. What I do know is that people like you have exacerbated the pandemic and for that, you should feel shame…but I know you cannot really comprehend your role in extending the pandemic.
They aren't extending it, we are. We make excuses for them.
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Old 09-22-2021, 08:24 PM   #129
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I think that is a wholly unnecessary tragedy, and personally I probably would not apply somewhere like that nor would choose to shop there unless there are literally no other options (assuming its a retail business), but thats your choice.

I feel certain that the tragedy of the intentional fear mongering that you have been subjected to and that produces decisions like this will not fully understood for years.

Its like reliving the AIDS/HIV crisis all over again, and maybe worse as we should have learned that lesson. Its so disheartening to see this again. Maybe its just human nature to harbor such fear and practice such discrimination,,,
We would never discriminate against a person with HIV. As John pointed out, HIV does not present risk to other employees. (you seem to be a few decades behind here)

About 90% of our team loved the vaccine requirement immediately. The rest got on board a week later. We're a science-based company, so people follow the data and recognize that they will be a safer at work and the company will be at less risk of a covid-related shut down. Overall, a morale-booster for us
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Old 09-22-2021, 08:31 PM   #130
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Today you wouldn’t discriminate against a person with HIV. But, I am positive you would have back in the day. We must all remember the fear and anger that was being thrown around. Magic Johnson was forced to retire from the NBA due to fear. With what we know today, he should have been allowed to continue playing without fear. When this virus passes many of you will regret the choices you have made and the time with family and friends have have lost


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Old 09-22-2021, 09:17 PM   #131
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Today you wouldn’t discriminate against a person with HIV. But, I am positive you would have back in the day. We must all remember the fear and anger that was being thrown around. Magic Johnson was forced to retire from the NBA due to fear. With what we know today, he should have been allowed to continue playing without fear. When this virus passes many of you will regret the choices you have made and the time with family and friends have have lost


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Please do not judge without information. When I said never, I meant never.

In the 1990s, coincidentally while Magic was struggling to stay active, I had an excellent VP and friend at work who died of AIDS. We did not discriminate against him, but did everything we could to make sure he felt welcomed and supported. We named an addition to our building for him after he passed.
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Old 09-22-2021, 10:08 PM   #132
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We're a science-based company, so people follow the data and recognize that they will be a safer at work and the company will be at less risk of a covid-related shut down.
For a number of reasons I cannot disclose where I work, but my organization is a pioneer that has created the science and generated the safety data that impacts literally millions of people every day, and our science and data and most importantly our guidance is literally used all over the world.

I am blessed to be surrounded by people solving problems at all corners of the planet and working with governments in countless countries.

Since the beginning of this mess I have constantly been inundated with coworkers concerned about this matter with varying perspectives.

Most interesting to me is the number of people who have recently come forward to say "I am vaccinated, but do not want to share my medical status with anyone, its no ones business". And also the people who are saying "I have reviewed this matter and I am convinced I dont want the vaccine at this time, its not the right choice for me".

And these folks are as educated and experienced as anyone in their field.

I was most impressed to recently be at a military base when a high raking official asked my coworker if another person we work with was still the expert on a particular matter they were experiencing. For a moment I was genuinely awestruck.

Clearly this is a very polarizing matter, and after countless months of seeing the impact and personally suffering both the virus and its continuing lingering effects, which may well force me into early retirement, I am of a mind that we still need to respect individual choice above all else. Even given the state of COVID in the US. I cannot in good faith support mandatory/forced vaccination, and disparate treatment of people who choose not to be vaccinated. I do not fear anyone that is unvaccinated.

Like at any time before COVID I do try to avoid anyone who is clearly sick, but thats just common sense. But avoiding the unvaccinated simply because they are unvaccinated and based on what we now know seems, well to be frank, ignorant. Much like the ignorance we saw with HIV/AIDS, Autism, Downs and so many other matters over the years. Hopefully in time this will all come to pass.

Sorry if your opinion is different, I guess thats just life.
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Old 09-22-2021, 10:29 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by XCR-700 View Post

Most interesting to me is the number of people who have recently come forward to say "I am vaccinated, but do not want to share my medical status with anyone, its no ones business". And also the people who are saying "I have reviewed this matter and I am convinced I dont want the vaccine at this time, its not the right choice for me".
Of course, all of theses people have already shared their status on numerous other vaccines numerous times since they were kids--without complaint. Perhaps some even appreciated free flu shots at work.

But that was before politics interfered....
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Old 09-22-2021, 11:18 PM   #134
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Of course, all of theses people have already shared their status on numerous other vaccines numerous times since they were kids--without complaint. Perhaps some even appreciated free flu shots at work.

But that was before politics interfered....
Well actually no, their medical data was shared without their consent by their parents in order to get them into public schools, certainly not by choice or voluntarily.

Personally I have not been asked for any vaccination record in my entire adult life.

As for free flu shots, some yes, some never. Oh and remember NOTHING is free, you pay one way or another.

And speaking of paying,,, I was surprised to see "some" of the numbers regarding the cost of the COVID vaccine development, which it is almost incalculable to get the actual total cost of the entire effort. Literally. The actual total cost is not ever going to be available to the public due to how it was created.

But if you could calculate the cost of each life it potentially saved, most could not afford the bill.

Hopefully that changes in the future as well.
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Old 09-22-2021, 11:35 PM   #135
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Republicans argued that the medical consent was a parental right.
And yes, the parents could have chosen not to send them to a public school or private school that required vaccination - so there has always been a choice.
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Old 09-23-2021, 08:15 AM   #136
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Republicans argued that the medical consent was a parental right.
And yes, the parents could have chosen not to send them to a public school or private school that required vaccination - so there has always been a choice.
I dont personally care if the pope argued it, I am a very independent voter and not aligned with any party because that all have serious problems in my opinion.

As for that being a choice, well not for the people it impacted. Once we become adults we dont get the data back. And before PII laws that data was too often shared very freely.
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Old 09-23-2021, 11:03 AM   #137
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I am of a mind that we still need to respect individual choice above all else.
Why do you hold this opinion?

In saying that you prioritize individual choice above all else, you're saying that your personal freedom is more important than anything else.

And yet, there are thousands of ways that you do not have personal freedom because you've chosen to live in human society, rather than out in the woods or on an island, far from people and having zero need for others. There are thousands of limitations on your freedom, and clearly you accept these limits because you want the benefits of living in human society.

Thus your statement that "we still need to respect individual choice above all else" is incongruous with the way you actually live your life. If you really prioritized your freedom above all else, you would be living in a place where there were no limits on your freedom. Such places do exist, but you don't choose to live there because in fact you have other priorities that are greater than your desire for freedom!

One of the limits on freedom if you choose to live in society is that you can't do things that harm or could harm other people, like walking around unvaccinated or without a mask. Why? Because other people's right to live and to not become gravely ill because of you is saccrosanct.

It is possible to weigh one person's needs against another's and to decide which needs carry greater weight. (Courts do this all the time.) One person's need to stay alive and not become gravely ill does indeed outweigh another person's desire to walk around unvaccinated and unmasked. You cannot rationally deny the magnitude of 670,000 Covid deaths in the US. That outcome and preventing more unnecessary deaths vastly outweighs individual desire to not get vaccinated or wear a mask.

Individual freedom can never be absolute. If we were all 100% free all the time, social chaos would result. Social maturity means accepting limits on personal freedom, especially the prohibition on harming others.

The saddest thing about your belief that personal freedom is more important than anything else is that it lets you have the benefits of living in society but it doesn't protect society---the people who provide you with those benefits---from your harmful choices. That's just selfish, and socially immature.

You need me. (My taxes contribute to the pool of wealth that ensures most of the things you need and enjoy in life.) How does your need for freedom outweigh my need to live?
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Old 09-23-2021, 11:14 AM   #138
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Why do you hold this opinion?

In saying that you prioritize individual choice above all else, you're saying that your personal freedom is more important than anything else.
No you have it totally backwards!

I prioritize the persons right to make decision about medical treatment concerning their body over MY preference to tell them anything they MUST do.

And I believe that is the standard that should apply to all.

I do not understand how I possibly tell you you must stop; smoking, drinking alcohol, must keep your weight under a certain level or even take a vaccine to protect me!

I cannot do that, you are entitled to make your decisions about whats best for you concerning your medical treatment.

Its the same for something like crime and gun control, should I ba able to demand that you carry a gun to protect yourself AND me because we all know the police cannot be everywhere all the time, but violent crime CAN happen anywhere and at any time. And clearly the answer is no, I cannot force you to carry a gun to protect yourself AND me. Its unthinkable, and is a vaccination mandate.

Sorry I dont know how to be more clear than that.

If you disagree so be it. Then will you also be demanding I carry a gun to protect you, because I will also oppose that, and I fully support anyones right to carry as THEY so choose, but not by mandate.

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Old 09-23-2021, 12:07 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by SailinAway View Post
Why do you hold this opinion?

In saying that you prioritize individual choice above all else, you're saying that your personal freedom is more important than anything else.

And yet, there are thousands of ways that you do not have personal freedom because you've chosen to live in human society, rather than out in the woods or on an island, far from people and having zero need for others. There are thousands of limitations on your freedom, and clearly you accept these limits because you want the benefits of living in human society.

Thus your statement that "we still need to respect individual choice above all else" is incongruous with the way you actually live your life. If you really prioritized your freedom above all else, you would be living in a place where there were no limits on your freedom. Such places do exist, but you don't choose to live there because in fact you have other priorities that are greater than your desire for freedom!

One of the limits on freedom if you choose to live in society is that you can't do things that harm or could harm other people, like walking around unvaccinated or without a mask. Why? Because other people's right to live and to not become gravely ill because of you is saccrosanct.

It is possible to weigh one person's needs against another's and to decide which needs carry greater weight. (Courts do this all the time.) One person's need to stay alive and not become gravely ill does indeed outweigh another person's desire to walk around unvaccinated and unmasked. You cannot rationally deny the magnitude of 670,000 Covid deaths in the US. That outcome and preventing more unnecessary deaths vastly outweighs individual desire to not get vaccinated or wear a mask.

Individual freedom can never be absolute. If we were all 100% free all the time, social chaos would result. Social maturity means accepting limits on personal freedom, especially the prohibition on harming others.

The saddest thing about your belief that personal freedom is more important than anything else is that it lets you have the benefits of living in society but it doesn't protect society---the people who provide you with those benefits---from your harmful choices. That's just selfish, and socially immature.

You need me. (My taxes contribute to the pool of wealth that ensures most of the things you need and enjoy in life.) How does your need for freedom outweigh my need to live?
I just took a breath and went back and reread your post to see if I am missing something and I must say no; I actually and honestly fundamentally disagree with you on most of what you are saying WITH REGARD TO MANDATORY VACCINATION.

The lack of personal choices in many other matters are things that need to be discussed on an issue by issue bases, and cannot be lumped together under the umbrella of the universal cannot argue needs of a society. Thats is the text book example of totalitarian rule when you cannot challenge the government or even the common mind position, it is communism.

People come to America and fight for the most basic and fundamental rights known to man, they choice to have medical and religious and other freedoms. Freedoms like the right to access to birth control, the right to access abortion, the right to life and to choose to die with dignity. They do not come to America to be told to stand in line and be forced to get vaccinated, and one look at the current southern border situation will show you we are NOT requiring these immigrants to get the vaccine we are requiring our own citizens to get! How does that work,,,

As for your magnitude issue; first off everyone knows the numbers are a disaster. I have no idea how far off they are, but they are not accurate representations of reasonably healthy people who in fact died from COVID. They may have been infected with COVID when they died, but not all of them actually died because of COVID. ANd that is a VERY important fact. And if we did use your numbers, what percentage of the population would this be??? Maybe .2 or .3 % depending on the numbers you use. Does that genuinely warrant mandatory anything? Not in my world. Not especially when you already had a 60% vaccination rate AND countless % natural immunity.

This is not about me, it is about you and me and the other guy imposing our medical requirements on others. That is NOT acceptable unless you have some far greater apocalyptic event that is raging out of control and there are no other options. Otherwise respect for peoples personal medical choice and freedoms comes above you worrying about having 100% protection, which as you said there is no such thing.

By getting the vaccine and wearing masks AND forcing others to do the same, you believe you will have full protection, when there will always be breakthroughs and mutations and future infections. You cannot stop this, you cannot win, there is no cure. You will only slow the spread.

So when your desire to get yourself maximum protection forces others to do something they are not in agreement with, not comfortable with, and may not be good for them, you are the one who is trumping the other persons rights, not the other way around, You have this twisted backwards.

If you live is such fear, you can remove yourself from this and isolate, but it is not your right to demand others do what you want them to regarding their medical treatment. It is fundamentally wrong.

Clearly we will not come to agreement on this, and I personally lose no sleep over it. I hope you find your peace with all this.
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Old 09-23-2021, 12:12 PM   #140
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That only counts should your medical decision not be able to harm others.

You would need to complete isolate yourself, or provide that the other parties knowing the risk can avoid you.
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Old 09-23-2021, 12:33 PM   #141
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That only counts should your medical decision not be able to harm others.

You would need to complete isolate yourself, or provide that the other parties knowing the risk can avoid you.
Hummm,,, Let me try this another way.

I do not not support ANY requirement that my children's doctors or teachers be required to wear masks or get vaccinated. The choice to wear a mask or get vaccinated should be theirs, as well to not continue teaching or even requesting to be a telework/remote teacher.

Clearly some will come down on the absolute opposite side of this and thus why we have such polarization on this matter.

Sadly it cannot be a civil discussion, and anger and hostility and intolerance than becomes the standard by which we interact on any such controversial matter. Vacant is any measure of respect for a differing opinion. And I make NO claim that I am immune to this distasteful new standard.
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Old 09-23-2021, 02:41 PM   #142
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I didn't state teachers.

You stated that I should not be able to discriminate against the unvaccinated, you suggest that I do not have the right to protect myself against those that may endanger me or my family.

Either we can isolate from others - aka ''discriminate'' - or we cannot.

Teachers are only a small subset of the working population.

If I have the option to only remote work with customers, is that discriminating against customers that have been fully vaccinate/are wearing a mask because they do not have personal interaction that they may prefer?

If I didn't have the option to remote work, do I lose my option to protect myself... and succumb to someone else's choice?

It isn't are complex issue. If you truly believe that each individual has the option not to interact directly... then you have to agree that those that cannot prove vaccination/wear a mask will be discriminated against per the consequences of their own choice.
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Old 09-23-2021, 03:07 PM   #143
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I didn't state teachers.

You stated that I should not be able to discriminate against the unvaccinated, you suggest that I do not have the right to protect myself against those that may endanger me or my family.

Either we can isolate from others - aka ''discriminate'' - or we cannot.

Teachers are only a small subset of the working population.

If I have the option to only remote work with customers, is that discriminating against customers that have been fully vaccinate/are wearing a mask because they do not have personal interaction that they may prefer?

If I didn't have the option to remote work, do I lose my option to protect myself... and succumb to someone else's choice?

It isn't are complex issue. If you truly believe that each individual has the option not to interact directly... then you have to agree that those that cannot prove vaccination/wear a mask will be discriminated against per the consequences of their own choice.
Sorry I have tried reading this several times and to me its totally incoherent and a rambling mish/mash of stuff.

We will simply have to agree to disagree as at this point I have no idea what you are arguing or trying to say.

Sorry,,,
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Old 09-23-2021, 03:11 PM   #144
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It is not a mish/mash.

Your only looking at it from your point of view.

Your point of view is that anyone should have the choice to vaccinate, but no one should have the choice to isolate themselves from those that made the choice not to vaccinate.
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Old 09-23-2021, 03:39 PM   #145
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It is not a mish/mash.

Your only looking at it from your point of view.

Your point of view is that anyone should have the choice to vaccinate, but no one should have the choice to isolate themselves from those that made the choice not to vaccinate.
Again no idea what you are saying, you certainly do have the choice to isolate youself.

With very few exceptions, you are not required to live around people go to any public place talk to or see anyone. Plenty of people are not circulating with the public.

You can build a plastic bubble, wear a space suit, etc.

Sorry this is not making any sense to me,,,
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Old 09-23-2021, 03:57 PM   #146
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Well actually no, their medical data was shared without their consent by their parents in order to get them into public schools, certainly not by choice or voluntarily.
A distinction without a difference. I'm guessing you do not have kids.

Virtually everybody in the US has been sharing vax data for generations. This data is often shared voluntarily for trivial things, such as when parents send their children to summer camp. Maybe none of these people complaining to you have kids or maybe they're just hypocrites?

On the flu vaccines--thousands of employers all over the country give flu vaccines to all employees who would like them. Obviously this creates a semi-public awareness of who is and is not vaxxed at work. Maybe none of these complainers have ever gone to a free pop-up flu clinic?

Neither of these things has ever been a big deal, until people decided to use covid vax as a political issue
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Old 09-23-2021, 04:06 PM   #147
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No you have it totally backwards! I prioritize the persons right to make decision about medical treatment concerning their body over MY preference to tell them anything they MUST do.
You're saying the same thing I said, in different words. You're saying that individual freedoms (the freedom to not get vaccinated) are more important than mandating public health measures for the good of all of society. I strongly disagree.

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People come to America and fight for the most basic and fundamental rights known to man.
The three inalienable rights listed in the Declaration of Independence are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. A person's liberty to carry a lethal disease in his body and expose me to it does not supersede my right to life.

I'm stunned at your minimization of 670,000 deaths to Covid. The nation was traumatized when 3,000 people died on 9/11 but 670,000 deaths is a small number??

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With very few exceptions, you are not required to live around people go to any public place talk to or see anyone. Plenty of people are not circulating with the public.
The basic necessities of life, especially food and medical care, do require going to a public place. I don't go to restaurants, concerts, or other optional places. Again, one person's desire to not get vaccinated does not supersede my right to obtain basic necessities of life.

You're going to answer that I can order groceries to be delivered to my house. My reply is the same: one person's desire to not get vaccinated does not supersede my right to avoid the added expense and risk of someone else choosing my food for me.

For medical care, in-person care is sometimes or often the only option.

What you're not acknowledging is that often people's reasons for wanting to avoid getting vaccinated are trivial or based on pure ignorance. Those unfounded reasons need to be balanced against other people's right to live and to have a normal life, like being able to go to the grocery story and doctor.
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Old 09-23-2021, 04:15 PM   #148
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A distinction without a difference. I'm guessing you do not have kids.

Virtually everybody in the US has been sharing vax data for generations. This data is often shared voluntarily for trivial things, such as when parents send their children to summer camp. Maybe none of these people complaining to you have kids or maybe they're just hypocrites?

On the flu vaccines--thousands of employers all over the country give flu vaccines to all employees who would like them. Obviously this creates a semi-public awareness of who is and is not vaxxed at work. Maybe none of these complainers have ever gone to a free pop-up flu clinic?

Neither of these things has ever been a big deal, until people decided to use covid vax as a political issue
I actually have 2 school age kids and I do not support any vaccination mandate or mask requirements for their teachers or school staff or doctors or anyone else they com into contact with. My kids are vaccinated and we are not concerned about anyone else infecting them.

As for the people at work raising the most concern about the mandates, most do have children, not 100%, but most.

They just have seen the wrong side of government control and do not support medical mandates.

Not sure what more to say except that highly educated and experienced and reasonable people do not support medical mandates. Why is that so hard to believe, because it is not your preference.

You can disagree with them, no problem, but why the hostile responses,,, Its troubling to see such volatile responses to differing opinions and such a strong desire to force your preferences on others about what they must do with their bodies.

Its kinda frighting to see people demanding other people take medications they are not comfortable with.
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Old 09-23-2021, 04:26 PM   #149
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So everyone that does except medical mandates is not highly educated or reasonable?
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Old 09-23-2021, 04:28 PM   #150
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Again no idea what you are saying, you certainly do have the choice to isolate youself.

With very few exceptions, you are not required to live around people go to any public place talk to or see anyone. Plenty of people are not circulating with the public.

You can build a plastic bubble, wear a space suit, etc.

Sorry this is not making any sense to me,,,
But you directly stated that I should not discriminate against those that have not been vaccinated.
How do I isolate myself from them, without discriminating them?
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Old 09-23-2021, 04:34 PM   #151
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So everyone that does except medical mandates is not highly educated or reasonable?
Again no idea what you are saying or think you are reading, its as if you simply want to spit and snarl and be a spoiler and I guess thats your right.

I also dont believe in censorship, so I guess if it makes you feel better to constantly attack, so be it.

It seems like a tough life to be miserable all the time,but if it works for you enjoy.

ATB
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Old 09-23-2021, 04:37 PM   #152
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But you directly stated that I should not discriminate against those that have not been vaccinated.
How do I isolate myself from them, without discriminating them?
Again, its like double talk gibberish,,,

How do you isolate???

You build a cabin house outside of town and avoid people.

You build a plastic bubble in your current home.

You wear a space suit.

You move to the tundra.

You have countless choices, what is the point of this banter???

So much hostility, stress is going to kill you long before COVID.
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Old 09-23-2021, 04:50 PM   #153
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I isolate myself by not doing business interacting with those that have chosen to be unvaccinated.

''Not sure what more to say except that highly educated and experienced and reasonable people do not support medical mandates.''

So anyone that accepts medical mandates are not highly educated or reasonable.
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Old 09-23-2021, 05:02 PM   #154
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I isolate myself by not doing business interacting with those that have chosen to be unvaccinated.

''Not sure what more to say except that highly educated and experienced and reasonable people do not support medical mandates.''

So anyone that accepts medical mandates are not highly educated or reasonable.
Sorry I cannot feed this insanity any more, please dont bother replying to me on this matter.

If you cannot stop yourself I will apologize now for ignoring you, its not reasonable to keep this going. Its wholly dysfunctional and well past the point of anything productive coming out of it.

I have no issues with differing opinions, but your are just playing games with a very serious matter. This is real life and you are just talking nonsense.

I wish you a good retirement and hope you can find some comfort not being subjected to the unvaccinated people until this is no longer a matter of concern to you.

ATB
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Old 09-23-2021, 05:42 PM   #155
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No. I used your own words.
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Old 09-23-2021, 06:07 PM   #156
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I really hate using tools like the ignore list,,,

But sometimes its better. (for everyone)

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On a positive note, NH COVID deaths 7 day avg holding steady at 2.

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Old 09-23-2021, 06:34 PM   #157
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A month ago it was zero.
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Old 09-23-2021, 08:50 PM   #158
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I actually have 2 school age kids and I do not support any vaccination mandate or mask requirements for their teachers or school staff or doctors or anyone else they com into contact with. My kids are vaccinated and we are not concerned about anyone else infecting them.

As for the people at work raising the most concern about the mandates, most do have children, not 100%, but most.

They just have seen the wrong side of government control and do not support medical mandates.

Not sure what more to say except that highly educated and experienced and reasonable people do not support medical mandates. Why is that so hard to believe, because it is not your preference.

You can disagree with them, no problem, but why the hostile responses,,, Its troubling to see such volatile responses to differing opinions and such a strong desire to force your preferences on others about what they must do with their bodies.

Its kinda frighting to see people demanding other people take medications they are not comfortable with.
It disturbs me that you seem to be denying reality repeatedly.

With respect to forcing people to get vaccines and share their vaccine status with schools, camps, etc--I support the vaccine policy that we have had in America for decades. It appears from this most recent post--you and your kids all have plenty of vaccines and have been sharing that info--that you have also been supporting this policy for your entire life...

...until now!
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Old 09-26-2021, 10:48 AM   #159
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https://off-guardian.org/2021/09/22/...vid-cribsheet/
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Old 09-27-2021, 09:20 AM   #160
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https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/offguardian/


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Old 09-27-2021, 10:26 AM   #161
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Thanks, gillygirl, I had not seen either site before. One thing about the Media Fact Check site I really like is that when they criticize Off Guardian, they back it up with facts and links. We can all go back and look at previous Off Guardian posts and decide whether they are a good source or just trolls. My favorite example is the Off Guardian article asserting that no one has died from covid
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Old 10-07-2021, 05:40 AM   #162
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The current estimate is that 175,000 children have been orphaned as a result of the pandemic. That's heartbreaking.

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Old 10-07-2021, 01:44 PM   #163
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Why do you assume that you, me or anyone will become infected, get sick and suffer, when only ~10% of the population has tested positive to COVID, and well less than 1 percent have died. How does this constitute a threat so sever that your fear of infection overrides anyone elses free choice of medical treatment.

Isnt that fear of some significant impact from COVID the irrational concern?

My desire to allow others to choose their medical treatment.

Now if you had a continuing situation like NY saw in the beginning where they needed refrigerated trailers to store the dead bodies, I would agree with your concerns, but we are so far from that today and really dont understand how we continue with most of the current COVID actions.

The best medicine is what mother nature provides, not what shot you and others decide someone else needs. Human are built to adapt and overcome. Its not an instant solution, but it does work when you let it. So in reality isnt reserving medical intervention to those who are seeking it, or when you truly reach an emergency situation the better choice???

After all, you are the one concerned and yet you have taken yourself to FLA where the infection rate is higher then NH. And to do what, demand your neighbors get vaccinated so you can feel comfortable around them? Sorry that strikes me as backwards logic.
Couple of points: I'm wondering if you've walked through an old cemetery lately? I've heard it said that nature wants you dead at 35 and to kill 2 of your 5 children. Looking at old gravestones pretty much confirms that.

Also, how do you feel about the polio vaccine? When that was first given out it was actually a live virus and a small number of people actually got polio from it, yet it was given out in schools- I remember it well. Would it have been better to let polio flourish to this day?

We can hope for better covid vaccines and treatments as time goes on, but 700,000 Americans have died in a year and a half. Surely that warrants some mitigation?
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Old 10-07-2021, 06:50 PM   #164
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The current estimate is that 175,000 children have been orphaned as a result of the pandemic. That's heartbreaking.

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Old 10-07-2021, 10:49 PM   #165
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Couple of points: I'm wondering if you've walked through an old cemetery lately? I've heard it said that nature wants you dead at 35 and to kill 2 of your 5 children. Looking at old gravestones pretty much confirms that.

Also, how do you feel about the polio vaccine? When that was first given out it was actually a live virus and a small number of people actually got polio from it, yet it was given out in schools- I remember it well. Would it have been better to let polio flourish to this day?

We can hope for better covid vaccines and treatments as time goes on, but 700,000 Americans have died in a year and a half. Surely that warrants some mitigation?
How do I feel? I have been very clear NO MANDATES.

I am not an anti-vaccine person, but the data being publicized is very misleading and even if I believed it was all true, the numbers do not support what we are doing and what too many here are promoting. My opinion remains unchanged and only reinforced, vaccination should not be mandatory. Not for this pandemic, its not warranted.

The worse part of all this, and almost to the point of despicable, are the people who are vaccinated and still live in terror of the virus and demand others be vaccinated. A society cannot live with people who impose such draconian fears and will on others, and in particular when its driven by unsubstantiated and unjust fears such as we are seeing. We did that once upon a time, it was called the Salem Witch Trials, a very dark period in our history. Soon to be followed by this one,,,

If you want the vaccine, get it, and give it to your kids and encourage everyone you know to get it, but do not ever force it on anyone or forbid them access to anything based on their vaccination status. My god, they are denying transplant patients surgery if they are unvaccinated. What kind of morbidly dysfunctional society are we becoming. I'm beginning to wonder if there is a second virus causing severe mental health problems.

If you live such a state of fear that as a vaccinated individual you are terrified of being around unvaccinated people, you probably have a serious anxiety issue and should be treated for that. Its a far bigger problem than COVID.

I mean seriously there are posts here where people are trying to actually calculate their personal level of protection from the virus. Is it 82%, 95%, 95% - 3 exposures to 1/2 vaccinated people,,, Its utterly dumbfounding to the point of absurd. A society cannot exist like this. And I guess to some degree it isn't,,, If we stay on the current trajectory as we are going now, America will be in ruin well before the mid-term election, so people wont have to worry about if the current administration is better or worse than the last one.

Thats how I feel.

Sorry, I am just being honest. I dont expect you to like it, but I do EXPECT you to respect it and allow me my opinion.

I have no desire to intentionally upset anyone and I have even intentionally kept away from this forum recently because of the extreme dysfunction and inconceivable levels of fear being promoted here. In 10+ years I have never seen such hostile and disrespectful and misguided posts on this forum as I have seen on this subject. Its a serious unmasking of some Dr Jekyll and Mr Hydes types among us.

Cant wait to see what happens next, thank god I have learned to make use of the ignore list, and thank god for the level headed among us who are not a stupid as I am to keep getting drawn back into this never ending carnival of fear.
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Old 10-08-2021, 09:22 AM   #166
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How do I feel? I have been very clear NO MANDATES.

I am not an anti-vaccine person, but the data being publicized is very misleading and even if I believed it was all true, the numbers do not support what we are doing and what too many here are promoting. My opinion remains unchanged and only reinforced, vaccination should not be mandatory. Not for this pandemic, its not warranted.

The worse part of all this, and almost to the point of despicable, are the people who are vaccinated and still live in terror of the virus and demand others be vaccinated. A society cannot live with people who impose such draconian fears and will on others, and in particular when its driven by unsubstantiated and unjust fears such as we are seeing. We did that once upon a time, it was called the Salem Witch Trials, a very dark period in our history. Soon to be followed by this one,,,

If you want the vaccine, get it, and give it to your kids and encourage everyone you know to get it, but do not ever force it on anyone or forbid them access to anything based on their vaccination status. My god, they are denying transplant patients surgery if they are unvaccinated. What kind of morbidly dysfunctional society are we becoming. I'm beginning to wonder if there is a second virus causing severe mental health problems.

If you live such a state of fear that as a vaccinated individual you are terrified of being around unvaccinated people, you probably have a serious anxiety issue and should be treated for that. Its a far bigger problem than COVID.

I mean seriously there are posts here where people are trying to actually calculate their personal level of protection from the virus. Is it 82%, 95%, 95% - 3 exposures to 1/2 vaccinated people,,, Its utterly dumbfounding to the point of absurd. A society cannot exist like this. And I guess to some degree it isn't,,, If we stay on the current trajectory as we are going now, America will be in ruin well before the mid-term election, so people wont have to worry about if the current administration is better or worse than the last one.

Thats how I feel.

Sorry, I am just being honest. I dont expect you to like it, but I do EXPECT you to respect it and allow me my opinion.

I have no desire to intentionally upset anyone and I have even intentionally kept away from this forum recently because of the extreme dysfunction and inconceivable levels of fear being promoted here. In 10+ years I have never seen such hostile and disrespectful and misguided posts on this forum as I have seen on this subject. Its a serious unmasking of some Dr Jekyll and Mr Hydes types among us.

Cant wait to see what happens next, thank god I have learned to make use of the ignore list, and thank god for the level headed among us who are not a stupid as I am to keep getting drawn back into this never ending carnival of fear.
Maybe if you even once posted the data that you assert are misleading we might get somewhere. Instead just another long tirade asserting that others are are upset
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Old 10-08-2021, 09:49 AM   #167
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Maybe if you even once posted the data that you assert are misleading we might get somewhere. Instead just another long tirade asserting that others are are upset
Go back to post 156 as I do not think he will be answering you.
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Old 10-08-2021, 10:52 AM   #168
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Go back to post 156 as I do not think he will be answering you.
No worries, my intended audience was the broader group (plus he will know it's there from your response )

Back to the important point, though. While the experts have not been perfect (they're human), there is a gigantic body of evidence that the vaccines are safe, effective, and saving a huge number of lives. There is no intentionally misleading data or conspiracy as he gets so worked up about. Virtually everybody is better off getting vaccinated, for their own health and that of their families and friends.
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Old 10-08-2021, 11:04 AM   #169
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At my school we have had two symptomatic positive COVID cases this year which has led to students and teachers having to stay home and/or submit to daily testing to remain in school.

Both individuals who tested positive were not vaccinated.

I'm hard pressed to support school employees having the right to make their own decisions regarding vaccinations when I see first hand how it impacts innocent children and their parents/caregivers.
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Old 10-08-2021, 11:33 AM   #170
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I got my flu shot today and am hoping they've upgraded the microchips to 5G.

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Old 10-08-2021, 11:55 AM   #171
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Back to the important point, though. While the experts have not been perfect (they're human), there is a gigantic body of evidence that the vaccines are safe, effective, and saving a huge number of lives. There is no intentionally misleading data or conspiracy as he gets so worked up about. Virtually everybody is better off getting vaccinated, for their own health and that of their families and friends.
That is your opinion, his differs from yours. So come on man, just let it go, agree to disagree, the both of you and move on.
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Old 10-08-2021, 01:37 PM   #172
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No worries, my intended audience was the broader group (plus he will know it's there from your response )

Back to the important point, though. While the experts have not been perfect (they're human), there is a gigantic body of evidence that the vaccines are safe, effective, and saving a huge number of lives. There is no intentionally misleading data or conspiracy as he gets so worked up about. Virtually everybody is better off getting vaccinated, for their own health and that of their families and friends.
I'm sure the hero police officer from Denver would wholeheartedly disagree with your comment that the vaccine is safe:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...115956979.html
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Old 10-08-2021, 01:50 PM   #173
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I'm sure the hero police officer from Denver would wholeheartedly disagree with your comment that the vaccine is safe:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...115956979.html
What a remarkable coincidence that this happened to a person in the midst of a lawyer-led vaccine resistance campaign....and nowhere else in the world. I look forward to following his lawsuit.

You might want to Google "lives saved by covid vaccine", and/or "risks of covid vaccine" to get a fuller picture
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Old 10-08-2021, 02:20 PM   #174
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What a remarkable coincidence that this happened to a person in the midst of a lawyer-led vaccine resistance campaign....and nowhere else in the world. I look forward to following his lawsuit.

You might want to Google "lives saved by covid vaccine", and/or "risks of covid vaccine" to get a fuller picture
I’m sure that will make his kids feel much better…..
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Old 10-08-2021, 02:29 PM   #175
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I’m sure that will make his kids feel much better…..
I'm sure the 175,000 kids who have lost their parents to Covid feel just as good.

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Old 10-09-2021, 11:48 AM   #176
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I got my flu shot today and am hoping they've upgraded the microchips to 5G.

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I'm sure the 175,000 kids who have lost their parents to Covid feel just as good.

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And this is why this matter will never have agreement, more bogus numbers.

Every person that died and tested positive for COVID did not necessarily die from COVID, nor can you say they would have lived if they were vaccinated. Those will always be unknown numbers.

This is fearmongering of the worst kind and is whats stopping the country from moving forward, NOT any measure of vaccinate rates!

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Old 10-09-2021, 12:20 PM   #177
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And this is why this matter will never have agreement, more bogus numbers.

Every person that died and tested positive for COVID did not necessarily die from COVID, nor can you say they would have lived if they were vaccinated. Those will always be unknown numbers.

This is fearmongering of the worst kind and is whats stopping the country from moving forward, NOT any measure of vaccinate rates!
You are 100% correct! Covey wrote about “first seek to understand, then be understood”. Unless it fits their narrative, some just don’t want to understand there is another side. Thanks for fighting the fight…
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Old 10-09-2021, 03:46 PM   #178
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And this is why this matter will never have agreement, more bogus numbers.

Every person that died and tested positive for COVID did not necessarily die from COVID, nor can you say they would have lived if they were vaccinated. Those will always be unknown numbers.

This is fearmongering of the worst kind and is whats stopping the country from moving forward, NOT any measure of vaccinate rates!
OTOH, maybe the reason we will never have agreement is the dismissal of things before they are understood--as our penpal TKD just pointed out.

The reason we "know" is that the numbers were published and peer-reviewed in the Journal of Pediatrics, a well respected source. They do not include non-covid deaths from people who tested positive. If you think they are bogus, please read the report and tell us specifically why.
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Old 10-09-2021, 05:35 PM   #179
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You are 100% correct! Covey wrote about “first seek to understand, then be understood”. Unless it fits their narrative, some just don’t want to understand there is another side. Thanks for fighting the fight…
I only wish I could take credit for being right, but the real truth is there is not "right" about the vaccine being the best choice for everyone.

The truth of the matter is we have roughly 100 years of experience with vaccines, in evolutionary time that nothing, not even a sneeze.

And only in the last 50 years have we gotten kinda ok with it, but we certainly have not perfected this science.

And so when we say abracadabra presto boom with in months we have created a near 100% perfect vaccine that is the best thing for everyone, oh and everyone must take it or it wont work, then everyone should raise at least one eyebrow.

I find it amazing that so many here will tell you about the studies, and groups who have certified the vaccine as the best thing since we learned to wash our hands with soap before surgery, and that was less that 200 years ago,,,

The interweb is a wonderful invention, if you search you will find credible medical and scientific people saying the vaccine is much better then natural immunity, and then you will find equally credible medical and scientific people telling you natural immunity is much more effective than any vaccine. Sorry, there is not absolute in this based on our current level of science.

Bottom line is the vaccine is not a cure, it is not near 100% effective, it is not right for everyone NO ONE SHOULD BE FORCED TO TAKE IT.

The vaccine is a bandaid!

Now sometimes a bandaid is really good thing and it can be a life saver, but you cannot say with 100% surety that in this situation where the long term studies are not yet completed, and the world is so politically motivated, that we can stand on the soap box and demand everyone get vaccinated or they must be isolated from the rest of the world or untold countless people will die. We truly have no idea at this point in time how many have actually died from COVID as the data is so manipulated it is beyond excusable. A husband and wife murder-suicide who both had COVID and were both listed as COVID deaths, countless cancer patients who were on their deathbeds and tested positive for COVID were listed as COVID deaths, people who died in car accidents were listed as COVID deaths. Its become a political game with peopled lives being used as game pieces.

This is a medical and scientific and political nightmare.

The best we all can do is follow our own instinct, and practice common sense and stop worrying about the other guy.

If the vaccine is only effective if everyone gets it, then it is a failure as you will never reach 100% vaccination.

I personally think it is a tool in the tool box and probably a good one for most to have, its like a good adjustable wrench, but maybe not as good as a vice grip, and clearly it is not the one tool everyone need.

Get vaccinated or dont, but dont impose your medical fear and demands on anyone else.

I can only imagine how much uproar there would be if business owners and teachers and countless others started saying they refused to be around the vaccinated for any reason, the screams of mistreatment and injustice and discrimination would be deafening.
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Old 10-09-2021, 05:50 PM   #180
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The best we all can do is follow our own instinct, and practice common sense and stop worrying about the other guy.
Whoa.

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Old 10-09-2021, 07:18 PM   #181
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Whoa.

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You dont have to agree, just dont attempt to impose your fears or preferences on me, it wont sit well.

Oh, and your instinct can be for you to be vaccinated, and theres nothing wrong with encouraging others to be vaccinated, just not forced and not isolated/denied access/discriminated against because they chose not to.
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Old 10-09-2021, 07:51 PM   #182
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Maybe some are too young to remember but Others lived through many things that were deemed safe and are no longer available because the science was wrong. Blind trust is dangerous and naďve ( bordering on ignorant). saccharine, DDT, asbestos, lead paint, agent orange side effects - shall we go on? Maybe it’s me being of the Vietnam era generation but why everybody believes the government 100% blindly is something I’ll never understand. Have a great night everyone.
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Old 10-09-2021, 08:40 PM   #183
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You dont have to agree, just dont attempt to impose your fears or preferences on me, it wont sit well.

Oh, and your instinct can be for you to be vaccinated, and theres nothing wrong with encouraging others to be vaccinated, just not forced and not isolated/denied access/discriminated against because they chose not to.
Again. If they have a choice, others have the choice not to interact with them if they choose. A choose must go both ways.

It is like in business, you have the choice to do as your employer wishes... and they have the choice to fire you should you not.

You have a choice to comply with the wishes of the business owner or the choice to go elsewhere.

I watched this at the Meredith McDonald's when they had their customer mask mandate. I had the choice to wear a mask, or use the drive through. Other than that, I could eat elsewhere.

They left the choice to me... but only a few felt they were being discriminated against because they could not enter without the mask.
If they wanted proof of vaccination, then I would need to show my card, use the drive through, or go elsewhere.

People are given lots of choices... but the choices have consequences.
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Old 10-10-2021, 10:26 AM   #184
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Maybe some are too young to remember but Others lived through many things that were deemed safe and are no longer available because the science was wrong. Blind trust is dangerous and naďve ( bordering on ignorant). saccharine, DDT, asbestos, lead paint, agent orange side effects - shall we go on? Maybe it’s me being of the Vietnam era generation but why everybody believes the government 100% blindly is something I’ll never understand. Have a great night everyone.
These are great examples and I agree we should not always trust the government or big business.

But in the case of these vaccines--unlike your examples--there is a very clear danger to individuals in not taking the vaccines and wearing masks--a 10-20X increased risk of covid.

The products that you list were also motivated by things other than health, and were not tested the way the vaccines have been.

So as I balance all those things, it's an easy decision to get jabbed
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Old 10-10-2021, 12:05 PM   #185
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These are great examples and I agree we should not always trust the government or big business.

But in the case of these vaccines--unlike your examples--there is a very clear danger to individuals in not taking the vaccines and wearing masks--a 10-20X increased risk of covid.

The products that you list were also motivated by things other than health, and were not tested the way the vaccines have been.

So as I balance all those things, it's an easy decision to get jabbed
Many numbers/ “facts” are being stated as absolutes regardless of motivation. people are basing their decisions on these numbers. Firm believer in Absolute power corrupts absolutely! Lots of corruption and ulterior motives out there so these “ facts” bother me. I applaud you doing what you all believe is best for you. I just expect the same courtesy/ rights.

Going to spend some time in the water and freeze a little - have a great rest of your weekend folks.
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Old 10-10-2021, 01:10 PM   #186
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Rights would be a protection from government, not the mass market.
And no Right is absolute, it is determined by legal precedence; generally SCOTUS rulings.
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Old 10-11-2021, 04:02 PM   #187
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Rights would be a protection from government, not the mass market.

And no Right is absolute, it is determined by legal precedence; generally SCOTUS rulings.
Hate to be Captain Obvious here but Rights would be a protection of a person - regardless from whom.

Laws are deemed from legislation/ law makers up through SCOTUS when applicable.
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Old 10-11-2021, 06:27 PM   #188
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No. Rights are protections from government only.
Any employer or trading partner (mass market) can place requirements on you without the force of legislation.

The only way to change that is to impede the free market... which is done through legislation/regulation.
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Old 10-12-2021, 07:55 AM   #189
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Hate to be Captain Obvious here but Rights would be a protection of a person - regardless from whom.

Laws are deemed from legislation/ law makers up through SCOTUS when applicable.
Or more affirmatively stated, Rights are protections of an individual from everyone else, any organization, any group, or government.

They are not just some limited paper promise from some government entity.

Individual people can violate your right, stores can violate your rights, organizations can violate your rights, governments can violate your rights, and they all have and it actually happens a lot.

From an academic perspective:

What are rights?

Rights are conditions and protections that cannot be breached or taken away by others, even by the government or the state. In liberal democratic systems, every individual is assumed to have certain rights. It is the duty of the government and legal system to protect and uphold these rights. The idea of rights is not new, in fact, it dates back to the 1600s. English philosopher John Locke was one of the first to suggest that all people were born with ‘natural rights’. Locke described three fundamental rights: the right to life, the right to liberty (freedom) and the right to property (to have one’s belongings safe from theft or seizure). Ever since the days of Locke, people have struggled and fought to defend or expand their rights. Some notable rights-based struggles included the American and French Revolutions; the anti-slavery and abolition movements of the 19th century; the American civil rights movement in the 1960s; and the Aboriginal land rights campaign in Australia. The struggle for rights still continues in many parts of the world, in places like Myanmar (Burma), Tibet, Iran and many African nations.
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Old 10-12-2021, 02:05 PM   #190
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Or more affirmatively stated, Rights are protections of an individual from everyone else, any organization, any group, or government.

They are not just some limited paper promise from some government entity.

Individual people can violate your right, stores can violate your rights, organizations can violate your rights, governments can violate your rights, and they all have and it actually happens a lot.

From an academic perspective:

What are rights?

Rights are conditions and protections that cannot be breached or taken away by others, even by the government or the state. In liberal democratic systems, every individual is assumed to have certain rights. It is the duty of the government and legal system to protect and uphold these rights. The idea of rights is not new, in fact, it dates back to the 1600s. English philosopher John Locke was one of the first to suggest that all people were born with ‘natural rights’. Locke described three fundamental rights: the right to life, the right to liberty (freedom) and the right to property (to have one’s belongings safe from theft or seizure). Ever since the days of Locke, people have struggled and fought to defend or expand their rights. Some notable rights-based struggles included the American and French Revolutions; the anti-slavery and abolition movements of the 19th century; the American civil rights movement in the 1960s; and the Aboriginal land rights campaign in Australia. The struggle for rights still continues in many parts of the world, in places like Myanmar (Burma), Tibet, Iran and many African nations.
Agreed and well said- thank you Unfortunately others think they are infallible. - thinking in absolutes. Those are the ones that scare me.
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Old 10-12-2021, 06:27 PM   #191
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And those ''rights'' never existed.
The Right to Life, Liberty, and Property only exists for as long as you can hold it.

An entity contracting with you can set any guidelines for that interaction.
Those ''rights'' are removed by the contractual agreement that you enter.

For instance, an employer cannot hold you down and vaccinate you... but an employer is not required to provide you with employment - employed at will.

A merchant cannot hold you down and vaccinate you... but they may choose not to cater to you - select clientele

I cannot hold you down and vaccinate you... but I do not have to interact with you - shun/ostracism.

Government is a lot less powerful than social interactions in the free market.

So when someone claims a ''right'', it usually they do not want to suffer the negative consequences of their actions/choices.
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Old 10-12-2021, 07:33 PM   #192
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Agreed and well said- thank you Unfortunately others think they are infallible. - thinking in absolutes. Those are the ones that scare me.
Ummm---pretty sure you just posted that businesses and organizations do not have rights or cannot have their rights infringed upon? That seems absolute to me.

You may remember that a Supreme Court (that you support?) has ruled in favor of business rights numerous times recently--political donations, labor rules, free speech, etc
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Old 10-13-2021, 05:36 AM   #193
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Ummm---pretty sure you just posted that businesses and organizations do not have rights or cannot have their rights infringed upon? That seems absolute to me.

You may remember that a Supreme Court (that you support?) has ruled in favor of business rights numerous times recently--political donations, labor rules, free speech, etc
Typical attack attack attack. One should never use the word “you” in a discussion. Makes it personal and naturally puts people on the defensive.

Never posted that nor believe on item#1

Agree with SCOTUS on item #2

Have a great day.
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Old 10-13-2021, 06:28 PM   #194
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Then the you have a dichotomy.

Either the business has the Right to act in its own interest, or it doesn't.
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Old 10-13-2021, 08:06 PM   #195
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3-cheers (sarcasm alert-) for the four Republican members of the Executive Council who all voted NO to not accept the $27-mil in federal vaccination funding for New Hampshire.

New Hampshire don't need no 27-million dollars from Uncle Sam for vaccination funding ......LIve Free and/or Die!

Gov Chris Sununu said: "The vote showed a reckless disregard for the lives we are losing while they turn away the tools our state needs to fight and win this battle against COVID," Sununu said .......yes, he did say this according to WMUR-tv video.

updated Oct 14 2021 from Oct 13: https://www.wmur.com/article/new-ham...-2021/37948586

Gov Sununu said he did not know of any other state that turned down vaccination funding, and it is likely the $27-mil will wind up going to a large state like New York or California.

From NHPR, Oct 13 2021 ...... http://www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2021-10-...nation-efforts ..... rejects $27-mil federal contracts covid vaccination efforts

Ok, so why did all four Republican executive councilors all say NO ...... ..... to accepting this $27-mil federal grant .... making N.H. the only state to say NO ..... ?

Will do a little research here and try to find some fantastic interesting quote comments from the individual councilors about the WHY they chose to say NO.
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