WOW Trail Phase 3 Heating up...

[Woodsy]

Looks like a battle is looming for Phase 3 of the WOW trail... Seems like battling in court would be a waste of time and money for the Southdown folks as the rail property is state owned and Southdown was sold to the City with the premise of a Rail Trail. Doesn't sound like a win to me...

Perhaps they would be better served taking that war chest of $$ they raised to fight the trail, and use it to make the trail design acceptable as it runs through Southdown.

http://www.laconiadailysun.com/newsx...32-wow-boycott

Woodsy

[ITD]

Actually boycotting businesses for a purpose like this can be quite effective and is done a lot. That said, these types of trails always have detractors but usually end up very well done and become great assets to communities and abutters. If you don't want to be near something like this then do your homework and don't move near right of ways.

[Major]

I grew up in Laconia and now live in SD/LB. Even though I now live in SD/LB, I wouldn't want any more federal or state money be "invested" in the WOW trail. Let's be real, I drive by the WOW trail several times a day, and hardly ever see anyone on it. And if you read the police blotter, the WOW trail appears to be a popular place to buy drugs and to commit robberies. Couple that with the fact that it is inaccessible 5 or 6 months of the year make it a complete waste of money. Laconia should do what it has done best over the past decade, invest in Section 8 housing so we can attract the type of people it wants as residents. I heard/read somewhere that SD/LB generates $32M in tax revenue. What the heck, Laconia can just make us pay more.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Major

I grew up in Laconia and now live in SD/LB. Even though I now live in SD/LB, I wouldn't want any more federal or state money be "invested" in the WOW trail. Let's be real, I drive by the WOW trail several times a day, and hardly ever see anyone on it. And if you read the police blotter, the WOW trail appears to be a popular place to buy drugs and to commit robberies. Couple that with the fact that it is inaccessible 5 or 6 months of the year make it a complete waste of money. Laconia should do what it has done best over the past decade, invest in Section 8 housing so we can attract the type of people it wants as residents. I heard/read somewhere that SD/LB generates $32M in tax revenue. What the heck, Laconia can just make us pay more.

Section Eight housing is far worst than the WOW trail. Just take a look at the police blotter on 'The Project' on Blueberry Lane. 24/7! The weasels can walk through the woods and rob our homes on Wildwood shores. A couple of years ago residents complained of strong odors from the woods and it took police months to finally check it out! The found a big meth lab in the woods!
WOW trail is on the other side of the lake. Not sure where you got the idea that the WOW trail attract drugs.

[SAMIAM]

Seems to me that those millions could be put to better use than a seasonal walking trail. Phase one of the trail seems to be used very little except during perfect weather.

[Major]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

Section Eight housing is far worst than the WOW trail. Just take a look at the police blotter on 'The Project' on Blueberry Lane. 24/7! The weasels can walk through the woods and rob our homes on Wildwood shores. A couple of years ago residents complained of strong odors from the woods and it took police months to finally check it out! The found a big meth lab in the woods!
WOW trail is on the other side of the lake. Not sure where you got the idea that the WOW trail attract drugs.

Two seconds of research yielded this --

http://www.necn.com/news/new-england...377055721.html

[DickR]

Originally Posted by Major

... I heard/read somewhere that SD/LB generates $32M in tax revenue....

If the "M" is the standard abbreviation for "millia," Latin for thousand, then $32M would be barely anything. If the intent was to say $32 million, then I have to suspect what was "heard." Talking round numbers, if each property paid ten thousand per year in property tax, there would have to be 3200 properties so taxed for SD/LB to generate that much collectively. Whatever the total take is, how does the total tax take from SD/LB figure into the argument for or against the proposal?

[Major]

Originally Posted by DickR

If the "M" is the standard abbreviation for "millia," Latin for thousand, then $32M would be barely anything. If the intent was to say $32 million, then I have to suspect what was "heard." Talking round numbers, if each property paid ten thousand per year in property tax, there would have to be 3200 properties so taxed for SD/LB to generate that much collectively. Whatever the total take is, how does the total tax take from SD/LB figure into the argument for or against the proposal?

It is common practice to use "M" for million. Notwithstanding, you are correct, I was off by a factor of ten. See below, which is taken from an article about John Davidson --

Both communities now have over 600 property owners from many geographic areas who can call the Lakes Region “home”. Many are vacation home owners & semi-retirees and others are year round, permanent residents. Davidson’s ‘vision’ and hard work paid off immensely for the City of Laconia. Today both communities are valued over $114,000,000 by the assessor’s office and they contribute over $3.2 million annually to the City of Laconia’s tax revenue. That’s a lot of income which has helped the city construct a new police station, fire department, schools, parks and other amenities. Not only that but think of the economic impact these 600+ families have contributed to the Lakes Region. Many businesses have prospered because of these communities including general contractors, landscapers, lumber yards, furniture stores, boat, car & golf cart dealers, restaurants and even us REALTORS®…

Still, $3.2 million is nothing to sneeze at.

[Major]

My point is that the City has a spending problem, and looks to SD/LB as an important source of revenue to fund their "investments." In eight short years, my taxes have gone from $8K to $12.7K annually. Even with the tax cap, the City has a way of sticking it to the SD/LB residents.

[Woodsy]

Major...

I do agree with Laconia needing to look at Municipal Spending.... In 2009 the tax rate was $16.97 per thousand/assessed value. In 2017 the rate is $22.20 per thousand/assessed value. The tax rate has gone up $5.23 over 8 years or approx. .65/per thousand/per year.

However... SD/LB doesn't pay any more than any other property in Laconia when it comes to funding the city's projects! I pay the same $22.20 per thousand you do!

Woodsy

[Major]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Major...

I do agree with Laconia needing to look at Municipal Spending.... In 2009 the tax rate was $16.97 per thousand/assessed value. In 2017 the rate is $22.20 per thousand/assessed value. The tax rate has gone up $5.23 over 8 years or approx. .65/per thousand/per year.

However... SD/LB doesn't pay any more than any other property in Laconia when it comes to funding the city's projects! I pay the same $22.20 per thousand you do!

Woodsy

How do you explain our tax increase of 59% in eight years when Laconia's tax rate went up 31%? I'll tell you why, they assess properties at SD/LB at a higher rate. The planning board and city counsel view SD/LB as a cash cow, and don't face any ramifications since most of its residents are not Laconia residents.

[Woodsy]

No..... they do not assess SD/LB at a higher rate! Your property increased in value... The increase in value of the property, coupled with the increase in the tax rate gives you your 59%...

Go on the MLS and look.... the cheapest property for sale in SD/LB is a 1200 sq/ft condo for $235K. Not counting lots for sale.. I counted 12 properties that when averaged out (including the $235K property) equaled an average price of $436K... There are only 2 properties listed under $300K!

So while I am happy for you that you got in a good price... I don't feel bad for you or anyone else when your property increases in value!

Woodsy

[Major]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

No..... they do not assess SD/LB at a higher rate! Your property increased in value... The increase in value of the property, coupled with the increase in the tax rate gives you your 59%...

Go on the MLS and look.... the cheapest property for sale in SD/LB is a 1200 sq/ft condo for $235K. Not counting lots for sale.. I counted 12 properties that when averaged out (including the $235K property) equaled an average price of $436K... There are only 2 properties listed under $300K!

So while I am happy for you that you got in a good price... I don't feel bad for you or anyone else when your property increases in value!

Woodsy

Respectfully disagree. Built the house in 2008, so there wasn't any past history to draw from. The first year of full assessment, 2009, our taxes were $8,000. Given the real estate market at that time, our assessments and taxes should have gone down. Instead, they systematically went up.

I grew up here, and I have friends and family who own homes throughout Laconia. Our home and my neighbors' homes in SD/LB are assessed close to what we might be able to sell them for. I follow Vision Appraisal, and from what I can tell, family and friends outside of SD/LB are assessed 70-75% of sale values. I can provide you many examples.

I get your point, but I think they have their thumb on the scale with respect to SD/LB. Just my opinion.

[Woodsy]

Major...

The math is pretty simple....

In 2009 Laconia's tax rate was $16.97 per thousand assessed. So If you paid $8000 in taxes in 2009 your house was valued at approx. $471,500.
$8000/$16.97 = $471,420

In 2017 Laconia's tax rate is $22.20 per thousand assessed. So if your house value didn't change...
471.42 x 22.20 = $10,465.52 tax bill (31% increase)

So if your taxes have gone up 59% ($8000 x .59 = $4720) they jumped from $8000 to $12,720. So the difference lies in your appraised value.
$12,720/22.20 = $572,972 tax assessed value.... 21.5% increase in home value over the 8 years.

If you think you are being unfairly assessed, you should definitely appeal to the town... (I certainly would) My guess is with median average for sale in Southdown being $436K, you probably aren't going to win. Southdown/Long Bay is a victim of its own success.

PS... My condo in the Weirs is assessed at 90% value. Per the state laws.

Woodsy

[BroadHopper]

that moves to Laconia and complain, there are plenty of estate to move elsewhere!

Laconia was here long before SD/LB. So don't go telling Laconia what they can or can not do!

[Major]

Last time I checked, I am a resident of Laconia and have the same right as other residents to express my displeasure about City money going towards the WOW trail. Make no mistake, even if Federal and State (and private) monies are provided to construct the trail, Laconia will be obligated to pay for its maintenance.

My hope is that the WOW trail proponents take SD/LB's offer to re-route the WOW trail around the periphery of the development. Otherwise, it appears that the WOW trail will be wasting a lot of its capital in fighting the issue in court.

[Woodsy]

Why should they re-route the trail around a development that was sold to the city with the rail trail as part of the plan?

The state owns the right of way.... Not SD/LB.

Why not work with the WOW trail to pick out a nice fencing option?

Woodsy

[Major]

The incentive for the proponents of the WOW trail to work with SD/LB is to avoid costly litigation. Who is right or wrong really has little impact on how disputes are resolved. (Things like monetary resources, stomach for litigation, etc., have as much influence on litigation results.) The proponents on the WOW trail can spend a lot of their capital on litigation to prove that it has the right of way, or instead work with the residents of SD/LB to re-route the trail. We'll see what happens. At the end of the day, whether the trail is built or not won't have a lot impact on my life. I just think it's a colossal waste of money.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by Major

The incentive for the proponents of the WOW trail to work with SD/LB is to avoid costly litigation. Who is right or wrong really has little impact on how disputes are resolved. (Things like monetary resources, stomach for litigation, etc., have as much influence on litigation results.) The proponents on the WOW trail can spend a lot of their capital on litigation to prove that it has the right of way, or instead work with the residents of SD/LB to re-route the trail. We'll see what happens. At the end of the day, whether the trail is built or not won't have a lot impact on my life. I just think it's a colossal waste of money.

Sounds to me that you are saying that "Might makes right". Even if the WOW trail advocates are correct in that they have the proper clearance rights to build the trail, you are hoping to hit them with enough legal entanglements (costs) to stop them. Sounds like trail opponents are willing to expend a "colossal waste of money" to get their way, even if they are not in the right.

[Outdoorsman]

Originally Posted by Major

The incentive for the proponents of the WOW trail to work with SD/LB is to avoid costly litigation. Who is right or wrong really has little impact on how disputes are resolved. (Things like monetary resources, stomach for litigation, etc., have as much influence on litigation results.) The proponents on the WOW trail can spend a lot of their capital on litigation to prove that it has the right of way, or instead work with the residents of SD/LB to re-route the trail.

(unfortunately), that's how litigation works. It may be a colossal waste of money for the SD/LB owners, but spread across 600 units, the cost isn't that much. If the goal is to have a trail that people can enjoy, why can't the WOW trail folks consider re-routing the trail? It seems like a win-win.

What a disgusting group of "residents" at SD/LB.

If privacy was an issue, why on earth would you build/buy in a community such as SD/LB? It's not like they are building a highway around your home. It is a bike path/walking trail.

Instead of wasting money on litigation, BUILD A WALL. 30 feet high made of concrete should suffice!

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Major

My point is that the City has a spending problem, and looks to SD/LB as an important source of revenue to fund their "investments." In eight short years, my taxes have gone from $8K to $12.7K annually. Even with the tax cap, the City has a way of sticking it to the SD/LB residents.

When I was looking for property I stayed away from Laconia for that reason. I bought in Meredith and my taxes are reasonable.

[topwater]

Originally Posted by Major

I grew up in Laconia and now live in SD/LB. Even though I now live in SD/LB, I wouldn't want any more federal or state money be "invested" in the WOW trail. Let's be real, I drive by the WOW trail several times a day, and hardly ever see anyone on it. And if you read the police blotter, the WOW trail appears to be a popular place to buy drugs and to commit robberies. Couple that with the fact that it is inaccessible 5 or 6 months of the year make it a complete waste of money. Laconia should do what it has done best over the past decade, invest in Section 8 housing so we can attract the type of people it wants as residents. I heard/read somewhere that SD/LB generates $32M in tax revenue. What the heck, Laconia can just make us pay more.

Major, Do you know how many crimes have been reported from the walking trail to the ANY police department? I am not knocking your remark about crime because to an extent I believe it's true. Was just wondering if you or anyone else had any stats backing that up.

[Major]

Originally Posted by topwater

Major, Do you know how many crimes have been reported from the walking trail to the ANY police department? I am not knocking your remark about crime because to an extent I believe it's true. Was just wondering if you or anyone else had any stats backing that up.

More anecdotal. I read the police blog, and there have been several instances of individuals being arrested for drugs on the trail since its creation. (I referenced one assault in an earlier email.) It is pretty well known that a lot of drug activity occurs on the section between Messer Street and the library.

Anyway, from the comments, it appears that SD/LB is not winning the vote of popular opinion. I'm against it not necessarily because of my affiliation with SD/LB, but because I think it's a waste of money. Even if funding is available from federal, state and private sources to build phase III, the City will ultimately have to maintain it. I think our money could be better spent on other things.

[topwater]

I don't have a Dog in the fight, however I DO agree it is/was/and will be a total waste of money. Just another feel good moment. No facts here just a common sense approach..... Dollars spent on the WOW trail ( from where ever ) vs The amount of people who use it. Just Financially doesn't make sense. Could have built a glass bridge over Paugus Bay and really had a view.

[AC2717]

I Do not have a dog in the fight either, but I have proposed many times putting it on union ave with the businesses to generate foot traffic and use the already way to wide sidewalks then up lake street and down weirs blvd up the road to the weirs, most of this area having plenty of room for the space of a trial, it will generate much more use and be better for the town and all those involved, not to mention it will go right by the visitor center as well.

side note that will bring it right by my doorstep

[Major]

Originally Posted by topwater

Major, Do you know how many crimes have been reported from the walking trail to the ANY police department? I am not knocking your remark about crime because to an extent I believe it's true. Was just wondering if you or anyone else had any stats backing that up.

from May 2011 to April 2016, the Laconia Police Department received 132 incident calls concerning the WOW trail. Most incidents involve vandalism, intoxicated people, suspicious persons, hypodermic needles and assaults. Last year, one incident involved a tent city on the phase I section of the WOW trail, with some of the residents actually providing the WOW trail as their home address.

I encourage anyone concerned about their safety on the WOW trail to contact the Laconia Police Department. I hope this helps.

[belly_button_biter]

Originally Posted by ITD

Actually boycotting businesses for a purpose like this can be quite effective and is done a lot. That said, these types of trails always have detractors but usually end up very well done and become great assets to communities and abutters. If you don't want to be near something like this then do your homework and don't move near right of ways.

When a business sponsors the development of something the money comes from the people who do business with them.


I don't think they're very serious about boycotting the O Steak and Seafood. I see a lot of South Down Shores people in there when we dine there.

[thinkxingu]

This is where the law gets frustrating to me. If the SD properties were sold with a ROW--and ESPECIALLY if with the rail trail plans included--there shouldn't even be legal proceedings. If, on the other hand, the ROW was not disclosed, that's an issue.

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[Major]

Jeff, unfortunately, that's how litigation works. It may be a colossal waste of money for the SD/LB owners, but spread across 600 units, the cost isn't that much. If the goal is to have a trail that people can enjoy, why can't the WOW trail folks consider re-routing the trail? It seems like a win-win.

Thinking, I'm not sure when the rail trail was first proposed. The first units in SD/LB were built around 1985.

Anyway, I don't see much upside in debating the issue. I think we will all have to wait and see how it plays out. Either way, it won't be the end of the world if it's built or if it's not built. That said, I don't see either side giving in.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

This is where the law gets frustrating to me. If the SD properties were sold with a ROW--and ESPECIALLY if with the rail trail plans included--there shouldn't even be legal proceedings. If, on the other hand, the ROW was not disclosed, that's an issue.

While I agree that it's an issue, it would seem to me that the issue the SD folks have could be with the people who sold them the property. However, it appears that the ROW is on State Owned land, not on the actual property purchased? This is a classic problem. You buy a property looking forward to a quiet neighborhood and then you find out the abutting property is zoned commercial and they are about to build a new Rite Aid store. Bye bye quiet neighborhood. The reality is, buyer beware. It's up to you to dig into the area you are moving into. Maybe there is a toxic waste site a block away? The seller isn't required to tell you about problems in the surrounding area?

The typical action to getting caught out with unexpected problems is legal action. You may not have a leg to stand on but it doesn't mean you can't create a legal blizzard, especially if you band together with others who share your interest.

And, I can truly share the SD folks concern. I owned a property along the Merrimack in Hudson, NH. The deed provided a ROW for a walking path if the town ever got around to building it. I accepted the reality of it and decided if they did build it, I would push for a barrier (bushes?) to be constructed as well to provide a bit of separation from my property. It never came to pass but the possibility was there.

[Woodsy]

The original plans for SD way back in the 80's had the rail trail in the plans.... Now its coming to fruition and SD/LB is taking a NIMBY approach... Not too cool in my book but whatever, like Major said bury them with lawyers!

That being said.... it go really bad for SD/LB.

1st... any lawsuit could be rejected by a judge because of the state owned ROW and it was included in original plans... SD/LB ends up spending a bunch of money for nothing and may have to pay the WOW lawyers.

2nd.... Nuclear option... State plays hardball and doesn't renew lease to cross Railroad ROW... yup SD/LB lease that land. SD/LB loses water access, and loses a bunch of property value and $$$ spent. (The state is under no legal obligation to renew any lease for any reason)

IMHO, SD/LB should take the money they are going to use to fight the WOW trail and instead use it to make the WOW trail more acceptable to them (fence design, trail materials, shrubbery, landscaping etc)

Woodsy

[Greene's Basin Girl]

I live on a 4 acre wooded lot. I love it because it is so private. Our neighbor's are having 40 trees cut down on their lot. They can cut right up to our property line. So much for privacy!!! People move to the country from the suburbs and they still want the suburbs.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by Greene's Basin Girl

I live on a 4 acre wooded lot. I love it because it is so private. Our neighbor's are having 40 trees cut down on their lot. They can cut right up to our property line. So much for privacy!!! People move to the country from the suburbs and they still want the suburbs.

Neighborhoods would really be great if it weren't for the neighbors!

[joey2665]

Phase 1 and 2 are already along Winnisquam and Winnipesaukee River and DES obviously had no issues there so why would they with Pagaus Bay?


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[Major]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Phase 1 and 2 are already along Winnisquam and Winnipesaukee River and DES obviously had no issues there so why would they with Pagaus Bay?


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None or very little construction near the water. Anything near the water was already constructed and paved.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Major

None or very little construction near the water. Anything near the water was already constructed and paved.

Really? The paving and fencing was along the river prior to "construction " of the WOW Trail? News to me.


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[Major]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Really? The paving and fencing was along the river prior to "construction " of the WOW Trail? News to me.


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Very little of the WOW trail goes by the river. It crosses the river at the Messer Street Bridge and at the Fair Street Bridge. From the map, it appears that the WOW trail (phases I and II) abuts the water at the southern end of Lake Opeechee and along the eastern/southern shoreline of Winnisquam.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Major

Very little of the WOW trail goes by the river. It crosses the river at the Messer Street Bridge and at the Fair Street Bridge. From the map, it appears that the WOW trail (phases I and II) abuts the water at the southern end of Lake Opeechee and along the eastern/southern shoreline of Winnisquam.

Yes it does go along Opeechee and Winnisquam I have been down both phases so again the DES had no issues with these so I don't think they will be a stumbling block for phase 3. That will come from the abutting communities. Although I know someone mentioned Meredith Bay was against the trail but I know for a fact they have not taken any public or official opinion on the trail.


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[Major]

To the best of my knowledge, the only community that has made a public stand against the WOW trail is SD/LB.

[thinkxingu]

According to the article, the associations were instituted with the understanding that the path would be built? And now they'll not only burn their owners' and taxpayers' funds in litigation but maybe risk the continued ROW access? Very interesting case for sure.

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[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

According to the article, the associations were instituted with the understanding that the path would be built? And now they'll not only burn their owners' and taxpayers' funds in litigation but maybe risk the continued ROW access? Very interesting case for sure.

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I agree. I would think they would pick their fights very carefully because if they piss off the State, what's to stop the State from just cutting off their access to the waterfront? Then what? Moral of the story: Don't pull the lion's tail.

[topwater]

I believe everything will be shown very clearly on the maps or charts ( I'm so confused LOL ) that the State owns. This will be in court for some time. Good for south Down shores for sticking to their guns on this. As I have mentioned earlier IMO this is a TOTAL waste of money. Seems everyone is fine with it UNLESS it's in your backyard. Out of site...out of mind.

[SAMIAM]

The thought of a waterfront fence from Lakeport to the Weirs absolutely gives me the chills.
I don't understand how anyone who cares about the stewardship of our lakes would want to do that........but why stop there.
Lets go on to Squam.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

What's to stop the State from just cutting off their access to the waterfront?

Taxes?

Do you think the state and/or city of Laconia want to immediately decrease the value of every property in there by 10-20%? Additionally, if access was rescinded in what seemed to be a matter of spite it could give South Down a stronger position in the end (though at a higher legal cost).

[Major]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

Taxes?

Do you think the state and/or city of Laconia want to immediately decrease the value of every property in there by 10-20%? Additionally, if access was rescinded in what seemed to be a matter of spite it could give South Down a stronger position in the end (though at a higher legal cost).

I do not know/understand the legal ins and outs of the State's right of way. The land belongs to SD/LB, and there are big chunks of land east of the right of way. No matter the outcome, SD/LB residents are entitled access to their respective beaches, which are clearly outside of the right of way, on land owned by the SD/LB community.

It is my understanding from two separate sources that the WOW Trail powerbrokers are putting pressure on the railroad to shut it down between Lakeport and the Weirs. Insuring the safety of the WOW Trail users could be a very expensive proposition, and it isn't clear as to who is responsible.

[Woodsy]

Obv, the state limiting SD/LB waterfront access would be the nuclear option, not preferable to anyone. However, A tax devaluation would take years to see as its based on sales comps. I seriously doubt you would see a 20% reduction in values and a likewise reduction in Laconia's tax base.

The lawsuit, IMHO is fragile at best. The gist of the lawsuit is SD/LB are trying to tell the state what it can/cannot do with state owned property. That is a very slippery slope and a win by SD/LB would set a HUGE legal precedent that would ripple thru the state. I don't see any judge signing off on a private citizens association telling the state what it can or cannot do... I don't think the lawsuit will be allowed to go too far forward.

If this was an eminent domain lawsuit you would have a much better chance.

IMHO SD/LB would be better off using their $$ to negotiate an acceptable fence and path design.

Woodsy

[Woodsy]

here is a link that shows the RR ROW for those who want to see what is in question... you will have to zoom in on Paugus Bay. As you can see SD/LB/various yacht clubs owns very little of the waterfront and they have to cross the state RR ROW to get there....

https://www.axisgis.com/LaconiaNH/

Woodsy

[StardogChampion]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

here is a link that shows the RR ROW for those who want to see what is in question... you will have to zoom in on Paugus Bay. As you can see SD/LB/various yacht clubs owns very little of the waterfront and they have to cross the state RR ROW to get there....

https://www.axisgis.com/LaconiaNH/

Woodsy

The tax maps seem to indicate the RR is not a ROW but the land is owned by the state and there are several specific ROWs across the RR land indicated on the map. Otherwise, the RR would be drawn differently and the parcels not separated outside the corridor.

That's much different than the land being owned by various property owners along the route and the RR having a ROW.

So if the state owns the land and the properties along the RR have specific ROWs, then there isn't much anyone can do on either side. If the state did put up a fence it would have to have access to those ROWs. Given that it seems money better spent would be on both parties agreeing on the aesthetics/maintenance of access to ROWs/etc. Only winner here is going to be the lawyers.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by StardogChampion

The tax maps seem to indicate the RR is not a ROW but the land is owned by the state and there are several specific ROWs across the RR land indicated on the map. Otherwise, the RR would be drawn differently and the parcels not separated outside the corridor.

That's much different than the land being owned by various property owners along the route and the RR having a ROW.

So if the state owns the land and the properties along the RR have specific ROWs, then there isn't much anyone can do on either side. If the state did put up a fence it would have to have access to those ROWs. Given that it seems money better spent would be on both parties agreeing on the aesthetics/maintenance of access to ROWs/etc. Only winner here is going to be the lawyers.

I whole heartedly agree. Only the lawyers will make out on this issue in the end.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

The gist of the lawsuit is SD/LB are trying to tell the state what it can/cannot do with state owned property.

I disagree, I think SD/LB is asking the state to look a current, proven, use of the land, it's impact on the community/etc., and compare that with a proposed change that will have some unknown impact (IMO, you cannot argue "zero impact", every change has some impact).

Personally (IANAL), I think the very long delay on getting the trail built works in South Down's favor, it is like the inverse of Adverse Possession concepts. Yes, there was a stated plan for a trail when the ROW was granted, but after a certain amount of time (30 years!) goes by with no trail, and certain aspects of the community, and its draw for owners, develops around the fact that there is no trail/fence/access hindrance, you can understand why people are opposed to it.

It would be different, IMO, if SD were attempting to block access to a proposed emergency services road construction, or a similar thing that would have clear, proven benefit to the community at large. You also cannot deny some of the crime and other issues around Laconia, again, making resistance to easy access into the community understandable.

The WOW trail is at least partly being presented as something that will give "the people" freer access to the lakes/shoreline, and that is a noble cause, however the state effectively allowed the current situation where much of the shoreline is privately owned (and, not getting into side-debates about technical access to shorline areas, just saying that much of the property abutting the shore is privately owned). Trying to now compensate for selling off access by implementing a walking trail with undetermined impact on some communities is really not a balanced approach.

[jeffk]

I'm not sure a ROW for public use purposes has a time limit.

If it was for private use, say me using a property for access and never exercising it, maybe an argument could be made for forfeiting my access right.

I doubt the same would be true for public purposes which often stretch out over decades.

Further, the possible damages are speculative, possibly even unlikely. A well planned and tasteful path and fencing need not have significant impact on the adjacent properties. Other area on the WOW trail don't have problems with criminal activity. Unproven worries are not a basis for solid decision making.

If I lived there, I would certainly want a place at the table as decisions are made but I don't think NO! is a workable answer.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by jeffk

I'm not sure a ROW for public use purposes has a time limit.

If it was for private use, say me using a property for access and never exercising it, maybe an argument could be made for forfeiting my access right.

I doubt the same would be true for public purposes which often stretch out over decades.

Further, the possible damages are speculative, possibly even unlikely. A well planned and tasteful path and fencing need not have significant impact on the adjacent properties. Other area on the WOW trail don't have problems with criminal activity. Unproven worries are not a basis for solid decision making.

If I lived there, I would certainly want a place at the table as decisions are made but I don't think NO! is a workable answer.

I agree with Jeff. As a long time resident of Long Bay the best plan of action would be for all affected communities to come together with the City and WOW Trail organization to come up with a plan acceptable to all. Otherwise, as usual the lawyers make out and it costs the taxpayers and residents more money in the end. The SD/LB people could have the potential in paying legal fees on both ends in the way of special assessments and increased property tax.

[Major]

Originally Posted by jeffk

Other area on the WOW trail don't have problems with criminal activity. Unproven worries are not a basis for solid decision making.

I guess 132 incidents over a six-year period doesn't rise to the level of significant criminal activity. If it was your street that had 132 incidents of assault, vandalism, drug use, tent cities, etc., I think you'd have a different opinion.

Publicly, the Laconia Police will take the position that the WOW Trail has minimal criminal activity. Privately, they will tell you otherwise. The WOW Trail is an avenue of egress to crimes occurring in downtown Laconia. Crime is definitely prevalent. SD/LB concerns about crime are not unproven or unfounded, but based on facts.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Major

I guess 132 incidents over a six-year period doesn't rise to the level of significant criminal activity. If it was your street that had 132 incidents of assault, vandalism, drug use, tent cities, etc., I think you'd have a different opinion.

Publicly, the Laconia Police will take the position that the WOW Trail has minimal criminal activity. Privately, they will tell you otherwise. The WOW Trail is an avenue of egress to crimes occurring in downtown Laconia. Crime is definitely prevalent. SD/LB concerns about crime are not unproven or unfounded, but based on facts.

I would like to see the stats before and after the trail. Before the WOW Trail the criminal activity took place on the rail road tracks anyway. I have first hand knowledge as my home and several other were broken into in Long Bay and the criminal walked down the tracks to get in and the same way out and I have witness drug exchanges behind my home in LB in a parking area below my home late evenings and early mornings

[Woodsy]

The whole purpose of a Rail Trail is to separate people from vehicles as much as possible. They are hugely successful in other parts of NH and many, many other states!

Rerouting the rail trail to city streets just accommodate some private development seems silly to me and sets a dangerous precedent. Especially when that private development was sold to the city with the rail trail as part of the plan... This is a case of NIMBY pure and simple.

The winners here will be the lawyers. The reality is, the general public isn't going to feel bad for people who own homes in a wealthy gated community who want to limit public access to publicly owned land. SD/LB will ultimately lose the lawsuit, but like the speed limit it will cause some serious divisions. It already is and that is kind of sad.

Woodsy

[Major]

Jeff, to quote a great American presidential candidate "at this point in time what difference does this make." Whether crime was more or less prior to the WOW Trail has no impact on what it is now. We know that between 2010 and 2016, a six year period, there were 132 reported incidents that required police investigation. Some were very serious. My suspicion is that crime was less prior to the WOW Trail since the use of opioids has exploded the last several years. However, this is just a guess.

Woodsy, you think SD/LB is a "wealthy" community? I agree it's very nice, but for the most part the condos are very modest and most of the homes are modest. No one is going to confuse SD/LB with Governor's Island or Grouse Point for that matter. The primary reason why SD/LB is gated is because the residents like to drive golf carts. That's one of the reasons why the roads were never turned over to the City.

[jeffk]

I would suggest that there may be more questionable activity in parts of the trail that go through some areas of Laconia but not others just like there is more crime in general in some areas of Laconia rather than others. If the trail is fully completed one day will the crime in Laconia transfer to Meredith just because a trail connects them? I rather doubt it. Do criminals in Laconia make a habit of driving over to South Down? It's not all that far. I suspect they don't. They prefer to stay on their own turf and in areas that are not as wide open where their activity might be seen. South Down is pretty wide open and not easy to hide in. I suspect the people there know their neighbors and would quickly report any strangers hanging around. It wouldn't be a welcoming area for criminals and they would know it.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Major

Jeff, to quote a great American presidential candidate "at this point in time what difference does this make." Whether crime was more or less prior to the WOW Trail has no impact on what it is now. We know that between 2010 and 2016, a six year period, there were 132 reported incidents that required police investigation. Some were very serious. My suspicion is that crime was less prior to the WOW Trail since the use of opioids has exploded the last several years. However, this is just a guess.

Woodsy, you think SD/LB is a "wealthy" community? I agree it's very nice, but for the most part the condos are very modest and most of the homes are modest. No one is going to confuse SD/LB with Governor's Island or Grouse Point for that matter. The primary reason why SD/LB is gated is because the residents like to drive golf carts. That's one of the reasons why the roads were never turned over to the City.

It was Joey not Jeff who made the crime comment and you validated my point. You can have all the suspicion you want but there is no trail as of yet in SD/LB and I have been broken into and witnessed many drug interactions. I seriously doubt the trail will cause and increase as the area is extremely accessible via the rail tracks and the codes to the gates are the worst kept secret in Laconia. My point being crime really is not an arguing point not to have the trail go through SD/LB

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by joey2665

My point being crime really is not an arguing point not to have the trail go through SD/LB

So then your position is that since there is already crime no concern should be given to changes that might INCREASE crime? If I have misinterpreted your comment please clarify, thanks!

[Major]

Originally Posted by joey2665

It was Joey not Jeff who made the crime comment and you validated my point. You can have all the suspicion you want but there is no trail as of yet in SD/LB and I have been broken into and witnessed many drug interactions. I seriously doubt the trail will cause and increase as the area is extremely accessible via the rail tracks and the codes to the gates are the worst kept secret in Laconia. My point being crime really is not an arguing point not to have the trail go through SD/LB

Sorry for the misquote Joey. I've lived full time in SD/LB since 2008, and part time since 2001. I have to admit, I've seen sketchy people from time-to-time at the basketball court near the entrance of South Down late at night. However, I am not aware of ANY crime in SD/LB. I'm sure there have been instances, such as your break-ins, but for the most part, SD/LB is a crime-free community. I feel extremely safe.

Much like politics, I don't think either side is going to win over the other side. From my perspective, I hope funding for Phase III never materializes. I think the WOW Trail's $5-10 million estimate is absurdly low. There are issues with the stretch between Pickerel and Perch Ponds, as well with navigating under the Weirs Beach Bridge. Who knows, maybe the litigation will force a compromise. Stranger things have happened.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Major

Sorry for the misquote Joey. I've lived full time in SD/LB since 2008, and part time since 2001. I have to admit, I've seen sketchy people from time-to-time at the basketball court near the entrance of South Down late at night. However, I am not aware of ANY crime in SD/LB. I'm sure there have been instances, such as your break-ins, but for the most part, SD/LB is a crime-free community. I feel extremely safe.

Much like politics, I don't think either side is going to win over the other side. From my perspective, I hope funding for Phase III never materializes. I think the WOW Trail's $5-10 million estimate is absurdly low. There are issues with the stretch between Pickerel and Perch Ponds, as well with navigating under the Weirs Beach Bridge. Who knows, maybe the litigation will force a compromise. Stranger things have happened.

Absolutely agree with the costs and potential construction pit falls at Perch and Pickerel Ponds. Just for interest sake pass by the parking lot underneath prides point late at night you will be surprised by what you can see. I have been a part time resident since 2006 but moving on now to a different location, its getting too crowded in there for me. Incredible the amount of new homes being built there.

[Major]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Absolutely agree with the costs and potential construction pit falls at Perch and Pickerel Ponds. Just for interest sake pass by the parking lot underneath prides point late at night you will be surprised by what you can see. I have been a part time resident since 2006 but moving on now to a different location, its getting too crowded in there for me. Incredible the amount of new homes being built there.

I will definitely check out the parking lot. Good luck on your move. Sorry to lose you as a neighbor.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Major

I will definitely check out the parking lot. Good luck on your move. Sorry to lose you as a neighbor.

Thank you very much, the were a lot of pros and cons to consider. I will be around, my ex has a home in SD

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by jeffk

I'm not sure a ROW for public use purposes has a time limit.

Statistically speaking, I don't think it has a time limit either. It would not be to the state's benefit to put auto-expiration clauses on ROW grants, or similar exceptions based on future use potential.

However, like many things legal, events over time often cause things to be reevaluated and for parties to realize that language was not specific enough, other precedents or decisions in tangential lawsuits come into play, etc.

SD/LB has changed a lot in character over time. Look at some of the early buildings vs. later ones, it appears, to me, that it started as more of a simple/affordable community and morphed over time into one that contains more and more higher-valued properties. Some of those property owners may have built elsewhere or chosen to alter their plans had they anticipated a 30 year old dormant easement to suddenly be put to use. I am not saying that fully justifies the opposition, but it does impact things (IMO).

When we purchased in South Down (2006), I do not recall seeing any clauses, deed restrictions, etc. that mentioned this ROW existing and being earmarked for a public trail and associated fences to be built through the community. Should potential buyers have been made aware of how the common area property, and the community at large, could be impacted? Are there other precedents in similar circumstances?

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

... When we purchased in South Down (2006), I do not recall seeing any clauses, deed restrictions, etc. that mentioned this ROW existing and being earmarked for a public trail and associated fences to be built through the community. Should potential buyers have been made aware of how the common area property, and the community at large, could be impacted? Are there other precedents in similar circumstances?

Being a non lawyer you can take my opinion for what it's worth but since the public trail is not an encumbrance on any South Down property, there is no reason you would have seen it on any of your property documents. It is related to the STATE property. Most people wouldn't build near railroad tracks to begin with but the bet here was that the railroad in NH was dead and eventually the tracks would get torn up. Oops.

Sometimes it's not what can happen on YOUR property that you need to be aware of; it's what can happen on your NEIGHBOR'S property. Suppose a neighbor's property was zoned commercial (yours is not) and poof, suddenly they sell and a business is being built in your back yard and there is not a lot you can do about it except maybe to get some buffering put in. Unless you really dug into the real estate situation in the area, you probably would never see it coming. Most of us just aren't that careful. I think that is what is happening here.

[joey2665]

When we purchased in South Down (2006), I do not recall seeing any clauses, deed restrictions, etc. that mentioned this ROW existing and being earmarked for a public trail and associated fences to be built through the community. Should potential buyers have been made aware of how the common area property, and the community at large, could be impacted? Are there other precedents in similar circumstances?[/QUOTE]

When I purchased in 2006 in SD before moving to LB, my broker provided me with copies of the original declaration along with the SD by-laws. The ROW is in there but also my broker discussed it with us before signing our purchase contract. Your broker at the time should have made you aware or at least provided all the HOA documents

[Woodsy]

I think the due diligence unfortunately falls on the buyer...

The buyer(s) in SD/LB probably knew about the RR ROW, as it is a physical landmark. I seriously doubt that most buyers were aware or were made aware that the RR ROW extends to the water for most of the shoreline, and that property did not belong to SD/LB. The only way to know would be to look at the plot plans/tax map for SD/LB that I listed above. I am sure no RE Agent would point that out and possibly lose a sale. Its a pretty crappy situation for sure!

I can see SD/LB taking issue with the fencing, I wouldn't want a 6' high chain link fence there either. However that's a negotiation, not a lawsuit. Especially where there is some very nice low post & beam fencing in other areas of the WOW trail.

In the winter, the state allows snowmobiles/cross country skiers/hikers etc. to use the RR ROW as a connecting corridor trail. Public use/access utilizing the RR ROW thru SD/LB is already approved by the state. I am sure that was a surprise to some unsuspecting buyers too. So arguing against further public access is probably pretty futile as the state has ALWAYS allowed it.

Woodsy

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

SD/LB has changed a lot in character over time. Look at some of the early buildings vs. later ones, it appears, to me, that it started as more of a simple/affordable community and morphed over time into one that contains more and more higher-valued properties. Some of those property owners may have built elsewhere or chosen to alter their plans had they anticipated a 30 year old dormant easement to suddenly be put to use. I am not saying that fully justifies the opposition, but it does impact things

There are two sides to that coin: Some people who like the idea of a trail may have decided to buy there hoping it would get built.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

There are two sides to that coin: Some people who like the idea of a trail may have decided to buy there hoping it would get built.

Good point

[Dad sold the C * C]

I have watched this back and forth, pro and con on this thread and know this is a very decisive issue. I have experience with the Minuteman bike trail that runs from Bedford MA, thru Lexington, Arlington and ends at Alewife in Cambridge.

First off, as others have said, many people did not want the trail built, or saw a need for it. Now, it is a selling point for neighborhoods all along the trail and it is a major recreation and commuter way and has spurred multiple Retail stops along the way.

Whether we do not want the trail in our back yard or think it is a waste of money, we have to understand that many people want these trails and are willing to pay for them. Yes this means in most cases we all pay for them through our taxes.

The Minuteman trail ends near the middle of Bedford MA, but the old railroad bed continues to Concord and a National Wildlife refuge. Concord and the Feds have little desire for the paved trail to continue in their jurisdiction, so it was a surprise to some of us when it was proposed at town meeting to enhance the trail and pave it the rest of the way to the Concord line. I personally had an issue with dumping a lot of people on a busy road with only mountain bikes and walkers able to continue along the old dirt RR bed.

I was on a committee that could block the primary proposed Funding from even reaching the Town Meeting floor; but we realized that many people wanted this so we voted to allow it to go to Town Meeting. There was discussion at TM but it passed with 2/3rds vote. It is still a long process as funds were approved for partial design and that has been going on for over 5 years.

Is it expensive, YES, but I think the trail will be good for the area like these trails have been across the region and the country. My advice to the 2 communities in opposition to the trail would be to save your money and use it to work with the WOW trail for better fencing, screening and access options. We have done this with other municipal projects and it can be done with benefits to everyone. It could be as simple as covering the extra cost for a darker or better style fence.

[Redbarn]

They should allow golf carts on the trail, might sway some opinion, being able to drive from south down the weirs to Meredith on a cart sounds like fun. Kind of shrink the community's and tie them together. Just a thought.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Redbarn

They should allow golf carts on the trail, might sway some opinion, being able to drive from south down the weirs to Meredith on a cart sounds like fun. Kind of shrink the community's and tie them together. Just a thought.

That's what they do in many over 55 villages in Florida, such as The Villages that is a huge community where the main mode of transportation is the golf cart, but in this case I do not think it would be very safe for the walkers, cyclists and runners

[Redbarn]

Originally Posted by joey2665

That's what they do in many over 55 villages in Florida, such as The Villages that is a huge community where the main mode of transportation is the golf cart, but in this case I do not think it would be very safe for the walkers, cyclists and runners

Yeah I knew that would be the argument against. But l would argue I am more dangerous on a bicycle going twice as fast as golf cart to a pedestrian than a golf cart.
I would also say like you said in Florida it is very common to mix carts with everything else, even on the street with cars. Even here south down, Meredith Bay, Grosse point, they mix the two. The cart path from Meredith Bay to Akwa mixes the two at a very steep grade and is still safe for pedestrians.

Don't get me wrong I know it will never happen but if the wow trail had to happen this would make it cool. Fun to talk about.

(side note, still wish the tracks had a pedestrian trolley)

[Major]

Grouse Point has steep grades too. When my parents lived there, a 12-year old girl died rolling a golf cart down a steep embankment. Kind of off topic, but golf carts, while fun, can be dangerous on steep hills.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Redbarn

Yeah I knew that would be the argument against. But l would argue I am more dangerous on a bicycle going twice as fast as golf cart to a pedestrian than a golf cart.

I would also say like you said in Florida it is very common to mix carts with everything else, even on the street with cars. Even here south down, Meredith Bay, Grosse point, they mix the two. The cart path from Meredith Bay to Akwa mixes the two at a very steep grade and is still safe for pedestrians.



Don't get me wrong I know it will never happen but if the wow trail had to happen this would make it cool. Fun to talk about.



(side note, still wish the tracks had a pedestrian trolley)

I think it would be awesome to take the golf cart to the weirs or Meredith. Wishful thinking.


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[AC2717]

I just wanted to be the 100th post on this thread

[Winopt]

Why does the WOW trail have to be seasonal? It would make a great snowmobile trail as well.

[baygo]

Originally Posted by Redbarn

They should allow golf carts on the trail, might sway some opinion, being able to drive from south down the weirs to Meredith on a cart sounds like fun. Kind of shrink the community's and tie them together. Just a thought.

I own and operate a restaurant that abuts the SD/LB community. My first summer the residents were coming by way of golf cart. Word of this spread by way of many channels and created additional interest in owning a home there. I'm approved by the city to offer groceries as well. Just as I was about to per sue that someone decided to start putting obstacles in the way of the golf carts. I dropped my interest in groceries.

I wouldn't be surprised by it if the trail gets built and bikers encounter big rocks placed on the trail. I think the trail organizers seriously need to consider this in their maintenance and upkeep projections.

[jeffk]

I would think this is not just a maintenance issue. If someone was injured due to people deliberately placing rocks on the WOW trail it could become a criminal issue.

[baygo]

Originally Posted by jeffk

I would think this is not just a maintenance issue. If someone was injured due to people deliberately placing rocks on the WOW trail it could become a criminal issue.

You are absolutely right, terrible things could come from, and easily be classified criminal from, some maliciously placed boulders. A reality is: how do you catch the culprit? Yes people could get hurt and a lot of money would be wasted on removing the boulders in the interim.

In a previous post I mention a potential alternative of bringing the trail down Elm Street to Parade Road and up to Severance Rd, then down to the tracks on what I referred to as the snowmobile trail through the state forest. That post was apposed by two seemingly legitimate views. The first states that the state would be foolish to allow easement. I've since remembered that the snowmobile trail I referenced is actually a class 6 Town Rd. I would hope that is something to work with. The second states that the WOW trail federal funding only applies to construction on the rail road track. To this I encourage we take a closer look and get creative for another source of funding for an alternate portion of the trail.

A large percentage of the alternate trail I propose is already paved therefore there would not be as significant of an expenditure to create a rideable surface. If the calculation turns out that the expense to connect Severance back to the tracks is more than what is saved with the alternate route pre-paved surface, and the trail organizers find a shortfall from the government funding, I have this solution. Work out a deal with us to create the WOW Welcome Center on the corner of Severance and Parade. We have the land and I'm certain that if Alan Beetle and I sat down at a table and talked about it, we could come up with a strategy that gave this WOW welcome center a foundation for profit through food and beverage. Those profits or a potion of, can be dedicated to the trail to offset the expense.

Please understand that to help make this happen, we would likely lose some of our realestate. I would hope that in appreciation of said sacrifice the SD/LB community would find a permanent way for golf cart access to The Mystic Meadows.

There we have it. The trail gets built, SD/LB don't have to deal with a fence and other concerns. Trail riders have a great welcome center and nobody crashes into a boulder.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by baygo

You are absolutely right, terrible things could come from, and easily be classified criminal from, some maliciously placed boulders. A reality is: how do you catch the culprit? Yes people could get hurt and a lot of money would be wasted on removing the boulders in the interim.

In a previous post I mention a potential alternative of bringing the trail down Elm Street to Parade Road and up to Severance Rd, then down to the tracks on what I referred to as the snowmobile trail through the state forest. That post was apposed by two seemingly legitimate views. The first states that the state would be foolish to allow easement. I've since remembered that the snowmobile trail I referenced is actually a class 6 Town Rd. I would hope that is something to work with. The second states that the WOW trail federal funding only applies to construction on the rail road track. To this I encourage we take a closer look and get creative for another source of funding for an alternate portion of the trail.

A large percentage of the alternate trail I propose is already paved therefore there would not be as significant of an expenditure to create a rideable surface. If the calculation turns out that the expense to connect Severance back to the tracks is more than what is saved with the alternate route pre-paved surface, and the trail organizers find a shortfall from the government funding, I have this solution. Work out a deal with us to create the WOW Welcome Center on the corner of Severance and Parade. We have the land and I'm certain that if Alan Beetle and I sat down at a table and talked about it, we could come up with a strategy that gave this WOW welcome center a foundation for profit through food and beverage. Those profits or a potion of, can be dedicated to the trail to offset the expense.

Please understand that to help make this happen, we would likely lose some of our realestate. I would hope that in appreciation of said sacrifice the SD/LB community would find a permanent way for golf cart access to The Mystic Meadows.

There we have it. The trail gets built, SD/LB don't have to deal with a fence and other concerns. Trail riders have a great welcome center and nobody crashes into a boulder.

I'm not totally familiar with the routes proposed, but this sounds as if anyone who doesn't want the path near them just needs to threaten a lawsuit and come up with another option. Isn't the point of the path to be along the lake?

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[jeffk]

Originally Posted by baygo

You are absolutely right, terrible things could come from, and easily be classified criminal from, some maliciously placed boulders. A reality is: how do you catch the culprit? Yes people could get hurt and a lot of money would be wasted on removing the boulders in the interim.

In a previous post I mention a potential alternative of bringing the trail down Elm Street to Parade Road and up to Severance Rd, then down to the tracks on what I referred to as the snowmobile trail through the state forest. That post was apposed by two seemingly legitimate views. The first states that the state would be foolish to allow easement. I've since remembered that the snowmobile trail I referenced is actually a class 6 Town Rd. I would hope that is something to work with. The second states that the WOW trail federal funding only applies to construction on the rail road track. To this I encourage we take a closer look and get creative for another source of funding for an alternate portion of the trail.

A large percentage of the alternate trail I propose is already paved therefore there would not be as significant of an expenditure to create a rideable surface. If the calculation turns out that the expense to connect Severance back to the tracks is more than what is saved with the alternate route pre-paved surface, and the trail organizers find a shortfall from the government funding, I have this solution. Work out a deal with us to create the WOW Welcome Center on the corner of Severance and Parade. We have the land and I'm certain that if Alan Beetle and I sat down at a table and talked about it, we could come up with a strategy that gave this WOW welcome center a foundation for profit through food and beverage. Those profits or a potion of, can be dedicated to the trail to offset the expense.

Please understand that to help make this happen, we would likely lose some of our realestate. I would hope that in appreciation of said sacrifice the SD/LB community would find a permanent way for golf cart access to The Mystic Meadows.

There we have it. The trail gets built, SD/LB don't have to deal with a fence and other concerns. Trail riders have a great welcome center and nobody crashes into a boulder.

WOW! (no pun intended) So the way to avoid your terrorist boulder placers is to adopt your plan? Moving boulders isn't a casual effort and should be detectable. How about we make every effort to find out who they are and throw them in jail and put their mugs on posters along the trail. "Look out for and report these thugs!".

To be clear, I really don't care if an alternative trail route is decided on. If all are happy about it, great. I applaud offering this alternative solution.

I REALLY DON'T like making decisions based on veiled threats and intimidation. Court fights are one thing. That is how society works out it's differences. Threatened boulders in the trail are a whole different thing. It's like walking into a discussion with a blatantly obvious weapon with the clear intention of intimidating the other people in the room. Cowering before criminals is NOT a good plan to deal with the situation. Talk about a WRONG message.

[laketrout]

Originally Posted by baygo

I own and operate a restaurant that abuts the SD/LB community. My first summer the residents were coming by way of golf cart. Word of this spread by way of many channels and created additional interest in owning a home there. I'm approved by the city to offer groceries as well. Just as I was about to per sue that someone decided to start putting obstacles in the way of the golf carts. I dropped my interest in groceries.

I wouldn't be surprised by it if the trail gets built and bikers encounter big rocks placed on the trail. I think the trail organizers seriously need to consider this in their maintenance and upkeep projections.

Its all Liability insurance Ray. Your place is awesome (Groceries and cold beverages even bags of ice- that would be great), and even better in my golf cart. The one condo closest to you in the SDS development shut it down and put the rock in front of the fence, at least thats what I heard.

[joey2665]

This morning for the first time I ran the complete WOW Trail. Full disclosure I was a resident of Long Bay for 10 years and pretty much against the trail. It was extremely nice with several access points and the split rail fencing towards the Belmont line was esthetically pleasing. Very well kept and only saw 4 pieces of trash along the whole way. If done correctly it may not be as bad as most think.


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[trfour]

Originally Posted by joey2665

it may not be as bad as most think.


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If 'most' thought it was bad, the Wow Trail never would have been started in the first place...

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by trfour

If 'most' thought it was bad, the Wow Trail never would have been started in the first place...

Speaking about "most" as far as those opposing the next phase including those in South Down and Long Bay.

Also have mixed feeling about suing the DOT. Going to make future cooperation with the DOT and city of Laconia when other issues in those communities arise and their assistance is needed



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[baygo]

Wouldn't it save a lot of time money and aggravation if they were to alter the route to come up Elm Street, then bypass south down shores on Parade Road and turn down Severance Road to pick up the snowmobile trail that goes through the state forest back down to the lake. Everybody wins��

[Major]

Originally Posted by baygo

Wouldn't it save a lot of time money and aggravation if they were to alter the route to come up Elm Street, then bypass south down shores on Paris Road and turn down Severance Road to pick up the snowmobile trail that goes through the state forest back down to the lake. Everybody wins😀

SD/LB has offered similar solutions. The WOW Trail organizers won't consider alternative routes. However, they are financially motivated to stick to their guns since the Federal funding only applies to rail-to-trail type projects.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by baygo

Wouldn't it save a lot of time money and aggravation if they were to alter the route to come up Elm Street, then bypass south down shores on Paris Road and turn down Severance Road to pick up the snowmobile trail that goes through the state forest back down to the lake. Everybody wins😀

If I was the State, I don't think I would want to set the precedent of not using state land when it can be legally used. It could lead to lots of headaches in the future.

[joey2665]

Baygo that is an excellent viable solution and everyone wins in the end. I would think all parties would consider this alternative instead of wasting time in court and money on attorneys


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[Red apple]

While I think some of the ideas to "go around" SDS/LB are great and even could work from the research I did the rails to trails fund must be on railroad tracks. So even if they would consider it would have to be self funded. I lived in SDS for four years and was on the board. At the time I left the stance was to fight it at whatever cost but as I read through this I see a spilt stance on the homeowners. Someone in SDS should do what's needed to put a vote together on the yearly meeting coming up so all the homeowners can vote to on what to do and if needed how much money to spend. Just my 2 cents and that about all it's worth.


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[thinkxingu]

Nicely worded letter. I especially like the subtle reminders about the state-owned ROW and development plan requirement for the path.

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[joey2665]

Sorry I completely disagree. The alternative plans do not eliminate all the bridges only one and no matter the route the federal funding is absolutely needed. All of the routes contain many obstacles it is certainly not as easy as your making it sound.


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[jetskier]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Sorry I completely disagree. The alternative plans do not eliminate all the bridges only one and no matter the route the federal funding is absolutely needed. All of the routes contain many obstacles it is certainly not as easy as your making it sound.


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Actually, there are two to three bridges of consequence on the frontage route. There is a small one at SD, which is not of significant interest. The two big ones are Chattle Cove and Pickerel Cove. The required bridges would be approximately 1,000 ft and 800 ft in length....and how do you deal with the trestle at the Weirs? There is no room for a train and a trail there.

I have been on the snowmobile trails through the woods and reviewed the maps....nothing onerous.

Jetskier

[joey2665]

Jetskier your views are extremely clouded by the fact that you are a south down resident and do not want the trail through the community. Conveniently forgetting the fact that the trail and ROW were all agreed to in the original community plan. Yes I am a former Long Bay resident, yes as long as it is constructed properly and is esthetically pleasing I am all for the trail and finally yes I do currently have ownership interest is south down property. It is also my opinion that long term the trail will have a substantial positive impact not only Laconia but all the communities along the trail.

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Jetskier your views are extremely clouded by the fact that you are a south down resident and do not want the trail through the community. Conveniently forgetting the fact that the trail and ROW were all agreed to in the original community plan. Yes I am a former Long Bay resident, yes as long as it is constructed properly and is esthetically pleasing I am all for the trail and finally yes I do currently have ownership interest is south down property. It is also my opinion that long term the trail will have a substantial positive impact not only Laconia but all the communities along the trail.

I think that this discussion has reached larger heads...I am just presenting the facts. I have no control over what the WOW Org decides to do...and you now live in Meredith Bay not South Down. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. I would suggest that we simply leave it at that.

Jetskier

[beantownbaby]

^ haters gonna hate