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08-13-2021, 06:54 AM | #1 |
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08-13-2021, 07:14 AM | #2 | |
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When the higher values across the board are used the tax rate will go down, maybe not as much as we would like. |
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08-13-2021, 08:33 AM | #3 |
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08-13-2021, 08:37 AM | #4 |
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Unintended consequences
New Hampshire, especially the lakes region, has an interesting economy. Having owned property on the big lake and married into a family that's owned two lake front cottages for over a century, I can state that the taxes never go down --and increase steadily. The general attitude is "let's tax the rich summer people from out of state". Lake front property commands a high price and lots of wealthy people are happy to invest in it bulldoze it, and construct their McMansions. This brings the value of my 1940's unheated, uninsulated, wooden cottage (on a nearly unbuildable lot) to a level higher than my modern 6 bedroom home in Ohio.
The only time the taxes went down was when we had the property professionally appraised (using the Town's appraisal firm). After over-ruling some of the appraisal, we did get a reduction in the increase the Town was seeking. This lasted one year; next year, right back up. Fair enough. We sold out (for less that we paid) and are now throwing money at the "family" property. Now, the "unintended consequences" -- and there are several. First of all, many of the rich out-of-staters care nothing about maintaining the area. Examples include deforestation (just pay the fine), and dumping lots of fertilizer on their lake-adjacent manicured lawns. Locals generally are more concerned with maintaining the lakes and general area. Those who are wealthy enough to own large McMansions on the lake frequently spend little time there. I know of a couple beautiful new places that would see occupants for a couple weeks each year. Other than taxes, not much money spent locally. When a large part of an economy relies on out-of-state people dropping their money in the summer, it means that the rest of the economy must take up the slack during the rest of the year, Hence an annual boom-bust cycle that prunes out restaurants, retail, and anything else that can't sustain itself through the lean months. An insufficient labor force is yet another manifestation of the problem. People tend to want jobs that allow them to live all year long and not just during the tourist season. Relying on college students and imported foreign workers is not an optimal solution, as demonstrated by the many posts on this forum. The solution would seem to be a transition to "more residents; fewer transients". Certainly keep some tourist trade, leveling it out over the seasons. But encourage year-round residents with their year-round money to spend. Perhaps it's time to abandoned the mythical "no income tax in New Hampshire" [but plenty of property, sales, excise, food, etc., taxes] and develop a balanced tax system. It would be nice if more local people could afford to live year-round on (and near) the lake, rather than reserving these properties for the summer people. Rant over. I've got to finish packing for tomorrow's trip to the lake. Sorry to see lots of my favorite restaurants are gone. At least Lyons Den and Ellacoya made it though the winter. Also glad Pops has enough workers to remain. |
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08-13-2021, 08:51 AM | #5 | |
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08-13-2021, 09:08 AM | #6 |
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Increasing Property values do not increase your taxes. The exception is if your property increases in value more than everyone else in town, then it will have an effect, or vice versa.
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08-13-2021, 09:41 AM | #7 |
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I was raised in Ohio. Went back a few years ago for a reunion. My take away was I don't want to ever go back again. Real estate prices, I think the average house in Ohio is somewhere in the area of $89,000. I will continue to pass through on my yearly trek to California.
You do not have to let the assessor into your house, however you will have little leverage to combat the assessment. They may just as well decrease the assessment due to condition or increase it if there has been a complete kitchen renovation of $75,000 +/-. When living on Cape Cod some complained of their tax increase. But were told that when 3 years later their taxes would be probably less than the others that had been reassessed since. 1/3 of the properties were reassessed yearly. Somehow the house in MA has increased in square footage. As for increasing summer income for business how would the businesses fare if that didn't occur. That small winter income would be yearly. As for fertilizer many owners are opting for gluten types and I do think that the present fertilizers have discontinued the phosphorous and maybe lowered some nitrogen. I have now tried a product called D.I.O.S. to control weeds etc. It may have enough nitrogen to do the lawn some good. |
08-13-2021, 09:48 AM | #8 |
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NH Property tax is determined by multiplying the assessment by the town tax rate.
Check your town website (assessor) for the tax rate. Example: Moultonborough Year 2020 Town: 2.11 County: 1.15 School: 2.09 State Ed.: 1.78 Total: 7.13 tax rate Your current assessment can probably be found on your town website , as well. If your town has tax/gis map, go there and plug-in your address in the search box. Click on your site, then click on the Documents and links, then click on property card, and assessment is there. |
08-13-2021, 10:15 AM | #9 | |
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08-13-2021, 12:48 PM | #10 |
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California's Prop. 13
Maximum of 1.3% of the cash selling price with slight annual increase allowances. Value goes up or down, doesn't matter. I know CA makes up for this in MANY other ways.
I still don't think any Govt. entity should be allowed to control the demographics of it's populace by pricing people out of their homes.... When the town leaders get tired of their great unwashed, increase taxes and get the better bathed! The current value of homes in NH has increased all-across-the-board. An $85,000 shack, valued a few years ago, is worth a lot more today.
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08-13-2021, 01:09 PM | #11 | |
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If everyone's assessment went up by, say the same 20%, no final tax bill would change as ITD noted. The amount raised by taxes it determined my Town and School district votes, not by the total valuation of properties in town. Alan |
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08-13-2021, 01:48 PM | #12 | |
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Again ... town tax = tax rate X assessment |
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08-13-2021, 03:42 PM | #13 | |
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That said, assessing isn't an exact science. However, things happen that even the assessors cannot explain, like in the case of Moultonborough last year they changed the depreciation tables drastically and with no explanation as to why. And then you get to the various boards that budget and spend money. Not a lot of business acumen being expended on trying to manage conservatively, especially in towns with property tax rich lakefront. Tax and spend is alive here as well. |
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08-13-2021, 03:59 PM | #14 | |
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It is tax rate per 1000. numerical tax rate/1000 X assessment = tax |
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08-13-2021, 06:20 PM | #15 |
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Yes. You would then need to go through the process to get that assessment corrected... and that would require the entry into your home.
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08-13-2021, 06:30 PM | #16 | |
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Our household size has dropped, and our house square footage has increased. If we had built the same size as we did in the 1940s, or even smaller to adjust to the lower number of people in the household... our assessment would be relatively lower. |
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08-13-2021, 06:35 PM | #17 | |
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08-13-2021, 06:43 PM | #18 |
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Assessments:
A S S E S S I N G S TA N D A R D S B OA R D Reference Manual for Selectmen,Assessors,and Taxpayers Understanding NH Property Taxes T H E O F F I C I A L N E W H A M P S H I R E A S S E S S I N G R E F E R E N C E M A N U A L https://www.revenue.nh.gov/mun-prop/...asb-manual.pdf Also, How much sympathy is there for the crazy property values and limited inventory! A Moultonborough property from the neighborhood I left three years ago (all are public documents). On Long Island in Moultonborough in my former neighborhood: Sold on 05/17/2018 for $347,000 per town records; Registry of d Deeds Book 3388 Page 242. So that there is no semantics issue: tax stamp value = $15/$1000 of sales price Carroll County registry of deeds: real estate transfer tax stamp for this property: $5205 at $15/$1000 sales price, then, this property sold in 2018: 5205000/15 = $347,000 Same property with some limited upgrades sold in 5 days in 2021 for $689,000 Asking price was $650,000 which I thought at the time was crazy! https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/.../pid_41884556/ Same property Sold 08/02/2021 Carroll county registry of deeds : Book 3606 Page 498; tax stamp:$10,335 $10,335 = $15/$1000 x sales price or sales price = $10,335 x $1000/$15 = $689,000 Or , $10,335 = $.015 x where x is sales price; $10,335/$.015 = $689,000 How is an assessor going to handle this! All property values have gone up, for whatever reasons, we are all familiar with. Maybe it is not assessments that should attacked, but tax rates, and how they come about! |
08-13-2021, 07:44 PM | #19 | |
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08-13-2021, 07:49 PM | #20 | |
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The bottom line will always be the voting at town meetings. |
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08-14-2021, 07:32 AM | #21 | |
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The town doesn't vote on the county budget, nor School Ed. (not local school). The voters don't decide the vote on the county budget, the county delegation does. If you think the State Ed. rate is a gimmick to the local school rate then are you familiar with the "Claremont decisions" by the NH Supreme Court and towns like Moultonborough required to be "donor towns" because of the decisions? Apparently not. I can assure you Moultonborough, and other donor towns, don't think it is a gimmick, but an abomination and a rip-off. Using Moultonborough as an example: The town budget is a warrant article in the warrant that is a "rubber stamp" of a vote. Most folks have never gone to the public hearings before town meeting to discuss, and don't have a clue on the warrant article vote. The local school budget is not approved at the annual town meeting, but at the annual school district meeting. Usually different attendance, as most aren't as concerned about the local school budget, for some reason. https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...signatures.pdf Statutorily, the town Annual Reports come out prior to town meeting and are available at town meeting. The annual report has a detail by line items of the current proposed budget and the last budget. https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...rt_for_web.pdf Floor motions can be made to change amounts in the warrant article, including to zero, as some of us have done. Statutorily, no new adds (warrant already published, and articles need prior notice/ publication in the warrant). Bottom line is .... try not paying the tax. |
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08-14-2021, 08:38 AM | #22 |
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To me there are two issues one the amount of taxes one has to pay and two relative fairness. I lived in the Bay area many years ago and my house was taxed much higher than my neighbors for the same house due to the tax base set by last selling price. By now since the prop was 1978 there is huge disparity between what houses are taxed
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08-14-2021, 10:19 AM | #23 |
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I think I explained county rate and State Education rate in my post. I shouldn't have to reexplain it.
It since there has been no ''donor town'' since the first Lynch Administration, really not an issue for those paying attention. And what you are describing for the local town and school, is by all means a town vote process... not a State Legislative process. Bottom line is you agreed to the system when you purchased property in NH, since the State Constitution was not recently ratified and no one on this forum was here before 1784. |
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08-14-2021, 11:05 AM | #24 |
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This morning on two instances I was behind cars from DC with license plates that read...Taxation without Representation".......which is what the Mayor of Dc and some others are bitching about. And she is trying to get Congress to make DC a state...God forbid !! But it struck a chord....here in the lakes region lots of property owners are paying the tax bills without any representation. They cannot vote. A simple solution is to have a special voters list for just town, school, and town meeting business. Will never happen, as the "voting" residents will not allow others to have a say. Just pay..!
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08-14-2021, 11:50 AM | #25 | ||||
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May 20, 2021 — Officials say return to donor-receiver formula would be a 'failed ... rejected the donor town system in 2011 and should do so again now,” ... https://www.wmur.com/article/nh-prim...akers/36492595 Quote:
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I knew in 1974 when I bought my first property that I had to pay taxes to Moultonborough. When I became a resident in 1996 I knew I could now, vote on town issues. Also knew/know non-residents cannot legally vote. Moultonborough taxpayers pay much less than most other towns, even with crazy sales and assessments, and I'm very happy about that fact ... not conjecture. The constitution became effective June 2, 1784, when it replaced the state's constitution of 1776. So what? Are you trying to point out: State Constitution - Form of Government Part 2, Form of Government, New Hampshire State Constitution. [Art.] 5. [Power to Make Laws, Elect Officers, Define Their Powers and Duties, Impose Fines and Assess Taxes; Prohibited from Authorizing Towns to Aid Certain Corporations.] On January 5, 1776, the Congress of New Hampshire voted in Exeter to establish a civil government, and specified the manner and form that government would have. The Congress ratified the Constitution at the urging of the Continental Congress. The 1776 Constitution did not contain a Bill of Rights, nor was it submitted to the people of New Hampshire. The constitution was the first constitution ever ratified by an American commonwealth. I'll repeat the bottom line ... try not paying your taxes ... resident or not! |
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08-14-2021, 01:05 PM | #26 |
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08-14-2021, 01:12 PM | #27 |
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08-14-2021, 01:57 PM | #28 |
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Redistribution of SWEPT was ended in the 2005 HB2 trailer to the 2005 HB1 Budget bill.
In 2011, under Lynch-O'Brien, the law was changed again to place a HARD CAP on the fund. You can find that on NH Transparency or within the bills themselves. |
08-14-2021, 02:45 PM | #29 | ||
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2005 HB2 http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legi...05/HB0002.html Is this your argument? You do realize bills/laws do change over time? Also, is this what you mean by Transparency? https://www.nh.gov/transparentnh/ How do you explain the following, and much more? "The New Hampshire state budget for 2022-2023 replaces a targeted property tax relief fund with a $100 million cut to the statewide education property tax (SWEPT). SWEPT, a state tax that is retained locally by towns and cities, offsets the amount of funding that they receive from the New Hampshire Department of Education for their public schools." https://reachinghighernh.org/2021/06...ed-properties/ "But the question over how to structure the tax, known as SWEPT, continues to fuel debates in New Hampshire." https://newhampshirebulletin.com/202...ding-solution/ No offense, I'm done with this thread. Dealing with 2021 and moving forward is tough enough. |
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08-14-2021, 03:44 PM | #30 |
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You posted it yourself..."SWEPT, a state tax that is retained locally by towns and cities". It isn't collected by the State and redistributed, it is a gimmick in the funding used as an offset to what the State must provide.
You made my case. |
08-14-2021, 04:31 PM | #31 | |||
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Join Date: Jun 2021 A day in infamy! |
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08-14-2021, 04:44 PM | #32 |
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And it isn't the date that you chose to purchase property in NH?
SWEPT isn't redistributed and has a hard cap... What the voters in each town and school district decide among themselves is not a State level issue. If you are unhappy with your property taxes - and most everyone is regardless of the amount - attend and vote the meetings. If you're not a resident of NH... sorry, I don't see a future that option exists in. |
08-14-2021, 05:56 PM | #33 | |||||
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https://newhampshirebulletin.com/202...ding-solution/ What part of that is difficult to comprehend? The original issue was the four rates of the the town tax, and that the state School Ed. and County were not, and are not voted on by the town voters. That is still fact, no matter how much is tried to be "swept" aside. Quote:
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I also attend every Moultonborough Select Board business meeting, and annual town meeting, and annual school district meeting. Do you? I'm still not unhappy with Moultonborough taxes; quite the opposite. You can read? Quote:
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https://www.nhti.edu/course/reading-comprehension/ |
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08-14-2021, 06:44 PM | #34 |
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I read extremely well, but realized that you are not the only reader.
And since you attend, you must realize that as adults, we do not always get our way... sometimes we must bend to the will of the majority. If I couldn't accept that, I would simply move. |
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08-14-2021, 06:56 PM | #35 |
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Have a nice trip and Godspeed!
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08-14-2021, 08:48 PM | #36 |
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I'm not leaving. I am not upset with the situation.
I have never felt the property tax unfair, nor have I ever expected that the town voting... or any voting for that matter... would always go my way. |
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