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Old 08-01-2020, 02:22 PM   #1
SailinAway
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Default "The single best way to defeat the disease"

Finally Trump tweeted yesterday: "The single best way to defeat the disease is personal responsibility ... socially distance, wear a mask when you cannot avoid crowded places or socially distance, and wash your hands as often as possible."

Way too little, way too late, after 4.67 million cases and 156,000 deaths. Is there ANY number of deaths that would persuade the government to enact a federal mask mandate?

Right now we stand at 52 times the number of people who died on 9/11. That's obviously not enough for a national mask mandate, so how many deaths will it take?

Does the government just not care how many people die, as long as our precious individual freedom to share our virus with others is not impinged?
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Old 08-01-2020, 02:35 PM   #2
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From another / different thread on the same subject.

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Originally Posted by ishoot308 View Post
This has been beaten to death!

Please give it a rest...

Dan
You should completely drop the mask idea and focus on the rubber underpants mandate question and make everyone traveling with a hot spot, from a hot spot location into New Hampshire comply with wearing them.


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Old 08-01-2020, 02:42 PM   #3
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Agreed with above... We’re still discussing this topic? I’d rather see people complain about speaker and shoreline erosion than this old song and dance again.

It’s played out.
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Old 08-01-2020, 03:15 PM   #4
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We’re still discussing this topic? I’d rather see people complain about speaker and shoreline erosion than this old song and dance again.
Why I post something like this: to have a thoughtful conversation with people who ARE interested in the topic. This is a COVID-19 topic that greatly interests me. If it doesn't interest you, I urge you to open a shoreline erosion thread. I promise not to try to muzzle you in your thread.
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Old 08-01-2020, 05:38 PM   #5
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Question Because...Censorship?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailinAway View Post
Finally Trump tweeted yesterday: "The single best way to defeat the disease is personal responsibility ... socially distance, wear a mask when you cannot avoid crowded places or socially distance, and wash your hands as often as possible."

Way too little, way too late, after 4.67 million cases and 156,000 deaths. Is there ANY number of deaths that would persuade the government to enact a federal mask mandate?

Right now we stand at 52 times the number of people who died on 9/11. That's obviously not enough for a national mask mandate, so how many deaths will it take?

Does the government just not care how many people die, as long as our precious individual freedom to share our virus with others is not impinged?
Because a national mask mandate isn't a cure?

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Dr. Simone Gold published a thread of tweets (below) explaining what happened to them, and asked why “social media company employees with no medical degree or clinical experience are censoring the perspectives of practicing physicians?” https://www.kusi.com/exclusive-dr-si...-was-censored/
The Frontier-Doctors' new website:
https://americasfrontlinedoctorsummit.com/
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Old 08-01-2020, 06:07 PM   #6
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Because a national mask mandate isn't a cure?



The Frontier-Doctors' new website:
https://americasfrontlinedoctorsummit.com/

Of course, it's posts like this that validate SailinAway's persistence.

We've all seen a ton of data by now that show masks are extremely effective in reducing transmission. Some folks may not like/wear masks for personal/political reasons, but it's absurd to question their efficacy at this point.

We've also seen a ton of misleading "experts" cited by ApS.

It's incredibly disappointing that so many people seem completely unable to learn something new, even as the data against their beliefs grows into a mountain.
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Old 08-02-2020, 09:57 AM   #7
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Why say “precious individual liberty” with such seeming sarcasm? Is there a more apt adjective? No one needs government to tell them to wear a mask. If someone wants to wear one, they can.


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Old 08-02-2020, 10:53 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife View Post
Why say “precious individual liberty” with such seeming sarcasm? Is there a more apt adjective? No one needs government to tell them to wear a mask. If someone wants to wear one, they can.


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My cynical use of "precious individual liberty" was intentional. Americans stand out against other countries for their insistence on 100% individual freedom even if it hurts others or hurts the country. They use a simplistic understanding of the Constitution to justify this. This is an aberrant and juvenile understanding of freedom. It baffles people in other countries where "patriotism" includes concern for the common good and willingness to give up a small amount of personal freedom to protect others.

It's beyond me why some people think they should have the freedom to spread COVID-19 to others. Unless you get tested frequently, you don't even know whether you have it, so if you go into a store without a mask there's no way you can truthfully claim you're not spreading the virus. The suggestion has been made repeatedly in this forum that vulnerable people like those over 60 should just stay home---i.e., give up their Constitutional freedom to circulate freely---so that others (who mistakenly think they're not vulnerable) can go around without a mask. In other words, their freedom to spread the virus is more important than my freedom to go out in public and my freedom to live. This is beyond absurd.

This battle of "my freedom versus your freedom" arises in a society that has not taken care to educate people about civic responsibility beginning in childhood. You can't reverse social narcissism later in life; it becomes more entrenched as people feel justified in hurting others to hold onto inconsequential freedoms like not wearing a mask. That's right: compared to not killing other people by spreading the virus, wearing a mask is an inconsequential freedom. I don't like wearing a mask. I like infecting innocent people far less.

My version of patriotism is loving my country enough to want to see it survive!

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Old 08-02-2020, 07:20 PM   #9
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It might be beyond your understanding, but the vast majority of freedom-loving Americans understand the concept of individual freedom. Your position is an arguable one just not the majority one by a long shot. By virtue of that alone, it’s disingenuous to describe a differing position as absurd or beyond absurd. A tiny percentage of infected people die from the virus. No one kills anyone by spreading the virus. People getting infected by others is a byproduct of living life, not a sinister goal of people who don’t want to wear masks. Finally, the vast majority of Americans don’t care what people from other countries think of them or of America. They have their cultures, we have ours, and there’s a reason people who immigrate to the U.S. choose to come here.


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Old 08-02-2020, 07:59 PM   #10
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Default Oh boy..

Oh boy, here we go again.🙄

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Old 08-02-2020, 08:14 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife View Post
It might be beyond your understanding, but the vast majority of freedom-loving Americans understand the concept of individual freedom. Your position is an arguable one just not the majority one by a long shot. By virtue of that alone, it’s disingenuous to describe a differing position as absurd or beyond absurd. A tiny percentage of infected people die from the virus. No one kills anyone by spreading the virus. People getting infected by others is a byproduct of living life, not a sinister goal of people who don’t want to wear masks. Finally, the vast majority of Americans don’t care what people from other countries think of them or of America. They have their cultures, we have ours, and there’s a reason people who immigrate to the U.S. choose to come here.
In response to your points,

(1) Happily, we're just 92 days from finding out whether my notion of freedom and patriotism is the majority view. It's been a painful four years, but I feel my spirits lifting a bit each day as the moment of truth approaches.

67% of Americans now always wear a mask outside their home: https://fortune.com/2020/07/26/the-s...sks-is-now-67/

And 79% support a national mask mandate. https://thehill.com/homenews/coronav...k-mandate-poll

That is a majority of people who care enough about their country and other people to wear a mask.


(2) The "sinister goal" of people who refuse to wear masks is to claim a trite freedom for the sake of argument while putting people around them at risk unnecessarily. On a scale of 1 to 10, how onerous is it really to wear a mask? I rate it a 1.

(3) Getting infected by others is a by-product of life? So is walking in front of a bullet your neighbor fires out his window. So is getting hit by a drunk driver. Hence we have laws to prevent careless behaviors that put others at risk.

(4) "No one kills anyone by spreading the virus." This is obviously false. 157,000 Americans have died. They all caught the virus from someone. If you're carrying a lethal weapon (a gun, a virus) and you don't take care to contain it, people die.

(5) "The vast majority of Americans don’t care what people from other countries think of them or of America." I care, because we have a lot to learn from how other countries manage their affairs successfully (as in providing healthcare for everyone) and how they view the US. Many Americans care about how other countries view us because they see themselves as part of a global community and know that we have to act in concert with all other countries to defeat the current major threats to our survival.

(6) Believe me, very few people are choosing to immigrate to the US right now, for a long list of reasons. The US has more or less no standing in the world today. We have entirely lost our moral, economic, and political might. We are no longer a beacon for immigrants, a model of democracy, a leader for social justice, or anything else.
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Old 08-02-2020, 08:51 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by SailinAway View Post
In response to your points,

(6) Believe me, very few people are choosing to immigrate to the US right now, for a long list of reasons. The US has more or less no standing in the world today. We have entirely lost our moral, economic, and political might. We are no longer a beacon for immigrants, a model of democracy, a leader for social justice, or anything else.
Where did you get this laughable statistic? Very few people choose to immigrate to America now?
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Old 08-02-2020, 09:42 PM   #13
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(1). It might have been a painful four years for you for reasons I won’t pretend to understand, but it’s been a glorious four years for me and hundreds of millions of others. My spirits are lifted daily also, but at the prospect of four more years.

You revert to the emotional canard about “caring”. If someone disagrees with you, you’re the one who “cares”. I suppose the rest of us will just not reach your level of virtuous self-regard.

(2). There is no numeric scale or spectrum of freedom. It’s not “Live free or die, more or less, or die.” People who don’t wear masks are refusing to do so, they’re declining to do so.

(3). Laws don’t prevent careless behavior. They criminalize it. Your analogies are apt, and made my point. If you want to live in the metaphorical bubble wrap, then avoid your neighbors windows and don’t drive or walk in the street. Most people accept the risks of life.

(4). Obviously is an overused adverb. What appears obvious to you might not be obvious to others, as is the case here. A virus is not a weapon, it’s a microbe. There is no intent behind people getting infected.

(5). I’m sure that you’re proud for caring. Countries with socialized medicine don’t provide health care. The taxpayers do. There is no Constitutional right to health care or health insurance. In this country, we cherish self-sufficiency and private charity, not government redistribution. There is no such thing as a global community. That term is an oxymoron. Countries can help each other of course, but the national interest is and must always be primary.

(7). I’ll choose not to believe you. The U.S. remains the beacon of freedom it has been for centuries for myriad and indelible reasons. Social justice is another made-up, meaningless term that makes people feel better about their perceived virtue.

You should cheer up and stay proud of your country. We live in the best of times. Enjoy the freedom we have to debate and fight for that freedom. I can tell you’re not in the sunset of people who cower at conflict, who feel “uncomfortable” with disagreement and retreat to “safe spaces” when their sensitivities are triggered.

Thanks for being civil and engaging.




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Old 08-02-2020, 11:36 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife View Post
The national interest is and must always be primary.
Just one question that I'm genuinely curious about. I assume you feel an allegiance to your family? Perhaps your town? Your state? And clearly your country. What about your continent---do you feel allegiance to North America? What about the Western Hemisphere? If Martians attacked the Earth, would you join the Earth Allegiance Forces and fight back? What if Alpha Centauri tried to take over the Solar System? Would you feel allegiance to the Solar System?

My question is, how have you determined where to draw the line for your allegiance? How did you decide that your allegiance extends from your family to your nation, and no further than that?

„Wenn man eine große Lüge erzählt und sie oft genug wiederholt, dann werden die Leute sie am Ende glauben.“ — Adolf Hitler

P.S. "Global community" in quotation marks has 123,000,000 Google results.
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Old 08-03-2020, 12:30 AM   #15
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Validquestion. I don’t have a family as I’m single but here’s my best 12:30 AM response to the rest: Continents and hemispheres and planets are defined by land mass. Nations are defined by man-determined borders and organization by government, as are states, municipalities, towns, counties, and villages. No one is a citizen of a continent or hemisphere, hence i wouldn’t refer to it as “my continent” or “my hemisphere.” Instead I would say “a” or “the” continent. Being a domiciliary of a town or city, and a citizen of a state or country, is what undergirds an allegiance to them. If NH were at war with MA I admit it would be tough to choose sides. Lol. If Martians were to attack Earth, that choice would be easier.

P.S. Finding a nonsense term on a Google doesn’t make it sensical. I just Googled ain’t and sure enough ....

P.P.S. I need help with the German. I know und and I think I know glauben but I don’t know the rest.


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Old 08-03-2020, 12:31 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife View Post
(1). It might have been a painful four years for you for reasons I won’t pretend to understand, but it’s been a glorious four years for me and hundreds of millions of others.
Just one more question. These hundreds of millions of happy people of whom you speak. The population of the US is 328 million. About how many of those do you figure have had a glorious four years?

Some people you should probably take out of your calculation:

--Immigrants: 45 million
--Nonwhites: 79 million
--People infected with COVID-19: 4.75 million
--People who died of COVID-19: 157,000
--People living below the poverty line: 40 million
--People who did not vote for Trump in 2016: 66 million
--People without health insurance: 27 million
--People who lost their jobs during the pandemic: 30 million

Let's see . . . doing some quick math . . . that makes about 292 million people who haven't had a glorious four years, which leaves . . . hold on . . . 36 million people who HAVE had a glorious four years.

Maybe you're referring to hundreds of millions of people in other countries?
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Old 08-03-2020, 12:59 AM   #17
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Validquestion. If Martians were to attack Earth, that choice would be easier. . . . I need help with the German. .
Now, why would you defend the Earth against a Martian invasion? What exactly would your stake be in that fight?

What you need to do is take take a trip into outer space. Perhaps you will enjoy this trip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=992RHtY6yrM

Translation of the quote: "If you tell a big lie and repeat it often enough, people will end up believing it." According to Hitler, small lies didn't have much impact. They had to be whoppers.
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Old 08-03-2020, 05:08 AM   #18
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Default Hey!

You people got any more of that stuff?
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Old 08-03-2020, 05:50 AM   #19
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Question You Mean...?

The anti-American propaganda parts?

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Old 08-03-2020, 07:33 AM   #20
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The anti-American propaganda parts?

I’ll take I hate America and I feel guilty for being Caucasian for 600$ Alex!
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Old 08-03-2020, 07:56 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by SailinAway View Post
Just one more question. These hundreds of millions of happy people of whom you speak. The population of the US is 328 million. About how many of those do you figure have had a glorious four years?

Let's see . . . doing some quick math . . . that makes about 292 million people who haven't had a glorious four years, which leaves . . . hold on . . . 36 million people who HAVE had a glorious four years.

Maybe you're referring to hundreds of millions of people in other countries?
Of course you realize that your calculations are ridiculous! Most of the people you cite fall into the several categories so you are double, triple or more, counting the same people. (Sort of like the way they count Democrat's votes)

I am happy with the current efforts to support and improve the military, reduce the illegal influx, support police and the rule of law, reduce regulations on business, improve the economy, increase employment for all, and support the Constitution.

I look forward to another GLORIOUS 4 years!
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Old 08-03-2020, 08:02 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SailinAway View Post
Just one more question. These hundreds of millions of happy people of whom you speak. The population of the US is 328 million. About how many of those do you figure have had a glorious four years?

Some people you should probably take out of your calculation:

--Immigrants: 45 million
--Nonwhites: 79 million
--People infected with COVID-19: 4.75 million
--People who died of COVID-19: 157,000
--People living below the poverty line: 40 million
--People who did not vote for Trump in 2016: 66 million
--People without health insurance: 27 million
--People who lost their jobs during the pandemic: 30 million

Let's see . . . doing some quick math . . . that makes about 292 million people who haven't had a glorious four years, which leaves . . . hold on . . . 36 million people who HAVE had a glorious four years.

Maybe you're referring to hundreds of millions of people in other countries?
WOW, never seen math done like that before,,,

You have a wonderful potential career in politics (either party)

And sorry there is no way, NO WAY to point the finger of blame at one party or president for the current state of the country or the world. It is a much more complex set of conditions that got is to where we are.

If all were as simple as you would have us believe, then the 8 years under the last president should have fixed everything, and yet overall it only worsened, and significantly under his watch.

So any expectations about what the next election will do for us is highly debatable.

Clearly there are some very different visions of what a best America was, is or should be.
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Old 08-03-2020, 08:20 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by SailinAway View Post
"If you tell a big lie and repeat it often enough, people will end up believing it." .
And thats how (in part) we ended up in todays mess.

The media and politicians have no shame, no integrity, and no concern for the impact they cause. And thats ALL media and ALL politicians I see.

The biggest news of the morning today, will the president ban Tik Tok, or will Microsoft "save" it. Seriously,,, How is this even important to ANYONE.

Forget about covid, eradicate facebook, tik tok, twitter and you will reduce the dissemination of bad information and dare I say,,,"fake news" and you will probably save far more lives.
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Old 08-03-2020, 08:35 AM   #24
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Default Zzzzzzzzzzzzz

Isn’t this topic dying a very slow death? Please wake me up when it’s over......
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Old 08-03-2020, 08:53 AM   #25
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Question Exiting Time?

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Isn’t this topic dying a very slow death? Please wake me up when it’s over......
Shouldn't a thread that mentions Trump five times be considered "political"?
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Old 08-03-2020, 09:06 AM   #26
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Shouldn't a thread that mentions Trump five times be considered "political"?
I would certainly think so.....
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