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Old 04-01-2020, 09:36 PM   #1
Winilyme
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Default Looking Ahead - Beyond the Curve

I ran across the below today and thought I'd share. This starts taking us into our not-too-distant-future. What will our transition to 'normal' encompass and what will things be like when we get there? I don't have any firm opinions yet but there sure is an awful lot to think about. One thing I feel certain of: life will not be the same for a lengthy period of time and when it does settle down, it'll be a different kind of 'same'.

Don't neglect to check out the link at the bottom for more interesting reading.

- - -

FORTUNE CEO DAILYCEO’s
Finding a Middle Ground to Tackle COVID-19 Path Forward
March 30, 2020

President Trump’s talk of reopening the economy on Easter, which he has now backed off of, has helped launched an important debate. At the moment, we seem stuck between two unrealistic alternatives:

1. A quick return to work, or
2. A widespread lock down until a vaccine is ready (a year or more in the future).

Both alternatives could lead to social and economic breakdown.But no one has articulated a clear vision for what the reasonable middle ground would look like.

What might it look like? The elements of a possible strategy are beginning to emerge.It will probably involve a nationwide lock down that lasts at least through the end of May. Then, the return to work needs to roll out gradually, and include the following elements:

1. Continued protection/isolation for vulnerable populations;
2. Continued restrictions on large gatherings;
3. Increased production of protective equipment and ventilators;
4. Some proven therapies for treating the most vulnerable;
5. Priority given to those who can’t work from home over those who can;
6. Staggered start times to minimize rush hour crowding;
7. Widespread and rapid testing so new infections can be spotted quickly;
8. Sharp restrictions on travel so new infections can be isolated and contained;
9. Antibody testing so immune individuals can be identified.

The world should be watching China, Hong Kong, Singapore and South Korea as they probe the parameters of such an effort—even though more democratic societies will struggle to mimic many of their less democratic tactics.

Government needs to lead this effort; but business plays a critical role. Fortune will be holding a virtual gathering of members of its CEO Initiative tomorrow, to begin a conversation on this topic. I’ll have more to report on Wednesday.

In the meantime, former Honeywell CEO Dave Cote—who successfully navigated the Great Recession and added $60 billion to his company’s market value before stepping down in 2017—has some advice for CEOs in the midst of this crisis. You can read the full interview here, but some excerpts:

—Focus on leadership, not consensus. “What matters is getting feedback from all your people, then making a decision.”

—Hope for the best, plan for the worst. “Pick a plan and start executing as if you expect the worst to happen.”

—Keep workers around for the recovery. In the recession “we did very few layoffs… Instead, we relied on furloughs.”

—In a crisis, don’t take a bonus. “When workers asked me if I intended to take a bonus for 2009, I’d say that was up to the board… That was a big mistake.”

Alan Murray, Fortune Editor-in-Chief
@alansmurray
alan.murray@fortune.comhttp://links.info.fortune.com/e/evib?_t=5c2d888702774d17aa3d0350287b6d73&_m=cfccf819f2fe4a5580dfcf6d1dcf5ed4&_e=oHlvNmaNrDEGuL2zJFpd5sl7ziyCtMK8HWzsXIklScvGY-zqex70mAxLOoDPgSsh0a2z-ojfiU02VtOJt_hjVi0EyKcQjYhMggH7r0b4tcGhohXrLT-Hb9m8-qHt_OMS
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Old 04-01-2020, 10:39 PM   #2
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Default ...... coronavirus obituaries

April 1, 2020 NY Times coronavirus obituaries, no subscription needed

http://www.nytimes.com/series/people...rus-obituaries

Everyone dies sooner or later, here's to making it later, like much, much, much later!

108 is a good number. Bless you, Hilda Churchill, 1911-2020.
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Old 04-01-2020, 11:33 PM   #3
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Arrow Better Link...

http://links.info.fortune.com/e/evib...-Hb9m8-qHt_OMS

The correct response to pandemics is to copy Japan. Each time a virus appears, their uniform demographic puts on a face mask, and goes about their business.

The US, IMHO, can't respond similarly--it's just not in our DNA.

You can say, "Japan doesn't have Mardi Gras" and, "Japan doesn't have Spring Break", or for two major US city officials to say--last month, "Come visit our Chinatown". (One on each coast). :roll1:

This week, a dozen city cops were sent to break up a six-year-old's birthday party!

A huge portion of our population would survive this virus, wouldn't get it in the first place, or if contracting it, wouldn't even display it. That's why our workforce can return to work soon after May 15th.

Those who wouldn't survive this, are older, and those whose immune system is compromised in some way.

The worst? Those with compromised lung issues.

Those Boomers who took up tobacco, perhaps?
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Old 04-02-2020, 05:37 AM   #4
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I wonder how these events will permanently alter our daily lives. Think back to pre 9/11. Remember flying without an ID? Going to the gate to wish people well when they departed, and meeting others at the gate when they arrived? Drinking water, keeping your shoes on, and having a pen knife as you went through security? These and many other things are unknown to my kids. Maybe it’s better, maybe it’s not; regardless, we’re never going back to those days.

I wonder what will be altered as a result of these past weeks. Will wearing masks in public become the new normal? Will handshaking become a thing of the past? Will we see government grow as it looks to combat future global health crises (like the creation of Homeland Security after 9/11). Will having your temperature taken before entering big public venues be put in place, just like bags are searched now?

I’m not looking to debate whether these and other things should or should not occur, just wonder what people think might be permanently altered as a result of COVID-19.

Last edited by Garcia; 04-02-2020 at 05:59 AM. Reason: spelling error
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Old 04-02-2020, 08:33 AM   #5
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Brick and mortar stores were taking a hit before all this happened and they are going to continue their down hill spiral.
Many people that were reluctant to order things on line are signing up for these services at record rates. Now that they see how much easier it is to have things delivered to your door step rather than go fight the traffic and crowds they will increase their online buying after this has passed.
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Old 04-02-2020, 08:58 AM   #6
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Default This is a Societal Inflection Point...

Putting on my "Karnak the Magnificent" hat and cape to predict the future, I believe we will look back on this time in several years, (or less), as a huge inflection point for how we conduct our lives professionally and personally.

--I have been in technology sales for my entire career. Every year, all of the big tech companies, (Oracle, Dell, Fujitsu, etc), have their major customer events that attract thousands, (tens of thousands, in some cases), people. Corona has caused these to go virtual this year, and I believe that trend will continue.

--Video calls/video conferencing will boom. Business travel for sales calls, meetings, etc will decrease dramatically.

--Same for education. Why do kids have to be physically in school for 180 days? (public school). What is so magical about 180 days? This shift will be slower due to unions, etc, but education will move to online/virtual as well.

--Schools/companies that do not adopt technology to facilitate the above will be left in the dust.

--This may be the catalyst that the world needs to further clean up the environment. The "before-and-after" smog pictures from large cities around the world since everyone has been home is dramatic.

I could go on and on, but you get the picture. Historians will look back on this time as one which changed the world.
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Old 04-02-2020, 09:30 AM   #7
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On May 30, 1918 in New York City, President Trump's grandfather, Frederick Trump, passed away as an early victim of the 1918-1919 world wide, flu pandemic. (see wikipedia-Frederick Trump, 1869-1918, age 49)

Here in 2020 with all the communications and medical care improved so much, this coronavirus Covid-19 will not be as wide spread and deadly as the 1918-flu pandemic, which also killed both my dad's 28 and 30-year old parents in Boston in December, 1918 at the worst stage of the pandemic.
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Old 04-02-2020, 09:44 AM   #8
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From the CDC

The 1918 influenza pandemic was the most severe pandemic in recent history. It was caused by an H1N1 virus with genes of avian origin. Although there is not universal consensus regarding where the virus originated, it spread worldwide during 1918-1919. In the United States, it was first identified in military personnel in spring 1918.

It is estimated that about 500 million people or one-third of the world’s population became infected with this virus. The number of deaths was estimated to be at least 50 million worldwide with about 675,000 occurring in the United States. Mortality was high in people younger than 5 years old, 20-40 years old, and 65 years and older. The high mortality in healthy people, including those in the 20-40 year age group, was a unique feature of this pandemic.
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Old 04-02-2020, 09:57 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeredithMan View Post

--I have been in technology sales for my entire career. Every year, all of the big tech companies, (Oracle, Dell, Fujitsu, etc), have their major customer events that attract thousands, (tens of thousands, in some cases), people. Corona has caused these to go virtual this year, and I believe that trend will continue.

--Video calls/video conferencing will boom. Business travel for sales calls, meetings, etc will decrease dramatically.

--Same for education. Why do kids have to be physically in school for 180 days? (public school). What is so magical about 180 days? This shift will be slower due to unions, etc, but education will move to online/virtual as well.

--Schools/companies that do not adopt technology to facilitate the above will be left in the dust.

--This may be the catalyst that the world needs to further clean up the environment. The "before-and-after" smog pictures from large cities around the world since everyone has been home is dramatic.

I could go on and on, but you get the picture. Historians will look back on this time as one which changed the world.
Yes and no.

While all this stuff is great, it is also very expensive. Many want it, heck even just expect it, but don't want to hear a break down of the costs which can be staggering and to a small business or rural community prohibitively expensive.
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Old 04-02-2020, 10:08 AM   #10
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MeredithMan,

Tech sales here too in the SAP space. SAP changed the annual NA conference (usually 20K+ attendees) to virtual as well. Be interesting to see how this goes as this is traditionally a big selling event for both SAP and partners. Not sure that this will work virtually, but we'll see. Certainly a hit to the Orlando economy, amongst all the others.
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Old 04-02-2020, 10:12 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeredithMan View Post
Putting on my "Karnak the Magnificent" hat and cape to predict the future, I believe we will look back on this time in several years, (or less), as a huge inflection point for how we conduct our lives professionally and personally.

--I have been in technology sales for my entire career. Every year, all of the big tech companies, (Oracle, Dell, Fujitsu, etc), have their major customer events that attract thousands, (tens of thousands, in some cases), people. Corona has caused these to go virtual this year, and I believe that trend will continue.

--Video calls/video conferencing will boom. Business travel for sales calls, meetings, etc will decrease dramatically.

--Same for education. Why do kids have to be physically in school for 180 days? (public school). What is so magical about 180 days? This shift will be slower due to unions, etc, but education will move to online/virtual as well.

--Schools/companies that do not adopt technology to facilitate the above will be left in the dust.

--This may be the catalyst that the world needs to further clean up the environment. The "before-and-after" smog pictures from large cities around the world since everyone has been home is dramatic.

I could go on and on, but you get the picture. Historians will look back on this time as one which changed the world.
I cannot see grade school going completely online. That would be telling the parents you cant go to work because your first grader cannot stay alone to virtually learn.
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Old 04-23-2020, 09:19 AM   #12
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Default The Curve? Look to the West Coast...

California's "enforcers" dump sand in park...see unintended consequences.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/californi...ial-distancing
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Old 04-23-2020, 09:24 AM   #13
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What was Jeff Goldblume’s line in Jurassic Park - Nature finds a way!


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Old 04-23-2020, 09:30 AM   #14
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A lot of governors (and mayors) seem to be doing a decent job balancing personal freedom and pubic health, our’s included. There do seem to be a lot however that are using COVID to advance their own agendas under the guise of “public health and safety”.

NYC’s snitch line, NJ using drones, MI not even allowing people who live on their boats operate them, etc., etc. How reluctant will these pols be to remove the restrictions they’ve imposed? Scary (1984)
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Old 04-23-2020, 01:12 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Paugus Bay Resident View Post
MeredithMan,

Tech sales here too in the SAP space. SAP changed the annual NA conference (usually 20K+ attendees) to virtual as well. Be interesting to see how this goes as this is traditionally a big selling event for both SAP and partners. Not sure that this will work virtually, but we'll see. Certainly a hit to the Orlando economy, amongst all the others.
I'm not sure how your experiences have gone but I have not attended any virtual conferences. I usually attend the GSX (big security show) in Vegas. I have received a 100 or so invites in my email.
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Old 04-23-2020, 02:25 PM   #16
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I cannot see grade school going completely online. That would be telling the parents you cant go to work because your first grader cannot stay alone to virtually learn.

School's will resume regular operations at some point but clearly not the rest of this school year, and I wouldn't assume that it will happen this fall either. A close friend of my family, is a superintendent in southern NH and they are already working out a continency plan, should on line learning need to continue after summer break. A lot of colleges are already starting to make that call for the fall semester, so don't be surprised if the state or local officials make the call sooner than later. In order to give parents time to make proper plans, that call should be made sooner than later.
One thing you can almost certainly kiss goodbye are "snow days" and the make up days that go with them. A lot of communities were already starting to issue blizzard bags, in the event of snow days, I imagine it will become standard practice going forward for every community, that in the event of a "Snow Day", it will still be considered an active school day with online learning, so no makeup days required.
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Old 04-23-2020, 02:47 PM   #17
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The courts are still in business out west, but most hearings take place remotely, currently by phone. File and serve your papers, the court schedules the date and time of the remote hearing. Works okay.
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Old 04-23-2020, 03:31 PM   #18
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I'm not sure how your experiences have gone but I have not attended any virtual conferences. I usually attend the GSX (big security show) in Vegas. I have received a 100 or so invites in my email.
It's got to be brutal for the big conferences that are "must attend events". But there may be a ray of good news for the smaller events and seminars. I'm planning on attending a couple of seminars virtually that I never would have gotten on a plane for.
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Old 04-23-2020, 03:37 PM   #19
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Winilyme, I feel like a lot of items on your list are things that we should have been practicing long ago. There are powerful cultural forces that keep us from doing things that would keep us healthier. We all heard about how the Japanese have always worn masks in public when they were sick out of respect for the common good, but we thought that could never happen in the US, without asking why it couldn't. It's because we value individual freedom too much and the common good not enough.

So the first lesson I hope we will learn from this crisis is that the common good IS also the individual good.

I predict that at some point in the future we're going to realize that we've created a majority population of obese diabetics with heart disease, just as we previously created a population of nicotine addicts, and we're going to cleanse the country's food supply by stopping the shocking predominance of toxic junk food in grocery stores and restaurants. At some point it will be against the law to produce and sell food that kills. We're going to be FORCED to do this when we realize our population is unfit for most jobs and that instead of contributing to the economy, they're draining trillions of dollars in healthcare costs from the economy. We're not doing this right now because we still value individual freedom above everything else. We will start doing it when we just can't afford to support an unhealthy population and when we've run out of healthy workers.

I think the COVID-19 crisis is taking us one step closer to a food revolution because the scientific evidence is coming in about the vulnerability of obese people in the crisis.

Yes, this post is about the economy, because we've finally come to realize that human health is the basis of economic activity.
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Old 04-23-2020, 04:16 PM   #20
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School's will resume regular operations at some point but clearly not the rest of this school year, and I wouldn't assume that it will happen this fall either. A close friend of my family, is a superintendent in southern NH and they are already working out a continency plan, should on line learning need to continue after summer break. A lot of colleges are already starting to make that call for the fall semester, so don't be surprised if the state or local officials make the call sooner than later. In order to give parents time to make proper plans, that call should be made sooner than later.
One thing you can almost certainly kiss goodbye are "snow days" and the make up days that go with them. A lot of communities were already starting to issue blizzard bags, in the event of snow days, I imagine it will become standard practice going forward for every community, that in the event of a "Snow Day", it will still be considered an active school day with online learning, so no makeup days required.
Sometimes I wonder how many college kids will attend if they cannot be on campus?
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Old 04-23-2020, 05:02 PM   #21
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Why would a parent pay for a fall college semester if a student is doing remote learning.


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Old 04-23-2020, 05:45 PM   #22
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Why wouldn't they get something back for this semester?
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Old 04-23-2020, 06:16 PM   #23
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Why wouldn't they get something back for this semester?


You are correct, but no college or university that I know of has agreed to refund any of this springs tuition


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Old 04-23-2020, 09:44 PM   #24
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You are correct, but no college or university that I know of has agreed to refund any of this springs tuition


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Many are refunding room and board. Because they are in class there is no refund or discount for tuition
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Old 04-23-2020, 09:46 PM   #25
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Supposedly some colleges and universities have or are in the process of refunding a precentage of room and board fees, but I'm hearing this second hand. Legally you would think they would have to, but who knows. As for the cost of online courses go, I'm pretty sure prices are equal to that of a regular inhouse courses.
What's really becoming a huge mess, are the majors that require labs and clinicals. We now have college students stuck in limbo, unable to finish their requirements (can't advance in there major or can't graduate). A quick example would be the Dental Hygiene Department. I wouldn't be surprised if schools that offer such courses, have to postpone, new incoming students, in an effort to get the current students caught up. What should have been a 2 or 4 year course, or however long a particular major takes, now might have an extra year tacked on and no up and coming freshmen. It's going to create a ripple effects in the colleges, that will take years to correct.
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Old 04-23-2020, 10:18 PM   #26
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Have heard and read many are planning to refund money. As of this writing none have!


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Old 04-23-2020, 10:59 PM   #27
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Have heard and read many are planning to refund money. As of this writing none have!


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My daughter is a junior at UNH, they're giving back room and board, but not tuition. I don't think that many schools if any will refund or reduce tuition. Even if they wanted to, most cannot afford it. (I'm painfully aware that many of these places are gold-plated, and that colleges make governments look hyper efficient, but that does not mean they have ready cash.)
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Old 04-24-2020, 04:57 AM   #28
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Default High Salaries

It would be hard for colleges like UMAss to refund money and still pay these salaries! Good jobs at good wages!

UMass has 9 people making over $600,000 per year. Absolutely crazy!

Michael Collins Chancellor & SVP Hlth Sciences $ 1,096,430.75
Terence Flotte Exec Dep Chanc Provost & Dean $ 1,076,817.20
Matthew McCall Head Basketball Coach $ 827,000.40
Michael Green Vice Provost Rsch Strat Initia $ 741,960.24
Martin Meehan President, University of Mass $ 682,270.42
James Glasheen Exec VC Innovation & Bus Devel $ 672,837.20
Derek Lovley Associate Dean CNS $ 637,361.56
Walter Bell Head Football Coach $ 628,692.52
Mark Klempner Exec Vice Chancellor, UMBL $ 627,837.16
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Old 04-24-2020, 06:50 AM   #29
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So the first lesson I hope we will learn from this crisis is that the common good IS also the individual good.
You'd have fit right into 1940 Germany with that sentiment.

Conversely, America was founded on the idea of the supremacy of the individual. Granted, we've deviated wildly from that founding premise as time has marched on.
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Old 04-24-2020, 07:00 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by VitaBene View Post
Sometimes I wonder how many college kids will attend if they cannot be on campus?
My wife and I have been paying out of pocket for nearly all of our youngest son's on-campus college education. He's a senior this year. There's no need for it to cost this much.

The entrenched university establishment will fight to keep the gravy train they have, but the cost savings of not having them on campus would be massive, and I think welcomed for most. Information costs very little nowadays - there's just no need for annual cost of it to be tens of thousands.
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Old 04-24-2020, 07:51 AM   #31
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My wife and I have been paying out of pocket for nearly all of our youngest son's on-campus college education. He's a senior this year. There's no need for it to cost this much.

The entrenched university establishment will fight to keep the gravy train they have, but the cost savings of not having them on campus would be massive, and I think welcomed for most. Information costs very little nowadays - there's just no need for annual cost of it to be tens of thousands.
Agreed, my daughter graduates from Stonehill this year for Early Education/ Spanish. She is the last of 2 and I am happy that my kids have no debt starting their professional lives (she will be on her own for her masters). Many colleges have lost their way and are more worried about marketing the college experience rather than the quality of the education.
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Old 04-24-2020, 08:28 AM   #32
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There's a good book that proposes a theory for the skyrocketing costs of college called "Weapons of Math Destruction." It, combined with Malcolm Gladwell's two "Revisionist History" podcasts on food services and endowments, make compelling cases.

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Old 04-24-2020, 08:53 AM   #33
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think, That was very interesting reading.

My husband is vice president and director of sales for a major food service management company. Their clients are mainly independent schools ( high schools.)
If you have not been into a private school dining room lately, you are in for a shock. What students and parents expect is mine boggling. So far, the sales season has not been affected by the virus. Schools are changing food service companies and looking forward to the future.
The owners of the company have stated to my husband that they have enough money to continue for at least 18 months.
However, they have received notification from one private school already stating that they will not be needing a food service company anymore. They have decided that the students should brown bag it.
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Old 04-24-2020, 11:32 AM   #34
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Agreed with Chris and Vita--we're glad that we could pay for our kids, but it's ridiculous of you think about the cost per hour of class time. In addition to the "experience", it's two layers of subsidies. First, undergrad tuition subsidizes professors' research. The profs spend 10 or twenty hours per week teaching in exchange for full time salaries. Second, in part because the first subsidy is so damn expensive, those paying full tuition subsidize those on scholarship. (I'm not complaining that some kids are on scholarship, I think all should have equal access).

I also agree with the "lost their way" comment, but in a different sense. As the schools have cranked their prices, they have put finances front and center of too many students' and parents' decisions on where they should go to school. For most (though not all), college is the gateway to a better career. When we make it less accessible to some, we erode the American Dream.
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Old 04-24-2020, 11:34 AM   #35
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think, That was very interesting reading.

My husband is vice president and director of sales for a major food service management company. Their clients are mainly independent schools ( high schools.)
If you have not been into a private school dining room lately, you are in for a shock. What students and parents expect is mine boggling. So far, the sales season has not been affected by the virus. Schools are changing food service companies and looking forward to the future.
The owners of the company have stated to my husband that they have enough money to continue for at least 18 months.
However, they have received notification from one private school already stating that they will not be needing a food service company anymore. They have decided that the students should brown bag it.
I often join teacher friends of mine at Brooks School and Groton School "for meetings" in the dining halls. Delish!

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Old 04-24-2020, 11:49 AM   #36
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I've long wondered why so many well-intentioned parents push their progeny to go to college, when there are viable alternatives.

You don't need a sheepskin to make a good living.

Learn a trade: become an electrician or a plumber for example.

Join an apprenticeship program: not only is the education free, but the apprentice gets paid while learning / working.
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Old 04-24-2020, 01:05 PM   #37
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I often join teacher friends of mine at Brooks School and Groton School "for meetings" in the dining halls. Delish!

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Just out of curiosity, do you have a preference? They use two different food service management companies and I’m wondering if you can tell.
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Old 04-24-2020, 02:50 PM   #38
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Just out of curiosity, do you have a preference? They use two different food service management companies and I’m wondering if you can tell.
I don't have the most...refined palate (or, really, mannerisms!), so I'm jazzed by just having multiple all-you-care-to-enjoy offerings that I don't have to cook!

That being said, there's something about the history of Groton that just makes me enjoy dining there, even if I don't fit in. At all.

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Old 04-24-2020, 03:14 PM   #39
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I can still eat regular public school cafeteria food. I don’t have a very refined palate either, LOL.
During my husband’s meeting today, they talked about the fact that there will be no more self-serve stations such as deli bars or salad bars. Schools are installing plexiglass around all the cashier stations. They were deciding where to put the hand sanitizing areas.They are also deciding between washable cloth masks or throw away masks. These are very strange times, indeed.
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Old 04-24-2020, 03:37 PM   #40
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I can still eat regular public school cafeteria food. I don’t have a very refined palate either, LOL.
During my husband’s meeting today, they talked about the fact that there will be no more self-serve stations such as deli bars or salad bars. Schools are installing plexiglass around all the cashier stations. They were deciding where to put the hand sanitizing areas.They are also deciding between washable cloth masks or throw away masks. These are very strange times, indeed.
Those are things I would never have considered, but I guess that's the state of things. I wonder if we'll ever go back? Have we just kissed the buffet as a restaurant option goodbye?! That might be sadder than missing my seniors' final high school events!!!

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Old 04-24-2020, 07:18 PM   #41
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It would be hard for colleges like UMAss to refund money and still pay these salaries! Good jobs at good wages!

UMass has 9 people making over $600,000 per year. Absolutely crazy!

Michael Collins Chancellor & SVP Hlth Sciences $ 1,096,430.75
Terence Flotte Exec Dep Chanc Provost & Dean $ 1,076,817.20
Matthew McCall Head Basketball Coach $ 827,000.40
Michael Green Vice Provost Rsch Strat Initia $ 741,960.24
Martin Meehan President, University of Mass $ 682,270.42
James Glasheen Exec VC Innovation & Bus Devel $ 672,837.20
Derek Lovley Associate Dean CNS $ 637,361.56
Walter Bell Head Football Coach $ 628,692.52
Mark Klempner Exec Vice Chancellor, UMBL $ 627,837.16
Where do I apply for the Executive Deputy Chancellor Provost Assistant?


Will my retirement pension be any less than $20,000 per month?

Maybe I should apply to Harvard? Harvard's endowment is over $40 Billion dollars!

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So the first lesson I hope we will learn from this crisis is that the common good IS also the individual good.
Quote:
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You'd have fit right into 1940 Germany with that sentiment.

Conversely, America was founded on the idea of the supremacy of the individual. Granted, we've deviated wildly from that founding premise as time has marched on.
Quote:
"In our nation, the priority was not on the individual, and what benefits him but on the common good—for the Volk—for Germany".
https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/650507?seq=1
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Old 04-24-2020, 10:11 PM   #42
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So the first lesson I hope we will learn from this crisis is that the common good IS also the individual good.

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Originally Posted by Chris M View Post
You'd have fit right into 1940 Germany with that sentiment.

Conversely, America was founded on the idea of the supremacy of the individual. Granted, we've deviated wildly from that founding premise as time has marched on.
Chris, my statement was an expression of concern for our fellow human beings. Here's an example. In the US we have a very large homeless population, both on the streets and in shelters. Why should we care about them? Aside from the obvious humanitarian reasons, it's because we are all socially connected one way or another. If we don't provide health care for homeless people and they become infected, eventually their illness will spread to us. Why should you care about COVID-19 in other countries? Because if you don't, eventually it will spread to your country. When the world is healthy, your chances of being healthy are higher.

Does that sound like naziism to you? In fact it's the opposite of naziism.

Getting to your second point, about America being founded on the supremacy of the individual, I don't think that history supports that. America was founded on the idea of a supreme race, the idea that one race of people could rob the land and resources of another race (referring now to all of the Americas), use genocide to finish them off, and enslave millions of people. All justified by racial superiority. That is frighteningly close to the Nazi claim of racial superiority justifying theft and genocide.

However, even if the United States were founded on this or that idea, that does not prevent us from evolving into a better society now. An understanding of history is a good place to start. When I was in school we learned about the Indians and Thanksgiving. Our teachers never mentioned what happened to all the Indians. That doesn't prevent us from learning about that today, just as you could learn what naziism actually is.
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Old 04-25-2020, 05:27 AM   #43
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The correct response to pandemics is to copy Japan. Each time a virus appears, their uniform demographic puts on a face mask, and goes about their business.
Sounds reasonable and logical. Precautions center around the most at risk and the rest of the herd gets to carry on with life.
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Old 04-25-2020, 05:33 AM   #44
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Congratulations ....... 3,000 posts
Who even notices that?!

Besides, 37% of my posts are about my new jetski (did you know I was getting one?!) that you've needled me on.

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Old 04-25-2020, 05:44 AM   #45
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Getting to your second point, about America being founded on the supremacy of the individual, I don't think that history supports that. America was founded on the idea of a supreme race, the idea that one race of people could rob the land and resources of another race (referring now to all of the Americas), use genocide to finish them off, and enslave millions of people. All justified by racial superiority. That is frighteningly close to the Nazi claim of racial superiority justifying theft and genocide.
The Declaration of Independence supports my claim on America's founding principles. Certain inalienable rights, not granted by rulers, but derived from our humanity. Those human rights aren't to be screwed with in theory.

As far as the supreme race talk. I can only chalk that up to something in your history, childhood likely, making it attractive to you to oddly insert that strange claim into the conversation.

Nazism puts the state/motherland first and the individual last. The supremacy of the individual turns that on its head. The smallest minority in the world is the individual.
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Old 04-25-2020, 07:44 AM   #46
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I am often shocked that “Yout’s” (My Cousin Vinny) invoke words like “Nazi” & “holocaust” with little or no understanding of what they truly mean to people. It is also important to remember that those “inalienable rights” you so proudly defend end when the interact and conflict with the inalienable rights of the majority. This is why we have laws preventing things like speeding, shoplifting, bank robbery, and in some states today, lack of social distancing.


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Old 04-25-2020, 12:43 PM   #47
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The Declaration of Independence supports my claim on America's founding principles. Certain inalienable rights, not granted by rulers, but derived from our humanity. Those human rights aren't to be screwed with in theory.

As far as the supreme race talk. I can only chalk that up to something in your history, childhood likely, making it attractive to you to oddly insert that strange claim into the conversation.

Nazism puts the state/motherland first and the individual last. The supremacy of the individual turns that on its head. The smallest minority in the world is the individual.
The founding of our country didn't begin with the Declaration of Independence. The direction of the country was set well before that, with the first arrival of Europeans in the Americas. When you elevate the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution to God-like status, you forget about the millions of people who were deprived of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness throughout all of American history.

Do you think that Naziism was really about Hitler's love of the motherland? That's problematical because (1) he wasn't German and (2) he utterly and completely destroyed Germany. The motherland ideal wasn't about Germany at all, it was about the insanity of one individual, his hunger for power, and his diabolical ability to convince millions of people that they were a superior race. Naziism was a cult that put one individual first. The motherland and antisemitism were just handy tropes for promoting a dictator.
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Old 04-25-2020, 02:47 PM   #48
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I am surprised that nobody, no organization, has filed suit to challenge the shut-down orders: if suits have been filed I'm unaware of the fact.

Rather than us bicker about what is right or wrong it would be best to submit the question to those best in a position to determine its legitimacy.
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Old 04-25-2020, 07:59 PM   #49
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I am surprised that nobody, no organization, has filed suit to challenge the shut-down orders: if suits have been filed I'm unaware of the fact.

Rather than us bicker about what is right or wrong it would be best to submit the question to those best in a position to determine its legitimacy.
It's not as bold as what you suggest but a lawyer in CT is suing Governor Ned Lamont over his executive mandate requiring people to wear face masks.

His filing alleges that the damage to his personal freedom caused by the order "far outweighs any theoretical public benefit" to being compelled to wear a mask or facial covering while in public.

His firm must be shut down and he's tired of watching Night Court reruns. He's clearly got too much time on his hands.
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Old 04-25-2020, 09:19 PM   #50
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Red face "Thanks" Clicked In Error...

Quote:
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The founding of our country didn't begin with the Declaration of Independence. The direction of the country was set well before that, with the first arrival of Europeans in the Americas. When you elevate the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution to God-like status, you forget about the millions of people who were deprived of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness throughout all of American history. Do you think that Naziism was really about Hitler's love of the motherland? That's problematical because (1) he wasn't German and (2) he utterly and completely destroyed Germany. The motherland ideal wasn't about Germany at all, it was about the insanity of one individual, his hunger for power, and his diabolical ability to convince millions of people that they were a superior race. Naziism was a cult that put one individual first. The motherland and antisemitism were just handy tropes for promoting a dictator.
Geesh...just one minute at Google rips-up the above diversion of our forum's COVID-19 topic:
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/conte...ar-i-1913-1919
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