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Old 05-04-2021, 10:55 AM   #1
Tyler
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Default Seaplane Base and runway 19 Mile Bay Proposed

FYI, thoughts? See attached link.


https://mcusercontent.com/29ff5285f0...al_minutes.pdf
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Old 05-04-2021, 02:38 PM   #2
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First I've heard of it, but if it will help in keeping the Pier 19 Store + Gas to stay in business then why not?
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Old 05-04-2021, 02:44 PM   #3
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I've not heard of this, but the current seaplane operator was selling his plane when I called asking about a flight last month, and he told me there was a new operator about to start up. I'm guessing this would be him/her and think it's a great idea.

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Old 05-04-2021, 02:50 PM   #4
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Cant see it "Flying". Way to much boat traffic. Winter time the bay is pretty mobbed with bob houses. I would think with the Fire Dept boat and Game Warden boat there EMS response times could be impacted.
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Old 05-04-2021, 02:54 PM   #5
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Perhaps I’m missing the market on this, as I’m not involved in aviation. But is the store something that would attract small aircraft to warrant this? It’s a nice store and all, but are people going to literally fly in to go to it?

And for the fuel aspect, could the gas dock even handle aircraft? I don’t know much about aviation, but I would have thought it would be different fuel than for boats, and I don’t think the store has more than one tank, but may be wrong.

Last, I don’t see the concept of using the town pier as feasible. Folks already complain that the town pier is filled and hard to use. Adding planes doesn’t seem to make much sense to me. It also seems part of the concept might be to permit a plane ride business to keep a plane at the town dock? The boats of town residents can’t be docked overnight; at the pier. I don’t see how a plane should be treated differently. And the “alternative” option of building an extension of the existing gas dock is a dead end—the store doesn’t own the docks, the Pier 19 condo association does. Not to mention all of the state shoreland permit issues that this would raise.

I would be interested to hear what folks in the aviation community think about this, particularly for the winter. Would there be a use for a second winter runway, in addition to Alton? And 19 mile bay has a lot of ice fishing activity. How is that going to work?

Seems to me this concept raises way more questions than have been contemplated, and that this was all attempted to be done under the radar. The board of selectmen are right that this needs to be noticed for public hearing before the town agrees to anything on this.
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Old 05-04-2021, 03:06 PM   #6
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With all the hell raised over the noise generated from Camp Belknap I can only imagine how mental the nearby residents will get with the sound of planes landing and taking off.

Might help Mr. Owen's chickens lay eggs though
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Old 05-04-2021, 03:37 PM   #7
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Default Epic just registered as a business on April 21

I don't know what to make of it. From the few things I found online, couldn't tell whether Epic is doing scenic tours with its own plane(s) or the airport is intended for use of private planes.

Owner is Thomas Wood

Phone is 603-724-9104


https://www.nhcompanyregistry.com/co...ne-adventures/

https://www.nhcompanyregistry.com/co...england-llc-2/

https://airnav.com/airport/NH64

Their Instagram has a few photos of planes, no explanation or any narrative:
ID:: epic_seaplane_adventures
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Old 05-04-2021, 04:38 PM   #8
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I guess i'll be the guy that throws the concerns back at the forum.
Boat traffic: There isn't any at the Alton runway? During the summer it is always full of boats, I have actually seen 1 plane in the many years that I have been on the lake land in Alton Bay in the summer.
Bob Houses: Have you seen Alton during a cold winter? It's packed with fisherman and houses (and campers). They just mark the runway and hope that people don't fish on it.
As for the gas and such, not sure why they would need/want gas there. Alton, and Paugus Bay Water runway doesn't have gas (that I know of). So it would be interesting to see what comes of that aspect.
Just something to think about though.
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Old 05-04-2021, 05:39 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by MAXUM View Post
With all the hell raised over the noise generated from Camp Belknap I can only imagine how mental the nearby residents will get with the sound of planes landing and taking off.

Might help Mr. Owen's chickens lay eggs though
Here on Winnisquam I listen to planes each Sunday morning practicing touching down and taking off. Actually we enjoy watching them

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Old 05-05-2021, 09:06 AM   #10
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A few things to note:

1) the certificate is for a private base/runway, as opposed to a public facility and this will require all fly in pilots to obtain prior permission to land. This will minimize traffic.

2) the nh review only looks at the plan/site with regard to approach, departure, and runway size and fixed obstructions. It does not evaluate things like boat traffic, noise, wildlife habitat. Things outside their review parameters are the responsibility of other state/local agencies.

3) it is the responsibility of the pilot of a float plane to determine safe landing conditions and to make that determination taking into account boat traffic. The plane must get out of the way of the boat, not the other way around unless it is an emergency. If the pilot operates unsafely he/she can get their ticket pulled. (In this age of cell phones unsafe operation is pretty easy to document. If only 1 plane is using the base the landing/takeoff may be slightly delayed but the boat traffic Iíve observed in the bay isnít significant enough to prevent safe operation.

4) The FAA has final review/say and is the agency that issues the final operational permit.

That said, I donít like the idea. I think waterfront residents on the mainland & Farm & Chase Islands will be unfairly burdened with a tremendous amount of noise. Seaplane takeoffs at 100% throttle are very loud.

I think there is the potential for damage & injury from prop wash for the boats and people at the Pier 19 Association especially if the loading/parking dock ends up as a new pier off of the existing gas dock (which I believe is owned by the store, not the Association.) However, the store is a member of the Association and must be subject to the terms of the Association documents which may not allow the operation. The state may also not allow the installation of a new dock.

I canít see the town allowing the use of the public dock for commercial purposes plus, the overhang of the float plane wing could interfere with truck/ambulance access to the fire boat.

There is also the question of the Loon population in the bay. While boats, even at high speed, can quickly maneuver to avoid them an airplane on approach/landing/takeoff doesnít have that luxury.

My hope is that residents of 19 Mile Bay attend the town meetings on the subject to let their voices be heard and that others concerned voice their opinions to the FAA and other state agencies that may be involved in the final decision.


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Old 05-06-2021, 03:23 PM   #11
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Default Not very intrusive

As a (former) pilot, I'm amazed at some of the comments and negativity here. Yes, a plane makes some noise on take-off, but not more than many boats. The difference is, in a few seconds, at 80 mph the plane is gone. At 35 MPH the boat noise is there for a long time. Landing at idle throttle, hardly any noise. No wake, no erosion, no chewing up the milfoil, etc. etc. With all the McMansions around the ;lake, I'm surprised nobody has a helicopter. There's a sweet sound for you.

Just think, somebody could come along and start a wake-surfing school, doing donuts in the bay, 3 foot wakes, playing a 4000 watt stereo all day, etc. etc.

After a couple of days, you won't even be aware of a seaplane in the area.
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Old 05-06-2021, 04:16 PM   #12
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As a (former) pilot, I'm amazed at some of the comments and negativity here. Yes, a plane makes some noise on take-off, but not more than many boats. The difference is, in a few seconds, at 80 mph the plane is gone. At 35 MPH the boat noise is there for a long time. Landing at idle throttle, hardly any noise. No wake, no erosion, no chewing up the milfoil, etc. etc. With all the McMansions around the ;lake, I'm surprised nobody has a helicopter. There's a sweet sound for you.

Just think, somebody could come along and start a wake-surfing school, doing donuts in the bay, 3 foot wakes, playing a 4000 watt stereo all day, etc. etc.

After a couple of days, you won't even be aware of a seaplane in the area.
When a plane is in the water it has to abide by the boating laws as it is considered a boat until in the air. So tell me when a plane is doing 80MPH while still in the water at takeoff how is this legal when the speed limit for boats is 45MPH?
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Old 05-06-2021, 04:55 PM   #13
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When a plane is in the water it has to abide by the boating laws as it is considered a boat until in the air. So tell me when a plane is doing 80MPH while still in the water at takeoff how is this legal when the speed limit for boats is 45MPH?
Speed limit does not apply to a float plane. The same goes for a no wake zone. A float plane doesn’t have to abide by a no wake zone.

https://law.justia.com/codes/new-ham...ction270-13-a/
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Old 05-06-2021, 05:26 PM   #14
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Speed limit does not apply to a float plane. The same goes for a no wake zone. A float plane doesn’t have to abide by a no wake zone.

https://law.justia.com/codes/new-ham...ction270-13-a/
Thanks, that is what I thought but could not find the law/code stating that.
I see you takeoff from mirror lake on occasion, pretty cool.
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Old 05-06-2021, 06:13 PM   #15
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Like RBG, I don't quite get the logic. Lots of boat traffic. Plus, why there? It's not any sort of destination, and there are other nearby places with much less potential conflict, such as Mirror Lake, as mentioned
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Old 05-06-2021, 06:31 PM   #16
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Like RBG, I don't quite get the logic. Lots of boat traffic. Plus, why there? It's not any sort of destination, and there are other nearby places with much less potential conflict, such as Mirror Lake, as mentioned
The store owner wants to partner with epic seaplane adventures and run a scenic airplane tours business from this location is my understanding.
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Old 05-06-2021, 08:21 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Descant View Post
As a (former) pilot, I'm amazed at some of the comments and negativity here. Yes, a plane makes some noise on take-off, but not more than many boats. The difference is, in a few seconds, at 80 mph the plane is gone. At 35 MPH the boat noise is there for a long time. Landing at idle throttle, hardly any noise. No wake, no erosion, no chewing up the milfoil, etc. etc. With all the McMansions around the ;lake, I'm surprised nobody has a helicopter. There's a sweet sound for you.

Just think, somebody could come along and start a wake-surfing school, doing donuts in the bay, 3 foot wakes, playing a 4000 watt stereo all day, etc. etc.

After a couple of days, you won't even be aware of a seaplane in the area.
I agree, and about the helicopters, there's a few that I know of in the Alton area. I can think of 3 houses off the top of my head. They buzz the Broads often.
If it is truely just for a private plane, than more than likely it will only be for 1 plane? My friend lives on a small pond that has TONs of wake surfing boats that are always out on the pond, and a sea plane that takes off and lands at least every night for a short flight around. They never have any issues with "sharing" the water with the plane.
People need to stop worrying about change of things they are not used.
As for the docking at those docks, ok, I'm interested in that aspect of how that works. I don't know much about that area and the docks. But as for the "noise" and the "traffic" that's not an issue.
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Old 05-06-2021, 09:40 PM   #18
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With all the McMansions around the ;lake, I'm surprised nobody has a helicopter. There's a sweet sound for you.
Last August, this is how a potential boat buyer made his way to Shep Brown's to take a boat for a test ride.
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Old 05-07-2021, 02:29 AM   #19
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Last August, this is how a potential boat buyer made his way to Shep Brown's to take a boat for a test ride.
That emblem is the crest for Porsche automobiles. I'd like one, but I own two!

As for boat traffic, Dr. Libby flew a bigger floatplane out of the same area.

Although they can be moored for short periods, a floatplane would be happiest kept at a wooden RAMP. The gasoline hose would need to be long enough to reach the floatplane's wings.
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Old 05-07-2021, 08:44 AM   #20
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That emblem is the crest for Porsche automobiles. I'd like one, but I own two!

As for boat traffic, Dr. Libby flew a bigger floatplane out of the same area.

Although they can be moored for short periods, a floatplane would be happiest kept at a wooden RAMP. The gasoline hose would need to be long enough to reach the floatplane's wings.
The helicopter is a Robinson R44. No idea why there is a Porsche emblem on it.
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Old 05-07-2021, 09:02 AM   #21
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Tough to negotiate a discount when you arrive via chopper
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Old 05-07-2021, 10:44 AM   #22
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I wonder if he will offer instruction there? I would sure like to add water wings to my cert someday. Can't think of a more fun and convenient place to do it.
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Old 05-07-2021, 06:49 PM   #23
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The store owner wants to partner with epic seaplane adventures and run a scenic airplane tours business from this location is my understanding.
That is exactly their plan.
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Old 05-07-2021, 07:00 PM   #24
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I guess i'll be the guy that throws the concerns back at the forum.
Boat traffic: There isn't any at the Alton runway? During the summer it is always full of boats, I have actually seen 1 plane in the many years that I have been on the lake land in Alton Bay in the summer.
Bob Houses: Have you seen Alton during a cold winter? It's packed with fisherman and houses (and campers). They just mark the runway and hope that people don't fish on it.
As for the gas and such, not sure why they would need/want gas there. Alton, and Paugus Bay Water runway doesn't have gas (that I know of). So it would be interesting to see what comes of that aspect.
Just something to think about though.
The width of Alton Bay is much greater than Nineteen Mile Bay. I can't see the town ever approving the use of Union Wharf. That being said, planes will now need to use one of the gas dock slips at the store. In order for that to be permitted, an L shaped extension needs to be added to the current slip at the gas dock. It will have to be installed along the shoreline, parallel to Route 109. I don't think any plane landing in Alton Bay comes that close to docked boats or a county road.
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Old 05-07-2021, 09:05 PM   #25
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The width of Alton Bay is much greater than Nineteen Mile Bay. I can't see the town ever approving the use of Union Wharf. That being said, planes will now need to use one of the gas dock slips at the store. In order for that to be permitted, an L shaped extension needs to be added to the current slip at the gas dock. It will have to be installed along the shoreline, parallel to Route 109. I don't think any plane landing in Alton Bay comes that close to docked boats or a county road.
This is exactly why this proposal needs to be disclosed to the public, in detail, and addressed at a public hearing. Instead, the proponents tried to get the town to approve an entirely ambiguous proposal without any input from town residents that are directly impacted, and without having an actual plan in place that could be properly considered by the town and its residents. By acknowledging that this needs to go to a public hearing, the board of selectmen appears to understand that this will be a significant issue to not only the town residents that own docks at Pier 19, but all residents that own property around or that use Pier 19.
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Old 05-08-2021, 07:18 AM   #26
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The width of Alton Bay is much greater than Nineteen Mile Bay. I don't think any plane landing in Alton Bay comes that close to docked boats or a county road.
I'll agree to disagree on that one. The area around the Gazebo is pretty narrow and has a ton of traffic right next to houses. And yes, I have been there in the summer when a sea plane lands there.
Like I said, the issue I see is the docking, and I did state I know nothing about that part over there.
But the issue with the noise and such I just don't see an issue. There's bigger issues around to worry about than a few seconds of a take off.
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Old 05-08-2021, 08:06 AM   #27
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I don't have a problem with the proposed business, the problem I have is the store owner is trying to get the town to modify a town wharf which is owned by the residents of Tuftonboro to accommodate her business without any input from the towns taxpayers. It appears the selectmen to their credit recognize that so we will see what happens going forward.

The store owner has the option of going through the permit process with the state to put an extension on her dock that she owns. This IMO makes much more sense but will obviously take some time and considerable cost to her. Not sure what the condo dock association members think of that idea, time will tell.
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Old 05-08-2021, 10:12 AM   #28
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I don't have a problem with the proposed business, the problem I have is the store owner is trying to get the town to modify a town wharf which is owned by the residents of Tuftonboro to accommodate her business without any input from the towns taxpayers. It appears the selectmen to their credit recognize that so we will see what happens going forward.

The store owner has the option of going through the permit process with the state to put an extension on her dock that she owns. This IMO makes much more sense but will obviously take some time and considerable cost to her. Not sure what the condo dock association members think of that idea, time will tell.
Exactly. The whole thing has this whiff of the proponents asserting it's not really going to make a difference to anybody, when, obviously, airplanes landing while make a significant difference to many
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Old 05-08-2021, 10:40 AM   #29
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I can imagine the same type of uproar occurred when the Weirs Seaplane Base was established many decades ago. And as far as I know, public docks are leased to private enterprises in several towns around the lake, so itís not unprecedented.
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Old 05-08-2021, 10:58 AM   #30
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I can imagine the same type of uproar occurred when the Weirs Seaplane Base was established many decades ago. And as far as I know, public docks are leased to private enterprises in several towns around the lake, so it’s not unprecedented.
You are entitled to your opinion, so are those opposed to this. I am only opposed to the use of Union Wharf for this business. As far as I know the store owner or the scenic airplane tours business, epic seaplane adventures has not asked the town to lease space at Union Wharf. From the video I watched of the selectmen's work session on 4/26/2021 where the owner and yourself asked the town to modify the wharf there was never a mention of leasing space for this private enterprise. Perhaps you have info to the contrary.
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Old 05-08-2021, 11:43 AM   #31
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You are entitled to your opinion, so are those opposed to this. I am only opposed to the use of Union Wharf for this business. As far as I know the store owner or the scenic airplane tours business, epic seaplane adventures has not asked the town to lease space at Union Wharf. From the video I watched of the selectmen's work session on 4/26/2021 where the owner and yourself asked the town to modify the wharf there was never a mention of leasing space for this private enterprise. Perhaps you have info to the contrary.
I have no dog in this fight, but simply stated a fact that public docks are leased out to private businesses. I agree that everything should be above board. I have nothing to do with this business.
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Old 05-08-2021, 01:09 PM   #32
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I have no dog in this fight, but simply stated a fact that public docks are leased out to private businesses. I agree that everything should be above board. I have nothing to do with this business.
I agree with what you said about public dock leasing, no question, just do not think it is a good idea for this particular wharf.
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Old 05-09-2021, 06:34 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy View Post
A few things to note:

1) the certificate is for a private base/runway, as opposed to a public facility and this will require all fly in pilots to obtain prior permission to land. This will minimize traffic.

2) the nh review only looks at the plan/site with regard to approach, departure, and runway size and fixed obstructions. It does not evaluate things like boat traffic, noise, wildlife habitat. Things outside their review parameters are the responsibility of other state/local agencies.

3) it is the responsibility of the pilot of a float plane to determine safe landing conditions and to make that determination taking into account boat traffic. The plane must get out of the way of the boat, not the other way around unless it is an emergency. If the pilot operates unsafely he/she can get their ticket pulled. (In this age of cell phones unsafe operation is pretty easy to document. If only 1 plane is using the base the landing/takeoff may be slightly delayed but the boat traffic Iíve observed in the bay isnít significant enough to prevent safe operation.

4) The FAA has final review/say and is the agency that issues the final operational permit.

That said, I donít like the idea. I think waterfront residents on the mainland & Farm & Chase Islands will be unfairly burdened with a tremendous amount of noise. Seaplane takeoffs at 100% throttle are very loud.

I think there is the potential for damage & injury from prop wash for the boats and people at the Pier 19 Association especially if the loading/parking dock ends up as a new pier off of the existing gas dock (which I believe is owned by the store, not the Association.) However, the store is a member of the Association and must be subject to the terms of the Association documents which may not allow the operation. The state may also not allow the installation of a new dock.

I canít see the town allowing the use of the public dock for commercial purposes plus, the overhang of the float plane wing could interfere with truck/ambulance access to the fire boat.

There is also the question of the Loon population in the bay. While boats, even at high speed, can quickly maneuver to avoid them an airplane on approach/landing/takeoff doesnít have that luxury.

My hope is that residents of 19 Mile Bay attend the town meetings on the subject to let their voices be heard and that others concerned voice their opinions to the FAA and other state agencies that may be involved in the final decision.


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100% agree with your take. We all can't let this pass under the radar.
owenoutdoors is offline   Reply With Quote
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