Most Broken Rule

[jrc]

I'm just back to work after 9 days boating at the lake. All and all it was a great week. Boat traffic was heavy on the weekends. My guess is that the 150' rule is broken almost constantly on busy days. The sad thing is that many people know the rule and intend to follow it. But they can't judge the distance and don't know what to do if they get too close.

I've heard people say if you can read the numbers you're too close. Is that true? Does average vision mean you can't read 3" numbers at 150 feet. Any vision experts out there?

I think the rule should be stated as 50 yards. It's sounds smaller and it's easier to relate to. Imagine your boat is on the 50 yard line, if the other boat isn't pass the goal line you're too close. If Adam Vinatari could kick the ball over the other boat then you can't make a wake.

I don't think everyone really gets the rule either. As I crawled from the end of the Weirs channel to the dock, saw two boats pass within 20 feet of each other, both on plane, both yelling "no wake, 150 feet" to the other. If one has to slow, don't they both have to slow?

[donnamatrix]

Good grief, don't even get me started on this. I would like to be an MP for just one weekend!!! We live in Paugus Bay. On Saturday, two men were getting a PWC ready and into the water. One took it out, the other remained on the dock. The PWC driver "floored" it, causing a huge wake backlash at the dock. I screamed "150 feet, no wake." The fellow on the dock was extremely annoyed with me. I asked if his pal was buying the PWC and he said "No, he's my guest. He doesn't know the rules." I reminded him that ignorance of the law is no excuse. It's his responsibiilty to inform guests of the rules.... I think there are just too many folks carrying the "entitlement chip on their shoulders." After all, it's all about THEM.

[B R]

time for the tubing rant!!!

i too have just come back from 9 days on the lake. besides the 150' rule, who in their right mind takes their kids tubing in Paugus Bay on Saturday before the 4th and yesterday during high boat traffic times???? Yesterday's boat traffic rivaled the 3rd. i saw boats trying to pull kids on tubes in the middle of all that. one guy held up his arms asking me what i was doing. i pointed to the 10 or so boats i was holding up because i was trying to anticipate his move, asking him what he was doing tubing here!!!! i hope he realized how stupid that was after he saw all the traffic. but, probably not, he was already tubing there wasn't he? there isn't room for that when there's a lot of traffic in Paugus. for their own safety, they need to go somewhere else or pick a better time to tube.

then there was the guy who pulled his two kids in between the makers for governors island and the little island (can't remember the name of that island) during "rush hour traffic" yesterday. i couldn't believe it. the man should have his kids taken away from him for being such a moron. did i slow down? of course. but that didn't stop people from passing me and going through the makers while he was doing about 20 mph going in the opposite direction dragging two kids on a tube. unbelievable.

people need to look around them before putting their kids on tubes and weaving in and out of high traffic lanes. it's not safe for anyone.

[Island Girl]

...then there were the several boats who were the give way boats who just zoomed in front of me.

...then there are the people coming out of Minge Cove and much greater than headway speed.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by B R

time for the tubing rant!!! {snip} People need to look around them before putting their kids on tubes and weaving in and out of high traffic lanes. it's not safe for anyone.

Similar thing down here in Alton Bay. By Sandy Pt the bay necks down if one follows the rule re: the black tipped marker. There's often a lot of traffic squeezing into a smaller space (though much larger than the Eagle-Gov I. channel). Yet every year I see water skiers and tubers trying to go past the marker in the midst of a spurt of traffic. When I was a kid we went and skied in places, and at times, where there was no traffic ... if only to save our own skins.

[rant]

My particular rant is how people don't consider the larger picture, re: other boats, when out and about on the lake. If you don't want to come off plane to NW speed then you have to leave space for other boaters to get by. If a port - port passing if prefered then "stay right" and leave enough space for other boaters to pass "you", others and the shore w/o bursting the 150' bubble. Yet time and time again I see people coming down the bay following a shortest distance, straight line course with no consideration of the above. OK when there's no other traffic but when there is .... There's be a lot less weaving and confusion and consternation if more people used "channel discipline" even when not in a designated channel. Phew

[/rant]

[Cal]

My property is 150' deep . I use this as refresher course ocassionally .

I really believe 150' is a lot further than many people realize.

[upthesaukee]

I concur with MeeNMac. basic navigation rules are to keep to the right. Years ago, (80's), seldom did you see someone coming from the Little Mark towards the closed end of Alton Bay who was going down the left side of the bay. It seemed that it was almost keep right was the rule. Coming out, stay fairly close to Echo Point, and coming in, stay well to the west of Echo Point.

Now it is sometimes almost comical to see the line up of 4 or 5 or 6 or more boats across the bay heading in or out. And to think that NASCAR gets excited over racing 3 abreast!!!!!!!

bottom line, be defensive out there, because it seems the other guy's attitude seems to be "get outta my way".

Oh, new pet peeve: Parked at the end of a dock in wolfeboro on Mon night. came back and someone had untied me, moved my boat all the way down the front of the dock. Like to have seen the person(s). Would like to have let them have a conversation with Wolfeboro's finest.

[ahopper]

Is the 150' rule necessary??

I grew up boating on Winnipesaukee and recently had an experience boating in Florida where they don't have a 150' rule. Boat traffic seems to flow just fine down there?

I think it's possible for boats to safely pass within 50' of each other.

What do you think? Does anyone know the origins of the 150' rule?

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

Similar thing down here in Alton Bay. By Sandy Pt the bay necks down if one follows the rule re: the black tipped marker. There's often a lot of traffic squeezing into a smaller space (though much larger than the Eagle-Gov I. channel). Yet every year I see water skiers and tubers trying to go past the marker in the midst of a spurt of traffic. When I was a kid we went and skied in places, and at times, where there was no traffic ... if only to save our own skins.


[/rant]

Saw someone towing a tube with kids through the channel by Pick Point and the Barber Pole last season on a busy weekend day. Pretty dumb in my opinion.

[DRH]

Originally Posted by Island Girl

...then there are the people coming out of Minge Cove and much greater than headway speed.

We can see Minge Cove from our place, and boats routinely cruise both in and out of the cove in blatant violation of the "No Wake" restriction there. We often watch boats cruise into the cove and wonder how far past the "No Wake" marker they will go before they come down off a plane. Some of them go a good 100' past the marker at high speed, throwing a large wake up against both shores in the cove. Of course, everyone's on good behavior when the Marine Patrol is within view. It shouldn't take the presence of law enforcement officers for people to do the right thing but, sadly, it often does.

[jrc]

Originally Posted by ahopper

Is the 150' rule necessary??

If everyone had similair sized boats, you could probably change the rule. It would be just trading comfort for traffic flow. But there are some pretty big wakes out there. I'd hate to be in a canoe when a 35' Carver passes on plane 25' away.

The 150' rule isn't perfect. Sometimes all the coming on and off plane seems to create more trouble than it prevents.

[John A. Birdsall]

Now that I made that title, its also a rule to drive to the right of the solid yellow line. The rule of 150' sometimes is hard to judge. I recall a neighbor trying to teach his children this distance put a bottle (plastic) out 150' from shore to mark starting point for sking. He got a ticket for coming within 150' of the bottle. How many places on the lake is 150' or more deep? and is their any sunken boats down their within 150' of surface?

[madrasahs]

Originally Posted by ahopper

Is the 150' rule necessary??

I grew up boating on Winnipesaukee and recently had an experience boating in Florida where they don't have a 150' rule. Boat traffic seems to flow just fine down there?

I think it's possible for boats to safely pass within 50' of each other.

What do you think? Does anyone know the origins of the 150' rule?

First: Florida has a miserable boating-safety record -- maybe the worst in the US. If you're tuned-in to a channel, you can guess part of the reason.

Second: As a defender of Big Boats, you don't have the scary experience of being passed (from in front or back) while in "lesser" boats -- at 50 feet.

One hundred and fifty feet is twice the length of the required waterski tow-rope so, theoretically, two skiers can't collide with one another. (Although we kids probably could have found a way to do it).

One hundred and fifty feet is also a handy number for Jet-Skis, who must stay 600' from shore. (Or was it 300-feet? -- you can't tell most of the time).

The MPs should call it "The Rule of 75s". (Ski-rope length X 2 and Ski-rope length X 8).

[Skip]

Originally Posted by madrasahs

First: Florida has a miserable boating-safety record -- maybe the worst in the US.

Nope,

Not even close....

Latest figures available show the Florida fatality rate constant at about 5 deaths per 100,000 boats. Doesn't even come close to Alaska's death rate of 32 per 100,000. The death rate is higher in a number of other States, including 12 per 100,000 in Arkansas, or 10 per 100,000 in Texas.

By the way, (notwithstanding a handful of highly sensationalized stories)New Hampshire's death rate averages about 3 per 100,000 over the last decade. Nothing to be proud about (any death is one too many) but substantially safer then costantly portrayed by some!

[B R]

Originally Posted by Skip

Latest figures available show the Florida fatality rate constant at about 5 deaths per 100,000 boats. Doesn't even come close to Alaska's death rate of 32 per 100,000. The death rate is higher in a number of other States, including 12 per 100,000 in Arkansas, or 10 per 100,000 in Texas.

By the way, (notwithstanding a handful of highly sensationalized stories)New Hampshire's death rate averages about 3 per 100,000 over the last decade. Nothing to be proud about (any death is one too many) but substantially safer then costantly portrayed by some!

skip,

thanks for keeping us up to date with stats. it is much appreciated.

i think your comparison on a per thousand basis is more helpful than other, possibly intentionally mis-leading numbers.

thanks

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by ahopper

Is the 150' rule necessary??

I grew up boating on Winnipesaukee and recently had an experience boating in Florida where they don't have a 150' rule. Boat traffic seems to flow just fine down there?

I think it's possible for boats to safely pass within 50' of each other.

What do you think? Does anyone know the origins of the 150' rule?

I would agree that there are times when you can safely pass another boat at distances < 150', but there are times when that isn't true as well. The small boat / large boat scenario is one. Another is when the passing boats are not running parallel (or anti-) courses. If someone estimates the intercept a bit off you may not have enough space & time to manuver out of it.

It's the nature of rules to be limiting even in those circumstances when they're not needed, so they will be followed (and be enforcable) when they are needed. That's why "we" should be careful in what we request of our rule makers, and try to actually consider all the viewpoints and make an informed decision of what to ask for. You know the old saying ....

[madrasahs]

Originally Posted by B R

skip, thanks for keeping us up to date with stats. it is much appreciated.

The last Coast Guard stats (page 30, below URL) show Florida as having the worst accident rate, with California and Texas behind. http://www.uscgboating.org/statistic...stics_2002.pdf

Just using boating fatalities distorts the findings, as a single disaster -- or including commercial figures -- can skew the results for a given year. Alaska, for example, suffers an average of 20 fatalities per year among just commercial crabbing vessels. http://www.alaskajournal.com/stories...40712002.shtml

Originally Posted by B R

i think your comparison on a per thousand basis is more helpful than other, possibly intentionally mis-leading numbers. thanks

About half the states don't require registration of non-motorized boats, where these Coast Guard stats come from (the per thousand basis) . New Hampshire has lots of unregistered non-motorized vessels, and about 100,000 registered vessels.

Because New Hampshire even requires registration of 12-foot windsurfers, its stats should indicate a safe watery environment. That being said, New Hampshire has admitted their statistics-collecting is flawed*, as has their FBI felony reporting*.

The "baddest-boater" stats should include "murder in the third-degree" (Manslaughter) figures. Any attorney with "Westlaw" Internet access should be able to bring those stats up for the Forum.

If you peruse the Coast Guard stats, you'll see that February "peaks" for the majority of states in cold-water boating accidents/fatalities. New Hampshire is not included. 'Wonder why?

*Documentation I've posted here twice before.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by madrasahs

Just using boating fatalities distorts the findings, as a single disaster -- or including commercial figures -- can skew the results for a given year.

Thank you Bob!

You have come full circle and finally realized the fallacy of your own perceptions against a certain class of boat. I couldn't have proven my point any better than with your own words in your latest post!

Let me again remind you of your own findings;

Originally Posted by madrasahs

Just using boating fatalities distorts the findings, as a single disaster -- or including commercial figures -- can skew the results for a given year.

See, a little research didn't hurt you.

I know...it's very painstakingly slow on those dial-up connections, but it is a necessary evil if one wants to be taken seriously in a debate.

Perhaps if you ever get up this way again you could spring for broadband..it will open up whole new worlds of opportunities for you (or so say the statistics).

In closing, this extended debate should serve as a warning to readers that statistics must be peoperly employed to bear meaningful fruit. In the case of the so called "off-shore boat", data shows that there are so few accidents and/or fatalities per year within this classification that statistical data is insignificant/meaningless when compared to the classifications of other boats.

The fact of the matter remains that boating is an extremely safe hobby with little chance of you or your loved ones becoming injured or killed when compared to a myriad of other daily activities. All it takes is a little common sense (and a little less prejudice) to enjoy this endeavor to it's maximum.

Skip

[madrasahs]

Fatalities and Manslaughters are not equivalents.

Originally Posted by skip

In the case of the so called "off-shore boat", data shows that there are so few accidents and/or fatalities per year within this classification that statistical data is insignificant/meaningless

Correct. Offshores are hidden within the Coast Guard classification "open motorboats".

Offshores comprise a proportionately very tiny percentage of New Hampshire's numbered and unnumbered boats. (For all the mayhem, that is....)

Check out page 33, though: "Accidents by Boat Length". There is a spike at 36-feet (Littlefield-zone), and a major spike at 40-foot (to 65-foot).

Still, the only access to boating manslaughters is through "Westlaw" subscription, (All trial attorneys use it).

Or...schlepping through the Internet....