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Old 06-24-2022, 01:29 PM   #101
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Default Not necessarily

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Drove through WAM for the first time the other day. I have to say it looks like a shanty town with all those gazebos. Quite disgusting and depressing if you ask me. Do people camp in those things? Skid Row is great description for it. Just my opinion.
I docked at WAM for several years. Most of the dock areas that had cabana space behind the docks were home to cruisers for the most part. The cabanas were used for some storage, but mainly for sitting off the boat to eat and entertain.

The one thing I can say is that the areas were not like a shanty town. The areas around them were always neat. On more than one occasion, i did visit with friends at the marina who had a cabana and found it nice to get away from the bugs or out of the rain.

Obviously, your opinion is far different from mine. I don't think you will find many people who would spend $200 per linear foot to dock their boat, ie, 35' boat = $7000.

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Old 06-24-2022, 02:28 PM   #102
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Well, you know what they say, one man’s trash is another man’s treasure.
If I had a cruiser boat all my entertaining would be on the boat. Not in some shanty makeshift poor man’s vacation home! And as far as $200 a linear foot, that means nothing. There are plenty of folks with more money than brains on the lake. This whole fiasco is gonna make a great movie. I can only hope they film it in the shanty town. That would be amazing.
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Old 06-25-2022, 07:44 AM   #103
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That is absolutely disgusting.
My comment about sleeping in the cabanas was that I believe they are not supposed to per the town of Alton. Much like some of the campgrounds can’t have anyone year round.
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Old 06-25-2022, 09:58 PM   #104
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I have one of the Cabana slips at WAM and I personally think it's the absolute best setup of any marina on the lake. I have a 16 x 12 deck right behind my slip with a 12 x 12 Cabana on it, place to grill and parking spot immediately behind it, nice furnishings, cable TV, WiFi, full sized fridge, all with views of the channel and My Major. We absolutely love it.

It's just a gorgeous spot to relax and watch the boats go by when my family isn't out on the water. It's also really nice to have when a quick shower comes through. Go hang out in the Cabana and wait for it to pass, then head back out. All of our Cabana neighbors are wonderful families, always people milling about, having drinks and sharing laughs.
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Old 06-26-2022, 11:54 AM   #105
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Well, you know what they say, one man’s trash is another man’s treasure.
If I had a cruiser boat all my entertaining would be on the boat. Not in some shanty makeshift poor man’s vacation home! And as far as $200 a linear foot, that means nothing. There are plenty of folks with more money than brains on the lake. This whole fiasco is gonna make a great movie. I can only hope they film it in the shanty town. That would be amazing.
So if people don't do their lake experience exactly like you, what they are doing is disgusting? Strange outlook, kind of narrow view of things IMO.
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Old 06-26-2022, 11:57 AM   #106
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I have one of the Cabana slips at WAM and I personally think it's the absolute best setup of any marina on the lake. I have a 16 x 12 deck right behind my slip with a 12 x 12 Cabana on it, place to grill and parking spot immediately behind it, nice furnishings, cable TV, WiFi, full sized fridge, all with views of the channel and My Major. We absolutely love it.

It's just a gorgeous spot to relax and watch the boats go by when my family isn't out on the water. It's also really nice to have when a quick shower comes through. Go hang out in the Cabana and wait for it to pass, then head back out. All of our Cabana neighbors are wonderful families, always people milling about, having drinks and sharing laughs.
That looks like a really great setup.
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Old 07-06-2022, 12:19 PM   #107
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That looks like a really great setup.
Interesting to see the Gilford Chief of Police referenced multiple times in this lawsuit but not being named personally. If the allegations are true then it's a bit more than disconcerting that he was on paid administrative leave for 4 months https://dockets.justia.com/docket/ne...2cv00240/59373


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Old 07-06-2022, 01:17 PM   #108
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Drove through WAM for the first time the other day. I have to say it looks like a shanty town with all those gazebos. Quite disgusting and depressing if you ask me. Do people camp in those things? Skid Row is great description for it. Just my opinion.
I havent been in a couple of years, but in the past we were regulars there, used the launch ramp for day trips.

The gazebos you reference were very inconsistent, some were kept very neat and the people appeared very quiet and friendly, while others kinda fit your description and had loud and rowdy characters hanging out.

But then its the same at the sand bars and any town dock and any waterfront restaurant. Winnipesaukee attracts the whole spectrum.

In the last 20 years I would not keep a boat on wet slip, too many problems with the bottom getting nasty, and the boat always dirty from being out in the open so we trailered.

The last couple of years we have been at Paugas Bay Marina in the valet program and its so much better than a wet slip. Their location is great and they have been outstanding to work with.

I still miss having the boat at home to clean and do maintenance, but dont miss having to drive extra miles to find a ramp and deal with the ramp traffic and parking challenges.

And as far as WAM, I would find it hard to go back knowing what was going on there. Sorry but it would bother me to support such a place until EVERYONE associated with that happened is gone and its under new ownership and management.
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Old 07-06-2022, 01:21 PM   #109
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I have one of the Cabana slips at WAM and I personally think it's the absolute best setup of any marina on the lake. I have a 16 x 12 deck right behind my slip with a 12 x 12 Cabana on it, place to grill and parking spot immediately behind it, nice furnishings, cable TV, WiFi, full sized fridge, all with views of the channel and My Major. We absolutely love it.

It's just a gorgeous spot to relax and watch the boats go by when my family isn't out on the water. It's also really nice to have when a quick shower comes through. Go hang out in the Cabana and wait for it to pass, then head back out. All of our Cabana neighbors are wonderful families, always people milling about, having drinks and sharing laughs.
Looks GREAT, but I dont recall the "tents" down by the ramp looking that nice. Maybe things have changed quite a bit since the pandemic???
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Old 07-06-2022, 03:25 PM   #110
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And as far as WAM, I would find it hard to go back knowing what was going on there. Sorry but it would bother me to support such a place until EVERYONE associated with that happened is gone and its under new ownership and management.
Couldn’t agree more with this statement!

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Old 07-06-2022, 03:28 PM   #111
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Agree completely.
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Old 07-18-2022, 06:51 PM   #112
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From WMUR today
https://www.wmur.com/article/west-al...arges/40644868
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Old 07-18-2022, 07:25 PM   #113
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These scams need to be put away for years!! I hope the victims get all they need for support and therapy and can heal. Coming soon Irwin of west alton.... I hope these two pedophiles pay with everything they have and then some!
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Old 07-18-2022, 08:39 PM   #114
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I had reason to go there once.. Got a tour the whole shooting match. Teenagers were around. Talk about how much "fun' everyone was having. A forum member posted that he knew there was a problem from a summer camp 35 years ago. Hundreds of people around every day all summer and no one thought any the worse of anything? Sometimes we don't see what we don't want to.

In these touchy times I knew I wouldn't return when I drove out. To express thoughts on your perceptions without any specific tales puts you on the wrong side of being"correct". These days no matter what you say someone is offended, so I tend to say little or I'm always carefully choosing my words. I wonder how much goes unmentioned or unnoticed in these politically correct times. I didn't mention anything about it until now.

Much different than my childhood when we were still coming off WWII and getting into Vietnam. As kids we used all the incorrect words all the time and called our best friends the worst ones when we were mad...then we either fought it out or got over it.

Who would think a summer job at an established business in the lakes region could be so impactful?

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Old 07-18-2022, 09:22 PM   #115
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As a child, if I used ''incorrect words'', regardless of the situation, I got the strap and sent to my room without dinner.

Seems my grandparents were not so willing to put up with me being ill-mannered.
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Old 07-18-2022, 09:45 PM   #116
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My mistake respect for elders at home and school.....but running around the neighborhood was a different story.

Think about how incorrect the culture was...."Hop Sing" on Bonanza..... McHale's Navy, Combat, Rat Patrol, Hogan's Heroes.....the norm.
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Old 07-18-2022, 10:00 PM   #117
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Not sure what point you're trying to make.

IMO the good news about it being now, not 40 or 50 years ago, is that the kids will be believed and supported, the criminals will be tried and will go to jail, and no local bigwig or rich uncle or politician will step in to save these hideous piles of you-know-what.
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Old 07-19-2022, 04:51 AM   #118
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I agree. Hopefully the truth will be known. Point is you have to be careful what you say and how you say it all the time. Unfortunately whatever may have happened... went on in plain sight with nothing said by anyone for a long time.
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Old 07-19-2022, 12:35 PM   #119
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These scams need to be put away for years!! I hope the victims get all they need for support and therapy and can heal. Coming soon Irwin of west alton.... I hope these two pedophiles pay with everything they have and then some!
Never happen, Irwin’s has ZERO interest in West Alton.
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Old 07-20-2022, 09:49 AM   #120
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As a child, if I used ''incorrect words'', regardless of the situation, I got the strap and sent to my room without dinner.

Seems my grandparents were not so willing to put up with me being ill-mannered.
God, that horrifying,,,

But its also very telling.

That is not a "teaching moment" thats unquestionable abuse.

Sorry, no child should suffer such inhuman treatment, weather you realize it or not, it scars you for life.

I heard of worse, but not much.

Hopefully such is no longer tolerated in most places. No wonder we have so mange damaged people in our society.

Horrifying,,,
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Old 07-20-2022, 09:58 AM   #121
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Never happen, Irwin’s has ZERO interest in West Alton.
Too bad, its a great opportunity but they would have to do a lot of PR work to clean up the taint this place currently has.

Just thinking about what happened there is sickening,,,

Hopefully someone will buy it, change the name, and turn it into a role model establishment where local kids can get a good summer job and be treated properly and actually have some fun rather than being abused.

I cannot think of a better summer job experience than working at a marina if you are treated properly and decently. I see the kids working at PBM and it looks pretty damn good to me! But they are a truly outstanding outfit. So happy to be there and SOOOOO happy to know I was not funding the horrifying events that were occurring at WAM.
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Old 07-20-2022, 10:05 AM   #122
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went on in plain sight with nothing said by anyone for a long time.
I find that almost as troubling as the fact that this nightmare happened.

I guess thats how some here can talk about the NH that has no problems with violence.
  • Just look the other way and it didnt happen.
  • Dont talk about problems and they wont exist.
  • Its a great place so ignore little things like this.
  • Its not our kids and not our problem,,,

Yup all is well when you compartmentalize things properly.
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Old 07-21-2022, 10:03 PM   #123
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God, that horrifying,,,

But its also very telling.

That is not a "teaching moment" thats unquestionable abuse.

Sorry, no child should suffer such inhuman treatment, weather you realize it or not, it scars you for life.

I heard of worse, but not much.

Hopefully such is no longer tolerated in most places. No wonder we have so mange damaged people in our society.

Horrifying,,,
haha I would have welcomed a strap instead of the standard two by four. Those moments certainly taught us. No “timeouts” or negotiations or “make good choices”. Just do as you’re told because you were told, no explanation necessary or deserved, and if it’s not done fast enough then the consequences will be paid. Much fewer people got screwed up in the old system.


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Old 07-22-2022, 06:23 AM   #124
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haha I would have welcomed a strap instead of the standard two by four. Those moments certainly taught us. No “timeouts” or negotiations or “make good choices”. Just do as you’re told because you were told, no explanation necessary or deserved, and if it’s not done fast enough then the consequences will be paid. Much fewer people got screwed up in the old system.


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This is horrifying.

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Old 07-22-2022, 07:08 AM   #125
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This is horrifying.

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Sadly the victims too often rationalize it as their family was just trying to raise them well, but in reality it was/is violent crime perpetrated behind closed doors and against those who both cannot fight back or speak out about it.

Its a crime and a sickness.

I worked with a genuinely kind person, that told me how he and his multiple brothers were lined up every week and the father picked one of them out to beat the hell out of just as a warning to all of them to keep in line. He said by the age of 16 each of them left home, but carried the scars their whole like. At a funeral service for one of them, the eldest spoke and shared a bit of that dark family history, and how difficult it was to even think about it let alone talk about it and at his advanced age he was only then able to grasp the terrible impact it had on him his whole life. It was hard to listen to, so I cant even imagine what that was like to live through,,,

Beating a child with a strap for incorrectly using a word, or beating them simply as an example, and the gross sexual abuse this thread speaks to is beyond reproach, its inexcusable!


As we both agree, horrifying seems to be the best description for all these such situations. Horrifying,,,
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Old 07-22-2022, 11:07 AM   #126
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Lol The opposite resulted in the safe spaces, no hurt feelings, participation trophy generation.


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Old 07-22-2022, 11:27 AM   #127
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Lol The opposite resulted in the safe spaces, no hurt feelings, participation trophy generation.


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Ummm...you know that there is a lot of space between beating your kids and having zero consequences, right?!

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Old 07-22-2022, 11:44 AM   #128
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I'd a take safe spaces any day over a kid being in 5th grade and lying to his teacher and guidance counselor about how the bruises ended up across his face, knowing full well that if he did tell the truth he'd likely lose his brother and sister to the state's child care services.

I'd also take participation trophies and no hurt feelings over a kid getting whacked with Lincoln Logs, cooking spoons or just generally getting an ass whooping usually while being held down in the process.

I'd suspect that young man would eventually learn that he's not worth experiencing the love that so many of his friends seemed lucky enough to experience and from that, I'd guess he may end up making some incredibly poor choices as time went on because, who really cares anyway?

Yeah, the beatings definitely work, absolutely no mental scars.

I can only imagine what would happen if the individual that has been described above were to work at a place such as WAM.
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Old 07-22-2022, 04:51 PM   #129
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Ummm...you know that there is a lot of space between beating your kids and having zero consequences, right?!

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Ummmmmmmmmm yes I’m aware, Think. I think everybody is. lol


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Old 07-22-2022, 05:02 PM   #130
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I'd a take safe spaces any day over a kid being in 5th grade and lying to his teacher and guidance counselor about how the bruises ended up across his face, knowing full well that if he did tell the truth he'd likely lose his brother and sister to the state's child care services.

I'd also take participation trophies and no hurt feelings over a kid getting whacked with Lincoln Logs, cooking spoons or just generally getting an ass whooping usually while being held down in the process.

I'd suspect that young man would eventually learn that he's not worth experiencing the love that so many of his friends seemed lucky enough to experience and from that, I'd guess he may end up making some incredibly poor choices as time went on because, who really cares anyway?

Yeah, the beatings definitely work, absolutely no mental scars.

I can only imagine what would happen if the individual that has been described above were to work at a place such as WAM.
An elementary school having a “guidance counselor” is a problem in itself. Lincoln Logs and cooking spoons?? Amateur hour, they’d practically be a reward. Mental “scarring” is internally manufactured and then whines about like “stress”. Non-snowflakes choose their own attitude.

Is the implication really that the WAM people can blame their childhood for consciously deciding to do certain acts as adults? That would be a strange outlook.


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Old 07-22-2022, 07:38 PM   #131
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Do elementary schools have guidance counselors?
I know that I had one in my high school upperclassman years as the school felt it necessary to get the best outcome after graduation.

Because I don't think I have ever had bruises...

But to be fair... eating some of the bar of soap I found much worse, I think that may have taken some years off my life.
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Old 07-22-2022, 08:48 PM   #132
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Mr Mercier - perhaps "guidance counselor" isn't the proper term? It's really anyone's guess as to what his role actually was. Could have been that the school called someone in, hard to say for sure. My apologies if that phrasing was misleading.
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Old 07-22-2022, 09:12 PM   #133
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An elementary school having a “guidance counselor” is a problem in itself. Lincoln Logs and cooking spoons?? Amateur hour, they’d practically be a reward. Mental “scarring” is internally manufactured and then whines about like “stress”. Non-snowflakes choose their own attitude.

Is the implication really that the WAM people can blame their childhood for consciously deciding to do certain acts as adults? That would be a strange outlook.


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Well, consider yourself lucky that your whoopings only resulted in a mid double-digit IQ.

My post had absolutely nothing to do with what the offenders at WAM can blame on their childhood. What I outlined in my post was a child who grew up not knowing his self worth. Are you going to need explanation beyond the combination of a low-esteemed youth and a work environment such what was going on at WAM?

What you got growing up was a warming of the ass. What I describe in my previous post is only a smidgen of things you've never experienced yourself throughout your entire childhood.

I had a lot more to say but, it's just not worth it. Your minimizing of the examples in my previous post only goes to show how lucky you were. Be glad about that.
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Old 07-23-2022, 09:33 AM   #134
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Well, consider yourself lucky that your whoopings only resulted in a mid double-digit IQ.

My post had absolutely nothing to do with what the offenders at WAM can blame on their childhood. What I outlined in my post was a child who grew up not knowing his self worth. Are you going to need explanation beyond the combination of a low-esteemed youth and a work environment such what was going on at WAM?

What you got growing up was a warming of the ass. What I describe in my previous post is only a smidgen of things you've never experienced yourself throughout your entire childhood.

I had a lot more to say but, it's just not worth it. Your minimizing of the examples in my previous post only goes to show how lucky you were. Be glad about that.
haha So now you believe I have a low IQ because you disagree with something I said? Typical level of argument from an armchair psychologist fixated on “self esteem.” “Self esteem” by definition is established by oneself, not outside influences.

John, I can empathize with the aftertaste of a bar of soap along with the immediate sensation of pepper on the tongue. lol


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Old 07-23-2022, 05:49 PM   #135
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Lol The opposite resulted in the safe spaces, no hurt feelings, participation trophy generation.


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There is a high correlation between physical abuse in childhood and going on to commit abuse against children and animals in childhood through adulthood. Children who are abused with physical punishments do not grow up to become competent parents.

Regarding guidance counselors, many elementary schools have a psychologist on staff.
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Old 07-23-2022, 06:18 PM   #136
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You mean people that have been physically abused are more often to take on a victim-mentality? And that they may act out to reassert their control?
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Old 07-23-2022, 10:05 PM   #137
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OK. OK! Time for all the amateur Psychologists and Psychiatrists to put down your mouse and post something that is related to WAM, or start your own thread about corporal punishment. Hopefully on a non-Winnipesaukee Forum. Alternatively, get out behind the woodshed and cut a switch.
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Old 07-24-2022, 01:24 AM   #138
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I'm sort of wondering whether the response to the WAM situation is what this is.
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Old 07-24-2022, 08:46 AM   #139
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It’s problematic that some elementary schools have psychologists especially if they’re talking to kids without parental consent. Now I will take Descant’s advice and focus on the great weather and some jet skiing.


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Old 07-24-2022, 09:32 AM   #140
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It’s problematic that some elementary schools have psychologists especially if they’re talking to kids without parental consent. Now I will take Descant’s advice and focus on the great weather and some jet skiing.


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I work in an elementary school and what I find much more problematic than the presence of psychologists is the need some students have for mental health (and other) services coupled with the lack of availability. Blame whoever you want for the need, but in my first hand experience it is very real.

That said, round one of waterskiing was great, round two, with some wakeboarding thrown in, starts now!
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Old 07-24-2022, 09:34 AM   #141
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It’s problematic that some elementary schools have psychologists especially if they’re talking to kids without parental consent.


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Middle Schools and High Schools have school psychologists as well. As a (retired) school psychologist I'd be curious to hear you expound on this "problem".
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Old 07-24-2022, 12:04 PM   #142
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It means that we have a lot more ''damage'' in the shadows of our society than we know about.

I always felt when growing up that my grandparents, no matter how ruthless others thought them to be, were greatly concerned about what would happen should I have to face a Great Recession or war with the restrictions of WWII and not have the mental hardness necessary to cope.
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Old 07-24-2022, 05:22 PM   #143
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Middle Schools and High Schools have school psychologists as well. As a (retired) school psychologist I'd be curious to hear you expound on this "problem".
I would echo what I believe is John’s observation: mental hardness. For hundreds of years no one heard of and there were no such things as school psychologists or “grief counselors.” If someone truly were to need some help in that area, it would be arranged by the family, not the government. “Toughen up, stiff upper lip, ‘sticks and stones,’ ‘walk it off,” were all sensical attitudes for generation after generation of normal Americans before and since the Founding. Now look what’s happened.

It was a great day to be on the lake. Skiing next weekend!


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Old 07-24-2022, 05:57 PM   #144
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Middle Schools and High Schools have school psychologists as well. As a (retired) school psychologist I'd be curious to hear you expound on this "problem".
McDude I have no doubt of your skills and caring as a psychologist. My commentary was on the broader subject. I’ve enjoyed your posts for years.


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Old 07-24-2022, 05:59 PM   #145
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It could be we're noticing more abuse than training.

I was never punished for anything that I knew beforehand that I was going to be punished for should I partake in the action.
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Old 07-24-2022, 08:29 PM   #146
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You mean people that have been physically abused are more often to take on a victim-mentality? And that they may act out to reassert their control?
No. I mean that they conceive of human relationships in terms of pain and cruelty and then go on to imitate what was done to them, perhaps in worse form. Same for cruelty to animals. The evidence is that very early experiences of abuse rather than love change the brain chemistry.
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Old 07-24-2022, 08:39 PM   #147
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It’s problematic that some elementary schools have psychologists especially if they’re talking to kids without parental consent.
I used to be a teacher, K-12. In elementary schools it was obvious in kindergarten and grade 1 which children were already handicapped by negative conditions in their homes, whether abuse, emotional deprivation, physical deprivation, etc. I forget what the protocol was for notifying parents, but I assure you that there are many children in elementary schools who have a great need for emotional support in and outside the classroom. Psychological support is a way to try to level the playing field so that these children can have an equal chance at success in school. School psychologists and social workers try to educate parents about children's emotional and developmental needs and enlist them in creating a healthy home environment. The whole family benefits.
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Old 07-24-2022, 08:57 PM   #148
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I would echo what I believe is John’s observation: mental hardness. For hundreds of years no one heard of and there were no such things as school psychologists or “grief counselors.” If someone truly were to need some help in that area, it would be arranged by the family, not the government.
And then along came Freud, who ruined a perfectly healthy society by discovering some of the reasons why people do the odd things they do and feel as they do. Actually, mental illness was known to the ancient Greeks. It might not be a good idea to extrapolate your personal experience to most people. If it were true that families were arranging psychological help for family members who need it, we would not be the pathological society that we are.

An interesting read is "Love at Goon Park: Harry Harlow and the Science of Affection" https://www.amazon.com/Love-Goon-Par.../dp/046502601X It explains how the parenting style of the early to mid 20th century evolved: lack of understanding in the 19th century of how germs were spread led parents to withhold physical affection from children out of fear of contaminating them with germs. This resulted in a hands-off parenting style that was passed from generation to generation. Your "mental hardness" philosophy is an extension of that historical trend. Harry Harlow's experiments with baby monkeys showed how that parenting style led to severe pathology due to the lack of bonding between parents and children. This was the beginning of attachment science. That's right, psychology is a science.
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Old 07-24-2022, 10:49 PM   #149
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That is fair... but we went through quite a bit when I was young because teachers didn't want to accept that I was an introvert.

We then had to go through it with my nieces and nephews because someone at school placed it in their heads that the terrorist on 9/11 would come for them.

While it is nice that those outside the family are concerned... once the problem is determined, they have to learn to accept it.
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Old 07-26-2022, 06:49 AM   #150
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We then had to go through it with my nieces and nephews because someone at school placed it in their heads that the terrorist on 9/11 would come for them.
In the 1960s it was placed in children's heads that the Russians were coming for us via a nuclear attack from the air. We had regular air raid drills where we hid under our desks. No one thought about the emotional impact on young children of the news that we were going to be killed. I had nightmares about being bombed by the Russians for 30 years. Sadly this reality is being experienced by Ukranian children today.
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Old 07-26-2022, 06:57 AM   #151
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In the 1960s it was placed in children's heads that the Russians were coming for us via a nuclear attack from the air. We had regular air raid drills where we hid under our desks. No one thought about the emotional impact on young children of the news that we were going to be killed. I had nightmares about being bombed by the Russians for 30 years. Sadly this reality is being experienced by Ukranian children today.
I vividly remember those drills as well!! Always wondered what good hiding under a desk would do!

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Old 07-26-2022, 07:01 AM   #152
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In the 1960s it was placed in children's heads that the Russians were coming for us via a nuclear attack from the air. We had regular air raid drills where we hid under our desks. No one thought about the emotional impact on young children of the news that we were going to be killed. I had nightmares about being bombed by the Russians for 30 years. Sadly this reality is being experienced by Ukranian children today.
I went through the same, only my school had a bomb-shelter. I also remember my history and geography books always showed photos of the Soviet Union in black & white. The result was a subliminal indoctrination that those citizens had no color in their lives.
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Old 07-26-2022, 10:46 AM   #153
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On a totally different note, WAM has GREAT bathrooms, cheap fuel, AND free ice pops for the kiddos.

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Old 07-26-2022, 12:08 PM   #154
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On a totally different note, WAM has GREAT bathrooms, cheap fuel, AND free ice pops for the kiddos.

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They could give out free gas and you wont catch me going there! Too much of a "stain" on the map for me and until that stain is fully removed from there (which it is not!) I refuse to support it in any way.

The best thing that could happen to that place is it is sold to highest bidder and the all the proceeds go to the victims...

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Old 07-26-2022, 12:59 PM   #155
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I went through the same, only my school had a bomb-shelter. I also remember my history and geography books always showed photos of the Soviet Union in black & white. The result was a subliminal indoctrination that those citizens had no color in their lives.
And mostly they dont!

But you make a very interesting point about how we are all manipulated from an early age to believe whatever someone wants to think ;-)
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Old 07-26-2022, 01:01 PM   #156
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On a totally different note, WAM has GREAT bathrooms, cheap fuel, AND free ice pops for the kiddos.

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Yes the next owner will get really nice grounds and facilities!

Lets just hope that they are better people,,,
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Old 07-26-2022, 01:03 PM   #157
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They could give out free gas and you wont catch me going there! Too much of a "stain" on the map for me and until that stain is fully removed from there (which it is not!) I refuse to support it in any way.

The best thing that could happen to that place is it is sold to highest bidder and the all the proceeds go to the victims...

Dan
Bravo, well said!
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Old 07-27-2022, 05:38 AM   #158
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On a totally different note, WAM has GREAT bathrooms, cheap fuel, AND free ice pops for the kiddos.

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I do understand how people that keep their boat at WAM remain there due to lack of available slips. I do not understand how anyone not tied to a slip would support them by purchasing cheap gas and wanting anything for the kids from them.

I’m with Dan on this…..completely agree
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Old 07-27-2022, 06:29 AM   #159
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haha So now you believe I have a low IQ because you disagree with something I said? Typical level of argument from an armchair psychologist fixated on “self esteem.” “Self esteem” by definition is established by oneself, not outside influences.
Only thing I believe is that the quality of content in your last few posts is quite low. I am simply responding accordingly.

Again, you are more lucky than you realize with regards to your punishments and continuing to minimize the experiences of others along with your strong opinion of things you know nothing about all comes out as a person with relatively low IQ. :shrug:
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Old 07-27-2022, 06:30 AM   #160
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They could give out free gas and you wont catch me going there! Too much of a "stain" on the map for me and until that stain is fully removed from there (which it is not!) I refuse to support it in any way.

The best thing that could happen to that place is it is sold to highest bidder and the all the proceeds go to the victims...

Dan
My wife said it was a terrible joke, but y'all seem less offended by it then as an opportunity for virtue signaling.

Of course nobody wants to directly support whomever was involved in this situation—it's horrible.

There is the the reality, however, of all the others involved—people who could lose their investments, other owners, the workers themselves, etc.

I'm nowhere near WAM, but if I were I'm not so sure I'd be boycotting them just yet.

I'm not even sure I know enough truth to make that decision at this point.

Does anybody have a confirmed story and participants?

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Old 07-27-2022, 07:01 AM   #161
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My wife said it was a terrible joke, but y'all seem less offended by it then as an opportunity for virtue signaling.

Of course nobody wants to directly support whomever was involved in this situation—it's horrible.

There is the the reality, however, of all the others involved—people who could lose their investments, other owners, the workers themselves, etc.

I'm nowhere near WAM, but if I were I'm not so sure I'd be boycotting them just yet.

I'm not even sure I know enough truth to make that decision at this point.

Does anybody have a confirmed story and participants?

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Unfortunately Think, only the "tip of the iceberg" has been exposed thus far. There will be a LOT more coming out as the investigation continues...

What bothers me the most is how many people closed their eyes to what was going on there. It's sickening as it doesn't just involve the two people you see in the headlines...

The safety of our local children working there should of been a priority and it wasn't!! No one wants to talk about it because it involves kids... Well I call BS on that! Everyone was so concerned and talking about the safety of kids at lake camps when the almighty speed limit debates were going on but now their safety can't be talked about??....Really??

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Old 07-27-2022, 07:28 AM   #162
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Unfortunately Think, only the "tip of the iceberg" has been exposed thus far. There will be a LOT more coming out as the investigation continues...

What bothers me the most is how many people closed their eyes to what was going on there. It's sickening as it doesn't just involve the two people you see in the headlines...

The safety of our local children working there should of been a priority and it wasn't!! No one wants to talk about it because it involves kids... Well I call BS on that! Everyone was so concerned and talking about the safety of kids at lake camps when the almighty speed limit debates were going on but now their safety can't be talked about??....Really??

Dan
Again well said, cant add to this.
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Old 07-27-2022, 07:30 AM   #163
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Unfortunately Think, only the "tip of the iceberg" has been exposed thus far. There will be a LOT more coming out as the investigation continues...

What bothers me the most is how many people closed their eyes to what was going on there. It's sickening as it doesn't just involve the two people you see in the headlines...

The safety of our local children working there should of been a priority and it wasn't!! No one wants to talk about it because it involves kids... Well I call BS on that! Everyone was so concerned and talking about the safety of kids at lake camps when the almighty speed limit debates were going on but now their safety can't be talked about??....Really??

Dan
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good (wo)men to do nothing."

It seems like this applies to sooo many things these days.

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Old 07-27-2022, 07:47 AM   #164
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I'm not even sure I know enough truth to make that decision at this point.

Does anybody have a confirmed story and participants?
Really? You don't think you've seen and heard enough evidence? Do you think the kids are lying?

I don't care if you choose to buy stuff there, that's your choice. But when you say "does anybody have a confirmed story and participants", aren't you suggesting the kids that have come forward are not being truthful?
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Old 07-27-2022, 07:57 AM   #165
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Really? You don't think you've seen and heard enough evidence? Do you think the kids are lying?

I don't care if you choose to buy stuff there, that's your choice. But when you say "does anybody have a confirmed story and participants", aren't you suggesting the kids that have come forward are not being truthful?
Not at all—I'm talking in terms of scope and who was responsible/negligent.

There are a lot of people relying on WAM to remain in business—whether I choose to support that or not (through my spending) would require knowing whom doesn't deserve my support.

For example, if two people are responsible and dozens aren't, that would be much different than a host of leadership AND employees covering up.

I don't know those things at this point.

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Old 07-27-2022, 08:47 AM   #166
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What I think we know, again not convicted in a court of law but enough evidence for me as a citizen, is that one of the owners and the general manager were abusing kids. That's enough for me. I realized others have jobs there and respect your view that you don't want them to be hurt if they were not involved. But I feel like the reward of doing business there goes to the owners and hopefully they will be removed, new ownership will retain the good employees, but in the meantime I'm not going there.
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Old 07-27-2022, 09:44 AM   #167
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Certainly there is a lot to digest here....

This is a no win situation for many people... and I am pretty sure there is more of this scandal to come. How much did the other owners & employees know? Who else may be implicated?

The current employees and customers are no doubt very conflicted about all of the accusations. I cannot imagine what the employees are thinking.. they worked with these people every day. Unfortunately, because there is a lack of slips available on the lake, most customers cannot vote with their wallet and are going to have to stay put.

Next up will be the inevitable bankruptcy filing (to protect whatever assets they can from the lawsuits) and subsequent fire sale that goes with it.

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Old 07-27-2022, 10:39 AM   #168
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Only thing I believe is that the quality of content in your last few posts is quite low. I am simply responding accordingly.

Again, you are more lucky than you realize with regards to your punishments and continuing to minimize the experiences of others along with your strong opinion of things you know nothing about all comes out as a person with relatively low IQ. :shrug:
I can’t influence your internal reaction to someone else’s opinion. I can only only give your opinion of my opinion all the weight that it deserves. I offer no assessment of your, or anyone’’s, IQ.


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Old 07-27-2022, 08:23 PM   #169
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My wife said it was a terrible joke, but y'all seem less offended by it then as an opportunity for virtue signaling.

Of course nobody wants to directly support whomever was involved in this situation—it's horrible.

There is the the reality, however, of all the others involved—people who could lose their investments, other owners, the workers themselves, etc.

I'm nowhere near WAM, but if I were I'm not so sure I'd be boycotting them just yet.

I'm not even sure I know enough truth to make that decision at this point.

Does anybody have a confirmed story and participants?

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Apparently you just don’t get it.
The owners are the problem.
I doubt the general workers are involved in ownership.
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Old 07-27-2022, 10:36 PM   #170
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Apparently you just don’t get it.

The owners are the problem.

I doubt the general workers are involved in ownership.
Apparently.

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Old 07-28-2022, 01:38 PM   #171
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Apparently.

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It would be nice if the former Gilford Police Chief would shed some light on what his alleged involvement was with the former manager.


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Old 07-28-2022, 02:04 PM   #172
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It would be nice if the former Gilford Police Chief would shed some light on what his alleged involvement was with the former manager.
What he did in his time off is NOYB so long as it was legal and consensual.

As far of boycotting WAM: LOL. What other convenient, available options are there?

None.
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Old 07-28-2022, 04:38 PM   #173
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Is the key benign existential indifference? Like Freddie Mercury said... nothing really matters.

We could really roll with it.

Are public officials held to a higher moral standard?.....watch the news it doesn't appear so.
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Old 08-03-2022, 07:08 AM   #174
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Another victim. Sixth suit filed.

“The types of things that were done to Jack, have been occurring at the marina for many years,” the suit says

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...5e0a63dc6.html
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Old 08-04-2022, 10:43 AM   #175
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If you look for statistics on the number of victims of each pedophiles at the CDC you will be stunned. I am sure there are more to come in this case and indeed I would not be surprised if there are other victims from other locations where these two alleged abusers spent time before.

People who abuse youth like this do not belong in society at all. Now we will hear about their rights as defendants, and how they misunderstood etc.
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Old 08-04-2022, 01:13 PM   #176
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If you look for statistics on the number of victims of each pedophiles at the CDC you will be stunned. I am sure there are more to come in this case and indeed I would not be surprised if there are other victims from other locations where these two alleged abusers spent time before.

People who abuse youth like this do not belong in society at all. Now we will hear about their rights as defendants, and how they misunderstood etc.
100% agree, and if found guilty, the wood chipper would be suitable. And if not that, life at hard labor, time to bring back the rock pile and the chain gang as there is no reforming people like this, they simply need to suffer a life of punishment equal to or more than what their victims have and will suffer.

Jails need to be operated as facilities for violent offenders and non-violent criminals. And the ones for violent criminals should not have amenities, they are places of punishment not timeouts!

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Old 08-04-2022, 07:54 PM   #177
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Even pedophiles will admit they can’t be cured….they need to be removed from society….forever.
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Old 08-04-2022, 09:00 PM   #178
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Vermont in the 80s had a model program for sexual offenders run by Dr. Pithers.

Google for details not fit for this forum. Aversive program with high recidivism rates.

I don't know if they still use it...one victim of a reoffender is too many.

It's like when I got bit by a dog and the owner said "he hasn't bit anyone in 3 years".

Thanks a lot time to put that dog down huh?
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Old 08-13-2022, 04:11 PM   #179
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Attn: LoveLakeLife

I apologize for the way I interacted with you in this thread a few weeks ago.

I've sent you a PM that elaborates a bit on why I reacted the way I did and, even though it doesn't excuse my responses, I am still sorry for the way I spoke to you.
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Old 08-13-2022, 04:27 PM   #180
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Richard is an honorable, upstanding guy whom we can all be proud to have as a fellow Forum member. What a nice surprise.


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Old 08-13-2022, 04:45 PM   #181
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Richard is an honorable, upstanding guy whom we can all be proud to have as a fellow Forum member. What a nice surprise.


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I think I've mentioned this elsewhere, but he—along with iShoot, Phantom, 8gv, Garcia, Joey, Descant, and a few others I'm presently spacing on—have all reached out behind the scenes and offered help and/or advice in the past.

It's a pretty awesome community here, for sure.

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Old 08-14-2022, 07:16 AM   #182
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Attn: LoveLakeLife
I apologize for the way I interacted with you in this thread a few weeks ago.
I've sent you a PM that elaborates a bit on why I reacted the way I did and, even though it doesn't excuse my responses, I am still sorry for the way I spoke to you.
Poor Richard, I reread your posts and I don't see any need for an apology. You said LLL has a low IQ. There are different types of intelligence, namely intellectual and social-emotional. The parenting style that LLL advocated shows a low understanding of children's needs. There is now a huge body of research-based knowledge about the aftermath of abuse, going back to at least the 1940s. Come on, we can even see the impact of abuse on dogs!

LLL made the following statements:
  • It’s problematic that some elementary schools have psychologists.
  • “Self esteem” by definition is established by oneself, not outside influences.
  • Mental “scarring” is internally manufactured and then whines about like “stress”. Non-snowflakes choose their own attitude.
  • Much fewer people got screwed up in the old system.

Those statements are factually incorrect and unenlightened. If you think that saying that LLL has a low IQ was rude, fine, but please don't let go of your beliefs about the damage caused by child abuse, because they have been proven by a tremendous amount of research.

If you read between the lines in this thread you might guess that several posters are reacting emotionally to what happened at the marina due to their own experiences of abuse, whether it happened to them, a family member, etc. That's not surprising---the CDC says that at least 1 in 7 U.S. children experiences abuse or neglect each year. That's an epidemic. For every person with views like LLL's who deny the harm caused by abuse, there are a hundred people who know the opposite because they experienced it or witnessed it. Knowing the truth and reacting emotionally when someone denies the reality of what child abuse does to a person right through adulthood needs no apology! I'm sorry you felt obligated to make a public apology. On the contrary, an apology was owed to you.
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Old 08-14-2022, 08:40 AM   #183
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I think you are confusing punishment with abuse.

The Greatest Generation endured the Spanish Flu, the Great Depression (Dust Bowl), and WWII because they were forced to become mentally hard even as children.
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Old 08-14-2022, 08:45 AM   #184
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There's no need to go back over everything. Having a difference of opinion is not the "ok" to start cutting people down. I felt I went too far and that's that.

Its been a challenge to keep a level head about the happenings at WAM. I had a great relationship with John...the laughs, the stories...all erased and I'm gutted knowing how much good he has to offer and still he chose to go another route. "Disappointed" doesn't even scratch the surface.

As far as my thoughts on adults hitting children, it's really not a great idea at all.
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Old 08-14-2022, 08:47 AM   #185
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Sailin, if you read the lines (no need for venturing between them), Richard was not apologizing for his opinion. Neither he nor anyone else should be expected to do so. He was apologizing for his tenor, and I was glad to accept the apology immediately upon reading it. You have your own opinions, as you should, but you imply that everyone should agree with them. That’s where we diverge.


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Old 08-14-2022, 09:20 AM   #186
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Here’s where we’re at in society: Former Facebook exec: "I think we have created tools that are ripping apart the social fabric of how society works. The short-term, dopamine-driven feedback loops we’ve created are destroying how society works. No civil discourse, no cooperation; misinformation, mistruth. You are being programmed

Social media has completely changed the way we interact in society. I was taught that reasonable people can disagree reasonably. Not any more. Increasingly, more and more people (particularly young people) need the instant feedback from “likes” or “comments “ and they fall apart, lose their impulse control, and lash out if they don’t accumulate enough positive responses.
We are doomed unless this ends.
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Old 08-14-2022, 11:20 AM   #187
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Here’s where we’re at in society: Former Facebook exec: "I think we have created tools that are ripping apart the social fabric of how society works. The short-term, dopamine-driven feedback loops we’ve created are destroying how society works. No civil discourse, no cooperation; misinformation, mistruth." You are being programmed. Social media has completely changed the way we interact in society. I was taught that reasonable people can disagree reasonably. Not any more. Increasingly, more and more people (particularly young people) need the instant feedback from “likes” or “comments “ and they fall apart, lose their impulse control, and lash out if they don’t accumulate enough positive responses. We are doomed unless this ends.
I don't disagree with what you've written, but I just want to point out how difficult it is to chose the right response to nefarious actions. Our response is in part generational. As a baby boomer, I was actively taught by my high school and college teachers to respond loudly and decisively to things like the Vietnam War and racism. I believe this was in part due to the passive response of the world, including the United States, to the Holocaust. Once we learned what happened in the Holocaust, we realized that individuals and nations should have intervened forcibly much earlier rather than agreeing to "disagree reasonably." Moral and ethical reasoning was actively taught in high school and college curriculums.

By the 1990s the pendulum swung in the opposite direction toward valuing positive communication and working cooperatively in groups. This was very actively taught in my graduate teacher education program. Suddenly baby boomers who had been taught to "speak truth to power" and stand up for right moral conduct were called out for not playing nicely in the sandbox.

Today there has been an incredible increase in social aggression, including in social media. You quote, "No civil discourse, no cooperation; misinformation, mistruth." The question is, what's the appropriate response when you witness misinformation, misconduct, etc.? While civil discourse and cooperation are noble goals, today people are indicating that they don't want to find common ground with people whose views and conduct they find abhorrent. My personal view is that certain much larger goals, like preserving the planet and preventing the collapse of our democracy, are more important than maintaining peace with your neighbors.

I witnessed an example of this in my own town when one group of citizens waged a successful long, loud battle to achieve an environmental goal while another group---who would have been directly negatively impacted if that campaign had failed---stood by and did nothing, in the interests of keeping the peace. Today the silent ones who benefited from that win (it positively impacted their property values!) probably still think ill of the "strident" campaigners who invested hundreds of hours in the town's future. Don't forget that we are here in this country today because of the actions of a group of strident dissenters 250 years ago!

I don't want to be a passive bystander. Sure, Plan A is to disagree politely. That's easier to do when the issue is whether marijuana should be legalized. It's much harder when the issue is whether climate change is real and caused by humans, or whether Covid-19 is real and dangerous. Then I move to Plan B, which prioritizes the issues and their consequences over keeping the peace with people who spread misinformation. That explains why I might express strong opposition to climate change deniers, pandemic deniers, and abuse deniers who think that having psychologists in schools is a bad thing.

Why is all this related to what happened at the marina? Because sexual predators always pressure their victims to not tell the truth and in past eras, even family members were complicit in hiding the truth to avoid public shame and "keep the peace." Keeping the peace sounds good on the surface but it fails in the case of evil mistruths.

Finally, there is probably a place in society for peace makers and dissenters who confront evil. I guess you can choose which kind of person you want to be. Hopefully both, but it's a difficult balancing act. All of the above is played out in this forum, so the conflicts should come as no surprise.
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Old 08-14-2022, 11:45 AM   #188
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Its been a challenge to keep a level head about the happenings at WAM. I had a great relationship with John...the laughs, the stories...all erased and I'm gutted knowing how much good he has to offer and still he chose to go another route. "Disappointed" doesn't even scratch the surface.
It's very hard to reconcile two opposite things that you know about a person. But sometimes people really are two different people and both sides of them are true.

I once had a college professor who I revered. He went way out of his way to help me personally and professionally and we stayed in contact for decades after I graduated. Years later he committed a sexual crime that turned him into a social outcast. This was totally crushing for me. I had to watch this being played out in the media day after day.

More recently, I had a very positive business relationship with someone
who treated me with total respect and was very helpful to my own client. He was later arrested on multiple accounts of child abuse and child pornography. I was floored when I read about what he had done. When he was arrested, I reflected on the tremendous harm that predators do all across society. Think about all the lost time and money and grief they cause to their victims; the victims' families; their own wife, children, and extended family; judges, lawyers, and jurors; the company they work for and their coworkers; their customers who put their faith in them; and other people they interacted with, like youth groups. It is very hard to understand what goes on in their minds---why they would jeopardize everything they have for these acts.
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Old 08-14-2022, 12:54 PM   #189
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Here’s where we’re at in society: Former Facebook exec: "I think we have created tools that are ripping apart the social fabric of how society works. The short-term, dopamine-driven feedback loops we’ve created are destroying how society works. No civil discourse, no cooperation; misinformation, mistruth. You are being programmed

Social media has completely changed the way we interact in society. I was taught that reasonable people can disagree reasonably. Not any more. Increasingly, more and more people (particularly young people) need the instant feedback from “likes” or “comments “ and they fall apart, lose their impulse control, and lash out if they don’t accumulate enough positive responses.
We are doomed unless this ends.
Social media is just being used as a scapegoat for bad behavior.
I see the same thing everyday in the real world.
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Old 08-14-2022, 01:09 PM   #190
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But that's the whole point...social media is causing the everyday behavior you are talking about.
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Old 08-14-2022, 02:21 PM   #191
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But that's the whole point...social media is causing the everyday behavior you are talking about.
Social media is a large part of the problem, but I first noticed really bad social behaviors at least 25 years ago. Think back to when the F word first became really prevalent on the street. When you first heard about road rage. Etc. Undeniably, the anonymity of the internet allowed uncivil behavior to flourish. People imitate what they see, and with social media people are far more aware of other people's aggression---aggressive people now have an audience of millions.
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Old 08-14-2022, 02:35 PM   #192
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But that's the whole point...social media is causing the everyday behavior you are talking about.
Not from what I see.

Social media doesn't make a 60 year old verbally attack a counter person and get upset when they don't get immediate attention.
Social media doesn't make a 70 year old run the exit only side of a fence after the store is closed and then spend an inordinate amount of time concerned with a discount on an $8 purchase because they know that we all want to go home.

Those are just inherently bad behaviors that stand out because no one in the real world wants to stand up to them and point it out.

The accused, I doubt suspect that a local outcry for their release will be forthcoming should they be convicted.
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Old 08-14-2022, 04:50 PM   #193
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Sailin, calling people “deniers” is half the problem. “Climate change” = weather. Some people disagree and say the world will end in another 6-7 years I think it is.

Believe what you like. Try to persuade others if you like. Don’t delude yourself, though, that everyone gives weight to what you think just because it is you who thinks it. That’s not unique to you, it’s true for everyone.

If you don’t want to be a passive bystander, then don’t be, but don’t expect others to have the same attitude. Don’t think people will be persuaded when you throw out the oblique dig of “you can choose which kind of person you want to be.” No one here is trying to please you, or concerned about what you might think of them. Your internal standards are your own to live by, and are no more valid than anyone else’s.

Your posts are sincere and thought-provoking, but not so much when you embed, whether directly or slyly, needless invective, i.e., the “which type of person” stuff.

What did everyone do on the lake today?!


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Old 08-14-2022, 06:23 PM   #194
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Don’t think people will be persuaded when you throw out the oblique dig of “you can choose which kind of person you want to be.” . . . needless invective, i.e., the “which type of person” stuff.
Where do you see invective in choosing whether you want to be a peace maker or a dissenter? My point was very simple: "There is probably a place in society for peace makers and dissenters." And I added that hopefully we choose to do both. There is no invective implied or intended there.

If I wanted to use invective I might say something like "when you make a statement like 'Climate change = weather' you practically force someone to question your IQ, unless you know something that 98% of the world's scientists don't know." No, wait, a statement of fact isn't really invective. Sorry, bad example.
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Old 08-14-2022, 06:47 PM   #195
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I might have misinterpreted when you used the terms peacemaker and dissenter. If so, my apologies.

Now you’ve taking up the mantle that Richard appropriately abandoned and lowered yourself to the “questioning IQ” gambit.

Yes, I know common sense. The weather is the weather. Weren’t we supposed to be under water or frozen over by now according to “scientists” of the 20th century? One man’s facts are another man’s fallacies. Saying something is a fact doesn’t make it so. Only a few hundred years ago the world was, in fact, flat. Only a few months ago the vaccine, in fact, cured the virus. Which was it, naïveté or gullibility, on the part of the masses who slavishly believed the “scientists”?


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Old 08-14-2022, 07:07 PM   #196
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Only a few months ago the vaccine, in fact, cured the virus. Which was it, naïveté or gullibility, on the part of the masses who slavishly believed the “scientists”?
If you're going to be a Monday Morning Quarterback, you should at least get the facts straight. The scientific community never said the vaccines would cure the virus, and no one ever said they were perfect. They said it would prevent specific strains of virus in large numbers of people and would minimize severity in just about all. They did both of these things.

I have not looked at the numbers in many months, but I'm pretty sure that if you look at COVID deaths, the deceased were disproportionately unvaccinated
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Old 08-14-2022, 07:46 PM   #197
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Climate does not equal weather.

And vaccines do not make people immune.

The climate is a long term pattern, weather is a short term pattern.

Vaccines trick the immune system into believing that the body is being attacked by an infection of the specified pathogen and causes it to build up a defense without ever actually being infected.

Social media has made those a more vigorous a discussion; but those discussions were pretty vigorous before social media existed.

I doubt that social media is making pedophilia more acceptable, or that the accused expects that if convicted social media will come to their defense.
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Old 08-14-2022, 08:42 PM   #198
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I might have misinterpreted when you used the terms peacemaker and dissenter. If so, my apologies. Now you’ve taking up the mantle that Richard appropriately abandoned and lowered yourself to the “questioning IQ” gambit. Yes, I know common sense. The weather is the weather. Weren’t we supposed to be under water or frozen over by now according to “scientists” of the 20th century? One man’s facts are another man’s fallacies. Saying something is a fact doesn’t make it so. Only a few hundred years ago the world was, in fact, flat. Only a few months ago the vaccine, in fact, cured the virus. Which was it, naïveté or gullibility, on the part of the masses who slavishly believed the “scientists”?
Smart people recognize when they are not experts on a topic and they look to experts for information rather than relying on personal opinion and bias when the issue is a question of fact. I would rather rely on people who study something all day every day than on my personal opinion, especially if 98% of experts in a field agree on the issue.

Smart people also take the time to examine the source of their opinion on a topic. Does it come from my reading of reports from experts? From my political beliefs? My religious beliefs? My parents, schooling, friends, news media, the government, personal experience, etc etc.? Not smart people hold firm but unexamined beliefs about issues that relate more to facts than opinions, like flat earthers. You can't really have an opinion on whether the earth is flat. You can have either knowledge or ignorance of that fact. (Or you can pretend you don't know the facts and present untruths because you have some other agenda.)

By those definitions of smart and not smart, you seem to be going out of your way to place yourself in the latter category.
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Old 08-14-2022, 09:01 PM   #199
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More labeling and ad hominem attacks, so regrettable. Now the implication is over smartness and has gone beyond the IQ realm. If you only were to know …..

I hope someday to be so smart that life experience and observation will count for nothing and I’ll just blindly follow the crowd. Until then I’ll pretend to hope against hope that the prediction of 12 years until human extinction, made five years or so ago, is off at least a few months to the good. Then I can enjoy the lake for a few months before the eastern seaboard sinks. Hopefully that’ll happen in the winter. Wait, will winter still be a thing by then?


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Old 08-14-2022, 09:19 PM   #200
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If you're going to be a Monday Morning Quarterback, you should at least get the facts straight. The scientific community never said the vaccines would cure the virus, and no one ever said they were perfect. They said it would prevent specific strains of virus in large numbers of people and would minimize severity in just about all. They did both of these things.

I have not looked at the numbers in many months, but I'm pretty sure that if you look at COVID deaths, the deceased were disproportionately unvaccinated
And here I thought the deceased were disproportionately over 80 and had preexisting health problems,,, or were they disproportionately not members of this forum so they didnt know what the facts are/were/will be, I keep mixing up all the COVID facts as they keep changing based on CDC and the status of politics and the media.

Oh sorry, isnt this thread about another matter,,,
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